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Insight: Where is it all going for Carlos Sainz in Formula 1?
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Posted By: James Allen  |  04 Aug 2017   |  12:19 pm GMT  |  189 comments

“If one answer, said in the heat of the moment, is spinning out of control, then that is modern times”

Carlos Sainz is still living with the consequences of his statement that it is ‘unlikely’ that he will stay at Toro Rosso for a fourth season in 2018, said in Austria last month.

Today, speaking to F1.com he has said that “My one and only ambition is to be a Red Bull driver in the future.”

Well he had to say that, one could argue.

Because in the interim there has been robust defensiveness from Helmut Marko and a tough line from Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner that, “We’ve exercised his option as well, so he’s under contract. He’ll be in a Toro Rosso again next year.

“He only got an opportunity in F1 because of Red Bull investing in him in the junior years, and it’s a little disingenuous to be making comments like that. Without Red Bull he wouldn’t be sitting in an F1 car.”

However there was also the suggestion from Austrian colleagues during the Silverstone GP weekend that Sainz has been told by Red Bull’s Helmut Marko that he is free to leave if he pays back the money it cost Red Bull to bring him to F1.

If that means what they spent on him in junior categories then it’s in the €4 to 5m range. Amortised over a three year contract with another team, like Renault, that would be €1.5m a year off the top of his salary, which would make quite a dent in the salary of a driver on that level.

Sainz says today in F1.com that “(it wasn’t nice) Helmut Marko and Christian Horner going against me, but sometimes it happens in F1.” It is possible to come back from a moment like this.

Sainz says he has eyes only for Red Bull, but this is all about hedging bets.

On Red Bull’s side they are hedging their bets against either Daniel Ricciardo or Max Verstappen moving on in 2019. Neither is able to move until the end of 2018 at the earliest. And if it were Ricciardo who left, then Red Bull would have a problem as the Sainz/Verstappen pairing was toxic at Toro Rosso and was instrumental in Verstappen being promoted to Red Bull, along with interest in Verstappen from Ferrari and also the catastrophic start crash in Sochi of Daniil Kvyat.

The chemistry between the Dads was part of the problem at the time and although Carlos Sr is still seen at almost every event, Verstappen Sr is not such a frequent visitor, even if his presence is still felt.

We’ve been around this block before. Sainz had an opportunity of a Renault drive last autumn, but it was blocked by Marko taking up the option. Sainz, stuck in a holding pattern could be forgiven for feeling that his career isn’t progressing as he had hoped. New blood is coming in and there are some quick young drivers like Ocon, Leclerc, Norris lining up to fill seats in the coming years. Sainz needs to progress, much as Sergio Perez needs to progress now that he is a more complete driver than in his ill fated McLaren year.

Sainz feels he has done enough to earn a faster car and a crack at podiums, but instead he’s stuck in the waiting room. This year he has driven with a rage, which may be informed by that sense of being on hold and which has worked for him on some occasions very well. It’s also led him into some difficult moments.

Red Bull has to cover it’s bases and also think to the future. It’s had a great run in developing young drivers and bringing them on to win races without having had to pay them huge salaries on the way. But Kvyat appears to have plateaued and the pipeline of next generation drivers doesn’t look too great now.

It costs $30m a year to hire Lewis Hamilton and Vettel now commands the same, but he was on a fraction of that when he was winning his four world titles with Red Bull.

And Ricciardo and Verstappen, while not poor, are not paid close to what Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel get. Yet they are top line F1 drivers, who would win races and championships if the car was a bit faster.

What do you think? What should Sainz do next? Leave your comment in the section below

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189 comments

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1
Andrew Halliday

There's not really a lot of options available for Sainz, especially with the possibility of Kubica or Alonso at Renault. It almost seems that being part of the Red Bull program is a curse. We've seen previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Bourdais, Alguesuari etc) discarded and now Sainz is effectively stuck at the team. Other than Vettel, have any other drivers overly benefitted from the program?

2
Richard Mortimer

Andrew, I think Verstappen and Ricciardo have benefited a great deal. Not as much as Vettel, as the car is not as competitive as then. I feel sorry for Sainz. He's not looked so good this year with his 'rage!' Bad on Red Bull if he leaves... and, I can't see how they can ask for any money back. That's the chance you take. McLaren didn't ask for money back from Hamilton when he went to Mercedes. That's ridiculous.
Vergne was one that got away from RB, even though he was as fast as Ricciardo. They should be more willing to let drivers develop at other teams. The solution: Take up an option on Sainz for 2019, and try to place him at a top team like McLaren.

3

Agreed, the problem is the turnover of drivers isn't fast enough in the big Red Bull team for the number of drivers coming through, so a log jam is created. There have only been 5 Red Bull drivers since 2009 and 6 in the last 11 seasons, those being DC, Webber, Vettel, Ricciardo, Kvyat and Verstappen. With the exception of Kvyat all of those drivers were with the team for a long time.

Some excellent drivers have slipped through and fallen by the wayside, invariably out of F1 altogether. JEV being probably the most shabbily treated of them all, a season against Ricciardo with not much between them and DR gets promoted. A year against Kvyat, who he outscores but Kvyat is the one who gets promoted, JEV out of F1! I hope the same doesn't happen to Sainz he's a quick and talented guy, hopefully he won't join the very long list of good drivers who have never managed to get a break.

4

@ Darren...In relation to JEV the Red Bull team had all the data upon which to make their decisions, something that the fans never get to see. That is why they do what they do. IIRC Ricciardo, in the tests immediately post the Abu Dhabi final in 2013 went out and drove faster laps than Vettel who won the race!!! I'm reasonably sure that it is performances like this, amongst other performances, that convinced the team to give Ricciardo the drive in preference to JEV.

5
Racing driver 1

Verstappen and Ricciardo have benefitted from the program. They are in a red bull seat, which is better than a works Renault drive. Plus if Red Bull decided to drop them tomorrow, a lot of teams would be casting their fishing lines in hopes of a bite.

6

don't forget jean eric vergne, who was pretty much at par with ricciardo when at toro rosso, one of the bigger 'what ifs' of the last decade...

7

The races were finer because there were times when STR stuffed up Ricciardo's strategy or Ricciardo qualified the car higher than it should be and JEV vice versa. So when the race normalised, the two converged closer to the true performance of the car but Ricciardo was still the better racer other than a few races in the year. Especially in the second half of the season.

I don't doubt JEV is a decent and he was brilliant in mixed/wet conditions but RIC was always the better and faster driver. RBR have all the data on the two and if JEV was anywhere near Ricciardo at all, they would have given him a shot as well at the Silverstone test for the RBR seat.

You also look at the dry running H2H points and Ricciardo absolutely smashes JEV in points. He had almost 5 race point finishes in a row while JEV was racing with the Caterhams. Kept both Schumi and Alonso at bay in faster cars in Japan and India and when the pressure was on for the RBR seat Ricciardo stepped up while JEV did the opposite and complained about bad luck.

Also you look at the qualifying record between the two as mentioned above, JEV had the worse qualifying head-to-head out of all the team-mates on the grid AND also the largest average gap which many people didn't notice or realize. As a top team, why would you hire a driver who is consistently behind and also further behind?

8

I wouldn't exactly call being outqualified 30-7 "at par"....the main reason their points tallies were similar was lack of reliability and other things out of the drivers' control. Ricciardo did some stunning things even in that version of the Torro Rosso, which was the NINTH best team (in 2012), scoring 3x less points than the 8th best team, and he still managed to qualify 6th at Bahrain (only 0.5 seconds behind pole - sounds a lot in F1 but not a lot considering how fast the Red Bull was in Vettel's hands). I can't remember Vergne doing anything remotely that impressive. In Vergne's defense, Ricc had half a season more experience at that early stage, but Vergne's quali record didn't improve in his second season. He was a good driver, but Ricc was on another level.

9

What about Canada-2013 or Malaysia-2012?

10

Agreed Harv, RIC was the better qualifier and racer -but the race margin was much finer. IMO JEV is a better racer than a lot of the field...I put him at the same level as the Hulk.
That's the problem with the RB/TR program...one drivers success almost means that by default the other is discarded due to the comparisons.
RB know this and won't allow their discarded driver be released to the rest of the field. It's not good for the brand to have a discard beating their chosen one driving for a different team.
Even though the car wasn't really up to scratch, i would have loved Webber to have accepted the Ferrari drive at the end of his career, just to upset the apple cart a bit.

11

@ LKFE...likewise, i was extremely disappointed that Webber chose not to take up the Ferrari offer. For me it would've been [ possibly ] his final chance to give Marko/Horner a blast from outside the tent. Sadly he didn't do it. By then he'd made the decision to retire and in his mind he found it difficult to have to virtually start all over again in a new team.

12

On your question regarding whether any other drivers have overly benefitted from the program: doesn't Ricciardo or Verstappen come to mind?

13

Verstappen wasn't in the program. He did one year f3, then he was picked up and contracted at toro rosso. It's different.

14
Andrew Halliday

They are both driving for Red Bull Racing however I can't really see any additional benefits. Vettel benefitted from being brought through the system into a title winning car and treated like a Number 1 driver.

15

I agree we here about this amazing red bull junior program and yes Vettel is those star man from that. And yes Verstapen is an outstanding driver and talent but will he win a championship with Red Bull? And yes when you look at the history many many drivers have been dropper and discarded, formula E seems to have a few of them

16

You're right. In terms of hitting the bigtime, only Vettel has done that from the RB junior program. Max will eventually get that big money offer from another team, and Ricciardo might as well. Bottas and Raikkonen earn more than Ricciardo, but that is just about the team they're with rather than recent results. Hell, Massa earns close to them still!

17

Actually, Ricciardo (11 million euro) has a better salary than Bottas (6 million) and Raikkonen (8 million) according to Business Book GP: http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/05/f1-stipendi-2017-dei-piloti/

In the case of Kimi, he agreed to lower his salary in order to renew his contract last year, that's why the figure doesn't seem so impressive 😉

18

Hamilton earns almost as much per hour as Stroll does per year!

19

In net terms Stroll actually pays, not earns.

20

Not sure Stroll needs it...

21

Difficult to know exactly of course, but other sources quote Ricciardo behind both Bottas and Raikkonen:

http://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/13/formula-1-driver-salaries-for-2017/

http://www.totalsportek.com/f1/formula-1-driver-salaries/

22

I refuse to believe that Jo Palmer is being paid.

23

why not? he's doing a job for renault.

24

I can't think of a driver doing a worse job for their team - him and DK at Torro Rosso are in a tie. There are much better drivers available out there than and available than Palmer, which makes it difficult for me to believe that he's actually being paid a salary by Renault, and not the other way round.

25

Max Verstappen ? heard of the guy ?

26
Andrew Halliday

Verstappen wasn't really part of the Red Bull young driver program. He and Jos approached Red Bull for an F1 seat and he was signed to Toro Rosso. But he hadn't followed the path through the ranks like the other junior drivers had.

27

Will be lucky to stay with Toro Rosso

28

I have to agree! The real market revolves around VET who I think will stay put, and that means RAI too. This locks down most top seats for another year. Let's suppose:

Mercedes
HAM
BOT

Ferrari
VET
RAI

Red Bull
RIC
VES

Force India
PER
OCO

Williams
STR
WEH

Toro Rosso
SAI
Gassly

Renault
HUL
KUB

Haas
GRO
MAG

Sauber
LeClerc
ERI

McLaren
ALO
VAN

Given KUB would drive for the love of it and ALO hasn't got anywhere else to go that would be better, SAI stays put...

29

If Ferrari will use Sauber as #2 team forget about ERI sponsors or not it will be LEC GIO running ... he didn't bring a point so far. Sainz is fast but it takes more than fast to stay in F1. Don't see him going far up the ladder.

30

Well yes; if Ferrari are able to exert that sort of influence then GIO becomes an obvious and probably better choice.

31
Ricciardo Aficionado

Stroll/Wehrlein??
Don't they want some experience at Williams?

Still, the longer I think about it, I can't imagine anyone else going there if Massa leaves.
Williams used to be an aspirational team for drivers. But I think Mark Webber killed that perception when he chose them over Renault. (and bombed)
I can't imagine any real talent looking to drive a Williams next year. Sauber (Werhlein) is about the only team anyone would want to come from. Everyone else would stay put.
Williams should look outside the pool for some experience if that's what they want.
Or go with Lando Norris and Stroll.
Gotta keep that Merc deal sweet though... I don't know why, it hasn't done them any favours since 2014. If I was Claire Williams I'd chase Kubica and a Renault engine or Kobayashi and a Honda deal.

32

kobayashi yes, hes still got it.

33

Mark....
...you chose...
..poorly...

34

Its a Mercedes call really. Toto has said that's he's looking at his driver line up this summer. If one assumes that Daimler will block any move to secure Alonso and that Hamilton and Vettel are interchangeable, then the choice then becomes Bottas versus Ocon in the other car and my hunch is that Ocon is just a little too inexperienced for Mercedes to take him yet. However, if they did take Ocon, I see Bottas back at Williams.

There are some great drivers coming through in the next year or two. Some of the older guys, some of the dead wood and maybe one or two of the good but not great drivers will not be with us come 2020...

35
Ricciardo Aficionado

Unchanged at Merc next year. There's no reason for them to drop Bottas. 2019 is the earliest Ocon would get a look and even then I don't know why they'd swap him for Bottas if Ham or Vet were in the other car.
At this stage I think the only top seat coming available in the next couple of years is Kimi's.
Hopefully McLaren, Renault and RedBull can provide competitive seats to release the logjam of talent circulating in the midfield.

36

agreed.

37

Mercedes
HAM
OCON
Ferrari
VET
RAI
Red Bull
RIC
VES
Force India
PER
Wehr
Williams
STR
Bottas
Toro Rosso
SAI
Gassly
Renault
HUL
KUB
Haas
GRO
MAG
Sauber
LeClerc
Eri
McLaren
ALO
VAN

this should be like this.

38

It will be an absolute curse to stay with TR, if they switch to Honda.

39

Sainz Senior is talking to several big sponsors in Spain, all of them (and Renault) willing to pay back that mentioned money to Red Bull...

40

renault have invested a lot of time and money testing with kubicca, who brings with him a huge media following. sainz will not see the back of that queue..

41

It seems Sainz senior is doing more harm than good for Juniors career.

42

Recommended you when I meant to disagree ! Sainz is just unlucky to have come along when there are no places at RB. He was almost the equal of Max when they were together, and has completely outgrown this feeder team. The only way is out, and if finding the money is the way to do it, that's what has to be done. You'd really think that Red Bull would realise that Sainz could be a better advertisement for them elsewhere than wasting his time in the B Team. Weird behaviour.

43

sainz nearly didn't make it into toro rosso so he should count his lucky stars for making it this far...

44

You're right, he almost didn't make it to Toro Rosso but he has generally driven very well since he got there. He does now deserve a better car.

45

I'd send an armoured car loaded with 5M E in change to Marko's doorstep.

46

I don't see Sainz moving on to RBR soon and if Hamilton leaves Mclaren, Vettel leaves RBR etc, I don't see why he should change allegiance. But if Red Bull is so keen to keep him, why don't they try more to make Toro Rosso a better team, producing better cars? That would have made F1 much interesing overall

47

There is a danger Sainz could be forgotten if TR do agree a Honda supply and it is as reliable as this year's engine. One hopes for Carlos' sake that he is part of any agreement to end a Renault supply early.

Looking at the points difference, one has to ask why Kvyat is there. Rolling the car at Suzuka has blown his career. TR would be better off with a clean slate if they take the Honda option. Sainz would be a much better option for Renault than Oliver Rowland (I can't believe he wasn't punished for the Hungary feature race move).

49

The chemistry between the Dads was part of the problem at the time . . .

The punch line - modern F1 = go-karts? - LMAO!
Never heard about Ayrton's, Niki's, Carlos', Stirling's, Jim's Dad's -
Theme for your next book, James?

50

Did hear about Damon's, Jacques, Nico and Nelson's dads though.

51

For the right reasons!
Their books published already . . .

52

They were not 19 when they started racing F1 cars either.

53

Horner:

"Carlos Sainz is under contract. We've exercised his option so he's under contract and we have an option on him for next year and the year after. He'll be in a Toro Rosso again next year."

Does that mean they have an option next year (for 2019), and the year after (for 2020), or that it's for "only" 2018 & 2019? I get that a long-term contract like this offers some comfort and assurance, but as now it can also act like a straitjacket.

Funny to hear that it was the dads not getting along before ... it's always the dads, isn't it?! Though must say, Verstappen Sr sounds like a complete nutter.

54

@ KRB...Out of interest you should Google 'Jos Verstappen's violent past history'. IMO that is where Max gets a lot of his attitude especially where Verstappen snr beat up Max's grandad a short while back.

55

Jos reminds me of a Dance Mom ... more interested in living out his own F1 dream than Max's

56

i would do the same for my son..what happens between father and son should be no oje's business especially if the father is continueing in the path of what he started at the very beginning..

57

So you'd be prepared to be a complete nutter as well?
Wait...?

58

@ LKFE hahahaha

59

...right between the eyes Kenny!

60

Jos has a short fuse but i guess nobody is perfect. That temper, however, helped Max in his career.

Jos has his own team so for Max to be developed by his own dad, is logical.

At this time, Jos is less involved in his son's career than Sainz sr. is in Carlos career.

61

@ bs63...You might care to share the reasoning behind your assumption that Jos Verstappens violent temper has helped Max's F1 career?.

62

Yes one does certainly get that impression.

63

The only reason why Vettel escaped the clutches of RBR was by triggering his exit clause in 2014 due to performance. I bet you RBR doesn't let their drivers have such loopholes now.

64

Presumably, you're referring to car performance?
If so, how can a driver prove that the car isn't able to perform at the right level if the driver in question's teammate is able to win three races in the same car?

65
Torchwood Mobile

@Sebee - Red Bull has to provide three things to Max and Daniel in their performance clause, including a "winning car".

Unfortunately for Max, although vocally frustrated with the team, Ricciardo's recent win achieves that "winning car" clause, making it harder for him to move on.

66

From a legal perspective there is a difference between "a winning car" and "a car that won a race".

67

Not wishing to argue, but can you shed some light on the difference? It's unclear to me how this is measured or defined.

68

Could it be that RIC's win in Baku and (his shorter contract) means that he locks Max away from the offers and gets the red seat for himself?
Please, please, please let it be true....

69

@ TorchwoodM...I am intrigued by your knowledge of the contractual obligations between Red Bull and their drivers. Could you please post your sources?

70

@ TorchwoodM...So you apparently read this somewhere with no name? No attribution either? The only thing that i am aware of is a statement put out by Horner/Marko saying that neither driver had any 'get out' clauses in their respective contracts! Is your comment purely supposition? Certainly sounds very much like it.

71

There was an article on the 3 clauses few days back - either quoting Christian or Helmut - don't remember..

72

@ Gravity...I subscribe to an F1 aggregation site and know of no such claims being published anywhere. Yes, it is quite possible that i am totally incorrect and that something has been said somewhere by someone to the contrary, however your 'recollection' is suitably hazy as to be relatively worthless in the context that is being debated.

73

“He only got an opportunity in F1 because of Red Bull investing in him in the junior years, and it’s a little disingenuous to be making comments like that. Without Red Bull he wouldn’t be sitting in an F1 car.”

Did he really say that, or just think it?

Holy $#|+!!!

Now that is some invective/incentive (however you want to read it) to move out of the RB stables.

But Sainz is at a real milestone now. If he doesn't move up, then he'll be leaving. It is certainly the same for the unfairly treated Danil Kvyat.

I have a difficult time believing that TR has signed both of them to 2018.

But Sainz is showing the frustration in his results more at the moment; he looks like a driver who is fed up. He knows he has the talent, but is locked from moving.
I expect he'll go, and certainly NOT to RB, unless The Max is snapped up by Merc or Ferr.

While it is bad enough in the holding pattern IN F1, Gasly is in a holding pattern NOT in F1!

74

thinks he has the talent

75

I think that is precisely what is going on, Sainz knows he could be doing well in a better car - he could be a champion - but he is stuck in a midfield car which now looks like it will even be going backwards next year with the Honda deal. It must be incredibly frustrating.

76

Sainz and 13 other drivers that aren't in one of the top 3 cars

The real cause of all this kerfuffle is that there simply isn't enough cars on the grid.
It might be a good thing If Sauber pulled out... then the remains 9 teams would have to run 3 cars each... giving a total of 24 seats and the chance to see Norris and LeClerc etc. in action.

77

Your mathematics is just superb!

78

I think he should be patient. Yes, there are a number of upcoming talents (Leclerc and Ocon) who will likely be in demand at a race winning team, but there are a number of drivers who are not likely to remain around for too many more years. Certainly Raikkonen. Harder to say with Hamilton and Vettel but I get the sense that the former may retire sooner than later. Everything depends on the relative competitiveness of the teams, though.

79

Right, completely agree. Not only there are a number of upcoming talents but there will also be a demand for experienced drivers. I think people underestimate the importance of experience, and the rumours behind Wehrlein/Sainz/Ocon to Mercedes last year after Rosberg exit were just silly. There's a reason its Bottas driving that car in 2017.

80

Toro Rosso is turning out to be more of a dead end than a road to fame. Long list of drivers who got stuck at the end of it.

81

Would love to know what chaved so much in the Sainz-Verstappen sr. relationship. In the Jrs it's obviously that Sainz felt sidestepped and did everything to prove he was good enough, couldn't handle the Verstappen hype. But the Srs?

82

Maybe the Sainz posse have been too busy with playing political games like trying to frustrate the relationship between Max & RBR, so a gap would open up for Carlos at RBR.

Such games were played by them at TR too in 2015/2016 and that's why the bomb went off previous season.

83

@bs63....Trying to analyse what happened at TR when Sainz and Verstappen were there reminds me that there was much comment re Jos Verstappen's abrasive and sometimes aggressive behaviour within the team that helped TR/RB to make the decision to shift Verstappen Jnr to RB. According to various reports Franz Tost said that things were far smoother and they were able to function better now that the Verstappens had moved on. I also believe, rightly or wrongly, that Jos verstappen was banned from the TR garage and also he was told that he wasn't welcome in Max's side of the garage at RB either. As this was some time back my recollections are a bit hazy but the Dutch contingnet are sure to answer if i am wrong!!!!

84

I dont agree. If you look at the present situation at Torro Rosso. We can all see the issues and tension between Sainz en Kvyat today. The constant factor is Sainz. Same for the bullshit they did with the Max/Ferrari story in the Spannish newspaper.

85

@ jeroen...Right on cue!!! So you disagree? That is your inalienable prerogative. That said, then you might care to provide the evidence to refute those allegations that were made. You might also re read my post and think about it a little more. I am talking about what happened 18months ago. The current issue at TR between Sainz and Kvyat bears little to no similarity to the past aggravation within TR. You might care to do what i suggested to KRB earlier and Google the past history of Jos Verstappen and his violent past. You most likely know all about that but have refrained from taking that into account as it wouldn't sit well with your hypothesis.

86

I think Sainz has every reason to be on the look out for something better. Both Verstapen and Kvyat have had there chance and although you could argue Verstapen was the better choice to swap with Kvyat so could Sainz put a good case forward. His driving is not the standard it was over the last few years and no doubt that is down to his frustrations, but even Red Bull themselves aren't winning races, Ferrari and Merc are the contenders, only McLaren and Renault will offer a chance with the reg changes to challenge that. If he sits an Toro Rosso for a few more years waiting can he still be classed as being a junior driver? I'm with Sainz he neees a chance in a quick car to show that he can cut it, if Kubica doesn't return my guess is he will be in a Reault next year, or Williams if Massa re retires

87

I do think that Sainz should be glad that he's got a seat. There is plenty of competition and if he simply knuckles down and proves conclusively that he's the real deal then his opportunities will come. He certainly has talent and it could lead to better things but he needs to concentrate on making himself a standout. It must be galling for him to see the likes of Palmer and the Stroll taking their place at the table based on their ability to pay large amounts for their drive. That is only an example as both these drivers are talented but not really top F1 material IMO.

88

Call the newspapers! I agree with you, @kenneth.

89

@ Lemwil...jut a collective acknowledgment of superior intellect hahahaha

90

Agree Ken,
There's an element of entitlement showing there...he will only increase his stock if he focuses on the development of the TR car, rather than driving around waiting for his Uber upgrade...

91

@ LKFE.... yes, you are right of course. I do know however that i share his 'impatience' as i would have to be one of the worst offenders myself. I have the patience of a gnat and i cannot stand indecision. That can be either good or bad but at least as a driving force it resolves situations and gets results!! hahaha

92
Tornillo Amarillo

More noise for Stroll at 18 with 3 excellent score-finishes...

93

Agree he should be grateful he's got a seat in a good midfield team, for the moment. Back in 2013, he and Kvyat contested the GP3 Series, and whereas Kvyat won the title, Sainz couldn't buy a win and had several shunts.

Sainz is sponsored - by Red Bull, so you could argue he brings money to the team as a pay driver!

94

kvyat had a redbull contract for 2015 and didn't complain when redbull gave his seat to verstappen....kvyat, therefore is in a better position than sainz...too much noise would leave sainz without an f1 seat..

95

I would hardly call Palmer talented for that matter.

96

Why is Palmer still even in Formula 1? No personal issue with the guy, I actually like him off-circuit, but he just keeps digging a bigger hole. I think 80% of driving is all in the mind, and he seems to have really big break-downs in concentration. I think he might fare better at a less pressured environment like Formula E.

97

With what is happening to the drivers market with DTM and LMP1 it is time to hang fire for Sainz. Put 100% into driving for Torro Roso next season and see what happens with Max and Daniel. His management should be in talks with all teams about 2019.

98
Ricciardo Aficionado

Definitely.
It is likely 2019 will see one of Max or DR leave RedBull.

99

Don't consider his ties with Red Bull a big problem, that is if a team rates him and wants him bad enough, they will simply pay Red Bull off. It'll still be cheaper than hiring Alonso.

If it is Renault that want him, I'm sure a nice little deal could be done with engine supply.

100

Red Bull wants a product like VER. It doesn't matter if he is so effective or a regular driver, the important is that you feel he is fast or spectacular. IMO probably RIC is the best of his generation: he is fast, he is smart, he is hard to be passed but real CLEAN, but Marko felt in love with the Dutch.

At the end, if they are fighting for WDC, one side of the garage is the contender and the other is Valteri Bottas

You talk about SAI words, he is talking every GP driving, he scored more points than VER in their first season, and he is more stable, smarter in track. Probably is the first choice at Renault but RB is trying to covering his back.

SAI has demonstrated he is not in F1 by Marko's graciousness or charity, he fought in previous categories and he won. No one gives anything for nothing.

101

You talk about SAI words, he is talking every GP driving, he scored more points than VER in their first season

Verstappen 49 - Sainz 18

102

I'm sorry, you are right. Better to put results to get some light on that season

AUS RACE --- SAI 9th - VER DNF --- QUALY --- SAI 7th - VER 11th
MAL RACE --- SAI 8th - VER 7th --- QUALY --- SAI 15th - VER 6th
CHINA RACE --- SAI 13th - VER DNF --- QUALY --- SAI 14th - VER 13th
BAHR RACE --- SAI DNF - VER DNF --- QUALY --- SAI 9th - VER 15th
SPAIN RACE --- SAI 9th - VER 11th --- QUALY --- SAI 5th - VER 6th
MON RACE --- SAI 10th - VER DNF --- QUALY --- SAI 8th - VER 10th
CAN RACE --- SAI 12th - VER 15th --- QUALY --- SAI 11th - VER 12th
AUSTR RACE --- SAI DNF - VER 8th --- QUALY --- SAI 13th - VER 7th
GB RACE --- SAI DNF - VER DNF --- QUALY --- SAI 8th - VER 13th
HUNG RACE --- SAI DNF - VER 4th --- QUALY --- SAI 12th - VER 9th
BELG RACE --- SAI DNF - VER 8th --- QUALY --- SAI 10th - VER DNF
ITA RACE --- SAI 11th - VER 12th --- QUALY --- SAI 13th - VER DNS
SINGAP RACE --- SAI 9th - VER 8th --- QUALY --- SAI 14th - VER 8th
JAPAN RACE --- SAI 10th - VER 9th --- QUALY ---SAI 12th - VER 15th
RUSSIA RACE --- SAI DNF - VER 10th --- QUALY --- SAI DNS - VER 9th
USA RACE --- SAI 7th - VER 4th --- QUALY --- SAI DNS - VER 10th
MEX RACE --- SAI 13th - VER 9th --- QUALY --- SAI 11th - VER 8th
BRA RACE --- SAI DNF - VER 9th --- QUALY --- SAI 12th - VER 10th
ABU D RACE --- SAI 11th - VER 16th --- QUALY --- SAI 10th - VER 11th

103

verstappen captured f1 hearts with his overtaking moves, most of which were manufactured but they still got our attention. sainz hardly made any moves of his own apart from dancing in the corners..

104

I agree, VER & FOM (continous focus on him ) captured hearts and no analysis or explanation can solve that. I just I have my opinion and I understand F1 need their own product-stars. No argue about heart issues

105

So you see, Sainz is not the real deal, VER is.

106

Please be accurate when you market Sainz: 2015: VER -SAI jr : 49-18. 2016: VER vs junior: 13-4. Overall qualy combined 2015/16: VER: Quicker.

107

Champ points don't really tell the tale though do they.
Qualy SAI 10: VER 9
DNF SAI 7: VER 5
Head to Head (when both finish) SAI 4: VER 5
Head to Head Points (when both finish) SAI 15: VER 26
Points when teammate DNF's SAI 3: VER 23
A lot closer than the headlines...and a fair amount of luck there too!

108

yeh sure. And then you forget all the problems Verstappen had in Qually. So he was on the back foot often. Also you forget that Max had less expierence and that Sainz was the better in the first 6 races. From then on Max was surpassing Sainz. With all respect. But if you just look at the speed in Qually and especially in the races Max was the better driver (not even looking at poins etc.)

109

"he scored more points than VER in their first season"

Err, come again? Verstappen outscored Sainz 49-18 in 2015. Verstappen was also the better qualifier (10-9) and got the better results (5-4) when both finished the race, albeit not by much.
http://grandprixrankings.com/compare/2015-f1/verstappen-versus-sainz-jr/

110

I agree completely with you, i felt SAI was a better driver than VER back in their Torro Rosso days, and i still feel he would be more consistent in a winning team now.

Great article though, really explains how fractious things are getting in the driver market. RAI's longevity is really causing problems up and down the grid.

111

How on earth can you feel that when watching their time together? On occasions it was close but VER was better then Sainz clearly, especialy if you =consider that sainz had more seasons in single seaters..

112

DJ, so you're saying it's VER's lack of experience that makes him better than SAI?

113

"And Ricciardo and Verstappen, while not poor, are not paid close to what Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel get..."
It would be interesting to have an update on how much each driver is paid this year.

114

...Since you ask, to get an idea (some salaries include bonuses while others do not) there is this list, the source being Business Book GP: http://www.formulapassion.it/2017/05/f1-stipendi-2017-dei-piloti/

115

Thanks!

116

James, while you're at it, can you pull some numbers about the Team budgets please.

117

Ferrari SUV is coming!

Ha ha ha!

I bet you it will be a hybrid too - to save previous fuel. As electrification nears, and US Air force buys Teslas to accompany U-2 take offs thanks to the acceleration (how cool is that for Tesla by the way?) survival is going to get tougher and tougher for Ferrari. I mean, even P85D stands up just fine to a F12 in a quarter mile, and that's a 5 passenger car at 1/3 the price.

118

how much profit did tesla make in 2016?

119

And that matters at this point why?

Tesla has captured the imagination. If Space X is any indication of where this dreamer concludes his vision, then profit ahead will be secondary to humanity's benefits. More and more people list Tesla as their aspirational vehicle. McLaren brags about bettering P100D standing quarter mile time...by 0.2s! Tesla has already sent shock waves through auto industry. Biggest brands shake in their pants. Our imaginations have been set free. Cars getting safer, faster, better with updates beamed overnight? Speed unmatched in 7 passenger cars at fraction of cost?

Profit...is that your only measure of greatness?

120

Oh my, Sergio says the Ferrari SUV will be called a "Ferrari Utility Vehicle".

Yes, an FU-V!

I wonder if it will lift some design cues from the Caterham nose?

121

Carlos is quick, but he has had some worrying incidents over the last two seasons. The problem he has is he was passed over for promotion, clearly Rrd Bull thought Max was the better prospect, so why would another top team think any differently with less data to look at? Carlos has two choices, stay at TR, and wind his neck in, or try and get into Williams or Renault. Renault seem set on Kubica (brilliantly) and at 23 he is a bit young to flog Martini, so Williams might be out of the question as well.

122

he spend too much time with alonso, on and off track. that's his problem.

123

Carlos probably being a bit dozy from constant media questions.He should just get on with it at torro rosso as one of the 2 red bull drivers will almost certainly be on their way year after next regardless of how good the car is by then.
Only Ferrari or mercedes would be worth it unless Mclaren get a lot better.
If its not one of those 3 why bother . He doesnt have to copy every action of his idol.

124

IMO Red Bull Jr is a great program.
Felipe Nasr used to be part of it at F-BMW, but left it to grab the corrupt money from Banco do Brasil and Petrobras.
Now he has no financial backing and we - probably - will never know how good he is/was.
...
You see on YouTube that Verstappen used to race LeClerc in go-karts.
LeClerc is backed by Ferrari and Nicholas Todt and still not driving in F1.
If LeClerc gets there next year, Max will have 2.5 years of experience.
...
I believe Sainz can buy back his contract and leave the team.
That would be a dream to Toro Rosso as they are in nego with Honda and therefore could fit in Nobu Matsushita.
TR could sell a lot of RedBulls in Russia and Japan.
...
Now we know that Nobuharu is not a relative of King Hiro.
But is Lando Norris a relative of Chuck Norris ? xD
...

Sainz/Verstappen pairing was toxic at Toro Rosso and was instrumental in Verstappen being promoted to Red Bull

Its such an irony that Sainz - indirectly - helped Verstappen to be promoted to the top team.

125

Carlos needs to get out. Asap. You have to move up and forward. If I was in his position id sacrifice my pay for the better cause. It will pay off in the long run. If he sits still he will end up in formula E....

126

first he needs to get up, stay up before wanting to move up..
falling for the media hype, will simply burry his career..

127

A bit like that Verstapoen guy?

128

There is really no where for him to go. It depends where Alonso goes. Unless it's Renault open up JP seat. Kubica is limited whatever any of his rose tinted glasses say.
Either Alonso is team leader there with Hulks in a Kimi role. Or its Sainz on equal terms with Hulks. If Alonso stays at Mclaren.
Red Bull are sitting tight with Max and Ricciardo. This will vhange after next season when Max and Lewis end up as Ferrari Drivers.

129

RB has officially taken over as the team I most dislike. Another fine example of the atmosphere to drive for Red Bull under Marko, I for one will be glad when he is history. And also a great example of loose lips... perhaps young Sainz will think more about his comments.

130

Marko talks a lot or rubbish. I not an expert on German contract law but I'm pretty sure that it would be close to everywhere else... if Carlos met the requirements of his contract each year through his pre-F1 career, RBR have no claim on trying to re-coup the payments.
They would of course factor that expenditure into his transfer value.
This whole episode is just contract negotiation posturing. Carlos will be in a TR for 2018.
As for the rest of the driver line up... as usual, there will only be a couple of changes for 2018

131

Sorry, German law should be Austrian law. (I got lost for a minute)

132

Why German contract law? Afaik the team is based in the UK and the owner in Austria.

133

When Money Speaks!
Seems it's a big defeat for F1, when world star's sons come into F1!
Why do not those who fight against difficult odds get more chance?
For example, Felix Rosenqvist! He has defeated all the so-called "stars"!
Still he has not got a F1 chance! Not even a test! Why?
Is F1 more about old contacts and black money than about who are the best drivers?

134

Rosenqvist and Verstappen drove one season together in F3. Rosenqvist (with 2 seasons experience in F3) was nowhere. So I haven't got a clue what you're on about. Better check your facts.

135

Agree .. except Jos wasn't exactly a 'World Star' ... he was the Jolyon Palmer of his generation.

136

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. It was one of the most promising drivers. But with no or little backing he was unable to get a good seat.
Palmer brings a lot of money and less talent.

137

Yes and he seemed to spend much of his time behind the wheel beached in gravel traps as he did on the track itself.

138

it all seem to rotate around word 'stuck' - and i mean all Redbull/Tororosso drivers and teams themselves - teams with regards of powerunits, drivers with any perspective/possible move - it's all STUCK @ RedBull camp right now. unless they do up another team and do the own pu's for 3 teams then

139

And how can you raise the one who comes last, to the clouds!
Ask Paddy, so sad! But if I'm saying something good, maybe Mercedes goes with money, another sad statement!
Get Felix! Best driver without a contract!

140

What is not good is that the sons have grown up to the clouds!
One might ask, where are the best drivers?
Rosenqvist is one! Is any impressed?
Or is it all about money?

141

why is he trying to move to RB? RB hasnt produce and will not produce any time soon a winner car, he should stay in TR and shut up until get the chance to negotiate when his contract end, he is still young and has talent, and even more important HE STILL HAS A SIT IN F1 .... so I think he should keep that sit and keep driving and improving waiting to move out from that RB structure that certainly wouldn't offer anything to him nor VER nor RIC nor anyone else..

what if there are so many young talents "so coming" to F1, where are they coming? next year most likely will be 1 or 2 sits open for new drivers, since ferrari, rb, williams, mercedes, haas, looks like had already take a decision on their pair,

which team is looking for drivers, who is disparate trying to get a "sainz like" driver? the options if there are any, are mclaren and sauber.... lol... renault and force india maybe... but there are plenty of options for them too.

in conclusion: shut your mouth kid.

142
Clarks4WheelDrift

Sainz is also suffering with this terrible gulf between Red Bull to the midfield.

Will McLaren ever improve to compete?
Will Renault ever improve to compete?
Will a Merc customer team, like WIlliams, EVER be able to win a race again?

It is such a gamble to move and still be miles behind that racing destroying Mercedes Works car.

Doubly worse that the top two teams don't want internal racing between the likes of Seb V Sainz V Alonso V Lewis V Max, sounds like they want a fast and an slow "number 2" driver pairing up again in 2018, which is a shame.

Sainz to Ferrari, Kimi to replace Massa, Seb to have a challenge!

143

Put Sainz in a Williams and we'll find out how fast it can actually go.

144

If money is the most important thing to him then he must stay. If better driving opportunities come his way and he wants to excel then he must pay back Red Bull and leave. David Coulthard often says that he drove for free and got paid for all of the promotional work. I suspect all true racers have the same ethos. Chances to excel in F1 are very rare. When I last checked the figures a few years ago for whole history of F1, only 1 in 8 drivers that makes the start grid goes on to win a grand prix. He has to pay up and leave.

145

It strikes me that with a drivers market as flooded as it is Carlos should keep his mouth shut or he'll end up driving a electric powered milk float with the other red bull rejects.
Frank Williams I believe said build a fast car and the drivers come calling.
To give a further example, if Mercedes offered Alonso 1 million to drive for them if would.
I mean Bottas, a good driver, but not exactly someone most considered a world champion has beaten Hamilton fair and square a couple of times this year and when Hamilton be vettel take each other out later this season we could well see him leading the wdc......car or driver.....?

146
Tornillo Amarillo

Sainz said to leave, RB was harsh,
then Sainz said to stay...
Not good this change for his career, he needs to be clear and learn more diplomatic skills.

Anyway, RB should FREE SAINZ as I said before, he is great and there is no room in RB.

147

Why can't red bull make toro rosso into another red bull A team it would make things much more interesting / fair and surely they have the funds.

148

Just suck it up..no opening at other good teams in 2018 + high chance one of the RB senior drivers could leave 2019. Sometimes that is how life goes.

149

Sainz may be very good - i don't know - but a. he was beaten by Verstappen and b. young talent is coming up every year.
That means he will never get the nr 1 seat in a top team, he should aim for 2nd driver. But 2nd driver needs to be mature and Sainz is making too many errors at the moment. Best for Sainz seems to be a career path like Hulkenberg. Worst is the Vergne way.

150

RBR are just doing their due diligence with Sainz. It might well be that they have to hold him in the TR for 2018, simply because one of Max or Ric could walk. Sainz is then next in line. What are his options elsewhere? Renault might be one, but are they going to be better than TR. If Alonso walks from McLaren, he could be a good fit there and hope for the sleeping giant to awaken. Merc and Ferrari seem to have their own proteges waiting in the wings. And is Sainz higher up on teams' wish lists than Perez, for example. I'd give Sergio the edge and comes with all that sponsorship potential. Then there's the possible return of Robert looming...

Sainz might be better off sitting tight for the possibility of a big shakeup in '18. Then again, if Max and Ric extend and TR bombs with Honda, it would seem like the end of the road for Sainz. All of that is probably a large reason for his frustration this year.

151
Clarks4EWheelDrift

A lot of comparisons between Sai and Ver's full season together using specific stats, but is should also be noted how close it was:

Q: Ver 10 to Sai 9 (but Sai was 20th on three occasions that season)

Races: Ver 5 to Sai 4 when both finished, but Sai had 7 DNFs to Ver 5 DNFs, some self inflicted like Monaco.

152

The article seems to have overlooked just how badly Ric is being beaten by the Verstappen kid, where could he go ?

153

Seems like the other way around to me;
4 Daniel Ricciardo AUS RED BULL RACING TAG HEUER 117 points
6 Max Verstappen NED RED BULL RACING TAG HEUER 67 points

Going really fast but having accidents and breaking the machinery whilst doing it compared to going really fast but not having accidents and not breaking the machinery. I know which one I would want in my team.

Verstappen could well be the next Grossjean, fast but missing the rest of the package that makes champions. As this year has proven, it's too early to tell and teams know that.

154

Lol yeh he broke the cars. Sure. You must be joking. Max was driving in front of Ricciardo most of the times when his car broke down. But ofcourse you can blame it on Max. But i am sure the people with knowledge and inside information have a more realistic look on how Max compares to Daniel.

155

Excellent read. Thanks Mr Allen

156

Surely 2018 will be Raikkonen's last year and Ricciardo is the logical replacement with his well proven speed, consistency and unmatched overtaking skill, plus he will be available and has Italian heritage. What that means for Vettel is the interesting part, can he handle the heat that Ricciardo will bring, this time? I seriously doubt that Vettel would allow Verstappen alongside even more so. But Hamilton may well chuck it in and then Vettel is a walk up for Mercedes. That may well leave 2 spots at Ferrari, with Ricciardo in #1 who is #2? The Ferrari junior drivers are far too inexperienced at F1, so that leaves Sainz. A Ricciardo & Sainz pairing at Ferrari would be hot, I like it.

To me Verstappen needs another year to mature, although he can be fast he makes too many mistakes, runs into his team mates and is demonstrably hard on the equipment. At this time he is simply not consistent enough for a Mercedes or Ferrari seat. What he does next year really determines his future, is he just the next Grossjean, fast but .......................

157

Interesting read. However I came across something that probably most viewers aren't aware of and surprised myself a bit as well: When running both cars at the same time RedBull only completed 247 laps this year (1st lap incidents with retirement count as 0). Of those 247 laps it was Verstappen that led the RedBulls for 185 against 62 for Ricciardo. If you don't take the British GP in account (in which Ricciardo was hampered through quali-issues it's still 134 against 62.

Out of all the GP's so far Ricciardo has only led Verstappen at 3 GP's: China, Bahrein (for 1 lap, through Verstappen's brake issues) and Monaco (strategy call by the team). In China Ricciardo led Verstappen because of the pit windows.

So yes: Ricciardo is consistent and gets the points (which matters a lot), but with proven speed and unmatched overtaking skill I think Verstappen might be the better bet. We all know that Verstappen lags behind him in the standings, but also know that, that most of it was because of technical issues. If I was a Mercedes or Ferrari teamboss with a vacant seat to fill, I would surely prefer Verstappen at this point in time.

158

yes: Ricciardo is consistent and gets the points

and I think that's it, neither teams or drivers get points for "maybe its better" or "can be faster", you can argue whatever you want but if VES is behind RIC on points thats it.

159

You're not taking into account that all DNF's weren't by VER own doing. That's a tale that most people do take into account. Take last year: Nico won the WC, but I think most people would agree that Lewis is the better driver. Or maybe let's take a look at 2015: Kvyat outscored Ricciardo over the whole season (meaning he was more consistent and got the points, if only by 2), still I would rate Ricciardo higher then Kvyat in that particular season.

160

and where can they take this "most rathed wdc" trophy you say?

com'on guys, VES will be a great driver and its not yet... just be patience like he needs to be, he is lacking consistency, whether its because his fault or dnf excuse...

161

An interesting statistic but basically useless, take Budapest for example. Verstappen qualifies in front of Ricciardo by a tiny margin, then makes a mistake off the start and Ricciardo goes past. Verstappen then makes another mistake whilst trying to recover and hits Ricciardo bursting his radiator. That's 2 mistakes by Verstappen, the second of which takes out his team mate and also earns himself a 10 second penalty. Using your quoted statistics that's a "win" for Verstappen but looking at it from a team perspective is a terrible "loss", unforgivable in fact.

162

Well said Gary, the MVFC will point at any stat they can run through the abacus and disown any DNF's, however there are a number of them that occurred as a result of him being putting the car in a dangerous position (inviting contact). His first corner 3 into 1's win him a lot of fans, but also create a lot of contact.
After the Hungary incident he said that its his strategy to be an aggressive as possible on the first lap in order to gain as many positions as possible. Sure...but at what cost.

163

@ Gary...absolutely correct. Teams win WC's for having the most points. How you actually get them is of secondary importance.

164

In those statistics that's 0 laps where both RedBulls were driving, so that doesn't count to inter team laps led by either driver.

165

The overriding challenge Red Bull finds itself having to deal with now is, will it be worth the ugly tribulations of continuing to employ disgruntled drivers?
Nobody wants or needs unhappy, angry, self-centred people at the pointy end of a billion dollar Formula 1 team? Harmony and respect ensures the best results are achieved for a highly talented team.
Frustration is hard enough to deal with in employees minds but, when it morphs into feeling disgruntled, (and then fury - as we witnessed with Kvyat in May 2016), that person would be better far off working elsewhere and starting anew.

Daniel showed his true feelings regarding Verstappen in the heat of the moment at Hungary. Can't say I blame him really! I'm convinced Dan feels betrayed by Marko and has been slowly simmering away inside at having to deal with the premature Verstappen move to the big boys team ... meaning he didn't get the chance to shine as there new No:1 driver for 5 mins after Seb left before they threw their next young lion into the ring to steal Dan's well earned thunder.
They have broken the intended harmonious chain of well-paced progression by placing two prodigal sons on the one team at the same time. It's obvious that it could only end it tears but, where too once the partnership fails and one leaves the nest?
It actually opens an even nastier couple of cans of worms.
Worm tin 1: If Verstappen is forced to remain under the claustrophobic terms of a strictly enforced contract, he will be extremely unhappy and continually expose that inner unrest via the media. (which Red Bull's management despises - even though they excel at it when it suits their agenda!)
Worm tin 2: Sainz wants to move up to Red Bull but, as JA says, what if the seat is vacated by Daniel? With Sainz and Verstappen as team mates, we instantly step back into sordid memories of the mentally taxing abyss of Vettel (No:1driver) v Webber (No:2 driver).
It also creates powerful family friction off the track between the Poppa Bears which sullies the water even further.

In future, UTONIC CALM should be the sports-drink of choice on the negotiation table, instead of cans of RED BULL supercharging those already over-hyped egos and fuelling heated arguments!

My personal wish is for Daniel Ricciardo to finally grow wings, fly the coup at the end of 2018 and finish his career in the Scarlet saddle of an Italian prancing horse!

If all else fails ... Red Bull will just have to suck it up and learn how to stagger the arrivals of their prodigies - therein lies the perfect way to quell the fury created by the frustration of being stuck in the "little sister" team.

166

@ jack....Well said there. i fully agree with your sentiments. Once Marko gives Daniel the 'evil eye' that's it!!! Time to move on.

167

Hallelujah and Amen Jack!

169

Great choice for cover photography. Sainz outside looking in?

170

sainz should go to formula E and bring back JEV into toro rosso

171

sainz should have stop taking advice from alonso the moment he got into f1 afterall alonso's choices are public knowledge..sainz stands to exit f1 faster than alonso. it's the teams' market right now because of the sudden influx of young talen due to the lewis hamilton effect on motorsport as a whole...all wanting top spots with only 10 teams...teams are generally not worried about bringing in teanagers after verstappen's demonstration so sainz should hush, keep his head down and just drive that car and hope for an opening....if he keeps disstablising his team by crashing into his teammate he'll soon close the door behind him at redbull because redbull owes kvyat for giving up his seat for the team sensation and owe sainz nothing. nothing!

172

'Lewis Hamilton Effect' ?
- Aveli

OMG somebody is already suffering from F1 abstinence.

173

why is it that many fall to their knees in prayer at the sight of the words "the lewis hamilton effect"?

174

Congratulations Aveli!
You've invented 'The Lewis Hamilton Effect'.
You should run for the Nobel Prize... the Q is in which category: Physics or Literature {Fiction}.

175

The 'Lewis Hamilton Effect' sounds like title for a B Grade telemovie whereby supernatural forces combine to frustrate a particular person from winning motor races and the hero comes back into play after getting assistance from a second rate source under his controllers influence ! Still i rise.

177

you become amazingly creative at the site of those words..

178

What the hell is the "Lewis Hamilton effect"? What Verstappen has demonstrated is that being fast doesn't get points (or win championships), you also need to stay out of accidents (especially with your team mate) and not break the machinery. A complete package is required and to date a "teenager" hasn't demonstrated that.

180

lewis hamilton has had a huge effect on f1 if you weren't aware. because of hamilton, soft pirelli tyres, kers and drs were introduced to help other drivers have a go at what hamilton demonstrated in 2006-2008.
an increased number of boys and parents were motivated to have a go at becoming racing drivers.
the lewis hamilton effect was so profound that a book of his life story was published before the end of his f1 rookie season andvyou ask what the lewis hamilton effect is?

181

One mistake he made this year. What are you even talking about. Other crashes where the fault of Bottas for example.

4 races the RBR did broke down on him. While Ricciardo was driving behind him. It has nothing to do with Max. But if you think slower is better. Be my guest.

182

I don't know why people keep arguing that dnf excuse has nothing to do with VER, I mean, he is driving the car right, so maybe, just maybe he is doing something wrong when he drives the car that make its fail more than RIC's car?

Why is that RIC has the exact same car and run the exact same circuits during same days and his car its not failing that much? I know and accept that RB has fail to provide a good car this season (and the season before and so on) and of course could be something they are doing wrong on max's car,,,, but taking all the responsability of max's shoulders and say that if he wasn't dnf then he would be in front of RIC in the points table... its just lame...

stop the hype guys, I agree VER is one in a million, he will be champion and he might be one of the best drivers in the history... but its not yet, has a lot to learn and do to achieve it, and a certain percentage of he missing points this season is his fault.

183

when will verstappen become one of the best drivers in the world and which parameters are used to decide that?
from what i know, qualifying, overtaking, defending, race victories and championships are categories that can be used to determine drivers' greatness... verstappen is excellent at all except victories and championships. vettel for example has the championships and victories but not as good as verstappen in the other areas. why is vettel described as one of the best and not verstappen?

184

Lewis Hamilton effect? Lol!

185

i laughed out loud and nothing happened..
what was meant to have happened?

186

No, when it comes to you aveli.. it's Lots of Love...

187

😂😂

188

what is "it" and when will it come to me?
how will "it" know where i am?

a lot of love for f1!

189

I think that I have a hunch for what to expect. Carlos Sainz is his father's son. And, therein lies the rub. His father was never cut from the same cloth as any F-1 driver. Neither is his son. The Sainz men are cut from their own cloth, much different than the F-1 cloth. I see the future holding the highest accolades for Carlos Sainz, maybe even more than for his father. But, his strength, and his destiny, is not in F-1. Let's celebrate that fact. Cheers, Carlos.

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