F1 Winter Break
2017
Singapore F1 Start accident: Were Raikkonen, Verstappen and Vettel all entitled to go for it?
News
Posted By: James Allen  |  18 Sep 2017   |  12:01 pm GMT  |  678 comments

There has been huge interest in the three way startline accident in Singapore which eliminated Sebastian Vettel, Kimi Raikkonen and Max Verstappen and handed victory and a handsome points lead to Lewis Hamilton.

So was anyone to blame? What is the case for each driver?

The FIA stewards heard from all three but decided that no single individual could be held responsible for the accident. That was a relief to Vettel, who has 7 penalty points on his licence and has had his fair share of warnings, especially after Baku. At 12 points a driver receives a one race ban?

All three are entitled to race. Vettel is entitled to make one covering move and he did. Kimi is entitled to try to capitalise on one of his best ever starts and Max is entitled to stay on his line, having got a better launch.

That’s why the stewards called it evens.

The case against Raikkonen

Of the three Raikkonen got the best start. He powered off the line and the onboard shot from Verstappen’s car clearly shows how much more momentum the Finn had as he came past on the left like a missile.

Raikkonen had about a metre and a half to the pit wall to play with on the left. The problem was that as he came through, his right rear wheel hit Verstappen’s left front. There was nothing Verstappen could have done to avoid that. He moves very slightly to the left as he sees Vettel coming across.

Had everyone stayed on their line and there was no contact, Raikkonen would certainly have got the ‘holeshot’ and although his angle into Turn 1 would have been tight, he would likely have been in the lead as the cars snaked right for Turn 2.

The case against Verstappen
Verstappen got the second best start. It was immediately clear from the head-on TV shot of the lights out that Verstappen’s launch was superior to Vettel’s ahead to his right on pole. That momentum continues through the acceleration phase and if no-one changes lines from this point, Verstappen will arrive at the braking point for Turn 1 ahead of Vettel.

Drivers can always sense immediately if someone around them has got a better launch. Their senses are hyper-alert to it and Verstappen knew that he had a real chance to beat Vettel into Turn 1, especially as he would have the inside line.

He may not have been aware of just how fast Raikkonen was travelling up to his left, as he was focussed on Vettel coming across on him from the right, knowing that he is compromised.

Verstappen changes line slightly to the left in anticipation and that is enough to put him on a trajectory where Raikkonen’s right rear runs over Verstappen’s left front, which caused the accident. It broke Verstappen’s suspension and also sent Raikkonen into the side of Vettel.

Some fans have suggested that Verstappen “should have lifted off”, but the trajectory would not have changed by doing that – he cannot simply disappear – and the critical first contact was that touch of Raikkonen’s rear wheel as he went past. That was all about the line.

The case against Vettel

Vettel had the most at risk as he was the one fighting for the world title. It seems he forgot that in the heat of the moment. His ‘sorry’ to the team on the radio as he parked his damaged car said it all and is the true verdict on the matter.

However, he is racing and as the pole position man, he is entitled to move across once to defend his line.

The head on shot and the on board from Verstappen’s car show that Vettel moved across a long way and kept on coming. Ultimately this is what caused the accident as there was nowhere for the three drivers to go on a converging trajectory. Seen from the outside it seems simple and inevitable.

One could argue that with seven races to go and at the start of a two hour race where his title rival Hamilton is starting in fifth place, Vettel should have taken the long view.

But his mindset will have been affected by the rain that was falling and the fact that in recent years Hamilton has won virtually all the wet or rain affected races. As Hamilton said afterwards, “As soon as it rained I knew where I was going to finish. I knew I had the pace when it rains. Unfortunately we just didn’t have the car in the dry.

“But today, with it raining, those are my conditions.”

In a dry race, with a start like that Vettel would have approached it differently, knowing that the threat from Hamilton was less significant. But in the wet he could not afford to give anything away at the start, hence the insistence on the move across.

Vettel’s move was reminiscent of some similar moves that Michael Schumacher made off the startline in his Ferrari days, which was a talking point at the time in Drivers’ Briefings, as the rules on what was and wasn’t acceptable at the start were defined.

Ultimately the price he has paid has been high. Not only is it a fourth win in five races for Hamilton and a 28 point lead, but it’s another moment which casts some doubt in the mind of Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne. He sees things in black and white and the objective here is for Ferrari to win the world championship.

They have built a wonderful car this year, whereas the Mercedes is a bit tricky and temperamental. And yet Ferrari finds itself now out of control of the championship, not least due to valuable points dropped in Baku and Singapore.

Ferrari’s long winless streak creates nervousness in the team and missing out this year will create greater nerviness next year. In that scenario one can imagine a leader like Marchionne deciding next summer that he needs another hot rod in his second car.

That is the risk for Vettel.

How JA on F1 readers call it

JA on F1 readers have taken part in a snap poll with over 2000 voting in a few hours and clearly 75% call it Vettel’s fault.

What do you think? Leave your comments in the section below

Featured News
Editor's Picks
Share This:
Posted by:
Category:

Add comment

E-mail is already registered on the site. Please use the login form or enter another.

You entered an incorrect username or password

Sorry, you must be logged in to post a comment.

678 comments

by Oldest
by Best by Newest by Oldest
1

Yes that sums it up nicely. 76% Vettel's fault, 17% no ones fault.
We have to remember these judgements are made in a split second in a physically taxing environment and limited information. But that is the sport they choose to excel in.
So I don't judge Vettel too harshly, but it was down to him, it will be a consequence of that move from time to time and he's done it before and got away with it.

2

On F1.com they have about 7 replays of the accident, all raw footage with no commentary. It's great!
And I think it gave me a very different perspective, after I initially thought SV was mostly to blame. Watching it raw, MV and SV both have rubbish starts. MV is never ahead of or looking close to being ahead of SV. From SV's on car camera, MV's car is never in view alongside before the accident.
KR has by far the best start andnis absolutely on it for first place into first corner. MV moves to the left, not because of SV I think, but because of KR beating him off the start. He's trying to do to KR what SV is trying to do to him. Max has the old red mist again that he just can't control. At the moment he moves left, he has no reason to be doing so because of SV, he's nowhere near passing him or beating him to corner 1 at that point. He's mearly trying to cover his crap start by blocking KR, and he gets it all wrong.
Poor racecraft by MV, he just can't help himself, he never knows when to back off and it's why he's getting his backside handed to him by DR this year.
So I'm gonna apportion all blame to SV & MV, tipping mostly to MV which is controversial I'm sure. KR has zero blame in my eyes, he deserved to be first into corner 1, but Max couldn't handle it.
Before I wateched the raw footage, I apportioned most blame to SV. And I don't like SV at all, so I was pretty comfortable with that. But watching those videos again, MV was never there, was never, ever going to make that pass and should never have tried to cover off KR. He was beaten fair and square.

3

'Unglaublich.. how some discussion boys (mainly from Germany) wriggle themselves in every corner to clear Herr Vettel from aggressive behavior. And to free him of being the main blame for causing the so called "Kettenreaktion". It is absolutely clear that Vettel fears Max Verstappen (Brazil 2016). He was from the first moment on determent to prevent MV from gaining an advantage. He was fighting MV from the start while his main rival (Hamilton) was 4 positions back. If Vettel had concentrated on the race line and positioned his car in the best way to attack the apex in the coming left-hand corner, he would never have been completely on the left side of the track. After all he new that Hamilton (and Ricciardo) would be on the right hand side of the track carrying a lot of speed possibly going around the outside. Which they did resulting in a 1>2 finnish in the end. The worst thing of all of this is that he was not blamed by the Stewart's for anything due to championship-politics, with the ridiculous argument that he was already punished enough by loosing points. What about Verstappen losing possible points? While he had already so much bad luck this season? The argument that Vettel could not see Raïkönnen is a non argument because Vettel was, by his move to the left, not only blocking Verstappens path but alsoRaïkönnens path. Raîk. was starting behind Verstappen and in this case it did not matter if he had a good, normal or bad start. Vettel was blocking the way of entry anyway. Ah.. Well this so called 'racing incident' was avoidable by Vettel and by Raïkönnen. I stated that Vettel is to blame for his diagonal move pushing aggressively Max aside but that does not mean that Raïk. is free of blame. The invalid argument that Vet. did not see Raïk.'s car is not relevant. Relevant is that Raïkkönnen saw Vettel's car and the foto's from slightly above and behind + the onboard footage show this clearly. Raïk. could see Vet. swerving to the left towards Verstappens car, he could assume that Ver. would try to avoid contact with Vet. by veering left as well. Instead of backing of or steering a little left to (there was some room left) Raïk. thundered straight on to collision course.The worse thing in the whole affair is that the stewarts called it a racing incident and this was clearly not. A racing incident is when a driver loses his car without the purpose to lose it. In this case the deliberate move of Vet. triggered a collision taking out three cars and himself. I have to say that Max Verstappens mishap this season is not a funny thing.. Jokes about his misfortune hurt me deeply because I admire his racing skill and I love his personality and I do respect his demeanor in handling all the setbacks. I want to remark that when someone calls Hamilton "the rain-master" I want you to remember that there is a new kid on the block that handles tricky conditions on the track as well as your "master". Imagine what this boy could have done if he had had a change in Singapore. Vettel did not only took out himself and three drivers with him, he deprived and robbed us all from what could have been a Masterfull and magnificent Grand Prix. The exitement in the first 30seconds does not pay for this loss.'

4

totally ignoring the fact that Max moved left to cover Kimi before Seb was anywhere near him

5

I agree , MV did not have the edge on SV , watching the footage from a German transmission with a camera above the track you can see that SV
was making a move all the way across the track , he claimed not to see Kimi
but this was a kind of admission that in fact it was Kimi he was trying to eventually block ! I am surprised no one has pointed this out. Had MV braked violently , Vettle would have collided with Kimi.

6

Jeez.. lots of words to make a unfounded statement. At least the Max is guilty followers found your post 😉
But even reading your theory, ask yourself.. why should Max not do the same Vettel did?
Ah.. just missed that one di you..

7

Luke, if you look at the picture taken immediately prior to impact it is clear Kimi could have moved to the left in avoidance. It's also clear that Seb had a hige amount of room to his right. Not sure where Max should have gone though...

8

Red Bull sandwich

9

Why would you want the guys which are in front to move over for the guy who is behind? The hole idea of passing someone is to find a way around that guy. Kimi had just done that with Maxx and Sebastian had just blocked him.
My view is that it was obvious like 2 seconds before this shot that Maxx had nowhere to go. He should have backed of before he started to steer left. I can understand that everything happened extremely fast and that with hindsight we are all better F1 drovers than they all are😉, but from here to say that Kimi was supposed to move away or that Seb had to leave room just because you want to blame Ferrari or Vettel I don't think is fair. I think it would be much more correct to admit that Max made a poor decision and went too far with bad consequences for all the 3 of them.

10

Is anyone else having their completely benign comments continuously censored?

Not cool, James.

11

Yes a number of others cross the line and are treated the same

The posts of yours which were deleted were abusive to other posters and had obscene language

Not cool

12

All Vettel's fault.

In your attempt to not blame Vettel you missed some important points;
1. Vettel earned the best line into turn one, ie he did an amazing lap to win pole. There was no need for him to move across so aggressively. He messed his start up, then lost his sh*t like he does.

2. Vettel has a LONG history of 'red mist' bad tempered driving where he looses his sh*t and drives/behaves dirty - he has the penalty points to prove it! Reflect on his Baku race, or the, "f*ck off Charlie" race, or the drive across into his team mate (Webber) race.

So Max is a tough driver who's made bad rookie calls, but few would look at Max's history and call him a dirty driver, where that can easily be said about Vettel from his history.

13

@Ted, I guess you forgot that Charlie Whiting said Max could have been black flagged last year for his dirty driving again Kimi Raikonnen. I think it was Spa. I have been watching this sport for decades and it is the only time I can remember the issue of black flag coming up over the past 20 years.

14

You are cherry picking, here is what Charlie said:


"The main thrust of what I said to Max is that whilst we like the competitive type of driving he's providing us with, he needs to be careful not to go over the top," Whiting told Autosport.

"Sometimes he is just a little bit too aggressive, shall we say.

"He just needs to be careful he doesn't get a bad name for himself because if, heaven forbid, there was an accident caused by what is judged to have been Max's over-exuberant driving then all these things will come back to haunt him.

"He fully accepted it. We had a very amicable chat, and he got the point."

Whiting insisted the 18-year-old, who has bit back at claims he should change his style, did not actually contravene any regulations.

"There was no rule broken, otherwise something would have been done about it," he said.

"But the initial remarks from Ferrari were that he moved more than once to defend a position, so we looked at it from that perspective and he didn't move more than once.

"He moved to the right - albeit late I said at the time - and then he moved back towards the left, but he left enough room on the left to let Kimi pass.

"That's the requirement of the regulations, which he did perfectly, and that was fine for us.

"There are no rules that say at what point you must move, but you shouldn't move in the braking zone.

"I mentioned it to the stewards. I said I'd had this complaint, that I had dealt with it and there wasn't anything for them to investigate, and they agreed."

Dismissing any notion of an unwritten drivers' code of conduct, Whiting added: "It's just a move that was on the edge of being acceptable, but just the right side of it."

There was a moment where a black flag would have been appropriate, Baku, where Vettels' road rage set a very bad example for the next generation of drivers in other racing classes.

15

You can't remember the issue of a black flag coming up in the past 20 years?!? Baku this year?! That sort of behaviour is exactly what a black flag is for. Schumacher squeezing Rubens at Hungary '10? Massa & Fisichella getting black flagged at CAN '07 for leaving the pits when pit exit wasn't green?

16

@Ted : both points that you consider that I have missed have nothing to do with the incident in Singapore GP2017. Yes, Vettel has made stupid and even dangerous moves in his career, but this was not the case. In this case he was just defending his position and did nothing illegal. His move was much less agressive than any defensive move that Max has ever done. In this case Max is the one that wants to get past without realising that he was beeing passed by Kimi. The normal way to react when he became aware of Kimi on his left was to just back off completely and try to slot in 3rd. He did not do that. I believe that he hoped he could push Kimi to the wall the same way that Vettel was coming towards him. It was by far too late for that. Kimi was already in front by more than half of a cars' length and it was already to late for Max to avoid the accident. Only than he panicked and lifted off which meant that he touched Kimi. At that point in order to avoid the accident Max needed to turn a bit right and lift off at the same time, but given the speed at which all was happening I think the accident was unavoidable by that stage.

17

Max is halfway alongside Seb, so if he keeps moving over, he's going to have contact. There are some on here who say that Seb had straightened out before he got to Max, which it total nonsense. If that were true, why does he end up directly ahead of Max afterwards?!?

18

Razvan. Kimi was behind, so why should Max move for him?

19

Haha good joke...

20

@TimW,

Duh, because Max did move for him, significantly to the right as he came off the line, then tried to slam the door once he saw the prancing horse had bolted. Seriously, have you watched any of the footage?

21

Where did I sau that? Kimi had already passed Max- he was more than half a car in front of him. I only said that max had not done the same with Seb. He was never in front of him and there was no room for him to get in front of Seb. I can agree that at those speeds one should not say that Max Did that on purpose but in my view he is 100% responsible for the incident.

22

Max had plenty of room. He didn't *have* to hit Kimi at all.
And - as this photo clearly shows - certainly not because of Vettel.

At any point prior to this photo - where Max has foolishly chosen to deliberately interlock his wheels with Kimi's - Max could have simply breathed the throttle a hair, and slid in behind Seb to prepare for the approaching corner.

23

All so simple, eh? If Vettel had just kept going straight, there would've been no contact. Vettel's speed was already slightly less than Max's, then add in the angle of his movement and it guaranteed there'd be contact.

24

TimW: the photo you show is *after* impact, when Max has already hit Kimi which pushes Max toward Vettel, and turns Kimi in front of Max - closing up the space in front of him. And Vettel is *still* almost entirely in front of Max by this point, with at least a meter between them.

25

@Luke
My sentiments exactly! I went through the exact same change of view. Initially I thought Seb was to blame but after watching the raw footage over and over it became pretty clear that Max is the culpable party here. He moved significantly to the right off after launch and then moves back left, probably because he saw a flash of red in left mirror thereby initiating the crash. I really hope Charlie Whiting and/or the FIA looks into this because Max is involved in way too many controversies. Very talented kid but still a little boy in terms of experience and judgment.

26

But Vettel is allowed to do that?
Strange fans...

27

Exactly. Max had plenty of room. He didn't *have* to hit Kimi at all.

And - as this photo clearly shows - certainly not because of Vettel:

28

Luke

If you're now going to apportion more blame to Verstappen (in your words "tipping mostly to MV") perhaps you'd like to explain why just after Vettel spun out and stopped he apologised profusely over the team radio. Seemingly an admission that he skrewed up?

Regardless as to where people want to apportion blame the fact is that Vettel new that this was a race he had to win or at least score heavily to wrench some of the momentum back from Hamilton. He is experienced enough to know that there is usually a high probability of contact and collisions occurring at race starts and therefore not to attempt to do anything risky. IMO he got spooked at the thought of Verstappen taking the lead into turn 1 and overreacted by aggressively moving to cut Verstappen off. A more considered and composed response was required but once again he's shown that he's susceptible to pressure. Perhaps the responsibility of being the number one driver at Ferrari is too much for him.

29

Dude ... if your dad dies and I tell you "ow ... I'm sorry" ... doesn't mean I killed him, right ......... if SV himself though he was at fault, he would never EVER say so .. unless it was proven for a fact .. not to the press in post interviews .. and for sure not over team radio that can be braudcast all over the world. He probably does it behind closed doors with Ferrarri .. sure .. but not out in public .. and if you think he does or will ... you haven't been paing attention this year 😉

30

Philippe

Dude / Mate, whatever you prefer. Perhaps you haven't noticed by now but whenever Vettel is cleaned up or is infringed by another driver and he recons he's not to blame he's pretty vocal and animated in what he says to his Pit Wall. In other words he's got a lot to say! Don't believe me? Go back and listen to his tirade in the closing stages of the Mexican GP last year.

After spinning out in Singapore there was not a hint of him blaming Verstappen or any other driver. Quite the contrary he was simply asked to turn his engine off and he then said in a depressed voice: "Sorry guys, sorry, I'm so sorry."

Now of course he's not going to accept liability for the incident and he put his own spin on what happened when interviewed by the press but what he said over the team radio was a window into the fact that he knew that his actions contributed to him crashing out.

31

Adrian, Seb hadn't seen the footage at that point, so he wouldn't have known that Max hit Kimi, also after reading the transcript, Vettel says P0, sorry guys, so could that be he was apologising for P0? most likely

32

Fair to say that all drivers are animated when they know or believe they have been taken out directly by another driver, geez even the normally reserved RIC let slide (justifiably) at VER recently. Seb said he did not know what had happened behind, which even Lewis stated he would not have known exactly where or what the others were doing, so to whom was he to apportion blame.

He did see his fellow red car cannon into him, so maybe he could have yelled abuse at Kimi. What he did know was that Lewis went past in the lead and both red cars were out, so would have been feeling very downcast.

33

In the stewards room, Vettel apparently said that "things could have been done differently, but it doesn't matter now, what's done is done." He had to have known it was a high-risk maneuver, and this time it came up snake eyes.

34

On all the pre-race interviews MV and Christian Horner said that they have nothing to lose unlike ferrari and will go for it. For me that was a kamikaze move from MV, and he announced it before

35

Utter nonsense. I have a dashcam and it doesn't show what's out my side window. Fortunately I have a neck which allows me to turn my head.

Just because something isn't visible on Vettel's camera that doesn't mean he can't see it. He absolutely knew Max was there. Max had a better start than Vettel and unless they changed the rules, overtaking is part of racing. Vettel closed the door without realising that Kimi was there, limiting Max's options.

I don't believe the Red Bull has a "teleport" button, which is the only way Max could have gotten out of the way of converging Ferraris.

Racing incident to be sure. Caused by Vettel's dramatic swing to the left. You can't blame the guy who drives in a straight line. Max was n no way at fault here. I'm no fan of the guy, but I have eyes and it's clear what happened.

36

@ Jim...Have you watched the start in slomo? If you do that frame by frame you'll see Verstappen skewing to the right towards Vettel prior to his his straightening out. That was an intimidatory gesture. Maybe that's what Vettel was covering. Besides that though, Vettel can make one move, which he did.

37

Kenneth. Max can make a move as well you know....

38

an ""an intimidatory gesture.""... it;s called racing and look at the widht of the track.. VET has more room to spare.. and so does Kimi.
Both kept a close look at VER and the result is bad for everybody.

39

At every point, Seb is giving Max more room than Max is giving Kimi.

40

No he's not! With every forward metre, Seb is giving less and less room to Max. No one closed down more space than Seb did to Max/Kimi.

41

@Kenneth - yes I have. Note I'm not saying Vettel should be penalised - he already was effectively. He was protecting his lead by trying to intimidate Verstappen. Nothing wrong with that at all - most pole-sitters would do that, particularly if they didn't make a great start, like Vettel. He didn't realise that Kimi had made a lightning start which prevented Verstappen from swerving away. Verstappen started to move as he saw Vettel come across, then straightened up as he saw Kimi. There was nothing else he could do.

Verstappen didn't "skew" right - he edged right as you'd expect to try and straighten the first corner as much as possible. As Vettel came to the left, Verstappen straightened out then Kimi came roaring past and three cars were sharing the same bit of tarmac.

Those people who are suggesting that Verstappen should have braked are clueless - all this happened in a fraction of a second, and a racer's instinct is NOT to back off. No way could Verstappen have gotten out of the way - even if he was obliged to, which he wasn't. There's no law that say the driver being overtaken must move out of the way.

It was a racing incident, which wouldn't have happened if Vettel hadn't come hard left. He was the only one making such a dramatic move so if one really wants to use the word "blame," it should be levelled at Vettel.

It seems that some people are suggesting that Verstappen should have backed off simply because the other two cars are Ferraris. Those people should imagine that the Ferraris were Mercs and honestly ask themselves if they'd feel the same.

42

Jim, you have it right. Those blaming Verstappen are clueless, and have no idea about racing.

43

Didn't you read in the write-up that Vettel is entitled to one covering move as the pole-sitter, & you still think he's to blame by making that move? My argument is, Max should have expected that move and should have watched his left & when he saw Kimi coming, should have backed off.

44

@ifeanyi. Not sure if your comment is directed at me, the threads lose a bit of coherence once they're indented a couple of levels.

But if so, then: Yes. Not only did I read it in the write-up, I knew it already. If you had read MY comment, you'll have seen that I didn't blame anyone. In fact I used the words "racing incident."

I think it's ridiculous to assume that Max could keep an eye on Vettel to his right, AND watch Kimi roaring up on his left.

Expecting a move is one thing, compensating is something else. Are you saying you think Verstappen should immediately have driven right to the left hand edge of the track? Thereby ruining his own line into the first corner? Especially as Verstappen had a better launch and was actually overtaking Vettel?

As you'll have noticed if you're paying attention, no professional commentators have suggested that Verstappen was obliged to capitulate his position on the track. I'm mystified by those that seem to think everyone should get out of the way of a Ferrari just because it's a Ferrari. If Verstappen should have gotten out of Kimi's way, then by the same reasoning, Vettel should have gotten out of Verstappen's way. Kimi was faster than Verstappen and on the inside line; Verstappen was faster then Vettel and on the inside line.

Incidentally, if you watch the start again from the aerial view you'll see that Kimi was moving TOWARDS Verstappen, away from the pit wall.

45

Your argument would have stood if Verstappen was overtaking Vettel, but he was not. He was still almost behind Vettel's rear when it happened, and Raikonnen had overtaken Max. Kimi had more than half-car length ahead already. So your argument doesn't hold- Verstappen would never had been before Vettel into turn one and he should have known that

46

Have to say I've not heard many F1 people, people who work in the business, who think it was MV's fault

47

For me it is not simply a matter of fault, more so the choices made with the knowledge available to each of them. Max made two, if not three decisions that contributed to the incident, with The red car drivers making one each, Seb to change his line to go left and Kimi to maintain his line.

All three knew both on the front row did not have an ideal start and whilst VET could likely see that VER had created room on the other side by moving toward him from lights out, unlike Max, he could not know where or how fast RAI was travelling.

It is obvious that Max had the most knowledge of the unfolding situation and thus the most options available. As his move back to his left is basically simultaneous with the VET move, the big unknown for me is whether such a hasty move by Max is aimed to try and close the opening he created for Kimi, rather than reacting basically simultaneously to Seb who is not only still well over and ahead, but much less of a threat. I now lean towards the former, thinking that VER was trying in vain to slam the gate on an already bolting RAI.

Either way, Max chose to go right, then left and not to really back off or brake, placing his wheel adjacent to Kimi's sidepod. He then ran the gauntlet of a spinning and sliding car, another poor choice.
Conversely, RIC and HUL kept themselves well clear, with Nico giving himself an opportunity for his first podium and his Bull teammate grabbing another podium appearance.

48

@JA, I think what a bunch of us are saying is that it was racing incident, but that the rush to blame Vettel was premature. As many of us have written, a careful after the fact examination of all the footage shows that MV makes two significant moves, one to the right and then back to the left. His move to the left clearly sets off the crash. Did he have to move left because of Vettel? It's not clear he did. In any case, I think most of us still call it a very unfortunate racing incident. The fact that it involved a little boy with little experience, albeit plenty of talent, is probably no coincidence. Heck he wiped out his own teammate at the start just a few weeks with his arrogance and stupidity.

49

Fortunately, we have objective proof - which is always better than opinion who may or may not have biases. And this photo alone proves it *was indeed* 100% Max's fault:

50

Indeed, it's only Vettel/Ferrari fans and Verstappen haters who try and twist it so they can blame Verstappen.

51

VER could brake, he was behind both Ferraris. Still he chose to push the envelope. So did VET.

52

VER could have used the button andlaunched his car over the Ferrari.. whynot?

53

How can Verstappen be behind the Ferrari's when Kimi is launched over his wheel....

54

Kimi could have braked, he was behind both Vettel and Verstappen to start with. What makes it incumbent on Verstappen to brake but not Kimi? Kimi was overtaking Verstappen; Verstappen was overtaking Vettel. Kimi -> Verstappen = Verstappen -> Vettel.

55

@Jim,
Kimi has a clear path past Verstappen because Verstappen choose to move right coming off the line, then he slammed the door causing the crash. All happened in a flash so calling it an unfortunate first corner racing incident seems reasonable. I originally blamed Vettel but after carefully studying what happened it is clear that Max initiates the crash with his move back left. Did Vettel force the issue? That is what makes it ambiguous because if Max had not moved left we don't know what would have happened. Would Vettel hit Max? Not sure, it kind of looks like Vettel would have cleared him. Kimi probably would have taken the corner first although not from the ideal line. Let's call it a racing incident and move on, but the initial rush to judgment agains Vettel isn't all that fair in hindsight.

56

@Robert,

Kimi is moving across to the right - if he'd stayed on the left of the track he'd have got past Max without incident. Max moves left because he can see Seb veering across, he can't at the same time be watching his left mirror to see what Kimi is doing.

I'm not judging Vettel, I'm just defending Max. I have no great love for either of them but what happened was pretty clear.

57

@Jim, you are the only person on the planet who claims that Kimi is moving to the right. As I have made clear over and over again I am willing to call it an unfortunate racing incident, but the rush to blame Vettel was premature and I was one of them. Max is clearly the most culpable party here with his double move, but again I can accept the steward's position.

58

I admire your painstaking research. Asking 7 billion other people what they thought is an amazing feat. Well done you.

You believe what you like, I just looked at the footage and it's pretty clear.

But... whatever you think, I'm sure that's the really real thing.

59

Jim. Kimi had already overtaken Max when everything happened. The truth is that while Kimi had fou d a way to do it, you cannot say the same about Max and Seb. At no time was Max in front of Seb so you can't say that he was overtaking anyone. One post earlier you were saying that we should imagine Mercs instead of Ferraris. I propose to you to imagine a british driver in a british based team instead of Vettel. It is the same point.

60

Yes, I would feel the same no matter what team the cars were from. Also, if your dashcam was fitted in your backseat area to simulate the location of an onboard shot, pretty sure you would be able to view a hell of a lot more. Of course the peripheral view of a human eye would see plenty more than that.

61

Only Verstappen of those three could see the whole picture. I doubt both Kimi and Vettel saw each other.

62

@Eugene: that's just not true. Kimi could have seen Vettel beyond Verstappen. Expecting Verstappen to judge the position of his car relative to a car coming hard left towards him, while simultaneously monitoring the position of Kimi coming from the other direction, is ridiculous, especially at those speeds.

I think a healthy dose of reality check is needed by those inclined to blame Verstappen. Or maybe some lessons in critical thinking.

63

If Verstappen brakes then Raikkenon still runs over Verstappen's front left wheel with his right rear.

64

@Gary, WRONG! Not if Verstappen held his line after his first move to the right, the problem is he moves back left to block Raikonnen.

65

Well he has to learn to stop putting his front wheels in the sidepod areas of other cars and especially that of his sister car, not to mention his rears over others front wings. Also, if VER brakes instead of turning left to cover the hole he opened up for RAI, the later is well ahead and the race continues for all three of them. Simple physics

66

VER wasn't overtaking anyone

67

This is my fave comment! Look: Kimi.Ran.Into.MV! (RR into LF). If Max had touched the brakes then Kimi would have hit a few milliseconds earlier. I just don't get this "could brake" pov.

68

Max could have braked *before* he steered his car into an inter-locking situation with Kimi's wheels.

And photos prove Vettel was still 1.5 to 2 meters away, so you can't use him as an excuse.

69

@jjredfishax

"Max could have braked *before* he steered his car into an inter-locking situation with Kimi's wheels."

THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT! Max clearly set off the melee. Was he squarely to blame given that it was the start and Vettel's move left. That is what is debatable. I have no issue with those who want to blame Max or call it a racing incident, but to claim he was totally innocent in this is ridiculous.

70

totally agree
very succinct

71

Wrong. Verstappen hit Kimi. Vettel wasn’t even close.

72

But Seb keeps on coming doesn't he? His trajectory is still taking him closer to Max.

73

TimW: Vettel and Max are driving at the same angle, Max has at least 1.5 meters of space laterally, and Vettel is already almost entirely in front of him.

Max didn't *have* to hit Kimi, he *chose* to hit Kimi (or, possibly, he didn't realize he was hitting Kimi).

74

Jjred, you keep saying Max hit Kimi, but Kimi was the overtaking driver who chose to go for a very tight gap.

75

TimW: There wasn't even a "tight gap", much less a "very tight gap".

Kimi had plenty of room because Max angled away from him to block Seb. Then Max saw Kimi driving straight through and cut back hard to block him. Here they are dead-even and Kimi still has plenty of room on *both* sides of his car:

76

Yeah, but Max has a choice to lift slighting so his wing fits, and more importantly, Max has a choice NOT to hit Kimi. He chooses otherwise.

77

Sebee, he did lift.

78

Max should have lifted *before* he moved so far over that he interlocked his wheels with Kimi's.

79

You do understand that moving to the right results in a VET/VER crash..?

80

Even at the closest point, Max always had at least a meter between his car and Vettel's. The other 90% of the time he had much more.

81

TimW, Don't try to bother reasoning with these internet keyboard warriors. They've got their 'I hate Max Verstappen' hat on so tight it's restricting the oxygen flow to the brain.
No matter what you say, they'll always try to twist it so that Max is to blame. He''l if the could they'd probably would blame him for Senna's Death even tho he wasn't even born yet.
They're a pathatic lot actually. When i read those comments i can only smile at the thought they're in for a rough time watching F1 the comming decade and a half. Because Max will be there to enoy them.
And this goes for all so called 'fans' who are blinded by hate for a particular driver.
If even Jacques Villeneuve says Max is not to blame, you know there is only one guy to blame and thats Vettel.

82

@PMR
Hopefully Max will be a better and more mature driver by then, but until then he is an arrogant little boy who is still learning the ropes. I was a huge critic of LH when he came in to the sport because of his idiotic mistakes, but he grew immensely from his experiences and he has become the consummate professional. For now we have to put up with Max's growing pains as did his teammate DR a few weeks ago. First time two Ferraris taken out on first lap their history and no surprise that Max was involved.

83

Oh, so when Villeneuve agrees with you "internet keyboard warriors" he's awesome and you use him to support your case. When he doesn't, he's bloody nuts, out of his mind!

Why don't you think for yourself instead of throwing others into the mix? Why do you need your view point supported by other "experts" when you can clearly see that:
Max hits Kimi
Max doesn't have to hit Kimi
Max already lost P2 to Kimi before he hit him, fair and square
Max has room to Vettel not to have to hit Kimi or Vettel

It seems that perhaps Jos, who in his short 8 year F1 carrier had 57 retirements for various reasons obviously (incredible 54% RET statistic for all races entered!), but many crashes, has instructed his son to never lift and never back out so that you establish a reputation early of never backing down. And here is the result of that approach. Not only Max hits someone first when we didn't have to and everyone ignores it like he's an angel, he actions are taking out people who had nothing to do with it too.

Only justice here is that Kimi collected Max into the turn - Karma, ain't she something?

And for those who think that Kimi had room on the wet painted surface to his left, beyond the white line boundary of track limits, here is Jos himself to demonstrate what would have happened if Kimi touched that wet glossy painted surface under hard acceleration of an F1 start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfnjDxrREnI

Kimi moved left to the outside limit of the track to give Max more room and time and did absolutely nothing wrong, taking P2 from Max fair and square. Max however, wouldn't have it. So he hit Kimi.

84

Kimi seems to forgot his rear is wider than his front. Kimi had lots of space to the right.. there was no need at alle to be there on that moment.
Of course Max could use his rocket launcher and jumped over the Ferraris.. but hey, that's only in the F1 movies you seem to look.

85

Dude, and I'm the one spamming?

The front and rear width of the car is the same!

...And actually there is regulation that the width is to not exceed 2 meters. The extra width of the rear tire goes toward the inside of the car.

Max seems to have forgotten that when his front wheel is touching Kimi's side pod, and that this is not the width of the car. Either that or he does so on purpose.

Are you Max's pal or something?

86

Wrong.

The maximum width of an F1 car at the back - including the tires - is ***exactly the same*** as the maximum width of the front.

It was not Kimi's responsibility cede ground to Max, but it *WAS* Max's responsibility to keep from running into another car.

87

THANK YOU! Someone knows what the heck they are talking about around here for goodness sake.

88

Wow...! that picture kind of blows a whole in the whole "Vettel squeezed max and he had nowhere to go!" chant from the masses. There he is already overlapping wheels with Kimi and Vettel is over a meter away from him still. Crazy!

My take? Vettel made a really aggressive move at Max to play chicken and get him to back down even though he had a slight advantage going into T1. Max tried to stay in it and wasnt paying attention to Kimi as he moved over to the left... boom

The only person without fault here is Kimi, the only person who could see both of the cars from this 3 way was Max, Vettel is fighting for the championship.

The pole (as it always is on this site) is just a popularity contest.

89

The pole (sic) (as it always is on this site) is just a popularity contest.

Although I agree the poll is a bit skewed (I don't think Vettel has to carry such an overwhelming blame for the incident) that last insulting part you could have left out - if I support a driver on the grid doesn't mean that I can't objectively look at a critical situation on the track without prejudice.

90

The problem with the still pic is it doesn't show the end of Seb's swerve. He was still moving to the left when that pic was taken, and continued to do so.

91

Seb is always at least a meter clear of Max, which is much more room than Max gives Kimi.

And even more importantly, of course, Seb doesn't hit anyone...

92

I heard, from a reliable source, that Max is considering eye surgery so he can move both eyes independendly from each other.

When you are starting slightly faster then the driver right of you, and that driver aggresively moves toward you, you focus your attention to that driver. Sure Max knew that Kimi was coming from the left but his main attention was on Vettel. When Max realized he was running out of space, it was already too late, having Kimi moving slightly to the right and their wheels interlocked, and Vettel blocking his exit on the right. Thats what happened and nothing more.

Vettel had the right to make that move but it was too aggresive. Max had every right to keep his position on the track and his reaction to Vettels move was natural.
Kimi had every right to pass Max on the left and was also entitled to move a bit to the racing line as well.

No-one is blaming Kimi but he was the one that knew where Max was and also could see Vettel coming to the left. I figure he thougth he had cleared Max when he moved to the right and that Max would foolow Vettel into the corner.

One must take into account that we have the opportunity to watch the replays over and over again, at all different replay speeds but they have only one chance to nail it, within fractions of a second.

Just leave it as it is. A racing incident with no-one to blame.

93

(..)Max knew that Kimi was coming from the left but his main attention was on Vettel. When Max realized he was running out of space, it was already too late, having Kimi moving slightly to the right and their wheels interlocked, and Vettel blocking his exit on the right.

One must take into account that we have the opportunity to watch the replays over and over again, at all different replay speeds but they have only one chance to nail it, within fractions of a second.

After reading all the comments from these couple of articles - all related to the crash, I find yours to be the most balanced and most grounded in reality. I took the liberty to underline the points that needed to be understood by those discussing this crash.

94

"Sure Max knew that Kimi was coming from the left but his main attention was on Vettel. When Max realized he was running out of space, it was already too late, having Kimi moving slightly to the right and their wheels interlocked, and Vettel blocking his exit on the right. Thats what happened and nothing more."

This is the right answer. It's ridiculous that some are trying to unload all the blame on Verstappen. Ultimately Vettel was the catalyst because he was overly aggressive when moving across

95

Nope. Vettel gives Max FAR more room than Max gives Kimi. And Max could have *easily* breathed his throttle just a hair before he interlocked his wheels with Kim:

96

Yeah, it's crazy that people could even try to blame Seb for this. And I don't think he was really even trying to play chicken. He was doing the same "cover the inside" maneuver that just about everyone on pole position does. And he wasn't even particularly aggressive about it (it took him most of the length of the straight to move across half of the track), compared to some similar moves I've seen Hamilton make from pole.

97

After Hungary and Singapore Max is showing signs of brilliance. Maldonado brilliance.

98

Really?....
And you'r a F1 fan?
Come on.. grow up.

99

Back to the point I made in the previous thread, what was the Ferrari start line observer doing, out for pasta? A quick radio message "don't turn left, Kimi's there" and all would have been well.

100

"After Hungary and Singapore" ................ you're a bit late to that conclusion Sebee, many of us worked it out much sooner.

101

Jos has a history of showing his aggressive personality. In Jos' 8 years in F1 Jos had had 57 RET results, an incredible 54% for all the races he contested. He retired a WDC winning B194 6 out of 10 times he got to start it, and still that rookie year was his best ever WDC standing of 10th. No doubt his lack of contribution and RET loses Benetton the WCC that year.

Since Jos is Max's dad and mentor, I can absolutely see a scenario where Jos instructed Max to never back down in F1. Never lift. Never yield. This in an effort to build a reputation early and quickly in Formula 1 that you will race hard and go to the scene of the crash if necessary, as a strategy to not have other drives take you on. He has demonstrated this with Daniel in Hungary and Kimi here in Singapore this year.

The main issue with that is, that he's hitting people who have beat him fair and square. He doesn't have the intelligence yet to evaluate the situation instinctively at the 2017 car speeds and recognize that HE IS beatable, and HE HAS been beaten, as was clearly the case here in Singapore.

Kimi beat Max fair and square, and Max just hit him. No one points this out. Everyone is using Vettel as some distraction, when clearly that focus here should be Max/Kimi battle, and what Max does in that confrontation. He is beaten. He drives straight to kit Kimi, intentionally.

102

Pocket psychology with Sebee...
I thought I saw everything in your comments, but you seem to go to every length to get your message across, no matter the relevance.

The situation was far from being only in Max's hands - as everyone could see they were all converging, with very little time to react.

103

This picture shows that Kimi is not in a straight line and moving tot the right

104

This picture shows Max is going straight for Kimi's side pod.

105

PUshed to the right by a overly agressive VET.. But that's only a detail in your mind 😉

106

Wrong. Seb gives Max more room than Max gives Kimi.

107

And for those suggesting Verstappen would have been immediately pummeled from behind if he had slowed even a tad bit more to avoid the collision... Bottas is the only one anywhere close, and he is at least half a grid behind Verstappen at this point.

108

Sorry everyone, I don't know why the wrong photos and comments are being combined here. Just do your best to match them up.

109

This photo shows Kimi, just *after* Verstappen hits him and turns him (making it look like Kimi was trying to "sandwich" him, but this actually happened as a result of the collision).

It also shows Verstappen still had plenty of room to avoid the collision when he chose to run into Kimi. 100% Verstappen's fault.

110

Look at the trajectory of Kimi... yes.. obvious crash imminent.

111

Yes, that'll tend to happen when you go straight while Max is angling in on you.

112

You know Kimi is the one who is hitting Maxs wheel.. kimi is the one with lots of sace on the right side.
Why did Kimi hit Max.. was it a teamorder to take max out?

113

Nope, Max hits Kimi. And he cut across half of the width of the straight to do it. While Kimi drove straight ahead.

It was not Kimi's responsibility to move to his left. It ***WAS*** Max's responsibility not to steer into another car.

114

That pic is not after contact, Kimi's wheels are still on!

115

Why use arguments if you can manipulate a story?>

116

TimW: Try reading my previous post where I said "Sorry everyone, I don't know why the wrong photos and comments are being combined here. Just do your best to match them up." and my following post where I said "Sorry wrong photo. Here is the right one..."

117

Still photo's do not capture the momentum of the cars, which is paramount to the discussion. You cannot see how quickly Vettel is moving over, in the photo above.

We could run this same situation with anyone on these boards, with them in the Max car and a pro driver in the Vettel car, and explicitly tell them that the pro driver will swerve towards them but will not hit them, and I would guarantee that each time the person in the Max car would move left in avoidance. Your brain's innate sense of self-preservation would compel you to move to the left.

118

Likely that most of those same people would have braked before worrying about which way to turn.

119

KRB: Max had already moved over close to Kimi before well before Vettel got close to him. By choosing to eliminate all of the space next to Kimi, Max voluntarily gave away the margin that would have given him the time and space to remove himself from the ensuing situation.

120

Exactly! People are so busy looking at details of the impact, they miss the gap to Vettel.

Looks, let's be real about the situation and the facts:
1) Max lost the inside line to Kimi, he took it, it was Kimi's
2) Vettel was ahead of Max, and owned the choice of line ahead.
3) Max's only option was to lift and go into the turn P3, he lost a spot and, but could have re-grouped and took the fight back, he didn't.

He made a rookie mistake. His instincts were wrong. I like how some use Jos, the father let's remember as the impartial voice.

Jos should be proud of Max, not only has Max won a Grand Prix, which Jos never did. Perhaps retirements are genetic? Jos retired 57 Grand Prix in his 8 years in F1, 7 GP per year average. Young Max is carrying on the family stats well this year.

121

Not sure why you always refer to Jos when speaking about Max. It alsmost looks like spam in the topic.

122

Sebee the facts are this,
1, Seb gets a poor atart, and knows it.
2, instead of concentrating on staying ahead of his championship rival he decides to make an always risky move, and swerve across nearly the full width of the track to cover off Verstappen.
3, Kimi gets a great start and decides to try for the small gap between Max and the pit wall. The success of this move relies on Max moving right to prevent contact.
4, Max sees Seb coming and also sees that he has no intention of stopping the swerve, Kimi enters stage left like a missile travelling much faster than Max, his right rear hits Max's left front spinning him to the right, Seb is still completing his swerve and is hit by Raikkonen.
Kimi could have realised the gap wasn't quite big enough.
Seb could have stopped his swerve sooner, still covered Max, and not have been hit by Kimi.
Max's only method avoiding the accident would have been to move left to avoid Kimi, which probably would have resulted in contact with Seb.

123

1. Yeah, and Max only slightly better
2. Give or take half the track width in a very common move which normally allows the pole sitter to stay ahead of all championship drivers
3. Max had already moved to the right to create a huge gap at least a metre wider than the inside wheel of the line Kimi took (and JA states he had more than enough room on the outside to move further over)
4. You omitted that Max had already gone the metre plus back to the left and into Kimi
Seb had completed his swerve with his steering wheel pointed right prior to Kimi being barrelled into him by Max

124

But better still and getting more speed along the way. By turn 1 he would have passed VET ( as all f1 drivers would concur)]

125

1. Vettel got a bad start, but was enough to still be well ahead of Max. Max was not along side Vettel. Only the tip of Max's wing was at any point. Wing tip is NOT ENOUGH to claim the line or position. That's in the rules, isn't it?
2. Vettel at NO TIME loses the P1 spot, and at no time is anyone else close to taking away that spot, or is along side him to claim it, like for example Kimi, who definitely took the spot away from Max fair and square.
3. It's not a small gap Kimi goes for. It's a wide open gaping gap, and Max decided to shut it down, and take it away by hitting Kimi, is is now well and truly ahead of Max at time of contact. That spot is no longer Max's. Kimi took it - fair and square.
4. Seb has room, as you've seen over and over again. Plenty of room. We've gone through this. Max decided to hit Kimi, no other drives makes a decision to hit any other driver here. Only Max.

Vettel was just going from his outside line box to the inside line, via a direct path. A logical choice if his start was challenged, and it is his full right to do so. Especially since no one was along side him, and it is Max hitting Kimi that collects Vettel, not Vettel hitting anyone.

I told you already over and over before, Max is pretending that he was scared of very scary Vettel and this caused him to hit Kimi, but really he just saw Kimi about to fly by decided that he wasn't going to let Kimi take the position away from him fair and square and decided to cover him hard to the left and hit Kimi, and that caused the melee.

126

"Max decided to hit Kimi, no other drives makes a decision to hit any other driver here. Only Max."

I don't see how you can say that. And saying it over and over again doesn't make it any more true.

127

Funny how only about half of my recent comments - all very tempered and reasoned - are getting published. I would like to think you are above this sort of bias and abuse of your power of censorship.

128

Au contraire

The ones we cut out break the rules, are abusive to other posters and not the sort of comments we tolerate here

The rules are very clear. Observe them or have your comments moderated. Simple

129

Wrong. You have censored completely benign comments that were in no way offensive, nor did they "break any rules".

What you shouldn't "tolerate" is lying to your own readers.

"Simple"

130

Some examples of comments of yours we have deleted:

1. "What are you, 12?
Run off now, the grown ups are talking."

2. "They tend to f**late Lewis, so I guess that supports Sebee."

3. "Is that what your seeing-eye dog told you?"

You are entitled to your opinion - in this case that the Singapore start accident was 100% Verstappen's fault

We have cleared many comments that take that viewpoint so to talk of censorship is nonsense.

You are not entitled to abuse other posters of take a high-handed approach

If you want to lord it over others and be abusive start your own blog.

If you want to post here, be polite. End of discussion

133

You don't see how I can say that James? After we watched this thing frame by frame so many times? In High Def? 🙂

Here is how I can say that:

I am not an F1 driver. However, I am fully aware of the fact that the width of the F1 car side pods is narrower than the width of the wheels (picture for illustration). Therefore, even in my simple non-genius brain, I know that if I was to stand right by side pod as the car is rolling I would get hit by the rear tire, because it is wider than the side pod. That's a starting point, and I'd expect all F1 drivers to know this.

Max clearly goes toward Vettel, then sees Kimi and changes his mind and goes left to cover Kimi, hard. If you slow down the video frame by frame you can clearly see first that Max sees Kimi's front tire roll by him, so he has a reference for necessary width to be left, yet he continues to drive toward Kimi. You can see that Max's front left makes contact with Kimi's side pod. How can you see? Because you can see smoke appear from the friction of the spinning wheel of Max's RBR against Kimi's floor, which is the widest point. This is all before the inevitable rear wheel of Kimi's car makes an entrance. It wasn't going to disappear, in case that's what Max was expecting after the front wheel passed by and gave him a reference width.

Now, if you are an F1 driver, and you can see your wheel against the side pod of another car, I think we can accept that ignorance to the width of the tire behind cannot be pled here by Max. He knows Kimi is going faster, and he puts his front wheel into his side pod after the saw the necessary width with Kimi's front Max touches the side pod, and puts his wheel in the path of Kimi's rear tire. At that time, he decided to turn right. How cute?

The whole time, the needed room is absolutely left for him by Vettel on the right. Max doesn't have to do what he's doing and try to claim those extra inches from Kimi. He has room on the right to NOT hit Kimi. He also has the option of slightly lifting, after all, there is no doubt at this point that P2 is lost to Kimi and there is no way P1 can be gained with Vettel's line. You can see it. I know it's happening fast, but these are F1 drivers. They've been in these scenarios. When a car is where Kimi was, that's it - Max lost. And he certainly wasn't going to pass Vettel before turn 1. You can see that in the overhead.

So Max does hit Kimi's side pod. First. And he knows what's behind it. Kimi's rear wheel. We all know this, because we know that an F1 car does not look like an LMP1 car. Shouldn't we expect Max to know this too?

Max makes clear decisions in this scenario. And those decisions draw contact, cause the melee and result in 4 drivers out, and fans robbed of the significant potential entertainment that was in store.

134

Sebee, show me a pic of Max steering hard left.

135

I have to actually clarify something here in my explanation, because it is important. After Kimi's front wheel passes Max's front wheel, you can CLEARLY see Max apply left turn input into the steering wheel. TWICE! This even thought he's already going toward Kimi. The slight right correction he makes as Kimi's front wheel goes by is undone by this and he's driving toward Kimi's side pod again.

You can see it in the official F1 video of all angles at just before 50s marker.

136

So you are saying that after RAI his front wheel is passing VER. VER steers left to hit him in the sidepod? Not only once! but twice???

Yeah right!!

How many milliseconds are there between those two moments?? 0.1

Yeah right!

It's pretty obvious to see from everything you post here about VER that you have something against him.
That's all fine, but don't go looking for things that aren't there.

137

James Allen:

"Max decided to hit Kimi, no other drives makes a decision to hit any other driver here. Only Max." is a factual statement of the events. Prove it wrong if you have evidence to the contrary.

And, last I checked, repeating the truth doesn't make it any less true.

138

Making up of a fact does not make it true. There is n supporting evidence for your strange claim abouw VER. We do know VET was palnning to push VER of his line. And doing that he pushed him in Kimis line. That are facts you can see and observe.
Fantasy does not go with facts ..

139

Supporting evidence:

140

Now Max is where he was steering towards, in between Kimi's wheels and about to touch his side pod. This is the second left input point, just a few frames after 2/3. That's right, Max choose to steer left once again, unbelievably, knowing he's in no man's land. What will he do next? Heavens forbid don't lift Max...it's quite possible that he does exactly that.

Does it all get more pre-meditated than this? I don't think so.

141

Uh, if he lifts (which he did anyways) Kimi's rear right goes over Max's front left. With Vettel coming in hard from the right, that option is not available. If Vettel was just going straight, then Max would've moved to the right, and unlocked his wheels with Kimi.

It's important not to crash into other cars. It's also important to not put yourself in situations with a high probability that you could be crashed into.

142

Vettel made the rookie mistake. You know it too, which is why you're going overboard now defending and deflecting.

I'm glad at least that you've dropped the facade of not caring, as you were very bad at it.

Maybe Ferrari are in on the MMC too? 😉

143

I'm not invested anywhere KRB.

Vettel could have played it another way. Safer. But he charged. I'm not going to blame him for that. What Vettel didn't do is hit another driver. And Vettel was completely in his right to cover the inside. Not sure he was going to cover Kimi, but I'm quite confident the two of them would have made it out those the turns. But first, Max needed to be smart in the position he was in. He wasn't. Another DNF for Max. Another P2 for Daniel. What has Max proven? Nothing. What has Max lost? Plenty.

144

Sorry wrong photo. Here is the right one...

145

Serious questions to as abou this photo.

What position is Max in right there?

What position does Max have a prayer of gaining here?

146

Serious reply. It's a photo.
Look at video from VER's onboard at normal speed and you can see how fast RAI is going past VER. He did not even have time to react from the moment RAI went alongside.
You can also clearly see that if VER had not touched RAI, both Ferrari's would still have collided.

147

I know it's useless te reply because there is no reasoning with blind hate but i give it a go.
You can show all the still image's you want or play the clip frame by frame over and over but it means absolutely nothing.
Watch the start at NORMAL speed and tell us how much time they all have to react. You can hate on Verstappen but the only one you're trying to convince is youself.

148

"Get Real": Max could see both of the Ferrari's, and the situation didn't change for almost half the length of the straight. Vettel was angling over to cover, and Kimi was going straight. These are standard, textbook moves for the start of a race. Max has seen them before, and he saw them happening at Singapore with *plenty* of time and space to react properly. He failed to do so.

149

Clearly Max didn't ***have*** to hit Kimi at all.

And certainly not because of Vettel.

150

It was Kimi who hit Max, be hey.. only a detail 😉

151

In what alternate reality do you live eric?

I guess of you were to step in front of a moving bus on purpose, it would be the bus' fault in your reality?

152

The reality of experienced drivers and people with a lot of insight. Your the one creating a alternate reality, time and time again.
You even forgot to mention Jos in this post.. something wrong?

154

It's an optical illusion because the picture is cropped so tightly. Actually, Kimi is the only one going straight, and the other two cars are at a slight angle.

Kimi does angle right after Verstappen collides with his rear wheel.

155

Ah, when the images are nog covering the theory they are ""It's an optical illusion "".. Really, grow up!

156

Look at the video. Kimi only makes leftward adjustments. When he sees Max coming he makes a decision to go inches away from white line track limits and those wet overpainted yellow markers.

157

But your partner in crime just stated It's an optical illusion ""

158

The human brain perceives things in context. Absent other references, when two (of three) cars are at the same angle, you perceive them to be "going straight" and the other car to be at an angle. Even though the opposite is actually true.

159

Or, this picture is from just after the first impact

160

Vettel not even close?!

161

Still more than a car's width and Max has travelled forward and into Kimi since prioritising to going left over braking.

162

Moment of impact. Look at all the room Max had to avoid hitting Kimi:

163

look at kimi hitting MAX!

164

In the uncropped version of your pic, we can also look at the room Kimi had to avoid hitting Max..

165

TimW: The difference is that Kimi is ahead of Max and driving straight down the road, while Max is behind and *steering into* Kimi.

Kimi doesn't have to give up ground. Max *does* have to keep from deliberately steering into another car.

166

Jjredfish. Kimi is not ahead of Max, he is alongside. If he had used the space he had available to his legt, there would have been no contact. In all of this you are talking about tiny movements in line from Max as being a terrible thing, but a swerve across 75% of the track width from Seb is fine apparently...

167

You can't have it both ways Tim. Complaining about VET using the word "slightly" and now you are describing more than half a car's width as tiny and worse still, describing that staying well within the grid lines and including a couple of metres odd of car width as swerving three quarters of the way across the track.

168

Kimi is clearly "ahead" of Max in your photo. He has not completely "passed" him yet.

And, again, Kimi doesn't have to give up ground to Max.

Max *does* have to keep from deliberately steering into another car.

Max runs over Kimi without any help from Seb:

169

Nope, kimi just forgot his read is wider than his front.. old style driver.

170

Nope, Kimi fully understands that the maximum width of his car at the back - including the tires - is ***exactly the same*** as the maximum width of his car at the front.

Feel free to stop embarrassing yourself anytime.

171

Btw, the total car is wider than last year.. Kimi just forgot that.. and hit Max while having lots f space to the right to avoid any contact.

172

JUst live up to the last line. You are crating a alternate reality (C Sebee) and are believing your own fantasy.
Get real and grow up.

173

Firstly, I am no fan of finger boy. Importantly though, if you correlated the onboard from VET at this point, he begins to turn to the right and straighten his line which then allow the space for a car on the inside and is all he has to do. Only one driver could control what was about to unfold, being the unrelenting young bull.

174

Even during, and after, the impact, Vettel was still at least a meter away, and almost entirely in front of Verstappen.

Fangio used to be able to graze the same blade of grass, lap after lap. Verstappen can't even control is car within a meter for a couple of seconds???

175

""almost entirely in front""" so not in front 😉

176

Passing is not binary. It is exactly as I said.

177

you pass or you do not pass.. there is no way in between ( execpt in Kimis mind who decided to hit max)

178

A couple of seconds?? Haha

179

At most.

The rest of the time Verstappen had even *more* room and would only have had to control his car within two to six meters. A drunk and blind man could do that.

180

Just watch the replay from the cockpit of VER at normal speed. At what point in time did he have time to react? Vettel came across quiet aggressively and at the same time RAI came alongside carrying much more speed then both VET and VER.
Had RAI not been there at that moment nothing would have happened. But he was, hence its just a racing incident.
Even the biased Italian media agree that it was not VER his fault. As many more people, but still some people here think otherwise.

181

...he's done it before and got away with it.

'Past performance is no guarantee of future results'.

182

Indeed. Vettel steered into Hamilton for a wheelbang earlier this season. Known behaviour. Not punished

183

Seebee: "I'm now at 100% Verstappen fault"

Lol, You stopped at 100%! I'm more impressed by your maths than your judgement.
It's a bad day when things go against you, so I empathise with your frustration, much like Toto does with Arrivebene. But, when you're in a bad position and you just keep pushing it, well, you end up like Seb, bright red and miserable.
Enough from me, I must get on, I can't keep having fun all day

184

First, you should know that it is my feeling that Ferrari was never going to win this WDC. They are being toyed with. So before this season even started, I already know Vettel will not win the WDC. And it doesn't matter to me really. There is no package of M&Ms that arrives is Lewis wins nor case of beer if Vettel wins. I am past that, I watch for fair competition and tense battles.

And yes, I stopped at a 100%, because I'm not one of those people who say...hey, give it 110%!

You don't like my logic that it is the driver who hits someone who's first to blame vs. one who scares a driver into hitting someone else, fine. I told you, Vettel said Boo! and Max got startled and hit another driver.

Not only was Max not thinking about what was happening at the moment, Max wasn't thinking what was about to happen next. Where exactly was Max going to go into the left hander with Kimi already on his inside?

You can bundle up to Brundle, or you see what happened here: Young boy came to play with Men and got exposed for lack of race craft and cunningness and drove into another driver causing an accident. Even if he survived his silly closing of door on Kimi and contact he drew, where in the world was he going to go into the left hander?

185

What;s your real frustration?
A young boy delivering way more entertainment and race craft your favorite driver does?

186

Which ex-F1 driver can you bundle up to Sebee?

Here's a list of F1 drivers who have stated that Vettel was the primary instigator of the crash on Sunday:

Jacques Villeneuve (Sky Italia commentator and Seb booster)
David Coulthard (again, big Seb booster)
Mark Webber
Martin Brundle
Damon Hill
Jarno Trulli
Richard Doornbos
Niki Lauda
Karun Chandhok

Jon McEvoy also said that the vast majority of drivers in the paddock Sunday believed that Seb was the instigator.

Drivers know these situations better than anyone else.

Facts are that if Vettel had kept it straight from the start, that there would have been no collision. It was a totally unnecessary move, but it's Seb's default, and it's bit him in the bum hard this time. Usually Seb makes bad driving errors yet still benefits (thinking Brazil '12 & Baku '16 here) ... this is the first race I can recall in a long time where a bad error has hurt him.

187

Jacques Villeneuve?
David Coulthard?
Mark Webber?
Martin Brundle?
Damon Hill?
Jarno Trulli?
Richard Doornbos?
Karun Chandhok?
Jon McEvoy?

If it wasn't for Lauda, this combined lot has 1/2 the WDC of Vettel! What do they know about what it takes? Chandhok - no jokes KRB, when you put that name on the list coffee came out of my nose this morning.

I guess they come from some pixy land of unicorns and rainbow where hitting a driver counts for nothing? Or they are so busy and mesmerized by looking at Vettel in all the replays they forget to look at Max do the EXACT thing they accuse Vettel of doing, EXCEPT Max hits Kimi. Vettel hits NO ONE!

That is some twisted logic, to blame a driver for another driver's crash, when he clearly didn't need to crash and when he has tons of room not to crash.

Was Vettel agressive and did he go hard to defend his position? YES!
Was Vettel going for the win or nothing at that point? YES!
Was Vettel allowed to make a move like he did? YES!
Did Vettel hit anyone? NO!

Vettel's only mistake is thinking that Max can engage in close racing. Clearly the boy had a rush of blood to the head. Ricciardo said an accurate thing about Max...

“I do a lot of things with my driving style which is very nice to the car,” Ricciardo began.

“I actually talk to it a lot during the race. I massage it. I wouldn’t call it foreplay but it’s something like that and Max is young, he’s aggressive, he goes straight in!"

EXACTLY! Straight into Kimi that is.

188

If you think RIC was even 1% serious you are lost.
You do know he was referring to sex right?

189

Well, seeing as Vettel hasn't come out claiming that it was Max's fault, it's not his credibility at issue here. It's your credibility Sebee, and I'm afraid on this you have none, compared to the list of ex-drivers I mentioned. Each one of them would have countless hours of racing, and countless starts, under their belts. They know what is kosher, and what's not.

I believe Vettel's ability to race closely is in the spotlight after Sunday's start, not Max's.

190

Well, you know how it goes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I considered the expert's opinions, you can be sure. Simply, experts aren't explaining to me the fact that Max is driving straight toward Kimi, not because of Vettel, but because he is about to lose a spot.

And experts have not explained why when Max is next to Kimi he makes TWO leftward steering inputs when he clearly doesn't have to, and he knows where he will go if he will. In fact he makes the second left steering input after he's already in a place where Kimi's wheel will hit his. And still...plenty of room to the right of him.

191

Sebee, show us your list.

192

Ah, that's your real problem. He goes straght in and that;s something you can only dream of ( of your favorite driver of course 😉

193

Wait, is just had a thought. Are you that iraqi propoganda guy? 'No no there's no amricans here' while he's almost being run over by american tanks.

Dismissing that list of drivers because having less WDC's then Vettel means the opinion has no weight? Really... Are you that delusional?

So your opnion (that of some delusional internet keyboard warrior, who's never even been close to a racing car) has more weight then that of former F1 drivers.

Surely next you're gonna tell us that you're some hotshot racing driver who won multiple championchips in lower racing classes.

194

I dismiss the experts because they completely ignore key important facts.

First key fact they ignore is the one for which I'm attaching the photo. This is the point where Max decided to not chase Vettel and instead goes to his left to close on Kimi. Look at all that space to Vettel! How is this his fault? He doesn't go left because of Vettel, he goes to cover Kimi.

Second key fact is why the hell does Max make those two leftward inputs that cause contact, which are quite significant to get into Kimi's side pod and in way of his rear wheel? You can see he has room to the right, and you can see he has no prayer to regain P2 or get P1. What is he thinking going to lock wheels with Kimi, instead of lifting. That's the other picture I already posted above.

His ONLY logical choice with Vettel coming and Kimi on his left was to lift to not clip his wing, because that would have been the extent of his contact with Vettel at best, and fight on into the turns. Don't think drivers don't know how to make contact to achieve a result either. Notice how Max after making contact steers right away from Kimi - it's pathetic, and looks so premeditated.

What is Max doing turning left into Kimi when he's already on a line toward Kimi? Especially when he has a meter to Vettel.

You get experts to explain this to me, the fact that Max goes left because of Kimi and not Vettel, and more importantly WHY he drives into Kimi when he absolutely doesn't have to, and WHAT was he trying to gain at that point, I'll listen to the experts. I want those questions answered by an expert please.

Anyone?

That's why I believe Max's intent all along was to hinder Kimi at any cost to not lose the spot. He went for the contact and after tapping Kimi - for which Kimi has to correct (you can see onboard) he lifts Kimi's rear gets lifted, and Max steers right away from the crash. All the while, he has plenty of room to Vettel for this to not happen.

195

Not only was Max not thinking about what was happening at the moment, Max wasn't thinking what was about to happen next. Where exactly was Max going to go into the left hander with Kimi already on his inside?

This is what baffles me about the whole situation.

196
JerseyOffShoreRacing

Verstappen was panicking and was 'red-misting' against Vettel. Max had absolutely no idea about anything else than where Vettel was.

197

Hey Jersey,

Have you posted here before, or is this your first article you've posted on here? Is that Jersey the Crown dependency, or New Jersey, the 3rd U.S. state to join the Union?

198

That's why he changed direction to try an cover inside line when he saw in his mirrors that Kimi was rushing in?

199

And even after Max hit Kimi... Verstappen *knows* Kimi is sliding alongside him, ***why in the world*** does does he turn in front of that torpedo instead of pausing a bit to let it slide by so he could safely make the corner?

When the lights went out, so did young Max's brain.

200

The only brain fade i see is in the brains of the VER haters here..
Very strange theorys and even when the images seem to show otherwise the reply is "" optical illusion""
LOL.
Enough for today, i had my fun iyou.

201

I don't hate Max at all. He is obviously very talented, but this crash was 100% his fault.

202

Well, people who really have all the info: the stewards. Decided to let VET of the hook. They know he was the main cause for the accident adn Kimi next.. MV was no player in the red crash game. He was a victim.
So you are entitled to have a alternate reality, but it does not compute.

203

And, independent of the rest of the accident, it was *this* poor decision by Max - to deliberately turn in front of the sliding, wrecked, Kimi torpedo instead of pausing just a hair for it to go by in front of him - that put Alonso out of the race.

Alonso would have just cleared Kimi, but he couldn't clear Max being slammed by Kimi.

204

Vettel isn't the best in the wet and he would have lost anyway.
Max, who can drive in the wet, versus Lewis, would have been very entertaining though. Shame.

205

We'll never know, because Max decided to hit Kimi.

206

Did u see Silverstone 2015, where Vettel did identical laptimes with Lewis in the wet and pass two Williams? U have also forgotten Monza 2009, where he overtook Lewis with a Toro Rosso. Maybe you can recall for us the wet races during his dominant redbull years where Lewis came out on top, or there weren't wet races in those four years?

207

Exactly, Sebe lacks spatial awareness. It looks he is protected by Fia.

208

Seems that Webber agrees with this observation, given his published comments on the start malucka.

209

Agreed. Vettel has done that before on several occasions and this is the first time he's paid the price in such a way. It's reminiscent of his earlier years when people questioned his race craft. I don't think anybody questions it these days, but it's a reminder of why they did.

Everybody else's behaviour in the opening sequence is understandable:
- Max gets the run on Seb but then sees him trying to squeeze him to the left and moves back accordingly. He's in way too deep by that point to simply back out. What's more, he can't be looking at both Seb and Kimi at the same time. It's understandable to think that, knowing he's made a good start, his main focus should be on what's happening ahead and to the right. Kimi's presence is a surprise and not one he can do anything about.
- Kimi makes a great start and is on to be leading in the first corner. He sees Max going straight and slightly right and continues his forward push accordingly. He can't be expected to anticipate such a dramatic chop by Vettel to the left.
- Vettel has every right to not make life easier for Max but the fact that he goes left and continues to go left, plus the fact he's doing it way too early and unnaturally to be positioning himself for the corner, suggests his only intention is to block Max. His mirrors won't show him the rapidness of Kimi but, had he not sought to chop Max so brutally, the accident would have been avoided. But, as mentioned, he's done this before and got away with it. This time he paid for it and I'm sure he'll reconsider making the same move next time. But it was, on the whole, a racing incident.

Overall, it's hard to disagree with the FIA's statement. The fact Vettel ruined his own race and that of his teammate is probably punishment enough. Max'll feel differently, but that's racing

210

watch 2010 Singapore GP start

211

Significant difference being that it's dry, and Alonso gets a decent start.

212

Right this way Max.

No no, please, I insist.

Really, I wouldn't want to intimidate you.

It's OK, I've won 4 WDC and you've only won one race where both top cars crashed out and your team moved your team mate out of the way, you've earned it.

Seriously Max, go ahead, right this way, I don't care you started in F1 when it was a total slow show.

Look I don't care you've never seen a pole position, I yield to you!

Seriously, it doesn't matter that I won in the junior RBR team and you couldn't even podium, you are welcome to go ahead of me.

Who's that over there? That's my team mate Kimi, also a WDC. You go right ahead of him too.

213

Well this post says a lot about you.

214

Oh lord.. what a frustration drips of the keyboard in this posting.. i hope youý doing alright still?

215

Are you seriously implying that having a WDC gives one more right to claim a track position than not having a WDC?

216

There is no replacement for experience. Max lacks experience. Experience would have helped him read the situation better and make wiser choices. True in F1 and also, life.

217

So, what you'r trying to say is you need more experience to read situations properly?

218

Ah...ok
Because he has one races and titles in the past somebody who hasn't isn't allowed to try and win from him, right

219

No, his feeling of entitlement had made him crash into Kimi. And his team mate a few races ago. The boy is like Maldonado this year and only I see it?

220

I totally agree; indeed Seb is the new Maldonado...

221

By the way Maldonado has a Spanish Grand Prix win AND a pole to his name. 🙂

222

Got admit, you called this one right..

223

Why are you insulting Maldonado...?

224

Love your work Sebee. Totally agree!

225

Thanks. It's a daily distraction. Or an addiction. I'm not sure.

226

Definitly a addiction 😉

227

I cannot understand why this article forgot about the fourth guy to analyze, Alonso. This is clearly his fault to be where he should not be at T1. Everybody sensed his 6 extra tenths incoming from the back and decided it was better to collide and then taking him out in group at T1.

But the real guilt lies certainly on Honda (no matter what, nothing to analyze here). Again, another case of wrong place wrong time for a few engine BHP.

228

Agreed. He made the right move but was just too aggressive with it. No way for him to know that Kimi was there or the situation with Max....He was the catalyst but that's racing.

229

Did he make the right move, Kurik? Why did Vettel get so worked up about being overtaken by Verstappen? Vettel is trying to beat Hamilton in the WDC. Hamilton also had a better start than Vettel and sailed up the right hand side of the track, unopposed, while Vettel went left. Seems to me Vettel was so rattled by the wet race he forgot who his real opponent was.

230

Agreed. Rattled & Vettel, we have seen that before?

231

You just made me recall Button's awesome 2011 Canadian wet win and Vettel's spin under pressure on the last lap to lose to Button who came from last - twice. I would pay good money for Button's on-board feed of that race.

232

And near 7% are plain nuts. There's no way that Max or Kimi could be primarily or predominantly to blame.

233

KRB,

Let's go step by step to see where we diverge.

Step 1. Can we agree Max goes left at this point? Therefore, his main focus is closing the door to Kimi, not Vettel, who's oh so far away.

234

And? If Max stays to the right of Kimi, Kimi will take that space. Kimi wants to make his corner as open as possible, so he would take any space that he can. Max wants to force Kimi to brake earlier, to be able to make the corner, than he has to brake. Nothing wrong with any of that. If Seb didn't swerve over to join that battle, nothing would've happened between Kimi and Max.

235

@KRB
Don't be to hasty KRB... I put the whole thing down to a racing accident. But I've just been looking at all the "on boards". Kimi wasn't exactly driving in a straight line once he got beside max. He seemed to veer a little to the right aswell as Seb going to the left.
But it seems Max was playing on Ferrari"s minds for this start.
Racing accident with Vettel giving himself a steep hill to climb for the WDC.

By the way, Shed seven... fantastic band

Vettel🎤luck left me on the start line
And ruined my weekend🎼

236

Finally someone who saw as well the small move right from Kimi which became the spark of such drama for Ferrari.

237

That's nice.

Is Max drifting towards Kimi left into direct trajectory of impact making a slight correction before it is too late? Kimi's car is unsettled by initial contact.

And you hit first, we're looking at you first. Look at that picture above on where Vettel is and where Max is, Max car angle right at impact. Looks at Kimi, nice and straight.

Max done wrong! He knows it. J.Mass is right, Max hasn't proven himself at all yet and is out of his league. When PU F1 was easy, he was all rainbows and unicorns, picking up a lucky win. When F1 sped up, he's having a hard time to cope. Imagine he didn't have all that PU automation and engine modes?

238

Btw, Kimi could have breaked after the impact.. Why did he choose to t bone VER?

239

Wasn't that much braking equipment left to break, let alone to brake with. Maybe VER being the one that still had brakes and steering could have eventually put them to good use to at least avoid their second collision.

Better still, instead of putting ridiculous images on twitter, his father could show him footage of his teammate and HUL that would show him a better way to react and then be in second place or third place, rather than his far too common walk back to the pits.

Max still has plenty of time on his side, but considering his extremely high level of raw talent and with some fifty odd F1 starts to date, he has not improved to anywhere near the driver that I and most likely many others expected.

240

Why don't you ask people at RB and RIC what they think of VER this season. I bet you will be surprised.

241

There were 3 wheels left.. and you do not really thnk a F1 looses its braking capacity as a result of losing one wheel?
Braking was a option.. kimi decided not to brake.

242

Kimi's car rotated due to the impact from Max. After it exceeded the maximum slip angle of the tires, there was no traction.

Braking would exacerbate the situation as it would keep Kimi's already sliding tires from rolling, which would prevent them from regaining traction if they ever did get back below the maximum slip angle.

244

Mass never proved himself either so why would he be an authority?

And of course you're looking at him first. You were looking at him in advance, you would be looking at him first if he was in either Kimi or Seb's place. There is no other way than it being Max's fault in any given situatiion. It's because that's what you want to see.
To think you can take one frame from what happened and use that as a proof shows your simplistic view on this.

And your assesment that he has trouble keeping up is just as ludicrous. Qualifying is proof of that. Don't tell me you're one of those noknow's who thinks his driving is also the cause of his reliability issues, the main reason for him not being fourth or so in the championship?

You are nothing but a blind fanboy / max hater thinking you know anything while in fact you have absolutely no clue.

245

Sebee you are 100% correct it is 100% MAX fault he started to close the door to Kimi like he always does...... watch the link i will give to see the restart he started to close the door far before than vettel.

246

It's funny that 75% call Vettel fault because Martin Brundle said so.

Max is the one who hits Kimi. That decision is in his hands, and he does it. He goes left to cover Kimi, not to run away from Vettel. Instead of letting Vettel be the one to initiate contact, Max chooses to do so.

I'm willing to say that Vettel did say Boo! to scare young Max into a mistake, but that's racing. We also don't know if Vettel was going to make contact, because we never got he chance. Max decided to do it first, which is why it is 100% his fault.

Finally, agreed. Kimi is 100% innocent. He did absolutely nothing wrong. He was right to avoid the left side painted wet surface too under hard acceleration. There was no room for Kimi on his left like James claims. And it is Max on a leftward trajectory that causes the impact and it is Max who puts his wheel into Kimi's side pod and in the path of Kimi's faster moving car. taking off his rear.

Bottom line: Experienced drivers made young guy blink. Their experienced instincts better and cleaner. Max got intimidated into a crash. In Formula 1 racing, I certainly don't believe intimidation is a punishable offence. However, crashing into someone absolutely is.

100% Max fault.

247

Sebee you are being stupid -no way as Max to blame for incident . He move across because he was being squeezed. If it was 100% Max's fault he would have been given a penalty -please understand that. James I think you need to watch some of the comments of some my fellow posters . I am all fine with posters giving there opinion but there seems to be a deliberate attempt by some posters to denigrate the likes of Verstappen as person and driver . More importantly anyone who makes out to insult drivers whether it be due to their driving, personality or both are not the kind of people I want to see posting . here. I'll leave that last bit with you James as feedback from me.

248

Someone calls me stupid and Mod won't post my reply? 🙂

249

@ Sebee...What is driving all this is literally, 'blood lust' ,to condemn Vettel. All the anti's must be feeling the heat when they all rushed to judgment before the vedict was in and they just can't accept that they are wrong. It was a racing incident. Talk about 'egg on face'!! hahaha It has now become apparent that Verstappen was not the 'soo innicent' party as the media would have us believe. The facts are, Vettel didn't hit anyone, Verstappen hit Kimi and they all retired as a result of the total ensuing melee.

250

Lol that is funny: he got scared.? As in previous races, Max will not yield ( Brazil comes to mind, Hamilton tried overtake in Japan 2016, etc). It shows more that Vettel is holding grudges against Verstappen, which already started from 2016. Max has nothing to lose while Vettel does (Championship). When you got nothing to lose, you are not scared ( which applies to everyday situations and sport moments). Vettel got scared due to his bad start, and wanted to block Verstappen, It would have worked, only Kimi had a dynamite start, which resulted in a sandwich. Vettel gambled and paid the price

251

If Max wasn't scared of Vettel, then why was he running away?

Oh, he wasn't!

He was covering Kimi on the left to the point where he crashes into Kimi.

252

If it's %100 max's fault then why did Vettel apologised so profusely and sincerely on the radio. In the past he had open laid the blame at other drivers feet but not this time. Sebee can you please explain this FACT to me? You seem to be the fact expert around here.

253

I imagine because he is sorry about the position the team ended up in.

Anyway, he had no chance. Lewis was in P2 when he spun out of the lead. He was going to be overhauled by Lewis in the Mercedes, no doubts.

254

""I imagine because "" is your storyline all the way 😉

255

That doesn't answer my question.
Why did Vettel apologise instead it blaming max like Kimi like h has done in the past? Also if you haven't already watched the footage from onboard with mac highly recommend it. You'll be bame to see just how fast it all happens for him.

256

Oh please stop with the "Max hits Kimi first, so it's his fault" rubbish! For a start that's nonsense - rules of the road and the racetrack are not the same. Second, if you watch again, you'll see that Max DOES NOT hit Kimi first! In fact, Kimi is moving across, their wheels interlock and because Kimi is actually overtaking Max, it's the Ferrari's right-rear wheel that hits Max's left-front. Just as James describes in the article!

257

Regardless of nationality, it is really hard to believe that anyone could write the above the best part of two days post race. Alllllllll the evidence shows that Max turned left into a straight moving Kimi. The photo a split second affffter their impact is no straw to clutch onto.

258

A photo is only one image form a series of images.. Reality is nog build upon parts of the true story but on the whole story. Look at the imgaes in real time and see what happened. Vet moved to VER, Kimi collided with the fornt of VER with his rear and that's it.

259

Alllllll the evidence? I'm sorry, but still photo's are not the way to decide on this. You're asking for drivers to have extrahuman reflexes. This reminds me of the 2012 Belgian GP, when someone on here plaintively asked why Hamilton couldn't have pulled out of it, even though he was wheel locked at the time.

Fact remains if Seb just drives straight, then nothing happens. He's had a bad start, and it's in the wet. Doing his cut over move was extremely risky and ill advised.

260

Yes all the evidence, not just still shots and further to your previous race thread reply, there is nothing that I have seen to apportion contact blame to Vettel. Actually, the more that I see, the more that I notice that Max turned right immmediately and then back to the left almost instantaneously to Seb starting to move left.

It may well be that he was trying to cover off the big gap he opened for Kimi and his second movement had nothing to do with Seb at all. Of course if Seb stays on the right things unfold differently, but how much difference and particularly with Max in the mix, is anyone's guess.

261

We'll agree to disagree then. No harm in that.

262

Yeah, that happens because Max drives right into Kimi. Obviously, with the path Max took he was going to drive into Kimi. Perhaps Max should watch "Back to the Future" - two things cannot exist at the same time in the same place.

Karma is incredible. How funny that after Max drives into Kimi effectively taking him out, Kimi collects Max and ensures he pays his dues for crashing into Kimi?

263

No - take your blinkers off.
Kimi is heading towards Max's line more than the other way round.
Max does momentarily twitch left slightly in reaction to Vettel heading even more sharply towards his line from the other side, but he then checks his change when he sees Kimi.
It's been suggested by some that at this moment Max perhaps lifts off a bit, which would explain why it is Kimi's wheel that hits Max's as their wheels are interlocked.
So Max didn't "take a path" - he just twitched a bit. But Vettel and Kimi both cut across the track. Kimi is not completely blameless - he could have taken a straighter line and not ended up that close to Max.

264

i request you to please chk the link i have given above, max movement to left was happened before Vettel moved to his left to close the door. Its shameful no one considering it that MAX had a poor start to, i glad i am srry to say but m happy that kimi took him out of the race.

265

In that footage, when you play it at .5 speed, you can see once Kimi's front wheel passed Max, Max steers to the right, away from Kimi. But since Seb is still moving to the left, and Kimi more to the right, he got sandwiched between Seb and Kimi.

266

Twitched, lol. See previous reply. Maybe Kimi should have just stopped and given him the place.

267

I think it's time you take out the protractor and measure some angles Gwynston. 🙂

268

Yes, well I think we're just nitpicking and perhaps we'll have agree to disagree. 🙂
But I put this to you: If Vettel and Vertappen's cars were switched but precisely the same thing happened, I bet that you would come to a different conclusion as to who was at fault. 😉

270

No, I wouldn't. It would have been very interesting to see how Vettel would have drove this if he was dropped into Max's car as Max is driving toward hitting Kimi.

I'm not nitpicking Gwynston. I gather you've watched the video by now?

Here, look at it again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

Be sure to notice Max's car angle, how he's heading straight for Kimi. How he hits Kimi. How he already lost P2 before he hits Kimi. How he can't handle it. How he has us believe that the only choice at that point before he hits Kimi was to keep his foot on the accelerator, instead of lifting for a blink and going into the turn in P3 and taking another shot at it shortly.

The boy's instincts where completely wrong - 100% wrong.
You know what the difference between Max and Vettel here is?
Max already lost position when he hit Kimi. Vettel never lost P1 to Max, and wasn't going to lose it. Max was never even close to being along side Vettel. Max didn't have the acceleration to move past Vettel, like Kimi had to already move past Max when Max hit him, being way behind.

271

https://youtu.be/U2T1_VrTcoo?t=48s
Play that at .5 or .25 speed and repeat your statement again....

272

Kimi moved right? Seriously? The contact is initiated solely and totally by Max when he moves back left. Look I was the first to blame Vettel but after watching this over and over from every angle possible, Max is the one doing most of the moving. I am still willing to call it a racing incident but claiming Max is totally innocent in this is ridiculous.

273

What catches my eye is that most biased 'fans' who blame Verstappen for the incident, often also put down Verstappen as a person ... caaling him names, refering to his age and even comment his looks.

If yu don;t like the guy, just settle with 'I don't like the guy'.
It all needs a bit of objectivity to figure out who did what.

In fact we are rolling over each other to figure out who did move an inch before the other moved an inch.

Slow mo footage, frame by frame shows us they all did...an inch, while Vettel moved meters. Verstappen slowed down is was caused them touching... if he wouldn't have he would have run into Vettel regardless... all hell would have broke loose than.

Kimi was responsable for his move, as he was overtaking, Vettel was responsable for his cut off... at Singapore in the wet there just it the best timing for hero's.

274

Can you name how many times & how many drivers that have complained about Max's driving? Do you think they were all whining or are stupid? And yes his age has something to do with it because he's showing immaturity most of the times, its not a slant

275

Can you name how many times & how many drivers that have complained about Ayrton/Michaels/Lewis/Max's driving? Do you think they were all whining or are stupid?
Max is a more mature driver than a lot of other so called experienced drivers on the grid. Would you consider Seb a mature driver despite his tantrums? Or Grosjean?

276

F1 is no personality contest... the biggest starts always have been the ones who get the attention... the good and the bad.

I am a F1 fan, but I don't spent much time putting a specific driver down, there are really a lot of people spending much time on a driver they apparenthly don't like that much.

Drivers complaining about Max...? I thinks it's more a fan thing.
The general opinion about Singapore doesn't exactly put the blame on Verstappen.

Like a journalist wrote somewhere... Vettel respects Hamilton and fears Verstappen... and that's probably very true.

277

That is to be expected seeing that HAM doesn't regularly try to bash and barge his way through, particularly on an opening lap. Even with Max as your favourite, surely you must think that he has missed out on many points this year due to his own actions?

278

His own actions...? well try and be objective about it seems a bit hard for some.

Bahrain > brake failure at P4
Spain > crahed out at P3 by Bottas who hit Raikkonen, who hit Verstappen
Canada > battery failure at P2
Azerbeidzjan > engine problem at P6
Austrian > crashed out at P6 by Kvyat who hit Alonso, who hit Verstappen
Belgium > software failure at P5
Singapore > crashed out by Vettel squeezing in at P2

There are some people who feel Verstappen is to hard on the car and causes his own DNF's... all the while Ricciardo used more engine components and took more grid penalties... his incidents often happende in FP and Quali.

In Spain Bottas admitted he overshot the corner and apologized to the other drivers.

In Austria Kvyat was to blame... and Kvyat isn't the most populair driver on the grid, so fans didn't discuss about that.

In Singapore the general opinion is that Vettel was way to radical...now that the radio messages have been made public we hear Vettel talking to his engineers.... emotianally apologising for the crash he caused.

Max was to blame for the incident in Hungary, that has cost him a possible P4. In Monza Max was ambitious, but not overly, it was a raceincident primarily caused by Massa who overshot the corner.

Every driver makes mistakes, every driver is involved in incidents.
Max year is pretty awefull... but he's never been the cause of any of his DNF's.

279

Wrong.

280

you're calling it right Sebee. saying boo is the stock-and-trade of experienced drivers! rattles the young'uns!

281

Clark or Hill or brabham or moss or Hawthorne or collins or Brooks or fittipaldi or stewart or Peterson or rindt or a lot of others did not need to do the swerving in front of their rivals at the start. For one thing it could be fatal. Todays drivers have no fear it seems and the Safety conscious FIA are OK with this which I find very strange.

282

Wait till all these angels have a Halo!

Then you'll see respect.

283

Max is looking at Vettel swerving towards him. He cannot look both right and left at the same time. Reasonably, he is paying utmost attention to the biggest threat to him, which was Vettel coming towards him. In that time, Kimi has moved slightly right towards Verstappen.

Sebee, imagine you're on Hwy 400 by the 401, i.e. a 6-lane highway. You're in the 2nd lane from the left, with a car beside you that is crowding you, right on the lane separator line. Over to your right, there's a car in the 2nd most right lane, that then swerves towards you, crossing through 2 lanes in the space of 100 metres. Where would your attention be? So now they're still coming over at the same trajectory, into your lane, and you react by moving left ... you're telling me that's not a reasonable reaction as a driver to make?!? The law will not blame you for moving left, because a) you were maintaining a proper lookout, and b) you were taking reasonable action in avoidance. Your "first contact" made up rule is only slightly less ridiculous than your suggestion to call the 2008 Singapore GP on lap 12.

I wouldn't normally use Jos Verstappen as a source, but when someone's right, they're right:

https://twitter.com/MaVic009/status/909497457880399872

https://twitter.com/f1writers/status/909415854147764224

I hope your explanation has provided you some comfort to get you past the initial shock of what happened. Perhaps you might revisit it in the days ahead.

284

Come on KRB, I don't like finger boy either, but you are normally better than this and they were very poor examples to even try and justify your, and for that matter, the case from Max senior.

The photo is post impact and the still frame of the video shows VER has moved further over than VET, which can probably only be to apply pressure the other way as he has nobody nor greasy wet rubber in front to avoid.

285

It's not because I don't like him ... I just call it like I see it. The majority of ex-drivers agree with me. I wonder why?

286

Just learned something about Jos. Jos, in his short 8 years in F1 has RET as a result 57 times. It's bloody hard to find an actual result for him!

Jos' best season is his first with 10th, where he retired the championship winning car a record 6 times! Out of 10 races he raced. Ouch.

Perhaps retirement luck is genetic? Jos had a 7 per season average over his carrier, Max is currently at 5 per season average, but working on improving to his dad's level this year. 🙂

287

Still, the picture in Jos's Twitter, says more than 10,000 of your words...
Has nothing to do with his career (I suggest you watch the Singapore 2003 race to get a proper impression of Jos's driving)
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2017/9/FULL_RACE__The_2001_Malaysia_Grand_Prix.html

Jos' career was sort of like Max' current season; cars that were lacking power and/or not reliable....

288

Learned about jos... you do know by now it's his son Max that's doining the driving.. i guess not 😉

289

Conclusive - unless you work for the FIA !

290

I just looked at your "evidence". It's weak.

Max goes left to cover Kimi. Harder than Vettel, and causes contact.

Jos the Papa is taking a frame out of a fluid situation, and that frame actually shows Max is a peculiar position already, so I don't know what he's trying to show there. This from is also AFTER Max realizes he's driving straight into the scene of the crash and corrects right, as you can see in the video.

So, I don't care about Jos' Arrows (Ha!) diagram. It's weak, and only proves that Max is WAAAAY out of position. The question you need to ask is "How did Max's wheel ended up in Kimi's side pod?" And the answer is, Max drove it there, directly. A --> B.

Vettel actually has a lot of space there in that photo. Oh sure, he could have clipped Max's wing, but he DIDN'T. He could have spun himself out, but he DIDN'T. What did happen is Max drove directly toward Kimi's side to cover him, thus causing contact.

Yeah, leave it to Jos to be objective in this situation. He has no interest in this, only his son's carrier, his son being compared to Maldonado, his VIP access to the paddock.

291

Jos is trying to point out the direction the cars were heading. The lines were drawn from centre of the rear wing to the centre of the nose of the cars.
https://twitter.com/f1writers/status/909415854147764224

292

So....

Vettel is supposed to see the two cars In the blind spot of his rear view, but Max who has clear view of both ahead is OK to NOT see them and act accordingly?

Look at that photo above of where Vettel is and where Max is, Max has tons of room when he hits Kimi. Max is not picking his fight with Vettel at this point. Max decided to cover Kimi hard, and hits him.

KRB, there is no need to explain this. Max screwed up and hit Kimi, all on his own, maybe with a little intimidation, bit he hits Kimi. Plenty of room to his right not to hit Kimi too and claim his space, but he hots Kimi. By then he already clearly lost the inside line into the left hander and should have known it. But instead he continued into Kimi.

293

KRB, there is no need to explain this.

If that's so, why are you flooding this article with your comments?

Jos' tweets are weak? I think they show perfectly what was going on. It was a big movement from Seb. It was as though Seb wanted contact. Maybe subconsciously he wanted to send out the message that he and Max couldn't cohabitate as teammates, so gave a preview of what could be expected? It was definitely a very, very odd start sequence.

294

Vettel is supposed to have a brain!

295

I initially thought it was 100% on Vettel, but I was wrong, it was only 92.8% Vettel's fault and 7. 2% Kimi's for moving to the right just before contact.
The only mistake Max made was opening the door enough for Kimi to smash his way through it.