“I don’t believe it” – Sebastian Vettel pours doubt on dream start as Bottas maintains an F1 tradition
Vettel, Bottas F1
Posted By: James Allen  |  09 Jul 2017   |  3:45 pm GMT  |  365 comments

Valtteri Bottas rocketed away from pole position to win the Austrian Grand Prix, keeping alive a curious tradition at this circuit in recent times; the supposed ‘number two’ drivers in the teams frequently outperform their star team mates here.

It started with Rubens Barrichello in 2002, dominating the race before being controversially told by Ferrari to give the win to Michael Schumacher. David Coulthard won here the previous year, while when the track returned to the calendar in 2014, Nico Rosberg twice prevailed over Lewis Hamilton.

It was another great win for Bottas, his second of the season after a sharp getaway from pole position. The Finn was only a few milliseconds off jumping the start, according to the FIA stewards. But Sebastian Vettel was having none of it, repeating in the podium interviews, the press conference and the TV pen that he was adamant Bottas jumped the start.

Bottas described it as the ‘start of my life’ and he needed it on a day when Vettel was really on form. The German leaves Austria with a 20 point lead over Lewis Hamilton, who had another off-peak weekend.

Austrian GP 2017

Vettel was adamant that Bottas jumped the start and said that he found it distracting when judging his own start.

“I don’t believe it”, he said when told that Bottas’ reaction time was 0.2s, which is the normal elite human reaction time.

I was watching this from directly above Bottas’ car in the media centre, more of less looking directly down into the Mercedes cockpit. It was immediately noticeable that Bottas was moving before the others, but I couldn’t see the start lights so have no way of knowing whether he anticipated them. Hamilton also seemed to be moving quickly from the start.

Bottas surely now has to be considered a serious contender for the world championship, just 15 points adrift of his team mate Hamilton in the standings as we approach the half way stage. “I believe and the team believes” said Bottas of his chances of taking the title in his first season with Mercedes.

It was the fourth time this season that Hamilton has finished a race but not made the podium. In comparison, Vettel has only had two finishes where he didn’t stand on the podium. This consistency could really count later in the year.

Lewis Hamilton

The other thing that will help him is that Ferrari again was willing to leave Raikkonen out to try to affect their rivals’ race, knowing that it would cost him positions. Once Hamilton undercut him, the team initially thought about pitting the Finn, but then realised that the place was lost already and it was better to leave him out, hanging around 19 seconds behind Bottas in his pit window.

Once Bottas was forced to pit, he rejoined behind Raikkonen but the Ferrari driver on worn tyres made a mistake and it was an easy pass for Bottas, not what was intended by Ferrari.

But with Raikkonen now on half the points of Vettel he is working for the Ferrari’s drivers championship with the German, while Bottas is bringing himself into play at Mercedes.

What was very encouraging about the result in Austria was how close the top four cars were at the finish. Vettel was only 0.6secs behind Bottas while Ricciardo was only five seconds back in the Red Bull. With all the upgrades coming on the cars, it is impressive how close Mercedes and Ferrari remain. While Red Bull appears to be closing up too, which is encouraging for the second half of the season.

Ferrari has an engine upgrade for the next race in Silverstone, a track that should really suit their car.

Max Verstappen

Bittersweet day for Red Bull Racing on their home track
Daniel Ricciardo’s fifth consecutive podium was built on his actions at either end of the Grand Prix. He made a decisive pass on Kimi Raikkonen at the start of the race and then had to defend from Hamilton in the final lap. Red Bull looked as though they were going to be around 7/10ths of a second a lap slower than the front-runners, but in the end it was closer. Mercedes again seemed to struggle with the softest of the Pirelli tyre compounds.

However Ricciardo’s teammate Max Verstappen had another retirement, his third in a row and the fifth of the season. This time he was the victim of a lunge by Toro Rosso driver Daniil Kvyat on Fernando Alonso, which smashed the Spaniard into the Dutchman and led to the retirement of both.

Kvyat is likely to be in serious trouble with the Red Bull management for that, rather like the Sochi 2016 episode, where he was demoted from Red Bull for causing a collision at the start of the Russian GP, which led to Max Verstappen taking his seat for the next race in Spain.

Verstappen will be furious, even more furious than he was after retiring with engine problems in Baku. But Spirit of the Day award surely goes to the tens of thousands of Dutch Fans who packed into the grandstand at Turn 2, turning it orange. They must have been gutted when Max went out on the opening lap, but they stayed to the end, making noise and even letting off an orange smoke flare at the end.

Felipe Massa
Williams set up ambush but Massa unable to pull the trigger

The battle in midfield was pretty exciting, thanks to the chaos at the start with Kvyat triggering the accident with Verstappen and Alonso. This opened up the midfield as they drive around it and allowed the Williams pair to leap up from 17th and 18th on the grid up to 10th and 11th. Grosjean also made it up to the top four briefly, while the Force India pair were again assured in steering through the trouble.

Williams had split the strategies, possibly thinking that rain had been forecast and that this gave them the best way to hedge their bets. Stroll was on the supersofts, Massa the softs. Massa did very well on these tyres to Lap 48. This set him up for a final 23 lap blast on ultrasoft where he would attack Ocon, Perez and Grosjean. Who were all on older supersoft tyres.

But disappointingly he did not have the pace on the new tyres to attack.

It was a great day for Grosjean and Haas. One thinks of him as always complaining on the radio about the balance and the brakes and then he gets a result like this, his fifth points finish of the season. The Force India duo again bagged points in 7th and 8th , while Lance Stroll managed to score a point for the third race in a row.

What did you think of the race? Did you think Bottas jump the start? Leave your comment in the section below

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There are videos out there that show bottas onboard...car starts moving with red light still on. How is that not a jump start?


I believe that video is often compressed and that a 'frame' may be a composite of two still images. It might, anyway but I would not trust video to be completely accrate in this situation of 'frame by frame' analysis. If it were cine film frames recording the start than I woud regard that as definitive evidence. I would trust the telemetry above the video.


Manipulation after manipulation is what F1 has become.
It is difficult to believe that anyone is clinging to the obvious falsehood of a legitimate start!
I like Bottas, I think he is a fine driver, but the start was a jump-start!
But there are so many manipulations going on.
It's... not good, like the media, difficult to believe anything they report.
Oh well.....


For me the most interesting thing was how Vet and Ricci noticed the Valteri's premature start, they reacted on the radio. If the two noticed it, that was a jump start indeed. Kind of 'legal', those sensors suck.


Bottas is clearly benefitting from his association with the Finnish-biased FIA and the Finnish-dominated F1 media.


@ Andrew M.....Hilarious! Bravo!


it's incredible how people still call foul play when the cars have all been fitted with a standard ecu for cases just like this

the telemetry won't lie, your eyes however will lie


Well, at least SV remains consistent in his denials following the last two GP's. Wonder if this'll trigger another FIA "investigation" in the matter?


It's already been confirmed that our eyes didn't lie at all.


Its incredible how peole call foul play when they dirve into someone under the safety car or nearly get mugged on the start.
Last race it was the brakes.
This race it was the accelerator.
I wonder what it will be at Silverstone, the clutch!? ROFL


It's a jump start in that he clearly guessed, rather than reacted. (Unless he has a time machine handy!) But not a "jump start" because of tolerances in the detection system. In short, he got damned lucky! 🙂


Yep, that's what I think happened. And that's racing. Had he been just a fraction quicker he'd have been given a drive-through for it, but races are won and lost in the margins and that's that.


Based on FIA info we saw on TV Valteri's reaction time was 0,204 sec, which is pretty average, for human standards.
In athletics jump start is considered if reaction time is below 0,1 sec, which is universally accepted as limit for human reaction time.
So, either everyone else in this race fall asleep, or Valteri indeed reacted waaay quicker than possible.
Something doesn't add up here. 🙂


Yep, reacted in .204 sec. The FIA uses .200 sec as the 'foul' point per their regs. So he was pretty close.... 4 thousands of a sec from being declared a jump start. Also cars are allowed to roll some... But we (FIA) won't tell you how much..... Incredibly lucky indeed....


Correction on my part....FIA declared 0,201 sec reaction time, which is right on the limit per their own regulations (0,200 would be a foul).
On the other hand German TV RTL did analysis of the footage after the race and this is what they've found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwrCDZnGevw
He indeed moved before lights went out, so reaction time was well bellow zero.
Now what?
Can FIA and FOM do something about it in retrograde? Or that would be admition they are at foul, and their own system is way off from being accurate.


You can't blame him though, he had to make a quick getaway before Seb could drive into him!


Exactly! lol
Vettel complaining, again! Is it going to be like this the rest of the season? Geez!


Another insightful post by Greg. Nailed it. That or I need to make an appointment with Spec savers. FIA decreed a nice "out" to avoid yet another FIA decision in favour of Ferrari.

Meantime, well done Valtteri for both the "flyer" and the win. Your contribution even as MB "New Boy" has already shaken up the old order. It is now at least a three horse race.

As the owner of an imaginary Power Station in the USA would say :~

Beware and be very afraid all those fan boys [ not to be confused with F1 enthusiasts ]. The Ice Man FINN #2 cometh.

He has bided his time very patiently and won valuable WCC points for his employers as well as himself at the expense of other teams and drivers. Ask his countryman ... Ice Man #1

Up next, SILVERSTONE. Full TV coverage on CH4 if I remember correctly. Good for them.:~

British Grand Prix
14th Jul

08:55 - Practice 1
12:55 - Practice 2

15th Jul

09:55 - Practice 3
11:55 - Qualifying

16th Jul

12:00 - Race


Hamilton's going to be stoked! Here's hoping for a trouble free weekend!


Technically No, but practically Yes... I think Danny summed it up best.
Daniel Ricciardo, who started the race from fifth place and finished third, said he thinks Bottas anticipated the lights and got lucky.

"The main thing was it [the reaction time] is positive. The lights were held for a long time, more than normal, there is always a window but it did seem longer. When you're there and your revs are high you're kind of waiting and waiting and for sure he went when the lights went out so I guess he got lucky.

"I did that in Formula 3 once and it was on the edge. I'm sure you react at that point, in theory it's not a natural reaction I don't believe but if it's plus he's safe. I don't believe he reacted to the lights. I commented saying Valtteri jumped so in the end he didn't jump but for sure he got a bit lucky. You can't take the win away from him he did well."


A standard TV frame is 4/1000 seconds. To our eyes, definitely a jumped start, but that's due to the lag on the videos - not a true reflection of what happened on the ground. Hence the FIA had to go to the data


30 frames per second is the refresh rate on standards but it was filmed faster than that.


So lag only happen to red light and not the tyre??


David Croft 9 July 2017: "And it's lights out and away we go!".

David Croft 16 July 2017: "And it's away we go and lights out!".


hilarious ))


Good one 😀


FIA have the data- data doesnt lie (as do viewers eyes, especially fans eyes). That was superb start-- perhaps never to be repeated.


The data doesn't lie - but we can't see the data - all we see is the output from the data. The reporting of the data is likely where issues are (if any). The fact that the red lights haven't been updated to LEDs would likely have an impact as the delay between the 'kill' signal arriving at the bulbs and the brightness of the bulbs decreasing enough to be visible is part of the problem. If the Race Director insisted in faster acting LEDS this wouldn't have been as obvious.


Agreed. Even if he did anticipate it the risk v reward involved makes it all the more impressive if you ask me.
With the variance in time applied differently to every start, seeing a driver pull it off the way Bottas did yesterday was refreshing.
I think also that Vettel's own poor start only highlighted and magnified how he viewed Valteri's getaway.


Well said👍


Right... the best view was the one from Bottas' cockpit looking up at the lights. The car lurches up while the light was still red but forward motion happens almost at the exact instant the lights go out. He got REALLY lucky, one microsecond earlier and he would have likely jumped it. I seem to remember that the cars park over a sensor when they line up on the grid box and depending on where they are front to back in the box he probably could have moved even just a little bit before the sensor would trigger that his car had left, hence the car clearly moving at or even slightly before the light went out yet the RT recorded was still positive.

In drag racing they call this shallow staging, you try and get the tires just far enough forward to hit the second staging beam, and then you let off the brake when the last yellow light turns on technically jumping the start but if you did everything right the car can actually move an inch or so and the back edge of the tire doesnt break the timing beam until the green light is already on so it records it as a clean start with an almost in-human fast reaction time. Dont know if there is that much margin in the system used in F1, there is clearly a little room though as evidenced today.


Finally someone that understands drag racing. Does the FIA? They made mention of a little movement allowed for clutch adjustment which is small but that they wouldn't let anyone know so they don't give one driver an unfair advantage over another. Put sensors across each white line and if it gets crossed too soon that a big red light comes on in front of turn one and automatically hands a 5 second drive thru to anyone who crosses the line too soon.

AND make those red lights out quicker.


The idea of a "human reaction" factor is silly. F-1 should do it drag racing style. The NHRA uses light beams but an in-track sensor system would work just as well. Let the car roll forward in the starting box far enough to light the "stage" light and give the driver a repeater of that light in his cockpit. A short distance ahead of that would be the foul sensor, far enough ahead to allow for some car jiggle as it is pit into gear. Then use the same F-1 light sequence and allow the drivers to "guess" all they want. If they trigger the foul sensor before the starting sequence lights go out, it's a jump start. Otherwise, it isn't. No "reaction time" factor, just let the timing and scoring computer judge if was it a jump start or not. If so, a drive through or in the case of a short pit lane, a stop and go in the pits, to be completed on the first lap would be appropriate.


“Today it was one of my best reactions to the light'. LoL, exactly Valterri, it was your reaction to the lights being on and not off 😉 Luck boy!


@red rob
As the old saying goes, " he who dares, wins".


I think he was being a bit cheeky with Sebastian. "Rubbing it in" a little. 🙂
Unless Bottas has a time machine on board, he didn't 'react' in any way - he just guessed, and got REAL lucky.

Mikko Makitalo

I just read comments from one jury member: It is true that the car moved before the red lights were off, 3/1000 seconds before, but the rules say that the tolarance is 10/1000 seconds, so this thing is now explained. Valtteri could not really have started in better way - it was a super start.


I suspect it was more down to luck than judgement, but it was within the tolerance laid down and that's that.


If this is the case, that the car did move before the actual start, but was within tolerances - that is exactly what the average fan does NOT WANT to hear. What the average fan wants to hear, is that if the car moved to early, it moved to early.


No the FIA won't say 10thousands before the lights go off. That's an issue I don't get? He didn't cross the line before the lights went out so what's the problem?

Just wait until next race. Someone will lay back off the line and try to get a running go start. I know they can't have that. So put sensors there and a com link to everyone's dash to make sure they are staged.


So, if everyone except me was parked waiting for the red lights to go off and I was last of the field but was the only one traveling at 100mph and crossed my white line right after the lights went off, I wouldn't be at fault but I would already be traveling at 100mph whereas everyone else was starting from a standing still position.
Get it????
If I was MaxV I would start parking my car right in front of the front wing of the next car in the line and I would make all my starts already traveling at 5 or 10mph. Cool stuff, huh??
I magnified it into ridiculousness so that you could properly understand my point.


Yeah, we've seen cars moving before the lights go out quite a few times, there have always been tolerances for this kind of thing and the stewards measure it, this is a total non-story as it stands.


Totally baffled 😀
As the referee corps seems indeed.
If the car moves 3/1000 BEFORE the reds off, then WHEN are measured the 2 tenths "Elite time of reaction" FROM ?!?
What I read from all their statements is : If you jump the start ( release cluch&brakes long before red kights go off and THE CAR IS MOVING), but lukilly, they ( red lights) go off after a short while (less than 10/1000s) it is OK - provided you are in the right team. ROFL.


2 tenths before the white line. So do the math from 3 thousands and that's FIA tolerance at least..


Seemed a good call to me. Reminds me of Prost's start at Monaco in 93 where I think he was unfairly penalized.

Tornillo Amarillo

“In today’s instance, Valtteri Bottas did not exceed this (very small) limit before the start was given.
Simply put: he made an exceptionally accurate and fortuitous judgement call, anticipating the moment the lights went out with great precision. Any movement prior to the moment the lights went out was within the tolerances allowed.

"As per art 36.13 of the sporting regulation either of the penalties under Articles 38.3c) or d) will be imposed for a false start judged using an FIA supplied transponder which must be fitted to the car as specified."



It was explained. There is a system on the starting grid under the tire that reacts to movement. You can start sliding the vehicle before triggering the system. That's exactly what Valtteri did. Risky, but he was able to pull it off.


I want to know something...i have been reading that he did jump start a little..but he was still inside his box when the lights where out...so why doesnt every driver leave a meter from the yellow line in his designated box and anticipate the lights out ..move before the others and gain so much from it? And here is a link for frame per frame: https://media.giphy.com/media/mrFmmvlvtfv1e/giphy.gif


Hi Elie. They can't anticipate the start in the way you suggest because they don't know exactly when the lights will go out. They'd often go too early and still get a jump start penalty. That would far outweigh the couple of tenths they'd sometimes gain by guessing perfectly right.


It's been a while, but I seem to remember hearing that it's when the front wing crosses the front of the grid box (white line) that counts, so if Bottas was parked a little back he would have had the car moving and just been on the white line when the lights actually went green.

If that's the case then it was indeed a good start, not a jump start.


Not exactly. If they lay back too far to get a running go that's unfair. If they do indeed have a system for that shouldn't it make everyone stage too? Why the mystery in the FIA s statement?


Surely it's when the wheels start moving that counts, not when they cross the box line. But we need clarification on this point. Let's convene in Paris and ask the FIA in person....


No need Vettel has already ruled!


Great, I'll book our usual table to Crazyhorse!


LKFE, beers are on me! 🙂


Brilliant idea Phil 🙂

Right, you get one answer, I'll get the other answer, and then we'll compare notes while the FIA changes their mind - Solved 🙂

In any case, I've just checked out some footage from the start - What's the big deal?

People need to get over this pronto. Man I miss the days where we used to talk about Vettel getting a red card for bumping Hamilton 😐


The current definition means that whatever it was that Bottas did, it was not defined as a jump start. End of.

Tornillo Amarillo

Sorry but FIA has no authority anymore to impose penalties after Baku, just warnings... 🙂


The rules allow a degree of movement in case the car judders on it's clutch, just like Bottas' Mercedes did today. That rule has been in places for decades, in the modern era of complete telemetry it's also incredibly easy to prove or disprove.


Looks like a jump start to me. I get that the FIA sensor is the only thing that determines whether there's been a jump start or not, but the visual definitely looks like it.

Can't recall what the penalties have been for jump starts of late ... 5 seconds? Bottas was up by 8 secs when Vettel stopped ... he could've pitted, taken the 5 sec penalty then, and still emerged ahead, so not sure that it would've made any difference in the end.


I think it's a drive-through.


Ericsson had one at AUT15, and he got a drive-through and 2 penalty points.

The stewards and FIA have now explained why Bottas' start was legal, so this is all now moot.


The last jump start we had was I think Maldo at Spa 2012. Do not recall the punishment ..( public flogging ??)

Jonathan deitrick

Ericsson @Austria 2015. Jump start drive thru penalty.


I think Maldonado probably crashed out before any penalty could be applied. I'm only half joking...


You know Vettel finished the race 0.6sec behind Bottas, right? So a 5sec penalty would put Bottas at serious difficulty of retaining his win. Your math is absolutely wrong


I think you may have missed the context of KRB's comment. Bottas would've served any penalty for a start infringement during the race, not with a time penalty added to his race time at the completion.


No it's not. I'm saying that Bottas was ahead by 8 secs before Vettel pitted. On lap 35, after Vettel pitted and re-emerged, the FOM graphic showed him 28.7s behind Bottas. Bottas would then have pitted, taken the 5 sec time penalty then (i.e. pit crew not working on the car), and then re-emerged ahead of Vettel. Vettel would then need to pass him for the win, and I'm saying that he likely wouldn't have been able to. My math is fine, thanks.


Er, what about the other 20-odd seconds lost from a pit stop?


@Number. Bottas reacts before light goes off. what is legal about this?


These is nothing illegal about doing things in the car before the lights go out. As long as the car doesn't move.


Probably from the same legal book that took care of overtaking under safety car and then deliberately steering into your competitors car was judged upon.
Bit rich to even squeak when in reality SV should just gobble some humble pie.


Precisely. You would think SV may have wanted to just lay low for at least a race rather than again trying to call out someone else and accuse them of something.


well you are basically asking the same question as I am.


Number, they dont show that. The footage Skyf1 showed his car moving at the same time.


Hmm, I really did saw a vid where he started moving slightly with lights on. Anyways, if he does move at the same time as lights go off (and i presure that was analyzed on super slo mo video), where did 0.2xx s reaction time go?


I'm with Vettel. Stewarding in the new era has not been top notch has it?


Indeed not, Vettel should have been DQed on the spot from Baku.


No I don't think Vettel should have been dq at Baku but I also think that fan favorites get treated better in all sports except bicycle sports haha.


Phil glass, judging a jump start is done by looking at the data from the transponder in the car. In the same way that deciding if a car has been speeding in the pit lane or not, it is not a subjective decision, it either happened or it didn't. In my view, if your start was so good that the stewards investigated it, yhen you have delivered the best stsrt possible.


Thanks You. End of story....


Clearly Bottas did NOT jump the start, the reaction time of 0.2-seconds proves that, end of story.
It's worth pointing out - given this happened on the same day as the London Anniversary Games athletics - that track athletes are considered to have had a valid start so long as their reaction time is no less than 0.1-seconds.
Also worth saying that track athletes are reacting to the 'sound' of a start gun, compared to F1 drivers reacting to the 'lights', and light travels faster than sound meaning that top-level sportsman should in theory be able to react to light faster than sound.

Tornillo Amarillo

Or pretty much guessing the start and after that measuring was OK... this time.


Nice idea Mark but sadly it's been proven that the mind process sound quicker than light scarily there is a couple of tenths delay in processing sight. That being said I agree with your first point about Bottas not jumping the start and am wondering what the definition of a jump start is because I suspect it is about the car moving and not about when the driver tells it to move


Ah, good point Swiss Matt - hadn't considered that...guess I get a false start on my assumption 😀 haha


...what's even more amazing is how the brain takes inputs from vision sound and touch, which all take differing lengths of time to process, and matches them up to give you a coherent experience of the outside world.


The question is how this 0.2 seconds reaction time are measured given that the onboard video shows the car moving while the red lights are still on.
About the audio/visual reaction time, some studies seem to show that audio reaction time in the brain is faster than visual reaction (8-10ms vs 20-40).


" he rejoined behind Raikkonen but the Ferrari driver on worn tyres made a mistake "

That is the unrealistic view, or shall we say, uncharitable. KR"s tyres had done over 40 laps. He should never have been left out that long if Ferrari wanted him to be part of their plan.
It was Ferrari who made the mistake not Kimi.
Too much spicy pasta.


Too much spicy pasta...............and favouritism! Or in my best Latin-Roman "favoritismo!"

Always has been a "chosen son" culture in Latin and Hispanic lands, though - Professor Prost had preferential treatment over Nigel Mansell, Eddie Irvine and Rubihno did Schumi's dirty washing, Felipe Baby was hung out to dry Fernando Alonso's clothes and now Kimi is Vettel's lapdog!


I took Vettel's comment as "unbelievable start". I am sure many were thinking how it could even be possible! But as the stewards said, it was legal. So, for me case closed there.

And Bottas being a title contender, he has to do his talking on track rather than off. In Williams he did show his potential, but at the same time he was too close to drive himself out of a top drive with lack lasted moves. He is lucky now, thanks to Rosberg. So, this is his opportunity. I want to see if he can overtake Hamilton on track. We all know that the Mercedes used team order this year to let Hamilton pass Bottas. But will they do the same if they were driving 1-2. I'd like to think they won't, but we will see. It will be interesting if he beats Lewis, then finds himself out of contract with Mercedes. That will be sad. It is still a possibility as he doesn't have a drive next year yet.


Ferrari left Kimi out to dry in Austria, to try to slow down Bottas for Vettel. They've done this before, and will continue to do it.

Kimi doesn't believe he is a no. 2 driver, but Mark Hughes has pretty much said that Vettel has no. 1 status written into his contract. Here's the race report:


... and the comment thread where he makes it clear that Vettel has no. 1 status written into his contract:



My second link wasn't linking to the particular comment, so here it is with this link:


Felix Taggert

Bottas is showing us how good a driver he is. The more victories he has the more confidence he will have. But he still needs a few more to get to the level of Hamilton though i think Mercedes should retain him for another year and beyond. For me the break issues affected Hamiltons qualifying and his position no doubt affected his race and final placement. Note that all the other drivers are not passengers. Kudos to stroll also


Bottas is showing how good Rosberg was. And yes how good the car is too.


He is showing how good the car is


@ So since it was Mercedes was on question and Charlie, oh means stewards said legal so its legal for you???? thats funny as all of you were crying on how Vettle not being penalized further


I take it as your comment was directed to someone else, can't be me surely. Anyone seen my posts would tell you what I think of the wheel banging incident.


Vettel did a move that in public,would have landed him in court,possibly lock up too.
Short ,selective memories here


It is a closed track, so no public street law. There was no bodily harm, and no obvious damage. With the overloaded courts i bet the judge would have said: 'Really? I have better things to do.'

Max driving into a curve where two cars are battling already, perhaps a case.

At atheletics it is the irritating movement which counts. Cars are allowed to move a little to prevent damage.
But what i want to know: in a time before telemetry and transponders it would have been a head start?
Does anyone know what the signal processing and refresh time of a transponder and telemetry is?
Is it a direct received radio signal or are their relays involved?


Can you really talk SA? Your take on any ruling is always favourable to Ferrari. If it was Vettel you'd be saying it was a great start, or if it was Vettel getting hit up the back by Hamilton in Baku, you'd be calling for a season ban like aveli.

You can't accuse anyone of being a blind fanboy, because you are one.


S andretti, so do we accept stewards decisions or not? I was happy to go along with their judgement after Baku, including the part where they completely exonerated Lewis. Were you?


Formula zero, Seb said quite clearly he thought Valterri had illegaly jumped the start, and when told that the reaction timd was 0.2 seconds said "I dont believe that".


As my psychologist says "just because you believe something doesn't mean it's true"



You can understand Dan and Seb initially questioning Valtteri's start because it looked "too good" but you're right while Dan let it go Seb was still doubting the Steward's decision when interviewed by Natalie Pinkham in the press pen post-race. He doesn't like to let things go?


Adrian, yes it's understandable as it certainly looked too good to be true, but the data says it was ok, and thats that. Will Seb ever learn to keep his trap shut? And people accuse Lewis of courting controversy.....


I take "I don't believe it" comment as a complement. I watched the start on YouTube just then,m. In naked eyes it was a jump start to me too. But I agree with stewards decision as they have clearer data and more close up shots. So, my initial thinking of the jump start is also a complement. In fact, it was the best start I have ever seen by any driver.


Its because Vettel thinks whatever he believes is nothing but the truth. He needs recalibrating but I am afraid all watching F1 are already recalibrating Vettel's image and not for the good reasons.


well, Vettel was right in the end wasnt he. FIA confirmed that Bottas moved before the lights went off however it was within the distance permitted.


No Vettel wasn't in the right. He just didn't understand the rules but who does.


@ Dasmaven...'all watching F1 etc etc' In the words of Samuel Goldwyn, famous Hollywood film maker, 'include me out'.


Not all


Yap , he did , sensors have tolerances. But video footage show realtime movement


Sensors do. But the cars have GPS accurate time, and you have the telemetry which shows what the clutch position and pedal positions were. The TV captions showed reaction times and that would have to be based on the release of the clutch not when the car began to move.

Autosport has this [i]
The FIA has explained, however, that some movement before the lights go out is allowed because of the need occasionally for drivers to make adjustments to their clutch ... Such a system has been in place for 20 years and has been accepted by all competitors.
An FIA spokesman said that any movement observed on Bottas' car between the five lights being on and them going out was within this allowed limit - which is why the Finn was not deemed to have done anything wrong.[/i]

It appears they look at the movement before the lights change and how quickly the clutch dropped.


I don't think it the sensors will trip unless the front wheels are on the ground. I thought I saw Bottas get a wheelie.


Nice reply
End o day,no one can be surprised that SV is upset.
His competitive spirit is overboard.
Next thing we know,he'll be feigning a moment to block the track to other competitors qualifying times.
Thats what excessive competitive spirits do.
As we all know


Now, swap the 2 Merc around so it was Hamilton, not Bottas on pole with the super start... lol... what's the chances of then hearing some vintage Vettel radio rants even after receiving the FIA warnings :)... Fantastic 🙂

Tornillo Amarillo

Editor, if if if FIA found he jumped, can disqualified? Vettel won? Hamilton in P3?
What are the precedents? Work to dooooooo!! 😉


I can't imagine any sensor used in F1 having a "tolerance". That's hilarious!


Every single sensor ever made has a tolerance. The higher the quality the better the tolerance, but it will never be 0. To that value you have to add in the propagation delay caused by the wiring. Then you have to factor in the scan rate of the monitoring electronics. It takes a finite time to measure the changes from the sensor.
This all adds up to a plus/minus value for the sensor system.
Nothing hilarious about it just good old physics.


Your exactly right electricity moves just a little slower than the speed of light.

That would make a huge difference if GPS is used for this.. GPS is not great on the z axis either.

Surely sensors for that would be on and in the track.


Thank you, I think I get it. Five gold stars. Anyway it was deemed Bottas luckily nailed the start, but I appreciate the information fully. It's very, very interesting.

Tornillo Amarillo

And also unreliably video footage can "advance" images I imagine... 🙂

Stephen Taaylor

He's allowed to move technically - in setting his clutch as long as it within the sensor tolerances. Bottas took advantage of a niche within the rules.


sensors have tolerances.

So, the folk that time these missiles down to a thousandth of a second, have vague sensors? One should think that the boffins who design, build and adjust V6 engines that rev to 15k rpm would give the FIA some technical advice.


agree. sensors have tolerances but the human eye can still be the best sensor. Bottas "jumped the start" for sure (he reacted before the lights went out, which is a jump start because you are supposed to react only after the lights go out). He was audacious and the sensor's tolerance gave him a chance. He got away with it. probably if he tries that another 99 times the sensor will get him.


The human eye is Indeed a marvel but let's not get carried away. It can be fooled quite easily. Otherwise there would be no magician around.
Regardless of the inaccuracies of the measuring system it is the same for all. Nothing stopping Seb doing what Bottas did.
Who is this guy anyway that challenges the stewards and the data. He used to have a exaggerated sense of entitlement at RB now at Ferrari he thinks he is positively running the show.


@ FIA Licker, all electronics have error limits. question is did they considered calibrations of it before race?? highly unlikely.

Human eye tolerance vs lights is Zero. but stewards have Merc flag lights in their eyes

Stephen Taylor

The movement was right on the lights going out. No penalty


This is as good a read of the race as you can get. These few milliseconds count for a lot of points for Bottas. I have a feeling that many will contest the race management reading of it. I am sure the equipment they have on hand can give them that certitude. If the layout of Silverstone plays more to the Ferrari team as it is, the addition of the new spec engine they are to bring there should see them winning, yes?
I don't believe it is going to be that easy for them of course, but I will carry that hope till then. Marc


Seb really needs to learn to keep his trap shut doesnt he? Questioning the stewards again?! Wind your neck in Seb, or the team might have to make you a gag!


Are you not misreading it? I think he was just asking for clarification, as he saw Bottas move before the lights. In all likelihood he was no more familiar with the arcane jumped start rules than many of the F1 fans who had the same question.


Redline, i dont think so, hecsaid repeatedly that he thought Valterri jumped the start, why not just let it go after the race like Danny Ric did?


@ TimW

You might want to read the transcript of the press conference; your assertion that "he won't let it go" is factually incorrect - its right there in black and white, and not a matter for debate. And as a matter of fact DR agreed with Vettel almost verbatim...


Vettel ."from my point of view he jumped the start, I was sure that he did, it looked like it from the inside of the car. Its not for me to judge at the end of the day, probably it was a bit late, its quite tricky then to keep standing still, but yeah I think it was ok, he had a bit of wheel slip later on, but overall I thought it was a good start".
Host, "Valterri's reaction time was point two zero one"
Vettel. "Dont believe that".
So although he does say that it was ok, he also says it wasn't and that he doesnt believe the data from the stewards! Nice and clear then....


@TimW ... with all due respect, that type of cherry picking is a form of confirmation bias.

You missed this part of SV's statement: "I had a strong belief at the time that he jumped the start. Turned out he didn’t, so I’m guessing that there is a reason to be believe he didn’t but I can’t believe that his reaction time was 0.2. That would be normal and in my point of view his reaction was inhuman..."

The "turned out he didn't" bit is pretty clear, don't you agree?

Furthermore, immediately after the statement SV made, DR said this: "Can I elaborate. Just to put my two cents in. As Valtteri said, the main thing is it was positive. The lights were held for a long time, more than normal. ... For sure, he went, but the lights went out but I guess he got lucky. I did it in Formula 3 before, once. Yeah, it was on the edge, I’m sure you react, but at that same point the lights went out. In theory it’s not a natural reaction I don’t believe, but as Valtteri said if it’s plus then he’s safe. But I don’t believe he reacted to the lights"

I think that DR explanation is clearer than SV's, probably as he is native english speaker, but its clear that they are saying the same thing: that VB moved before the lights, so he was not reacting to the lights, but anticipated them. Under the current rules, his movement was within the system tolerances, so it was not a jumped start.

I'm can't know if you missed those parts of the press conference unintentionally ... (or perhaps intentionally?) ... but with the complete information, the situation is "nice and clear then...." 🙂


Tim, on the contrary, I want drivers like Sebastian, Lewis, Max, fernando speak their mind and be themselves- it adds lot more character to sport.. No?


Gravity, im not without sympathy for that position, but when a driver is already on warnings for saying silly things, wouldnt it be wiser to drop the subject?


Are you contending that Vettel was be serious or accusatory? I thought his comment in the cool down room was light-hearted disbelief. It seemed that he and RIC were just having a dig at Bottas?


Lkfe, a jump start is cheating, Seb said he thought Valterri jumped the start, therefore....


Tim, did you just wheel bump me?
Now you're getting the red mist!


Lkfe, just a little love tap, do I need to sit on the naughty step for ten seconds to think about what I did?


Ricciardo thought same as well just saying.


I was wondering if SV is not technically bringing the sport into disrepute by directly contradicting the ruling? I wouldn't be running my suck like that if I were sitting on nine penalty points and had just been made to eat a giant humble pie...


Ctp, I wouldn't go that far, but it is seriously unwise to keep banging on about it.


This is another unfair comment from a Merc lover. Can you remember the last time a driver started dead on the lights going out? (meaning the driver has reacted BEFORE the lights go out). Probably never happened before, without getting a penalty for a false start. Vettel is obviously going to question it as anyone else starting on the front row would. Sportmen question everything. It's what being a winner is all about. There's no way the reaction was 0.2 of a second. It was more like 0.02 and I don't care what the sensors say. Sometimes you just have to put rivalries aside and call it like it is Tim.


"There's no way the reaction was 0.2 of a second. It was more like 0.02 and I don't care what the sensors say."

If you stick your fingers in your ears, stamp your feet and shout la la la at the top of your voice, it's come true...well, in your mind anyway.


Red rob. It doesnt matter if anyone has ever dont it before, it doesnt matter what anyone thinks, what matters is the data. The data says he did not jump the start, therefore he did not jump the start. Im just pointing out that Seb should respect that decision instead of continuing to question it long after the race had finished, especially with his curent disciplinary position.


I wish a professional of the board of weights and measures would present the data: the probable reaction time was 0,2s with a tolerance of 1s to the more or less.
Their is a difference if a signal is received directly, or runs over relays because there are radio shadows. The failure of professional GPS is an inch ?
Data is read 100 times a second ?
All failures and tolerances add. In my studies in applied maths i learned to calculate with an interval of numbers to have worst and best case scenarios.
In dubio pro reo would mean that all tolerances and measuring failures would be in favour of Bottas. But I really want to know about how many milliseconds error tolerance in favour of Bottas we are talking about.


Gag? Really...
Ricci said the same, let's youtube it... https://youtu.be/tken_aR8bD8
Marcchione: “I am happy with what Sebastian is doing, just in case anybody is wondering.”


So apparently this movement of the car is within the tolerances set by FOM to allow for clutch adjustments. I can't tell if the car is actually rocking, or if it's just one movement forward on a loop. In either case, if BOT was finding the clutch bite point, and that became part of his full start sequence when he anticipated the lights going out, where does the 0.2 sec reaction time come from?

The reaction time must be measured from the point the lights go out, to the point the driver starts activating the clutch and throttle (rather than actual movement of the car), but it seems BOT was already in the process of activating the clutch as he was rolling that little bit forward. So how then is there any reaction time at all?

I can understand the tolerances needed at the start for the drivers to adjust the clutch, but the reaction time measurement is not well explained. At least I haven't found one yet.


Alan, but Danny Ric didnt keep banging on about it like Seb did, and doesnt have a history of his mouth getting himself into trouble.



Two consecutive races now. Hey Seb believe it or not the Stewards are there for a reason!


Adrian, pointlessly antagonising the stewards seems a strange strategy....


Danny Ric not in title fight!


Rockie. Tell him that!

Tornillo Amarillo

is Vettel getting somehow delusional with test-braking and now with jump-start...? (delusional is holding beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, according with definitions).


VET <==== 20 pts < LEW < 15 pts <=== BOT
LEW is closer to be a prey of BOT that a predator to VET, in the WDC.
Kimi was very ethical when Bottas overtook him.
Since BOT came from outside, RAI on very worn tires, could have braked very late and locked the wheels to - deliberately - crash into BOT.
Even more considering they have a grudge.
Telemetry would show an error of judgement of KImi, but a racing incident.


One driver has batted 4 competitive teammates and beaten them all in their seasons as teammates, and is still beating Bottas, while the other has only beaten ageing uncompetitive teammates.And his first encounter with a younger hungry teammate delivered him a serious beating. Can't wait to see vettel paired with a competitive teammate.


You use VET for Vettel, BOT for Bottas. Why do you use Lew for Hamilton. Surely it should be HAM?


Hamilton comes up when you type Ham. Vet Bot doesn't work.

Who cares Hamilton may be a better racer than anyone but not better at drag racing than Vettel or Bottas. That can make a big difference.


In other words, Kimi could have done a Bottas on Bottas.
Could have.... but didn't of course.
It isn't the kind of game Kimi would play.


I was hoping Vettel would do a Bottas on Bottas and overtake at the finish line


This here is Vettel's issue: he believe he knows better than anyone else, even the stewards. It's the same thing that got him in trouble last race, but if anything he benefits from it.


Seb's right. Valtteri's reaction time was much less than 0.2s.

The FIA measures something other than reaction time, which I think is fine. But it calls it "reaction time", which isn't fine. And on this occasion it's caused a lot of confusion.


Take your fan-boy blinkers off. It was a legitimate question by Vettel, as the car moved before the lights went out. He wanted clarification, simple as that.


It was a legitimate question to ask from the cockpit. Where he becomes unreasonable is when he says "I don't believe it" when told in the post-race press conference that the stewards ruled it was a legal start.

Take your blinkers off.


@KRB - If you think Vettels "I don't believe it" comment was unreasonable, what do you make of Ricciardo's comment "In theory it’s not a natural reaction I don’t believe" in the same conference?

Yet you apparently only take issue with Vettel's statement... Tell me again why yours isn't a blinkered view?


Anyone knows better than the stewards! Seriously, it's a running joke how many wrong calls they make?


This wasn't the stewards opinion...it's hard data from a calibrated piece of electronic equipment. Come on! I agree with KRB, it's time SV learned that screaming down the radio about how everyone else is at fault is really childish and won't get him anywhere. It is actually like listening to my children!


Red Rob, just because the stewards didnt make the decision you wanted them to, doesn't mean they made the wrong decision....


You mean like in Baku where Vettel should have been DQed on the spot???


LT - I don't think an instant disqualification was merited as Vettel truly believed he was brake tested, which for him was a dangerous move by Hamilton, hence his reaction. The stewards also had to investigate. I think overall they got it right, but can understand why some don't think it's enough.


I'll take stewards investigating incidents, deliberating on them, and deciding on any punishment, instead of drivers deciding for themselves that they've been fouled, and meting out punishment with their cars.

More Stewie Stewards, and less Vigilante Vettels, please & thank you. 😀


Krb, I would take the drivers over internet 'experts'....


Once again, on the edge of the chair for most part of the race, not because the race itself was all that exciting but, in my case, how long could the underpowered Red Bull of Ricciardo stay out of the clutches of the all singing all dancing Hamilton and Raikonnen, both with superiorc car speed. I do believe that the Mercedes had a 33KPH advantage on the straights. For me Ricciardo's race was a standout with the pass of the day on Raikonnen at turn three and racing hard with Hamilton for the last ten or so laps. Even with the superior Mercedes, with the wick turned up for full beanz, he failed to put a pass on Ricciardo. DR showed his class and his ability to take Hamilton on and beat him on merit, fair and square, mano a mano. Likewise Bottas drove a superb race and he is now pressuring Hamilton as a real title possibility plus an extended contract. Vettel drove an excellent race too and he was a likely winner as well. I do feel for Verstappen. Wrong place/ wrong time and who knows how he would've gone had he not been punted off. Shame, but he'll bounce back. Another standout was the Haas of Grosjean who was grinning 'like a loon' in the interview pen. He did very very well with a 6th place. The Sky team were at it again, trying to put spin on Hamilton's race and trying to infer that the Baku bungle was a precursor. Rubbish. So onwards to Silverstone and hopefully another great race at a great circuit. Can DR extend his podium run...5 in a row now? If you'd suggested that he'd get a podium today,completely on merit, i would've said no.At Silverstone then, let's wait and see but i will hazard a guess and say, unlikely.


Ricardo is hard for anyone to pass but to be fair Hamilton really only got one chance to pass as Vettel and Bottas. Neither driver made a mistake.

On a track with a couple of longer drs zones it gets easier. These 2017 cars make getting within 1 second pretty tough.


I'll drink to that!


@ Sars...the point is, what will you drink?


Considering Ramornie and Cup Day are upon us this week Kenneth I imagine pretty much everything will get tasted at various stages!


Nonsense ,watched Ricardo saying their car was surprisingly fast here.He said vettel could not disappear from his sight.


Lewis through 3rd away by racing air when he came out of the pits after his stop. A smart racer he is not. If he was he would have more championships.


8th to 4th ain't bad. Smart is getting a spot with an undercut or over cut racing air instead.


Hello, what a ridiculous comment. If Lewis had been any slower on his out lap Ferrari would have pitted Kimi who would have exited the pits still ahead of Lewis. Ferrari said over the radio to Kimi to not bother coming in as Lewis would have been ahead.


"DR showed his class and his ability to take Hamilton on and beat him on merit, fair and square, mano a mano."

Yeah, all Ricciardo needs is a gearbox failure for Hamilton, a few unearned grid slots up the road and a c. 6 second head start and he can beat him fair a square! Shooeys all round!


You sound fairly reasonable and even tempered today Andrew M!


Don't I always 😮


Kenneth. The Mercedes had a 33kph advantage?! You need to stop listening to Clarkes4wheel drift who likes to make stuff up as he goes along. The accuurate data from the FIA shows that the fastest car through the speed trap in the race was.....Daniel Ricciardo on 336.4kph, Lewis in the "all singing all dancing" Mercedes was only fifth fastest with 333.2kph! I realise this boring old data kind of rains on your parade, but it is what it is.
I would agree with you that Dan's pass on Kimi was a contender for pass of the race, but I'm a little confused as I have read previously on here that shoving competitors off yhe circuit on a corner exit was a disgrace to ghe sport and should invoke a penalty from the stewards.


imply, not infer.


What are you insinuating?


Is anyone else bothered by Lewis asking for help in closing stages? I don't remember him asking for help in such a manner.


KR was left out on those purple tires to hold everyone up which he did.


Well he won his first WDC that way by his teammate cheating and holding Glock up


What about that would be cheating? Being ridiculous is totally your choice.


He was asking whether he could use extra engine modes, not "I've no idea what to do, help me!"


Why would you be bothered? Don't understand.


The Mercedes call it a perfect start, the FIA it seem to agree with that assessment , perhaps in the same opinion as when VB 77 ( T-Boned ) Raikkonen in Baku two weeks a go they call it a racing incident . I was & still believe there is no such thing as perfection, should you believe that there is such thing, well you can tell that to the birds and the bee's but not to Gogomobil.,in mean time we should call Bottas Mr Teflon, it seems his driving ethics & consequent results can't stick to him. He's a driving perfection !


What else would you expect from a Road Rage German !!!! Next thing he'll say is the Mercs are run on heavy water ZHAT zee Germans owned 😄


There is a guy from Perth saying the same, he is Italian, 3rd on podium today. Interesting enough, Baku story brought more celebrities in paddock today just because of the story.


Alan,celebs in the paddock ?
What did they bring to the show ?
Too American that bs
The celebs are in the cars,and in the pit boxes
The "celebrities";
They're there,sponging the exposure,like parasites.
Celebs indeed


Terry, agreed. It was about hype, that by the way was just too much about Baku event.


To be honest I assumed it wasn't a jumpstart but later I was able to pause my TV immediately upon his movement and saw that the lights were still clearly on. After that i was sure he'd get a penalty.. I couldn't tell if the lights were a fraction less bright as they were turning off.. but the freeze frame looked clearly on to me. Just have to trust the judgement I guess but I'm sure someone with video skills will be able to create a video telling all.


using video evidence in this case would be misleading,

There could be multiple variances such as rolling shutters on cameras, and progressive scan on TV can mean image on top of the frame is not at the same instant as on bottom.

You have to rely on stewards data and close the case.

That said, the time between 5 lights on and lights off should be random, so that no one can preempt it.


Hmm,good point Cheesy
So,where are you going with it then ?
I know conspiracy is an indictable offence 🙂


Haha.. his head rest must be loosely attached for his transgression, and all shall be forgiven.


Here is your proof of jump start from multiple sources:
(youtube dot com) /watch?v=E9hUuOV-CyA&feature=youtu.be
(twitter dot com) /echelonbrother/status/884025698222034945


As mentioned.. many videos showing slow mo of the start.. he moves clearly before the lights go out. Hopefully there'll be a clarification. Totally unfair in my opinion. Hope these YouTube links are allowed.


And another.. you can pause asy 0:01.. tires already moving, lights still on.



The tv showed images from Bottas' camera car: that Bottas front wheels move forward fraction of a second, about a tenth, before the lights went out.
Technically this is probably within the tolerances of the sensors so he got away with it.
But ask any racing driver in any formula and they will tell you they would consider this a jump start: simply because they know it is not humanly possible to start moving exactly as the lights go out. If you achieve that you have indeed made a jump start (you reacted before the lights went out).
You are just super lucky that you are within the sensor tolerances.


Maybe that is why Vettel said "I don't believe it" after hearing from FAI it was not a jump start as it was so lucky to achieve this


From online clips it looks to me that Bottas did not release the clutch pedal before lights went off. That would be consistent with telemetry showing 0.2 secs.

But... car was rolling before lights went off. Is rolling start allowed in F1?


VB's start was just so close that stewards have to ask for help to the physicians in order to apply the general theory of relativity, space/time curving.

When he started red light LEDs were already turned off, however light was still traveling to them, this is what confused Seb )


Come on another whinging moment from the Coughing German .


WHat about Ricciardo. He said the same as Vettel.


To be fair, DR mentioned it once...SV was still banging on and on about it on the podium. I think that's the point.


Ricciardo was asked once. Vettel several times.


You'd expect some of that Red Bull to rub on from a fellow ex team member. Bottas had a great blast at the lights. Vettel was too busy being hypnotised by the Red Bull Statue.
But I guess Bottas had the wings👼


Only one thing can be said to Vettel "Don't Believe Everything You Think". But I think he is using this quasi incident as a deflection shield against his negative publicity in Baku. He trying to bait the Media to focus on other things and subliminally suggesting FIA was wrong here in Austria as well as in Baku. But nobody is buying into Vettel.


@ Dasmaven....nonsense. You are again trying to make out that the 'majority' share your view and that is not so. I for one don't buy that .


Is Ricciardo trying to deflect too? Because he had the same thought as Vettel.


Ricciardo, I don't know...i mean it doesn't seem awfully impressive, because whatever both Ric and Vettel felt about Bottas happened more in their peripheral vision, which was never going to be 100% accurate. Maybe, Ric had his best start yet and he couldn't believe Bottas bettered it. But for sure Vettel was overtly chirpy about it...and even defended his point of view in the post race interview. He was looking for alternative facts aka his own opinions which he thinks are more accurate than telemetry data at FIA's disposal...but kudos to Vettel for providing all the entertainment these days.


@dasmaven - actually DR echoed SV's views almost verbatim in the post race conference. The transcripts are there for anyone to see. My own interpretation is that they are doubting the reaction time rather than the start being illegal (jumped), and that is quite consistent with VB's car moving before lights out. VB got lucky that he moved early, but within the system detection tolerances. He anticipated the lights rather than react to them - that is the point that SV and DR are making. So the start was perfectly legal, but wholly fortuitous.


Vettel should stop whining already. FIA has clarified after the race that little movement is allowed between last red light coming on and all lights going off so drivers can fine tune the clutch.


Vettel was "whining" before the FIA clarification...!

harvey bushell

He did get a perfect start and *may* have jumped by a few milliseconds but even if he didn't jump the start he still would have been well ahead of Vettel into turn 1 so I see no reason to get particularly upset about it.


So Vettel continues to be incredibly unsportsmanlike. Even if he's right, to directly challenge the result of the Steward's investigation just demonstrates a sense of privilege that he doesn't deserve.

Maybe it's a halo effect of driving for Ferrari, who generally get away with more than other teams would.


When the duck was last time Ferrari got away? Mercedes and HAM do it all the way for last 5 years.



Agreed! Perhaps having a go at the Stewards (again) he should reflect upon being beaten to pole by Valtteri in qually. Game set and match right there.


"Maybe it's a halo effect of driving for Ferrari, who generally get away with more than other teams would."

But he didn't get away with a jump-start now did he. So much for FIA favouring Ferrari. Congrats to VB.


I disagree, why would anyone be a puppet for anyone? Just because some human steward decided a certain way Vettel should shut up and accept it? If you believe something stand up and say it, don't shy away into the shadows. Every person has a right to an opinion and a right to express that opinion.


Poor sportsmanship from Vettel to accuse Bottas of jump starting when he had a perfect start. The car didn't move from the line until when lights went out.

Vettel's and Ferrari's starts have been very poor compared to previous seasons and it has cost them multiple wins this season. Instead of blaming the better driver of the day, he should focus on improving the starts and Q3 qualifying laps as he loses out on pole very frequently. When margins are that small, its always the driver error.
This is something which media can point out instead of blowing Baku issue out of proportion. If it was Hamilton that Vettel accused of jump starting, that would have been scandal of the century for english media folks.


Not sure what you were watching but the car 100% moved even if it was a tiny bit.


Another example of dodgy FIA data...


Reasonably entertaining race although for some reason we always appear to be short of those 1 or 2 laps at the end which would make for a really fantastic finish.
Bottas: has clearly gained confidence, it 's even apparent in his adressing the press. Cockpit view actually showed minute movement while the red lights were still on, he then stopped and got clean way after 0.2s. WDC material? Don't think so.
Hamilton: like a few others, struggled on the ultrasofts. Telling that after his challenge in the penultimate lap he could not come close to Ricciardo again in the final lap. That's some difference with last year...
Vettel: apparently completely unaffected by the recent investigation since he kept complaing about Bottas' alleged jump start, right onto the podium. No keeping low profile for him, you've got to admire it! Quiet race, just 1 or 2 laps shy of a win.
Raikkonen: deployed as a buffer to hold up Hamilton by the looks of it. Didn't pull that off, also instantaneously overtaken by Ricciardo. Not impressive again.
Ricciardo: very strong race, at full pace to boot. The small gap to the two front runners was encouraging, his defending against Hamilton's DRS attack cool and collected, just outbraking Lewis in the end. His confidence is growing by the race, he even beat Max in Q3 for a change. Kuddos, mate! (Glad to see the shoey foiled though, this has to stop.)
Verstappen: why mention him here? He's dropped to 7th in the WDC... but to all intents and purposes he should be in the top 6 mix or better. Despite the odd one out quali defeat against Ricci he is still dominating his team mate in every single FP and quali. This a pretty fascinating season, but just imagine Max being allowed to finish and spicing things up even more! You cannot even say he's having a bad season. Apart from the first few races he's having a non-season. His streak of incredible bad luck just continued today, as if it's business as usual. No clumsiness at the start, but another technical failure!... The clutch this time, already apparent during the warming up lap. When he finally got going he eased into turn 1 on the outside so as not to be hit, only to be taken out by Alonso's car, compliments of Daniil Kvyat. Don't think he is furious, James, but Marko may be.
Kvyat: lame excuses like not seeing Alonso in front of him, blocking tyres, etc. but at the end of the day he was responsible for taking two fellow drivers out.


Quite sad to see Max under so much pressure of expectations unrealistically set by media. FFS guys he won a single race and the expectations are too high. I think this pressure is getting to him, spinning off the track in Q3 and stuffing up the start. Unfortunately he was shunted at the corner, so had no chance to recover this one. He needs to learn from Issues like that with with Vettell at Baku, Kimi at Austria last year, and the massive corner cut at Mexico last year against Rossberg. He was shown how it is done by Ricciardo at Malaysia last year, wheel to wheel and can learn from these experiences as he matures as a driver. His bursts of speed are great, and when he learns to finish races he will undoubtedly move up the standings.


Yeah people are loosing sight of the cool thing in Austria was that 4 cars from 3 different teams were so close to each other and also doing similar lap times.

I'm done with the Bottas start thing and I think he might pretty damn good.


Yes we are always shy a lap or two to an epic finish or battle for years. Maybe they should consider adding 2-3 laps to all the races!


J: nicely said, like a poetry, sort of.
Lemwil: I watched Kvyat accident a few times, despite Alonso saying it was basic, I felt sorry for Kvyat and don't blame him too much. It was impossible to react once squeezed in that tight space.


For the record, on Kvyat: it was soon pretty clear Verstappen's clutch problem was a showstopper by itself. So being taking out by Kvyat's action didn't matter much. Unless it was fate telling Max "in case you survived the clutch problem we still had this in store for you..."


Lemwil, i know Max is your boy, but you can hardly say he outperformed Ricciardo this weekend. His Q3 performance was shocking. 3 sets of new Ultras and he made a mistake on every run, culminating in putting it in the gravel on the last run.
There's not doubting Max's talent, but it takes more than talent to succeed.
His run of luck will turn around, and he will develop more consistency.
Not sure if you saw the pre-race interviews. When he was asked about Ferarri i thought his body language was very telling -in stark contrast to his father, who flat out denied Max was going anywhere next year. I think Jos might have to school Max up on his poker face. His "tell" is rather obvious!


My formulation was accurate: "Despite the odd one out quali defeat against Ricci he is still dominating his team mate in every single FP and quali."
This observation covers all pre-race sessions of say the last two months. So, I did not claim Max outperformed Daniel this weekend. I just noted one exception does not change the persistent trend. And of course, the exception is likely to occur in Q3: shortest time span, highest pressure. Daniel flew off last time, Max this time.

As for the Ferrari story, things are not what they seem... These matters have hardly been touched upon at JAonF1, but there's been some ugly goings on lately. Here goes: a couple of days ago The Independent (British paper) published a story Max Verstappen allegedly signed a pre-season contract with Ferrari. Now these stories will appear every now and then but this caused major rumblings at Red Bull. The Verstappens were asked to explain. Now they (read Jos) may have their own lines, but The Independent is not one of them. But there is a line connecting the Sainz family with this: Sainz senior has connections at Spanish sports paper "Marca" which published this and used connections at The Independent to have it published there. Helmut Marko - think of him what you like - was livid and told off both father and son in no uncertain terms. He was having none of this kind of rabble rousing and pulling underground levers at the expense of the Verstappens and team spirit at Red Bull. The word is the two of them went outside heads down, not exactly the body language of men who are being unfairly accused.
So... when the Verstappens were asked about the Ferrari connection in the interview you mention, I can perfectly fathom Jos firmly denying it, whereas Max probably thought "Here we go again with that Ferrari rumour" and just smiled.
It's not Max who wants to leave, it's Carlos.


Lem, I'm not debating that your formulation is accurate, i'm just saying that it doesn't mean much in the context. Counting up all the FP1,2 and 3's and the Q1's and 2's creates a fairly meaningless stat. Both drivers have different approaches -Max clearly pushes hard from the get go, but Daniel seemingly builds his pace up in a more methodical fashion -the stats last year play this out as well -with Max showing his speed earlier, but Dan winning out in Q3 more often.
So in the end, it's Q3 that matters when it comes to pre-race and the score is now 5-4 to Max which is as far from domination as you can be.
As far as racing goes -it's again basically the same story -Max is no doubt a great starter -i think i heard that before Austria he was +17 places on the first laps so far this year (where he finished the first lap). Daniel is no Mark Webber on the starts either -but his race craft is really driven around his long run pace -combined with his overtaking ability under brakes.
There have been a few occasions where Max's aggression at the start has got him into trouble (going 3 wide etc), but I would expect that as he continues develop he will dial down the risk and improve on the consistency.
His DNF's are unfortunate, but speculating that if he had finished the races he would be ahead is akin to speculating that his driving style is contributing to his mechanical woes....
Neither can be proven!


Yes, I noticed Ricci's different approach too. Still, hard to believe you would be really well prepared for Q3 without doing quite a few top speed laps (albeit with a fuller tank say). You don't want any nasty surprises if you finally go for the goods. There's no indication either that Ricciardo is section picking. But it appears to work for him.


Max, top four without those DNFs, probably first place with a good car.


@ Lemwil..."just imagine Max being 'allowed' to finish' etc etc. So, are you suggesting that the team are purposely preventing Verstappen to actually race? The only points that you get in F1 is on race day, you know, when it actually counts. Interesting to note that commentators try to exaggerate Verstappens bad luck by saying he's had five DNF's out of the last six or seven races? That was race nine and he's had five out of nine. Now that is appalling [ luck] but not as bad as five out a lesser figure of races. So why all the distortion?


"Max being allowed to finish" - sorry, just colourful phrasing on my part! I meant "if the racing gods/circumstances/... allow him to finish".
Funny, last year HAM had to answer critics after a similar innocent comment: "Somebody up there doesn't want me to win" [or similar].
For the record, I don't believe there is any intra-team favouritism going on at Red Bull, let alone the sinister kind. It is however obvious that Horner/Marko are a bit (over)conscious of Max' woes when commenting on Daniel's successes. Well it's a tricky situation for them I guess. Really wouldn't read too much in that.


@ lemwil...I really don't share your opinion. The fact should be that Red Bull/Horner,Marko should and actually do acknowledge that Verstappen has had a shocking run of problems but that's where it should start and finish. Without DR's massive contribution Red Bull would be knee deep in the 'merde'. Despite the fact that i support/follow DR as a preferred driver it has been my observation that Horner and Marko have been overly compassionate towards Verstappen and that, knowing their past form, doesn't sit well with me.

Stephen Taylor

Write Bottas off at your peril. Fact is he won. I think you doing VB an incredible disservice there.


@Stephen Taylor,
I see I should have given the reason why I think he will not be WDC, instead of the clinical, dismissive 'no WDC material'. It's not his driving skills, it's not the car. It's character. There are two alpha males battling for the prize and they're both in front of him. Dominant personalities usually end up winning. One of them may suffer setbacks, like Lewis last year, but it's unlikely that both Seb and Ham will. Compare Bottas to Rosberg, it took Nico years of utter commitment, learning to play it a bit dirty now and then and a less intensely focussed Lewis to just barely snatch one title. Bottas is where Nico set out, years ago. It's all in the mind. He may win a title one day, but not any time soon.


@ lemwil...you might think that but you can't possibly say that with any realistic conviction.

Stephen Taylor

How do know Bottas isn't Alpha Male ? Yes he has no track record but up until this year he hasn't had the car to win. You can't purely base it on the fact he's never fought for a WDC before. Bottas will absolutely win a title. I think you'll be surprised and he won't need to play dirty.


@Stephen Taylor, @kenneth,
How I know with any conviction that Bottas is not an alpha male? Body language, conduct during interviews (even allowing for the fact that Finns are special!).
Just watch the photograph at the beginning of the article, it reveals all: both Vettel and Bottas are squeezing their lips together. But Vettel does so with a determined look, whereas Bottas' espression conveys he is shy, insecure, uncomfortable with the situation. Champions showing that expression are far and few between, especially when they've just won.


I am a Finn, and I can assure Y that what I have seen of Valtteri is of the same spirit as the finnish rally drivers. Takes guts to think first and then do a start like he did in Austria. An uphill struggle for a man that plays fair is to win over Ham. Ham is a team mate that thinks breaking you into the pack of wolves is fair play. Bottas is an Alpha male.


Watch out for Bottas, great starts and defensive skills, extremely cool and impressive behaviour under pressure, street fighter, ask Kimi, this guy may prove many wrong. Luck is on side too, he got the job and got Scot free from a few events by now. I find him funnier than Kimi. Those Finns...


That's 2 races running where Vettel has been seeing things. Shouldn't he have been watching the lights at the start, instead of Bottas' rear ?


Vettel didn't invent nothing in Austria. Bottas jumped the start, albeit within the rules, so Vettel was right asking aboit that.


Apparently the FIA said that yes Bottas jumped the lights but there is a tiny tolerance and so you can basically jump the lights by the blink of an eye and thats ok. Vettel and Ricciardo both accepted that Bottas start was ok, no whinging.

I have to say something isnt quite kosher when planetf1, a site dedicated to the life and carreer of Lewis Hamilton today is producing more measured and fair journalism than James Allen with this latest underhanded Vettel bashfest. Leaving Ricciardos comments during and after the race completely out can only serve one purpose. Couldnt be that a certain 38 % target group should have foam at the mouth whenever the name Vettel is mentioned, James ? Particuarly now that the British GP is just around the corner.


Ice, in what way did Seb accept that Bottas' start was ok and not whine about it? He whined about it ober the radio during the race, he whined aboutbit on the podium, he whined about it in the top three press conference and was still whining about it in the post race press interviews!


In the press conference he basically said he can only give his opinion from his view and that he's not the one to judge. That's not whining when he is asked a question. Of course you've got to take it and run with it given your adoration for someone else. By the way Ricciardo said the exact same thing twice so...



When Vettel says that he didn't "believe" the Stewards decision about Bottas' start to the race that's not only whining it's also questioning their ability to do their job. Ricciardo never said anything like this.

By now you should have realised that Vettel has form when it comes to decisions that go against him. Have you forgotten Mexico last year or even Baku when a simple apology to Lewis could have saved him the embarrassment of being hauled before FIA's International Tribunal.


Vettel questioned the 0.2 reaction time, which everybody knows is pure poppycock



Yes, I saw that but in a round-a-bout way he's still questioning the decision when given his history it might be better if he just focused on racing. Just my opinion.


I think a lot of people are noticing this. I'm wondering if it's really James writing it or a ghostwriter. It certainly used to be less biased, I know he replies occasionally saying he's. It biased but maybe he's too close and doesn't see it.


Oh, it's been that way for a few years now. Several years ago this was the one of the best F1 sites around. Now, given this ridiculous click-bait headline, it appears Vettel is this year's Rosberg.


Should have said "saying he's not biased" but autocorrected to "he's. It biased."


That's because you you didn't type it correctly in the first place. Excuse my biase towards autocorrect.


James has only said that he thought it was worthy of a DSQ ... if you ask the entire paddock, I would bet that that would be the majority opinion. Perhaps you are too close to your own bias, and can't see it. Everyone has bias, and everyone has their own opinion. James' is certainly not an extremist view (if anything, it's the mainstream one).



Agreed! I would say there is a clear difference between expressing an opinion based on predetermined bias and one based on objectivity after considering all the relevant facts.



Agreed! T


I'm curious James. At what point do you blame the team or the garage for their errors instead of calling it an "off peak weekend for Hamilton?" We know he was consistently put under the gun by the gearbox and a garage error blown disc. We now know the garage blew his qualy set up. We know the set up ills had to continue as Hamilton has shown he can extract laps from tires when other drivers cannot. So, when do you call it as it is rather than pretend like the blame is to be shouldered by Hamilton?


No jump start because there was no punishment. End of story... lets move on.


I don't believe it that a spoilt man like him clutches straws in order to gain any advantage and spits the dummy out of the Pram if he don't get his own way. The stewards was wrong last week I was a good boy. Oh hang on the stewards are wrong this week? I don't believe he was faster than me that's impossible.

Torchwood Five

I believe that Seb has made note of how a good portion of the fans seem to trust his insta-analysis over telemetry and sensor data checked at length, and is now employing mind games.


Hamilton brake tested him, Bottas jumped the start. Vettel is becoming the Donald Trump of F1.


VET should indeed shut it, but otoh maybe something isn't squeaky clean, and maybe twice the telemetry data negates what can be seen in slow-motion.
Ham decelerated without braking, and BOT moved forward too soon without jumpstarting. If we can't prove, we shut it, but today it isn't a grey area, In my opinion.
I guess you'll be able to explain the youtube slow-motions from onboard BOT's car? Bear in mind, one can argue the video compression algoritm is slow to detect the colour change, and the images are built up from top to bottom, but this only gives you 80ms, not the 360 ms you'll need to clear.


The FIA explained it, and autosport reported it
Bottas' car does rock backwards and forwards. But when did he actually release the clutch and make his start ? They have a precise moment for that, a little more than 200ms after the lights changed. It's a very good start, not a foul.


James Encore, be fair, he's just trying to make F1 great again....


Unfortunately he's making it grate.

Bernie's JerseyOffShore Racing

Info straight from Mika Salo, race steward: they are not allowed to judge jump starts with video, the rules say they are only allowed to use info from the car sensor. And the rules allow the car to move .01 _before_ the lights go out, Bottas did do a jump start but was within that buffer that rules allow: Bottas moved approx .003 before the lights went out.

So yes, Vettel was right that Bottas did in fact do a jump start, but that was still barely within the rules. So Bottas was really lucky, was within the rules and it doesn't matter anyway since a thousandth here or there wasn't at play in the first corner.


Interesting. I read about the sensor being the main determinant for jump starts, but not about the allowable range of movement.

Although just getting Vettel to rule on everyone's start would likely be cheaper, and more fair. 😉


Autosport said that they keep the allowable movement secret so teams can't export it.
To compare it with a sprinter : they can wobble in their blocks before the gun, but the false start is judged by how soon after the gun they launch. Bottas moved fractionally forwards and backwards waiting for the lights to change. Having seen the video that people are complaining about he does appear to be moving slightly forward when the lights changed, but if he had released the clutch 1 or 2 video frames too soon it would have as 80ms before the change, not 200ms after.

Bernie's JerseyOffShore Racing Team

Probably doesn't matter that Mika Salo revealed the allowed tolerance: there's basically no way that the teams or drivers could exploit a window of 0.01 seconds anyway. Not to mention the risks are too high, not even close to being worth the miniscule rewards.


I think the window is how far the car can move - I suspect it is 10CM and Bottas moved 3CM (the numbers you quoted were 1CM and 3mm)
I'm sure if you told the teams they could move 10CM, they'd find a way of exploiting that somehow


Interesting note on the Felipe Massa "offset" strategy. Looking at the race, it looked quite a difficult one to overtake on, full-stop. A shame, because it's quite a niche circuit in terms of how short the lap is and how fast it is (even in its current guise) and I think it's worth its place on the calendar.

Congratulations Valtteri Bottas. A deserved winner and, whisper it, the chance of a title fight. Only 15 points off Lewis and 35 off Vettel. The jump-start issue has been cleared up, with an FIA spokesman talking about a "tolerance level" around the actual "setting off" time. I must admit, in real time, I immediately said "woah! that was close to a jump start! The replay will be interesting!" On balance, I think it was a classic "fortune favours the brave" scenario, and fairplay to Bottas. But I can see why Vettel (and Ricciardo) wasn't happy with it.

Vettel increases his points lead slightly but still think the title fight is brewing nicely and will run and run. Solid defensive driving from Ricciardo on Hamilton late on, kept his calm and showed his experience. Kudos, further down, to Romain Grosjean for a top weekend in the Haas, and a solid 6th place finish. And where better than on a weekend where Sergio Marchionne gave Kimi Raikkonen the hurry-up (thinking 2018 here, not 2017).


consider how many points BOT have had to give to HAM due 2 team orders?


"Interesting note on the Felipe Massa "offset" strategy. Looking at the race, it looked quite a difficult one to overtake on, full-stop. A shame, because..."

Alas, I find Massa to be a bit of the Yassir Arafat of F1 - he never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity [sigh]


Bottas was just before the lights went out. I wonder if Seb would have got away with it if he did the same. I'm betting no!!!


Ok, point taken, so who's your guy?


@ AlanF1

LOL. Well, I am old, so many of the chaps I followed are retired or dead. Depending on my then current age/the era: Stewart. Fittipaldi. Lauda. Villeneuve. Piquet. Prost. Alonso.

And, as much as I hate to admit it as a Scot living in Canada that is or was pals with many who either flew or built Lancasters, I admired Schumie's skill. Just don't tell all of my Brit or Veteran fans that I supported a German! LOL


Why, it's Giorgio Pantano - says it right there in his username!

Thread the Needle

Great job by Bottas, Kimi being Vettels puppet once again


Kimi lost the position to Ham any way, So the best Ferrari could do was keep him out as long as possible without a threat of an undercut. In case of a SC, this could've been gold


Imagine the cries from Lauda and Toto if it had been Vettel jumping the start. He was moving before the lights went out, end of story, black flag or he starts from the back of the grid on the restart. I'd like to know, James, if you ever heard of this rule before. This proves again that the FIA and F1 management will do everything they have to do including cheating to keep Mercedes in the championship. Why, only they know. F1 did fine for 50 years without them, now we have the Formula One World Championship brought to you by Mercedes Benz.


Well Merc had to change HAM's gearbox after VET rammed HAM in Baku. But they put out a statement saying it wasn't VET's fault.
The stewards had data which said BOT's car moved before the start but when he released the clutch was fine. You might imagine if stewards had similar data showing VET's car wasn't frozen, but didn't release the clutch prematurely, they would shut up.
Lauda, certainly knows the governing body cheats in Ferrari's favour. He benefitted from it when racing James Hunt. It's been one of the constants of the sport. Vettel's behaviour in Baku was the equivalent of a footballer or Rugby player headbutting and opponent he thought had fouled him, in any other sport it would have been off and a ban. Did Toto or Lauda call for a black flag for him ? Not that I heard. You're obviously so used to cheating in Ferrari's favour being the norm, that a decision based on rules and evidence seems like cheating to you.


Harvey, perhaps instead of jumping to such wild conclusions and accusations, you should keep cool, and gather information first.


I saw the video of Bottas' tire moving with the lights still on, and I thought that was a jump start, but after reading a few articles about the FIA allowances for clutch adjustments, I now understand more about what does or what doesn't constitutes a jump start.


Max has lost his lucky mojo.

Seems to be cursed lately. Maybe that orange smoke flare is sending a message to F1 Gods?


Just too hard on his cars. Or is his team sabotaging him? It's so hard to tell these days.


Maybe he's taking a page out of 2014 Vettel and trying to trigger an exit clause?


Max needs a shaman's help, a DNF too many, there is no coincidence. Interesting his attitude after the last one, cool, contained and a smiley face, he knows something. Vettel may have soon a new teamate that will give him headaches. With a good car Vet/Max duo will be unbeatable, not sure who of the two is gonna win the drivers championship.


Was this before or after Ricciardo started beating him? To be honest Red Bull are so "hip" and "down with the kids" I would rather be at square, crusty old fuddy-duddy Ferrari.

I'd never heard that, though. Was Vettel's performance bad enough to trigger an exit clause? Especially after he had just won them four titles on the bounce.

Has anyone like Vettel or someone from Red Bull said anything about it? Even some hack on the F1 gravy train? At the time I just thought Ricciardo was faster. In fact I still think Ricciardo is marginally faster, and better wheel to wheel, than Vettel. It's sad his face doesn't fit at Red Bull now that they have shoe-horned Max in. Dan must have seen the writing was on the wall when they took Monaco and Spain off him. Especially Spain.


His face most certainly fitted in when paired with Vettel who was Red Car bound that season. I'm glad DR has changed his ways and now played the largely "safe hands" game which is now paying off handsomely. Paid off for me too as I have had a series of "Race Match" team mate wagers on DR to finish in front of his "faster" team mate each race which have really paid off. The bookies do not always get their favourites right. Superb value available in those team mate "match" bets which are effectively a series of two horse races within each race. I suspect such good value will now no longer be available on DR over MV match bets. 5-2 in a two horse evenly matched two horse race is good value. Long gone I now suspect. Safe hands pays off quite frequently in more ways than one.


For a few moments there (at the start) I thought Mark Webber had made a comeback 🙂


Vettel should stop complaining. He should be very grateful he was allowed to drive at Spielberg, after all!

Fursty ferret

Can I ask how this post got past the moderator?