BP Castrol deal the latest change in McLaren’s year of F1 renewal
Posted By: Editor   |  10 Feb 2017   |  12:18 pm GMT  |  113 comments

There have been a number of high-profile changes in Formula 1 during the off-season, and many of them have occurred at McLaren.

After Ron Dennis’ high-profile boardroom dismissal in late 2016, the Woking-based squad appointed Zak Brown as its new executive director, announced that its new car will drop the MP4 moniker and there is speculation that it will adopt some form of orange livery for its 2017 challenger.

The team’s CEO Jost Capito, a Dennis appointee, left McLaren earlier this week and its team manager Dave Redding was confirmed as joining Williams later this year.

Eric Boullier

In a Q&A with McLaren’s official website, the team’s racing director Eric Boullier discussed the many transformations that have occurred ahead of the new season, and he explained that change had long been a part of the team’s history and hinted that more alterations could be expected as part of its drive to improve its F1 standing.

He said: “I think you have to realise that Formula 1 is all about change. Change is what drives our sport – change in drivers, in regulations, in races, in almost everything. Second, I think it’s worth emphasising that McLaren in particular has always been about change.

“From our roots in the 1960s, it was change that drove our successes in Can-Am, in IndyCar and at Le Mans. It was change that led McLaren to become an automotive constructor. And it was change that transformed McLaren from a race team into an international, multi-faceted technology group.

“And we’ll change again and again and again as we continue to improve our fortunes both on and off the track.

Redding (centre) with Kevin Magnussen and Jenson Button in 2014.

Redding (centre) with Kevin Magnussen and Jenson Button in 2014.

Boullier also explained that McLaren had not attempted to block Redding’s move to Williams given his long-standing ties to the team. Former chief mechanic Paul James will replace Redding, who will fulfil a factory role at McLaren until he moves on in the middle of the year.

“Dave was offered an opportunity with another team, and we didn’t want to stand in his way,” said Boullier. “Let’s not forget, he’s been at McLaren for 17 years, and I think we’ll always fondly consider him a McLaren man, even when we see him wearing another team’s uniform in the paddock later this year. We’ve been discussing this together for some time; it’s not a sudden decision, and we’re happy for him.”

Andrea Stella, McLaren’s head of race operations, will be more involved in the team’s race strategy and liaise with FIA this year, and Kari Lammenranta, Fernando Alonso’s former number one mechanic, will replace James as chief mechanic. These changes reflect Boullier’s work to make McLaren’s personnel more international.

McLaren confirms BP Castrol technical collaboration

In another new development for McLaren, its widely expected partnership with BP and Castrol, which will take over supply the British squad’s F1 fuel and lubricants, was confirmed today.


The deal also includes BP and Castrol providing products for McLaren’s automotive division, its Mazak-powered machine shop and dynamic chassis rig.

Speaking as the news was announced, Jonathan Neale, chief operating officer, of the McLaren Technology Group, said: “This agreement between McLaren, BP and Castrol is between brands who both share a long-standing and well-recognised passion for innovation in all we do. Our McLaren-Honda team provides a global platform for Castrol to supply bespoke advanced lubricant technology.”

BP and Castrol have already announced a deal with the Renault team to supply the Enstone-based squad with its products from the start of 2017.

Golden prize for young F1 fan

F1’s reputation for technology driven racing and total competition has earned the paddock the nickname of the ‘piranha club’, but it does have a human side.

Eric Boullier

In collaboration with the Starlight children’s charity, Boullier surprised one young F1 fan with a ticket to the launch of the team’s MCL32.

Boullier visited the home of Oliver and handed him a personalised ticket to the unveiling of the 2017 McLaren, the MCL32, which will be officially launched on 24 February, the same day as Ferrari will reveal its 2017 challenger.

What do you make of the changes going on at McLaren? Do you expect the team to make a step forward in 2017? Leave your thoughts in the comment section below or head over to the JA on F1 Facebook page for more discussion.

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Sorry to hear about the dropping of the MP4. To me it makes a break from Bruce McLaren. A great pity to lose that connection to their founder and a great Kiwi driver.


Huh? MP4 originally stood for Marlboro Project 4 at the beginning (1981).

If they want to go back to the naming at the start, it would be M52A – M for McLaren, 52 for their 52nd season in F1, and A because it’s the first iteration of the car in that year.


Forcing out Ron Dennis was not about “renewal”. It was about shareholder ego’s.


Did Eric say MCL32A?


mclaren will only do well if the ditched honda and know on bmw’s door, get them to return with their engines to stir up f1.
pairing up with honda is a career ending move like hamilton snr rightly said..


Honda will be good this year…..you seem to forget that we had the token system in place the last three seasons. [Mod] can build good engines.


token system or no token system, honda has no chance..
they should’ve copied mercedes from day one. by now they would’ve had a better understanding instead of now trying to understand how certain systems work.


So Zak Brown, marketing guru’s first big move is to align with the company that let an open oil well flow millions of gallons of raw crude into the Gulf of Mexico then give the guy responsible a golden handshake adios into the sunset. McLaren are dead to me, just like the millions of seabirds and fish and swamp critters along the Louisiana coastline. They’re still cleaning up. Maybe Zak could organise a corporate day and get all the McLaren factory staff down to the beach with a shovel and big plastic bag. I will now NOT be buying the new McLaren.


Hmm.. Mazak has longstanding relation with McLaren but haven’t seen their (ORANGE) logo on the car. Maybe this year it will fit into the 2017 color scheme

Green/red castrol with white background would complement the orange too.

Since Cristiano Ronaldo has done commercials for Castrol, will we see him at the races?


I hope they have made the Honda Hybrid Engine significantly faster and MUCH more reliable. They need better aerodynamics too. Still, the trouble with F1 is you gain four seconds and so does everyone else. The big difference this year is the ability to work on the car for the whole season IF Honda has the engineering vision and talent they should be in the top four or five this year.


“Do you expect the team to make a step forward in 2017? ”
Well it depends on Honda really. Aero changes mean that more power is required this season.
Strange that there was no mention of Honda from McLaren.

It will be a different team now with no Ron. Even if they win it will not feel right.


As someone who’s rooting for McLaren for more than 30 years it was a sacrilege kicking Ron and MP4 tag out.
But if all these changes pan out I’m all for it, no one is above the team, no one is irreplaceable.


“It was change that led McLaren to become an automotive constructor. And it was change that transformed McLaren from a race team into an international, multi-faceted technology group.”

Funny. They’ve decided to white-wash Dennis from history by calling him change.


Aaaand… zak brown has now announced he doesn’t expect any wins in 2017. But the good news… it’ll be an orange car…


‘We don’t expect any wins in ’17!!! we do expect wins in ’18 though’. That seems to me to be like utter tosh rather than seriously competent technologicly based forecasting. What is it that they know now that they can’t possibly introduce to this seasons car until ’18 ? Really, anyone can say that and it is meaningless unless qualified.


Not completely I reckon they will keep it largely grey or black with orange accents

It’s a heck of a departure to go all orange

But it’s got people talking!


I just don’t understand, because to me the livery on the Mclaren is the best looking on the grid. Maybe because they have no sponsors.. but I do wonder why the change now. Then next year if and when they get a title sponsor.. who knows if it’ll match. Hopefully this isn’t all just change for changes sake…

Gareth (the Philadelphia one)

I live near a McLaren road car dealership and the traditional carrot puke orange is quite popular.

Orange race car please!


I’m not overly fond of the carrot puke orange – I wouldn’t go so far as to say I don’t like it, but it wouldn’t be my first choice. I like volcano red – particularly when the sun shines on it.


@ James…yes, we all need something to talk about as the racing is still a very long way off.


Um… ExxonMobil is a much bigger company than BP. I don’t see how a bigger company moving to a better team (RedBull) is good news to Mclaren. I mean… it is a joke if they play it off as a choice.


And Petronas is smaller than Exxon, Shell, BP, Total, and Petrobras. Forget about the mother companies, and just look at their respective F1 operations.


This could be the most exciting part of the season, waiting to find out if there will be any real competition at the front of the grid this year (like an oasis in the desert of a three-year drought)!

There’s one (more) thing that I am a little bit fuzzy about, how each team getting a new fuels/lubricants supplier is expecting gains from the new relationship, even though the new fuels/lubricants partner was the old fuels/lubricants partner for another team, who is also looking forward to gains with their new fuels/lubricants partner.
Isn’t the change of fuels/lubricants partnerships really more about global branding alliances and not really very much about technical changes.
Because if there are winners in the fuels/lubricants partners musical chairs, isn’t there also losers?
Or is it a possible win-win-win-win scenario?


I can see honda matching renault this year with their new engine layout. Add To That THE HYBRID System that was one of the best last year. Mercedes and redbull then mclaren and ferrari battling to be 3rd quickest.


@ Mark…what is their new engine layout and where are the major changes? I presume that you are actually talking about the actual engine and not the old news about turbo layout?


Ferrari have a better engine than Renault. So I’d put it this way Mercedes Ferrari then Red Bull and Mclaren fighting for 3rd . Heavier cars require more grunt so anything with a Renault engine will be lacking grunt even of Red Bulls is masquerading as a skin Tag.


Rupert: Helmut Marko has stated with some confidence that Red Bull’s (Renault’s) PU will be the equal of Ferrari’s if not by Melbourne at least by Spain. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.


Bespoke advanced lubrication technology! That’s why Mclaren needed to change . Honestly. James could you ask Oliver to ask how long BP & Castrol have been working on the Petrol and oil project ?


Here we go again, dynamic new colour scheme, radical new name, focused stripes, streamlined branding, whole new approach, etc, etc


MCL32, a radical new name?

No no no Grubbie. WCC32 would be radical. FASTEST32 would be radical. MCL name scheme is just a knee jerk reaction.


Just be happy they didn’t call It the McL053R




I would like to drive a Radical, apparently they are super fast.



So if 2017 turns out to be continuation of recent McLaren trend, they can blame in on a Medial Collateral Ligament injury?


I think I’ve heard Eric say MCL32A? Or?


With all these changes McLaren are going through, it’s little wonder they don’t expect to start winning till 2018.


After McHonda’s recent years I would settle on wins coming “only” in 2018 – but even then will it happen? A lot will depend on how Honda improve to be become a genuine force. Otherwise I don’t know where to for McLaren. Tense times for them. It’s really 2018 or never I think ….


Mchonda in fiery tangerine orange with extra alonso relish please……

Go on zac brown, bring back the satsuma livery…..


Ripe satsumas have a dark red flesh colour.


I thought black was the fastest color?


Orange is a citrus fruit, full of nutrients, goodness and healthiness. It’s associated with sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. Originally from the Far East and India, now grown (and consumed) across the Old Continent and the New World by the millions – a staple breakfast liquid for the genus of racing drivers too.

Tangerine-orange is a positive livery scheme, associating with Indian-Hindu weddings, Buddhism, warmth, Vitamin D and good times. What’s not to like?


that explains BAR


orange is the new black




Yes, orange can be ‘brilliant’ especially the ‘cadmium orange’ professional range.


Right. That’s why 2017 champion will collect his WDC trophy at the FIA gala in this.


They can and they will get back to the top and Eric Boullier should be credited with that success.
The next incarnation of the Honda power unit will help get them u hard too, I don’t see them failing a second time.
As for Ron Dennis……. undoubtedly a great force,but as we all know,a dead fish rots from the head first.


Yes and they had the best chassis on the grid last year……just not at any of the tracks on the 2016 calendar…..


Oliver’s reaction made me smile so big. F1 has a future, and the future looks bright!!!


I’m giving the kid 5 races tops before he starts cheering for another team, non McLaren driver.


He’d still be cheering for F1 @Sebee, so mem’s statement in the bright future seems valid 😉


His parents were 5 years old when McLaren last won a constructors title…..


golden ticket to the modern willy wonkas chocolate factory lol


With all the shafting that has been going on at Mclaren recently I am sure some lubricant will be received.


“well received” that should read


The same really in the Renault camp…


McLaren obviously recognise the system wasn’t working. Althow sad to see Dennis ousted in such a way. If it means McLaren on the top step again it will be worth it


we can’t predict. Merely analyse it when its done. So far, no indications if revival from marketing sign-ups.


Like it did with Luca di Montezemolo?


One would like to think that maclaren will be more competitive this season but we’ve heard it all before. What i fail to understand is this…everyone is expecting the the cars will be 4/5secs faster but if all teams master this latest round of changes then will it be simply be ‘relative’ to where they finished up last year? If for example mercedes had , in race trim, one to on and a half seconds, on maclaren then for them to even be on a par they would have to find approx 6 secs a lap! I very much doubt that it is possible. I guess that we’ll soon see where it all pans out but i am not overly enthusiastic that maclaren can do that.



I think you might be correct. McLaren’s (Honda’s) development of its PU both in terms of output and reliability over the last last two years hasn’t been particularly encouraging. Unless they’ve done something spectacular over the winter it might well be that they’ll just be another mid tier team this year and Alonso’s much coveted 3rd WDC will be even more elusive. I think it’s a great shame that he and Button have had to drive around in dud cars thereby depriving the fans of the skills these guys have in driving in F1. McLaren will be thinking that they have sufficiently improved to compete for podiums so for the sake of the competition let’s hope so and that it doesn’t just become a three horse race.

Herr Doctor Helmut Marko has conceded that Merc will still have the strongest PU on the grid but is confident that Red Bull’s will be on a par with Ferrari’s at least by Spain. Probably just talking up RB’s prospects but we’ll see.

Danny Ric was back in Perth over Christmas doing the usual media rounds and promotional and charity work and has been in the city of the angles building up his upper body strength. With these new beasts they have to push around he’ll be needing it, they all will be!


@adrian, I have been hoping that the mclaren would come good as alsonso is one of my favourite drivers. This year i am not so sure that they will be competitive at all given that based on the past performances they will need to make a quantum leap to get amongst the top 4/6 cars. This they may well do but it is a big ask. Like most though i am of the opinion that mercedes will again be the team to beat. At this point in time i know of no impediment to this happening. Even after the testing is over we’ll still be relatively, in the dark.

As for the drivers i will stick with my original opinion that hamilton will dominate, ricciardo and verstappen will be very very close to each other and the ferrari chaps will be mixing it around in there as well. but who will triumph is anyones guess. With contracts coming up for renewal in ’18 for some of those, excluding ricciardo and verstappen, there will be some vigorous jousting, of that i am sure.



“With contracts coming up for renewal in ’18 for some of those……there will be some vigorous jousting, of that I am sure.” Agreed. If Bottas doesn’t perform to the standard Mercedes expect of him or if he gets swamped by Hamilton there’ll be Alonso and Vettel standing in the wings (providing of course they don’t have successful seasons where they are). Alonso might just be a bit too far the other side of 30 though. Did you see that Rosberg has said that he would have liked Alonso to have been given the vacant Merc seat? I wonder what his motive for saying that was.


yes, i’ve had the same thought.


“if all teams master this latest round of changes then will it be simply be ‘relative’ to where they finished up last year?”

It’s possible, but unlikely.

More likely some teams will get it right while other teams fumble it, so we could end up with another mixed up field where the slowest cars are quite a long way behind the fastest cars.

It wouldn’t the first time, but so long as there are 2-3 teams that are fairly close at the front it shouldn’t matter too much so hopefully Mercedes stay put while Red Bull/Ferrari/McLaren up their game.


@ Random…my money would be on Mercedes ATM as we all know that despite them having an engine advantage they are no slouches when it come to chassis building, and they would have started very early considering that they had both championships bagged from very early on. You also need to take into account that last year we saw mercedes being able to ‘wick it’ whenever it was necessary. I very much doubt that we ever saw the ‘full enchilada’ in a manner of speaking.


We’ve heard it all before? Two years ago we heard Ron idiotically guaranteeing a title sponsor. This year we’re hearing Zak Brown generating cautious optimism while explicitly stating he doesn’t expect to win until 2018.


I agree. Seems the confidence we heard in the past from Dennis and the heads at Honda is being replaced by cautious optimism, as you put it. Much better to stay humble and over deliver. 2015 was a painful joke for McLaren after Dennis and Arai promised that Honda’s PU was going to best Ferrari and Renault. Seems like Brown and Hasegawa are much more realistic about the engine. Hasegawa flat out stated that Honda is looking to match Mercedes in terms of raw performance this year even if it means sacrificing reliability. I’d actually prefer that as it would allow Alonso and Vandoorne to challenge toward the front of the pack once in a while in between retirements, rather than lapping at the back in between retirements.


Kenneth I reckon they are the dark horse in 2017. They may surprise everyone but it all depends on Honda !
Honda can make or break Mclaren.
Their aero guy is ex-Red Bull so the car will be tight as Victoria Secrets cat walk model…but the engine is the chunk in their armour. Big time !


honda put a mercedes engine in their car and named it brawn back in2009 and cleared off with all the trophies.
honda engine is as useless as you say..


Maybe Honda have found their mojo again? At their peak 1986–91 Honda engines were world beaters. Honda supplied its engines to six consecutive constructor champions (two with Williams 1986–87 and four with McLaren 1988–91), as well as five consecutive driver championships (one by Nelson Piquet in 1987, three by Ayrton Senna in 1988, 1990 and 1991, and one by Alain Prost in 1989), before exiting F1 again.
Honda-powered cars had won 71 Grands Prix, by the end of the 1992 season.

However if the engine is not competitive, the car having a new name and some orange stickers will be better than nothing!


the people who worked at honda all those years ago are no longer there and there are new people working at their competitors’ so they haven’t got a chance.
mclaren should look to bmw if they really want to win again or get hamilton back to help them.


True those particular engineers may no longer be there, but Honda have the resources, and their potential is shown by MotoGP.

I expect them to be finishing in the top four teams, which will perhaps only be 7th or 8th, but on occasion higher due to FA.


they are not sure which engine architecture to use. how could they possibly be competitive? they sat out and watched mercedes’ performance and refused to copy their engine architecture. instaed, they went with their own crazy idea which resulted in failure. they have only now decided to copy mercedes’ architecture and aren’t even sure of the results that will bring them let alone their direction of development. they are shooting in the dark!


@BB…never mind the cars..what i want to know now is how come you can talk with such authority about Victoria’s Secrest models? That’s far more interesting than oily bits and pieces !!!


Oily bits and pieces 😁
That comment can transcend both topics Kenneth.


@ BB…Touche mon ami. I should’ve expected that haha


Well said Kenneth 😄👍
Nothing like a bit of oily bits 😄


Did you write “maclaren” three times?


Guess he was feeling Scottish at the time …


@ Miguel…and your point is?


is that you kenneth?


@ C63…yes, it was me but how does that happen? Spooky eh? Someone changing a post sig? James ?


Operator error 🙂


point is that maclaren makes baby strollers that sever children’s fingers and mclaren makes Formula 1 race cars that sever driver’s hopes of a championship.


Not understanding the fuss about Orange. McLaren’s heritage is far more than the history of Bruce McLaren’s orange livery. McLaren is a 50:50 merger with Ron Dennis’s team in the early 1980’s and far more importantly, Ron Dennis has transformed the McLaren team since with many of its historic wins under his tenure since the early 1980’s.


Ferarri, Redbull and Mercedes have all proved to a varying extent that they can sever a driver’s championship hopes with the selective use of team orders.


Sebee, it’s McLaren, not mclaren…


ah Seebee…laughing out loud!


Well Senna had a great run at Mclaren so did a few others.
Your attempt at passive humour has hit a new low Sebee. Using a children’s pram just because it’s called by the same name…though spelt slightly differently.
It’s only since they dropped Mercedes and went with Honda. Imagine if they had stuck with a Mercedes engine in last year’s slick car. They’d be winning a few GPs.
Let’s hope they back to winning ways.


First, it wasn’t passive. Humor in truth was clearly the priority. Second, they had the engine in 2014 and shamed it and themselves. I know it isn’t nice to kick someone when they are down, but this is ruthless F1. To me McLaren have been a shadow of themselves since 2000. I am amazed that somehow they didn’t fumble 2007 for Lewis, even if 2007 includes a fraudulent fixed Grand Prix result that should never have been included. Sometimes I feel a bit sorry for McLaren after Mercedes took their drivers and staff. Other times I just think those team members finally realized it was a sinking ship all along.


Eh…Sebee, don’t you mean 2008 for Lewis and that fixed Grand Prix? Why yes I do Sebee, yes I do. Proof read your rambling Sebee for errors and type-os. It ain’t hard!


They did indeed fumble 2007 for Lewis, by leaving him out too long in China. 2008 we’ve gone through ad nauseum. Ferrari pit light failure wasn’t because everything was rushed. There were 2 laps behind the SC before the pits were even opened. All crews were out and ready for their cars in plenty of time. It was a failure just waiting to happen, indeed it had already happened a few races before.

Sebee, did you see that the IOC stripped Jamaica of the 2008 Olympic gold medal for the 4 x 100m relay? Trinidad & Tobago will be promoted to the gold medal, etc. They didn’t nullify the entire event. That is how it works.

As for McLaren, I hope they come back, but I agree they haven’t been top class in a very long time. My biggest beef with them was that they always talked the talk, but never walked the walk. Win first, then gloat if you want. Until then, just shut it.


Hey KRB, a thought….

What would have happened if Nickel after handing the baton to Usain, pushes all other competitors, trips each and every one, maybe some more than others because he can’t reach them all at once. How valid would the result of that Men’s Relay 4 x 100m be after Jamaica is eliminated? That is EXACTLY what happened Singapore 2008 after Jr. hands the baton to Alonso. 100% EXACTLY what happened as he tripped up the entire field. You comparing Singapore 2008 to a single runner doping while not impacting the race and each and every other competitor on the track is ridiculous beyond the meaning of the word.


Now imagine the IOC decided that they would call the relay race at the exact moment that the Jamaican runner impeded the first competitor, and take their running order at that instant as the final results? Would that ever happen? It would be ridiculous, wouldn’t it? And they most certainly would not nullify the entire event. That would be absurd.

Would Ferrari or any other competitor have to come into the pits sometime during that race? Of course, so it’s not like it pushed all the teams into uncharted territory. If anyone was tripped up, it was the likes of Rosberg and Kubica who had to pit while the pits were closed, thus incurring penalties for both of them. Piquet Jr didn’t crash into anyone on purpose, like Schumacher did with Villeneuve in ’97, or Hill in ’94. So your analogy doesn’t apply. Every other competitor was faced with the same adversity introduced by the PIquet Jr crash. That some navigated through it better than others, is no fault of Piquet’s or Renault.

In this past Olympics, we saw the American women 4 x 100m relay team drop the baton during their race, then protest it claiming interference from the Brazilians. The Brazilians were disqualified, the Americans were successful in their protest, and were made to run another race, just them, to see if they could beat the time of the then 8th best team, which was China. They did beat that time, and so made it through to the final.

You see what happened there? There was a known path for lodging protests and appeals, and mechanisms in place to deal with infractions. There is too in F1, though I think they could and should be better. The FIA and Renault went through them. The Crashgate case never went to the CAS, which is the final jurisdiction for these cases. Massa and Ferrari could have launched legal challenges, yet both declined to do so.

Still waiting for you to find one case where anything like what you propose has ever happened. In the multitude of sporting events that have transpired around the world daily, for over 3 decades (CAS was founded in 1984), surely there must be ONE such instance comparable to what you suggest? If not, I guess the question to ask then is why there hasn’t been one.


How is it that you have a hard time grasping fairness in different scenarios KRB? One solution does not fit all. What works for relay doesnt work for F1. In a sport like 4×100 Jamaica did not interfere with any other team or cross the line as they would have been DQed immediately. Every other team got to run their race fairly without influence of Jamaica. Jamaica cheating discovery was a black and white path toward correcting it fairly. They cheated, they are out, next team is in.

What Renault did in 2008 Singapore is completely different because quite simply the act of cheating scrambled the entire field, it immediately cascaded into every other participant and thus had an impact on them and the outcome. No ifs ends or buts. It’s as if Jamaica not only cheated by taking PEDs but also pushed some runners tripped others while the race was taking place. You cannot argue any other fair outcome for 2008 Singapore Grand Prix except complete exclusion of entire event from tally OR declaration of event as finished on lap 12 pre deliberate crash and SC and according to rules awarding 1/2 points. Those are the only fair options that scrub this black mark from the books fully and completely without any residue remaining as far as Formula 1 is concerned. There is no other fair option. The option they have taken here is one that honestly takes away incredible amout of integrity from the sport, ruling body, Championship, etc. Renault by cheating as they did marked one of the darkest days in F1, and FIA did nothing to really fix it. They yielded to the fix to keep Renault in F1 probably. The price of that yield was Formula 1’s integrity, in my view all that was left of it.


I can argue it, and will continue to, because the entire body of sporting law jurisprudence is with me and my solution, and not you and yours. I have shown you incidents where an outside force has disrupted a race for a leader and no others, and there was no recourse.

It is UP TO YOU to actually show that any sport, anywhere on this planet, has ever done anything comparable to what you suggest for the 2008 Singapore GP. You have yet to do this … I’m not sure if you just have never really tried, or if you have, have found that there’s nothing, yet then have stubbornly resolved to plow on instead of admitting defeat. Either way it’s pretty poor form from yourself.

Why do you watch a sporting series that you believe to have zero integrity? Strange. I don’t watch cycling because rightly or wrongly I don’t know if anyone is riding fair. I can’t be sure that the winners today will be the winners 10 years from now, when drug testing methods have advanced. So I don’t bother.


You know what KRB? I need to quite F1 and this comment forum. I see it how I see it. It’s hopeless and pointless and I’m wasting precious time.


Funny that you don’t watch cycling because of PED concern, but you watch F1 where MONEY = PED.

Funnier still, you cheer for one of the biggest spenders, if not THE biggest. And recently Luca stated on record that Lauda confessed to him that Mercedes were working on the new PU as of 2007 and steered the rules toward, as we know insisting they will leave otherwise, until they got the rules and the PU Formula onto the grid 7 years later. Now, that’s one heck of a head start. Sporting? Clever? Fair? Or a PED? Certainly we can exclude fair and sporting from those choices.


I would believe Niki Lauda about as far as I could throw him. 2007?!? Simply a ridiculous assertion for him to make.

Either way, your post is just more skating around the issue from you.


OK KRB, what skating are you talking about? My posts addresses your point clearly and fully.
MONEY in F1 is PED. You claim to hold some high ground about cycling due to PEDs when F1 is built and designed around unfair PED like advantage for some or for one who wishes to outspend them all.

You picked one heck of a bad sport if you want to compare purity of competition in F1 vs. Cycling. At least in cycling we see what human body is capable of, even if it is red lined. In F1, where 90% of the package is car, team and budget that is set up to favor some and not be equal for all, you want to tell us it is fair? Yeah, about as fair as select few riders having HGH and best steroids and others getting aspirin.

You don’t believe Lauda, but what he admitted to fits the time line of events perfectly. We should believe you over Lauda?


We’re not children KRB, we know all sport is all about business. Big business. Money is the priority. If it means $750 per ticket to see a race, or $200 for a golf shirt, or $20 a month to watch the sport on TV, money is the driver. Don’t think it is only in F1 that I see the ugliness. 2007 basketball referee was surely a lone wolf and there is no other corruption around here, look away everyone. Right? Politics in sport? Everywhere. US calling to ban Russia from Olympics as if US athletes are clean, not assisted by some of the smartest minds in medicine on how to get an advantage?

You keep looking at precedent, and I told you already this 2008 Singapore GP is a unique event and a chance to set precedent. For you to sit here and declare that the only solution is to look back in history and other sports at how such cases were handled, when this case is unique onto itself, is silly. It requires a fresh look and a fresh solution.

There is absolutely no doubt that the actions perpetrated by Renault that Sunday of 2008 Singapore Grand Prix were fraud, cheating, endangering human lives. This is fact. There is also no doubt that those events disadvantaged an entire field, and had an immediate impact on every single competitor in that event. F1 is not a clean competition like 4×100 relay where each team has their own lane they have to stay within. F1 is a competition of many individuals where any one driver can have an impact on every other competitor. It’s a straight line from fraud in that 2008 GP to impact on every competitor who took part in it KRB. Fraud was perpetrated that impacted every competitor taking part in what is supposed to be free from such intentional acts. The question that follows is simple, now what? There is absolutely no other way to restore integrity to a fraudulent sequence of events in this F1 case, because a fair solution is supposed to provide a complete UNDO mechanism. And there are only two ways to completely UNDO what was done to each and every competitor that day. Hence we either scrap the result entirely from the tally, or we go to the point in the event before UNDO was necessary. It’s simple logic really.

As for your point in cycling…
Funny, I have watched cycling for quite some time, and that Lance, Ulrich, Basso, Pantani, Vino and Levi era were amazing to watch. It ws appointment television I bet you without any hesitation that it was peak cycling, just as V10 era was peak F1. And what now? What since? Wiggins with his medical exemptions? You think cycling is clean now? Here is what I like about cycling to be perfectly honest. I know these guys all cheat. You can’t be at the top of this crazy event unless you have some built in genetic advantage or more likely medicinal help. When I watch it I’m under no illusion of what I’m watching. I want them to blast past the other guy like they are super human. I want them to look back at the guy they just dropped and be like….”you coming? Oh…you can’t. Exactly!” And how do you think that happens?

The thing about F1, as with other sports is that it pretends like there is this integrity in competition. When really it’s all a giant dog and pony show. Teams spend their way to success unfairly. Akin to a 110lb fighter stepping into the right with a 210lb fighter. Biggest wallet wins. And when the biggest fraud ever is perpetrated on an F1 Grand Prix, nothing – absolutely not a thing is done about the result. Why? Why is nothing done? Simple really. To not banish Renault and to keep them and their money in it. A mission that’s been achieved with their recent commitment till 2025. And also to not tarnish a character (Alonso), which they have built up for the good of the sport. Pathetic, and when you think about it, it completely devalues the whole thing.

Just going back to the time when it all happened – McLaren slapped with 100M fine! Individuals, including Alonso, acted deplorably and even thought it was individuals, the entire TEAM was punished. Renault? Oh no, we’re going to treat individuals as individuals here, not as a TEAM. Why do I mention this? Because these two incidents show you how little regard FIA and Formula 1 itself has for precedent that you so seek as the holy grail.

Everything, everything that you’ve just read above is the reason why right now, at this point I believe WWF (or WWE for you newbies) is the purest, cleanest, fairest sport on the planet. It doesn’t pretend to be something it is now. It doesn’t lie to you about having integrity. It doesn’t put on some dog and pony show about a ruling body. It is the truest and purest professional sport. Doesn’t that say something.


More skating … a LOT more skating around from you. New precedents are possible. It’s extremely rare that any new precedent reverses an entire litany of previous precedents, which your bizarre solution would. Please try starting a crowd-funded legal challenge to that result. Surely there are enough people out there who would kick in $1-5 to see it happen. I am sure there are lawyers out there that would take the money to “have a go”. I’m also sure that it stands zero chance of succeeding.


Throwing out the result retroactively due to irrefutable evidence of fraud or adjusting the result to remove the impact of the fraud as it pertains to a “sport” like F1 is hardly some illogical mind boggling new precedent. It is simply a refinement of past precedents at best. The fact that countless results have already been changed retroactively means were 95% there with your current precious precedents.


Yeah, precedent, in F1. You make me laugh KRB.

McLaren is first, has a few individuals found guilty of cheating, is punished as a TEAM and fined 100M. Points stripped. Precedent set.

Renault is found guilty of worse cheating ever including endangering lives. Individuals are isolated from TEAM and punished as indoviduals, not team, even though team gets to keep points gained via fraud. Team does get a 100M fine, which is suspended magically – so no real punishment except for the double secret probation for 2 years, which I think they escape by selling team, right? So much for precedent.


Skating? I out some effort into that and I didn’t skate at all. I believe I explained the UNDO logic quite well. Fact is fact. Fraud was committed in 2008, result was allowed to stand, and this means in 2008 wrong champion was declared. I’m out.

You continue not watching cycling because it’s filthy and watch F1 because ot is PED free.


Yes, skating. The effort you put out was in just writing out your same spiel in different words and paragraphs. Nothing in the way of new arguments, or compelling new supporting evidence.

If Singapore was ever changed, the only change would be to DSQ Alonso, meaning Hamilton would gain 2 more points, and then it wouldn’t be the joint second closest championship in history. At least we still got the last corner of the last lap of the last race craziness that was Interlagos 2008. “I-I-IS THAT GLOCK?!?!!” A supreme F1 moment.

You’d rather have Massa as champion, which would be a clear case of the car delivering a championship to a lesser driver? I thought you were anti-PED? In 2008 we had the better driver in a very good car beating the lesser driver in the best car. For F1 that’s its ‘man bites dog’ story, and we got it in 2008.

You’re out … hmm, so see ya in a couple days max?? 😉


What’s up KRB? You’ve gone quiet. You forgot the fact that we know 100% fraud was committed, but same can’t be said for Alonso knowing or not knowing. A little loophole they found. So excluding him could be argued to not be fair. But rolling back to lap 12, pre crash , pre fraud and giving 1/2 points really takes care of not only the fraud fully, impact of fraud on all participants but also Alonso. Doesn’t it. So clean. So fair.


Gone quiet? There’s been nothing to respond to. You persist with the same level of thinking. You’re not a logic person, are you? You don’t draft laws just on feelings.

In your relay example, there are important differences. Every competitor is directly and explicitly interfered with, and I’m assuming that none finish the race. Of course in such an instance I’m sure they would re-run the race, minus the penalized team. The infraction was clear, the damage was clear, and the hurdles to staging another race are minimal.

Even in an athletics race, the sport must adhere to its rules at all times. It can’t make up new rules or regulations on the fly:


For that race, there was a race referee, and a starter. The starter had command of the race for the first 200 metres. A big crash happened on the first lap at the 195m mark, and as the starter did not signal then for a restart, it was a fair race. The race referee ordered a race re-run, which they had no authority to do. The CAS overturned the race referee’s decision, and the Canadian kept the gold. So your lap 12 race suspension CAN NEVER HAPPEN, as there was and is no mechanism for it to happen in the rules and regulations of F1. L-O-G-I-C.

In the Crashgate case, with it only being known almost a year later, there was no way to re-run the race. It’s doubtful that an F1 race would ever be re-run, given the logistics of it all. There’s also no way that they would exclude the result, as it was not the last race in the championship, and because excluding it would affect the final championship standings at the top. Seeing as there were three races after Singapore, and the various actors would’ve approached them differently had the Singapore race been excluded before then, there’s no way that the Singapore GP would be excluded. None, zero, nada.

This was a race where there was 15 classified finishers, out of 20 total racers (including Piquet Jr). The incident was designed to help the Renault team only, and specifically their lead driver. It was not aimed against any other specific team. The incident (a crash provoking a SC) on its face was not a scenario totally foreign to the race teams. It had happened many times before. If Piquet was on track and was deliberately running into a bunch of cars on purpose, that would’ve been an extraordinary scenario unseen and unheard of to that point.

The case of Massa/Ferrari and the pit light & gas hose was TOTALLY INDEPENDENT of Piquet Jr’s crash. One did not cause the other. It was simply the vagaries of grand prix racing.

As a deterrent, the only thing that would happen would be for Alonso and Renault to be excluded from the final results. Actual prison time for Briatore and/or Symonds would be a great deterrent, but that would involve national courts instead of the CAS.

Ball’s in your court … new evidence or any new arguments, or just the 436th iteration of your stock spiel?


Nice twist – and its very true as you say Sebee! ;o)

Maclaren makes some really high quality baby strollers, light-weight, though strong and rigid. Had a couple for my kids growing up, though no fingers cut despite the intricate folding apparatus. ;o)

Always thought that the McLaren in that period could have learned a thing or two from Maclaren. 2008 appear so many years ago by now…

Both McLaren and Renault are probably the two teams on the grid where we expect most progress from for 2017 vs previous year. But both teams have been over-promising and under-delivering for a long time by now, so don’t really believe them much anymore.


I’ll agree McLaren has over promised, but Renault really only over promised in 2015. Last year, their engine was much more on par, albeit still off the pace. As far as the factory team goes, they didn’t promise much for last year, admitting that the car was effectively Lotus’s 2015 car, slightly modified and fitted for a Renault engine. I think Renault has been a lot more cautious. They even stated that RBR shouldn’t expect to challenge for the title this year because the engine wasn’t going to be a match for Mercedes until 2018.


Alonso tossed his toys out of his Mclaren pram around this time too!

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