My JA on F1 top five F1 drivers of 2017
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Posted By: James Allen  |  25 Dec 2017   |  7:45 am GMT  |  1,112 comments

It is that time of the year again to crystallise all that happened during the F1 season and commit to a top five of drivers for 2017.

It’s always a tough decision and sometimes controversial; fans don’t agree or don’t like the reasons for the positions. That’s all part of the fun of the exercise, to encourage debate.

This year the Number One is not really a question for debate as Lewis Hamilton was truly outstanding, making few mistakes and raising his driving to another level.

But the other four – and the order to put them in – is more of a challenge as there are many factors at play beyond the obvious.

Lewis Hamilton
1. Lewis Hamilton
This was Hamilton’s best season in F1 and it came at the right time, after the anguish of the Rosberg championship in 2016, which he simply could not cope with.

For a champion it is very hard to accept a lesser driver beating you over a season in the same car and Hamilton dealt with it badly.

I bet he wishes he could go back and do 2016 all over again, knowing what he knows now about himself and about Mercedes. But it’s consigned to history and all he can do is win outstandingly for the rest of his career and let those records speak for themselves.

It is very appropriate that he should take the all-time record for pole positions from Michael Schumacher this year, as he is one of the fastest drivers ever in F1.

Mark Webber told me in Sepang that he believes we can now say that Hamilton is the best driver since Senna; better in other words, than Schumacher, who had many advantages in winning his seven titles.

Who knows? But Hamilton is in a good place, especially having worked to overcome difficulties with the set up of the Mercedes in the first half of the season. And with a team-mate whose inconsistency will always undermine a title campaign, he has another exciting year ahead of fighting against Ferrari and Red Bull.

I think he may find the 2018 title harder to win.


2. Max Verstappen
One of the best things about working in F1 for many years is seeing the young talents come into the sport, spotting what they have that marks them out and then watching them develop. As I get older and more experienced I find this arguably the most exciting part of my job.

When Verstappen came in I saw a driver who reminded me of Schumacher in his aggression and self belief. It has taken only three seasons to see that he is a world-beater; afraid of no-one, exceptionally fast, but also exceptionally good at racing.

He will not want to remember 2017 because his car let him down, especially the engine, so many times that it meant he couldn’t compete for the championship.

I think that will turn out to be a blessing in disguise, because he still had a rawness to his risk-taking instinct in close combat situations, which needed some refinement for when he does find himself in a title battle.

He’s a very fast learner and with nothing to lose in races like Sepang and Mexico, he put himself in a position to force the issue and got some useful experience of what the Vettels and Hamiltons of this world will do under pressure.

So while his results don’t justify P2 in any Top 5 of 2017, I have picked him because of what I think he has become this year – look at the way he crushed Ricciardo (one of the fastest F1 drivers) in qualifying – and now we look forward to him putting it all together in the next few years.


3.Sebastian Vettel
A very good season for Sebastian, but not a great one, as he and Ferrari let slip a world championship lead. Five victories and four pole positions was a decent haul after the traumas of the 2016 season, where he seemed to have lost his way with the team.

Vettel will reflect on 2017 as a year where he let his emotions get in the way on a few high profile occasions and it cost him; Baku and Singapore, arguably Mexico as well. Against that, he showed admirable sang froid when things went wrong in Monza and Ferrari were embarrassed not only by Mercedes, but by the Mercedes powered teams.

While other senior figures at Ferrari were throwing colleagues under the bus, Vettel played a strong leadership role. Later in the season when the updated engine let them down, throwing more valuable points away he was calm and statesmanlike, not emotional.

So it’s that lack of calmness at the wheel at times, especially at starts, that Vettel needs to conquer to become world champion again. Jackie Stewart won most of his races in the first few laps of a race during F1’s most dangerous time, because he learned to calm his emotions, while other drivers were wound up at the start. A bit more Jackie would help a lot.


4. Daniel Ricciardo
Daniel always has a ready smile around his lips, which is one of his most endearing features, but it became a bit more strained as this year went on.

Outstanding in 2016, from Spain onwards he found himself being out qualified consistently by his team-mate Verstappen. It was made more bearable by the fact that Verstappen’s car kept letting him down in races, so Daniel had a comfortable margin in the points table. But he is a racer and he knew that the true picture was something else.

It’s hard to fault his performances this season, he drove very well and almost always got the maximum result possible with the equipment at his disposal. He has become expert at taking his chances, both in overtakes and in race management.

But he wants to be world champion and there is a massive road block in his way in the form of the Dutchman, who is still developing and who has signed a massively lucrative contract with the team to the end of 2020, a huge sign of faith from Red Bull in its prodigy.

Daniel’s next moves will define his career, both on and off the track.

5. Esteban Ocon
This may seem a bit controversial to some readers, but Ocon’s performance this year was magnificent. As I said above with regard to Verstappen, it’s wonderful to observe the young talents coming through (Leclerc is another for next season) and with a reliable benchmark in Sergio Perez, we could see the development of a really exciting young Grand Prix driver, who will surely have a say in championships in the future.

With only half a season in a Manor behind him when he started the year, he quickly got onto Perez’ pace and by Montreal was ready to beat him. The summer was traumatic as Force India didn’t get on top of the race management quickly enough and many points were dropped in Baku and Spa in particular as tensions flared. But it was a nice problem to have for the Silverstone team, who revelled in the excitement of turning up every week knowing that they were going to be talked about, going to compete strongly and to enjoy their racing.

By the second half of the season Ocon was beating Perez regularly, which is bang on target for the development you would expect from a really special talent, as we saw with Verstappen for example. Ocon is different driver from Verstappen; he’s more cerebral and has a remarkable finishing record, which speaks of consistency and emotional management.

He probably doesn’t have that very special extra half-a-tenth of pace ultimately, that unique talents like Verstappen have, but he has total self belief and a bulletproof mentality – in the right car I think he will prove capable of being a champion in future.

But let’s wait and see whether he continues that impressive development curve in 2018.

I suspect that if he does, he could find himself in a Mercedes in 2019.

What did you make of these rankings? Do you have a different order, or different drivers? Leave your comments below

Season’s Greetings to all readers of JA on F1. Thanks for your support during 2017 and I look forward to engaging with you all in 2018.

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1112 comments

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1

I think I’d have Alonso in my top 5

2

Great list. Hamilton is the obvious #1 driver on the grid, for the eloquent reasons proffered. The rest of the top five are interchangeable IMHO !!!

3

Just one objection to the piece. Hamilton has been outstanding for the most part this year, simply brilliant over the latter half of the season but...

Schumacher had many advantages when winning his titles?

He never once had a car as dominant as Lewis had during 2014-16. Even this year it wasn't shabby!!

I well remember this site stating in 2013, that whoever had the best PU at the start of 2014 was likely to dominate for years to come.

4

I beg to differ, Herowassenna

Schumacher had the Ferrari car in 2002 by which he won the WDC with 6 races remaining. That year, Schumacher finished 1st or 2nd in all 17 races except in Malaysia, where he placed 3rd. Schumaher won a then record 11 races out of a possible 17. if his #2 driver in 2002 ( Barrichello) was half as good as Rosberg, Ferrari would have set records that would never have been eclipsed. That is domination similar if not greater than the Mercedes cars of 2014 thru 2016.

5

Alonso? Nothing to be impressed of since Renault era.
Almost ...up there since then, but nowhere lately. Just talk.
Interesting postings, the four musketeers count for close to 45-50%. Lewis.
James, difficult to sort out the best of them.
I would pick Max and Ricci for the first two.

6

Alonso has the talent but his lack of strategic choices have caused him to be where he is. F1 isn't only about talent. On that basis he doesn't deserve a top #5 mention.

But Vettel #3? How does someone with the best car, unchallenged team leader status, healthy lead in the championship mid way through the season, ends up losing it, and end up 3rd overall?

7

I would never put anybody driving the best car any higher than third. There's always at least three drivers out-driving their car who should rank higher.

8

Why? Fernando is luck to have made top 10.

9

Alonso performed miracles in 2017.

10

Was quite impressed with his drive at Indy.

11

@ laguna Seca....are you aware that the editorial team at highly esteemed journal Motorsport gave Alonso the No.1 guernsey for '17. They awarded Hamilton with second place second place and Ricciardo third. Ocon and Verstappen made up the top five.I can live with that ranking.

12

Kenneth, I'd probably have Lewis first because he was superb this year under pressure from Vettel, but Alonso, Verstappen and Ricciardo all did superb throughout the year and would rank them all equal. Vettel would come in at number 5 because he drove superbly in many races but had some terrible races that destroyed his challenge. I do rate Ocon but don't rate him in the top 5 yet.

13

@ laguna Seca...Choosing a top five, as shown, will always be controversial as it is difficult to be clinical and objective. Yes, Hamilton drove well but so did lots of others. As a follower only, we never ever get to see the 'inside running' so our perceptions are somewhat limited. Top five for the year is not just down to race results...therefore lies the difficulty.

14

A little too much emphasis placed on potential and maybes, with not enough on race results in this year's top five for mine.

15

Just shows you how meaningless these rankings are. Here are my top 5 for you since I know you care.

Hamilton
Vettel
Bottas
Raikkonen
Ricciardo

That's right, as per actual points table.

16

Beyond ridiculous, but as I said there's always a couple of oddballs. I'm not sure if Mark Hughes is a part of their editorial team ... if he is I'm sure he's horrified by that list.

It was well known that Alonso was getting new parts before Vandoorne. Zak Brown said as much just last week, saying that the gap between them was down to car and not driver.

No Vettel in the top 5 either. He made some mistakes at crucial times, but he had some very good races in the first half of the season. He led the most rounds of the championship this year. The pressure in his situation was far, far higher than anything that Alonso faced this year. Alonso gave this away when he said that driving around for a 7th at Monaco wouldn't change his life.

Their reasoning for each ranking is simply sheepish.

17

I was going to just let it go knowing that you and I would never agree. But I count ignore your constant rant. So, here’s what I think about Hamilton’s opportunities compared to any drivers in F1.

Ham had championship worthy car in 07, 08, 14, 15, 16, 17 & you can argue somewhat in 10 (that’s was the fastest car towards the end of the season). I couldn’t care less you agree with that or not. The fact is that he spent 70%-80% of his career in a championship worthy car, unlike others in the history of the sport. Now it doesn’t go against him or any other driver, it goes against posters like you who needs constant reminder of the obvious.

18

He also spent 100% of that time with past or future world champions as team mates, unlike vettel, Schumacher, or alonso. So you really can’t criticize him for his great choice in machinery. His teams’ insistence on equal treatment and no no. 1 status lost him 2 championships.

19

My constant rant? What would that be again?

I would agree with your list ('07-'08; '14-'17). '10 you can put in there, though it was definitely not the best car that year, it was some ways behind the Red Bull. Fastest car towards the end of the season? I think you're mixing that up with the 2012 McLaren, which won the last two races, and would have won in Abu Dhabi had Hamilton's engine not failed. However, that car was not championship worthy, as it was totally unreliable, costing Hamilton wins in Singapore & Abu Dhabi.

With '10 in there, that's 7 out of 11 seasons (63.6%).

If we look at Schumacher's first stint, he had championship worthy cars in '94-'95; '97; '99-'04; and '06. So out of 15 full F1 seasons, he had a championship worthy car for 10 seasons (66.7%). Taking out '99, it's 9 from 14 (64.3%).

For Prost, he had such cars in '83-'86; '88-'90; and '93. So out of 13 full F1 seasons, he had a championship worthy car for 8 seasons (61.5%).

For Vettel, he had such cars in '09-'13, and '17. That's 6 out of 10 full F1 seasons (60%).

For Senna, he had such cars '88-'91, so 4 seasons out of 10 (40%).

So, looking over those WDC's careers, you can make a case that Senna was shortchanged, but all of the others were in the 60.0-66.7% range.

At the end of the day, you have to ask why those drivers got so many opportunities, while others didn't. There was a reason why McLaren put Hamilton in the car in 2007, and there's a reason why Mercedes pursued Hamilton in 2012. The best drivers do find their way into the best cars.

Carefully look at where I've agreed with you, and where I disagree. Compare it to the caricature of me that you have in your head, and update where necessary.

20

Excellent analysis, particularly in comparing Hamilton's opportunities to drive chamionship worthy cars to past champions. Clearly undercuts the ant-Hamilton rant that Hamilton is extremely lucky compared to past champions in the chances to drive the best cars. LOL !!!

21

@ KRB.... Mark Hughes is very much a leading part of the Motorsport team. Nick Trott is the editor and Mark Hughes is the GP Editor...so yes he was part of the decision making process. You'd have no way of knowing whether or not he'd be 'horrified' by their decision unless he personally told you so or published a dissenting vote. You're projecting as usual.

22

Hmm, Mark Hughes has his own ranking on there. This was his posting for #6-10:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/mark-hughes-top-f1-drivers-2017-10-6

I can guarantee 100% that Hamilton will be his #1 driver when his #5-1 list comes out. It's the only logical choice. I'll be sure to ask him about that other list, and his reaction to Alonso in as #1. Will let you know.

23

@ KRB...well we'll see what happens. If he has a different list then so what. I don't have a problem with that. Everyone has their own list. If you disagree with the Motorsport decisions then i suggest that you tell them that they are wrong and that you know better than them... that's your prerogative.

24

Good point KRB about Alonso getting parts first and engine upgrades first as well. Net result: outscoring 1st year rookie by 4 points.

Let's also not deny that Alonso was just collecting his paycheck this year probably.

4th year anniversary of the Schumi accident on 29th. I couldn't believe what I was reading that day. Hope he's making some progress.

25

@ KRB...It's not just about the final points...it's taken as a gauge over the entire season. You have your opinion and they have theirs.

26

Yes, they have theirs, and I've pointed out how I think theirs is not credible. I have no problem with Alonso in the top 5 or even top 4. Putting him as 1st makes absolutely zero sense. Zero. As I said up above, he was never in a real pressure situation, he often had a better car than his teammate (widely known, but confirmed by the team principal just last week as well), yet trailed said teammate with only two rounds to go. It's not like he had one or more great results that his teammate couldn't match ... Alonso snagged a 6th, but then Stoffel got two 7th's. If Alonso scored a podium, while Stoffel's best was a 7th, that would be noteworthy. Also, it's not like Vandoorne had an amazing rookie season either, a la Hamilton circa '07. His first half was quite poor, with the really bad mistakes in Spain and Monaco. A car advantage, a rookie teammate learning the ropes, and he just beat him by 4 pts? That's worthy of the #1 ranking? Methinks not.

It's simply a sop to the Alonso fandom out there, and the hope that he is able to again compete at the front, sometime soon. I hope for that too, but wouldn't let it permeate into how I ranked the drivers for this past season.

27

@ KRB...are you seriously suggesting that Motorsport magazine would manipulate their list to favor one driver to gain traction with his, Alonso's, fans ? Extraordinary suggestion.....

29

What Miracles did Alonso perform?

DNFing more than Stoffel and outscoring a 1st year driver by huge 4 points?

30

Managing to actually race with that Honda PU is pretty miraculous.

31

Laguna, put Stoffel second then?

32

TimW, unfortunately Stoffel was rubbish. The way Alonso raced and the way Stoffel raced were light years apart. Stoffel just didn't look like he knew how to drive the car. I haven't written Stoffel off just yet as he has had a few races where he showed promise, but 2018 is his last chance I think.

33

I feel the same as TimW ... what I've seen coming out of McLaren points to them liking Stoffel. They've been saying the same sorts of "future world champion" things that they were saying before the 2017 season. Prost saying that Stoffel is already at Alonso's level, can't hurt.

I would be surprised if McLaren sack Vandoorne next season.

34

KRB all the positive talk coming out of McLaren about Stoffel is interesting. As is Prost's assessment. Maybe he is just biding his time learning out of the limelight.

35

Laguna, you think Stoff is in trouble? To be honest I haven't looked that closely at his performances, he seems to be the 'invisible man' of F1! I seem to remember the team making some positive noises about him through the season, but that doesn't mean they aren't about to sack him!!

36

TimW I think he must show he is a top class driver next season. At the moment he is reminding me a lot of Magnussen. I think the team believe he is the real deal I just haven't seen it in a race yet. 2019 surely they put Norris in one of the seats. Still as a McLaren fan no one will be happier than me if Alonso and Stoffel are pushing each other in a competitive McLaren.

37

Laguna, the Renault engine will remove his hiding place won't it? He has kept a low profile up to niw, which can be a good thing for a young driver, but he will be in the spotlight next year. It has been difficult to judge either of the McLaren boys these last few years, but with Lando waiting in the wings as you say, Stoff has to step up!

38

Didn't mention how many races he outqualified Stoffel. Check it out - I think you will be impressed.

39

Indeed Henry. And still only 4 more points than Stoffel in the end.

40

putting alonso in the top 5 would leave you the job of describing how well he drove at several races.
how many did he finish well in? i forgot.

41

.... and lots of tantrums and pouting..... "Don't you guys understand, that I am used to winning, but accepted a gazillion dollars a year to drive for a back marker team?".

42

Since you are taking tantrums into accounts, I assume Vettel and Vesteppen would also be included on your list? Just what F1 needs - more politically correct drivers.

43

...didn't stop James from putting Verstappen in p2!

44

verstappen deserves his place on jame’s list, hands down!

45

Debate was not about why Ricciardo had the most overtakes. Don’t mix match the topic please while responding to a comment. Ricciardo managed the highest amount of overtakes in 2017 (check JA’s report on 2017 overtaking), that’s the fact regardless of who and what he was driving against. That’s a different topic. Please get it through your head.

46

I would go along with your order this year James, thanks for another 12 months of great articles, Merry Christmas to all at JAonF1.

47

Nice list. I can live with the top 5 and especially love the way you motivate your choices.

48

What???? No Bearded Spaniard in the Top 5 ranking????!!!!

Lewis Hamilton may be DOTY, but Fernando Alonso is the Competitor of the Year. Even after 15 consecutive seasons, and despite being dogged by a woeful Honda PU, Alonso's driving was as brilliant as ever in 2017. How else could he have wrenched that McHonda into P7 in Spain and Brazil? Or set FL in Hungary?

Every time the Bearded One is strapped in the cockpit, from FP1 to the chequered flag, he always tries his absolute hardest. Every braking phase, every apex, every traction zone he is always absolutely on the limit and totally committed. And yet remarkably consistent with it.

The wonderful Anglessey circuit in Wales is the only track in the world named after a Viking leader, Ongel the Norse warrior. If there is one driver who epitomes the Viking warrior spirit it is Fernando Alonso. He is an absolutely ferocious and unrelenting competitor, whatever the circumstances he never caves in. Make no mistake, if next year's McRenault is even remotely competitive, Alonso will give Lewis Hamilton and Max a very hard time, because he is the most complete and consistent driver on the grid. That he is able to maintain his motivation, skill and focus after 15 years in Formula 1 is a testament to his never give in warrior spirit.

Merry Xmas everyone, see you in 2018!

49

No, the ' bearded Spaniard' doesn't deserve to be on this list or any other such list, as you've said many times. Now if he were to become the ' Shaved Spaniard' , I'm sure James would add him in a jiffy. 😉

50

Gaz Boy, Love you bro but I'll respectfully disagree. James Vowles wrotes; "there are times we've seen on the data that fernando isn't giving it his all."

Fan tend to overreach when fernando is concerned. Judge the man on his merit, not the living God status so many have given him.

Much has been made of lewis' off weekend, but what of Alonso's. Bested in Malaysia, one of his strongest tracks and has retired the car on numerous occasions. While I sympathize with the honda situation, this isn't the manner a 2x wdc should operate. It's childish and petulant. Let's not forget his number one clause and preferential treatment. Always gets upgrades first which skews the results even more in his favor. I don't understand how a team, with the resource of mclaren can't provide simultaneous upgrades at once. Ferrari manages, as does Redbull and mercedes. They all have comparable budgets.

If as you've suggested, alonso should be in the top 5, how about Pascal? Marred by an uncompetitive car, he's driving has been superb.

51

To be fair even Hamilton said he didnt give it his all after winning the WDC either or was that an excuse he gave for being blown away by Bottas when they were allowed to race and no team orders?
Alonso had no reason to give 100% every race either.

52

Jimothy. There you go again with the attention seeking, you just can't help yourself can you? Lewis and Valterri were free to race all year, the only exception being Bahrain where allowing them to squabble amongst themselves would have damaged the team's chance of victory. But then you knew that......

53

allowing them to squabble amongst themselves

Thats racing Tim, if VB was allowed to hold Hamilton up, and let Vettel or Max win, Lewis would have had less points, which would have given VB a better shot at the title.
I understand that the team comes first but that also means VB had to sacrifice points like in Japan when he threw away a podium, if he held Lewis up and let Max overtake that would mean 7 points less for Hamilton.
Hamilton did it to Rosberg (but failed) in their last race together but you seem to forget that.

54

Jimothy, why would Max have won in Bahrain? Are you still clinging onto the idea that Valterri could possibly have kept Lewis behind until the end of the race? Lewis was two seconds a lap quicker, an undefendable pace advantage at that circuit, the only result of letting Valterri defend would have been an already slim chance of winning would have gone completely.
I feel sure we have had this conversation before, but how sure are you that Bottas would have been on the Suzuka podium if he had pitted sooner? He couldn't get by Dan at the end, difficult to see how he would have managed it with older tyres. Your scenario where Valterri could have somehow engineered Max overtaking Lewis is even more far fetched! So Max who couldn't overtake Bottas with much fresher tyres, would have overtaken Lewis who had fresh rubber? Seems highly unlikely to me that Bottas could have slowed his team mate enough to let Max get a run on him, without getting overtaken himself. Even less likely that any team would ever allow such a plan to be enacted. You should also remember that your two theories are incompatible with each other, if Valterri had pitted earlier and (according to you) given himself a chance to overtake Ricciardo, then he would never have been in front of the leaders.

55

The problem for Bottas is that he lost two seconds of race time in the process of letting Hamilton through and spent two extra laps in the 1m35s compared to the 1m 33s he was able to do on supersofts after his stop.

The consequence was that he didn’t have quite enough time on the supersoft tyre set to catch Ricciardo.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/10/insight-how-red-bull-forced-mercedes-hand-in-tense-f1-tactical-battle/

why would Max have won in Bahrain

I didnt say anything about Bahrain.
I think you missed my point, i was replying to your comment where you said they were free to race, but obviously Bottas was not allowed to take points off his team mate, as in hold him up.
If Bottas was allowed to do what Lewis did to Rosberg in their final race together, both Vettel and Bottas would have had a better chance at the title.

56

Jimothy, except Valterri did catch Ricciardo in Japan. After the final vsc period he was right on Dan's gearbox, and then just sat there for five laps until the flag, pitting earlier would have just put him on older tyres at the end, so even less likely that he would have got by.
I think you ate forgetting that Lewis wasn't allowed to back Nico up in Abu Dhabi, even with the constructors title won, and first and second in the drivers secure, the team still did everything they could to stop him, the idea that they (or any other team) might have let either driver risk an overall result for individual gain is clearly incorrect. Are you really trying to suggest that if these tactics were allowed, that Valterri might have been any closer to Lewis? At what circuit do you think this might have gained any points for Bottas or cost any for Lewis.

57

Who is the expert here, you or James? read the article, he would have caught Ric earlier.
If VB held up Lewis in Japan, Max would have had a chance to overtake, he would have went for it too, Lewis probably would have moved aside or maybe Max would have crashed into him trying.
VB is left out to block Ferraris in races, he was totally free to race them but he couldnt do the same to Lewis so that obviously means they are not 100% free to race.

58

Jimothy click on the link you posted and look at the race history graph. Remember that eaxh of the little squares represents five seconds, and tell me what lap you think Valterri would have caught Dan if he had pitted earlier. I make it just before the final vsc period, so it wouldn't have made any difference. Obviously if he had used your method of backing Lewis up, then he would have been nowhere near Ricciardo at any point, and may have had Kimi breathing down his neck if he cost himself enough time. Maybe when I used the phrase "free to race" I should have said 'as free to race as any other two team mates have ever been in the history of the sport'. Apologies for any confusion this may have caused, and feel free to actually answer any of the questions I have asked throughout this little back and forth.

59

Well James seems to think that VB could have passed Dan, i agree with him on this one, he would have had a good chance but nobody could say for sure either way.
VB would not have cost himself time holding up Ham, he would only have to drive normal, we all know that Ham had trouble even trying to pass Alonso in a Honda at the Mexico race, so i doubt he would have got pass his team mate, even if his tyres were older

60

Jimothy, and if Valterri had stayed out even longer, then any chance of catching Ricciardo would have gone, just driving at a normal pace wouldn't have given Max a run on Lewis, so what would the point have been?

61

You missed the McLaren year when a Rookie called Lewis Hamilton beat him ?

And the years after where a scared Alonso went and hid in a midfield team to nurse his ego and Spanish Journalists tales of his "legandary status" ...because he knew what would come of a fair battle with Lewis ?

As delusional as the Ricciardo fans making up excuses for such a drubbing... "he deserves to be World Champion, but it needs to be the right year because he cannot beat *all* the other drivers"

62

Uh.... really, how often has there been a realistic prospect of Hamilton and Alonso at the same team since Alonso parted ways with McLaren?

Alonso being beaten by Hamilton is a bit of a bogus claim. They finished equal on points, which was a very good result for Hamilton, but Hamilton was ahead at mid season and so Alonso outscored him in the second half.

63

What drubbing?

64

Speaking of delusional...

65

After an entire season they were level on points...

66

Simon, a rookie level onpoints with a double world champion? Impressive isn't it? Even more impressive is that his other results were better than Fernando's, and this is why he finished higher in the standings.

67

They do not get it. That is lke comparing the results of a great surgeon and a first year intern and the intern performing the surgery in question better than the so-called great man. That makes it a DRUBBING. LOL !!!

68

TimW, can’t see any of your replies here. My reply to all of your responses is what I said I’m my response about hypocrites owning up to the facts rather painting a misleading picture and trying to talk their way out of the history.

69

Sorry, think I may have replied to you rather than KRB earlier.

70

KRB, trying not to be one of those three fingers so often might make this place a healthier place to attract and keep posters. If you have a look over this site it is a regular occurrence that is becoming more common and whether justified at times or not, I have little doubt that it is not conducive to a welcoming environment.

71

Bryce, any reason you addressed that to me? If you believe that I consider myself pure and without fault, then let me disavow you of that notion right here and now. However, I am not a hypocrite, and nothing pleases me more than seeing a holier-than-thou type get their comeuppance.

Nothing would please me more than to talk about F1 in a cordial and congenial manner. When I comment (I mean when I start a comment, and not in reply to another's), I would like to think that I'm reasonable and fair.

What we get a lot of is the same old arguments, rearing up again and again. Apparently nothing is ever put to bed, even though it usually ends in the same way (with those making silly arguments dismantled, and slinking away, 'til the next time they bring it up). The first debate lesson one should ever receive, and take fully to heart, is don't keep arguing a loser. If an argument is lost, recognize that, and don't tread on that ground again. I would say an inordinate amount of people on these threads simply do not get that. They needlessly put themselves in the kill zone, time and time again. It doesn't seem rational to me, but I've long since learned that common sense ain't all that common.

What I also see a lot of, is that instead of people arguing what they actually believe, that they somehow feel countering an outlandish post with a diametrically opposite one will result in the balanced conversation they crave. Instead it just polarizes everything.

I am always receptive to constructive criticism of myself, Hamilton, or any driver. I just ask that people think through their arguments, try to see and argue the other side, and not consider their arguments fully formed right off the top of their head. That last part, to think like that, is incredibly arrogant.

I will try to do that, and I hope others do as well.

72

@KRB

I would second Adrian's comment - excellent post 🙂

73

KRB

Excellent post. Particularly your penultimate paragraph.

74

Thank you Adrian. Reasonable people can agree to disagree, without being disagreeable.

I believe we're all well aware of who the sh*t-disturbers are.

75

I too am considering my input and the affect it may be having on the overall experience of the site, so it was not singular in aim. I already very rarely enter into discussion on Fernando because my heart may have too much control over my head in comment.

I only post on two forums, one for football and here on JA for matters F1. At the moment it just feels that the experience that made me join and contribute is increasingly losing it's appeal. I have in the past written to you, something along the lines of 'come on, you are normally better than that', so I generally respect your contribution and understand there are some with an antagonistic approach. Wittingly or not though, in my eyes you often find yourself as one of those "fingers" that when together are not conducive to creating a comfortable environment for some, and particularly for newbies.

Though I may not be able to put a stop to and completely remove sarcasm, as I have found myself noting and engaging Aveli of late, I will be looking further into the mirror sans rose coloured glasses and attempting to change my approach.

76

I fully welcome any new posters out there, many who might see things in a different way, and help me see things in a different light. There is a manner of writing which conveys an honest divergence of view, and then there are those where it's clear the motivations behind them are not upright or decent.

I think we all know which posts are "playing fair", and which are just made to stir up stuff. I would just ask that you look to see who starts the stirring up posts. It's usually the same people everytime.

Next time there's a new article, and someone starts something that I believe to be outside the bounds of reasonableness, I will reply to it and note it, and then others can decide if I'm being fair or not with that.

77

Not sure what you're responding to, but I'll just say F0 that when you point the finger at someone, remember that there's 3 fingers pointing back at you. If you're going to accuse someone of hypocrisy, you'd better be pure as the driven snow yourself. You are not, so then what we're left with is just a pious display.

78

F zero, sorry, that doesn't make any sense.

79

Can’t see your comments again TimW. I gave you examples and you are saying I didn’t. So, let me make it a little bit more obvious for you. You replied me with phrases using “bathers” and “haters”, which I couldn’t care less about what you think. But I take it as you are including me in that group as you replied to my comment. I challenge you to find one comment where I said Hamilton isn’t one of the greats or undeserving or I hate him. So,using such a phrase is a sign of untruthful behaviour to me. In contrast, I’m struggling to find one comment where Ham fans acknowledging that he had the opportunities that no one else enjoyed when comparing his ability or achievement to others. You say it’s not required? I beg to differ my friend. So, yes I’m putting you into the list of those hypocritical commentators.

80

Ahh yes, the old F zero tactic of simply claiming to have given examples and evidence, while not actually doing it! I really think you have started an argument in an empty room on this one, you originally claimed that Lewis fans denied the 07 and 08 McLarens were championship contenders, I have never seen anyone claim this. You then went on to say that Lewis fans deny the 14,15 and 16 Mercs were dominant, again I have never seen anyone say this. Now you accuse me of saying you hate Hamilton, except I didn't say that at all. I have no idea what point you are trying to make in any of this, I'm not sure you do either.

81

That’s means we are not going to go anywhere TimW. Seems like we are debating two different topics. Let’s end the year on a good note. Happy new year buddy.

82

F zero, fair enough, Happy New Year!

83

Yet not level in the standings. Hamilton was classified 2nd, Alonso 3rd, on countback. Ergo Hamilton beat Alonso. This isn't hard people.

84

Bingo, Drop mic time !!!

85

I agree Gaz.

And I also have a suspicion you wish the bearded one was a Brit!

Merry Xmas Gaz. 🍾

86

Not unless Idris Elba is the gate keeper GazBoy. Then I think LH will have the upper hand. The bearded Samurai will be waging war with Red Bull and Ferrari.

87

I think they'll be closer to FI, behind the top three teams.

88

Agree the "bearded Spaniard" should be there.

89

stroll stood on the podium in his rookie season. i didn’t see alonso in any of those words you used to describe him all season. he’s an incredibly talented driver but didn’t quite put his vast experience into good use. instead he was playing with indie car and le man and triple frown. what a waste of a talent?
2018 will be another opportunity for him to shine but unfortunately he’s still talking triple crown..

90

"that is one tough mofo" - Lewis Hamilton on Alonso, 2017.

Few could have said it better

91

I'm pretty much aligned with JA's top 5.

Although, I have to say, while Max does seem to have the more natural talent over Ricardo, if I had a championship winning car, I think I would choose Ric over Max (for now).

Looking forward to see if LH can raise his game even more. I suspect he will if the competition force him to - one thing I observed about him, the more you push him, over time, the better he performs (as long as he feels he has the support of the team), never doubting his ability.

Anyway, merry Christmas and a happy new year to all.

Bring on 2018 - planning on going to Belgium GP (love that track). Fingers crossed it happens.

92

Well said. Lewis always returns stronger after a defeat. A zenkai boost for all you DBZ/S fans.

93

teams don’t often choose drivers after having a championship winning cars do they?
i wonder who would’ve driven the car to that championship.

94

No Alonso on the list despite another season of pundits crying into their champagne whislt telling us but for a better car he would be champion. We can debate Hamilton and how the Saturday engine mode gives him a major advantage. There lies the problem which we continually argue over, separating driver skill from car speed. So a good top five but not mine and I guess other contributors will offer different contributions.

95

Jon, TBH, pundits say alot of nonsense. Theirs isn't the be all end all. Nico, hate typing that name; said while on sky, how incorrect they are half the time. Martin is fairly entertaining, crofty and co are plain useless.

C4 fellas are quite adept though.

Also, pundits have been crying for Alonso for the past 10 years. How can a guy who constantly negotiates himself out of a championship winning car get so much plaudits is beyond me. He is a great driver, but driving is only 1 part of a pilots job.

Alonso is far too political. Every word uttered usually has a political undertone which more often than not results in his own demise. KARMA!

96

Hamilton number one...Somebody better get Aveli a tube sock. This is going to be messy!

98

Well maybe he should have done the tyre test like Vettel, especially since Bottas was new to the team.
I think the Mercedes drivers were the divas not the car, or is that Hamiltons development and engineering skills that made it that way?

99

Is this an attempt to go for the most INANE comment of the year prize? If so, you have succeeded. Congratulations LOL !!!

100

Seriously everyone, it was sooooo difficult to drive the most dominant car on the 2017 grid. You think brain surgery is difficult, you should try driving this car that took 75% of poles. So hard that even Bottas won 3 race driving it. Take my word, it's hard. Like solving a rubik's cube.

Look, you guys, it's really really hard doing this in this car, you know? Hey, Toto, back me up here...tell them what a diva this car was, you drove it, right?

101

I guess the RB6 was a dominant car then too, right Sebee? It took 79% of poles (5 poles for Webber), and Webber even took 4 wins in it.

As I recall you consider 2010 a close F1 season.

102

By the way KRB, let's get back to the key point....did anyone at Red Bill at the time try to over dramatize the difficulty of driving the RB6 or make claims about how it wasn't a good car? Jog my memory would you? Coz all this downplay from Mercedes and trying to make us think they climbed Everest in 2017 is making me a little bored.

103

Imagine what Toto would say when they will really have a fight on their hands once!

104

Not sure Mercedes ever said it wasn't a good car. They've said that it was a very good car, but difficult at times.

I'm sure we could go back to 2010 and check the stories from there, the Team Principal press conferences, and find some stuff from Horner. We know that Vettel had a perceived problem with the car around Spain & Monaco, when he demanded a new chassis. The RB6 was a beast ... it must be something if Adrian Newey claims that it is "probably the car with the most downforce in the history of F1".

105

@KRB
Be nice to Sebee now KRB, it is Xmas after all😂

106

As an honorary treasurer of JAonF1, how dare you dance around it?

What's the winning % for this W08 over the season? And RB6? Oh, is that so. And that's without that obvious convenient "de-rate" surrender in Malaysia to Max? Interesting.

107

Sebee, it's OBVIOUS that Red Bull were just managing the championship in 2010. They knew they had a killer car from the preseason testing, so look at what they did to make the season close:

BHN: Vettel led for the first 33 of 49 laps, then developed a spark plug issue. Obviously this was to give Alonso a dream debut at Ferrari, and set up a fake rival.

AUS: VET led for the first 25 laps, controlled the race easily. Alonso wasn't right behind, so it was ok to throw another one. A convenient brake failure for VET ensued.

TUR: I mean, really?! Did you see Seb turn into Mark even though they were side-by-side, going down the straight?!!! OBVIOUS.

GER: Alonso in the Ferrari were dropping too far back, so of course Vettel allowed himself to get swallowed up at the start. Massa got ahead of Alonso, which wasn't great, but RBR knew that Ferrari would swap 'em later.

BEL: As Button will still ask, how is it possible to T-bone someone on a straight?!? Obviously an overreach from the RBR drama creation department.

KOR: After Japan, WEB & VET were 1-3, but VET was tied with ALO on pts. Brazil & Abu Dhabi were up next, both races they had won in 2009, so it was time for a double retirement from the RBR boys. Webber drew the short straw, which meant he had to look amateurish going off in the rain, while Vettel got the exploding engine, after leading the first 45 of 55 laps. OBVIOUS.

RBR fully gave up 4 easy wins (BHN, AUS, TUR, KOR), which would have made 13 of 19 wins (68.4%). All done to ensure that their wings wouldn't be clipped too soon by the FIA.

This should be OBVIOUS to someone like you Sebee who is so attuned to the "show" that is F1.

108

And the result was a first time champion winning it in the final race having never lead the championship all season long?

Well, if that's how Red Bull rolls with their management of the championship show, it is way more thrilling script than these conservative Mercedes scripts.

109

Well, recall that that was their first year of doing it. Just as the drivers tumbled over themselves and almost lost a championship that should not have been anywhere as close as it was, so it was with the team.

RBR got a lot better at it for the next three years. They kept Seb and Mark apart, but let the others beat Mark.

-- ok, fun over for now --

I guess you need to ask yourself, if as you believe Mercedes was comfortable managing the championship for the first 13 rounds, being behind for 12 of those rounds, why wouldn't they throw a few races after Seb & Ferrari stumbled in Singapore & Malaysia? If they could always pull it out at the end, why not do that?

110

They did give up Malaysia in the most suspicious way. You seriously believe that Mercedes either sent their pole sitter Lewis onto the grid without a charged battery or that Lewis doesn't know how to top up the battery on the formation lap? And then as Lewis was giving the W08 all he got in the full-on first few laps mode, Max in his RBR was able to keep up with Lewis without issues, and then have spare power in his ERS to pass Lewis for P1? You're telling me that Lewis' mighty Mercedes PU was outdone by Renault on merit? Seriously?

Then Lewis having won Japan and US, did only what was necessary in Mexico, and at that point Bottas is suddenly taking poles, win and podiums ahead of Lewis? Yeah, nothing fishy about that season finish.

As for being behind, that's part of making it believable, and they were never behind in a dangerous way. I told you they would drop the hammer after Europe, but it turned out that the plan was to drop it after the summer break. What looked to you as being behind was just falling back and preserving the illusion of competition, only to smash it at the right time. Mercedes know what they've got. And some of us aren't fooled by the pretending. Funny how Mercedes were behind and were never actually passed on track that entire time, with the first on track pass for the win being Max on Lewis in Malaysia after Vettel was completely out of it and at the back of the grid.

KRB, think of it as a buffet. 2014-2016 Mercedes would come up to the buffet and would leave scraps for others. Rare was the day when they would let someone else get to the buffet first. 2017, they've gotten a bit more generous for the good of the show. Little less gorging at the podium buffet to give back to the fans. That's all. But don't make any mistakes, the ribeye and shrimp platters - they still ensure no one else gets anything from those.

111

Brilliant KRB, just brilliant 🙂

112

Krb, ha ha! Don't forget the 2017 cars are much harder to drive than the previous generation according to the drivers, and that yhose V8s were so slow they can't have been that challenging....

113

just you wait and see how well they go next season after sorting out those wrinkles.
more will be begging for retirement.

114

It will either be a dominating slaughter or rerun of 2017 indeed aveli.

Considering that Mercedes wants to look like it is challenged, I'm thinking Mercedes will play it same as 2017. Control it but let a crack of hope in...false hope of course. But no doubt, slaughter domination is entirely on the menu at this point.

115

whatever it is, it’ll be different..

116

i’m sure we’ll see how it happens but however it happens, it’ll be their story.

117

Of that aveli, there is no doubt.

Mercedes owns PU era, season 5 coming soon. What will happen? What twists and turns will Mercedes make on the way to yet another WDC and WCC win? Surely there is no way they will surrender the Australian grand prix a second year in a row, right? Will they battle with others or back to just themselves?

118

Ricciardo is the only #2 on the list. 🙂

119

Ricciardo beat Verstappen this year. He's No1.

120

Max is their boy. They will do everything they can for him, and for him only. He is their new Vettel.

Ricciardo was a rebound to make them feel better after Vettel left. Now they want a real relationship, and clearly signaled with that 2020 deal that Max is "the one". You're welcome to look for a new team Ricciardo...they told him.

And that whole thing where they moved Ricciardo out of the way for Max last year in Spain for the win. That was really something, and quite telling. Ricciardo = Webber to RBR.

121

That's just like your opinion man.

122

What's your opinion of what RBR did in Spain 2016 Regnar? Would love to know to be honest.

123

I'd honestly like to believe they made a mistake. I think the guys on the ground were told by Horner to bring Ricciardo in to change the tyres as they wouldn't last. I think Marko told Horner to bring Ricciardo in so Max would win on his debut race.

At the end of the day Max will be the No 1 driver at Red Bull and
Daniel is smart enough to know his future lies elsewhere in 2019.

What Red Bull did to Webber in 2010 was disgraceful and that's what they'll do to Dan if he signs again so Dan will move on. In the meantime he's never going to be anyone's No2.

124

Change of strategy to 3 stop for leading car...a mistake that conveniently removed him from the path of Max taking P1 in first race after being promoted to the team?

125

Well said. RIC needs to go to Ferrari. That will unsettle Vettel. Maybe Ferrari can win a WCC while lsoing the WDC again !!! LOL.

126

You’re spot on here Sebee. It will still be the most intriguing & closely watched driver pairing of 2018. DR was only on average 0.178 secs behind MV in Q3 at 19 rounds this year (2 rounds not counted due DNF in Qualifying). And DR outscored the new golden boy, regardless of circumstances that can be argued.

Now he is designated No.1 driver and really must outscore DR this year. He’s never had to deal with that pressure, and it will be interesting to watch it unfold. He’s also the only top shelf driver dealing with such a close teammate, will make for a very interesting dynamic.

And DR has to get out of RBR, he’d be mad to sign up again. Even if RBR produce a WDC capable car over the next few years, he’s stuffed without support and team backing & will only ever be treated as No.2. There will never be team backing for championships when there is any mathematical chance of MV winning.

127

Spot on !!! Ferrrai should be the Rickster new home. After 2018, the shine will be officially off Vettel ( after again losing to Hamilton), Kimi wil be forced to leace F1 and Ric will have a chance to win a WDC on relatively equal footing. That is the likely and best scenario for Ric.

128

@iman
Would be great, but Vettel won’t allow DR to come to Ferrari. I think DR will end up at Merc😉

129

If rick ends up at Mercedes, it will be a boon for Vettel because that is the ONLY way he (Vettel) would be able to beat Hamilton for a WDC. Hamilton would beat Riccardo but would be weakened by the clash and have points taken from him in such a battle.

I know the Ferrari fanboys must be eager to have this happen LOL !!!

130

Max and Dan are the best pairing on the grid. There is not a lot between them at the moment. Max has an edge in qualifying, but Dan is not far behind. And Dan has a slight edge in racecraft, but Max is really upping his game there too. Terrific duo. Both seem to handle the pressure with ease.

131

I saw Max listed as number two, despite finishing the season well behind his teammate.

132

did you only start posting on here after reading the list?
have a read at the rest of the article for explanations.
everyone saw the list and is aware of the championship positions so what else do you have to share with us bryce?
look at the number of poles or qualifying positions and race victories for ideas on which was a better driver.

133

Firstly, may I suggest you look at the order and see which post it was in response to, as that shows context and I have shared my thoughts in other posts. I just happen to not agree with the reasoning and/or lack of it, just like you last year and have not been pushing that a favourite in Alonso should have been on it. You may be happy to know that I think your mate deserved his ranking this year.

134

Can’t see your comment yet Bryce. No worries mate, I gathered you replied to KRB, not me.

135

Sars, the tube socks double-edged sword. You get to make a joke, but then others are left wondering how you seem so familiar with the concept. 😃

Hamilton as No. 1 has already been priced into the market for awhile. Ho hum stuff, dead easy choice this year. Vettel had a car that could win, but Hamilton beat him straight up after the break.

136

What is this argument about KRB and aveli?

Hamilton was number one the minute Bottas was confirmed as number two.

137

What argument? I was saying that Hamilton coming in as the #1 rated driver of 2017 was a shoe-in.

Bottas was given equal opportunity at Mercedes, as is their way. Hell, he was only 19 pts back of Hamilton after 11 rounds (Hungary). By contrast, Kimi was only within 19 pts of Seb once, and that was after the first round!

138

Obviously Lewis was a shoe in, the minute Mercedes signed an obedient #2 driver to fall in line and give the leaders a headache free season.

139

Sebee, the driver they originally signed for 2017 left them in the lurch and Valterri was the best guy available at such short notice. Obviously the truth of the situation doesn't portray Lewis in a negative enough light for you, so you have come up with a more imaginitive alternate reality. Very good Sebee!

140

Sebee is a spinner of TALL TALES re Hamilton, a regular comedian LOL !!! It is amazing how much posts Sebee devotes to Hamilton as subject matter. That is a bit weird to do, especially concening someone you supposedly do not rate as a driver

141

Yeah, right, I don't rate Lewis.

Lewis is a fine driver, and an overall nice chap who's playing his hand well and enjoying his vocation.

My responses on his subject are related to those who believe he walks on water (a la Jesus), isn't driving the most dominant car in history of Formula 1, is to be credited for the PU advantage Mercedes carved out as if he himself designed the PU, engine modes, etc. and of course those who claim that Lewis hasn't won WDCs with a #2 in 2007 and 2017.

As soon as Lewis fan's are willing to admit those points, I think the conversation here would become much more balanced and realistic. It would also take away from individuals like me having to point those facts out and would serve to progress the conversation significantly.

142

Seb -re your last para...
Good luck with that...don't forget to come up for air occasionally!

143

@ Sebee....That is a summary that i can support.

144

No truer words have ever been spoken on this site.

145

Sebee, I seem to be spending more and more time responding to spurious claims made about what us Lewis fans say, are you and Formula zero suffering from the same mass hallucination? From the top then,
1. Lewis doesn't walk on water, he is very good at driving in the wet though.
2, The 14,15 and 16 cars were dominant, the number of people who denied this is roughly zero. People may have pointed out that other cars have also dominated previously, but nobody tried to claim it wasn't happening again.
3, There is only one person on this site who thinks that Lewis helped design the Merc PU, maybe you should address him directly instead of trying to claim that all Lewis fans agree with him.
4, What do you mean by number two driver? If you mean that Valterri and Heikki were/are not as good as Lewis, then I agree with you, but if you mean contracted number two like Michael used to have, then I would probably ask you to back that up.
I really don't think you have to point these facts out Sebee, or any of your more imaginative ones .....

146

I missed your response to Sebee first time round - mass hallucination, lol. Well said.

147

No truer words have ever been spoken on this site.

The Lewis bashers just want to be allowed to slate him without being challenged on it. Sorry, not gonna happen. That they persist with "kill zone" arguments is zero fault of mine.

148

@timw
Good reply tim👍

149

While I am not a Hamilton uber fan, I take exception to your description of Hamilton's talents. Hulkenberg and Sainz are fine drivers while Hamilton is one of the great drivers in F1 history, based on his record. See the difference?

Please let us get our definition correctly and then we can chat intelligently.

150

Oh really!! Valtteri is the only option they had!!

Hmmm. Let me juggle my memory a little. Oh I got it! Lauda said and I quote, “since Nico retired, my phone won’t stop ringing from drivers up and down the paddock wanting to take the seat”.

I got another one!! Toto said and I quote, “we considered Fernando. Alonso/Hamilton pairing sounds exciting, maybe too exciting. That’s why we went for Valtteri.”

Why do you think those comments from the decision makers sound like they have countless options? Lauda’s Comment suggest they could choose anyone they wanted in fact.

I have no issue with teams selecting number 2 drivers (even though I don’t agree with it). But I have issue with hypocrites and excuse makers that try to constantly talk their way out. At least own up to it.

151

Ok, let's add the word "practical" in there. Valtteri was the only practical option they had ... that's true. Alonso, Max, Ricciardo, Vettel, etc. were all tied up in longer term contracts with other teams. It wasn't a case of just paying some set buyout clause amount ... you would have needed another top team (RBR, Ferrari, McLaren) to agree to a release, and that wasn't going to happen.

You talk an awful lot about hypocrisy and excuses. What did MJ say all those years back? You might want to start with the man in the mirror.

152

Practical? In F1? Enough said.

153

Do you believe McLaren would have released Alonso? Do you believe Red Bull would have released Verstappen or Ricciardo? If the answer is no, then yeah, let's go with practical.

As TimW mentioned, the only F1 driver before 2017 that had never been outscored by a teammate was Bottas. I guess Lewis' dad was right when he said that Lewis ruins careers. You're proof positive, as you've given up on Bottas after just one season. I haven't given up on him yet, because I can appreciate that he had a tough situation this year (new team, higher expectations, and a capricious car). I expect him to be much better next season.

154

As I said before, own up to the fact. Don’t just pick and choose facts to suit yourself mate.

155

Which fact? Stop acting like the resident high priest, and we might get somewhere.

156

Who is that man in the mirror, and how many nose jobs did he have?

157

Mirror mirror, on the wall
Who is the fairest of them all...😄

158

F zero, haven't we been here before? Balterri was the best guy AVAILABLE! You know available as in not contracted to another team unwilling to release him from that contract, could Merc have had Verstappen, Sainz or Ricciardo? No, all under contract, and Red Bull would never give them up. I don't doubt Niki's phone was ringing, but who was on the other end? A load of GP2 drivers and ageing has beens? Valterri may not be the best guy in F1, but he is better than any of those guys.

159

Krb, Ferrari's continuing support of the help the aged charity is no laughing matter!

160

vettel was so destroyed he turned to tryin g to cut verstappens rear tyre and successfully cutting hamilton tyre in mexico. he made two attempts and hit both cars in each attem% score for contact.

161

Max hit the other two as well.

162

Max was clipped by Vettel, sh*t happens. But he could not back out once his wheels were interlocked with those of Raikonen. Anyone who says otherwise and even dare to suggest he should have\could have braked doesn't understand racing. The only way out was sideways. Oops, Raikonen on his right and oops Vettel on his right. No way to avoid the crash. Absolutely 0% his fault. Vettel had a brainfarth and didn't need to clip that much. Bye Bye Championship.

163

Wrong race wrong hemisphere. As for your description, of course it is too late to back out after he had turned into Kimi, though the seconds leading to that point provided ample opportunity to not put himself in that obvious position

164

hamilton didn’t beat vettel, he destroyed him...look at the carnage he left at baku and singapore..destroyed!

165

Well, Vettel surely feels destroyed. Hardly by Lewis or Mercedes but for his misjudgements and Ferrari's reliability. He knows he had Lewis' / Mercedes' number this year but failed to capitalise. He will be more than eager to start next season and redeem himself. Mercedes on the other hand were thanking Ferrari's implosion for this years WDC. They know next year is going to be very difficult. Stay tuned.

166

the only time vetel would have hamilton's number is when he overtakes hamilton for vidtory. until then......he'll be destroyed time and time again, nor matter how much help he gets from his teammate.

167

I do agree with you on that and hope it happens next year. But I don't think mentally it makes too much of a difference to champion drivers like Seb / Lewis / Alonso after losing to another champion. On the contrary, it fuels their desire to perform even better next time. See what happened to Lewis this year. Lets watch how Seb reacts next year...

168

Merry Christmas to you too KRB👍

169

Yes indeed. And thanks for the lovely pair of tube socks ... though why did you remove them from the packaging? 😄

170

On a marginally related note; I have a friend who used to work for the London Rubber Company in QC (years ago now) and every so often they would received 'used' returns where the customer was unhappy with some aspect of the product.......I'll let you think about that for a moment.
On an even marginally less related note; how come Sars has only got 1 star? I thought he was a 4 star user. Surely a man who is so hot on others alleged multiple user names hasn't been posting under a different name himself.....has he?

171

Its easy to do C63 when I forget to press the .au at the end of my email. Same Vpn, same device yet nothing is picked up from James end. Goes to show just how it can be done.
Now you know me, I have something to say I'll say it. I don't need to hide behind multiple names like a few others here.

172

Sarsippious, don't waste your time buddy. Enjoy the summer down under.

173

I dont mate although its amusing hearing some say my comments make them laugh when we all know the truth burns them up.
Have a Happy New Year Alan 🍻

174

That coming from the person indirectly trying to solicit protection from what he sees as too many replies to his comments ; yes you made that point in your previous exchanges with Tim. More evidence of wanting to dominate the site.

175

I forget to press the .au

Oh I see, and you did this so many times (making the exact same mistake) that you got a 1 star rating? It's easy to make a mistake with an email address and then post - that gives no stars. But to make the same mistake enough times to get 1 star......I remain unconvinced.

176

Wouldn't I change my name from Sarsippious. .......

177

Wouldn't I change my name from Sarsippious.

Maybe you made a mistake there, who knows. One thing is for certain though - you have been posting using two different email address's. How else would you accumulate a star - that's not the result of a single mistake with an email entry, you would have had to make multiple comments using the same email address to gain the star.

They're fun these witch hunts aren't they 🙂

178

Nobody uses their real names anyway, why would anyone bother, i have been accused of it myself, some of the LHFC are really paranoid i guess.

179

I have never been known by any other name.

180

@jimothy
I use my own name... nothing to hide here I’m afraid... I’m way to boring😉

181

It was Sars who started the witch hunt jimothy; claiming he knew about posters using multiple aliases - try to keep up.

182

Its been a problem on here for years and I was hardly the first to bring it up. Calling it a witch-hunt is childish.
James gives us all an avenue to debate and express our views on this site, one I'm very thankful for, and those that abuse that privilege deserve to be called out for it.
The fact the main culprits are core members of the LHFC is the only reason you have a problem color with it. Colour me unsurprised..

183

More desperate attempt to muddy the waters. There is only one culprit here, period. I see oneself up there in the guise of AlanF1 attempting a decoy by wishing oneself, sarssipios, a Brit but claiming Australian, to enjoy the summer. Have a good summer down under Jimothy 😁, and say Hello 😁 to your buddy cheesypoof 😁.

184

SARS, your last paragraph is a silly blanket statement. You're tilting at windmills with this. Who was it that you accused last time? BK Flamer or blackmamba? They'd been around for ages, yet you thought something was offside, and proceeded to shoot first and ask questions later. That was very witch hunt like. I trust in JA to crack down on it, in an appropriate and fair fashion.

185

KRB do you reckon Sarbillious is machine gunning posts so he can gain his extra 🌟
To be closer to his mate Ken . Then the 5 star duo can break back on a mountain 😄
Maybe peg a tent while the coffee is brewing 🤣. Never heard so much dislike over another F1 driver since Vettel stuck his finger in Mark Webber & pulled out his tonsils.

186

It was Buzzzz that Sars last accused - he then came up with a story that he was on drugs of some kind following an operation on his wrist . Odd that he knows all about tube socks and has also worn out his wrist 😄

188

Calling it a witch-hunt is childish

Oh, I see. So when you find out that I 'borrowed' that term from your pal kenneth will it still be childish or will it be acceptable? After all, isn't that one of your main gripes here - complaining that fans of LH are reluctant to call out other fans of the same driver through some kind of loyalty (I think that's the gist of your argument - correct me if I'm wrong). Oddly enough you were involved, in fact the instigator of, the debate where kenneth used the term and you said nothing of childishness. In fact you said nothing at all.......hypocrisy? You are absolutely guilty of the same 'crime' as those who you complain about and what's really funny is that you don't see it 🙂
Here's the quote for reference:

kenneth1 Star2 Star3 Star4 Star5 Star
@ The Real Random...why not have a witch hunt, sounds like fun. We could follow it up with a 'burning at the stake' to round it all off

What's the bit at the end about color/colour - I'm not familiar with the term. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain.

189

If you can't differentiate between a tongue in cheek comment and a serious one then I'm afraid someone else might need to explain it to you as you waste enough of my time here as it is.

190

Easy SarWars, you're just a deep thinking white hood wearing cross burning throw back to the Rabbit Proof Fence brigade.

191

Which part of your comment was tongue in cheek ?

192

Brace yourself for 40+ witless comments.

193

I know a couple of other names who'd need some tube socks..

194

Assume you'd be first up for a few pairs due to the level of cheese you produce 😂
We're not talking the cow variety either.
Constant blowing in the tube socks cheesy😄

195

After the outcome of 2017, I know a couple who will be too sour with misery to reach for a tube socks 😂😂😂.

196

Wow, that’s really high praise indeed from Webber to say Hamilton is the best driver since Senna, even better than Schumacher. Certainly you can make a very strong case for Hamilton but as ever with these ranking lists there will never be a consensus. But one thing is for sure though..... Hamilton indeed deserves to be in the discussion.

197

Sigh, all the drivers know how who's the best. They know who's most consistent. Hence the reason none ever questioned lewis' titles. Unlike Seb and his Newey designed RB.

198

have you not got it yet?
i’m confident you’ll soon get it easily enough.
you’ll soon realise that there is no argument over that matter..

199

James what are the advantages Schumacher had in his title winning years that Lewis hasn't had at Mercedes? Unlike LH, who by the grace of good timing walked into a car ready made for a Championship, MS inspired and led the Prancing Horse from the doldrums to a team that was able to rewrite the record books in both consecutive Driver's and Constructors Championships. At no time during those years was the Ferrari as dominant as the Hybrid era Merc and nor did Schumacher ever lose a WDC to an inferior teammate as Lewis has.
Hamilton has a long way to go before even being muttered in the same breath as Senna and a few more WDC before he can even be compared to the German.
As for Ocon James, geez, jump on the bandwagon. Having him in front of Alonso is sacrilege, especially at this time of the year.

200

Your comment is in vain - you don't argue with fans. From either side.

201

@wesa
You sent me a post which doesn’t seem to pass MOD.
Something about being nice to me even though I’m patronizing.
Haven’t got a clue what post you replied to, but my only answer to you would be, to be yourself, then it’s up to me if I reply or not😉

202

Im pretty certain MS had car specifically tailored to his requiements and his alone? to the extent that Bridgestone also created rubber to his preferences, He was in a team that was and continues to have more influence on F1 than any other team. As for losing to lesser teammates was that ever contractually possible?

203

Amazing how much drivers used to contribute to performance of the package, ain't it?

No wonder drivers are now only 10% or less of the total package contribution.

204

10% of what Sebee?

205

I'd like to wrap up this truth burrito, but all this truth won't fit Sars.

Re: Alonso. I'd like to just say, fear not Alonso Ultras, you will see your old dog have a go, but never for a WDC. The guard has changed, and there is no WDCs to spare to give a driver on the way out soon. May as well look to the future. Alonso did his job to help the post-Schumacher transition and he got his 2 WDCs gifted to him as a reward. He also has that fraudulent Singapore 2008 win trophy - the filthiest one of a kind trophy there is. That one trophy was the price of all the lack of success Alonso has had since, maybe.

I think Ocon is first in line for that 2019 Mercedes seat now that Pascal is off the grid, so why not big up the young lad. He did take it to Perez fully in his 1st full year.

206

I may have done you a disservice by sarcastically nailing you for your sometimes anti-Hamilton posts. As I reread some of your posts, You are not really ant-Hamilton. but there are times you go too far.

Re Alonso, his day as a WDC is done probably.

207

Hard to not agree with you there Sebee.

I very much doubt Alonso will win another title either although it will be down to the machinery at his disposal and not his talent.

Watching some of the on-board footage of him wrestling that pig of a McLaren around the past season was at times captivating, especially at Monaco. Add into what we saw him do at Indy and there is little doubt he is still one of, if not, the best driver on the grid.

Your probably right about Ocon too. I think he'd actually give Lewis a tougher run towards next year's title than Bottas will which says more about how I don't rate the Merc number two.

208

wrestling that pig of a McLaren around

Eh? I thought the McLaren was supposed to be one of the best chassis on the grid. That's what McLaren say. It's just the power unit that is letting them down.

209

Pig of a McLaren 😅
Utter rubbish that car chassis is one of the best. Designed by ex Red Bull aero and chassis team member. The car was solid in design and aero. The Honda engine was the slug in a superbly designed car.
Sarpee urinating in the big toilet now the potty is on his head. 😣

210

Honestly C63, what do you expect the McLaren engineers to say. Of course they blame it all on the Honda power unit.
Actually take the time to look at some of his onboard footage and make up you're own mind. COTA qualy two would be a good starting point.

211

COTA qualy two would be a good starting point.

I've just watched Q2 from the CoTA and I'm not sure what you are referring too. They showed about 40 seconds of Alonso cruising back to the pits (onboard) on an in lap and then about 7 seconds of him rounding the final corner (aerial view) and opening drs on the straight to take 7th place - eventually he ended up 9th as others posted quicker times. They also played some audio where Alonso was bigging himself up (as usual).
Are you sure you didn't mean a different quali? Monaco perhaps?

212

Its on youtube.

213

I looked on youtube and cannot find it. Please can you post the link?

214

I clearly should've put "especially at Monaco" in sarcasm font for you KRB, or atleast a smiley emoji or something afterwards to make it obvious for you.
Thanks for the concern about my health all the same👍

215

I wonder where my original post got to? Uh, so that was a joke?! Really?? Can you explain to me how it's a joke, i.e. what you were going for? 'Cos I don't see it, or get it. Guess I'm thick.

Alonso at Indy was fun to watch ... he acquitted himself well.

216

I clearly should've put "especially at Monaco"

Yea right KRB - Sars dropped a clanger and is trying to cover it in the most clumsy manner. Why not just admit he made an error? That's what a man would do apparently 🙂

217

Yup! Lucky guy walked into the fastest car (probably of all time once the next few years play out) and still got pipped by a team mate. Doesn't compare to Schumacher, and I'm not a Schumacher fan.

218

Ha ha ha😂😂😂haha haha.
There is no such thing as a ready made fast car for any driver to jump into and just win a tittle in. You still need the brain power to unlock the car's secret code to its ultimate capabilities. Button was lost in 2012 until Hamilton showed him the secrets to the right setup direction ; he even commended Hamilton for his ability to setup the car before Hamilton left Mclaren. In Rosberg, Hamilton had a teammate all these other drivers would have found difficult to handle . We the Hamilton fans are living easily with Rosberg winning in
2016; everyman deserve their fair share in life😁. It is that Hamilton hatred itch that leads to his competitors similarly getting it in the
neck😁😁😁.

219

Cheesypoof, what do you think Mr Todt would have done if any of Michael's team mates had looked like they were capable of pipping him?

220

How many wins did MS get gifted ?

MS constantly raced with a No2 driver helping him, Lewis has always had a competitive team mate and a fair chance for both.. any real assessment between MS and LH has to take into account the massive advantages MS had, and also the fact that he clearly cheated at least 3 of his "titles"... not least Hill in Adelaide, but with obviously cheating illegal cars like the "unused" hidden TC settings

221

Someone posted in the previous article, talking about how the media's mind control is making people rate Hamilton so highly. What? When Sir Stirling Moss said Hamilton is better than Schumacher, someone was controlling his mind? Heavyweights like Sir Stirling, tells it as it is ; no irrational hatred here to give oneself convenient distortions of reality 😁😁😁.

222

The 88 yo homophobic Moss?
Lets give him the excuse of being senile.

223

Or perhaps he might be biased because he is British? Love for one's nation tends to be strong, especially when you are old.

224

Wesa, maybe he is senile, maybe he is lying, or maybe...just maybe he is in full control of his faculties and knows far,far more about what makes a great racing driver than you two clowns.

225

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/i-dont-want-a-poofter-to-play-me-in-a-film-sir-stirling-moss-is-embroiled-in-homophobia-row-after-8534236.html
And if you don't rate this newspaper, then Google and you will find this was a global documented fact about Moss, as his repeated homophobic quotes came during the Motor Sport Hall Of Fame event in London on separate days. I wish he wasn't like that. I liked him before. But this is simple not acceptable in any way or form. Game over Moss.

226

All that effort to discredit him simply because he says Hamilton is better than Schumacher? Something you are not too keen to hear. You would like it to be game over Moss, but it isn't game over ; he is still knighted, meaning the good outweigh the bad, and something he is very much unlikely to repeat again. But the angle you have chosen to attempt to discredit him is interesting to me 😊. Perhaps i have glossed over your previous
comments 😊.

227

You appear to be implying many sinister reasoning's that I certainly do not have at all, so not sure where they come from or why you bring them?
I never liked Schumacher at all, but do recognize his amazing talent to organize the team around him and his skill behind the wheel. Personally I like Hamilton much more, especially being a much more charming and likeable person versus Schumacher.
Moss got knighted many years back in 2000 or so. Doesn't mean that he is a saint forever from thereon. With the latest #metoo, I hope you understand your shady past or personality might catch up with you, no matter how many titles or awards you might have collected. And I agree with you, he hopefully wont repeat such homophobia again. I still have him as #1 for being the greatest all-round racing driver due to the many categories he won in.
To TimW's comment below, I merely think that Moss has turned very old by now and lost his prior wit and awareness, which is natural with age. Somewhat also an excuse for his homophobic comments, disturbing they however remain. I therefore prefer to put little importance in what he says these days.

228

Cyber, and inwhat way does Stirling's views on homosexuality affect his ability to judge the merits of racing drivers? His attitude - although unacceptable in the modern era, is hardly unusual amongst his generation.

229

The British homer thing again? Tiresome. Moss would name Fangio as the best all-time I'm sure. Schumacher's instances of foul play certainly wouldn't be viewed favourably by a noble racer like Moss.

230

As if on cue....here you are....Weird that!

Care to post the comment you reference as I haven't seen it.

231

Contractual no. 2 driver. Unlimited testing with bespoke tires.

Schumacher won one title by running into his title rival, and tried it again three years later. As James Allison said last week, many greats have particular black marks in their CV. Schumacher certainly does. Hamilton doesn’t.

232

Hamilton doesn’t have any black marks. So lying to the stewards , calling the stewards racist and tweeting team data do not count as black marks then?

233

Jon, the lying to the stewards black mark is shared with every other driver ever, the Ali G comment was clearly a joke, which is why he didn't get into any trouble for it, and the data he tweeted may have got on Ron's nerves, but was in reality the type of straight line speed data that was readily available to the other teams. None of these things really compare with winning a title by deliberately ramming a competitor off the circuit, or deliberately crashing in qualifying in order to prevent anyone beating your time though, do they?

234

I was talking about driving black marks, but let's go through your list.

Re: Lie-gate, I think you should look up what actually happened there. Hamilton certainly was not the instigator of that, but instead was caught in the middle.

The "I is black" quote was ill-advised, but in no way compares to something like deliberately taking a title rival off. The first is just frustration boiling over; the latter is devious and unsportsmanlike to the nth degree.

Lastly, the team data tweet wasn't even real:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/button-lewis-s-tweet-it-wasn-t-even-real

235

KRB/ Timw. Not every driver lies to the stewards but even so. When the current world champion blatently lies and calls another driver a cheat ( getting him a penalty) then no way is he the innocent victim caught up in the middle.
Hamilton is no Schumi when it comes to “ black marks” but he is not whiter than white as many of his fans would have us believe.

236

Hmm, I think you need to look at Hamilton’s involvement, which basically amounted to saying "yes" when asked if Dave Ryan's version of events was correct (with him in the room).

237

Jon, I didn't say that he was, F1 is no place for someone as pure as the driven snow.

238

Timw...True!!

239

Not to forget their very own personal test track available to them 24x7x365!

240

You say that like Lewis didn't win with a No.2 in 2007 and 2017.

Other 2 years, the car was lightyears ahead of the rest, with only 1 driver standing any sort of a chance. I hope I don't have to remind you that this Mercedes is by a long shot (like 35%+ poles/wins) more dominant than the Ferrari when comparing the 4 years of PU era vs. 5 years of Ferrari championships.

Like not even a little bit of you thinks Mercedes is managing how this all works out? Like 0% change according to you, correct?

241

Sebee, let me get this straight, championships won with a team mate that isn't a top driver don't count, and championships won in the best car don't count either? So basically Schumacher and Vettel won zero valid titles between them?

242

don't forget who guides their engineers to design build and develop their cars.
the others just don't know how to do that well enough. ricciardo wants to sign a contract extension only if the car's good enough. imagine that.

243

Why did Lewis leave McLaren?

244

A bunch of factors. Ron was trying to re-sign him on the cheap, while Mercedes were willing to pay him what he's worth. Operationally, McLaren had been (and still are) horrible, costing him many lost wins/points. Brawn convinced him that Mercedes were going all in with their F1 investment, and that they would be a very good bet for the new hybrid era. Mercedes needed a driver like Hamilton to kick them onto a higher level, and so it was a great match. The rest is history.

245

Thanks for the reply there KRB I was however rather more interested in Aveli's reasoning based on his comments above.

246

There's 40 witless comments all rolled up into one post.

247

@ Aveli....you know 'everyone has the right to say something stupid from time to time but don't abuse the privilege'.

248

Lol Kenneth. Don’t bother mate. You are talking to the brick walls.

249

@ FZ...It's worse than that.....

250

Unlimited testing and a team built entirely around him. But people forget that Schumacher didn’t always have the best car. He won in a seriously underpowered Benetton Ford and the early Ferraris he drove were often dogs yet he dragged them to victories they didn’t deserve.

I agree that Hamilton has also had advantages that aren’t always fully acknowledged. He’s always had the fastest car (often by a long way) when he’s won his championships. Funny how when Vettel was winning championships Hamilton was always saying it was only because of the huge car advantage and he wouldn’t want to win that way but as soon as Mercedes began to dominate it was all good!

Can’t deny he deserves driver of the year this year though.

251

He didn't have the fastest car in 07 or 08, Ferrari did. Or do you think Kimi and Massa were better than Hamilton and Alonso?

252

Kimi was a different driver back than.

And as was Massa actually, pre accident.

253

@david
A Benetton ford with an illegal Traction control.

254

There's no doubt that Schumacher's legacy is tainted. However I do think it is unfair how he gets so much stick and others get away with it. Cheating is (and always has been) endemic and rife in F1. Whether that be mechanics triggering timing beacons, illegal fuel, banned electronic aids, flexi wings, burning oil to boost engine power, etc. Also, certain drivers have dominated/manipulated their teams (e.g. Prost played politics like no one else, there were rumours that Senna got more powerful engines from Honda, Piquet Jnr crashed to bring out the safety car for which helped his team mate win). As Ron Dennis said F1 drivers are competitive animals and that applies equally to designers, team managers, etc.

The level of cheating is actually the biggest reason why I've gone from an avid F1 fan to someone who now rarely watches it and keeps up mainly by following sites such as this. I'm now deeply cynical when I see any team or driver dominating and tend to assume there is some skullduggery going on! I also used to really enjoy cycling but the advent of EPO and all the rampant doping turned me off that too (although again doping and cheating was present before that). It seems that any competitive sport engenders the worst of human behaviour and the more money is involved the worst it gets.

255

@david
I don’t know if it’s blatant cheating, or just pushing the rules of interpretation to the limit. I find that those who blatantly cheat, usually get found out, not always straight away, but it comes out at some point. And there’s those that that are always trying to find what they can get away with within the rules, or should I say, just on the boundaries of the rules.
I find that some of these ideas the teams come with are ingenious! But as you say, it’s always been there in all sports.
The price of failure is expensive, as is the price of winning. It seems to be a fine line.

256

you wouldn't be posting on here if you weren't an avid fan.

257

Oops was that avid fan or rabid fan? Think you have to draw the line clearly so we can understand aveli..

258

unlike you, i like all f1 drivers. make it possible for us to hold the discussions we enjoy on here so why hate any one of them?

259

Hamilton/Alonso fighting lost the title. Was Massa better? No. Was Kimi? Quite possibly back then. People forget how naturally talented and fast Kimi was first time around.

260

There’s a positive correlation with the cars gradually getting heavier over the years and Kimi getting worse.

261

raikkonen's not getting worse, he simply gets demoralised each time he's instructed to give up his position vettel. it took him a couple of races to recover each time.
vettel should be ashamed of himself for allowing himself to be destroyed in the 2017 championship, with all the help he got from raikkonen.

262

Indeed. Anyone who watched the 1994 season and thought that the Benetton B194 wasn't the best car through that season, is nuts. It won the Autosport Car of the Year for 1994, and it led 61.8% of the laps that year (this, despite Schumacher only racing for 81.4% of them ... so he was leading for over three-quarters of the laps he raced that year).

Schumacher won that season despite being DSQ'd or banned from a full quarter of the races!! He was DSQ'd from 2nd at GBR, and 1st in BEL. Schumacher & Villeneuve are the only WDC's to be DSQ'd in a championship year. Schumacher is the only driver to be disqualified from an entire season, for deliberately trying to take off a rival.

263

vettel should have been disqualified too for his baku antics.

264

I really do hope that the FIA clarifies before the season starts that a repeat incident like Baku will result in a black flag for any driver that does it.

265

James, don't be so unfair! Yes the Benetton had illegal traction control hidden under the 'option 13' menu, but the team said they never used it, so that's ok then.....

266

You dont believe they didnt use it but you believe that Mercedes gives customer teams equal engines? Seriously? Take off the Hamgoggles for a minute and think about that again.

267

Jimothy. So because one team boss said something that was untrue, a different team boss, from a different team 13 years later must therefore also have been lying? Maybe that makes sense in your world! Things to remember, the Benetton team were suspected by serious observers to be running traction control long before the car was found to be equipped with the illegal system, there simply is no similar level of suspicion levelled at Mercedes over the supply issue. Proving that Benetton had used the tc system fitted to their car was impossible, proving that Mercedes were running more power than their customers would show up in the gps data from the cars.

268

one team boss said something that was untrue

You cant prove it isnt true, its not illegal for Mercedes to supply lower powered engines for customers, do you really think Mercedes would let their customers beat them?
Have a look at Spa qualifying times this year, we will use Bottas as Mercedes benchmark 1:43.0, the fastest Merc customer was Perez 1:44.8 in Q2, no Merc engine car could do better than 1:45 in Q3 but Jolyon Palmer could manage a 1:44.6 in a Renault on a power circuit.
So a minimum two second difference with the same engine modes?
If you use Ham as benchmark it would be 2.5 second difference.
If that minimum of 2.5 second difference is only down to the chassis then Williams and Force India may aswell quit F1, even Renault beat them with a clearly under powered engine.

269

Jimothy. I can't prove it isn't true, but you can't prove it is, and as the accuser, it's kind of your job. It isn't illegal for Merc to do as you suggest, but to make a public announcement like Toto's, and then do the opposite, could leave Merc open to civil action at worst, and serious egg on face at best. Like I keep trying to explain to you, the teams know how much power each other has, and don't forget the very public meltdown Franz Tost had in Brazil when he thought Renault were stiffing him, have we seen similar from any Merc customers?
Why did both Force Indias go slower in q3 in Spa? Did they use up their tyre allocation in q2? Neither Force India had any new ultra softs left for the race. Are you sure extra engine modes are the only explanation for the pace gap between Merc and Force India? You don't think that a couple of hundred million worth of aero and chassis development might have something to do with it? Why do you think Hulkenberg was 1.6 seconds slower than Max? Do you think Renault give Red Bull the best stuff, and disadvantage themselves?

270

I am not the accuser, Carter is, ask him to prove it.
The engines are obviously identical but the engine modes are software not hardware, Toto is a great salesman.
Both Force indias going slower in Q3 is more proof that they dont have the same engine modes, when did the works team ever go slower in Q3?
Hulkenbergs 1.6 seconds? Max driving skills would account for at least half a second of that.
Merc was a MINIMUM of 2 seconds faster with Bottas, i doubt he is any faster than Perez.
Of course the 2 to three seconds is not all engine mode, but its not all chassis either, ask Grosjean.

271

Jimothy, Ricciardo went slower in Q3 as well, is that proof that Renault don't give Red Bull the best engine modes? Like I said previously it is easily possible that Force India usedup all their ultra softs getting to q3, and had no new sets available, either that or they got caught out by the oil dropped by Palmer. It is interesting to learn what you thik of as 'proof' though, please tell me santa brought you a dictionary this year......

272

Red bull have no choice but to give the best engine modes, their engines are underpowered already, Im sure that if Renault have no chance of winning, they would rather have Red bull win than Merc.

Mercedes have motive, they dont want to be beaten by a customer, which is fair enough, its good buisiness and to say they give equal engines to customers isnt a lie, but engine modes are software, not part of the engine, they could have 50 engine modes, some customer, some secret, if you understand even basic computers, you would know how easy that would be to do.

273

Jimothy. Explain to me why you think Mercedes would get beaten by Force India or Williams? Explain to me why nobody has sued Mercedes, or even complained about them not supplying identical modes, when they said on record that they do.

274

Wouldn't it be better for Merc if they could give Force India or Williams an engine mode that would thrust them ahead of Ferrari and Red Bull at some tracks, but behind themselves? Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds for them? They would have clear motive to do that.

So in the temple of speed at Monza, when James has said that the Merc customer teams were asked to run with high modes for longer, Force India and Williams were still beaten by Ferrari and Red Bull, even though they started in front of them.

Engine power is a differentiator in F1, as it should be (the 'motor' bit in 'motorsport' gives that away), but aero is still the primary differentiator.

275

Probably should read something like, after a few years of power unit domination, aero has regained its position as the primary differentiator.

276

I always thought 'option 13' was crash into anyone who tries to overtake, which of course was never used either! Ask Damon!

277

@tim
Sorry Tim, that’s all settled then😄 my mistake😱

278

JamesK. Quite right too, the option was only there due to a clerical error apparently......

279

How convenient Tim.
But they obviously didn’t need it anyway, because Michaels starts that year were phenomenal. All the other drivers were impressed, including Senna.
His teammates were totally dumbstruck at how good he was, 2-3 seconds quicker a lap😱
( now I’m gonna get a roasting I’m afraid😂)

280
Ricciardo Aficionado

And the architect is now in charge of the whole show. I wonder who he'll choose as winner next year...

281

@RA
Your right, it was Brawn who appealed to the Merc hierarchy, saying if they wanted to win, they would have to spend a lot more money, and they gave it to him. Or they gave Merc F1 a substantially larger budget.
But on the other side, Ross is a winner, and he, more than anyone, knows about the “dark” side of F1.

282
Ricciardo Aficionado

Yes, RB has clearly demonstrated a willingness to 'bend ' the rules for a win. And favour one of his drivers over the other. If comments here are to be believed... to cheat even, for a win. And now he is making the rules!! And to add to the cocktail of skulduggery and dubious intent, his partner in crime, Todt, has the power to sign off on the whole thing now.
What with the puppet string nature of this "engine mode" era already bringing the playing surface into question, I fear the credibility of F1 as a legitimate "sporting" contest to be in grave danger. If not already completely shot.

283

JamesK, I remember Damon Hill being particularly impressed with Michael's ability to make aggressive direction changes under full throttle off the line. Apparently Damon thought that this wasn't possible without traction control, but that was probably just sour grapes.

284

option was only there due to a clerical error

Lol - wasn't it a clerical error that had mysteriously hidden the TC in a secret menu as well? It's the sort of thing that could happen to anyone.....

285

C63, yes it was just a series of unfortunate errors, I really don't know why people have to be so cynical about it...

286

Hamilton also won a number of races in an uncompetitive McLaren. These victories reminded me a lot of Schumacher's wins in the late 90's where he dragged an uncompetitive Ferrari to victory by force of will and talent. Hamilton has not yet, however, demonstrated the team leadership capabilities that Schumacher had in bringing an uncompetitive team back to the front.

287

Merc were winning championships aplenty before Hamilton arrived.....

288

You’re right but he also had nothing to do with R&D of the hybrid engine.

289

hamilton doesn't need to demonstrate anything schumacher has achieved. hamilton is a much better driver after all. most pole positions in only four championship wins?

290

demonstrated the team leadership capabilities that Schumacher had

I'm not saying you are wrong there - but if MSC was leading the team, what were Todt and Brawn doing?

291

@ C63...What were todt and brawn doing? What shumacher told them to do...simple really.

292

Seriously? And you have the nerve to accuse others of making witless comments - I thought you were better than that. Oh well, we all make mistakes.....

293

@ C63....the common opinion expressed thousands of time regarding Shumacher's success at ferrari was that he was able to build a team around him. Todt and Brawn were part of that team.....i make some light hearted banter around that fact and you get your 'princess dress' all bunched up. Lighten up a little...it's vacation time

294

Lighten up a little...it's vacation time

Ok, how was your birthday? 25th December iirc 🙂 Oh, and Happy New Year to you too.

295

@ C63..hahaha a ceasefire in hostilities eh? Yes, the birthday was significantly quiet but nevertheless pleasant. The fact that it was the lead in to the next hurdle, octogenarianhood, was not insignificant!!! I would also wish you and your family a very good New Year as well.

296

@kenneth
Now you’re sounding like aveli😱😱😄

297

@ James K.......Wow, really? hahaha What an indictment , and we haven't yet arrived at the New Year. Now that's going to make me think twice before responding ever again. Enjoy the festivities.

298

Michael Schumacher had the advantage of receiving 'taylor made' Bridgestone tyres. Don't underestimate that.

299

Yep . Schumacher drove cars that had dubious trick suspension and some of the Ferrari development was as dodgy as a 6 pound note.
Sarsippicup just hates Lewis to the point that it runs his daily life😄
Like a few others who creep out from their dens😁

300

No doubt Schumacher cheated multiple times. But he was mighty in wet, better than Ham and bearded Spaniard.

301

Oh no Sars, Hamilton was instrumental in developing the all conquering Merc hybrid engine.

Expect details soon from aveli.

302

hamilton said so himself.
he understands the characteristics of mercedes engines better than any driver in the history of the sport because he has raced mercedes engines for longer than any driver in the history of the sport.
he went to lengths to explain what lengths mercedes go to to get a huge number of their engineers to listen to his debriefs.
you watched the video and still live in your dreamland.

303

I wonder how much of Michael's input into the development of the Mercedes has played into Lewis hands as well. Also would Michael have won if he stayed on long enough for the Mercedes work to come to fruition.

304

when schumacher was at mercedes, they didn't win much that's why they replaced him with hamilton and we have all witnessed their relative results.
he can turn any of the top teams into championship winning teams.