F1 Winter Break
Vettel beats Bottas to Brazilian F1 GP victory as Hamilton recovers to fourth
Posted By:   |  12 Nov 2017   |  6:34 pm GMT  |  798 comments

Sebastian Vettel took his fifth Formula 1 victory of 2017 at the Brazilian Grand Prix, finishing ahead of polesitter Valtteri Bottas having taken the lead on the opening corner.

Vettel produced a well-managed race to put second in the World Drivers’ Championship almost out of Bottas’ reach, the German now holding a 22-point advantage over his rival.

The race was boosted by a pair of thrilling recovery drives from Lewis Hamilton and Daniel Ricciardo, with Hamilton working his way from a pit lane start to fourth, battling with Kimi Raikkonen for third in the dying stages of the race. Hamilton had crashed in qualifying, but made up for it with a thrilling race on Sunday.

Ricciardo, who had to take another engine penalty, managed to come home behind his team mate in 6th place after starting 14th on the grid.

Race won at the start
Off the line, Vettel dived down the inside of Bottas at the first corner, emerging from the Senna S in control of the race. Although the Ferrari driver tried to build a gap, Bottas hit back with a number of quick laps to close the gap to within two seconds.

“The start, initially I had a very good launch and thought ‘I’ve got this’ then I was maybe a bit too greedy with the throttle, spinning up the wheel a little bit and losing a bit of the momentum on Valtteri,” said Vettel.

“But then I looked over and saw that he was still struggling and then I sort of gained a little bit again on the second phase, which was just enough to give me momentum to hang in there into the first corner. Yeah, I knew I had to go for it.”

Bottas and Mercedes then tried to wrestle back control of the race by pitting before Vettel at the end of lap 27 for soft tyres, attempting to snatch the undercut – and the lead. It was a long shot, as the undercut margin was very small here this weekend with these tyres. A car needed to be within 0.7s as it peeled off to the pitlane to make it work

Ferrari knew this and brought Vettel in on the following lap to cover the move and he returned to the track marginally ahead of Bottas. Although the Mercedes driver attempted to take advantage of Vettel’s cold soft tyres, the German held on and ultimately maintained a gap of over two seconds to put victory beyond Bottas’ reach.

An incident-packed first lap triggered the safety car almost immediately; for a collision between Stoffel Vandoorne and Kevin Magnussen’s Haas, which pitched Daniel Ricciardo into a spin. Vandoorne and Magnussen retired on the spot, but Ricciardo was able to keep going.

Moments later, a collision that spelled the end of Esteban Ocon’s 27-GP finishing streak (in fact his first retirement since 2014). The Force India driver was collected by an oversteering Romain Grosjean at Ferradura corner – Grosjean receiving a 10-second time penalty and points on his licence for his part in the incident.

Hamilton on the attack with fresh engine
Having started from the pitlane with a new spec power unit that he could run at an aggressive regime for more of the race than his rivals, Hamilton took advantage of the early incidents in front to line up in 14th as the safety car hit the track, before making short work of the field in front to ease into the top five within the first 20 laps.

Rising to the lead of the race after the cars in front of him pitted, Hamilton stayed out until lap 43 before switching to a set of super-soft tyres to drop back down to fifth, 11.5s behind Max Verstappen. Hamilton was clocked at 347km/h with DRS and tow along the straight into Turn 1, at times up to 25km/h faster than the cars he was passing.

Vettel returned to the lead, boasting a steady 2.6s advantage over Bottas. Hamilton, meanwhile, ignited his bid for a podium by rapidly catching Verstappen, breezing past the Red Bull on lap 60 before going after Raikkonen.

Attempting to launch an attack on the Finn at the start of lap 67, Hamilton snatched the brakes and locked up – Raikkonen proving characteristically unflappable in his defence of third place – and had to be content with fourth position. “I wasn’t worried,” remarked Raikkonen after the race.

Verstappen finished fifth, setting a blistering new lap record in the process – a 1m11.044s after stopping for fresh tyres. This beat Juan Pablo Montoya’s Interlagos lap record from 2004 by over 0.4s.

From 14th on the grid, Ricciardo managed to carve his way into sixth position, while Felipe Massa won out in a thrilling fight for seventh with Fernando Alonso and Sergio Perez in the latter stages of the race.

It was an emotional home race for Massa, who spent the majority of the race duelling with former Ferrari team-mate Alonso, joining countryman Rubens Barrichello on the podium after the race to address the Brazilian crowd.

Nico Hulkenberg beat Renault team-mate Carlos Sainz Jr. for the final point, ahead of Toro Rosso’s Pierre Gasly who recorded his best finish in F1 with 12th.

Marcus Ericsson beat Sauber team-mate Pascal Wehrlein to 13th, as Sauber pushed back the announcement of their drivers for next season to at least  Abu Dhabi.

After his collision with Ocon, Romain Grosjean kept running in 15th, ahead of Stroll who suffered from a delaminating tyre after a heavy late lock-up.

Result – Brazilian GP 2017, Interlagos, 71 Laps

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Good performances by Seb, Kimi and Lewis. Either of them could have been driver of the day, but Lewis got it deservedly. Bottas not converting a pole into a win was very much expected by me. Really don't care for the guy, and Lewis clearly showed today that the car had the pace.

Honorable mentions for Massa, Alonso and Gasly. Solid performances from them. Honda appears to have picked things up lately, and look to be ending the McLaren-Honda relationship on a somewhat higher note than expected.

What the hell was Stroll doing? Clearly showing he's still extremely inconsistent. Steering under braking ultimately cost him his race.


and yet no mention of Dan Ric from you. Did you actually watch the race?


Yeah he did OK I guess. I dunno what driver of the day even means. You don't get any points for that.


Just because you are a Danny Ric fan, doesn't mean I have to mention him when I don't feel the need to. He drove a fine race, however he was outqualified by his team mate for the 13th time this season, took arguably too much risk in the first lap which resulted in his spin and then just did what he had to do. Beyond some nice overtakes, just nothing that special to me.



"doesn't mean I have to mention him when I don't feel the need to"

Hmm... well you did in your very comment above, yes? Don't worry mate experienced F1 journalists such as James Allen and Mark Hughes have given Ricciardo due credit for what he achieved in the race which was in parallel to what Hamilton achieved albeit in a faster car.


doesn't mean I have to mention him

Well said jordanb - don't allow yourself to be intimidated. Further down the thread they even have the temerity to complain to JA about the content of his article - for not giving DR enough credit (in their opinion). Cheek!


C63, some people only have eyes for their god Breus.....


I had the same feeling. I knew Vettel was going to jump Bottas at the start!


Why bother getting pole when your on the wrong side of the track..... Seb played this one to a T.


Yeah all four of those drivers were close at the end. I dunno how Hamilton ended up that close at the end..

That JPM lap record got broke too. I knew that would happen If it didn't rain. Everything is fairly set now so except for the race win there is not anything else for Abu Dhabi.

Ricciardo Aficionado

That JPM record was set when he was leading Schumacher by 34 seconds. If he'd had a more reliable car that year, Ham would be chasing seven titles instead of eight for the outright record.


How the hell does Hamilton get the driver of the day? He's in a car that is way faster than all but Ferrari, gets help from a safety car and several crashes. He then fails to pass Kimi - and they were both on old tires.
There are more than a few drivers who could have done the same in his car. Vettel clearly driver of the day and I am far from a Vettel fan.


Dani, do you think there are other drivers who could have done what Seb did?


Yeah I dunno why but 190 miles doesn't seem like much.


What did Vettel do that was in any way remarkable? Passed Bottas who left the door wide open and that was it.


does Hamilton get the driver of the day?

I believe it's some kind of vote - Bernie's nod to social media and retained by Liberty.


Because he is liked by most people, to the despair and disheartenment of the Hamilton antis, who have got their work cut out 😨😨.


Well he went from last to fourth. Even with a fast car it's not easy at Brazil.


He was about 25km/h faster and passed them well before the end of the straight, so easy is the correct description.


Bryce, like Perez?


Whilst he had to battle a little harder with Perez, in the overall context an easy run through the field still applies. Pretty sure Lewis said words to that effect as well.


Bryce, not that difficult, but some of the passes were more straightforward than others.


brand new, upgraded PU with more horsepower than the rest of the field
Long uphill straight
some qualy mode
up to 25km per hour faster on the main straight
passes 9 cars in 10 laps
walk in the park
Lewis would you like a latte with that??

I don't care for the DotD award, but if it's based on driving merit, Vettel, Alonso or Massa should get it.


Lkfe, upto 25 jph with drs! but to be fair, it's not as though you would ever describe Lewis' drive in any other terms is it? It's also true that you have no idea if Lewis drove better or worse than Felipe, Seb or Fernando on Sunday, so a bit of a pointless comment really....


It's all context Tim. Vettel drove flawlessly and controlled the race against a faster car. Felipe duelled for his position all day, outperformed his current spot in the performance order of the grid and held off late charges in the pressurised atmosphere of his last home grand prix. Fernando drove an under powered car up the tail of a merc powered competitor on a power circuit, and ended up well above the cars pay scale. There's my rationale....probably less pointless than saying someone is the driver of the day because they drove a faster car than anyone else?
For the record also i have given Lewis plenty of props this year when IMO they have been warranted....but that doesn't fit into your "Nth degree" argument modus operandi.


Lkfe, have you given Lewis "plenty of props"? When was this, what races? I'm more than happy to go back and have a look, and if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Dotd is a personal choice, people vote based on what impressed them personally, there is no right or wrong answer, and no real point trying to correct people who you think voted for the wrong person. You weren't impressed with Lewis' drive because he had a faster car than the people he overtook, I have bad news for you, overtakes only ever happen because the guy behind has a faster car than the guy in front, that's how motorsport works. I see you are still clinging onto the 'Merc much faster than any other car' thing? What makes you think the Mercedes was faster than the Ferrari in Brazil? The 0.038 second pole advantage? Remember that Seb said he lost a lot of time in turn one, so probably should have been on pole.

Ricciardo Aficionado

So you think Seb would have beaten Ham if they were both on the front row?


That 0.38 advantage was with Bottas, Hamilton is always faster in Q3, so with the mighty LH driving, that would be more like .3 to .7
Also VET over took Kimi in the same car without team orders this season, did you see it?
Did you ever see the mighty LH over take his team mate without team orders this season? if so can you let me know, i must have missed it.


Jimothy. Maybe Lewis would have gone quicker in q3, but Seb says he could have gone quicker as well, so who knows? I believe Vet overtook Kimi in China? I think that was the only time, we have only seen Lewis pass Valterri with team orders this year, although we saw him overtake Nico lots of times without them in previous years.


Nico was different since the Mercs were always going to win both WDC and WCC, so LH had nothing to lose going for it.
This year, there was competition from Ferrari so he prefered to play it safe, LH is a great over taker when he has no pressure.


Jimothy, and none too shabby when under pressure either...


OK, let me know how you go!


Lkfe, you are supposed to be giving me a clue.....


It doesn't really matter. No points.


@ LKFE....did you forget that Ricciardo was there as well?


i think some did Ken...


@ LKFW...cool ,and we all know who they are.


Because he needs a so-called dominant car to be that impressive? When he gets his car that well hooked up, the only thing that saves the drivers ahead of him, was often running out of laps or tyres. Silverstone 2013 was one example


Actually with such a fast car it is easy in Brazil, plenty of overtaking spots.


Really just one normally.


Well it's not too hard either when you have such a superior engined car at was his!!


In fact he worked out ~9 places only, the rest of them were gifted by the crash and drivers that went for pit stop at that moment.
Dani is spot on. Vet or Ricci were DODs.


If we accept your calculation of 9 places only (I don't BTW) then how does Ricci only making up 8 places outscore Ham?


@ C63...at the end of lap one Ricciardo was in 17th place! To finish 6th is, in total some eleven places...No?


Enough children! I have watched the race again for you, Hamilton was running 14th under the safety car with Daniel 17th. The places gained for Lewis were Occon, Kmag and Vandoorne who were all out, and Wehrlein Grosjean and Ricciardo who had pitted. Dan was running 17th and last.
After the safety car came in on lap five, Lewis overtook Brendan Hartly around the outside of turn 6 for 13th and Stroll for 12th on the start finish straight. Dan passed Grosjean on the pit straight and Wehrlein on the second drs zone at the start of lap seven. Lewis zapped Ericsson with drs at the start of lap eight, and did the same to Ghasly for p10 at the start of lap nine while Dan got by Hartley at the same time. Lewis got by Sainz on lap ten and Hulkenberg on lap eleven, both with drs, while Dan got by Lance in drs zone one and Ericsson in drs zone two. Ric zapped Ghasly for p 11 along the pit straight on lap 13 and Lewis did likewise to Perez for p7, although Sergio made him work for it by running him around the outside of the Senna esses. Dan blew by Sainz on the pit straight as if Carlos was standing still on lap 15. Fernando let Lewis through on lap 20 and Dan got by the Hulk out of sight of the cameras. Lewis got by Felipe in drs zone 2 on lap 21. Dan got by Perez on the pit straight on lap 29. After the stops Dan passed Alonso unseen on lap 45 and Massa along the pit straight on lap 47 and Lewis mugged Max in the same place on lap 59. I make that ten passes for Lewis and eleven for Daniel, although Lewis made on outside of the drs zones, while Dan made all of his with drs.


Now, stay seated, upright and with your feet together.


Were all of their overtakes on track Tim - none due to pit stops ?


C63, ooh good point! Maybe the reason Dan's pass on Alonso was unseen by the cameras was he jumped him in the pits? Looking at the race history graph it is unclear if Dan came out just behind Fernando and zapped him straight away, or he came out just ahead.



Mate, C63 is up to nooo good! I've quoted you when you said: "a pass is a pass" even though DRS assisted or with a faster horse.


Adrian, he's always up to no good!


Having checked the race history graph and with the disclaimer of not being an expert at understanding it - I reckon that Dan pitted and came out in front of Alonso (just).
I therefore declare Hamilton the winner in the most impressive 'scythe through the field drive' as they both made 10 on track overtakes but Hamilton did one without the aid of DRS whereas all of Dans were done with the assistance of DRS 🙂



Yes, but to be fair Lewis had the faster car which enabled him to (1) clear one car without DRS and (2) get by Max. Yes? So your calculation needs to be adjusted, right? And as Tim said in one of his posts "a pass is a pass" I'll be fair and call it a draw.


and (2) get by Max

I know Dan likes a late lunge but even he would need to be a bit closer than 16 seconds to get past Max - wouldn't he?



Well brother if DR had a Merc PU in his RB he wouldn't need one of his 'trade mark' lunges to clear Max, would he? And if we are to believe the wisdom of Jimothy, that Lewis is hard on his tyres (and lost the art of overtaking too, apparently?) then DR would have got by him and Kimi as well. Seems totally reasonable to me even from 15,000 km away. Actually beautiful weather today. Sun shining 26 Celcius.


if DR had a Merc PU in his RB he wouldn't need one of his 'trade mark' lunges to clear Max

Ah, but wouldn't Max have a Merc PU as well though ?



It's all fantasy mate just like some of Jimothy's posts about your guy.

But seriously if Max was driving a Merc powered RB and starting from P4 he would have quickly cleared the Sunday Driving Bottas and Raikkonen and challenged 'my mate' Herr Bettel for the win. I have little doubt about that.


Sunday Driving Bottas and Raikkonen

Those two were rather disappointing during the race weren't they. I appreciate they aren't as quick as their respective teammates but even so....they just did nothing. Held station and that was their Sunday done. I thought they might have had a half a try at least.


Thanks Tim for the research. It was interesting to read don't get me wrong but I watched the race again today primarily to watch the artistry of Lewis and Dan on track. And BTW I agree I'd give them joint equal driver of the day. Just imagine if they were team mates.


Adrian, Danny Ric denied that Ferrari was his dream in an interview I saw earlier today, he also said he will wait and see how good next years Red Bull is before deciding on his future, so maybe he will end up at Mercedes after all!



Yeah, I tracked that media report down. Interesting. But the reality for Dan is that if he is looking at either Merc or Ferrari he's got to get podium results next year not just "acceptable" points results. Would just beating Bottas on a regular basis and Occon not performing to the level expected get DR the gig at Merc? Don't know.

I was interested in Toto's comment as reported on NewsOnF1 where he said: "The question is what happens next. Do we want to keep this team dynamic? Or is the nuclear variant better for us [where a strong team mate relationship can often push the team forwards]. No doubt Lewis' relationship with Rosberg soured and Toto is not going to put someone with Lewis who he perceives as trouble. As you said in an earlier thread all Lewis wants from a team mate is that things are kept clean and I think DR would give him that.

One of our fellow posters stated in an earlier JA thread that in his opinion DR was somewhere between Rosberg and Lewis in talent. Interesting comment!


Adrian, it's difficult to know, I still think they will go with Occon, but young drivers stock can fall rapidly as we have seen with Wehrlein and Giovinazzi.


at the end of lap one Ricciardo was in 17th place!

At the start of lap oneHamilton was in 20th place and last. He finished 4th - I make that 16 places...No?



Does all this analysing over numbers really matter? Are you prepared to acknowledge that BOTH Dan and Lewis had fine drives?


Are you prepared to acknowledge that BOTH Dan and Lewis had fine drives?

Of course they both had fine drives - no doubt about it and I never suggested otherwise.


@ C63...What you neglect to recognise is that Hamilton, according to james, made up six places after the corner two tangle! Therefore on completion of the first lap which marks the start of actual recorded race, Ricciardo was dead last , 17th, and Hamilton was fourteenth. Do the sums and see where that takes you....11 beats 10 in my calcs.as well as in a seriously compromised car, performance wise. Ricci gets the edge...IMO of course.


completion of the first lap which marks the start of actual recorded race

Honestly Kenneth, I have seen you make some strange claims on this forum but this has to be the best. The race starts when the red lights go out not at the end of the first lap.
Don't get me wrong - Ham made up a number of places easily (in part thanks to Dans over optimism at the start) but the fact of the matter is that Ham started from the pit lane, dead last in 20th place and made it up to 4th.
You can argue all you want about who had it easiest [making it through the field] but you cannot argue with those facts.


Yeah, have a look here:


I see Hamilton’s BRA17 effort on there, but not Ricciardo's.

Anyone critical of Max trying around the outside of turn 1 at Spain, would need to be equally critical of Ricciardo trying it around the outside of turn 2 in Brazil. Both were high risk moves on the first lap.



Why would anyone need to be "equally critical" of Ricciardo? I would have to see more vision of DR's move around the outside of turn 2 in Brazil to ascertain the level of risk (if it could be calculated) compared to what Max did in Spain but there's one differing factor and that is the outcome. DR survived Max didn't. From what I saw Dan drove into an open space whereas Max drove into a rapidly closing corner. But really no one is going to look back on Brazil 2017 with this level of analysis. But people might look back at season 2017 as a year that Max needed to develop his race craft to become a more complete driver.


Adrian, even Ricc accepted partial responsibility for placing himself in a risky situation in the post race interviews. He certainly wasn't to 'blame' (as it were) but he did put himself in harms way and if anything went wrong with the others he was always going to be in trouble.



Agreed, it was a risky move by DR. One of those moves that either come off or don't. I saw in a media report where he said that he didn't regret taking it because being down in P14 he had to try something. As it was it dropped him down to P17 from which he recovered to P6, the maximum he could have achieved, so perhaps it wasn't necessary to attempt it anyway. But that's all hindsight. Drivers obviously make decisions sometimes on the spur of the moment.


@ Adrian...the only reason the 'shadow' brought that up was try an get an edge. There is none. He knows that, but he'll try nonetheless. Good post.


Who's the shadow, me or C63? I like it!

"As you sow evil, so shall you reap evil! Crime does not pay...The Shadow knows!"


@ KRB....You are 'shadow 2' and we all know who the 'shadow 1' is.

'I know, because the Shadow knows all.' Remnants of my childhood radio entertainment...along with the
'Green Hornet' which was originally broadcast in 1936/39 IIRC .


I think (but I'm not 100%) that kenneth has taken to referring to Tim and yourself as the shadow - but don't quote me on that, I might be a shadow as well 🙂


@ C63...hahahah you nailed it..well done. Small Corona in the mail.


Thanks kenneth - finally, I get the cigar 🙂


@ C63...But only a half Corona. A long way to go to get the 'full fat' job. haha


What about 20-4=16 but only 9 on track?


Sold to the man in the corner at somewhere between sixteen and nine


In your mind only Alan. Check the official DOD result....have a little looksey at the 2017 WDC table too if you like.
As you were. 😀


Massa got the better customer engine modes for his farewell present from Mercedes. He'll be driving their FE cars perhaps?


I was hoping that you'll be glad to know that the race record was broken. This may satisfy you as a confirmation of what we've all known. That the current PU is faster, more durable and efficient than any previous era engine. The only reason that we don't see them breaking the records much more often is that there's no refuelling anymore that gave drivers the opportunity to opt for aggressive strategy.


That and the fact all that downforce probably slows you down in a place like Monza.


Give a V10 F2004 car these non grooved wider tires and the extra gear in the gear box and see the magic happen, even without 13 years of aero and suspension developments.


Sebee, these none grooved tyres still generate less grip than the tyre war rubber used in 'the golden age', and I have tried to explain to you before why an eight speed gearbox with set ratios wouldn't generate anymore performance than a seven speed with free choice of ratios.


I dunno I don't remember Pirelli tires then. That should be worth something in the wrong direction.


Yeah, Massa looks like he's very interested in FE!


The Vettel Bottas battle was over quicker than a streak of weasel pee !
Otherwise the racing hinged on Lewis -v- Max, [Max bites the dust for once]

The bigger battle was Kimi -v- Lewis, with Kimi victorious against the best of Merc power with all engine modes blazing. As Murray Walker used to say: this is the Maginot line and here you shall not pass!


His tires were gone by then. Really Mercedes should have locked the front row but they didn't and Vettel wasnt exactly faster than Bottas but he was at the start and it was enough. Both cars were pretty equal. The Ferrari had the advantage in sector two. Hamilton was faster in clean air but came from too far back.


I do not accept that the inherent capabilities and limits of the Ferrari is what Vettel is showing. The lack of competition in this Ferrari team must mean alot of pace is being left on the table. You can be sure Hamilton is operating at the uptimum of this Mercedes, with a couple of balls being dropped of course, as is inevitable for any driver in a season's campaign. Hamilton will always have his technical sparrings with Rosberg as a benchmark.


Could be but I would think 5 seconds would have been better than 2. Bottas should have laid back further and then tried a run.


The bigger battle was Kimi -v- Lewis....

To be fair Ham started dead last and finished 4th whilst Kimi started 3rd and finished 3rd. By the time Ham had clawed his way onto the back of Kimi’s gearbox he had used the best of his tyres and was struggling for traction out of slower corners - giving Kimi just enough breathing space to stay ahead .


Kimi did outqualify Hamilton, sure you could blame the crash but that wasnt kimis fault.


Kimi did outqualify Hamilton

I'm not sure what your point is/was. I haven't disputed the fact that Kimi out qualified Ham nor did I excuse Ham's mistake in Q1. The point I was making was; by the time Ham caught Kimi (having started dead last and Kimi in 3rd) he'd used the best of his tyres. Kimi, in comparison, had been mooching along in 3rd place without any pressure and consequently had tyres which were in better nick.


Chicken and egg. Had he taken it easy with his tyres, Lewis would not have been in a position to attempt a pass, despite having already extended his proposed first stint to allow for fewer laps on the SS


Exactly, thats why he should have helped VB and the team go for a possible win, he was never going to be on the podium.


No argument from me there Bryce - the thing I was trying to get across is; that making your way through the field from dead last (fast car or not) will inevitably take a greater toll on the tyres than someone who is maintaining position without any pressure.


Did Murray used to say that? He does know the history with the Maginot Line, right?


The Maginot Line - something that was once thought of as rock solid but is now thought of as pretty much irrelevant and useless. Seems pretty apt for Kimi.



Seems Kimis fans have deserted him - or maybe they agree 🙂


I don't recall Murray saying that, but given his habit of getting it wrong he might well have 🙂


I think Murray was “very much mistaken!”


Simply go around it, just like Lewis did on Max. Geez that merc was quick today.


Max was the only one , besides Kimi, that resisted Lewis for only one corner. After that the extreme power of the engine and the DRS made an easy pass possible.


No argument from me, as like I stated elsewhere, only the red cars had any chance of keeping that merc behind.


I suspect you are about to prove that Murray W didn't know the first thing about the Maginot line.....


Krb, he should, he was there!




Steering under braking is a basic racing technique. It's called trail braking.


I understand that. Just pointing out what caused his tire failure, as he himself seemed to be somewhat confused about what was "sticking out of his tire".


Lord stroll won’t be nowhere close to f1 if not for daddy money...cut him some slack for fighting amongst some professionals 😉


Stroll....He doesn't know what a blue flag is for a start.


no, the national flag is for a start


Twas an OK race rather than a classic, spiced up by Ricciardo and Hamilton. Shame we missed most of the Perez alonso Massa battle. Not sure who gets DOTD though...possibly Ham who had much more to do today than in many of his victories, or Ricciardo for the many of his late lunges on the brakes. Vettel did what he is good at and controlled from the front. Raikkonen is always the not even nearly man these days and is driving for the paycheck I feel.
Bottas was massively underwhelming and given he finished about 5 secs ahead of his teammate who started in the pits should have a large degree of soul searching to do. There was pace aplenty in the Merc today, even accounting for the older engine. Verstappen - no excitement today. And to Massa - obrigado and goodnight!


Not wishing to be a downer but didn't Massa rabbit on a bit too much? What's with all these Brazilians? Even Barrrichello got in on the act...that guy just doesn't know when to butt out. He was probably chasing Williams for a drive if the truth be known. hahahah


Downer, there you go.


Favorite funny moment of the race?

When the graphic came up showing the whole field did 3 stops...on lap 4.
Little low tech on that timing script code, no Liberty? Counting pit lane entry as stops.

As bad as that "race lap record" graphic. It's called a fastest lap record you Saturday hype sellers! It's what matters and what goes in the books.


Twas the type of race where upon ending I said to myself, and I quote: "glad I got my treadmill distance in."


@Sebee We need to know you’re contingency plans for delayed starts:
Do you sit out if the race start is delayed due to rain or other reasons?
If the race starts behind the safety car, do you just jog for the first few laps until Berndt pulls into the pits and then increase the speed?
What about the different races speeds, do you run slower for longer at Monaco, but faster for less time for Monza?
What about for Safety Cars, do you jog for those laps?
How do you keep the ‘delta in positive’ for the VSC.
We need to know these things! 🏃


Axel, it can be brutal!

There was a rain delayed race year or two ago that really made me sick - giant headache from dehydration. Had to sleep that off. I didn't bring enough with me for that possibility. I really don't want to remember that race.

Once I start, there is no stop until the checker is thrown. If it's a stopped race or stretches out due to SC/rain/etc. I stay rolling. Start at lights out, stop at flag.

Only interruption is those stupid automatic 60 minute cool downs set in the treadmill I guess for health/safety reasons, which I circumvent via a stop/restart every 60 minutes. That's a 20s reset process.

Monza, I usually run faster because it's always a shorter race.

About 20 laps to the end I increase the gradient/slope. It's not really specific, I pick a number based on laps remaining. Something round and representative of 1/4-1/3 total distance.

There are no provisions for VSC or other delays. I keep it simple, keep going.

I can come on here and complain about the entertainment value while treadmilling, but reality is that I am always satisfied when a Grand Prix ends, and I always get something out of it. 🙂


And, more to the point, does he stop and refuel or just run from start to finish stopping once to change his footwear? (this could go on and on)


Good question. I wear these, they last the whole race! 🙂

Yes, I bring fuel with me, but as noted above, in V10 mode, sometimes it's not enough. Quite often i even bring a coffee!


What was your prediction for non-Merc wins this year? Certainly wasn't eight, I know that.


Krb, it was three, then four, then five, then the subject was quietly dropped.....


What was your prediction for non-Merc wins this year

Lol - by the end of the season both Sebee and Dean Cassidy will be patting each other on the back and telling us they got it just about right in this MMC. You see if I'm wrong 🙂


This is exactly what Mercedes wanted if they wanted to telegraph "competition" after 3 years of domination.

Wonder if they will play it this way in 2018 or if we're back to domination?

Clearly this car is capable of domination if they chose to. Couple of obvious throw aways early in the season and then Malaysia - which is really still unexplained outside of the fact that apparently mighty Mercedes either sent out their pole sitter with an undercharged car, or that Lewis doesn't know how to charge up the ERS on the formation lap, or that after being fully charged Lewis used up all ERS in the first few laps to try to get a gap to Max, but magically Max was able to keep up with the might of Mercedes full out engine mode and still had power to spare to pass him. Or better yet, they turned down the engine and let Max have one where it wouldn't cost Mercedes a thing for the good of the show.

Anyhow, Mercedes played ball this season. Don't wrap yourself in that blanket KRB feeling all warm and fuzzy. They have the performance to dominate this field if and when they want to, as illustrated in Monza without any doubt.


Oh geez. I don't know why you watch then, if you truly believe that.

Monza is a one-off ... it's raw power, and on that the Mercedes is better than the Ferrari. At other races though, the Merc looked like a boat, when it was trying to turn in. It looked ridiculous on some of the onboards.



I watch for the sound! You know that.


Not that the red cars are slow, but that boat looked pretty comfortable cruising around the outside of the supposedly sticky Bull when passing Max on Sunday.


Lewis did say he let Max past in Malaysia, Maybe Lewis had his mind elsewhere that day, and didnt feel like fighting?
Relationship trouble has hampered him before.


Silly. Red Bull was clearly quicker in Malaysia (Ricciardo finished 34 secs ahead of Bottas), so there was no sense in Lewis trying to hold Max back for the entire race. He wouldn't have been able to, and it just would have cost him in total race time.


So what, Hamilton has beaten Bottas by that much in the same car, Bottas was slow that day, its not the first time he was off the pace either.


Maybe Lewis had his mind elsewhere that day

What a ridiculous thing to claim. Ham had his mind exactly where it needed to be, and that was on the WDC. He was well aware that all he needed to do was finish in front of Vet [to extend his championship advantage] and that's what he did. No point in throwing it all away like Vet did at Singapore.


It just shows that Vettel dosent get intimidated like Ham, people think VET shoud have just let MV past, i dont agree, dont show fear.
Lewis fears Max and now Max now knows it.
Max says BOO, Lewis just moves aside, not really the racer his fans claim.


As his car has generally lacked outright pace to get near the front row, I don't think Lewis has as yet had any great reason to fear Max as they have never truly raced. Lewis doesn't mind a bit of push and shove, but expect a lot of complaints from his fans if and when they are actually racing and Max tries his thus far preferred barging approach.

Quite looking forward to seeing the to and fro between their respective supporters once the seemingly inevitable fireworks have commenced.


Max tries his thus far preferred barging approach.

The only reason that he could take that approach is because he wasn't in a fight for the WDC and Ham/Vet were. Horner, Max and Dan have all said they wouldn't be taking any prisoners and they would treat each race as a cup final. That attitude will have to change if they have aspirations to win either of the championships so it will depend a great deal on how competitive they are next year.


people think VET shoud have just let MV past

I don't think Vet should have just let MV go but I do think he would have been wise to show a little more caution. After all the tactics employed by Vet at Singapore clearly weren't very successful were they? Part of the art of being a successful GP driver is knowing when to fight and when to let it go - what do you think Vet would do if he could have the start at Singapore again? The same thing or would he do it differently?
Oh, and your attempts to try and wind me up are far too obvious . Max says BOO . Must try harder 🙂


But the thing is, Vettel cleared MV, thats why he needed to tap Kimi, Sure Seb would do it differently now that he knows MV would rather crash than lose a place, LH would have learned something from that too, as you saw in Malaysia.
Could you imagine a grid with 20 MV's? if they all drove like him at the start, you would be lucky to get 10 finishers per race.
Dont get me wrong, MV is great but he really needs to calm down.


now that he knows MV would rather crash than lose a place,

He knew that before the race - Max had said as much. Maybe he didn't believe him and wanted to call his bluff - who knows. But Max cannot play that game if he is in a competitive car as you don't wage successful championship campaigns by crashing on a regular basis - the cars are so reliable nowadays that one or two DNF's will finish your chances.


Exactly, Max and Horner both said it was going to happen if Seb dosent yield.
Seb was in P1, he didnt have to yield, he wasnt going to get bullied, so Max just dives in saying move or we both crash, how can that be Sebs fault?


he didnt have to yield, he wasnt going to get bullied,

You are absolutely correct - he didn't have to yield. But as he was fighting for a WDC, and effectively threw away his challenge at that moment, would he have been wise too? I (and many others) would say yes. He was up against another driver with nothing to lose and he had everything to lose - yet he chose to put it all on the line. For what? Has he achieved anything, drawn a line in the sand? Max didn't back off in Mexico did he - so Vettel taking a stand and showing he won't be bullied by Max didn't work did it. So, as tactics go, it has been proven to be quite a poor one by Vettel - would you disagree?


A good description. On a positive note for the remaining MV's, they would all be in the points.


With the benefit of hindsight, it's clear after another rather disappointing race for Bottas just how good Nico Rosberg was, and you can bet Merc F1 are missing his driving. If Lewis Hamilton had an off day or a reliability issue, the younger Rosberg was always there to capitalise - and win. Bottas, alas...........

Just as in Mexico, a golden opportunity for Bottas was squandered. Giving him a contract for 2018 does look misplaced. If the Silver Arrows had a big pair of knackers, then they would put Ocon alongside Hammy for 2018...............but then Bottas TP is also his manager. Conflict of interest...........he really is not top dog level, and should be given the Mr Burns treatment after a really poor 2nd half of 2017 (harsh, but - it's a waste of a brilliant Mercedes in my view).

Great comeback drive from Hammy - and a worthy contender for DOTD............but my man of the moment is Fernando Alonso, who yet again put his gonads on the line - and his McHonda on the limit - all for 8th place, which is way ahead of his car's potential. He's always tries his absolute hardest - even if it's just for a few crumbs. That new Renault powered McLaren can't come quickly enough.........

I'm sure when Alonso goes to sleep this evening, he will be thinking in bed: "Just one more weekend with that awful Honda powerplant, just one more weekend............"


I think it is commonly accepted that previous years cars (in the hybrid era) were easier to drive than the current spec, meaning that it was more difficult to spot the 'great' drivers from the merely 'good' ones. Therefore we cannot assume that Rosberg would have outperformed Bottas this year.


Rosberg would be at very short odds to easily outperform Bottas, no matter the vehicle type.


Gazboy, maybe Nico would have struggled with these cars more than Bottas, who knows....or cares?!

Ricciardo Aficionado

I doubt that. He'd be super quick in this "diva".


Ricciardo, you have no idea if that's true or not.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Rosberg pushed Hamiltin the whole time. Ham only looks so good now because; A. Ros pushed him to another level and B. Bottas is nowhere bear that level.
Trust me, Rosberg would not be coming home second to Ferraris and Redbulls this year...


Ricciardo, re watch last years races from Monaco, Canada, Germany and Britain, and tell me again that Nico wouldn't be finishing second to Ferraris and Red Bulls...

Ricciardo Aficionado

Tim, you've just prescribed me eight hours of concentrated viewing. That's a days work!
I don't know about you but my time is spent making a living.
For my trade I charge a flat rate $65/hr. I'll do your days work for mates rates, $50/hr. I'll write the report you request for flat rate $520.


What of 2018?

We have this battle on our hands with Liberty. Mercedes and Ferrari are all chummy apparently, as you're always chummy when ypu have the competition's number on track. Sure, the appearance of a battle between those two is a good thing and helped in 2017 after those 3 seasons, but somehow I feel that Mercedes have now done it, and will go back to total domination, maybe inner team battle for 2018. Just in case they don't get what they want from Liberty, dominating season helps to make a point to Liberty about playing ball, and is a nice insurance performance in case they opt to pull out/sell the team. Mercedes played ball this year, even letting the new boy Max pass Lewis for P1 on track...on merit!

Could be a turbulent year for Lewis too that 2018, with his contract renewal talks, talk that 2018 car will suit Bottas more, those 3 PUs per season rules ensuring reliability plays a much bigger role. Would Mercedes want to go into negotiations with Lewis in such position of power in said negotiations? Having Lewis in second spot in WDC standings behind his team mate may help Mercedes negotiate a better deal.


but then Bottas TP is also his manager

That's not correct Gaz - Toto used to be a shareholder in the company which managed Bottas but he sold his shares before/when Mercedes hired Bottas. I'm not defending Bottas BTW, I thought he was strangely lacklustre in the race - but then the same could be said of Ham during quali....


Not so much to show how good Rosberg was but to highlight how weak Bottas is.
Hamilton lost a WC to Rosberg of all people and now has an even weaker teamate.


Hamilton lost a WDC to reliability, not to his team mate.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Kinda splitting hairs there mate.


Not in the context of Lewis vs team mate.

Ricciardo Aficionado

If Lewis had Bottas as team mate last year who do you think would have been champion?
You underestimate Rosberg's endeavour.


@RA: What's that got to do with it? I said that Lewis lost the WDC because of reliability, not because his team mate was better. If you exclude all the races where either LH or NR has reliability issues and count all the rest, LH wins by 30 or more points.

I made this point in response claiming that Lewis had lost to his team-mate - a claim which implies that NR had driven better then LH in 2016. Which is simply not the case.

So that's not splitting hairs.

Then you come back with a comparison between VB and NR, which again is a non sequitur. To answer your question, I suspect that even with the reliability issues of 2016, LH would still have won the championship.

I'm not claiming that VB is as good as NR. You seem to be arguing against a point that I haven't made and am happy to concede.

So, to clarify:
1. I think that NR was a very good driver, but he didn't "beat" LH in 2016.
2. I think that NR was better than VB is. There's always car characteristics to account for, but even so there appears to be a decent air gap between them.


Ricciardo Aficionado

It certainly is not a non-sequitur.
I think the answers you seek are in your own comment. You seem to be aptly describing your own argument. We often see ourselves in others.
Mine was not a "comeback" it was an elaboration.
If reliability had lost the championship for Lewis last year it wouldn't have mattered who his teammate was. But you yourself said Bottas probably wouldn't have won it. Ergo, we must say Rosberg beat him. Or just say Rosberg is champion. Which is easier than saying Alonso didn't beat him because he was in an underpowered lump. Or Max and Dan lost the championship to another suspect PU. Or Perez lost the championship to a serious budget inadequacy and tethered customer PU supply.

We discussed conspiracy theories in the past didn't we Jim?


Well, there's different levels of reliability. Lewis suffered horrible reliability - far worse than any other Merc-engined driver - yet finished only a few points behind a very good team mate. Against a worse team mate he would likely have won the WDC with the same reliability issues.

To say he would have lost against any other team mate is just nonsense - unless you believe that the unreliability was engineered to enable his team mate to win no matter what. Personally I don't think that's the case, but if you want to indulge in a conspiracy theory, knock yourself out - but that makes it a non-sequitur because you're basing your logical conclusion on a premise that was never established.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Yeah listen mate. It's not a non sequitur because it wasn't a statement. It was a question. And I think you think I think Bpttas would have beat Ham last year. I don't. The point is Rosberg was very good and had to be close enough to win the championship.
The list of other guys was not in relation to Ham it was in relation to Ros, in that they aren't complaining about machinery costing them the championship. Even though it did way more so than for Ham.


You mean like Vettel this year? If you blame reliability last year then you would have to blame it for Vettel losing out to Ham this year.


Jimothy, if your theory is correct, namely that Seb would have been champion this year if not for reliability (and it isn't), then Lewis still deserves the title because the team he drives for built a more reliable car than his rival. The obvious difference between this year and last year, is that the two title protagonists drove for the same team last year, and therefore should be expected to have similar reliability, but they didn't.


Last year Nico beat Lewis as a number 2 driver, even with the team favouring Lewis, Nico still rose

Ricciardo Aficionado

Yeah but we all know Vet made mistakes which cost him too.
Just like Ham last year.


Ra, every driver makes errors and has bad races, Nico certainly had plenty last year.


Yes, and I think that's a fair point. It would be a much more interesting end to the season had Ferrari not suffered reliability, and if Vettel had not caused a crash in Singapore.

If someone wants to go through the same exercise I did for 2016 - discounting all race results where either Nico or Lewis suffered reliability, and totting up the points scored in the other races, I'd be interested to see where Seb and Lewis stand right now.

Interesting that you chose to turn a comment about Lewis v teammate into one about Lewis v Sebastien - betrays an agenda, I suspect.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Reliability and driver error you'd have to agree


No you wouldn't. Hamilton could have had mechanical DNF's in Brazil and Abu Dhabi, and still have won. That would more than equal Seb's mechanical unreliability, which was a DNF in Japan and having to start at the back in Malaysia.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I'm confused , I was talking about Vet...


But if he had broken down in any other 2 races, VET would still be in with a shot, Ham had no pressure after Singapore.
You cant say Singapore was Sebs fault either, he would have got a penalty if that was true.


Not true - the stewards take into account the fact that it's the start of the race and are less inclined to penalise. It was a racing incident, to be sure. But all racing incidents are ultimately caused by a mistake by someone. The only person who made a significant direction change was SV. It might not be his "fault" but he caused the collision by a conscious action on track.


The only person to make 2 direction changes was MV, first right to cover Seb, then as soon as he sees Kimi, starts to go left to cover him, once he realizes he is going to be P3 before the first corner, he taps Kimi's wheel, MV dont like to be passed, just ask RIC


Ok mate, whatever you say. Shame that only SV fans agree with you.

Astounding news: F1 drivers don't like to be passed. You heard it here first, folks.


Some drivers accept being overtaken and some have a temper and would rather crash than let someone pass


Jimothy, you mean like Vettel?



As TimW said, penalties for incidents like that at the start of races are rare, and even more rare this season.

Max summed it up correctly:

"When you’re fighting for the championship and then try to be that aggressive at the start when Lewis is behind you, quite comfortably, it’s not I think the smartest move to do."

I said Lewis could have 2 DNF's ... two no-scores, and still win. That's not what Vettel had though. He had 1 DNF, and 1 mech failure in qualifying, which meant he started last, from which he rose to 4th. If we're cautious, and just give Hamilton a 6th from a forced start from the back, then even if there were 2 races now, Vettel would not be able to make it up.

43 (current pts gap)
+8 (from a DNF and 6th place)
-50 (max haul for Seb in 2 races)
+1 = Hamilton still wins

As the article states, the big points swing from Singapore was the major turning point in the season.


Jimothy, if Seb had stayed on the racing line in Singapore, would the accident have happened? Penalties are rarely given at the start of races.


If MV backed off once he realized he was only ever going to be P3, would it have happened? MV saw Kimi coming, he knew he got a better start, he just thought SV has a WDC at stake, he will move.
It didnt happen that way as SV was entitled to take that line, he was in P1, he actually cleared MV


Jimothy, you really need to watch it again. Max's start was good enough to at least have him side by side with Seb into t1, Seb made a very bad start and so swerved left to force Max to have to turn into the corner on a tighter line, Seb assumed Max could move left in avoidance, but didn't realise that Kimi had got a better start than the pair of them and was preventing Max from going any further left. Verstappen did back off, but Seb didn't stop swerving. My original question remains unanswered, any chance?


I think you need to watch it again, Seb cleared Max, yes he had a bad start but once he hooked up he was much faster, Max was never even close to being P1, If Max stayed straight, he could have let VET hit him, unless youre saying that MV didnt see Kimi and took avoiding action into another car.
You can clearly see MV go left as soon as he saw Kimi coming, SV was nowhere near him.


Why should Max back off? He was in the fight!

Basically he got squeezed between two Ferraris that couldn't see each other. He had no obligation to back out. None at all. Seb had a right to protect his line, but in doing so he caused a collision. End of.


The only reason a collision happened is because MV is still inexperienced, VET cleared Max as you can clearly see from LH onboard, VET was over half a metre away when MV hit Kimi


Yes. Apparently Max should have jammed on the brakes while he was still 200 yards away from the first corner.

What a joke.

The reason a collision happened is because Vettel and Kimi could not see each other. Kimi was trying to overtake Max, Vettel was trying to defend the first corner. They squeezed Max and gave him nowhere to go. Then all the Ferrari fanboys tried to blame Max.


If putting the brakes on 200 yards from a corner stops you hitting Kimi then yes, its called avoiding a collision.
Max could see both of them, you dont think he should have been smart enough to predict what was going to happen?
He was so sure that the Ferraris would just get scared and move aside, he even said after the race that he was happy he took them out with him.


So it's up to Max to avoid the collision, but fine for Seb to come sweeping across and cause it in the first place?

You're on a different planet, my friend.


Seb didnt do anything against the rules, he didnt hit anyone.
If you blame Seb for that you would obviously have to blame Ham for Baku, Seb cant be responsible for both unless you are biased


"If you blame Seb for that you would obviously have to blame Ham for Baku"

Any shred of credibility your argument may have had, has just evaporated with that statement.

I never said Seb broke the rules. You're arguing a straw man now.

I think we're done here.


That summary is exactly correct.


Jimothy, Max did back off, but he had nowhere to go, Seb had a lot more to lose than either of the other two drivers involved, and so should have been more circumspect.


Any links showing where MV backed off? maybe i missed it? you could be right, but even so he didnt back off enough.


Seb had a lot more to lose than either of the other two drivers involved, and so should have been more circumspect.

What does that say about MV then? If MV qualifies P2 and LH is P1 should Lewis just move aside because Max says he will hit him?


Jimothy. Seb's swerve was risky, and ultimately led to the accident. If he had stayed on the racing line he might have still been leading, he might have been second, but he would definitely have still been in the race.


VET is a racer, he dosent just let his competitors through from fear of crashing, i also remember the days when LH was like that too, but he seems a bit timid these days, too scared of having a go at VB, but i guess he dosent need to, VB will just move aside


Hmm, we must have a different interpretation of the meaning of the word "cleared". Seb wasn't totally in front of Max ... and Seb swerving over didn't help matters much in that regard (that whole Pythagorean thing y'know).


Watch the race start from Hamiltons car and you can see that SV clears max.
Max should have backed off earlier when he saw Kimi coming up much faster, it should have been obvious to him that he was only ever going to be P3 unless the Ferraris got scared and let him through, but why would 2 drivers with 5 WDC's between them move for a slower Red bull?


Why from Hamilton's car?! That's beyond silly. We have the onboard from Max's cause, from which we can see that Vettel NEVER cleared Max.

What does WDC's have to do with it? They're racers. If Max thought like that, then he'll never get a WDC for himself.


So you think VET hit MV??? From Hams car you can clearly see VET gets infront, MV hit Kimi, who was driving straight.
If that was Ham, you would be blaming MV, not sure why you dislike Vettel so much.


then you would have to blame it for Vettel losing out to Ham this year.

No you wouldn't. How many points did Vet lose to reliability this season and how many did Ham (remember Bacu was an easy win for Ham). Give everything back to both drivers and Vet still loses.


I can't see it changing the result and note that the VER supporters have been very quiet about reliability issues of late.


@ Bryce...Yes, it has been noted. The usual 'prayer meetings' have been put on temporary ,hold ATM.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Don't worry reliability was not an issue this year... For Ham.


Ra, apparently it's never an issue for any driver....


Now don't give Bottas a hard time. He is faster than KR. He usually gets good starts but not this time.


Fair point but Kimi is 38!!!!


Whilst I see his run of nightmares continuing next season as he watches the Honda get the junior bulls on terms with his car and the senior team still ahead. Still, I hope not.


All won at the start really, I thought Bottas gave it up a little bit too easily, but maybe I'm being a bit harsh. That should put 2nd in the title battle to bed, I think it would be a bit harsh on Vettel to lose it. Hamilton's comeback was about par I'd say, I think Mercedes had an advantage here but it was narrow.

Lots of good subplots in the midfield - Perez has a decent gap to Ocon now (I thought Grosjean's penalty was harsh given it was opening lap jostling for position), Alonso is back ahead of Vandoorne, Massa back ahead of Stroll, Hulk got the better of Sainz. Still a chance that Renault pip Toro Rosso, which will probably not make the Red Bull squad happy...


I remember all the flack Vettel got for being too aggressive at the start in Singapore, which i dont agree with but at least it showed Vettel dosent get intimidated easily.
Maybe VB just took the safe option like LH in Malaysia, when he let Max intimidate him?


like LH in Malaysia, when he let Max intimidate him?

Maybe a thinner line or perhaps a smaller hook next time you go fishing 🙂


He knew MV was in win or bust mode, so yes he took the safe option.


Yeps... and won his 4th WDC because of it... pretty cool really👍🏻


so yes he took the safe option.

You are correct in that he took the safe (I would say sensible) option. But that's not the same as being intimidated by him.


C63, another armchair psychologist, this place is full of em!


Lol - I can't recall hearing any criticism of Ham at Malaysia from anyone part from the anti's. Not the commentary teams, the pundits like JYS etc - only the anti's are trying to make something of it. Agenda?


TimW, as an armchair psycologist, i am still allowed an opinion.
Not all of us are professional F1 experts like you unfortunately.


You are always entitled to your opinion, and everyone else is free to decide whether it seems fair and reasonable, or not.


Jimothy, of course you are allowed your opinion, and so am I.


You never know but the math now looks bad for Bottas. Even 15 points means you have to win both races with Vettel finishing one race lower than second. That really didn't look good before Brazil.


Ridiculously harsh on GRO for mine, at any time, let alone in a supposed let them race era.


I didn’t get to see the start of the race but when I read this article my immediate thought was “first lap nut-job”.
I really became a fan of GRO after he came back from being suspended a few years ago, but this season, he seems to have slipped back to his old ways. I feel that his time in F1 may run out very soon.


Axel, I think Haas needs two new drivers really. Kmag has turned into a crash magnet, and seems to be deeply unpopular with the other drivers due to his over aggressive driving, and Romain seems incapable of keeping his cool when things go wrong. Maybe they could take one of the Ferrari youngers, and get Rossi back?

Ricciardo Aficionado

I became a fan of Grosjean since watching the drivers briefings. He's very vocal.


GRO dosent like HAM very much, there was an article recently where GRO got Mercs full power mode at SPA 2015, and he was .8 sec per lap faster because of it.
I think after that race he realized that the Merc drivers are nothing special, the customer teams were getting an engine .8 secs slower

Ricciardo Aficionado

Thanks for the info. Very interesting. I had noticed he seems to have it in for Lewis in those briefings...



Probably explains why Hams engine failure happened in 2016, too much boost?
Funny too that LH said with all the other Merc engines, only his blows up, if they all had that engine mode they would be too.


Jimothy. Lewis' brand new engine failed in its first race while turned down to cruise mode as Lewis was leading comfortably. Nice theory though...


I am no expert on F1 engines but when i was a teenager i drove an old Chrysler with the Aussie Hemi 265 engine, i took that car out one night dirt tracking, revving it to 6000rpm doing fishtails, donuts, going crazy for at least an hour, one block from my house in cruise mode, car covered in mud i heard a pop, the engine blew up, a big hole in the side of the block, and holes in the sump.
The damage was already done, i was lucky it held together long enough to get me close to home.
Do you think it could be something similar?

Ricciardo Aficionado

Thanks for the link.
I've not heard this specific story before. Is it widely reported? Is it credible? You'd think an ex team boss is a fairly solid source. What does Grosjean say about it?
And why've I not read anything here about it??
British press don't want to open that can of worms I bet. No wonder the midfield is a second class competition, they get knobbled by their engine supplier before they even start. It's a joke.
Teams should start a civil action against Mercedes. The fans should start one too. I'm pretty sure rigging sporting events is not only immoral but probably illegal. No doubt Ferrari do it too but I think that's kind of expected. Half the time their customers get last years model! Even then probably not run at maximum spec. Renault supply is pretty patchy.
One thing for sure, engine settings are a great way to settle team disputes. Think Ocon and Perez.
How about Bottas coming home in Baku? I wonder if they gave him that setting in the second half of the year? I didn't see it...


In 2015 GRO's best finish was 7th, in Spa he got a podium, GRO said the car was better than ever and the lap times show it.
It also shows that even if you gave Merc customer teams a billion dollars each, as long as they have a Merc engine they will never have a hope of beating the works team.
.8 sec for 8 laps, wow, i always thought LH was great at getting out of DRS zone at the start of a race but with that much extra boost it dosent seem all that special.
As for the credibility of the article, i dont know, but i dont see why a former Lotus boss would care about making up stories from Spa 2015 now but i really wish an interviewer such as JA would ask GRO himself.
I would love to know how much the 2017 spec engine has in reserve and how often Merc can use it in a race, but LH charging through the field in Brazil dosent look so special any more either.


Sounds a bit suspect to me, they told him to switch to strat seven, why not just do it again?

Ricciardo Aficionado

Merc "tech support" which accompanies the customer PU could easily remove it. It's only a setting coded in software.


Seriously?? just do it again? Do you really think Merc would make it that easy to just unlock anytime they feel like it?


I don’t mind Grosjean being in F1, I have no idea where talk of him deserving a move up the grid comes from...


The Nutter was Magnussen.. not GRO!


Congratulation to Vettel on fine win although this will only make him wonder what might have been had he had not made mistakes/had mechanical DNF's earlier in the season . Vettel needs to use the win today and Abu Dhabi to send out a clear warning to Lewis ahead of next season . Impressive recovery drives from Hamilton and Ricciardo . Kimi has another anonymous race and Bottas is still lacking something . Max had a rather understated race by his recent high standards


What was so impressive by RIC and HAM???
The top three teams are so much faster then the rest. So for either of them getting into the top 6 was certain. Especially with the SC coming in.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Ric's double overtake was move of the day. But I CANNOT find it anywhere on youtube!! Very impressive so I've heard.
Don't know about Ham... Almost got a podium or something. Had a fortunate safety car (which DR had a hand in...) check this out for precision driving. Then have another think about Baku and what all that meant.


Had a fortunate safety car

According to JA the safety car did not help Ham's cause. He'd have been better off without it at that stage of the race.

Ricciardo Aficionado

"Better off without it..." is a stretch.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Well c63 I am not usually one to question JA's profound knowledge and wisdom regarding f1 but please enlighten me how he came to such a conclusion. Methinks it may be a case of the contraries...


please enlighten me how he came to such a conclusion

It's in the race analysis article.
'The accidents at the start helped Hamilton’s cause, boosting him to 14th place from 20th, but the Safety Car didn’t help him particularly.
That’s because when he was racing he was able to pick off one car every lap – and two per lap in the early stages.
So the five laps behind the Safety Car meant five fewer opportunities to overtake in the early stages and gain ground.'

Ricciardo Aficionado

Sounds like pure conjecture rather than fact.
Does it account for the gaps between cars with and without the SC?
Its highly likely that the regularity with which Hamilton picked off the bottom nine was contributed to by the SC bunching them up. That seems logical.


Ra, except that the sc came put on lap one, so the field hadn't spread out yet anyway. I think James' analysis is a bit more convincing than yours.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Tbh I haven't read the race report but I know at the time both commentators commented how helpful the safety car was for Hamilton.
You also have to consider the number of cars that took the chance to pit under SC. that also gifted ham a couple of spots.


Sounds like pure conjecture

Take it up with JA if you disagree - he said it not me. One thing that has been overlooked though is just how much the SC (that he helped create) saved Ric's bacon. He'd have lost 20 odd seconds to the pack after the crash and pitting for new boots would have cost another 20 seconds - I doubt he'd have made it up to 6th with a 40 odd second deficit at the end of lap 1.

Ricciardo Aficionado

If there was no SC then there was no incident and DR wouldn't need new boots.
As for taking it up with JA... He can justify himself if he's perturbed by my opinion. Something tells me he isn't.


Not necessarily ... Ricciardo was tapped on his right rear, which turned him around. There have been plenty of incidents like that, where nothing else has happened, and so no SC has been called. The SC was called because Vandoorne's suspension was broken, and his or KMag's front wing shed a few shards of carbon fibre. If it was just DR being spun around, then there would have been no SC, and it would have then been a much tougher race for him.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Valid point but lots of ifs...


perhaps this one ? @ 2:00 https://youtu.be/4tsiNsPLm70

Ricciardo Aficionado

Thanks TC. An appreciated link to be sure.


RA, I thought it was going to be a clip of Seb repeatedly accelerating and braking behind the safety car on Sunday, but it's of Seb overtaking Ricciardo in China, how does that relate to Baku?

Ricciardo Aficionado

It's the wheel bump TW. You see the precision with which DR and SV touched? It's like poetry in motion.
Conclusion... A bit of f1 wheel bumping is a thing of beauty to behold. Not the next great societal scourge leading our children down the path to ruin as some were prone to suggest after Baku.


Ra, an accidental wheel bump while racing for position is one thing, a deliberate bump while behind the safety car is quite another.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I can assure you the touch in the clip was quite deliberate


RA, so Danny Ric rammed Seb on purpose? Can you imagine the furore if Lewis did that?

Ricciardo Aficionado

I'm sure it's happened already Tim. The furore depends on the result. Mostly it's just racing.
However in no measure did DR "ram" Vettel in that clip.


Seb repeatedly accelerating and braking behind the safety car

I noticed that at the time and when I re-watched the race it was glaringly obvious. On C4 DC even remarked upon it and said something about what a good tactic it was - apart from it being expressly forbidden I suppose it was! How did Seb get away with that?


C63, he got away with it because Valterri wasn't daft enough to be right up his gearbox....


I’m sorry.. you lost me...
I literally have no clue what you are trying to say.



"I’m sorry.. you lost me..."

I think you've lost us! Not once have you used the word "talent" in relation to Daniel and Lewis and what's required to effect passes on tracks at upwards of 300kmph. Haven't you been listening to the commentators talk about Daniel's ability to carry extra speed into corners and confidence in late braking to get through traffic? Its not all about having a fast car under you.


Excuse me?! If you read some of my other comments you would know how high I rate RIC and especially HAM. But not by his 4 WDC or his pole record. That’s 50% car. But because of his driving skill, the way he turns in a corner, the way he applies the throttle etc.

Same goes for VET, VER etc.
And also ALO, who I admire for the same skill.
But somehow ALO didn’t manage to pass MAS. Yet HAM and RIC did. So I guess in your words, ALO is not as talented as HAM, RIC, who had the talent to effect passes on tracks at upwards of 300kmph!



Let's go back to your question above: "What's so impressive by RICC and HAM?" The answer is not just their ability to effect the passes they did but the entertainment value they brought to the race. Take out their slicing through the traffic and it would have been a pretty mundane race to watch, hence the television coverage primarily focusing on their exploits. But here's a question for you: If you believe what they achieved as being nothing special how would you then characterize their drives from respective 'dead last' positions on the grid to the edge of podium finishes, more so in the case of Lewis?Nothing special? What was expected of them? I don't know you tell me. If experienced F1 journalists like James Allen and Mark Hughes make special mention of it I would suggest their drives were anything but ordinary. But you are entitled to your opinion.


I respect everybody’s opinion.
Ofcourse HAM and RIC spiced up the show, but that was because nothing really happened anywhere. Only the MAS/ALO battle maybe.
But you have to remember that the Mercedes and RB are easy top 6 cars.
Every race the worst driver of the top 3 teams usually finish around 20 seconds on average in front of the first non top 3 teams. And now it is suddenly something special that a Mercedes and a RB pass a Sauber/TR/Haas/McLaren/FI and Williams??
RIC had some nice overtakes, but a RB passing a Sauber doesn’t make me jump out from my seat.
RIC finished 16 sec behind VER, who even made an extra pitstop. So without it, it would have been around 35. At the restart he was only 5 seconds behind VER. Yet he finished 20! seconds in front of P7!! If that doesn’t show you his RB was way faster then those he passed, I don’t know what else to say.
Hamilton had the fastest car on track period. On +35 old S‘s he was still lapping in the mid to high 1.12. His pass on ALO in Mexico was way more brilliant then anything he did in Brazil.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I was answering your question, what was so impressive about Ric and Ham...
I couldn't link to any of Ric's overtakes so I linked to another impressive piece of wheel to wheel (literally) action. Bumping wheels at race pace and under control is a precedent for Vettel's wheel bumping in Baku. All under control...


Bumping wheels at race pace is undoubtedly a skill - bumping wheels under SC conditions because of an imagined slight is something else altogether and is certainly not skilful in any way .

Ricciardo Aficionado

Precision mate.
Same as DR on Kimi at Monaco.
Unlike Vettel in Mexico. That was a lunge. Professional foul some might say.
Baku was just a good honest shove in the chest. With hindsight, Vettel got a bit huffy over nothing bud I don't think it was dangerous. Especially not as these guys can do it around corners at racing speeds.


I don't think it was dangerous

Only in so far as it would set a dangerous precedent I guess [if Vet was allowed to get away with it]. Sporting competitions have rules and the competitors are required to abide by those rules or there will be chaos. Imo it is unacceptable for one competitor to mete out justice to another as they see fit and not expect there to be consequences. The ref (stewards in this case) are in charge of whether one competitor has breached the rules and what action should result - not the competitors. Vet felt that he had been slighted (telemetry proved he was wrong) and attempted to take the law into his own hands and was always heading for a fall once he'd done so.

Ricciardo Aficionado

A dangerous precedent like Senna on Prost or Schumacher on Hill??


I see Senna on Prost as different to Schumacher on Hill. For me, Prost had it coming as he was quite happy to steer into Senna [at the chicane] the season before when the points tally favoured him doing so - he can't reasonably start crying when he gets a taste of his own medicine. Although cry he most certainly did - bleating on about it endlessly.
Schumacher on Hill though...Hill hadn't done anything to invite that sort of driving. Unreasonable way to behave - there's no pride in having the WDC trophy on your mantelpiece if you had to steal it to get it there.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I think the distinction between the two is correct. And Vet Ham is another type again. The point is, there is a precedent for bumper cars and yet it is not a commonplace occurence. Fear not the fabric of F1 ethic and order collapsing.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I agree. We don't want F1 to become bumper cars. But as a one-off flashpoint it was quite an entertaining flashpoint.
Besides that it IS actually necessary (within the rules and that to a stretch) for the drivers to stake out their ground on track. Just as Max has done. Just as Senna did. If other drivers are wary around one then that is a great advantage in wheel to wheel.


Baku was simply stupidity and rightly treated as such. The only thing danger was ego.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Yep. And one of the few incidences Seb contributed to losing the Championship.


@ Andre....The difference was obvious!!! Hamilton had a superior car with superior speed. The Red Bull had Ricciardo in a car that had limited power by comparison.


Limited power yes, but overall the RB was still the third fastest team on lap times. RIC was lapping mostly in the the hight 1.12 low 1.13 for most of the race while the first non top 6 car was lapping mostly mid 1.13 to mid 1.14. That’s why RIC finished 20 sec in front of Massa.

The gap between the top 3 teams and the rest has been big the whole year. On the average the other teams finish +20 sec from the worst top3 team driver in the race. And only in SPA, CAN, AZB, SIN and MEX they finished in the top 5.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Ok I see your point. But I think the RB dealing with all those Merc powered cars pretty impressive.


Which is why he had to brake extremely late and make it stick into the first corner to have a chance of getting through, unlike the merc that passed on the straight.


Bryce, you might want to watch those overtakes again...


I do want to watch them again, as I usually record all races and will see them generally play out as per my comment.


Bryce, pay special attention to Lewis' passes on Hartley and Perez, and Ricciardo's on Sainz.


@ Andre...Thanks for your confirmation. Red Bull are third fastest. Just proveds how dominant that Mercedes really is. In case you missed it, Hamilton stated in an interview that he just gets out front and then turns down the engine, managing his track domination. Now consider the margin Mercedes had when winning the WCC and that with conservative speeds, then imagine what they could really do if they pushed!!!

Ricciardo Aficionado

So it begs the question.... How early on (before we knew about it) were team orders employed at Merc? Because Ham and Ros whilst all that time leading races together never cleared out by a margin of a minute or so... So they must have been out front cruising. In that case where were all the Multi 21 incidents?? There weren't any because the drivers were under team orders the whole time and quite content following them. Mostly because mostly Rosberg was behind anyway and he never once looked close to overtaking Ham. It took until Spain (and Ham) to flout the team orders. Look how that turned out. Then suddenly Toto an Lauda start talking about bringing in team orders. Like it was a new idea!! I swear if there was an Oscars Championship Toto and Merc would be just as dominant. Toto is ALMOST as good an actor as Arnie.
At least with Lauda you're not entirely sure if he's acting. You know he blamed Lewis for Spain.
You read too much around here and you might have missed that.
BTw Kenneth what exactly is your problem with Hamikton? Is it him or is it the fans. I think they can both be pretty annoying but I'll give credit where it's due... They're both (Ham and his fans, not his two fans) very passionate about what they do. And they love each other immensely. Which is great. I admire them for it.
I hope you're part of the 61% Kenneth. Equality for all! Adios muchachos.


A slam dunk that Australia would vote for SSM. We never had a referendum on it here in Canada, but I suspect it would have yielded similar results. The more you can have people in loving & caring relationships with each other, the better for the overall society. They cynic would say "why shouldn't they be as miserable as the rest of us?" 😉

Ricciardo Aficionado

It was by no means a foregone conclusion KRB.
Liberals Coast to Coast breathed a sigh of relief I can assure you.


@ RA.... My problem with Hamilton? I don't have one. He's an extremely good and talented driver as i have repeatedly stated time after time but which you obviously haven't read or if you have, have chosen to ignore it. IMO Hamilton is not the 'god' that so many think he is. It is that simple.I also happen to believe that given the 'advantage' he's had with the car [lauda's comments] he's had a rails run. There are other drivers, once again IMO, that could do the same given the car. As for your final sentence....don't ever think for one minute that i support the Yes vote. Something is wrong with a society that allows basic changes to the foundations upon which it is constructed to suit a vocal and fixated minority.

Ricciardo Aficionado

Well I can't claim to have read all your comments but between the lines of what I've read there seems to be a latent distaste for Hamilton.
Acknowledgement of his talents doesn't necessarily negate a negative opinion of him. But it sounds like the issue is with his fans anyway. That, I can easily understand.
Aside from that, I'm not sure how you describe 61% as a minority.


@ RA You are simply distorting the issue to suit your position. How many actual LGBTQI's are there? Not 61%, i can guarantee you that.

Ricciardo Aficionado

I believe the issue was, should the law be changed to allow SSM? Sure it was an issue raised by a minority but the majority of society thought it was a good idea.
Regarding distortion, I think marriage as an institution has long been debased by societies disregard for it's sanctity. So I wouldn't worry about eroding that particular pillar of society. It's already pretty shaky.
Core fundamentals of freedom and respect remain. Though I'm sure you'd agree, that is a difficult and precarious relationship in itself.



As to your last sentence I am in total agreement. Let's see what legislative provisions are enacted to protect religious belief and free speach and how soon it will be before Left leaning governments seek to water down protective provisions.


Ra, that really is a load of cobblers!

Ricciardo Aficionado

Which bit?


RA. Pretty much all of it. You must have missed Spa 14, and the numerous occasions when Nico and Lewis banged wheels while in combat. You must also have missed Lewis overtaking Nico cleanly in Japan and USA in 2014, and the pair of them going at it hammer and tong in Bahrain 14. Nico did overtake Lewis in Cota 15, although Lewis was on an in lap. If Lewis broke team orders in Spain by trying to overtake in Spain, why isn't Nico guilty of the same offence by overtaking Lewis at the start?
You are right about Kenny having a problem with Lewis though.....,


I am sorry but I just don’t understand what you are trying to say here.

I only pointed out that if nothing happens in a race, Mercedes, Ferrari and RB will finish top 6 with the rest of the field finishing 20s behind on average.


Thank you kenneth. Finally a non biased comment. Of course Dan's performance far outweighed Hamilton's. Slower car and even instructed to move aside for Vers


David, did Daniel overtake any cars that were faster than his?


Not sure how many, but it was more than Lewis as they both passed the only one faster than him.


Bryce, just be clear I thought both Dan and Lewis drove extremely good races, but Dan only overtook slower cars than his. Either we are impressed by both drives, or neither......


I think Lewis is a great driver, having stated as such on many occasions and also said he had a good year, but cannot see anything special from Sunday's drive. Would not go near extremely good describing Daniel either.

Mind you, if I saw something remotely like it from Bottas I would most likely be heaping praise upon him and at the wondering where it came from or been.


I get your point Bryce, it may not have been the best race ever, but it was definitely the best one I watched on Sunday..


@ David...Thank you for that.


Max had a rather understated race by his recent high standards

Not unexpected hearing his comments just before the race. Red Bull has been struggling all weekend with the setup, and on top of that all Renault engines were downtuned for this race.


Driver of The Day is Lewis Hamilton
Superb come back.
Reckon if they kept him out for a few more laps on the first stint, he would've had abit more rubber to overtake Kimi. But his tyres wavered in the final laps.
Stroll dies he understand Blue flags?
Bottas is just keeping the seat warm for either Ricciardo or Ocon. His final season at Mercedes will next year. He did amazing yesterday and blew it on the first turn and on the restart.
Well done Massa.
Plonkers of the race Grosjean and as KMAG.
Well done to Ferrari but they had it easy after Lewis started from the pits. The speed Lewis had he would lapped half the cars midway if he started from the front.


Hardly a great comeback drive. Fastest car with modified PU.


Krischar, you could say something similar about all the dotd contenders. Why bother telling someone their opinion is wrong?


Agreed, but still made his teammate look second rate.


But his team mate did not had the V5 engine.