The end is near
Yas Marina 2017
Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
Vettel beats Bottas to Brazilian F1 GP victory as Hamilton recovers to fourth
Posted By: Jake   |  12 Nov 2017   |  6:34 pm GMT  |  716 comments

Sebastian Vettel took his fifth Formula 1 victory of 2017 at the Brazilian Grand Prix, finishing ahead of polesitter Valtteri Bottas having taken the lead on the opening corner.

Vettel produced a well-managed race to put second in the World Drivers’ Championship almost out of Bottas’ reach, the German now holding a 22-point advantage over his rival.

The race was boosted by a pair of thrilling recovery drives from Lewis Hamilton and Daniel Ricciardo, with Hamilton working his way from a pit lane start to fourth, battling with Kimi Raikkonen for third in the dying stages of the race. Hamilton had crashed in qualifying, but made up for it with a thrilling race on Sunday.

Ricciardo, who had to take another engine penalty, managed to come home behind his team mate in 6th place after starting 14th on the grid.

Race won at the start
Off the line, Vettel dived down the inside of Bottas at the first corner, emerging from the Senna S in control of the race. Although the Ferrari driver tried to build a gap, Bottas hit back with a number of quick laps to close the gap to within two seconds.

“The start, initially I had a very good launch and thought ‘I’ve got this’ then I was maybe a bit too greedy with the throttle, spinning up the wheel a little bit and losing a bit of the momentum on Valtteri,” said Vettel.

“But then I looked over and saw that he was still struggling and then I sort of gained a little bit again on the second phase, which was just enough to give me momentum to hang in there into the first corner. Yeah, I knew I had to go for it.”

Bottas and Mercedes then tried to wrestle back control of the race by pitting before Vettel at the end of lap 27 for soft tyres, attempting to snatch the undercut – and the lead. It was a long shot, as the undercut margin was very small here this weekend with these tyres. A car needed to be within 0.7s as it peeled off to the pitlane to make it work

Ferrari knew this and brought Vettel in on the following lap to cover the move and he returned to the track marginally ahead of Bottas. Although the Mercedes driver attempted to take advantage of Vettel’s cold soft tyres, the German held on and ultimately maintained a gap of over two seconds to put victory beyond Bottas’ reach.

An incident-packed first lap triggered the safety car almost immediately; for a collision between Stoffel Vandoorne and Kevin Magnussen’s Haas, which pitched Daniel Ricciardo into a spin. Vandoorne and Magnussen retired on the spot, but Ricciardo was able to keep going.

Moments later, a collision that spelled the end of Esteban Ocon’s 27-GP finishing streak (in fact his first retirement since 2014). The Force India driver was collected by an oversteering Romain Grosjean at Ferradura corner – Grosjean receiving a 10-second time penalty and points on his licence for his part in the incident.

Hamilton on the attack with fresh engine
Having started from the pitlane with a new spec power unit that he could run at an aggressive regime for more of the race than his rivals, Hamilton took advantage of the early incidents in front to line up in 14th as the safety car hit the track, before making short work of the field in front to ease into the top five within the first 20 laps.

Rising to the lead of the race after the cars in front of him pitted, Hamilton stayed out until lap 43 before switching to a set of super-soft tyres to drop back down to fifth, 11.5s behind Max Verstappen. Hamilton was clocked at 347km/h with DRS and tow along the straight into Turn 1, at times up to 25km/h faster than the cars he was passing.

Vettel returned to the lead, boasting a steady 2.6s advantage over Bottas. Hamilton, meanwhile, ignited his bid for a podium by rapidly catching Verstappen, breezing past the Red Bull on lap 60 before going after Raikkonen.

Attempting to launch an attack on the Finn at the start of lap 67, Hamilton snatched the brakes and locked up – Raikkonen proving characteristically unflappable in his defence of third place – and had to be content with fourth position. “I wasn’t worried,” remarked Raikkonen after the race.

Verstappen finished fifth, setting a blistering new lap record in the process – a 1m11.044s after stopping for fresh tyres. This beat Juan Pablo Montoya’s Interlagos lap record from 2004 by over 0.4s.

From 14th on the grid, Ricciardo managed to carve his way into sixth position, while Felipe Massa won out in a thrilling fight for seventh with Fernando Alonso and Sergio Perez in the latter stages of the race.

It was an emotional home race for Massa, who spent the majority of the race duelling with former Ferrari team-mate Alonso, joining countryman Rubens Barrichello on the podium after the race to address the Brazilian crowd.

Nico Hulkenberg beat Renault team-mate Carlos Sainz Jr. for the final point, ahead of Toro Rosso’s Pierre Gasly who recorded his best finish in F1 with 12th.

Marcus Ericsson beat Sauber team-mate Pascal Wehrlein to 13th, as Sauber pushed back the announcement of their drivers for next season to at least  Abu Dhabi.

After his collision with Ocon, Romain Grosjean kept running in 15th, ahead of Stroll who suffered from a delaminating tyre after a heavy late lock-up.

Result – Brazilian GP 2017, Interlagos, 71 Laps

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Good performances by Seb, Kimi and Lewis. Either of them could have been driver of the day, but Lewis got it deservedly. Bottas not converting a pole into a win was very much expected by me. Really don't care for the guy, and Lewis clearly showed today that the car had the pace.

Honorable mentions for Massa, Alonso and Gasly. Solid performances from them. Honda appears to have picked things up lately, and look to be ending the McLaren-Honda relationship on a somewhat higher note than expected.

What the hell was Stroll doing? Clearly showing he's still extremely inconsistent. Steering under braking ultimately cost him his race.


and yet no mention of Dan Ric from you. Did you actually watch the race?


Yeah he did OK I guess. I dunno what driver of the day even means. You don't get any points for that.


Just because you are a Danny Ric fan, doesn't mean I have to mention him when I don't feel the need to. He drove a fine race, however he was outqualified by his team mate for the 13th time this season, took arguably too much risk in the first lap which resulted in his spin and then just did what he had to do. Beyond some nice overtakes, just nothing that special to me.



"doesn't mean I have to mention him when I don't feel the need to"

Hmm... well you did in your very comment above, yes? Don't worry mate experienced F1 journalists such as James Allen and Mark Hughes have given Ricciardo due credit for what he achieved in the race which was in parallel to what Hamilton achieved albeit in a faster car.


doesn't mean I have to mention him

Well said jordanb - don't allow yourself to be intimidated. Further down the thread they even have the temerity to complain to JA about the content of his article - for not giving DR enough credit (in their opinion). Cheek!


C63, some people only have eyes for their god Breus.....


I had the same feeling. I knew Vettel was going to jump Bottas at the start!


Why bother getting pole when your on the wrong side of the track..... Seb played this one to a T.


Yeah all four of those drivers were close at the end. I dunno how Hamilton ended up that close at the end..

That JPM lap record got broke too. I knew that would happen If it didn't rain. Everything is fairly set now so except for the race win there is not anything else for Abu Dhabi.

Ricciardo Aficionado

That JPM record was set when he was leading Schumacher by 34 seconds. If he'd had a more reliable car that year, Ham would be chasing seven titles instead of eight for the outright record.


How the hell does Hamilton get the driver of the day? He's in a car that is way faster than all but Ferrari, gets help from a safety car and several crashes. He then fails to pass Kimi - and they were both on old tires.
There are more than a few drivers who could have done the same in his car. Vettel clearly driver of the day and I am far from a Vettel fan.


Dani, do you think there are other drivers who could have done what Seb did?


Yeah I dunno why but 190 miles doesn't seem like much.


What did Vettel do that was in any way remarkable? Passed Bottas who left the door wide open and that was it.


does Hamilton get the driver of the day?

I believe it's some kind of vote - Bernie's nod to social media and retained by Liberty.


Because he is liked by most people, to the despair and disheartenment of the Hamilton antis, who have got their work cut out 😨😨.


Well he went from last to fourth. Even with a fast car it's not easy at Brazil.


He was about 25km/h faster and passed them well before the end of the straight, so easy is the correct description.


Bryce, like Perez?


Whilst he had to battle a little harder with Perez, in the overall context an easy run through the field still applies. Pretty sure Lewis said words to that effect as well.


Bryce, not that difficult, but some of the passes were more straightforward than others.


brand new, upgraded PU with more horsepower than the rest of the field
Long uphill straight
some qualy mode
up to 25km per hour faster on the main straight
passes 9 cars in 10 laps
walk in the park
Lewis would you like a latte with that??

I don't care for the DotD award, but if it's based on driving merit, Vettel, Alonso or Massa should get it.


Lkfe, upto 25 jph with drs! but to be fair, it's not as though you would ever describe Lewis' drive in any other terms is it? It's also true that you have no idea if Lewis drove better or worse than Felipe, Seb or Fernando on Sunday, so a bit of a pointless comment really....


It's all context Tim. Vettel drove flawlessly and controlled the race against a faster car. Felipe duelled for his position all day, outperformed his current spot in the performance order of the grid and held off late charges in the pressurised atmosphere of his last home grand prix. Fernando drove an under powered car up the tail of a merc powered competitor on a power circuit, and ended up well above the cars pay scale. There's my rationale....probably less pointless than saying someone is the driver of the day because they drove a faster car than anyone else?
For the record also i have given Lewis plenty of props this year when IMO they have been warranted....but that doesn't fit into your "Nth degree" argument modus operandi.


Lkfe, have you given Lewis "plenty of props"? When was this, what races? I'm more than happy to go back and have a look, and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Dotd is a personal choice, people vote based on what impressed them personally, there is no right or wrong answer, and no real point trying to correct people who you think voted for the wrong person. You weren't impressed with Lewis' drive because he had a faster car than the people he overtook, I have bad news for you, overtakes only ever happen because the guy behind has a faster car than the guy in front, that's how motorsport works. I see you are still clinging onto the 'Merc much faster than any other car' thing? What makes you think the Mercedes was faster than the Ferrari in Brazil? The 0.038 second pole advantage? Remember that Seb said he lost a lot of time in turn one, so probably should have been on pole.

Ricciardo Aficionado

So you think Seb would have beaten Ham if they were both on the front row?


That 0.38 advantage was with Bottas, Hamilton is always faster in Q3, so with the mighty LH driving, that would be more like .3 to .7
Also VET over took Kimi in the same car without team orders this season, did you see it?
Did you ever see the mighty LH over take his team mate without team orders this season? if so can you let me know, i must have missed it.


Jimothy. Maybe Lewis would have gone quicker in q3, but Seb says he could have gone quicker as well, so who knows? I believe Vet overtook Kimi in China? I think that was the only time, we have only seen Lewis pass Valterri with team orders this year, although we saw him overtake Nico lots of times without them in previous years.


Nico was different since the Mercs were always going to win both WDC and WCC, so LH had nothing to lose going for it.
This year, there was competition from Ferrari so he prefered to play it safe, LH is a great over taker when he has no pressure.


Jimothy, and none too shabby when under pressure either...


OK, let me know how you go!


Lkfe, you are supposed to be giving me a clue.....


It doesn't really matter. No points.


@ LKFE....did you forget that Ricciardo was there as well?


i think some did Ken...


@ ,and we all know who they are.


Because he needs a so-called dominant car to be that impressive? When he gets his car that well hooked up, the only thing that saves the drivers ahead of him, was often running out of laps or tyres. Silverstone 2013 was one example


Actually with such a fast car it is easy in Brazil, plenty of overtaking spots.


Really just one normally.


Well it's not too hard either when you have such a superior engined car at was his!!


In fact he worked out ~9 places only, the rest of them were gifted by the crash and drivers that went for pit stop at that moment.
Dani is spot on. Vet or Ricci were DODs.


If we accept your calculation of 9 places only (I don't BTW) then how does Ricci only making up 8 places outscore Ham?


@ the end of lap one Ricciardo was in 17th place! To finish 6th is, in total some eleven places...No?


Enough children! I have watched the race again for you, Hamilton was running 14th under the safety car with Daniel 17th. The places gained for Lewis were Occon, Kmag and Vandoorne who were all out, and Wehrlein Grosjean and Ricciardo who had pitted. Dan was running 17th and last.
After the safety car came in on lap five, Lewis overtook Brendan Hartly around the outside of turn 6 for 13th and Stroll for 12th on the start finish straight. Dan passed Grosjean on the pit straight and Wehrlein on the second drs zone at the start of lap seven. Lewis zapped Ericsson with drs at the start of lap eight, and did the same to Ghasly for p10 at the start of lap nine while Dan got by Hartley at the same time. Lewis got by Sainz on lap ten and Hulkenberg on lap eleven, both with drs, while Dan got by Lance in drs zone one and Ericsson in drs zone two. Ric zapped Ghasly for p 11 along the pit straight on lap 13 and Lewis did likewise to Perez for p7, although Sergio made him work for it by running him around the outside of the Senna esses. Dan blew by Sainz on the pit straight as if Carlos was standing still on lap 15. Fernando let Lewis through on lap 20 and Dan got by the Hulk out of sight of the cameras. Lewis got by Felipe in drs zone 2 on lap 21. Dan got by Perez on the pit straight on lap 29. After the stops Dan passed Alonso unseen on lap 45 and Massa along the pit straight on lap 47 and Lewis mugged Max in the same place on lap 59. I make that ten passes for Lewis and eleven for Daniel, although Lewis made on outside of the drs zones, while Dan made all of his with drs.


Now, stay seated, upright and with your feet together.


Were all of their overtakes on track Tim - none due to pit stops ?


C63, ooh good point! Maybe the reason Dan's pass on Alonso was unseen by the cameras was he jumped him in the pits? Looking at the race history graph it is unclear if Dan came out just behind Fernando and zapped him straight away, or he came out just ahead.


Having checked the race history graph and with the disclaimer of not being an expert at understanding it - I reckon that Dan pitted and came out in front of Alonso (just).
I therefore declare Hamilton the winner in the most impressive 'scythe through the field drive' as they both made 10 on track overtakes but Hamilton did one without the aid of DRS whereas all of Dans were done with the assistance of DRS 🙂


Thanks Tim for the research. It was interesting to read don't get me wrong but I watched the race again today primarily to watch the artistry of Lewis and Dan on track. And BTW I agree I'd give them joint equal driver of the day. Just imagine if they were team mates.


Adrian, Danny Ric denied that Ferrari was his dream in an interview I saw earlier today, he also said he will wait and see how good next years Red Bull is before deciding on his future, so maybe he will end up at Mercedes after all!



Yeah, I tracked that media report down. Interesting. But the reality for Dan is that if he is looking at either Merc or Ferrari he's got to get podium results next year not just "acceptable" points results. Would just beating Bottas on a regular basis and Occon not performing to the level expected get DR the gig at Merc? Don't know.

I was interested in Toto's comment as reported on NewsOnF1 where he said: "The question is what happens next. Do we want to keep this team dynamic? Or is the nuclear variant better for us [where a strong team mate relationship can often push the team forwards]. No doubt Lewis' relationship with Rosberg soured and Toto is not going to put someone with Lewis who he perceives as trouble. As you said in an earlier thread all Lewis wants from a team mate is that things are kept clean and I think DR would give him that.

One of our fellow posters stated in an earlier JA thread that in his opinion DR was somewhere between Rosberg and Lewis in talent. Interesting comment!


Adrian, it's difficult to know, I still think they will go with Occon, but young drivers stock can fall rapidly as we have seen with Wehrlein and Giovinazzi.


at the end of lap one Ricciardo was in 17th place!

At the start of lap oneHamilton was in 20th place and last. He finished 4th - I make that 16 places...No?



Does all this analysing over numbers really matter? Are you prepared to acknowledge that BOTH Dan and Lewis had fine drives?


Are you prepared to acknowledge that BOTH Dan and Lewis had fine drives?

Of course they both had fine drives - no doubt about it and I never suggested otherwise.


@ C63...What you neglect to recognise is that Hamilton, according to james, made up six places after the corner two tangle! Therefore on completion of the first lap which marks the start of actual recorded race, Ricciardo was dead last , 17th, and Hamilton was fourteenth. Do the sums and see where that takes you....11 beats 10 in my well as in a seriously compromised car, performance wise. Ricci gets the edge...IMO of course.


completion of the first lap which marks the start of actual recorded race

Honestly Kenneth, I have seen you make some strange claims on this forum but this has to be the best. The race starts when the red lights go out not at the end of the first lap.
Don't get me wrong - Ham made up a number of places easily (in part thanks to Dans over optimism at the start) but the fact of the matter is that Ham started from the pit lane, dead last in 20th place and made it up to 4th.
You can argue all you want about who had it easiest [making it through the field] but you cannot argue with those facts.


Yeah, have a look here:

I see Hamilton’s BRA17 effort on there, but not Ricciardo's.

Anyone critical of Max trying around the outside of turn 1 at Spain, would need to be equally critical of Ricciardo trying it around the outside of turn 2 in Brazil. Both were high risk moves on the first lap.



Why would anyone need to be "equally critical" of Ricciardo? I would have to see more vision of DR's move around the outside of turn 2 in Brazil to ascertain the level of risk (if it could be calculated) compared to what Max did in Spain but there's one differing factor and that is the outcome. DR survived Max didn't. From what I saw Dan drove into an open space whereas Max drove into a rapidly closing corner. But really no one is going to look back on Brazil 2017 with this level of analysis. But people might look back at season 2017 as a year that Max needed to develop his race craft to become a more complete driver.


Adrian, even Ricc accepted partial responsibility for placing himself in a risky situation in the post race interviews. He certainly wasn't to 'blame' (as it were) but he did put himself in harms way and if anything went wrong with the others he was always going to be in trouble.



Agreed, it was a risky move by DR. One of those moves that either come off or don't. I saw in a media report where he said that he didn't regret taking it because being down in P14 he had to try something. As it was it dropped him down to P17 from which he recovered to P6, the maximum he could have achieved, so perhaps it wasn't necessary to attempt it anyway. But that's all hindsight. Drivers obviously make decisions sometimes on the spur of the moment.


@ Adrian...the only reason the 'shadow' brought that up was try an get an edge. There is none. He knows that, but he'll try nonetheless. Good post.


Who's the shadow, me or C63? I like it!

"As you sow evil, so shall you reap evil! Crime does not pay...The Shadow knows!"


@ KRB....You are 'shadow 2' and we all know who the 'shadow 1' is.

'I know, because the Shadow knows all.' Remnants of my childhood radio entertainment...along with the
'Green Hornet' which was originally broadcast in 1936/39 IIRC .


I think (but I'm not 100%) that kenneth has taken to referring to Tim and yourself as the shadow - but don't quote me on that, I might be a shadow as well 🙂


@ C63...hahahah you nailed it..well done. Small Corona in the mail.


What about 20-4=16 but only 9 on track?


Sold to the man in the corner at somewhere between sixteen and nine


In your mind only Alan. Check the official DOD result....have a little looksey at the 2017 WDC table too if you like.
As you were. 😀


Massa got the better customer engine modes for his farewell present from Mercedes. He'll be driving their FE cars perhaps?


I was hoping that you'll be glad to know that the race record was broken. This may satisfy you as a confirmation of what we've all known. That the current PU is faster, more durable and efficient than any previous era engine. The only reason that we don't see them breaking the records much more often is that there's no refuelling anymore that gave drivers the opportunity to opt for aggressive strategy.


That and the fact all that downforce probably slows you down in a place like Monza.


Give a V10 F2004 car these non grooved wider tires and the extra gear in the gear box and see the magic happen, even without 13 years of aero and suspension developments.


Sebee, these none grooved tyres still generate less grip than the tyre war rubber used in 'the golden age', and I have tried to explain to you before why an eight speed gearbox with set ratios wouldn't generate anymore performance than a seven speed with free choice of ratios.


I dunno I don't remember Pirelli tires then. That should be worth something in the wrong direction.


Yeah, Massa looks like he's very interested in FE!


The Vettel Bottas battle was over quicker than a streak of weasel pee !
Otherwise the racing hinged on Lewis -v- Max, [Max bites the dust for once]

The bigger battle was Kimi -v- Lewis, with Kimi victorious against the best of Merc power with all engine modes blazing. As Murray Walker used to say: this is the Maginot line and here you shall not pass!


His tires were gone by then. Really Mercedes should have locked the front row but they didn't and Vettel wasnt exactly faster than Bottas but he was at the start and it was enough. Both cars were pretty equal. The Ferrari had the advantage in sector two. Hamilton was faster in clean air but came from too far back.


I do not accept that the inherent capabilities and limits of the Ferrari is what Vettel is showing. The lack of competition in this Ferrari team must mean alot of pace is being left on the table. You can be sure Hamilton is operating at the uptimum of this Mercedes, with a couple of balls being dropped of course, as is inevitable for any driver in a season's campaign. Hamilton will always have his technical sparrings with Rosberg as a benchmark.


Could be but I would think 5 seconds would have been better than 2. Bottas should have laid back further and then tried a run.


The bigger battle was Kimi -v- Lewis....

To be fair Ham started dead last and finished 4th whilst Kimi started 3rd and finished 3rd. By the time Ham had clawed his way onto the back of Kimi’s gearbox he had used the best of his tyres and was struggling for traction out of slower corners - giving Kimi just enough breathing space to stay ahead .


Kimi did outqualify Hamilton, sure you could blame the crash but that wasnt kimis fault.


Kimi did outqualify Hamilton

I'm not sure what your point is/was. I haven't disputed the fact that Kimi out qualified Ham nor did I excuse Ham's mistake in Q1. The point I was making was; by the time Ham caught Kimi (having started dead last and Kimi in 3rd) he'd used the best of his tyres. Kimi, in comparison, had been mooching along in 3rd place without any pressure and consequently had tyres which were in better nick.


Chicken and egg. Had he taken it easy with his tyres, Lewis would not have been in a position to attempt a pass, despite having already extended his proposed first stint to allow for fewer laps on the SS


Exactly, thats why he should have helped VB and the team go for a possible win, he was never going to be on the podium.


No argument from me there Bryce - the thing I was trying to get across is; that making your way through the field from dead last (fast car or not) will inevitably take a greater toll on the tyres than someone who is maintaining position without any pressure.


Did Murray used to say that? He does know the history with the Maginot Line, right?


The Maginot Line - something that was once thought of as rock solid but is now thought of as pretty much irrelevant and useless. Seems pretty apt for Kimi.



Seems Kimis fans have deserted him - or maybe they agree 🙂


I don't recall Murray saying that, but given his habit of getting it wrong he might well have 🙂


I think Murray was “very much mistaken!”


Simply go around it, just like Lewis did on Max. Geez that merc was quick today.


Max was the only one , besides Kimi, that resisted Lewis for only one corner. After that the extreme power of the engine and the DRS made an easy pass possible.


No argument from me, as like I stated elsewhere, only the red cars had any chance of keeping that merc behind.


I suspect you are about to prove that Murray W didn't know the first thing about the Maginot line.....


Krb, he should, he was there!




Steering under braking is a basic racing technique. It's called trail braking.


I understand that. Just pointing out what caused his tire failure, as he himself seemed to be somewhat confused about what was "sticking out of his tire".


Lord stroll won’t be nowhere close to f1 if not for daddy money...cut him some slack for fighting amongst some professionals 😉


Stroll....He doesn't know what a blue flag is for a start.


no, the national flag is for a start


Twas an OK race rather than a classic, spiced up by Ricciardo and Hamilton. Shame we missed most of the Perez alonso Massa battle. Not sure who gets DOTD though...possibly Ham who had much more to do today than in many of his victories, or Ricciardo for the many of his late lunges on the brakes. Vettel did what he is good at and controlled from the front. Raikkonen is always the not even nearly man these days and is driving for the paycheck I feel.
Bottas was massively underwhelming and given he finished about 5 secs ahead of his teammate who started in the pits should have a large degree of soul searching to do. There was pace aplenty in the Merc today, even accounting for the older engine. Verstappen - no excitement today. And to Massa - obrigado and goodnight!


Not wishing to be a downer but didn't Massa rabbit on a bit too much? What's with all these Brazilians? Even Barrrichello got in on the act...that guy just doesn't know when to butt out. He was probably chasing Williams for a drive if the truth be known. hahahah


Downer, there you go.


Favorite funny moment of the race?

When the graphic came up showing the whole field did 3 stops...on lap 4.
Little low tech on that timing script code, no Liberty? Counting pit lane entry as stops.

As bad as that "race lap record" graphic. It's called a fastest lap record you Saturday hype sellers! It's what matters and what goes in the books.


Twas the type of race where upon ending I said to myself, and I quote: "glad I got my treadmill distance in."


@Sebee We need to know you’re contingency plans for delayed starts:
Do you sit out if the race start is delayed due to rain or other reasons?
If the race starts behind the safety car, do you just jog for the first few laps until Berndt pulls into the pits and then increase the speed?
What about the different races speeds, do you run slower for longer at Monaco, but faster for less time for Monza?
What about for Safety Cars, do you jog for those laps?
How do you keep the ‘delta in positive’ for the VSC.
We need to know these things! 🏃


Axel, it can be brutal!

There was a rain delayed race year or two ago that really made me sick - giant headache from dehydration. Had to sleep that off. I didn't bring enough with me for that possibility. I really don't want to remember that race.

Once I start, there is no stop until the checker is thrown. If it's a stopped race or stretches out due to SC/rain/etc. I stay rolling. Start at lights out, stop at flag.

Only interruption is those stupid automatic 60 minute cool downs set in the treadmill I guess for health/safety reasons, which I circumvent via a stop/restart every 60 minutes. That's a 20s reset process.

Monza, I usually run faster because it's always a shorter race.

About 20 laps to the end I increase the gradient/slope. It's not really specific, I pick a number based on laps remaining. Something round and representative of 1/4-1/3 total distance.

There are no provisions for VSC or other delays. I keep it simple, keep going.

I can come on here and complain about the entertainment value while treadmilling, but reality is that I am always satisfied when a Grand Prix ends, and I always get something out of it. 🙂


And, more to the point, does he stop and refuel or just run from start to finish stopping once to change his footwear? (this could go on and on)


Good question. I wear these, they last the whole race! 🙂

Yes, I bring fuel with me, but as noted above, in V10 mode, sometimes it's not enough. Quite often i even bring a coffee!


What was your prediction for non-Merc wins this year? Certainly wasn't eight, I know that.


Krb, it was three, then four, then five, then the subject was quietly dropped.....


What was your prediction for non-Merc wins this year

Lol - by the end of the season both Sebee and Dean Cassidy will be patting each other on the back and telling us they got it just about right in this MMC. You see if I'm wrong 🙂


This is exactly what Mercedes wanted if they wanted to telegraph "competition" after 3 years of domination.

Wonder if they will play it this way in 2018 or if we're back to domination?

Clearly this car is capable of domination if they chose to. Couple of obvious throw aways early in the season and then Malaysia - which is really still unexplained outside of the fact that apparently mighty Mercedes either sent out their pole sitter with an undercharged car, or that Lewis doesn't know how to charge up the ERS on the formation lap, or that after being fully charged Lewis used up all ERS in the first few laps to try to get a gap to Max, but magically Max was able to keep up with the might of Mercedes full out engine mode and still had power to spare to pass him. Or better yet, they turned down the engine and let Max have one where it wouldn't cost Mercedes a thing for the good of the show.

Anyhow, Mercedes played ball this season. Don't wrap yourself in that blanket KRB feeling all warm and fuzzy. They have the performance to dominate this field if and when they want to, as illustrated in Monza without any doubt.


Oh geez. I don't know why you watch then, if you truly believe that.

Monza is a one-off ... it's raw power, and on that the Mercedes is better than the Ferrari. At other races though, the Merc looked like a boat, when it was trying to turn in. It looked ridiculous on some of the onboards.



I watch for the sound! You know that.


Not that the red cars are slow, but that boat looked pretty comfortable cruising around the outside of the supposedly sticky Bull when passing Max on Sunday.


Lewis did say he let Max past in Malaysia, Maybe Lewis had his mind elsewhere that day, and didnt feel like fighting?
Relationship trouble has hampered him before.


Silly. Red Bull was clearly quicker in Malaysia (Ricciardo finished 34 secs ahead of Bottas), so there was no sense in Lewis trying to hold Max back for the entire race. He wouldn't have been able to, and it just would have cost him in total race time.


So what, Hamilton has beaten Bottas by that much in the same car, Bottas was slow that day, its not the first time he was off the pace either.


Maybe Lewis had his mind elsewhere that day

What a ridiculous thing to claim. Ham had his mind exactly where it needed to be, and that was on the WDC. He was well aware that all he needed to do was finish in front of Vet [to extend his championship advantage] and that's what he did. No point in throwing it all away like Vet did at Singapore.


It just shows that Vettel dosent get intimidated like Ham, people think VET shoud have just let MV past, i dont agree, dont show fear.
Lewis fears Max and now Max now knows it.
Max says BOO, Lewis just moves aside, not really the racer his fans claim.


As his car has generally lacked outright pace to get near the front row, I don't think Lewis has as yet had any great reason to fear Max as they have never truly raced. Lewis doesn't mind a bit of push and shove, but expect a lot of complaints from his fans if and when they are actually racing and Max tries his thus far preferred barging approach.

Quite looking forward to seeing the to and fro between their respective supporters once the seemingly inevitable fireworks have commenced.


Max tries his thus far preferred barging approach.

The only reason that he could take that approach is because he wasn't in a fight for the WDC and Ham/Vet were. Horner, Max and Dan have all said they wouldn't be taking any prisoners and they would treat each race as a cup final. That attitude will have to change if they have aspirations to win either of the championships so it will depend a great deal on how competitive they are next year.


people think VET shoud have just let MV past

I don't think Vet should have just let MV go but I do think he would have been wise to show a little more caution. After all the tactics employed by Vet at Singapore clearly weren't very successful were they? Part of the art of being a successful GP driver is knowing when to fight and when to let it go - what do you think Vet would do if he could have the start at Singapore again? The same thing or would he do it differently?
Oh, and your attempts to try and wind me up are far too obvious . Max says BOO . Must try harder 🙂


But the thing is, Vettel cleared MV, thats why he needed to tap Kimi, Sure Seb would do it differently now that he knows MV would rather crash than lose a place, LH would have learned something from that too, as you saw in Malaysia.
Could you imagine a grid with 20 MV's? if they all drove like him at the start, you would be lucky to get 10 finishers per race.
Dont get me wrong, MV is great but he really needs to calm down.


now that he knows MV would rather crash than lose a place,

He knew that before the race - Max had said as much. Maybe he didn't believe him and wanted to call his bluff - who knows. But Max cannot play that game if he is in a competitive car as you don't wage successful championship campaigns by crashing on a regular basis - the cars are so reliable nowadays that one or two DNF's will finish your chances.


Exactly, Max and Horner both said it was going to happen if Seb dosent yield.
Seb was in P1, he didnt have to yield, he wasnt going to get bullied, so Max just dives in saying move or we both crash, how can that be Sebs fault?


he didnt have to yield, he wasnt going to get bullied,

You are absolutely correct - he didn't have to yield. But as he was fighting for a WDC, and effectively threw away his challenge at that moment, would he have been wise too? I (and many others) would say yes. He was up against another driver with nothing to lose and he had everything to lose - yet he chose to put it all on the line. For what? Has he achieved anything, drawn a line in the sand? Max didn't back off in Mexico did he - so Vettel taking a stand and showing he won't be bullied by Max didn't work did it. So, as tactics go, it has been proven to be quite a poor one by Vettel - would you disagree?


A good description. On a positive note for the remaining MV's, they would all be in the points.


With the benefit of hindsight, it's clear after another rather disappointing race for Bottas just how good Nico Rosberg was, and you can bet Merc F1 are missing his driving. If Lewis Hamilton had an off day or a reliability issue, the younger Rosberg was always there to capitalise - and win. Bottas, alas...........

Just as in Mexico, a golden opportunity for Bottas was squandered. Giving him a contract for 2018 does look misplaced. If the Silver Arrows had a big pair of knackers, then they would put Ocon alongside Hammy for 2018...............but then Bottas TP is also his manager. Conflict of interest...........he really is not top dog level, and should be given the Mr Burns treatment after a really poor 2nd half of 2017 (harsh, but - it's a waste of a brilliant Mercedes in my view).

Great comeback drive from Hammy - and a worthy contender for DOTD............but my man of the moment is Fernando Alonso, who yet again put his gonads on the line - and his McHonda on the limit - all for 8th place, which is way ahead of his car's potential. He's always tries his absolute hardest - even if it's just for a few crumbs. That new Renault powered McLaren can't come quickly enough.........

I'm sure when Alonso goes to sleep this evening, he will be thinking in bed: "Just one more weekend with that awful Honda powerplant, just one more weekend............"


I think it is commonly accepted that previous years cars (in the hybrid era) were easier to drive than the current spec, meaning that it was more difficult to spot the 'great' drivers from the merely 'good' ones. Therefore we cannot assume that Rosberg would have outperformed Bottas this year.


Rosberg would be at very short odds to easily outperform Bottas, no matter the vehicle type.


Gazboy, maybe Nico would have struggled with these cars more than Bottas, who knows....or cares?!

Ricciardo Aficionado

I doubt that. He'd be super quick in this "diva".


Ricciardo, you have no idea if that's true or not.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Rosberg pushed Hamiltin the whole time. Ham only looks so good now because; A. Ros pushed him to another level and B. Bottas is nowhere bear that level.
Trust me, Rosberg would not be coming home second to Ferraris and Redbulls this year...


What of 2018?

We have this battle on our hands with Liberty. Mercedes and Ferrari are all chummy apparently, as you're always chummy when ypu have the competition's number on track. Sure, the appearance of a battle between those two is a good thing and helped in 2017 after those 3 seasons, but somehow I feel that Mercedes have now done it, and will go back to total domination, maybe inner team battle for 2018. Just in case they don't get what they want from Liberty, dominating season helps to make a point to Liberty about playing ball, and is a nice insurance performance in case they opt to pull out/sell the team. Mercedes played ball this year, even letting the new boy Max pass Lewis for P1 on track...on merit!

Could be a turbulent year for Lewis too that 2018, with his contract renewal talks, talk that 2018 car will suit Bottas more, those 3 PUs per season rules ensuring reliability plays a much bigger role. Would Mercedes want to go into negotiations with Lewis in such position of power in said negotiations? Having Lewis in second spot in WDC standings behind his team mate may help Mercedes negotiate a better deal.


but then Bottas TP is also his manager

That's not correct Gaz - Toto used to be a shareholder in the company which managed Bottas but he sold his shares before/when Mercedes hired Bottas. I'm not defending Bottas BTW, I thought he was strangely lacklustre in the race - but then the same could be said of Ham during quali....


Not so much to show how good Rosberg was but to highlight how weak Bottas is.
Hamilton lost a WC to Rosberg of all people and now has an even weaker teamate.


Hamilton lost a WDC to reliability, not to his team mate.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Kinda splitting hairs there mate.


Not in the context of Lewis vs team mate.

Ricciardo Aficionado

If Lewis had Bottas as team mate last year who do you think would have been champion?
You underestimate Rosberg's endeavour.


You mean like Vettel this year? If you blame reliability last year then you would have to blame it for Vettel losing out to Ham this year.


Yes, and I think that's a fair point. It would be a much more interesting end to the season had Ferrari not suffered reliability, and if Vettel had not caused a crash in Singapore.

If someone wants to go through the same exercise I did for 2016 - discounting all race results where either Nico or Lewis suffered reliability, and totting up the points scored in the other races, I'd be interested to see where Seb and Lewis stand right now.

Interesting that you chose to turn a comment about Lewis v teammate into one about Lewis v Sebastien - betrays an agenda, I suspect.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Reliability and driver error you'd have to agree


No you wouldn't. Hamilton could have had mechanical DNF's in Brazil and Abu Dhabi, and still have won. That would more than equal Seb's mechanical unreliability, which was a DNF in Japan and having to start at the back in Malaysia.


But if he had broken down in any other 2 races, VET would still be in with a shot, Ham had no pressure after Singapore.
You cant say Singapore was Sebs fault either, he would have got a penalty if that was true.


As TimW said, penalties for incidents like that at the start of races are rare, and even more rare this season.

Max summed it up correctly:

"When you’re fighting for the championship and then try to be that aggressive at the start when Lewis is behind you, quite comfortably, it’s not I think the smartest move to do."

I said Lewis could have 2 DNF's ... two no-scores, and still win. That's not what Vettel had though. He had 1 DNF, and 1 mech failure in qualifying, which meant he started last, from which he rose to 4th. If we're cautious, and just give Hamilton a 6th from a forced start from the back, then even if there were 2 races now, Vettel would not be able to make it up.

43 (current pts gap)
+8 (from a DNF and 6th place)
-50 (max haul for Seb in 2 races)
+1 = Hamilton still wins

As the article states, the big points swing from Singapore was the major turning point in the season.


Jimothy, if Seb had stayed on the racing line in Singapore, would the accident have happened? Penalties are rarely given at the start of races.


If MV backed off once he realized he was only ever going to be P3, would it have happened? MV saw Kimi coming, he knew he got a better start, he just thought SV has a WDC at stake, he will move.
It didnt happen that way as SV was entitled to take that line, he was in P1, he actually cleared MV


That summary is exactly correct.


Jimothy, Max did back off, but he had nowhere to go, Seb had a lot more to lose than either of the other two drivers involved, and so should have been more circumspect.


Hmm, we must have a different interpretation of the meaning of the word "cleared". Seb wasn't totally in front of Max ... and Seb swerving over didn't help matters much in that regard (that whole Pythagorean thing y'know).


Watch the race start from Hamiltons car and you can see that SV clears max.
Max should have backed off earlier when he saw Kimi coming up much faster, it should have been obvious to him that he was only ever going to be P3 unless the Ferraris got scared and let him through, but why would 2 drivers with 5 WDC's between them move for a slower Red bull?


then you would have to blame it for Vettel losing out to Ham this year.

No you wouldn't. How many points did Vet lose to reliability this season and how many did Ham (remember Bacu was an easy win for Ham). Give everything back to both drivers and Vet still loses.


I can't see it changing the result and note that the VER supporters have been very quiet about reliability issues of late.


@ Bryce...Yes, it has been noted. The usual 'prayer meetings' have been put on temporary ,hold ATM.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Don't worry reliability was not an issue this year... For Ham.


Now don't give Bottas a hard time. He is faster than KR. He usually gets good starts but not this time.


Fair point but Kimi is 38!!!!


Whilst I see his run of nightmares continuing next season as he watches the Honda get the junior bulls on terms with his car and the senior team still ahead. Still, I hope not.


All won at the start really, I thought Bottas gave it up a little bit too easily, but maybe I'm being a bit harsh. That should put 2nd in the title battle to bed, I think it would be a bit harsh on Vettel to lose it. Hamilton's comeback was about par I'd say, I think Mercedes had an advantage here but it was narrow.

Lots of good subplots in the midfield - Perez has a decent gap to Ocon now (I thought Grosjean's penalty was harsh given it was opening lap jostling for position), Alonso is back ahead of Vandoorne, Massa back ahead of Stroll, Hulk got the better of Sainz. Still a chance that Renault pip Toro Rosso, which will probably not make the Red Bull squad happy...


I remember all the flack Vettel got for being too aggressive at the start in Singapore, which i dont agree with but at least it showed Vettel dosent get intimidated easily.
Maybe VB just took the safe option like LH in Malaysia, when he let Max intimidate him?


like LH in Malaysia, when he let Max intimidate him?

Maybe a thinner line or perhaps a smaller hook next time you go fishing 🙂


He knew MV was in win or bust mode, so yes he took the safe option.


Yeps... and won his 4th WDC because of it... pretty cool really👍🏻


so yes he took the safe option.

You are correct in that he took the safe (I would say sensible) option. But that's not the same as being intimidated by him.


C63, another armchair psychologist, this place is full of em!


Lol - I can't recall hearing any criticism of Ham at Malaysia from anyone part from the anti's. Not the commentary teams, the pundits like JYS etc - only the anti's are trying to make something of it. Agenda?


TimW, as an armchair psycologist, i am still allowed an opinion.
Not all of us are professional F1 experts like you unfortunately.


Jimothy, of course you are allowed your opinion, and so am I.


You never know but the math now looks bad for Bottas. Even 15 points means you have to win both races with Vettel finishing one race lower than second. That really didn't look good before Brazil.


Ridiculously harsh on GRO for mine, at any time, let alone in a supposed let them race era.


I didn’t get to see the start of the race but when I read this article my immediate thought was “first lap nut-job”.
I really became a fan of GRO after he came back from being suspended a few years ago, but this season, he seems to have slipped back to his old ways. I feel that his time in F1 may run out very soon.


Axel, I think Haas needs two new drivers really. Kmag has turned into a crash magnet, and seems to be deeply unpopular with the other drivers due to his over aggressive driving, and Romain seems incapable of keeping his cool when things go wrong. Maybe they could take one of the Ferrari youngers, and get Rossi back?

Ricciardo Aficionado

I became a fan of Grosjean since watching the drivers briefings. He's very vocal.


GRO dosent like HAM very much, there was an article recently where GRO got Mercs full power mode at SPA 2015, and he was .8 sec per lap faster because of it.
I think after that race he realized that the Merc drivers are nothing special, the customer teams were getting an engine .8 secs slower

Ricciardo Aficionado

Thanks for the info. Very interesting. I had noticed he seems to have it in for Lewis in those briefings...


I don’t mind Grosjean being in F1, I have no idea where talk of him deserving a move up the grid comes from...


The Nutter was Magnussen.. not GRO!


Congratulation to Vettel on fine win although this will only make him wonder what might have been had he had not made mistakes/had mechanical DNF's earlier in the season . Vettel needs to use the win today and Abu Dhabi to send out a clear warning to Lewis ahead of next season . Impressive recovery drives from Hamilton and Ricciardo . Kimi has another anonymous race and Bottas is still lacking something . Max had a rather understated race by his recent high standards


What was so impressive by RIC and HAM???
The top three teams are so much faster then the rest. So for either of them getting into the top 6 was certain. Especially with the SC coming in.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Ric's double overtake was move of the day. But I CANNOT find it anywhere on youtube!! Very impressive so I've heard.
Don't know about Ham... Almost got a podium or something. Had a fortunate safety car (which DR had a hand in...) check this out for precision driving. Then have another think about Baku and what all that meant.


Had a fortunate safety car

According to JA the safety car did not help Ham's cause. He'd have been better off without it at that stage of the race.

Ricciardo Aficionado

"Better off without it..." is a stretch.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Well c63 I am not usually one to question JA's profound knowledge and wisdom regarding f1 but please enlighten me how he came to such a conclusion. Methinks it may be a case of the contraries...


please enlighten me how he came to such a conclusion

It's in the race analysis article.
'The accidents at the start helped Hamilton’s cause, boosting him to 14th place from 20th, but the Safety Car didn’t help him particularly.
That’s because when he was racing he was able to pick off one car every lap – and two per lap in the early stages.
So the five laps behind the Safety Car meant five fewer opportunities to overtake in the early stages and gain ground.'

Ricciardo Aficionado

Sounds like pure conjecture rather than fact.
Does it account for the gaps between cars with and without the SC?
Its highly likely that the regularity with which Hamilton picked off the bottom nine was contributed to by the SC bunching them up. That seems logical.


Sounds like pure conjecture

Take it up with JA if you disagree - he said it not me. One thing that has been overlooked though is just how much the SC (that he helped create) saved Ric's bacon. He'd have lost 20 odd seconds to the pack after the crash and pitting for new boots would have cost another 20 seconds - I doubt he'd have made it up to 6th with a 40 odd second deficit at the end of lap 1.

Ricciardo Aficionado

If there was no SC then there was no incident and DR wouldn't need new boots.
As for taking it up with JA... He can justify himself if he's perturbed by my opinion. Something tells me he isn't.


perhaps this one ? @ 2:00

Ricciardo Aficionado

Thanks TC. An appreciated link to be sure.


RA, I thought it was going to be a clip of Seb repeatedly accelerating and braking behind the safety car on Sunday, but it's of Seb overtaking Ricciardo in China, how does that relate to Baku?

Ricciardo Aficionado

It's the wheel bump TW. You see the precision with which DR and SV touched? It's like poetry in motion.
Conclusion... A bit of f1 wheel bumping is a thing of beauty to behold. Not the next great societal scourge leading our children down the path to ruin as some were prone to suggest after Baku.


Ra, an accidental wheel bump while racing for position is one thing, a deliberate bump while behind the safety car is quite another.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I can assure you the touch in the clip was quite deliberate


RA, so Danny Ric rammed Seb on purpose? Can you imagine the furore if Lewis did that?

Ricciardo Aficionado

I'm sure it's happened already Tim. The furore depends on the result. Mostly it's just racing.
However in no measure did DR "ram" Vettel in that clip.


Seb repeatedly accelerating and braking behind the safety car

I noticed that at the time and when I re-watched the race it was glaringly obvious. On C4 DC even remarked upon it and said something about what a good tactic it was - apart from it being expressly forbidden I suppose it was! How did Seb get away with that?


C63, he got away with it because Valterri wasn't daft enough to be right up his gearbox....


I’m sorry.. you lost me...
I literally have no clue what you are trying to say.



"I’m sorry.. you lost me..."

I think you've lost us! Not once have you used the word "talent" in relation to Daniel and Lewis and what's required to effect passes on tracks at upwards of 300kmph. Haven't you been listening to the commentators talk about Daniel's ability to carry extra speed into corners and confidence in late braking to get through traffic? Its not all about having a fast car under you.


Excuse me?! If you read some of my other comments you would know how high I rate RIC and especially HAM. But not by his 4 WDC or his pole record. That’s 50% car. But because of his driving skill, the way he turns in a corner, the way he applies the throttle etc.

Same goes for VET, VER etc.
And also ALO, who I admire for the same skill.
But somehow ALO didn’t manage to pass MAS. Yet HAM and RIC did. So I guess in your words, ALO is not as talented as HAM, RIC, who had the talent to effect passes on tracks at upwards of 300kmph!



Let's go back to your question above: "What's so impressive by RICC and HAM?" The answer is not just their ability to effect the passes they did but the entertainment value they brought to the race. Take out their slicing through the traffic and it would have been a pretty mundane race to watch, hence the television coverage primarily focusing on their exploits. But here's a question for you: If you believe what they achieved as being nothing special how would you then characterize their drives from respective 'dead last' positions on the grid to the edge of podium finishes, more so in the case of Lewis?Nothing special? What was expected of them? I don't know you tell me. If experienced F1 journalists like James Allen and Mark Hughes make special mention of it I would suggest their drives were anything but ordinary. But you are entitled to your opinion.


I respect everybody’s opinion.
Ofcourse HAM and RIC spiced up the show, but that was because nothing really happened anywhere. Only the MAS/ALO battle maybe.
But you have to remember that the Mercedes and RB are easy top 6 cars.
Every race the worst driver of the top 3 teams usually finish around 20 seconds on average in front of the first non top 3 teams. And now it is suddenly something special that a Mercedes and a RB pass a Sauber/TR/Haas/McLaren/FI and Williams??
RIC had some nice overtakes, but a RB passing a Sauber doesn’t make me jump out from my seat.
RIC finished 16 sec behind VER, who even made an extra pitstop. So without it, it would have been around 35. At the restart he was only 5 seconds behind VER. Yet he finished 20! seconds in front of P7!! If that doesn’t show you his RB was way faster then those he passed, I don’t know what else to say.
Hamilton had the fastest car on track period. On +35 old S‘s he was still lapping in the mid to high 1.12. His pass on ALO in Mexico was way more brilliant then anything he did in Brazil.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I was answering your question, what was so impressive about Ric and Ham...
I couldn't link to any of Ric's overtakes so I linked to another impressive piece of wheel to wheel (literally) action. Bumping wheels at race pace and under control is a precedent for Vettel's wheel bumping in Baku. All under control...


Bumping wheels at race pace is undoubtedly a skill - bumping wheels under SC conditions because of an imagined slight is something else altogether and is certainly not skilful in any way .

Ricciardo Aficionado

Precision mate.
Same as DR on Kimi at Monaco.
Unlike Vettel in Mexico. That was a lunge. Professional foul some might say.
Baku was just a good honest shove in the chest. With hindsight, Vettel got a bit huffy over nothing bud I don't think it was dangerous. Especially not as these guys can do it around corners at racing speeds.


I don't think it was dangerous

Only in so far as it would set a dangerous precedent I guess [if Vet was allowed to get away with it]. Sporting competitions have rules and the competitors are required to abide by those rules or there will be chaos. Imo it is unacceptable for one competitor to mete out justice to another as they see fit and not expect there to be consequences. The ref (stewards in this case) are in charge of whether one competitor has breached the rules and what action should result - not the competitors. Vet felt that he had been slighted (telemetry proved he was wrong) and attempted to take the law into his own hands and was always heading for a fall once he'd done so.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I agree. We don't want F1 to become bumper cars. But as a one-off flashpoint it was quite an entertaining flashpoint.
Besides that it IS actually necessary (within the rules and that to a stretch) for the drivers to stake out their ground on track. Just as Max has done. Just as Senna did. If other drivers are wary around one then that is a great advantage in wheel to wheel.


Baku was simply stupidity and rightly treated as such. The only thing danger was ego.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Yep. And one of the few incidences Seb contributed to losing the Championship.


@ Andre....The difference was obvious!!! Hamilton had a superior car with superior speed. The Red Bull had Ricciardo in a car that had limited power by comparison.


Limited power yes, but overall the RB was still the third fastest team on lap times. RIC was lapping mostly in the the hight 1.12 low 1.13 for most of the race while the first non top 6 car was lapping mostly mid 1.13 to mid 1.14. That’s why RIC finished 20 sec in front of Massa.

The gap between the top 3 teams and the rest has been big the whole year. On the average the other teams finish +20 sec from the worst top3 team driver in the race. And only in SPA, CAN, AZB, SIN and MEX they finished in the top 5.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Ok I see your point. But I think the RB dealing with all those Merc powered cars pretty impressive.


Which is why he had to brake extremely late and make it stick into the first corner to have a chance of getting through, unlike the merc that passed on the straight.


Bryce, you might want to watch those overtakes again...


I do want to watch them again, as I usually record all races and will see them generally play out as per my comment.


Bryce, pay special attention to Lewis' passes on Hartley and Perez, and Ricciardo's on Sainz.


@ Andre...Thanks for your confirmation. Red Bull are third fastest. Just proveds how dominant that Mercedes really is. In case you missed it, Hamilton stated in an interview that he just gets out front and then turns down the engine, managing his track domination. Now consider the margin Mercedes had when winning the WCC and that with conservative speeds, then imagine what they could really do if they pushed!!!

Ricciardo Aficionado

So it begs the question.... How early on (before we knew about it) were team orders employed at Merc? Because Ham and Ros whilst all that time leading races together never cleared out by a margin of a minute or so... So they must have been out front cruising. In that case where were all the Multi 21 incidents?? There weren't any because the drivers were under team orders the whole time and quite content following them. Mostly because mostly Rosberg was behind anyway and he never once looked close to overtaking Ham. It took until Spain (and Ham) to flout the team orders. Look how that turned out. Then suddenly Toto an Lauda start talking about bringing in team orders. Like it was a new idea!! I swear if there was an Oscars Championship Toto and Merc would be just as dominant. Toto is ALMOST as good an actor as Arnie.
At least with Lauda you're not entirely sure if he's acting. You know he blamed Lewis for Spain.
You read too much around here and you might have missed that.
BTw Kenneth what exactly is your problem with Hamikton? Is it him or is it the fans. I think they can both be pretty annoying but I'll give credit where it's due... They're both (Ham and his fans, not his two fans) very passionate about what they do. And they love each other immensely. Which is great. I admire them for it.
I hope you're part of the 61% Kenneth. Equality for all! Adios muchachos.


@ RA.... My problem with Hamilton? I don't have one. He's an extremely good and talented driver as i have repeatedly stated time after time but which you obviously haven't read or if you have, have chosen to ignore it. IMO Hamilton is not the 'god' that so many think he is. It is that simple.I also happen to believe that given the 'advantage' he's had with the car [lauda's comments] he's had a rails run. There are other drivers, once again IMO, that could do the same given the car. As for your final sentence....don't ever think for one minute that i support the Yes vote. Something is wrong with a society that allows basic changes to the foundations upon which it is constructed to suit a vocal and fixated minority.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Well I can't claim to have read all your comments but between the lines of what I've read there seems to be a latent distaste for Hamilton.
Acknowledgement of his talents doesn't necessarily negate a negative opinion of him. But it sounds like the issue is with his fans anyway. That, I can easily understand.
Aside from that, I'm not sure how you describe 61% as a minority.



As to your last sentence I am in total agreement. Let's see what legislative provisions are enacted to protect religious belief and free speach and how soon it will be before Left leaning governments seek to water down protective provisions.


Ra, that really is a load of cobblers!

Ricciardo Aficionado

Which bit?


I am sorry but I just don’t understand what you are trying to say here.

I only pointed out that if nothing happens in a race, Mercedes, Ferrari and RB will finish top 6 with the rest of the field finishing 20s behind on average.


Thank you kenneth. Finally a non biased comment. Of course Dan's performance far outweighed Hamilton's. Slower car and even instructed to move aside for Vers


David, did Daniel overtake any cars that were faster than his?


Not sure how many, but it was more than Lewis as they both passed the only one faster than him.


Bryce, just be clear I thought both Dan and Lewis drove extremely good races, but Dan only overtook slower cars than his. Either we are impressed by both drives, or neither......


I think Lewis is a great driver, having stated as such on many occasions and also said he had a good year, but cannot see anything special from Sunday's drive. Would not go near extremely good describing Daniel either.

Mind you, if I saw something remotely like it from Bottas I would most likely be heaping praise upon him and at the wondering where it came from or been.


I get your point Bryce, it may not have been the best race ever, but it was definitely the best one I watched on Sunday..


@ David...Thank you for that.


Max had a rather understated race by his recent high standards

Not unexpected hearing his comments just before the race. Red Bull has been struggling all weekend with the setup, and on top of that all Renault engines were downtuned for this race.


Driver of The Day is Lewis Hamilton
Superb come back.
Reckon if they kept him out for a few more laps on the first stint, he would've had abit more rubber to overtake Kimi. But his tyres wavered in the final laps.
Stroll dies he understand Blue flags?
Bottas is just keeping the seat warm for either Ricciardo or Ocon. His final season at Mercedes will next year. He did amazing yesterday and blew it on the first turn and on the restart.
Well done Massa.
Plonkers of the race Grosjean and as KMAG.
Well done to Ferrari but they had it easy after Lewis started from the pits. The speed Lewis had he would lapped half the cars midway if he started from the front.


Hardly a great comeback drive. Fastest car with modified PU.


Krischar, you could say something similar about all the dotd contenders. Why bother telling someone their opinion is wrong?


Agreed, but still made his teammate look second rate.


But his team mate did not had the V5 engine.


That’s a bit churlish - if it was just the car , how do you explain Bottas not getting past Seb?

Ricciardo Aficionado

Bottas doesn't have the racing instinct to overtake for the lead like Hamilton has. That's the difference between Bottass and 4xWDC Hamiltin.


Bottas doesn't have the racing instinct to overtake for the lead

It's fairly clear that Bot is not as quick as Ham (hardly puts him in an exclusive club) but I'm struggling with the concept that a race driver who has been deemed good enough to get into F1 (without the deep pockets of someone like Stroll senior) doesn't have the instinct to overtake. I would imagine he's been winning races and championships since he was 8 years old - when did he forget to overtake for the lead?

Ricciardo Aficionado

Ever seen him do it in F1? For that matter, ever seen anyone do it in the last four years apart from Hamilton? That's what sets him apart as a four x WDC.


ever seen anyone do it in the last four years apart from Hamilton?

Max at Malaysia...

Ricciardo Aficionado

Oh yeah the one where Hamilton almost exited the car jumping out the way so quickly... Self preservation, another 4xWDC trait.


Well why didn’t HAM pass RAI?

Mercedes have a top 6 car, arguably even top 4. So why is it so impressive that he finished 4th? Especially after the SC came out.


Whatever you say Andre....


Easy comment C63...


I have a suggestion for you Andre. Why not try and learn something about motor racing and read some of the articles written about the race. Articles written by people who have been reporting on literally hundreds of GP's and are paid for their insightful and knowledgable comments. These people - on all the articles I have read - were all impressed by Ham's fightback through the field. Maybe they know something you don't....


C63, I have been following F1 for more then 30 years. I think I know when I see something special.

Let me ask you? You didn’t think after the SC came in that HAM would be finishing top6 for sure? Is it a surprise to you that he passed a Sauber, Haas, McLaren, Force India and Williams on this track?

He is the fastest driver at this moment, he deserves all the credit, but please don’t make it look like he achieved the impossible. BOT is not nearly as good as HAM. He was struggling on the S’s.

HAM is the best driver for sure, and I am at awe of his driving skill and racing skill, how he corners, how he apllies the throttle, positioning etc. etc. BUT he also drives the best car. For 4 years already. Same as MSC in his day and VET. And just like them he did the right thing and capitalized on it. If ALO had moved to Mercedes in 2013 , he would have accomplished the same I am sure.


that HAM would be finishing top6 for sure?

I hoped he would but I didn't know it for sure, and nor did you! That's why they run the race - to find out who will finish where. Otherwise we could just decide the finishing order (based on form and preference) and save all the effort and expense.


So you didn’t think that a driver who finished in the top 4 in all but 3 races this year could not make up 11 places with undoubtably the best car of the field with 63 laps remaining?
Only in the odd crazy race like AZB, SIN for example, has any driver outside Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull finished higher then 6th place and usually 20 sec behind.

It spiced up the otherwise boring race, but it was far from amazing.


As I said, whatever you say Andre....


That's still not enough praise also need to forsake all others, wear ham tinted glasses, and whatever you do....DON'T MENTION THE CAR!!!


Bottas didn't have a brand new engine, Hamilton did.
Hamilton didn't overtake any faster cars, and nor did Bottas, both couldnt't overtake a Ferrari.


both couldnt't overtake a Ferrari.

You don't think there was any difference between Bottas following directly behind a Ferrari for the entire race and doing nothing and Hamilton only getting behind with a handful of laps remaining - having started from the pitlane and then spending 65 odd laps making his way through the entire field? No difference at all?


No I don't. Like said brand new engine, all bar one drs overtakes with a massive speed advantage.
Good drive by Hamilton but that's all.


No I don't

You are entitled to your opinion - I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Taking nothing away from Hamilton's drive, but Bottas had a fairly used PU. Who knows how much its de-rated, but judging by the top speeds, it was at least a contributing factor to Lewis's performance...


I'm not saying that Ham didn't benefit from a new PU (and gearbox for that matter) but if it was such an advantage then why didn't they change the PU on Bottas car as well? Surely if it was a benefit the teams would all opt for that - I'm guessing they reckon starting dead last outweighs any advantage that the new PU and gearbox might bring.


@C63 - agreed. I think the cost/benefit is dependent on a number of factors: circuit type, probability of safety car, qualifying position of competition, de-rating competitor PU's etc...

It could be that there are some instances where it's a better bet to take a new engine and start from the pit-lane than run the gauntlet of qualifying if you know you're not going to be at the pointy end anyway. With the added advantage is that you save on tyres....

Perhaps next year, with fewer PU's available we may see teams considering such alternative strategies.


You might be right about next year - with only 3 PU's there might be a benefit in taking a deliberate penalty at say Spa (where a lot of the lost places can be made up) and then carrying the advantage of a new PU through to later in the season. I've absolutely no doubt the teams will look at these sort of scenarios. But so far as I can tell, up to now the teams have only opted for a new PU when it made the best of a bad job e.g. Ham putting it in the hedge in Q1 Brazil.


Everyone, with the possible exception of the red car drivers, were sitting ducks for the fresh and wicked up merc.


Tyres Bryce, tyres! That was all that saved Kimi from getting passed by Ham - he'd used the best of his rubber by the time he caught Kimi and was struggling for traction out of the slower corners.


C, You make an excellent argument for Vettel being DotD!
I tend to agree.
It was indeed perfect execution on Ferrari's part, both from Seb and the pit crew. Seb knew he had to win the first corner and got it done, quickly getting out of DRS range against the faster merc.

Ferrari then held their nerve and when exposed to the undercut, pulled off a 2.1s stop versus Bottas' 2.7s (this was the difference between them winning or losing the place).
Seb then swiftly got himself back out of DRS range again.

As they say when Lewis does it....a flawlessly executed and controlled race and worthy of DotD!


You make an excellent argument for Vettel being DotD!

Do I? If you say so - personally I don't pay a great deal of attention to the DotD, in fact I don't even know how to vote. Ham has done much the same as Vet did on countless occasions and the vote has gone to someone else. I guess those who do know how to vote, and care about such things, don't find taking the lead at the first corner and managing the race very inspiring. Personally I do, and I recognise the skills and nerve involved in managing a race but, as I said, I don't know how to vote and don't care about DotD !
One other thing - aren't you contradicting yourself when you say "quickly getting out of DRS range against the faster merc". If the Merc was so much faster, how does he get out of DRS and remain there so easily? Remember, that Merc is a rocketship and anyone could have done what Ham did in the same car.....


C, no contradiction, that's entirely my point...Vettel outdrove Bottas who was in a faster car, in fact he handed him his pants!
Tell me which one of Lewis' place gains were driving excellence? I don't remember one that wasn't mid-straight DRS...
Just another asterisk, which is a shame, because he is a great driver.

I would wager that when he writes his memoirs he will lament the lack of any real competition during his glory years.


Lkfe, Perez and Hartley.


The DotD award will most often go to those who start lower down and advance a lot. It's always been that way. The lights-to-flag controlling of a race doesn't get the respect it deserves. You want to give it to Vettel for this race, and I would agree, Vettel had the race under control. Yet I believe there have been many times where Lewis has done the same, and you would nominate someone else for DotD. Vettel's performance on Sunday was nothing compared to say Hamilton's race in Spa this year (where he had a quicker car behind him, where the undercut threat was real, and where with quicker tires Vettel was able to launch a side-by-side attack), yet I bet we could go back and see you arguing for someone else to be DotD back then. Should we go look?

There have been so many DotD awards that in my opinion miss the mark, that I don't pay much attention to them anymore.

As for passes, one off the top of my head was his pass on Perez through the turn 1-2 complex. 'Twas a fine pass.

He's had real competition this year. As I said in a previous post, Hamilton never gained on Vettel in back-to-back races until BEL-ITA. That's over two-thirds of the way into the season! He didn't lead in the standings until round 13, so again, that indicates real competition.

He had real competition in 2014 when through repeated unreliability, he was over a race win back in the standings on multiple occasions. I don't believe there's another case out there, of a driver coming back from being over a race win back of his teammate, to then win the title.

Even in 2015, his most straightforward title, after the Monaco debacle Rosberg was able to close to within 10 pts after the Austrian GP.

There have been numerous stories about this season, that have said that Ferrari had a car capable of winning this year. Do you believe that they were just making that up? They are the ones closest to the sport, with the most insider information. I would trust them far more than a few posters on some F1 comment boards.


Well said KRB - I agree completely, plus 1 🙂


Firstly LKFE, please allow me to dispel an illusion that you appear to be labouring under. Whether you think Ham has an asterisk against any of his championships or wins is of no concern to me. I have told you and your 'colleagues' before that I am perfectly content with my own (and others who's judgement I value) analysis of Hamiltons abilities as a driver and whether you agree with those judgements is neither here nor there. History will record his achievements and he will be remembered as one of the all time greats. His name will be mentioned in the same breath as Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio etc and there is nothing you can do about it 🙂
As for passes which weren't mid-straight DRS assisted - there were several. You need to pay more attention.
Finally, I very much doubt that Hamilton will lament the lack of any real competition as there has been plenty - again you need to pay more attention.


Lkfe, so when Lewis has a race like that, you vote for him as dotd......?


Ermm, me, me, I know this one...

It's because the Ferrari is the only other car in the field that comes close to the works Merc, as long as it is providing dirty air such as Seb was to Vally.

Hence, Lewis can pass everyone at the same place with DRS and a massive power advantage, can fly in clean air, but could not pass either Ferrari.

Or do you not think that say, Dan and Fernando have to work a lot harder to make a pass or race against others...

If you're still not sure, take a look back over the past 4 years of works Mercedes rocketship dominance and see how many cars the winners, Nico, Lewis or Vally have Lapped by the finishline!

Or wait till Tuesday and take a look at the angle of the slopes for the Mercs and Ferraris on James's graph...



I'm not saying the Ferrari PU doesn't have some decent punch (although you have often made a counter claim when it suited your argument 😉 ) but it was the state of Hams tyres which saved Kimi's bacon. By the time Ham caught Kimi he'd used the best of his tyres and was struggling for traction out of the slower corners - remember Ham had passed the entire field to get to the back of Kimi's gearbox whilst Kimi was sitting in 3rd doing nothing much at all. You could clearly see (commentary also remarked upon it) that the Ferrari was pulling a gap in the initial acceleration from the corners which gave him enough breathing space on the straight.


Kimi just has superior throttle control to Ham maybe?
Maybe LH can ask KR, or DR on some pointers to drive fast without eating tyres?



Or maybe you just don't know what you're talking about but your dislike of Hamilton has manifested itself in an unfair assessment of his skills.


And maybe you're dreaming?


Not sure why you felt the need to get involved, Kenneth. But you're welcome to your opinion of course.

Maybe you think that Lewis's tyres were still in tip-top condition at the point he was up behind Kimi? Do share your insights with all the expert commentators and team managers, because they were under a different impression.


LOL. What I'll say is that while some value their credibility highly, and guard it jealously, others just casually fritter it away cheaply.


Maybe LH can ask KR, or DR on some pointers

Maybe he could. But how much do you think a 1 time WDC, 20 time winner and 17 time pole sitter and a no time WDC, 5 time winner a 1 time pole sitter would be able to teach a driver with 4 WDC's 62 wins , 72 poles , the most wins at different circuits, a win % of 30.09 and a driver who has taken 58% of the points available to them during their career? I'm thinking there isn't a great deal that they could teach Ham - what do you reckon?


Tyre management has never been one of LH's greatest strengths, even in China 07 he crashed going into the pits, more recently Australia this year when he wore his tyres out trying to gap VET, i am in no way saying Kimi is better than LH, but nobody can say LH is better than KR at everything, KR has always been pretty good at managing tyres, he has had a lot of practice this year too since he is always left out too long by Ferrari to block the Mercs.
DR is also very good at driving fast and saving tyres, also Perez, i dont remember LH being great at it.


i dont remember LH being great at it.

Maybe you've got a bad memory or maybe you just don't want to remember. Who knows, or cares? Not me.....


In Austria last year no one ran as long on the ultrasofts as Hamilton. In Monaco last year again Hamilton was putting in decent times on wets long after everyone else had pitted for inters. In Spain 2012, he did one less stop than Button, saving his tires, and so was able to beat him, even though Hamilton started P24 and Button P10.

Look and ye shall find.


Why wasnt he able to do it in Brazil then? If he was so good at tyre management, he would have saved enough to attack Kimi.


Trouble is, whilst we all reasonably know that he would not have caught up to Kimi without wearing out those tyres to get there. The odd person tries to pretend (or blindingly believes) that is was just bad luck that his tyres were not good enough to attack.


It's always a compromise Jimothy. If you save, then you're sacrificing some current laptime. If he saved tires, but then was 5 secs back, how would that have helped him? There will be a perfect crossover point, where a driver gets the quickest race time from a tire stint. But that's still finite, and there will be a maximum possible race time. It could be that there was simply no chance to be able to get onto the back of Kimi with tires in good enough shape to then attack.

You can be very good at something, without being totally perfect all the time at something, you realize?


So he should have backed Vettel up to repay VB then?
Surely they had some data to show that the tyres were never going to hold up to attack Kimi, why not go for a win?
If LH and VB were swapped, they would have instructed VB to hold up VET for sure.


re Monaco
IIRC didn't Hamilton go from wets to slicks (no inters) and didn't commentary say that was the first time that anyone had ever done that successfully in a race? Not bad for a driver who eats his tyres 🙂



I admire your ability to instantly recall such statistics but really mate I'm sure you can discern what posts have a smidgen of credibility and are therefore worthy of a response.


@ Adrian...The good Dr, Google is everyones friend.


Multiple screens are no doubt often used by some that feel the need to reinforce a point of view. Just like those that use multiple poster names, sad really.


Just like those that use multiple poster names, sad really.

Hang on a second Bryce - just because I (and many others) used some stat's to emphasise a point don't go start lumping me in with the saddo's that use multiple aliases. The two things are not the same.


Definitely not on the level of multiple name posters and I was having a shot directly at you. Not being one for stats, I just like to watch good racing and judge that which I see in front of me and sometimes come and have a chat on here (and only here) about it.


Not entirely true kenneth - recently the BBC ran an article comparing Ham and Senna. Although I had to look up some (not all) of Kimi's stuff I remembered the rest 🙂


@'re aaaaammmmmmazing...


You're not Craig Revel Horwood's Dad are you?


Yeah, the supersofts lasted not bad considering how hard Lewis was pushing them to catch and blitz Max. Kimi didn't do much at all, wonder what would have happened, say if Ferrari strategy pitted Kimi a good 5 laps before Bottas due to pit, just to get an undercut and then see how the tyres held on and if Bottas would struggle to overtake a fastish car from dirty air...

Thought Ferrari may have messed up stategy (again) by not getting either car in before Bottas tried the undercut. Lucky with the short lap and the quick stop for Seb.

Kimi looked to be saving boost just to defend from Lewis to turn 1, the Ferrari fast enough not to have to defend after the Senna S's.

Speed traps interestign though:
Perez 342
Lewis 336
Massa 330
Stroll 330
Bottas 329
Kimi 320
Seb Vet 319
Alonso 025
(actually 318 - must have been with DRS and Massa slipstream 😉


Clarks, your theory is interesting, but the obvious flaw is Lewis didn't pass everyone in the same place, and Danny Ric had plenty of straightforward drs passes as well, other than that, good job!


I think its fair to say both had an impressive afternoon behind the wheel. I think its also hard to disagree with anyone that suggests Ric made the more spectacular overtakes which is understandable considering the deficit in power between their four wheeled steeds.


Passes is passes Sarsippious,


Of course thats what youd say...


Sarsippious, so would anyone with no agenda.


What are these agendas you speak of? or is that anyone that dosent praise LH?
LH was so much faster than Max when he passed that he didnt have a chance to do his famous block, Red Bull was so much slower, DR worked much harder for sure