Analysis: What was going on behind the scenes in F1 British GP and why did the race end as it did?
Insight
Vettel and Verstappen
Strategy Report
Posted By: James Allen  |  18 Jul 2017   |  3:33 pm GMT  |  308 comments

The British Grand Prix turned out to be a dominant win for Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes, but the strategy that underlined the rest of the race outcome was fascinating as teams were caught in two minds whether to go with two stops or one.

And many, having opted for the latter due to low degradation in the opening stint, found themselves with tyre problems at the end of the race. Ferrari suffered two costly tyre failures in the closing stages.

Vettel pitted early to undercut Verstappen, having lost time behind him in the early laps. But later in the race, with Valtteri Bottas coming up quickly from behind on a one-stop reverse strategy (soft tyre first, supersoft second), Vettel didn’t have the scope to do a two stop strategy without losing position to the Finn, so he went for the finish on the same set of tyres.

Vettel, Verstappen

Conversely both Bottas and Daniel Ricciardo defied these issues and forced their way through the field from 9th and 19th places respectively with offset strategies, which took advantage of the ‘overcut’ (running longer than your rivals) and of the powerful DRS advantage at Silverstone.

The key to doing well was having strong front tyre stability through the high-speed esses at Maggots/Becketts, which gave a good exit onto the Hangar Straight for an overtake into Stowe corner. We saw speed differentials of over 30km/h there between cars with and without DRS, but only if the front tyres were holding on.

Another thing that caught out several teams was that the pit loss time was longer than in previous seasons, as the cars were travelling more quickly on the track relative to the cars in the pit lane. For teams that were limited on engine mileage in practice and were not able to devote three laps to a simulation of this, positions were lost in the race.

So what was going on behind the scenes and why did the race end as it did?

Renault F1 team

Pre Race Expectations

Pirelli decided to bring the supersoft, soft and medium tyres to Silverstone; a revision to their original plan of a step harder. The idea was to try to create more variability in the strategies as most races this year have featured only two of the compounds and have largely been one-stop affairs.

Friday practice running was not interrupted by rain and the teams covered a good mileage. Mercedes did not do much long run work on the soft tyres, while Ferrari did a good back-to-back comparison with both cars.

The data showed that Mercedes had a long run pace advantage on supersoft of around three to four tenths of a second to Ferrari, while Red Bull was over a second off, followed by Williams, Force India and an improved Renault.

Degradation on Friday looked like it would tend towards a two-stop race, with the undercut looking quite strong (ability to pit for a new set of tyres before the car ahead and jump him when he stops). The indicator for that is when the degradation is around 1/10th of a second per lap, or more.

But we have seen the Pirellis behave differently on a Sunday compared to a Friday many times, so strategists were looking to the degradation rate in the first stint as the key indicator or whether to go for one or two stops.

Silverstone 2017 F1

On Sunday the degradation was much lower than expected on supersoft so everyone could increase his first stint length. However the degradation was ‘sinusoidal’ which means that it didn’t degrade in a linear way, but had accelerated phases and calmer phases. Managing that and the stint length was very important and one of the reasons why Bottas and Ricciardo did so well.

The other surprise as that the soft tyres were not as fast as expected. The front tyres became the limitation, rather than the rears. Blistering appeared, which didn’t affect the lap time performance but was worrying for the teams, as it often goes down to the canvas.

Bottas had finished the race in Austria with a large blister on his front tyre and in the Grand Prix at Silverstone it wasn’t only the faster cars that push their tyres hardest which suffered. Even Sauber, that has the least downforce of any team, suffered blisters at the end.

The debate then was whether to make a precautionary late pit stop, even if it meant sacrificing track position. When you are well up in the points, as Ferrari and Max Verstappen were, this was a tough decision.

When the Ferrari tyres failed and both drivers had to pit, that allowed Verstappen to make his cautionary stop just before the end, without losing position.

Daniel Ricciardo
Valtteri Bottas and Daniel Ricciardo on a roll

One of the standout drives was Daniel Ricciardo in the Red Bull, who had to start 19th after a power unit issue in qualifying. Like Bottas, his best strategy was to offset himself against the other cars and create opportunity to pick up places when they stopped or by overtaking them. He managed to go to Lap 32 on a set of supersofts, giving him an offset of almost 10 laps against the Force India cars and Hulkenberg.

Ricciardo made many overtakes in this race, especially into Turn 15, Stowe corner. He managed to maintain strong pace and keep the front tyres alive so that when he exited the high speed esses onto Hangar Straight he had a high closing speed that when the DRS was then opened, he could easily pass. For example when he passed Perez in the Force India, he was doing 320km/h with DRS and Perez was doing 288km/h. Although Perez has a Mercedes engine in the back of the car, he could not cope with that speed differential. Ricciardo also passed many cars into Turn 6, Brooklands, at the end of the other DRS zone. He passed both Saubers, Kvyat, Stroll and at the end of the race Hulkenberg into there.

This was an extreme example of a phenomenon we have seen a lot this season; on a track like Silverstone the DRS is very powerful as the drag is higher in the first place on these cars and the front tyre limitation accentuated that on Sunday.

Valtteri Bottas was forced to start 9th after a gearbox change penalty and used a reverse strategy of starting on soft tyres, then using supersofts at the end. Mercedes were hoping that Ferrari and Red Bull would get into a strategy battle where one undercut the other, which would give Mercedes the chance to go long with Bottas to Lap 32 and overcut Verstappen. He was also able to get Vettel because the tyre offset at that point when Bottas caught Vettel meant he was on fresher Supersofts with Vettel on older softs. This is exactly what happened with Vettel on Verstappen.

Valtteri Bottas

However, Bottas would not have caught Raikkonen had the older Finn not hit problems with his front tyre at the end.

There was a point in the race, between Laps 35 and 40, when Ferrari could have been forgiven for thinking about switching their cars around, with Bottas closing in on supersoft tyres and Raikkonen just 4 seconds ahead of Vettel.

In fact there wasn’t even a discussion about it on the radio.

On the face of it, it would have made sense as it would have given Vettel protection from Bottas in the closing stages and the flat spot he got on his front tyre -fighting with Bottas – that later failed, could have been avoided.

But the reality was that Raikkonen was out of reach of Bottas and by slowing Raikkonen down to let Vettel pass, the team risked losing both positions to Bottas. It would have needed Raikkonen to fight with great commitment to hold Bottas at bay.

So this was an interesting decision. If Ferrari’s interest was purely Vettel’s drivers’ championship campaign, they might have tried it. But here the decision was to try to secure second place for Raikkonen, who had been the stronger Ferrari driver at Silverstone anyway.

Vettel’s race was compromised by losing a position to Verstappen at the start and then by pitting early to make the undercut on Verstappen, which meant he had a longer second stint than ideal on the soft tyres.

Verstappen can now afford to be very aggressive in races as his chances of winning the championship have gone, so that is something Ferrari and other rivals have to bear in mind when thinking of race strategy. Ferrari had to go even more aggressive on him to get Vettel ahead and ultimately paid a price.

The other small point worth noting is that Esteban Ocon finished ahead of Sergio Perez in a race for the first time, having passed him off the start line.

The UBS Race Strategy Report is written by James Allen with input and data from several of the leading teams’ strategists and from Pirelli

Race History & Tyre Usage Charts – Kindly supplied by Martini Williams Racing

The gaps between the top three teams are the largest they have been this year and between them and the rest is a gulf. Silverstone was a painful weekend for many F1 teams as they came to terms with their relative pace.

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1

@deancassady 2.45pm 19th July 2017.

Well said Dean. Agree 100% with your analysis based on sound observations.. I could have written all that myself and more besides. You have saved me that task. Thank you.

Kvyat. So very true. Every aspect. How soon will he get not a “double jeopardy” penalty, but a treble jeopardy penalty if FAI/Stewards continue that upwards spiral of “fair and just” decisions. All that whilst conveniently turning a blind eye to higher profile driver “fairness” behaviour and even deploying conveniently very flexible “Jump Start” “non-Brake Test” dramatic slowing parameters … purely in the interests of the sport. About the only penalty that they “awarded” was for the Wheel Banging “afters” by Dick Dastardly in the Red means of getting about.

On some so called F1 Race Reports, Lewis was considered DOTD. Yeah right. His win at Silverstone on Sunday was the nearest thing you’ll ever be likely to see to a racing certainty. That Mercedes-Benz 1-2 was the finest Demonstration run of Car Superiority I have seen for many a long season.

Hamilton has oden been accused of driving the wheels off his cars. Very true. Witness many past DNFs with wheel-less McLarens and Mercedes. On Sunday, we saw that “driving the wheels off” cliche come about by at least three of the four Red Bull and Ferrari drivers, maybe all four.

Anyway, despite some few observers saying it was a boring race, I have yet to see a boring F1 race in over fifty years of watching and attending F1 events both in the UK and on Mainland Europe. How come some may ask. Because the cars are always the stars and my focus of interest. Last weekend was no exception. It actually emphasised yet again that the cars are the stars.

Roll on the next event. Not long now.

2

Big John:
Thanks for the comment; loved getting a smile on my face and the added observations/analysis.
Unfortunately, Merc has been playing the fans this year, as they needed to to preserve their ROI, since fans like us were leaving in droves; I doubt I’ll renew my viewing subscription for the rest of the year, as it has become obvious, once again that the hybrid-era Merc is untouchable.
Again, I note: job well done, but the extreme success of it is choking off the reason why enthusiasts like you and I participate.
Ferr are floundering and will likely move backwards, as they did last year, with RB moving into the prime ‘chump’ position of providing the illusuion of competition, and in doing so, taking points off Ferr, thereby cannibalizing their championship drive and delivering the WCC once again to Merc.
The only ‘excitement’ for the remainder of the year will be the factional battle between two media/PR/’fixing’ heavy weight camps surrounding each of the RB drivers. While I begrudgingly (because of the blatent dangerous driving and ridiculous over-representation on the new media scene) acknowledge the potential WDC of The Max, I think DR, while a good driver, is the most blatently over-hyped asset in F1 history (of course, after the ‘most complete driving samauri’).

Rolling on, I’ll watch Budapest, but hope that I lose the bug over the summer break and give up my participation for a while.

party on.

3

All i will say is what everyone has said for last few years now, stick any driver in the merc and you will win or will challenge for title.
Proif is right there bottas.
Kinda puts what was said into the truth and proved.
Now i still think bottas will beat lewis he is getting very strong.
Lewis was lucky in silverstone as he got away with penalty in qualiy.
And then his team mate put way behind his only real challenger.
Bottas was dominant lewis was just up front in the fastest car so alot easyer than what bottas had to do.
So if bottas walks into a team n puts this much pressure on lewis now then whats that make lewis or the car.
When it was anounced lewis was to trounce bottas but they aint singing the same tune now like i always thought.
Bottas is on a dnf too atm too.
Which could be the be all and end all by end of season.
But racing is goid now its another team nearly caught up and then another getting closer n closer, can only say what a year it might be and hope nobody breaks free in the fight on the points.

4

Yes, Hamilton was untouchable in the Merc.

But we must also note how incredibly strong a drive the Bottas/Merc run was.
We are now fully back to the MMC (Mercedes Managed Championship), and it looks like they may have been playing with the optics at the start of the year to preserve the illusion of competition. The only competition is between the two Merc drivers, and in reality, while I like Bottas, and I think he will be very much closer next year, as he is now, but from the very first race, one must admit that barring a disaster, this year will result in Lewis’ 4th WDC.
Despite the fact that we have a virtual reset for a new season in the second half, Merc are clearly on the steep upward trajectory, and Ferr are floundering, at best, 0.3-0.4 off the Merc pace in race, and in qualifying… just forget it.

I still believe that The Max’s swerves in the braking zones are an order of magnitude more dangerous than the ‘incident’ between Vettel and Hamilton.
Having it (the Max swerve) be overlooked by the governance, completely, while the ‘incident’ garnered so much (ridiculously so) attention, strongly suggests that the governance is driven more by political churn/considerations than by driver safety.
I write again that this will eventually lead to disaster and injury, and then all sorts of hand-wringing about ‘how could this happen?’ It truly shows off the humungous flaws in the governance, again.
But if swerving under braking is okay, great drive from Max!
As predicted a couple of races ago, Ocon has beaten the highly rated Perez, and if Ferrari want the best prospect, then it is Ocon, if they drop Kimi this year, (which seems probable to me, unfortunately). Ocon can be aggressive but fair, and thus still potentially ‘keep some peace’ at Ferrari, wheras installing Max there would inevitably cause churn.
Incidentally, while Horner has done a good job keep the churn slightly under the surface, I still expect a great fireworks display at RB this season.
Kvyat is the most maligned driver in F1, owing almost exclusively to the ‘western empire’s’ childish demonization of Russia and all things Russian; he is truly a victim of global geo-political machinations, which have nothing to do with him.
Both Sainz and Verstappen will always have clashes with their team mates.
Unfortunately for Kvyat, his reputation is pretty well unsalvageable, despite the fact that in one or two mid-field seats on the grid, he would have likely trounced an incumbent (I’m thinking yellow!)
Be that as it may, it must be said, while a driving incident (he lost control of his car, momentarily), he was principally at fault at Silverstone this year.

Loved the analysis, and it was back on par with the actual race, since the winner was never really in question after 2-3 laps.

I will note that by lap 20, Lewis was almost 20 seconds up on the lead Ferrari, translating to almost a second per lap race pace advanatge. No matter how good Lewis is (you Lewy fanatics), it wasn’t solely down to the driver.

Mercedes had all of the upgrades, in the bag at the start of the season, and held them back, strategically, to enable the perception of competition. They could have held them back until Spa, but corporate directors are not known for their sporting spirit in taking true risk, and thus we have the MMC, still in place of F1, for the entire hybrid era, so far, and it does NOT look like it will likely change under the existing regime.

5

It would have been too risky to swap places between Kimi and Seb. Bottas would have passed them both in a worst case scenario. Ferrari surely thought about it, but realized the risks. And even if it woud have been feasible, the way Kimi would have needed to slow down, first to let Seb pass and then really slow Bottas down to create a gap to Seb, it think even Ferrari saw how bad that would look. The way Ferrari rather operate these things nowadays is covertly.

6

Yay!

Whose the best driver? Let’s answer that in late Novemeber, eh?!

7
Clarks4WheelDrift

Jim Clark or Ayrton Senna.

8

Since Ferrari Do not have the qualifying pace but are closer to the Merc on race pace, the Main LIMITATIONS that SEB RAN INTO this year a few times is MAX V.

Offcourse it’s Completely FAIR for Max to try and beat Seb at the first corner with the SLOWER Redbull and then hope to hold on to the better position till the end of the race.

Unfortunately, it robs us of a Hamilton vs Vettel direct head to head fight as there is no chance for a Ferrari to catch up with a Merc after being stuck behind Redbull for so long.

While its fun Watching Seb Vs Max and the driving skills involved… I’d rather hope for many more quick DNFs for MAX at the start of the race so that the title Protagonists are the ones battling and not some slower team that managed to get the “JUMP” and drives ultra defensively till the end of the race.

Even Hamilton said he was just watching the BIG SCREENS rooting for competition to drive up to him. None came.

For the sake of a direct Title Battle, I *hope* the slower cars don’t manage to jump the faster ones at the first corner in the remaining races 🙂

9
C;arks4WheelDrift

I get your point but the Ferrari is now not able to take on the Merc, it is now Merc then Ferrari then Red Bull then a massive gap to the midfield Merc customers.

It’ll be a miracle if Ferrari improve their development to match the works Merc PU.

It’s now a teammate battle if allowed, Merc are back to 2014, 15, 16 style cruising then pushing dominance, unfortunately.

10
Clarks4WheelDrift

Interesting the speed on track meant the time lost in pits was greater. Noticed another thing earlier, the Sauber seemed to benefit by pitting to get rid of the tyre types under the safety car. Despite being the slowest car it jumped a few positions after others stopped later under racing speed, though similar to McLaren it is too slow to make a difference on a power track.

Merc money and engineering from the past 4 years is really taking over again. They can run a second off their ultimate pace to maintain a gap then push before pitstops, even Bottas can easily match Ferrari on new tyres while he is on old.

Bottas would have podiumed whether he had started on red or yellow tyres with that advantage. No way Kimi would have been able to hold him off on older tyres without dirty tactics and that is not Kimi. Bottas had no need to gain all his places in the first lap, just bide his time then boost by like LMP1 vs GT cars. Lewis could sandbag cruise, watch the race on the big screens, then push hard for just a very few laps when matters, to preserve his car and tyres.

Ferrari had to drive their cars and scrub their tyres to destruction just to try and stay ahead of a Merc that started 9th.

Dan Ric was fun to watch but the fact remains that they are alone with the third best car and despite Newey’s brilliance with aero, helping Dan’s brilliance with overtaking, they are nowhere near Mercedes.

Yet again, the PU has killed off Newey’s influence.

Forget the halo nonsense, the single thing to improve in F1 is closing the massive PU gaps between midfield to Red Bull and to Mercedes. Then bin the grid penalties before it destroys the third race for victory in a row.

It’s all about wheel to wheel racing, not press the loud pedal and go 30kph faster.

It’s a joke to not be able to watch Perez race Ocon because they are being lapped by a works Mercedes!!

Same engine, minutes slower per race, fat cats Mercedes have bought and own F1 for marketing purposes.

Wake up Liberty and do something about it, something Taylor Swift cannot fix!

11

No one has commented that the graph shows great pace from HUL – not matching the top three teams, but way ahead of the others.

12

Verstappen can now afford to be very aggressive in races as his chances of winning the championship have gone

Is it mathematically inpossible for Max to win the drivers championship now? It would be interesting to see a list of drivers that are mathematically still able to win the title…. Is it only the top 4? (Merc and Ferrari drivers?)

13

Every driver can still win the drivers championship, in theory.

Vettel has 177 points. There are 10 races remaining so a maximum of 250 points are still available.

14

The maths isn’t difficult. Anyone within 25x[number of remaining races] of the current points leader has a mathematical chance of becoming WDC.

15

Everyone can still mathematically win, and it will be that way for a few races still.

16

It’s an easy calculation. Number of races left x 25 points. 10 races left, so 250 points on the table. Vettel has 177 points which means even Vandoorne is still in the title hunt officially. In reality however you can clearly see it’s going to be between Lewis, Valtteri and Sebastian. Ricciardo is maybe an outsider but the car is simply not fast enough consistently. Kimi is Ferrari’s number 2 driver so no chance there either.

17

Hi James.

Have you ever shared your opinion on who you think the greatest F1 drivers are? I’d be very interested to read your thoughts on that subject!

18

Why, it would only lead to a lot of disagreements and bashing in the comments 😉

19

Not really because you can only speak about drivers you have seen race. I start with Senna and Prost really because I was only 7 when Jackie retired and never saw Clark race – even though my Dad was friends with him

So in my era Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton are the standouts and Seb close behind because he’s brilliant, but slightly less versatile and I think versatility is one of the most important skills of a racing driver

20

If versatile, why do Hamilton then have those Full On or Full Off weekends? Some race weekends he is outstanding from first FP, Qualification and in the race. And then come next race weekend and its like he can get nothing to work well for him? All while we have seen his ‘stable teammates’ get on with their usual ‘good qualification and racing’ race weekend after race weekend.

21

@ james…versatility/ adaptability. Both of these attributes were the reason why the hominids rule the planet. Not all drivers are ‘born’ equal. Those that have an abundance of these characteristics tend to be successful. Some drivers for example find wet races are their ‘bete noir’ whilst others flourish and so on and on over many other issues.

22

James, I respect your opinion, but IMHO versatility is not what LH is about. Beaten by not so stellar team mates, Glock title with with one point difference and less podiums than the runner up-submissive Massa, always good cars with Merc standing out as a monster car, just think if he did not join Mercedes, clutch schooling and his struggle in a few races this year when Bottas easily eclipsed him, so where is that versatility. Is he good? Absolutely. More? Take his car and watch him struggle miserably.

23

Lol, Beaten by not so stellar team mates? I know what you doing here… but humor me, which teammate has ever beaten Lewis? on merit over the whose season? Don’t talk about those who have benefited from Lewis reliability problems. We all know that any machine is more likely to break when its gets pushed to its limit the most that not.

24

AlanF1. And right there in your response is the reason you shouldn’t get involved in these discussions. You do not like Lewis, that’s fine but you have allowed that dis like to blind you to his strengths and over react to his weaknesses. You cant really think that your massively cherry picked stats will cause a real expert to think again in his assesment can you?

25

James, no mention of the two Finnish champions which is understandable. What’s your opinion on Mika vs Kimi?

26

James, Hamilton was only seven or younger when Senna died, but he is carrying the batton for him!!

27

James, thanks so much for your reply! Great bit of trivia about your father and Clark.

(Btw, your commentary at the 02 Austrian GP is my all time favorite race call)

28

Cheers! I remember it well! With Mark Blundell

29

“Another thing that caught out several teams was that the pit loss time was longer than in previous seasons, as the cars were travelling more quickly on the track relative to the cars in the pit lane. For teams that were limited on engine mileage in practice and were not able to devote three laps to a simulation of this, positions were lost in the race.”

Something seems wrong if teams can’t figure out the answer, virtually, if they didn’t have the time to do an actual on-track simulation. Or, why not just time another team doing a simulation, or even during the race, watch the first car to pit, and calculate the delta.

30

Well looks like the 2017 F1 season is now a formality following Sunday’s demonstration 1-2 run of Mercedes-Benz superiority.

At least 75% of both Red Bull and Ferrari Drivers literally justified that often misused cliche by “driving the wheels off” their cars literally in a futile attempt to match the Silver Arrows. Look at the state of those fronts :~

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7b6695774f5f13cecc185bdc430a5277d43f05b8ab80e661178ee7b128d76606.jpg

31

James, do you know what caused Vettels puncture? The massive lock up defending against Bottas must have been a factor?

32

Yes but it was the blistering that caused it

33

Pirelli said the lock up had nothing to do with it!

34

Do anyone know what happened to Raikkonen’s tyres, did they suddenly delaminate totally or did their grip suddenly drop off a cliff?

35

So Bottas run his softs for qually and then for 32 more laps in the race, running in traffic and pulling off overtakes. Yet Vettel could only just manage 32 before the blow up.. I wonder what Ferrari are doing different set-up wise? Or was it truely all down to Vettels crap wheel to wheel racing?

36

The other small point worth noting is that Esteban Ocon finished ahead of Sergio Perez in a race for the first time, having passed him off the start line.

Didn’t Ocon finish ahead in Monaco? Or did Perez not make the finish? Pretty sure he was classified.

37

James, do you think Max could have been third had he not stopped for tyres at the end? It would be close with Kimi, though…

38

One thins is clear on the chart, after lap 40 Vettel lost a lot of pace, so clearly knew he had a problem with the front tyres, so a pit stop then could have saved his Points lead.

39

Remember when Mark Webber left F1 and went to sports cars? One of his first observations was the tires in this series were meant to race, and not wear out early. He loved the idea. This idea of F1 tire strategies to handicap everyone down to the same level is beginning to get old.

40

+100 Gene!
It’s like putting a bungy rope on Hussain Bolt!

41

If Ferrari don’t turn up in Hungary and Mercedes have truly ironed out their tyre issues, one gets the feeling that the season might be over much sooner than we expected. It will be a pity as Vettel vs. Hamilton was shaping up really well…

42

So happy that Ferrari couldn’t screw Kimi’s race with some idiotic strategy in this race.

43

Sami, they tried, but Seb wasn’t quick enough to take advantage.

44

Like I’ve said, there’s only one team using team orders plainly this season so far, and that’s Mercedes. HAM…ilton of course makes public statements that Ferrari are only backing Vettel etc.. and then he’ll get on the radio and ask his team to make his team mate slow down. Gotta love the hypocrisy from a guy in the fastest car for years.. I’d criticize Mercedes the same but Toto has been quite fair in some assessments of late.

45

Don’t worry Cheesy, Nico let Lewis past in a race and Lewis still could win the championship against him.

The Snapchat weekend in Japan, (whispered)

46

Funny thing – look who the latest partner of F1 is – Snapchat!

Looks to me like Liberty should be paying Lewis royalties.

Regardless – Cheesy – the man could run on water and you would have some issue or another. Your constant imagined ‘failures’ really could do with substance rather than constant trying to run the narrative by changing history.

Put simply – the facts rather make your constant rants look silly…

47

@cheesy
Yes, he asked. Did Merc comply?

48

Most dominant car ever

49

He lied right into stewards faces, so not surprising at all.

50

Andrew, do you really think there is a driver on the grid who has never lied to the stewards?!

51

Yes, I do.

52

Andrew, go on……

53
Tornillo Amarillo

HAM asked that once in 11 seasons -and I don’t know why-. It was rejected.

But still it is the preferred line from hard critics nowadays -and I do know why-.

54

Lets not mention Lewis in the same race asking the stewards to give a bigger penalty,………….. while the race was going on.

“Charlie give him a bigger penalty so I can get past! Ok that didn’t work. Tell my teammate to slow down so I can get past”.

This is taking the saying “Do your talking on track” to a whole new level.

55

Hello, can you remember Seb demanding penalties for pretty much everyone in Mexico last year, or that time Fernando was complaining about Rosberg’s dangerous driving in Bahrain 2012? The truth of course is that barely a race goes by without at least one driver demanding another gets penalised, but obviously you are only interested in one driver aren’t you?

56

But there’s only one driver who always says he does his talking on the track.

The Snapchat weekend in Japan (.whispered)

All I seen at Silverstone was a lot of over compensation. I knew there would be some PR stunt after the London no show. When did Lewis tell someone to get Billy Munger to Silverstone. I’d say it was as soon as Lewis knew he wasn’t going to London and not before.

57

Hello. No, I think I have heard all the drivers say similar stuff before.
What do you want to say about Snapchat? Just come out and say it, no need to whisper.
All you ‘seen’ at Silverstone was Lewis doing the same stuff with the fans that he did when he won last year, and the year before that, and the year before that!
You have no idea when Billy was invited to the garage, or why. Pretending that you do just outs you.

58

Hey I would just like a look at the email dates, that’s all.

Just like I would like a look at the email dates from team Hamilton to Sky F1 to set up the interview after Singapore. I’m guessing the Monday morning.

He outed himself in that interview (and in Sepang). I wonder if he planned it himself or did his Dad/”Brand” Hamilton come up with the plan to put pressure on the team. In the end the pressure just went on to fragile Lewis,…………. and he crumbled. Nico Rossberg is a world champion when Lewis was his teammate.

The Snapchat weekend in Japan (whispered).

59

Hello, then you should submit a freedom of information request asking to see those emails, and when you have seen them you can comment on their contents from a position of knowledge, rather than where you are now, ie the opposite.
F1 drivers dont request interviews, the journalist does that. What did he say in that interview that vexes you so? Im struggling to remember to be honest. I do remember Lewis followed the Singapore weekend with four straight poles and victories, is this what you mean by “crumbled”?

60

Is it because Hamilton has always professed that he only wants total equality among team-mates? Is that why? And then when you get caught asking for favours after you’ve already been helped by your team in having your team-mate move over, multiple times? Or is it because last year Nico was asked to move over by the team and did, but when the situation was reversed Hamilton refused, instead wanting to make things worse for his team-mate? Could that be why, the hypocrisy of it all, while having the fastest car for years in a row, maybe?

61
Tornillo Amarillo

No, that’s not the reason Cheesy.

62

Cheesypoof. One team order in Bahrain where they were trying to go for the win, and that made zero difference to Valterri’s finishing position, doesnt really outweigh Ferrari throwing Kimi under the bus in Monaco, and trying to do it again at Silverstone. Just to be clear the lead driver getting the worst strategy is worse than the kind of mild team order that Merc used in Bahrain.

63

You realize he already knows this … James did a good summary of how Mercedes approaches racing, on another thread, and their calls have been totally consistent with that. When you twist yourself in knots, then don’t know how to extricate yourself, then you create posts like CP’s. Embarrassing and cringeworthy … the crying baby retort to you was especially so.

64

He’s been officially asked more than once by Mercedes to let his team-mate through. You can look it up. Meanwhile your Ferrari theory is just an unproved theory. Not quite the same is it.

65

Cheesypoof. Valterri was asked to let Lewis through in Bahrain when he was two seconds a lap slower and about to be overtaken anyway, there is no team in any series in history that wouldn’t have done exactly the same thing in that situation. There are plenty of teams who wouldnt have given a massive strategic advantage to their second placed driver as Ferrari did in Monaco though, and Mercedes are one of them. You say that this is an “unproven theory”, but the fact remains that Kimi was leading comfortably, and then Seb passed him in the pits!

66

No point talking about facts if you are then going to disregard them. Bottas was asked twice, at two different points, to let Hamilton through, which he did. Twice. You keep bringing up once but it was twice in a grand prix. He said later it is the “worst” thing you could be asked to do. But here you are arguing that every team would do it (Force India did not), that Ferrari did with no actual proof they did (there was no team order), and that it effectively doesn’t matter, when clearly to Bottas it does. Keep in mind Lewis Hamilton has ignored this same methodology in the past to suit his own fancy (last year), and it’s just a weak-willed, baseless argument. We saw last year that Nico let his team mate past because his team mate Lewis couldn’t overtake him, Lewis collected points because of it, and then disobeyed the team later in the season. Fool me once… by the way, you’re discussing this when the driver you are touting (Hamilton) complains about unfairness at every turn when things don’t go his way. Bottas has no contract, is under far more pressure, and has to concede. Equal team mates my foot.

67

Cheesypoof. Twice in one race, or to put it another way Mercedes have used team orders ar one Grand Prix this year.
Force India tried repeatedly to get Sergio to move over for Esteban in Canada, and his refusal cost them a likely podium, in Baku they didn’t call off the battle between their drivers and it might have cost them a one two! To compare like for like you need to come up with an example of a team with one driver having a chance of winning and the other having none.
Im not saying Ferrari issued a team order, just that they gave Seb the best strategy, despite him running second behind his team mate. This is a fact. Yet again you choose to twist what people say to suit your objective, I said that letting Lewis through in Bahrain made no difference to Valterri’s finishing position, not that he didnt mind doing it. His post race comments are about his dissapointment with his own performance causing the team order to be inevitable, not with yhe team for giving it.
Lewis ignored an order to increase his pace last year, not an order to let Nico through. Two very different situations, but ultimately his actions did not affect Mercedes’ finishing position in that race.
We saw last year Nico let his team mate through, again because he was so much slower than him, nobody can overtakf at Monaco without taking a big risk, so again Mercedes did exactly what Ferdari and all the others would have done and switched their drivers to try snd improve their overall finishing position. You keep saying that Lewis gets the advantage of team orders, but doesn’t return the favour but he has never cost any team points by refusing a team order and he has never been two seconds a lap slower than his team mate.
Bottas has the same contract for next year that Kimi does, but he does have the added bonus of driving for a team that does not and will not strategically hamper him if he finds himself leading.

68

What on earth is your point? I’m the one twisting words? I’ve literally stated facts. Ferrari have yet to issue a team order. Your theories are simply that, theories. Hamilton in Bahrain alone benefitted from team orders twice, he needed the assistance both times, not just once, and Bottas suffered for it, not just mentally (as he’s already stated) but one could argue points-wise since now he is in with a shot at the title. When you say Bottas was unaffected thats only a claim that you make after the fact, obviously during a race this is not predetermined. This is exactly similar to Nico letting Hamilton through in Monaco, simply because he didn’t have to, he could have held him back and would have benefitted in the Title race. Lewis didn’t assist Nico later in the year, so listening to the team isn’t mandatory it seems. So why should anyone listen? It’s the simple basis of any agreement or partnership, and why he can probably never co-exist with a competent team-mate without having something to whine about on social media, criticising his mechanics, etc. It’s happened with every team-mate bar one, Heikki, who has already stated the minute he joined Mclaren he was the number 2 driver.

69

There could be only one reason for Ferrari to leave Kimi out in the manner they did in Austria, and it wasn’t to aid Kimi’s own race.

70

Thanks James.

Wonder if Pirelli regret accepting demand for softer compounds and will refuse in the future- you’d have to think so. Shame really

71

Tiff. The compounds are harder this year than last tear, not softer.

72

Agree, fair play to them, their calcs were right after all.. Maybe they should trust them more and just leave it to the teams to decide whether or not to gamble in this way more often.

73
The Grape Unwashed

Vettel’s race was compromised by losing a position to Verstappen at the start and then by pitting early to make the undercut on Verstappen, which meant he had a longer second stint than ideal on the soft tyres.

If think Verstappen had such a good race he is deserving of more than a footnote about his impact on Vettel. If Ricciardo could overtake faster Mercedes-powered cars on the straights thanks to DRS, it’s staggering that Vettel couldn’t use the same technique to overtake Verstappen’s much slower car – this was a brilliant performance from Verstappen, and for me the most entertaining bit of the race!

A word about Ferrari’s tyre wear, Vettel made a point of explaining before the race that Ferrari were significantly quicker than Mercedes through Copse – that would also have translated into increased wear on the front lefts. The other side of the coin is that by working their tyres hard Ferrari have had the advantage at several races this season (especially Sochi and Monaco).

74

Just like his teammate kept the late charging HAM in the turned up top mode fastest car in F1 at bay the race before. DRS is just about right at most circuits, with good use of the battery horses providing some defence, but generally allows the faster car and driver to pass if they are good enough.

75

Renault customer engines have more power than merc customer engines.Remember once in 14 cannot remember which track but Massa was in front with about 5laps to go then pitted for tyres.Knew then merc customer teams were not allowed to win.

76

Scott, you must be referring to the 2014 Abu Dhabi GP. Felipe took the lead on lap 32 when Lewis pitted ahead of him, but he was always going to lose that lead when he had to pit himself. Felipe came in with 12 laps to go, not five, and it was because he had to, not because Mercedes told him to!

77

@ Scott…any evidence to support that allegation vis a vis renault versus mercedes? As has been mentioned all mercedes customers now have the updated engines.

78

I’m not sure about that scott -the Williams has been the fastest in a straight line (of any team) almost every year in the hybrid era, although they have put more wing on this year trying to balance the cornering.
RB and a certain extent TR, have much more drivability, but that comes from the chassis.

79

There was nothing interesting about it, as moving under braking is a type of defence he uses which is just rubbish, he had a piss poor race as once Vettel undercut him he left him for dead till his tyres failed.

80

Rockie, while I’m pleased to see another driver getting your unique brand of performance appraisal, I would ask that you rewatch Max going around the outside of Seb at the start, very interesting!

81

he had a piss poor race as once Vettel undercut him he left him for dead till his tyres failed.

The good thing here Rockie, is though you’re clearly disappointed you haven’t lost your dignity 😉

82
The Grape Unwashed

Verstappen was driving within the rules. Vettel was in a much faster car with the benefit of DRS along the very long Hanger Straight, it’s pretty amazing that Verstappen managed to hold him off.

83

@ Rockie…well said and also very true.

84

Aside from actually finishing I don’t think there was anything remarkable of Verstappen’s race other that he managed to get by Vettel twice in the first lap and then proceeded to block him for 18 laps using all of his tricks and even leaving the race track a few times to just stay ahead of Vettel. Once the Ferrari went into the pits Max for the undercut Max was unable to pick up the pace to cover him off. Obviously the slightly slow pit stop didn’t help the situation either. Vettel then drove about the same times as the leaders ahead of him, and Bottas was not able to pull out a sufficient gap before the pit stop. But then of course with the faster fresh tires and some extra Power Vettel was severely compromised and although he tried to defend and Bottas went the same way off as Verstappen did, to stay with Vettel on his first attempt which then led to the flat spot on the Ferrari. Now Hindsight is 20/20, however I did think while watching the race that Vettel should have pitted right then and there to keep his options towards the end of the race open, but of course that would’ve meant to lose position to Max and hope that his tires degrade enough to get by him.

Regarding Vettel being much faster through Copse. On Thursday all the drivers were asked repeatably if they would do Copse flat out this year. And I did notice that Lewis kept saying that it would be possible, but doing so would compromise lap time. I wonder if that was maybe a puzzle piece to his success this weekend, to know when to give up speed to gain more elsewhere.
I’m still hopeful that this weekend was the low spot for Vettel and that I might be able to repeat his RBR form where he usually got stronger in the second half of the season. Of course now are RBR are closer and there are grid penalties looming.

85
The Grape Unwashed

and Bottas went the same way off as Verstappen did, to stay with Vettel on his first attempt which then led to the flat spot on the Ferrari

You seem to be under the impression these drivers (Verstappen and Bottas) unfairly short cut the circuit? In truth Vettel pushed both off to try to prevent them overtaking him, so I find it hard to sympathise that he also flat-spotted his tyres! Verstappen simply out-drove Vettel in a slower car last weekend.

86

I disagree. The way that corner goes, it allows overdriving because the track comes back if you go across the curbs. Unfortunately we only get in car footage or the one angle off this corner. A few over head shots from a helicopter show the nature of this corner pretty well. Therefore although Seb legitimately out braked MAX and put his car on the racing line inside Verstappen, Max could just go off track knowing that there will be no consequence when he comes back on track next to Vettel and then having the inside line he can brake late and force Vettel off the track in the slow left right kink after. This is what happens when all runoff areas are asphalt and going off has almost no consequence. Vice versa with Bottas first attempt. He hadn’t build enough offset speed to Vettel and yet he tried it anyway from too far back to go around the outside. There was no reason for Vettel to concede the racing line. The next lap Bottas set it up much better and passed Vettel already on the straight leading into the corner, using its better tires and the Mercedes power.

87

The only reason he got by Seb was Kimi held him up

88

That is Max, a bit of a bully on defensive side. Everybody got a taste of it.
Ferrari chances were compromised from the start. Based on reports brakes were one of the reasons.

89
The Grape Unwashed

Vettel pushed two drivers off the track, so it’s a bit rich to moan about Verstappen being a bully. Max is driving within the rules, i.e. fairly.

90

In fact I enjoy Max, he is up on my list, so no moaning.
And yes, he is a bit of a bully, it is in his blood, like father like son, or close to it. Just keep watching him…

91

Max’s moves under braking are not right, but on Sunday Vettel pushed Max off first, then Max kept his foot in, and kept the place. Danny Sullivan even said that they couldn’t penalize Max for leaving the track, because Vettel had given him no room.

92

I think that’s a very good point about tyre wear Grape.

This year seems to have reversed the established pattern that Merc work their tyres harder than Ferrari.

93

I only have one question in mind…why is Ferrari falling behind? Something related to the culture, mentality? Internal politics to the highest level? Lack of clear leadership and guidance? Sad to watch them falling behind while Mercedes becoming stronger and stronger. It looks like Merc will dominate the rest of the season and Hamilton will win his 4th title. His achievement will be better than the one of Vettel. Interested to see when will Ferrari finally win…if at all. The title, I mean…

94

I doubt it has anything to do with Ferrari dropping their in season development. They have lacked on this since pretty much 2009 in my opinion, but in this case, I do believe it has more to do with Mercedes actually managing to unluck full potential of their car, rather than Ferrari’s updates not delivering.

Still, next track is Hungary. Ferrari should be able to strike there, given its short wheelbase car. However, we should not forget that Hamilton is somewhat of a Hungaroring specialist.

95

They will rise to the top again one day. Nothing lasts forever.

96

Like Williams, like Lotus, like Brabham? Oh, wait…

97

I tend to disagree that HAM’s achievement will be greater than VET’s if he wins his 4th title.
The almost instant success of Bottas proves that you can put a journeyman into that car and he will instantly be able to fight for wins and titles. Anyone of the present grid short of Stroll and Ericson [actually, we may as well include them too] will fly in the current Merc and be a champ like Rosberg.

This puts Lewis’s multi-title career in some perspective. For me, Seb edges Lewis.

98

Agreed Phil Glass, we have yet to see Hamilton win a race in a ‘Toro Rosso’ kind of car.

99

Cyber. Lewis is too good to drive a mid field car.

100

Phil. Valterri’s instant success is validation of Merc’s efforts to get the best driver they could, and he certainly is no “journeyman”. Lets not forget that Webber won plenty of races as Seb’s team mate, and if reliability had been any closer to even than it was at Merc last year, that Nico would have been beaten hust as soundly as he was for the preceding three years.

101

Come on. Bottas is no sludge. He did very well generally at Williams a d Massa could not break him. You also forget that but for the Mechanical breakdowns of Lewis Roberg would not have been WDC last year. Also other than Webber who else could have beaten Vettel. Ok Alonso one year due to other factors. You guys may not like Lewis”s perceived behaviour but you have to give him credit for his achievements and ability.

102

Vettel is not on the same level as Hamilton or Alonso, not as complete and versatile. He is super good, but he doesn’t stand out the same way.

103

Thats a really interesting thought, who’s world titles would be the greater achievement. That redbull with its aero was way ahead of the pack and pretty dominant, and at times it did seem like vettel was favoured by the team over his team mate, remember the swapped front wing for webbers and not to mention multi 21, webber made no secret that he felt like a number 2 driver to seb. True the Mercedes has had that power advantage but i think rosberg proved last year he was no mug and his qualifying pace was always a test for lewis. For me the pivotal factor in that lewis has won with 2 teams and that the year he won with mcclaren, it was ferrari who had the stronger car and won the constructors, Which i think is the last time we’ve had a driver win the championship in a car which has not won the constructors championship, i can’t remember the last time that happened. And so for that reason i think Hamilton’s is probably the greater achievement, but only just. As for who’s the better driver in an identical car i don’t think there’s anything between them, both great racers, would be great to see it.

104
Stephen Taylor

Think it is is a bit disingenuous to call Bottas a Journeyman. If he was in this mid 30s race for several teams and not won a single race i’d agree. with you but that is not the case. Bottas is potential WDC material. Somebody has to drive the best cars otherwise they’d all be journeymen.

105

Massa is a journeyman. He couldn’t even win a championship in the fastest car against the fragile Lewis. Even Nico managed that.

106

Bottas is 27, a bit premature to write him off!

107

Hello, do fragile people make it to the top in the most high pressure sport on the planet?

108

Bottas might be a late bloomer but he did not win any F1 race until he got into that Mercedes.

109

Cyber, and Kimi didn’t win in the Sauber, Fernando didn’t win in the Minardi etc etc

110

Has Hamilton ever won any F1 race without the power of the three pointed star? … Mercedes-Benz.

How does that old saying go which ends in “Statistics”?

111

Stephen, it does seem that some people don’t understand the meaning of the word “journeyman”.

112

In the world of sports a journeyman is a sports player who is reliable but not outstanding. Aka “a solid journeyman professional”.
This describes very well Bottas and his F1 career so far.

113
Stephen Tay;or

Not true read Tim W’s comment. A journey man driver would be a driver whose never won a GP(or not for years). You can only define a driver a as journey once they finish there career. How do you know VB not have the capacity to be outstanding? Do you have a crystal ball?

114

As I wrote ‘…and his F1 career so far.’

Bottas did btw not win for years, so all good so far for defining him as a journeyman. That said, I would really like to se him move up to be outstanding! The potential could be there.

115

Cyber, in F1 terms a journyman is a driver who roams around the teams and seems to always be looking for a drive.

116

Yes, because Vettel was the only possible driver who could win in those incredible RBRs from 2011 to 2013… 🙃

You may want to consider what happened during the 2014 season as well!

117

Seb had no. 1 status at RBR from 2011 on. Webber wasn’t going to be allowed to challenge, after they almost blew getting both titles in 2010.

Ricciardo’s comprehensive demolition of Seb in 2014 did much to clarify his ranking in the overall driver pecking order. Hamilton and Alonso have never been manhandled like that.

Bottas has been better than Hamilton at two races this year … Russia & Monaco. That’s a pretty clear performance advantage for Lewis.

118

KRB, you appear to one of the many who use the RIC VET pairing as gospel according to the data. Red Bull management knew their 4xWDC was Red Car headed and made a management decision based on loyalty. Not so much sabotage as team management. Rightly so. Next someone will be along suggesting the only reason Rosberg out scored Hamilton last season was because MB fixed it.

Whilst none of us will ever really know exactly what goes on behind those closed doors, not to be confused with timely sanitised “official” press release statements later, lots of “unusual” things go on behind closed doors for numerous team management reasons. Not just loyalty. Of course, the fact that RIC’s car was disqualified from the podium on advantageous fuel rate delivery issues was pure unfortunate coincidence. Aus GP was it … theold memory aint what it was. . ,… Obviously …then there was .. Oh forget it. Obviously the Toothsome and likeable Aussie is massively superior to “lucky” right place, right time Vettel.

One thing Ricciardo most certainly is now, is a much more mature and thoughtful”safe hands” driver and Horner and the rest of the Red Bull management will do well to hold onto him. Less so his current team mate ~ get a good price form him and let him go. I think the latter will come to pass sooner rather than later despite “official” Red Bull statements.

After all, tis business and not simply about the drivers who are merely over-hyped ( some more than others ) highly paid pawns in the serious bigger game of business chess. Mercedes-Benz are currently winning that according to the stats. Which never lie… 😉

Finally, the bare stats and data is rarely proof positive one way or the other.

119

RBR management knew Vettel was leaving? At which point? Vettel hadn’t exercised his break clause, and Fernando still had two years on his Ferrari contract! To speak like that is fact is truly bizarre.

It emerged when RIC was given the drive in 2013 that he had beaten Seb’s times in the simulator.

No driver would ever want to be so thoroughly shown up, as Vettel was by Ricciardo in 2014. It started as soon as Bahrain & China which was after Daniel’s DSQ in AUS and his drive-through in Malaysia (and 10 place grid drop for BHN). If RBR were fixing it for Dan early doors, then they were doing a horrible job of it!

Vettel now is holding out for Kimi as his tag-along. Why is that? Seb knows he cannot afford another 2014.

120

“To speak like that is fact is truly bizarre.”

No more bizarre than those who take the “official” press releases as gospel. Additionally, compounding that without access to what really goes one behind closed doors at both Red Bull and Ferrari irrespective of content of any contract. After all both those drivers were obviously very happy at their then current locations. If you ignore what was allowed to escape to the open source media.

Believe what you like. That is your valid choice…. and mine.

I bet you still believe the Ferrari is the faster car and as suggested recently elsewhere in other major F1 media outlets, Mercedes-Benz F1 cars are …and here I quote … “Underdogs”. After all, the evidence certainly points to that.

121

Totally agree. Both had dominant cars but Mercedes dominance over these last few years dwarfs Red Bulls. It’s not even close from a performance perspective.

122

Agree, the fastest car have advantage to covering the diver mistakes.
F1 2014 and 15, mercs could mess quali and still win miles away but not today.

123

Cheesypoof, an advantage is an advantage. If your car is three tenths quicker than anyone elses, you will win just as you would if your car is five tenths quicker.

124

Your example of Bottas can be applied to almost any driver in a 2nd car of a championship-winning team. Didn’t Webber almost win in 2010? Leading until he choked 3 races from the end?

I think Seb is a great driver, but I also think that in 20 years, we’ll look back upon this period of time and most experts will probably rate Lewis as better, partly because he’s had better teammates, Alonso and Nico. Nico was also teammates to Schumi and he fared quite well, though Schumi was past his best by then. Lewis also has more wins, more poles, won even with fairly average cars from McLaren in 2010 and 11. Seb doesn’t seem as able to drive around a chassis he doesn’t like, as in 2014.

125

I think (and hope) that we are still to see great racing and results the coming years from both Vettel and Hamilton! The one to win the overall ‘inter personal rating game’ will probably be determined by who fares the best the coming seasons ahead of us. And how they both match up against the new generation of top drivers coming through.

126

How do you factor in The longer calendar that now exist into the equation? Of course Lewis will have more poles with so many races now on calendar where Senna and Schumacher accumulated it over many seasons Lewis has gone up in a very few relatively speaking.

127

Phil,
I tend to agree there was a lot more competition (except 2013) in Vettels titles, and he didn’t get beaten by a teammate.

128

Lkfe, but then Seb’s team mates are always surprisingly elderly, its almost as if he likes them that way….

129

If we are to believe what we see in the F1 press, Vettel and Raikkonen appear to get on well together. Almost as chummy as the Alonso Hamilton pairing back in 2007. was it? .. ;-). After all, when asked who are the best drivers in the pit lane, the answer came back Alonso and Hamilton … according to themselves… 😉 How about that? That when Vettel quickly accumulated four WDCs on the bounce. Talk about professional jealousy. Just look at Alonso’s face in one of the images back then. Yes, agreed, it’s ALWAYS primarily about the car irrespective of who is pushing the pedals, paddles and twiddling the steering bars. Wheels they aint. 🙂 Them days long gone …;-)

130

Webber is a better driver than Ros and Bott!

131

Lkfe. Is he? Was he? Mark was 34 in 2010 when the Red Bull steam roller began, and 38 when it finished. Nico was 28 in 2014, the same age Valterri is now. Do we think drivers peak performance occurs in their mid to late thirties, or earlier? I remember watching an interview with Mark where he was refreshingly candid about “losing a sniff in qualifying” due to his age, so even if we think that Mark was better than Nico and Valterri (and I would have them all on a similar level), then we arent really comparing like with like are we?

132

It is very difficult to make exact comparisons. The fact the some of Vettels championships were close could be explained by Vettel having a poor year in the fastest car. Masking the true dominance of the RB. The thing is Webber was past his best and we did not really see Vettel challenged that often by his team mate. That is until Dan, and we all know what happened that year…..

133

Jake the snake, not knowing is half the fun isn’t it? You are correct in saying that making exact comparisons are difficult, there are far too many variables to accurately rate the drivers from our armchairs.

134

Well said TimW. Have a posi-+

Awarded strictly on merit of content and no obvious fan boy blind bias.

Currently watching the Tour on ITV4. Chris Froome just started today’s stage. Wish him luck. I enjoy British successes and looking forward to more of that from a certain Mercedes driver.

Bring it on.

135

Hi James, if the Drs effect was that powerful then why couldn’t a four times world champion with a faster car not overtake a teenager with weaker power unit, I don’t understand?

137

That’s any easy one,…………..Max Verstappen.

138

Depends where the car is faster. The Ferrari is the faster car all sectors combined and in free air, but the speed delta the red bull carried through the curves meant it had a ‘head start’ as it were on the straights. The delta was not enough. Verstappen was defending for all he was worth whereas the lower order cars had no real reason to fight Danny Ric because their real race was not with him.

139

@ Aezy doc..’.their race was not with him [ricciardo]’ nonsense, they should be fighting for track position when being challenged. That is the first order of F1…never give up a place voluntarily.

140

Very often places are given up without a fight Kenneth. First rule is get to the end as quick as you can and not compromise your own race in a battle you can’t win. Ricciardo drove a great race, but he didn’t encounter anyone offering real resistance.

141

never give up a place voluntarily

You must have been watching something else kenneth – the pit wall often will say words to the effect of not getting into a race with someone or other as that isn’t their race. Commentary remark upon it as well.

142

@ C63….Never give up a place without some sort of resistance. You should know that all kinds of variables exist…look at the final couple of laps on sunday! To relinquish a position voluntarily shows lack of competitive spirit. That’s my opinion and no matter how many pit wall calls there are i will not alter it. As an example, Verstappen, despite being challenged by a faster Ferrari on sunday made a fight of it and has been lauded for his actions. That is what i am talking about in both theory and practice.

143

Verstappen fighting Vettel was a battle worth fighting, as that was the race Verstappen was in. But aesy is exactly right kenneth – a car that’s likely to finish in or around the top 10 is just losing time trying to resist a quick car that has qualified out of position. They are simply going to compromise their own race which is with other cars of a similar performance. That’s not trying to detract from Ricci’s performance, but it is most certainly the reality of the situation.

144

Kenneth I agree that it’s better to watch cars fight for position but your argument about what is the first order of F1 is wrong. Maybe it’s what it should be, or what your preference is, but it is demonstrably not the reality. Verstappen fought a fight that he could have conceivably (and ultimately did) win. A Sauber fighting a Mercedes (as a hypothetical) for P13 on a track like Silverstone is not a battle they are going to win and it would simply compromise their own race meaning a lower finishing position overall- which is silly. Not resisting an inevitable pass happens very often in F1 and other categories of sport and to suggest otherwise is naive. No one jumped out of Ricciardo’s way when they could make a decent defence (was it Grosjean at Luffield?) but why would you resist the inevitable to the detriment of your own race? That said, I agree that it is a better spectacle when Alonso makes his McLaren as wide as possible just because he can.

145

I think you boys are getting a taster of just how wrong Kenny can be, but still refuse to accept it….

146

@ Aezy Doc…. Nothing naive about my comment at all.It matters zip where you are in the pecking order, you never give a place away by standing aside. If a faster car comes then you maintain your pace and line and if they pass you then so be it. It is not a foregone conclusion that you lose track position by defending however if you choose to ‘aggressively’ defend and lose pace then that would be stupid. You should really read what i have said before you criticise.

147

@ Aezy doc…you’re twisting my words. You defend your position by maintaining line and pace…you know ‘defending your track position’. How many times do you see drivers making it too easy by leaving the door open. Once again, read my words and think it through. Your comments are unwarranted. My opinion is just that.

148

No kenneth, no twisting. You described what I said as nonsense. Now you agree with me. Plain as day, you have backtracked from your original position. That’s it.

149

@Aezy doc…you’re still dreaming. Nothings changed..you just wish to reinterpret what i’ve said to suit your purpose. If you can’t accept that then that is your problem.

150

Way to backtrack. You should be a politician.
I’m not criticising. You are entitled to your opinion, but try to be consistent.

Here is what you wrote…
‘nonsense’
‘they should be fighting for track position when being challenged’
‘Never give up a place without some sort of resistance’
And now you have changed that to ‘never stand aside’ ‘maintain your pace and line’.

No one said anything about standing aside, so now you are arguing a straw man you have created in your own head.

Again, I am not criticising, simply pointing out inconsistencies in your argument. It’s OK to admit you were wrong or at least realise that you failed to communicate well. I’ve done so in the past and you have done so here. No biggie.

I think we agree that Verstappen was right to defend and it was good to see. It was not an inevitable pass by the Ferrari. It did, however cost Verstappen lap time (this is important to note as a rear order car would also lose time in defending) but it forced Ferrari into an early stop and had consequences later on. Verstappen was in a genuine race with Vettel.
It would make no sense for Alonso to defend in such a manner against Ricciardo at this track. He would lose lap time in doing so, compromising his real battle with other midfield and rear running teams. It might even gain lap time by letting Ricciardo through and following his tow. It makes sense for Alonso to take the short term loss for the sake of the overall gain. No one is saying anything about jumping to the side, moving over or whatever. Simply not fighting the inevitable and, far from being nonsense, happens all the time.
I reiterate that to claim it doesn’t, to brand my point as nonsense is either naive, facile, or wrong.

151

When you look deeper or understand racing you will understand why that didn’t happen instead of trying to take a dig, I’m sure you had the same question in Melbourne when Hamilton could not get past him in that race.

152

Out-raced by an incredible talent is what..

153

The key to doing well was having strong front tyre stability through the high-speed esses at Maggots/Becketts, which gave a good exit onto the Hangar Straight for an overtake into Stowe corner. We saw speed differentials of over 30km/h there between cars with and without DRS, but only if the front tyres were holding on.

Because the Red Bull has a better front end than the Ferrari.

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