Turning the Tide?
Marina Bay 2017
Singapore Grand Prix
Horner: This was Max’s equivalent of Senna’s ’84 Monaco and Schumacher’s ’96 Spain
Red Bull Racing
Max Verstappen
Posted By: James Allen  |  13 Nov 2016   |  10:05 pm GMT  |  465 comments

Max Verstappen’s drive to third place has drawn praise from all corners of the F1 paddock, but Christian Horner summed it up by comparing the drive to the legendary performances of Ayrton Senna at Monaco in 1984 and Michael Schumacher at Barcelona in 1996.

Both were wet weather drives of great confidence and bravura, featuring instinctive overtakes. Senna finished second to Alain Prost in Monaco, while Schumacher won in Spain.

Verstappen held second place until Red Bull pitted him for Intermediates, a very optimistic move which caused him to have to make up 13 places to regain the podium. So it was a different kind of drive.

Time will tell whether Verstappen will go on to achieve a fraction of what those two great drivers managed, but there is no question this was the breakthrough drive of his fledgling career. He has been a controversial figure at times this season with his defensive moves, but this was a drive of pure attack.

Max Verstappen

Responding to a question on comparisons with the legendary wet weather drives from this website, Horner said,

“I think it’s right up there; you have to compare it to those great moments. You don’t often witness a motor race like that, What we witnessed today was something very special.

“They don’t get much better than that. It was a difficult race for everyone, the conditions wet tricky all afternoon. He quickly moved past Kimi with a decisive move and from that point on you could see he meant business. The audacious move on Nico round the outside Turn 3 was the start of things to come.”

Later in the paddock Damon Hill, who was in the 1996 Spain race with Schumacher, also agreed that Verstappen’s drive deserved to be compared with the very best wet weather performances in the sport.

What struck Hill was the quality of the overtaking; the moves on Raikkonen and Rosberg were on similar tyre conditions whereas later his tyres were 20 laps fresher than many of the cars he was racing against, but Hill argues that this doesn’t matter; he highlighted the fact that the speed of instinct in the moves is what showed genius, not to mention complete self belief.

But he also pointed to the presence of mind to back out of some situations, knowing that he would go off track if he tried to insist. In contrast Sebastian Vettel and even Fernando Alonso found themselves off track in close combat.

Max Verstappen

Red Bull took a strategy gamble to try to win the race with Verstappen, pitting him when he was ahead of Rosberg in second place. It didn’t pay off because the rain intensified and Verstappen decided that the Intermediate tyres were not going to work and they went back to the wet tyres. This put him down in 16th place and he managed to fight back to finish third.

“All of his moves were great, losing very little time with the moves he made, said Horner. “He raced hard with Sebastian, with Kimi into Turn 1, I think he found grip and his confidence was extremely high.

“It demonstrates what a phenomenal talent he is.”

For all his bravado, this was a poor set of decisions by Red Bull on strategy, as we will analyse in the UBS Race Strategy Report here on Tuesday.


What did you think? Leave your comments in the section below

Featured News
MORE FROM Red Bull Racing
LATEST FROM THE RED BULL RACING COMMUNITY
Previous
Next
Share This:
Posted by:
Category:

Add comment

E-mail is already registered on the site. Please use the login form or enter another.

You entered an incorrect username or password

Sorry, you must be logged in to post a comment.

465 comments

by Oldest
by Best by Newest by Oldest
1

...and Lewis in Silverstone 2008!!

2

The pinnacle of rain racing is Clark, 1963, Spa.

3

hamilton spa 2008

4

Hamilton in Fuji 07

5

He slid off the track, got stuck, and a crane put him back on. Should have been disqualified.

6

No, that was at Nurburgring 2007, when the crane picked him up.

7

08
canada 07
indianapolis 07
spa 08
the list is a long one.

8

Indy '07 wasn't wet.

9

How about Senna in Donington 1993?
In inferior car lapped everyone bar Hill.

10

But those cars had all kinds of electronic gizmos available to the driver. Traction control, anti-lock brakes, active suspension, spin control, and what else? Even Senna said his '95 Portugal win was much better because he didn't have all those driver aids available that he had at Donington...

11

You mean Williams had them (at least I know they were the only one who had the active suspension), while Senna didn't?
As for the other gizmos, probably everyone had them, that fact alone doesn't tarnish the superior drive Senna performed.

12

Unbelievable how people forget about Donington 93, when Senna passed Schumacher, Wendlinger, Hill and Prost on the first lap. Schumacher was passed out of Redgate, the first corner. Wendlinger was passed in the Craner Curves, on the outside line during the downhill run!!! Hill up into McLean's, and Prost into the second last hairpin. Never been seen before, never will be seen again. Greatest wet weather drive ever; then the rest that's been talked about here . . .

13

Senna passed Schumacher, Hill and Prost on the first lap....not the last laps....Max did very well, but i agree with you....Max's drive is nowhere the same as Senna or even Portugal 1985

14

inferior to whose?

15

To Williams.

16

only inferior to one car?

17

Inferior by a one and a half second a lap.
It is a light year in F1 terms.
To put you this in a perspective, Hamilton's in Interlagos (pretty much the same distance and time per lap) last Sunday was that much quicker than Alonso's McLaren, and bit less than both Force India cars. Even Hass of Grosjean was "only" 1,2 sec slower.
I don't think you wouldn't be surprised if any of them won by a margin where they would almost lap Hamilton (in his mighty Merc), and lap Rosberg and everyone else fort that matter, would you?
Yet Senna did it.
He had beaten both of Williams drivers (including lapping one of them), while none of them had any issues with a car.
Don't forget those William's were driven by multiple World Champion and future World Champion.
That's is a great drive in my book.

18

GREAT comment, Krako. Illuminating, and spot on!

19

Thanks Egmont, just trying to point (probably to youngster) what was probably the greatest drive ever, performed by arguably the greatest driver ever.
I'm sure before my time there were many great drives as well, but I'm following F1 only since '77, and this one pops up right away when someone mentions wet weather racing (along with famous Monaco race, again performed by Senna).

20

He also had McLaren's that were the best on the grid in wet conditions in '07 & '08. Not denying Lewis is a very good wet weather driver, as is Max clearly, but I'm not sure their performances can be up there with Schumi's & Senna's as their wet weather masterclasses were done in cars that didn't have the most downforce (Schumi's '96 Ferrari was a dog).

21

Schumacher was the only driver on full wet settings, that day. Everybody else believed it would dry up during the coarse of the race.

22

I Think we all should just enjoy what was a good race with some great overtaking. The likes of which we have not seen for a while. Time and history will judge where it stands in the realms of classics. There were 2 outstanding drives in there different ways. Let's just hope for the sake of F1, that we get more of this next year.

23

Exactly my thoughts!!! Very well said. Though one has to commend Max's performance, it's hardly worthy of comparison to Shumi's '96 Spainsh GP drive.

24

masterclass...

25

rosberg was schumachers teammate at mercedes for 3 seasons..we saw how good he was then..

26

It;s a shame you don't have the insight and understanding to acknowledge Mk.1 Schumacher was very different.

27

Yes. Very different indeed, as Schumacher Mk. 1 clearly enjoyed a massive advantage over team mates in terms of team orders and traction control (remember 1994 Benetton?), whereas Schumacher Mk. 2 didn't enjoy those same advantages. Sure, he was bit older and performed well for his age, but add the 0.3 of a second he lost because of this, and Rosberg was still his equal, or just about.

28

Yes we saw a 43 year old get pole at Monaco.

29

and won 7 championships with 91 race victories driving against less able drivers..
did he park his car that time?

30

And a hierarchy of authority to help him do it. Remember how Bridgestone took Ferrari's choice of tyre to Monza 2000, and left McLaren in the lurch after Mika's stunning victory at Spa (passing Zonta on the inside at the top of Kemmel straight, going into Les Combes, when Schumacher went outside)? Or how Michelin had been forced to change tyre design late into the 2003 season, when Montoya was marching to the title? Or how Alonso was penalised after 2006 quali at Monza for "impeding" Massa? Or how Renault's mass dampers were outlawed late in the season, to stop Alonso from clinching another title? Or how Barrichello was robbed in Austria? Or Barrichello having to give up his car at Imola when he was equal on pace with Schumacher during FP? Or all the drivers having been driven off the track by Schumacher, without ensuing penalties (like Alonso on Silverstone's Hangar straight)? Etcetera, etcetera., etcetera. All with one single aim in mind: to help Schumacher win the world title. Worked a couple of times. Didn't work in 2006.

31

oh yeah egmont, i remember them alright..

32

Sorry but that is a rather stupid comparison. Do you really believe that Rosberg is better than Schumi?[Mod] if you do. 7 WDCs, 91 wins, 68 poles. Yah! Schumi really sucked. Marc

33

nothing to do with my believes and you can call me stupid if you wish but we all saw how rosberg beat schumacher at will for 3 seasons in the same car. schumacher may have won other races against other teammates who weren't allowed to challenge him by contract but at mercedes, rosberg had him cover for all those 36 months...

34

If you think that Rosberg would have had any chance against Schumacher first time round you really should [Mod].

35

too young he was..

36

Schumacher was old and had been retired 2 years. Massive difference. Verstappen won't be as good or take risks when he's 40 either. Schumi will always be the greatest.

37

Mate, U can't deny that Shumi was a fantastic driver, but Senna is and always will be the greatest driver that the world of racing has ever seen.

38

Amen to that!

39

every f1 driver is old. what are you talking about? verstappen is 19 years old and hamilton is 31 years old.
rosberg beat schumacher at will for 3 seasons and we all know how much better hamilton is than rosberg.
you need to remove all that prejudice out of your head and look at the bare evidence..

40

If Schumacher and Brawn didnt do all the hard groundwork at Merc Red Bull would still be cleaning up. If you like bare facts you must agree that Schumachers stats make him best of all time.

41

Those Merc's understeered, Lewis wouldn't have liked them either. Lewis should thank Schumacher for his development work in advising the engineers how to build the car.

42

John Barnard was very explicit in stating that "technically, Schumacher is nothing special". But John Barnard is clearly before your time, clever boy! John Barnard? John Barnard who? Brother of Christiaan Barnard??

43

Your logic is flawed .. beating number 1 by number 2 who beated number 3 before is no proof that number 2 is better or worse than number 3.
Schumi in his come back was no success. He improved the MERC and that s the reason HAM can win races now.

44

there wasn't a number driving that car, it was schumacher and rosberg. if schumacher was that great at developing that mercedes car why was he replaced with hamilton like kvyat was replaced with verstappen?
hamilton developed that mercedes into a championship winning car. it wasn't a championship winning car in 2013 yet hamilton took it places unheard of..

46

Schumi lacked pace and his development skills are very well known to every follower of F1.
Ham was thee young blood. Necessary for the future. Schumi ended his own carreer btw.
Your blind adoration off HAM is nice to see, but a bit boring 😉

47

not to mention soaking a test track with water for schumacher to learn how to drive in on a wet track on..
if he was that good there would've been no need for any of that.

48

are you scared of being specific, like ferrari tested 24hrs aday on two separate tracks?
why would they need to do that if schumacher was so good at developing cars?

49

Haha, you really are funny.

50

Schumacher made it a very fast car in 2013 and the rock hard Pirelli tyres for 2014 took care of the problems.

I suppose you're going to argue Hamilton was key in designing the all conquering Merc engine as well.

Don't be bitter just because Schumacher has over double the championships.

51

Nobody in this establishment will agree with that statement. No matter how true it is.

52

I think it was an impressive drive,but not comparable to that monaco senna drive. You almost get the feeling of a driver prepared for even death,from the body language of the car,and the mindset required for senna to wring the neck of his car as he did. I think it was in the movie
( senna ) that prost said ' Ayrton thinks he can't die doing the things he do '. Vastappen displayed talent and some bravery, but not the danger,frenzy and madness of senna's Monaco drive.Any driver will be really flirting with death if they drove in that way ;it was visibly manic. Lewis's drive at Silverstone 2008 was a thing of art. It was fast and elegant. It proved we don't necessarily need too many overtakes in F1.If the regulation will allow, there is something impressive and captivating about watching the cars being driven to the limit, with little tyre constraints.Hopefully we get that next season.

53

The main point against what you just said is that Vestappen would literally be denied any oppurtunity to win. to race and make moves against other racers that could be dangerous would see Max disqualified from the race. Thats what sucks about modern F1 racing, there isnt any sense of danger anymore mainly because if there ever was any chance that someone could lose a life would be acted upon by the FIA, and new rules would be put in place to disable it from ever happening

54

prost said "he thinks he can't kill himself because he believes in god" and ayrton said that's not true.
it was a superb drive but your 'prepared for death' and 'frenzy madness' is very over dramatic

55

I've NEVER seen Lewis drive like that, max is in a league if his own.

56

Well if Max's superiority was as you say, then how come he didn't overtake Lewis? How come he was losing ground to him?

57

Lewis was the only driver who didn't have water spray in his face, easy. Max was 16th, Lewis never pitted at the wrong time.

58

Hè was quicker than Lewis, hè wil have catched him If they diddnt pit him

59

Well Max drove the fastest lap in lap 67 and Max have already shown that he could drive Hamilton to the max in Malaysia.... but I think the near crash cost him a lot of seconds..... Max is still learning the car, also with the wet tires..... very promising for next year!

60

That was due to Team work from Red Bull

61

you will never see hamilton drive like that..

62

Go watch silverstone 08 then.

63

hamilton drove much better, dominating the entire field.

64

spa 2008 fuji 2007

65

you dream of water.. but i tell you a secret. You need rain 😉

66

Been there and watched it, still say Hamilton has never driven like max yesterday

67

i knew from the get go that this was all about antihamilton sentiments.

68

Getting the 2nd best car to 3rd? Hamilton’s won plenty of races he shouldn't have.

69

Silverstone 08 was equally good, if not better (imo).

70

No wayyyyy ... Max drove way better!! Not to compare at al

71

Horner is risking "Senna like" copyrights infringements which belongs to number 44 two British fan clubs and their followers, BBC F1 and British SKY F1.

72

Don't be daft, you can't own an opinion, 'senna like' doesn't belong to anyone, it is particularly noticeable that Hamilton has only one his championships, when there's been no effective opposition. He has a long way to good me before he's a 'great'

73

Well lets not forget that the Brazilians fans and newspapers compares Max with their own God Senna, that should say something and also a lot of other formula 1 experts are saying this.... and off course Max is Max it really doesn't matter, it is just an opinion... why should you argue with that, I agree with you SBowen....

74

now i understand you..
genetics..

75

Oh dear, I'm sensing a theme here, Lets take it a stage further shall we.....no driver has ever won the championship with effective opposition, just like an effective strategy it would be effective if it succeeds so effective opposition is measured by the same yardstick and cannot be considered effective unless they succeed,what we must take from this is they are all useless and win only as a result of everyone else being even more useless. Hamilton is clearly the most useless of them all. P.s "Particularly noticeable" to whom?

76

no need..

77

To form an effective opposition doesn't necessarily mean to beat them, it can be effective if it serves it's purpose for the team in question, I don't think there's been so many, certainly consecutive seasons, where a very slight realignment of positions wouldn't have effected the overall outcomes drastically, Alonso and vettel and Schumacher have had to fight for at least one of their championships, Hamilton has been fortunate enough to have n outstanding car that noone else can really match, certainly not over a sustained period. Hamilton hasn't proved to me that he can race an inferior car to a win yet,

78

Yet Hamilton is the last driver to win the WDC in a car which did not win the WCC.

79

There's always a few that will have opinions like yours. Mainstream opinion will just relentlessly march on.

80

Did Hamilton not have to fight to win the title in 2008?
Did Schumacher Vettel or Alonso win a title in an inferior car, I think not, Hamilton Vettel Alonso and Schumacher have all won races in cars which were clearly not the best on the grid at a particular moment or inferior as you call them,but surely it would be disingenuous to suggest that Hamilton has only ever won races in the best car, clearly his McLaren had poor periods/seasons and so did the Mercedes when he first arrived but he still won races, his 2008 title winning car was not the constructor title winner but was obviously a good car nonetheless,in 2012 Button was nowhere in the McLaren and he is a highly rated ex world champion, at the same time Hamilton was battling for the title that many say he may have won if not for the many pit errors and mechanical failures that cost him so many points, so how do we judge that McLaren? was it a great car because Ham was working miracles with it or a terrible car because Jenson was nowhere in it? If my memory serves me correctly by the end of the 2016 season Ham will have spent 3 seasons in a constructors title winning car, out of 10 seasons in the sport, Vettel has had 4 so far, Schumacher more than both, but maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

81

that great schumacher was rosberg teammate at mercedes for 3 seasons and we saw how good he was..

82

Your logic is totally flawed. Nonsensical

83

Hamilton was with Button for 3 seasons and we saw what happened there.

84

NickH, yes we did. Lewis went up against his world champion team mate and beat him 2,1. Michael went up against Rosberg and lost 3,0.

85

Nonsense. Hamilton had to fend off both Raikkonen and Massa in a far less dominant car in 2008. And let's not forget he humbled Alonso in 2007 in the same car.

86

Although I rate Hamilton greatly, I have to say that in 2012 he had arguably the fastest car, or at least equal match to Red Bull and definitely better car than Ferrari. Yet he finished fourth behind "Leave me alone, I know what I'm doing" Kimi, Alonso and Vettel respectively, and barely 2 points ahead of Button, who in opinion of many is inferior driver to Hamilton.
To get to the "greatest ever" position, one has to show more that beat his less than great teammate (Rosberg).

87

"To get to the "greatest ever" position, one has to show more that beat his less than great teammate (Rosberg)."

Alonso would be an epic fail then--being beaten by Marques, Trulli, Hamilton & Button! And Hamilton has beaten Rosberg for the past 3 years--he may not do it this year but that's mainly down to reliability issues. Schumacher got a spanking from Rosberg---so i suppose by your reckoning, Schumacher isn't great either....Jeeze, some F1 fans really lack the knowledge to discern.

88

Umm, maybe because he had 6 non-finishes because of horrible reliability. No other driver is held to as high a standard than Hamilton ("Look! He can't even score when his car doesn’t finish!! If he'd be more consistent in finishing he'd be further ahead!") *shakes head*

89

KRB, you are forgetting that when Lewis' car breaks down, it is his fault! He probably buzzed the DFV, or missed a shift on the Hewland....

90

If we had to judge the 2012 McLaren with Hamilton out of the equation then how would it rate if you could only use Jenson to decide,I'm not so sure you would be claiming it was arguably the fastest car or even a good car, in fact most would have said it was a dog if only judged on Jenson's performances,we all watched the season and know why he finished a few points behind Hamilton but the performances in the car were chalk and cheese, Button is a great driver and worthy champion but could not extract the performance from that years car but Hamilton is given no credit by some for what he was able to achieve in it, indeed many agree the car failures combined with the pit errors and strategy blunders probably or at least potentially cost him the title that year.
P.s Like many on here you seem to underestimate Rosberg, I think he deserves far more credit than he gets and I don't buy into the line that he has upped his game this year, his game has been up there all along, just look how relentless he has been despite being defeated for 3 years by Hamilton but has never given up, and who did he have as his previous teammate? Yes it was only Schumacher who he came out ahead of each year,Nico is a very strong competitor and hasn't run from the challenge and scurried of to another team like many others might have done and I admire him for that, he is faster than most on the grid I reckon and while not quite as good as Hamilton he's no also ran that's for sure.

91

Hamilton's drive in Japan 2007 in a near monsoon at Fuji Speedway was pretty phenomenal too.

92

Surely, Hamilton's drive behind the Safety Car in Japan'07 was a true master class on what *NOT* to do...

93

As was Verstappens spin yesterday.... But it doesnt take away from his drive so why would it Lewis'@ fuji. VES produced a great drive yesterday DESPITE almost stacking it in the wall... HAM produced a great drive at FUJI DESPITE the incident behind the safety car. Lets not forget Silverstone 08 of course. Button Canada 2011. ALL fantastic wet weather drives of the last 10 years.

94

Hmm, he won after multiple SC's in torrential conditions. I know what incident you're talking about, but that just resulted in a new rule. He still won in dominant fashion that day.

Dominant drives, and being the impetus behind rule changes are perhaps the hallmarks of great drivers? Didn't they call it the Hamilton Rule at the time? And now there's the Verstappen Rule.

95

It was a great drive, as good as any I have seen from Ayrton, Michael or Lewis. Huge confidence, and brilliant feel for the conditions brought a podium that his pitwall seemed intent on depriving him of!

96

I'm fascinated to know which level of the podium was possible.

Come on James when is the analysis report due, (hoping its tomorrow) ?

97

Tuesday, yes. Its'a humdinger this one!!

Great inputs from a number of team strategists, all off the record, as usual

98

I do hope the newer tires Max had are considered in the analysis.

99

Of course but he was on the same tyres as Raikkonen and Rosberg...

And similar age tyres as Ricciardo in the closing stages.

100

James

Is it not possible that Red Bull and Max gambled on Saturday and went for a wet setup?

101

yes and even Pirelli said it was not a great advantage to the older tires, because they can least two races.... also I heard that Max didn't even have new tires at the last stint...

102

Unfortunately Vettel also came from 15th to 5th. Put Max's 16th to 2nd in a little more context. Great drive, but not one that outclassed the entire field. Lewis was after all romping away with it at the front.

103

O come on, it took Vettel the whole race to climb from 15 to 5 (which is pretty good)! Max climbed from 16 to 3 in just 13 rondes (which is astonishing). Do you really compare those two performances? Lewis did a great job but driving in front all the time is easier then driving behind other cars (spray) and overtake them!
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page=chart&gp=975&graf=1

104

but it was exciting, because he also passed Kimi, Vettel and Perez .... I can't compare Vettels driving with Max.... Max who drove different lines... took over at so many different lines, clean take overs.... no I can't see the comparing...

105

That was in a different time frame.

106

It took Vettel most of the race to achieve that position. When Max rejoined in 16th position, Vettel was already on 6th? 7th?

It took Max only 16 laps to overtake 12 cars in front of him, including the man you says that put his effort in context.

Max was not in a league of his own but had only one companion in that league and that man's name was not Sebastian Vettel.

107

For those that don't realise, it is possible to acknowledge that both Max AND Lewis drove exceptionally, you don't just have to put your favourite above all others every time! 😉

Anyway, repeating what others have said, it's a shame RB messed with their strategy. I think if they'd stayed on full wets, not only could Max have been 2nd, but I think Ric would have put Nico under some pressure too...which could have given the 'dream' finish (in terms of the championship) of Lewis 1st and Nico 4th, so that the final race really went down to the wire.

With regards to all the red flag nonsense, the FIA really need to sort it out. Racing in the wet is clearly dangerous, but it's also when racing is generally the most exciting and intense - they need to find a way to keep them racing. The biggest issue seems to be aqua-planing, which is exasperated by how low the cars run - so could they not insist on a higher 'min height'? or perhaps allow teams to remove the barge board if it's deemed a 'full wet' race? or even just have better, bigger wet tyres with deeper tread and actually slightly 'bigger' than the normal tyres, to increase clearance?
Also, perhaps they could add better lighting on the rear of the cars for these kind of conditions to help people see... a strip of 'hazard' LEDs along the rear wing surely wouldn't add much weight? Perhaps even have them all around the edge of the car, so in a spin like Kimi the whole car could light up to help drivers following see something is crashing ahead?

108

Presumably aqua-planing will be less of a factor when next year they have "significantly more downforce" as Martin Brundle mentioned in the commentary. Not sure if bigger tyres help or hinder!
Magnificent from Max but not as on the edge as other drives mentioned.
As mentioned, it would've been awesome to have the RB's in P2 & 3 if they hadn't messed up the strategy - it would've made the final race winner takes all, which would've been a real spectacle!

109

Some argue the wider tread block will lead to more risk of aquaplaning

110

Surely the wet weather tyres will be less wide compared to the slicks? Normally (check rally cars on snow/ice) the less grip the less wide your tyres are.

111

Bruce. I think it's a shame that some people seem to have let their opinions on certain drivers, or F1 as a whole cloud their view of what was a very exciting race yesterday. It was a great drive from Max, no question about it, and I thoroughly enjoyed watching it.
Safety cars and red flags? A bit irritating at the time, and ultimately the conditiond were no worse when they finally let them go than they were when they red flagged it, but these decisions can't be easy to make, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to have to make them. With cars skating off, it has to be the right decision to halt proceedings in the hope that conditions improve, we all want to see the cars racing, but we don't want to see anyone end up in the hospital either.
I believe the full wets do raise the ride height of the cars, perhaps by not enough, but maybe the aero would be badly affected if they went any higher and it would make the problem worse? I feel the answer could lie in a more aggressive tread pattern on the full wet, a bit like the 'monsoon' tyres we used to have, requiring cars to fit these tyres at any point could prevent the nonsense we saw yesterday of cars aquaplaning off, repeated safety cars, and some teams fitting intermediates!

112

why can't we stick with the truth. even verstappen himself told the truth after the race. it was no way near as great as any of the historic races mentioned above.

113

@aveli, folks watching F1 over past years have had very few excitements and on track drama to cheer about. Not to mention the fact that most (and still rare) 'overtakings' have mainly been due to the artificial DRS gimmick or pit stop strategy. So no wonder we observe great cheer and excitement when we in one single race see as much drama, close racing and overtaking in one single race as we have seen over past 18 months combined. And all that down to one single driver called Max!

114

Cyber, that is certainly true. Despite the rain it would have been rather a dull race without Max.

115

Can you tell me where he said that? Because it's the first time I am hearing this. Also, if he would have agreed folks like you would probably call him arrogant anyway.

116

Aveli, the truth is that yesterday I watched a wet weather performance from Max, that was as good as any other I have seen in 30 plus years of F1 viewership. That's my view, and it is true.

117

that's certainly your view. he blitzed the field?

118

As much as your 'truth' is merely your view.

119

Aveli, Ayrton didn't win Monaco 84 remember. Max ran out of laps to do anything about the leaders, but he was running faster than them at the end. If Red Bull hadn't gambled on inters and stuck with the full wets throughout, then maybe Max could have challenged Lewis, he had already overtaken Nico when they were all on the same tyre, so no reason why he wouldn't be able to do it again on fresher rubber. I think Lewis had pace in hand, and Max wasn't catching Lewis at the start of the race when he got by Nico, but at the end with better tyres, he might have been able to get by, we will never know.

120

all who saw senna in monaco 84 believed he could've won the race because he was faster than the entire field. have another look at yesterday's race and have a better understanding of how far back verstappen fell while behind hamilton if a single lap....

121

Again, not true. Senna was not the fastest. Look at the figures there.
Lots of incomplete and strange story's you tell here.
The fastest Monaco 1984 driver was Stefan Bellof.

122

Your antiVEs attitude seems to cloude your judgement.

VES was behind HAM coming back from about 5 secinds to 1.7 seconds when he mad his heart stopping spin. He was reeling HAM in at that time. After that moment he fell back to about 8 seconds.
He had the fastest lap, lots of spray ( HAM drove on front, without any spray and cruised to the end while watching TV 😉

123

are you serious? have a look again with your eyes opened this time.

124

Indeed, I wonder if he actually watched the entire race.

126

Aveli, he wasn't faster than Bellof....

127

Almost noone, including professional F1 journalists remember that Bellof was running the only N/A car on the 84 monaco grid. That is a tremendous advantage in monsoon conditions.

128

Button ,Canada 2011. The current mclaren jet ski not helping two great wet weather drivers.

129

button took out his teammate back in canada 2011 and had the track to himself. he needs to put in a consistent level of wet weather performance to convince us that he is a wet weather specialist..

130

Button is one of the best in the wet, according to various metrics and statistics:

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/who-was-the-best-wet-weather-driver/

131

i forgot about that, yeah! now i remember. the one with the smooth driving style. so smooth jake humphry couldn't believe it after a few laps of silverstone as button's passenger. i wonder why that video was subsequently removed from youtube. ..
bemused humphrey compared hamilton to button....back in 2009.

132

Dirk, that was one of many great wet drives from Jenson, I remember Hockenheim in his first year as well. Worth remembering though that on that day in Canada, Lewis was catching JB at a great rate of knots before the collision.

133

That shows how classy he is! Everyone knows it was he does not have to say it

134

My sentiments exactly! But, you know we can't let the truth get in the way of a good story! 😂

135

Michael, perhaps you would like to share the "truth" with the group?

136

What are you talking about? Tell me exactly where Max said anything like that? But you'really definately right, this was surely better then than the races mentioned above! What grace, what absolute car-control and what excellent overtaking! RIC and VET were eaten alive as if they weren't on the same track!

137

have a look on the channel4 website for driver interviews..

138

Some really great overtakes there ... around Rosberg on the outside of turn 3, around the outside of Ricciardo, the switchback on Vettel, and then around the outside of Perez.

The Red Bull is a very good car in the wet ... a shame that they felt the need to "make things happen" with their strategy calls. This was a race where patience was a virtue.

139

To be fair, both Red Bull and Max have shown they're not here to finish second (although for the championship I hope they did!), and Hamilton had them covered if the race just trundled on. It didn't seem like a great gamble though, it shunted them back into traffic so Mercedes had plenty of time to react if the track conditions changed.

140

AndrewM, a fair point, Max wasn't catching Lewis at the start of the race when they were both on the full wet, so you can see why RB went for the inters.

141

RB were showboating. They had the 2nd fastest car in the race with plenty in hand, with new tyres to enable them to easily pass other cars running on old tyres. Their games enabled them to receive a vast amount of airtime, which is why they're in F1. Verstappen's race wasn't a patch on Hamilton who easily created a huge gap to the rest of the field after every restart. Just because he wasn't getting any TV attention, doesn't mean Hamilton wasn't racing.

142

¨showboating.¨ yep on inters it at least felt that way 😉
The fastest lap was for VES btw..

143

Are you saying they could've won this race?

144

No I'm not, Hamilton had enough in his pocket, but I think both Red Bull's could have had Rosberg in that race if they had stayed on wets throughout (changing in the red flag periods of course).

Hamilton lost 3.2s on the first SC, 18.3s from the Massa-induced SC, and he was 12.4s up on the final run to the flag before slowing right down before the finish line. That's 33.9s, on managed pace, from only 39 green flag laps out of 71.

145

Agreed. Hamilton was just sublime yesterday. I've never seen him more focussed, knowing that he can't afford a single slip up. Its perhaps telling that while people are (rightly) so impressed by Verstappen's drive, Hamilton's equally brilliant performance is somehow seem as par for the course.

146

I'd say that's poor maths and too empirical to add those times together. Others weren't on the same strategy as Lewis at each of those times so u can't just sum them up.

147

Not poor maths at all.

On the same strategy Lewis was faster than Max. Max spun trying to keep up.

The thing is, it's old hat from Lewis. We all expect him to be that good in the wet. Speaks volumes.

148

Rosberg was on the exact same strategy.

149

careful, next thing you know, someone will be saying toto phoned jos the boss to set this up.

150

Just phenomenal. Amazing how he explored the different lines. He wasted no time behind the safety car, braking and weaving and darting around. But it wasn't child's play at all. I was on the edge of my seat those last 15 laps.

151

verstappen said he couldn't see through the spray from the cars ahead so he moved out of the spray....
he wasn't exploring any lines. with all his downforce he spun behind hamilton. he also said he was sure he could've finished second if his team hadn't pitted him when he was asked if he could've won the race. he understood exactly how strong that winning car was in those conditions because he experienced driving behind it...he felt the force..
i must add that verstappen drove better than the field except the winning car. he also pulled some impressive moves on ricciardo rosberg vettel and perez some aided by his tyres...

152

well Aveli you are wrong with that statement, the new tires are not a great difference.... sorry it is in Dutch https://www.formule1.nl/nieuws/pirelli-nieuwe-banden-maakten-geen-verschil-voor-verstappen/

153

hi wendy, i saw verstappen speak those words...and believe him..

154

Well he said about the spray and yes he was already checking behind the safety car the track... He never said with the "new" tires he had a big advantage of the older worn tires. He only mentioned that he could have an accident with the intermediates...

155

If you actually pay attention you will notice Max quite regularly drives different lines on other tracks too, and in the dry too.

Why do people bring up the types? These are full wets which aren't nearly as prone to wear as slicks.

156

looks like you guys are morphing into a different species.
we can sniff you out nor matter what form you take.

157

keep on trying to play the fenomenal performance down 😉

158

am not playing down anything, just simply telling the truth.
do you honestly believe verstappen was faster than hamilton in that race?
if you answer no, then he didn't dominate the race as much as claimed..

159

Max drove the fastest lap...

160

that's true wendy, in his second f1 season at 19 years of age!

161

Means he was exploring lines, as he did.. just say your a Hamilton fan, and we would all understand..

162

i am a fan of both hamilton and verstappen...plus a few others..

163

Then explain to me what he was doing behind Raikonen first and then Rosberg during safety car periods? Accelerating, stepping on the brakes, going left and right. Weaving around.. Was that just to create visibility during the safety car periods? Of course not. He was probing for grip.
Yes, he mentioned visibility, but he also mentioned how he knew he had discovered a line in which he could overtake Raikonen, if Rai himself were to take the more conventional line, and how that worked out exactly as planned. You could also see how he gained knowledge of where the grip was before others, Like Ricciardo, were coached after Max was seen doing some of the stuff he did. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.. additional grip and increased visibility. His level of confidence in going where nobody else was going and at those levels of speed is quite something else.

164

warming his tyres and brakes in readiness for the race restart..

165

keep on dreaming. your the only one with the facts straight 😉

166

Yes he was very smart to look for grip and spots in the circuit... he drove karting like and it was superlative driving.
Having said that the RB car is glued to the asphalt (and TR) very very drivable easy stable under braking no under or over steering ... yes lost grip in a couple occasion but if you compare Ferrari they were always correcting something to keep it on track.

167

If so, how do you explain RIC??

168

Watching the 2 for some races. In my understanding VES and RIC get their best with very different setup. RIC usually prefers more corner speed (higher wing load) and a stiffer overall setup. He pays in the straights a little. VES likes to play a TR setup. Less wings load and a relatively softer setup up. That was very clear in Austin and Mexico. Now here in wet conditions both they increased the wing load but the rest of the setup was more favorable for rain to VES (which again he drove beautifully).

169

Don't go and bring logic and reasoning into this discussion now...

170

sheer brilliance.
the drive of a generation...

171

Why is everyone so surprised by young Max? I mean, this fresh faced clean shaven adolescent won his first grand prix despite intense pressure from seasoned veteran Kimi Raikkonen - in his first drive for Red Bull, have never driven the car or worked for the team before!! If that wasn't a clue to his ability, then what is????

I have to keep reminding myself that he is only 19. When I first attended my first GP at Silverstone many moons ago, the average age of a "yoof" driver was mid 20s. The likes of Senna and Schumi were still racing karts at the same age Max won his first grand prix - if that doesn't put things in perspective...........

Not since William of Orange invaded the UK has a Dutchman commanded such awe and respect!

172

William of Orange didn't invade the UK, he was invited to take the crown.
Other than that, have to agree, Max has so much ability and is great fun to watch.

174

I'm not a fan of Max. He comes across as arrogant and disrespectful, with none of the charisma of a young Schumacher or Hamilton.

HOWEVER, there can be no doubt about the kid's talent. Yesterday he was incisive and confident beyond his years, and if there were any doubts, he served notice that that he is the real deal. It will be exiting to watch how he develops, and even as a non-fan I think that he is the best thing that could have happened to F1 right now.

175

Schumacher charismatic? Schumacher not arrogant? Hamilton charismatic? Because of the runway action and bling? Wouldn't call young lewis very charismatic...

176

Arrogant?? Disrespectful?? What have you been looking at??

177

Excuse me? Charisma of young Schumacher? You must be talking about Ralph 😉
I don't remember the '93 / '94 Schumacher as particularly charismatic.

178

Maybe it was Flavio's considerable charisma reflecting on Schumi that gave me that impression 😉

179

he is certainly not arrogant or disrespectful in my eyes. he's simply enjoying his chosen career.
his best moves were on vettel and peres..

180

These things are subjective. I should have qualified my comment with an "in my opinion" he comes across as...

181

i know that was your opinion.

182

Why would comparing young drivers in that generation as in the mid twenties hold water? Back then F1 was different, money was different and drivers actually had to consider dying. I don't think it means Senna or Schumi could not have raced at 19.

The age thing is overrated. All that counts is good racing age. Every industry has younger people than ever accomplishing things, that just globalisation and the availability of modern information. Let's not gush more than the drains in Brazil guys.

Having said that I wouldnt mind a 19 year old taking over from Charlie Whiting immediately. Immediately. Right now.

183

Probably many 19 year old's around that could do a better job than Mr. Whiting!

184

very true..

185

its justification to those who believe him to be the best in the redbull stable, cause there have been people saying ricciardo is better without realising they are comparing a matured driver to one who is young enough to arguably still be learning his craft (he's a teenager lol)

after today's race i have no doubt in my mind that max is the best talent on the grid, huge fan of the boy already but aside from his win in Spain any nay sayers could argue that ric was still better, don't think that argument can hold any water after today

186

This drive of Max will hurt Ricciardo deep.

187

very interesting..

188

clean shaven?? He hasn't started shaving yet.

189

well... as a matter of fact he does!
"He shaves once a week", his father told me a couple of days ago.

190

The fastest way to exciting races is not wider tires, drs or other stupid engine/airodynamics [Mod]. It's much simpler. Install sprinklers on each track and make that race a wet race from a certain random moment. Very cheap solution. 'Max'imum fun. Get those tracks soaking wet already.

191

Hmmm think we were quite lucky not to see a bad accident, were they allowed to make car adjustments before the race ?

I really enjoyed max , he drives hard and fair with each driver , and treats them based on their driving. Lovely push on seb hehe.

192

Seb, the wining kid you mean??

193

all the incidents which could've happened happened! nothing else could've happened because they didn't.
the best 22 drivers in the world.

194

Best drivers, not sure about that, WRC guys are terrific, Kimi was nowhere competing in their championship.

Have not seen the race, just a few moments replay, but my conclusion is Max is fenomenal, Mad Max. Honest I am a bit concerned if his drive, this guy has a huge potential for everything, including a tragedy.

195

And where do you think the WRC guys would be in F1 cars? I imagine they'd all be Luca Badoer-esque.

196

i am sure f1 drivers are the best in the world. ask any driver where they aspired to drive and they will all tell you f1. the rest take part in other categories because they failed to make it into f1.

197

It was inevitable.
MV was just about the only driver exploring the track behind the (endless) safety car laps.
Put me in mind of the sort of thinking that made Schumacher great.

198

.......and watch endless hours of stationery cars in the pit lane or a slow procession of cars following the safety car.

199

Bernard? Is this you?

200

Nico Rosberg would be out of a job.

201

Are you Bernie in disguise?

202

Extraordinary performance by Max in the rain today, and would be placed as one of the best that I had ever seen, even though he didn't win the race. Hamilton's race at Silverstone in 2008, when he finished 67 seconds ahead of the second place driver in that deluge, and was shattering performance on his part. Max's performance today had an answer for all of those, who think that F1 is boring. Verstappen really put on one hell of a show today!

203

Rain. Not only the big equalizer in racing. Also the element that will set apart the greatest from the average talented. Because you need that carfeeling, that feeling for searching maximum grip, that lack of fear. Hamilton has it. Rosberg doesn't. Sainz has it. Kviyat doesn't. Ocon has it. Wehrlein doesn't. Would't say Riciardo is averagely talented though. Max is just in another league. In equal cars, he would kill Lewis. Not by far, but he would.

204

please mercedes, sign verstappen to drive alongside hamilton...

205

max and lewis were equally as comfortable in the wet.
max's drive was more exciting to watch,but he never had the pace to beat lewis.

206

In no way Lewis would have done Max moves, Max is THE benchmark for everybody in F1.

208

disagree.lewis is just as good in the rain.max couldnt keep up with lewis after getting past nico.
also dont forget max was on fresh tyres,which meant he had alot more grip compared to others.

209

What I understood from a Pirelli statement is that Max didn't drive his amazing last stint on new tyres but on a set of used ones. They also claimed that the performance Max showed was all his and not due to the tyres as they hardly showed any degredation on any of the other cars.

210

and also Max drove the fastest lap in lap 67....

211

that's fantastic!

212

Full wets...full wets... you overestimate the impact of tyre freshness in the wet

213

Because he had a slide??

214

You could say that Max has the same wild and fearless style of old #34 Mr. Shwantz himself 😉

215

I look forward to seeing the trace in your strategy report James.

Max looked second best driver out their to Hamilton. First half of the race max out paced Rosberg and looked like Hamilton out paced both of them (when they were all on the same tyre.

No doubting his grip and feel for the track was excellent...but his times weren't much faster than Hamilton in the final stint on very fresh rubber.

This in no way compares to senna though. Redbull is best chassis on the grid...the to toleman senna was driving was the equivalent of the sauber.....very different. Also plenty of grass in Brazil if you make a mistake. Senna had no such safety net.

I'm not saying it wasn't a great drive...it was. But let's not get carried away.

216

perspective.

217

Thank you - excellent reply

218

Completely agree in regards the 1984 Toleman. Using a very primitive Hart turbo engine and navigating around a Monaco that doesn't exist anymore.

All barriers have been moved back to allow drivers the potential to make mistakes and get away with it.

And the entry to Rascasse being widened whereby there is no challenge.

The other thing to remember, Monaco was Senna's 5th ever Grand Prix.

Id like to know why has no one thought about Senna's first victory for comparison? His 16th race, pole position and lapped everybody up to second place.

Or is it simply that Max on barely worn heated rubber was never going to have a problem driving round the others on worn and no doubt cooled tyres...

Must add, the Ferrari that Schumi won the 96 Spanish GP was a pile of dung too.

Whilst his performance that day was sublime, he had been absolutely nowhere on pace in the wet Brazilian GP that year and most memorably he actually crashed out on the first lap the race before at a wet Monaco race. Ultimately won by Paris in a Ligier.

219

Spain 96 a dung? Your so blinkered man. You talk a great deal about senna in 84 at monaco but somehow fail to mention that bellof was even quicker then senna. And you should check spa 97 where schumacher was 10 seconds a lap quicker on the first laps then anybody else. Talk about great wet weather driving..

220

I'm guessing you're a fan of the young man...

Anyway, as jj_0 pointed out, i was referring to the 1996 Ferrari as a piece of rubbish. What Schumacher accomplished with it was staggering.

I remember Spa 97. But why no mention of Spa 95, Monaco97 or any other wet race he dominated. I digress.

There's a simple reason I mentioned Senna at Monaco and Schumi in Spain and that's because Christian Horner mentioned both races and the piece was written by the author using those examples.

I have stated my belief that Estoril 85 was a greater drive, but let's return to the 84 race.

Bellof was catching Senna in a naturally aspirated car which was acknowledged as perfect for the circuit and conditions.

The 1984 Goodyear tyres on the Tyrrell were also recognised as the better wet weather rubber during that period.

Supremely talented man all the same

221

Senna and Bellof shared some traits that made them excellent wet-weather drivers. No fear, as brave a pair of drivers motorsport has ever seen. Sadly they both suffered a similar faith too, both killed in racing incidents.
That's what struck me about Verstappen today when he spun and almost hit the wall. He was on the radio a couple of seconds later and was totally calm. He even dived into the next corner defending against Rosberg as if nothing had happened. That is bravery and confidence for you, and that confidence will grow and grow untill the rest of the field will have a hard time believing they can beat him. That was Schumachers most important asset, his confidence. He believed 100% he was the best and couldn't be beaten, in the process he projected so much confidence the others believed that as well. The last 3 drivers with a claim to be greats, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel don't have that effect on the rest of the field. They are all one of several drivers with a claim to be among the greats, none of them are head and shoulders above the rest as Schumacher was. In Verstappen I see a driver that can rise above the rest and be the greatest of his era without competition. He has no real weakness now that he's getting the hang of qualifying. The king of overtakes, great defender, great at taking care of his tyres and a great wet-weather driver paired with exceptional confidence and ambition. Truly a scary combination at the age of 19..

222

Kimiwillbeback. I remember Martin Brundle saying that he only ever knew 5 racing drivers who were completely fearless, and they were all dead. I'm guessing he meant Ayrton and Stefan as two of those, but would love to know who the other three were.

223

Interesting perspective on the bravery of Senna and Bellof. You could add Gilles Villeneuve and in fact any driver that raced pre Senna's death to the mix.

When you think of Martin donnelly or Phillipe Streiff - motorsport was most definitely dangerous. Which is something I struggle to see now.

I agree Max showed supreme confidence, a trait familiar in drivers whigh excel in wet conditions, but bravery??

Bianchi's tragic accident was a freak incident with a tractor unit recovering a stranded car, otherwise the accidents witnessed over the last two decades have been staggering spectacles of destruction but equally staggering confirmation of F1's continued improvements in safety.

Schumacher once tested a Ferrari 126 C3 from 1983 and felt very vulnerable as he drove it round Fiorano.

More recently, in 2010, Hamilton drove Senna's MP4/4 around Silverstone for a Top Gear special. He quite obviously loved the experience but he also spoke in reverential tones of the bravery of that era.

Kimi highlighted earlier this year that F1 needed to be slightly more dangerous. I doubt the Finn is advocating life threatening cars but similarly I don't think any driver is genuinely concerned about safety anymore.

224

Or maybe you should reread what Herowassenna wrote. Pile of dung refers to the '96 Ferrari, not the race nor Schumachers performance.

225

Exactly that, thankyou

226

Sorry my bad. I thought he meant that drive.

227

Sorry, can't agree.
I see it as just the case of aerodynamically good car on a super fresh tires against all others.
Yes, his move on Rosberg wad nice, but that's it. Remind me, where did he finish?
That's it. Behind.

228

Dmitry, I hear what you're saying but its a bit one dimensional.

Max easily outperformed his team-mate, who is himself highly rated.
And apart from the performance, what really made an impression was just how assertive and supremely confident he was, whilst others were tip-toeing around the track.

Whilst its nonsense to compare isolated races across different generations of racing, objectively have to say that his performance yesterday was impressive.

229

Mr Redline, you sir put down in words what I'm thinking but fail to articulate well. 100% agreed.

230

@Dmitry, maybe you should consider watching a different sport. Maybe table tennis is something for you? Seriously, if you cannot appreciate Max's brilliant drive here, then probably nothing would get you excited.

Everyone can have their opinion whether this was as good as Senna's or Schumacher's drives, but this was a great drive either way. Remember that "best current F1 driver" Ricciardo was also in a Red Bull on fresh tyres.

231

Perhaps Dimitry is a Kvyat fan??

232

Hahaha yes the super fresh RAIN tyres you mean, which don't make a difference AT ALL? RIC's tyres where as new as Max's and yet he kept swimming in 8th place where Max just destroyed the field! And Max finished 20 secs behind Hamilton where he did two extra pitstops in the last 20 laps...

233

His rain tires were heated up, while the others saw theirs cool behind the SC. VES was clearly better than RIC yesterday, but he still finished 3rd. He could have easily been 2nd if he had just stayed out. Ricciardo pitting for inters and then setting a couple of fast laps screwed up Max's race.

234

Wasn't Ricciardo also in a RB ? Why wasn't he third?

235

Didn't Ricciardo have a penalty?

236

Isn't that (5 second!) penalty not his OWN fault and therefore part of his performance?

237

Yeah, he did. But that doesn't change the fact that Max was what, 4 places behind him after their pitstops?

I can't personally compare his race to Senna or Schumacher, since I was barely out of my diapers when Schumacher won in Spain, so simple math shows I wasn't even alive when Senna pulled his moment. But I've seen a lot of racing since then, and pretty much every F1 race since '97, and those couple of laps right out of the pits where pretty amazing. Three seconds behind Vettel the one corner and being in his gearbox the next. The four, five cars, in six, seven corners. The way he kept his car in front of Rosberg on the mainstraight, where Kimi, Seb, Marcus, Felipe, at the very least saw the guys behind them coming in head-on. Not to mention how quick he reacted on Kimi's frontwing being thrown across the startline, where The Hulk smashed through it.
And a special mention on how he was pinning his car in every little gap Raikkönen and Rosberg left when they drove behind the safetycar, just to see where the grip was for overtaking, where everyone else was simply cruising.
To me (With a pinch of Dutch patriotism, to be honest) this was truly one of the greatest drives I've ever seen, and an amazing view into the skills of a unique driver for whom it appears only a matter of time and a marginally better car to get a shot at becoming world champion.

And I'm going to end with this. If RedBull build that car that can truly rival the Merc's, Max'll be World Champ before Ricciardo will.

238

yes but when Max entered the track on 16th position, Ricciardo was on 14th....
16 laps later and Max is 3th and Ricciardo on a distant 8th spot.

Daniel Ricciardo has a lot to think about the months to come, because he was totally blasted away yesterday by a boy that still has "a lot to learn"...

"Daniel... Max overtakes on the outside of turn 3. He seems to find grip there..."

Only one word for this: EPIC

239

From where I sit it seemed like ric was max like in some of hIs overtakes but then indecisive when other opportunities presented. To me this suggests he may well have been dealing with an issue like fogged vision or he was simply uncomfortable in the conditions. Max on the other seemed right at home, consistently decisive and probably drawing on the bravado of youth. Drive of the year in my book. Bring on 2017!

240

how did ricciardo do in monaco?

241

He had the same problems VES had now: the team fucked up.
If not he would have won Monaco. And HAM drove outside the track while defending to RIC, without being penalized for it... that to.

242

@aveli
He did well and should have won that race. Max made a mess of his weekend and did not impress, even if he was the fastest in the race at some point.

It was a pointless attempt that sent him in the barriers.

What is your point?

243

Yeah 5 seconds which he took when pitting for inters.

244

He did. But after he had taken it, he was a few places ahead of Verstappen after the last pit stop. Ouch.

245

Ricciardo heading home hoping to find his ball's together with his talent when he gets there.

246

Whilst an amazing drive, not comparable to Senna in 84. VES had 2nd best car on the grid (and arguably the best handling), fresher tyres, plus I don't think he would have caught Hamilton. Senna would have caught Prost. None of this is Max's fault, maybe he is as good as Senna, but as a direct comparison, if he'd done this in a Toro Rosso, then maybe comparable. He certainly lit up the race though!

247

Pat symonds who was working with toleman said that senna wouldn't have made it to the end anyway because he damaged his suspension..

248

Pat Symonds along thinks Valtteri Bottas is comparable to Senna, Schumacher and Alonso...

249

Austin 2015, he did it in a TR

250

I've just watched a recorded and ff>> version of the race and that was one of the best drives I've ever seen. Max drives like it's a video game...and that save, wow.

I've heard Ricciardo say to the media that he makes the bravest moves in F1, well Max just put paid to those comments.

251

I just read why Max is so good in the rain from a dutch racer Guido van der Garde. He told in Holland they don't have wet tires in the rain with carting. So that's how he learned to explore the track... were is the best grip and so on... off course it rains a lot in Holland! Maybe that's why he changed also to the other tires. I already mentioned, it is just a learning curve from Max. Not only he was exploring the track behind the safety car, he also is still learning what the car and tires are capable off.... it is still just the beginning of young Max....

252

I felt for Dan Ric. Max zoomed past him and disappeared into the mist on tyres of same age. Now all the team respect he has earned in three seasons will not stop him demoting to 2nd driver at RB.

253

I've already mentioned somewhere in this thread about Max's sensational drive. It really was.

But it doesn't mean he's suddenly superior to Richards after one race. How convenient that Max fanboys make no mention of Monaco where Max binned it pretty much every session while Ricciardo was fighting for a win only let down by his team?

The only thing more irritating than fanboys are blind bandwagon fanboys.

Sorry Phil G, not referring to you. Just to the obvious nuthuggers all over this thread.

254

Monaco.... not many races for Max in an RBR car, let's be honest. I love Ricci, but Max seems to grow faster, matter of time to cause serial troubles to Daniel

255

Well I don't think one race will change all that much within Red Bull, but there's no denying Max made Danny Ric look average in that race.

256

Absolutely right about this. RIC is a great driver and I like him, but rain is the great equalizer and really puts forward the class of the driver himself. Max just destroyed Daniel here and even his own engineer had to tell RIC how to make passes the way he just saw Max pulling them off! That was a bit painful and RIC stranded in 8th coming from 12th after his pitstop where Max went from 16th to 3rd in the blink of an eye. Truly remarkable.

257

Vettel's first win at Monza, with Toro Rosso, should also be mentioned as a virtuoso display of wet weather race abilities. Vettel eventually showed us what he was capable of, when driving for a top running team. I believe Verstapen is equally capable and will do the same.

258

Yep, Seb, the superb rain driver..

259

that's not rain.. it's tears.

260

An incredible drive but Horner obviously detracting from his team's bizarre decision to pit Max when in 2nd place. Nico once again thankful for RB nailing their own coffin.

261

Erm lewis drive in silverstone 2008 and fuji 2007 were epic and not stated as the one of bests

But schumachers 96 is the best i have ever seen.

262

The best I have ever seen was the race of Jos Verstappen, Malaysia 2001, in an Arrows Supertech...

Jos went from 18th to 6th in the first 2 laps and then drove his ass off keeping all the champs behind him lap after lap,

"Jos was really flying", MS said in the post-race interview and his admiration for that performance shined through when he said it.

Only the fact he did not have enough fuel to finish the race kept him out of well deserved points.

263

In a refuelling era... running out of fuel?

264

The Arrows had a small fuel tank so they were as light as possible. Jos had to refuel 3 laps before the end and gone were the points. He came in 7th .

265

Sad but true, the small tank in that Arrows, along with the exploding engines, made it a POS

266

Agree but Jos drove that POS beyond its capabilities, that rainy day at sepang.

267

Find yourself a copy of Monaco 1984 or Portugal 1985... you'll be astonished

268

Fans are so starved of a really good race so Ves is the man now.
RBR is not at the bottom of the list. Fresh wets did help a lot though.
Nothing beats Senna's Toleman drive in Monaco, he would have won if the race was not stopped.

269

Bellof did.

270

Stefan bellof would have won..

271

What a spectacular drive from Max! Sensational! Just finished watching the highlights on Channel 4.

Today he is the driver of the day. Not even any doubts on that one.

272

He overtook his team mate with simular tyres and left him standing like he wasn't there, I knew he was good, but this good...Holy ****!!

273

Am I the only one who thinks P14 to P3 on fresh tires with a safety car neutralised field, overtaking slower cars isn't up the with the greatest drive ever and glosses over the poor call for inters and the spin which basically meant losing 2nd place?

274

The fact this post has 18 'likes' is indicative of the stance most people on here take 'against' Max. The guy could step in a Manor, get a podium while overtaking the whole field, and people still wouldn't be that impressed! =)) Yes that was an exaggeration but it comes pretty close to the truth!

275

Rain tyres...get a clue...

276

Agreed, but lets not diminish Max's performance, which was in any case impressive vis-a-vis what the rest of the drivers managed (LH excepted)....

277

So all of Mercedes's victories are worthless because all they did is overtaking shower cars? Where others were hanging on the raceline hoping to finish. This lad was the only one racing and he made a good show of it. Was it the best wet race ever? I don't knows, history will teach, but he made a potential dull race exciting.

278

Well yes...you are the only one!

- His tyres where a bit fresher which actually makes no difference at all with the WET tyres. He made the difference with his racing lines and racecraft.

- RIC, very highly thought of on the grid had tires of the same age and was just destroyed. I won't even mention Vettel, who was supposed to be a decent rain racer himself.

279

Keep it honest Joost, Heineken and any Dutch products may not be always the best. Max was impressive yesterday, but for me some moves appear to be too boldy only a teen brain so differently wired dare to try, one was on Vettel.

280

I don't agree.

When Max crossed Vettels line before that turn, he already nailed it. Vettel just drove alongside Max into that corner in order to "be pushed off" so he could whine about it and trigger a potential penalty for Max.
He had no business on that outside line but refused to back out of it, what would have been smarter thing to do.

281

@Joost, I'm not entering in to the debate as about how good Max was in the race but wanted to make a point about tyre's, new wet tyre's are definitely better than worn down wets as the tread depth helps to clear the water and the deeper tread blocks on new wets move around more helping to generate more heat and enable the tyre to grip better, his tyre's were also significantly newer rather than a "bit" fresher as you suggest.
None of that takes anything away from his fine performance.

282

@Truth: Of course there is some truth (=D) to your statement but my point was that the state of the tyres had very little to do with the incredible comeback by Max. Of course newer tyres are always somewhat better, but the tyrewear of the wet tyres are no way close to the wear of slicks. In decent rain it's possible to finish (almost) an entire race on these tyres. Hamilton did this in Monaco if I'm correct?

RIC had tyres of exact the same age as Max and the difference in pace was astonishing. All other drivers got a mandatory new set of wet tyres at the second red flag situation so none of those wet tyres were very worn at all. But yes, you are right the would have been some advantage. But...in my opinion it was the racecraft of Max and especially the unique racing lines he drove, that sparked this incredible run. It's also great to see that Max just doesn't linger and hesitate. If there is a gap, he is going for it! Overtake on Kimi after first safety car, overtake on Rosberg (awesome) after 2nd safety car and of course 13 cars in almost the same amount of laps in the end where he still needed to close gaps around 2-5 seconds in between cars.

And what about that save on the straight where 99% of drivers would completely wreck their cars after a spin and facing the wall at a 90° angle with 250+ km/h. That was amazing!

What I really like is that people on here were so negative about Max these last few races and in my opinion that wasn't entirely called for. This just showed his rare talent and although RBR really messed up, I believe this P3 feels even better then the sure P2 or even P1 if he didn't make the 2 extra pitstops in the last 20 laps. I even think this drive was way better than his win in Spain even though that always will be special!

283

Joost even Pirelli is stating that the tires are not that much of a difference old wets or newer ones....
https://www.formule1.nl/nieuws/pirelli-nieuwe-banden-maakten-geen-verschil-voor-verstappen/

284

Thanks Wendy! Always nice to have my statements being backed up by evidence from Pirelli themselves! =D

285

Whats wrong with vettel? he came back from behind to get 5th. Or are you saying that that ferrari is as good as a red bull?

286

Nope, I'm jumping on your band wagon too

287

. The situation was flattering in many ways, but his drive was still highly impressive. It is quite clear that the Red Bull chassis is right up there with the Mercedes, but Verstappen still deserves a lot of credit. I learnt from watching this that the guy has absolute confidence and no fear. Given the car, he will really upset the establishment next year.

Sad, because I can't get over how arrogant he has been at times this year, especially at Spa. He would have a fan in me if I hadn't already decided he's a total d*ck. But that could change...

288

Funny, because you can say a lot about Max but arrogance is the last thing that suits Max. But I guess I shouldn't judge you since all you see is some of the post race interviews...

289

When I look at him in press conferences and in person I don't see arrogance

I see a level of self belief I've only seen before in Senna and Schumacher. You saw it on track too in the way he passed cars. Hamilton has their level of talent but doesn't radiate that same self belief out of the car. Max has it.

All four of them of course have a very high level of skill too.

290

Thank you James, I didn't see it either in Dutch interviews, actually modest but his goals are clear.... he knows what he wants! That is something different than arrogant...

291

Exactly. The bigger the talent, the wider the electromagnetic spectrum he operates in. His photons carry more energy than others too.
Arrogants is a low form in spectrum and it must have one to know one.
Like i said before-to be a journalist is a waste of a talented person.

292

Yes, you are right, Erik and also it is not really helpful to be arrogant. You are not open to learn anything. I think Max is so eager to learn, that's why his learning curve is so impressive....

293

What was flattering??

294

@Swiss Newer tires at the end, a seemingly epic chassis and car setup, Nico playing it safe (too safe? he looked wimpy out there). There are other things in my mind but I'm not going to go into them because I wasn't trying to diminish what was a hugely impressive drive. RE JA's comment, I think he does conduct himself well in the structured conferences and of course I'll never meet him in person so I can only base my opinion off of what the media feeds me. I think in the pit at Spa after the race he was insolent and that's what has turned my opinion away from him.

295

I agree with you, but I suspect the arrogance and approach to racing are linked. Without one he wouldn't be trying some of the moves that he is and would be less of a racing driver for it.

296

arrogant and confident are two different things, or even curious. He wants to know everything about a track... you could see that behind the SC... in a Dutch interview when he was young, he told the interviewer that at school he was drawing the circuits in the lessons....

297

@Aaron quite true. They're not there to win popularity votes or our approval.

298
Tornillo Amarillo

Maxverstappenfest!!!

Really something special, Max is fading Vettel and a real pain in there for teammate Ricciardo.

299

I think Ricciardo will be more worried about Max than Vettel is at the moment.

300

Seb Vettel "the forgotten man"! 😟

301

Is C4F1 the only commentary that reminds us, Max Verstappen was on fresher tyres - yes, it was his call after RBR's 'alternative strategy' would have made him the proverbial 'sitting duck'. So let's celebrate his decision to get rid of the inters, his fight back through the field and his ability to overtake with a confidence that was enhanced by the fresher tyres.
Otherwise, we're only impressed until certain commentators and members of the press choose to make him the 'bad boy' once more.
So I vote we celebrate his driving based on his style plus all aspects of the car he has beneath him - selective memory, as we all know profits no-one apart from the Press.

302

Fresher tyres? Really??

303

Swiss, What race did you watch and how did you watch it? Live, highlights or like me - Both

304

Swiss: what race were you watching? Live, highlights or like me BOTH

305
Tornillo Amarillo

Max was great, I hope Teams give seats to young talents, like Ocon today too, great thing FI-Mercedes gave him an opportunity, like Hulk taken by Renault, Vandoore by McLaren, just I do not understand Ferrari in this point (why they didn't grab Sainz, he finishes races well in a difficult car or Ricciardo with an offer he couldn't refuse......).

306

Sainz did good. But calling the Torro Rosso an difficult car is not true. It seems to be one of the best chassis out there. Only the 2015 engine is not up to speed anymore. But that is not a problem in the wet.

307

Interesting view. Ferrari replace Sainz for....🤔
Hulk I have never believed is anything other than a reasonable midfield Driver. Another Heidfeld if you will.

308

i like verstappen but all this about his drive today is not true.
hamilton backed rosberg into verstappen and balted. vertappen overtook rosberg but couldn't live with hamilton. when he tried, he spun and nearly lost it into the barrier. when asked by coulthard after the race if he could've won the race, he said himself that victory wasn't possible but it was possible to finish second. he just couldn't live with hamilton in the wet.
vertappen made some very good moves, especially on vettel and perez but it has to be said that all the cars herstappen overtook later on in the race were on worn tyres.
let's be truthful with the praise.

309

The extra power form the MERC even works in the wet. Not as impressive but sil a big advantage. Put HAM in de RBR and we will see.

310

put hamilton in any team and he'll guide the engineers to build him a car to let rip..

311

I still wonder why Hamilton have had so much trouble with that clutch he designed himself during last winter break???

312

I think that just shows how well Hamilton was driving. He was the fastest guy by some margin and never once lost control of the car.

313

He did not have to fight for position.
He could keep his tires in the operating windows easily (by keepng the same pace and not bothered by backmarkers of defending and cooling your tires)
He kept his speed proving the tire degradation was minimal, so fresher tires not really mattered.
BTW: The fastest lap was by VES.

314

you tell them..

315

Are you being serious aver ? Did you not also not note that Ricciardo also had the same wet tyres but could only finish 8th. He didn't say he couldn't live with Hamilton . He said it would have been more difficult to get Lewis as he was the only other driver using the 'correct' karting lines but he certainly would have kept up.

316

and ricciardo was quicker on those intermediates..

317

VES did the fastest lap on Full Wets.

318

Because Ricciardo got them first when it was a lot dryer on track.... After Verstappen was pitted for inters it started to rain again.
Dont leave out facts, its hurting your arguments....

319

Dear aveli your point about inters is sort of invalid as it was never intermediate weather really anyway . My main point is Ricciardo did the same strategy as Max. and finished 5 places lower despite having been ahead when the SC pulled in . Also Ricciardo pitted earlier than Verstappen for inters and therefore he was faster because he had more laps to get heat into the tyres

320

You do know that in these condintions you can drive a 2 races on wets? So the worn tieres is really besides the truth.

321

True, Formula 1 supplier Pirelli has given full credit to Max Verstappen for a "magical" performance in Sunday's Brazilian Grand Prix, amid suggestions that he held a tyre advantage.

322

Not the case.

324

Well he was behind Ricciardo on L55 in the same car with the same tyres and finished third, 9 sec in front of Ricciardo who finished 8th.

325

If you're counting secs and comparing apple with apples then time corrected for the penalty DR picked up verstappen finished up 3.5 secs in front at the finish.

326

He'd already served the penalty by then.

327

so he was quicker than ricciardo on those tyres and ricciardo overtook 5 cars fewer.. the fact remains, he didn't blitz the field as suggested above.

328

from 16 to 3 yep he definitely blitzed the field.
A shame we missed some rounds.. he would have had ROS and HAM to.

329

yeah right, couldves would'ves never happen!