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Max Verstappen frustrated by USGP gearbox failure and “totally unusual” F1 pitstop confusion
Red Bull Racing
Max Verstappen
Posted By: Alex Kalinauckas  |  24 Oct 2016   |  3:32 pm GMT  |  169 comments

Max Verstappen lamented an “unfortunate” gearbox failure that caused him to retire his Red Bull Formula 1 car from the US Grand Prix last weekend.

The problem forced the Dutch driver to slow to a crawl on the Circuit of the Americas’ main straight on lap 28 of the 56-lap event, and he then pulled off and stopped at the exit of Turn 18.

Verstappen had been providing much of the action during the race as he caught and passed Ferrari’s Kimi Raikkonen after falling behind the 2007 world champion at the start, and then told his Red Bull team he was “not here to finish fourth” following a warning about preserving his tyres while running in that position behind Mercedes’ Nico Rosberg.

Nico Rosberg

When he entered the pits for his second stop on lap 26, Verstappen caught his Red Bull mechanics completely unaware by coming in without being called and he lost almost ten seconds waiting for them to fit his car with medium tyres.

Although the gearbox failure meant any time lost at that pitstop would not ultimately matter, the 19-year-old was left wondering what might have been as he was running within striking distance of the podium during the early stages.

“It was a very unfortunate way to end the race, especially as the first part was so positive,” he said. “The start was OK, being on the harder compound means it is always going to be tricky but we managed to get away and stay in front of Seb [Vettel].

Max Verstappen

“I was happy with the pace and I felt good out there, it was a nice battle with Kimi who I was glad to pass. I’m sure there was the ability to race the Mercedes today but it is just very hard to pass them due to the straight-line speed.”

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner explained that Verstappen’s misinterpretation of a call to push hard in an effort to undercut Rosberg as an instruction to pit caused the pitstop confusion.

He said: “He thought he heard a call the previous lap but got himself confused. It’s something that is totally unusual. He just arrived in the pitlane and said, ‘I’m in the pitlane!’

Max Verstappen

“We’re not very good at fitting tyres when we don’t know he’s coming in. He hadn’t heard anything on that lap, so it was basically the previous lap. He had been told to push, which was to close the gap to Nico [Rosberg] because we were going to try for the undercut on him.”

Just two laps after the slow pitstop, Verstappen’s stricken RB12 at the Turn 18 run off area triggered a Virtual Safety Car, which allowed Mercedes to pit Rosberg and keep him ahead of the other Red Bull of Daniel Ricciardo thanks to a “free” pitstop as the field were forced to run at a slower speed due to the VSC.

The gearbox problem had begun to take effect shortly after Verstappen had left the pits from his unexpected stop and it ended his race as he accelerated onto COTA’s main straight on lap 26.

Max Verstappen

Verstappen appeared to be attempting to drive back to the pits and he passed a number of places to stop the car where it could be safely recovered by the marshals.

But he explained afterwards that it was his Red Bull team that had told him to try and keep going before instructing him to pull over. When he did stop, a problem with the neutral safety button on the car’s cockpit prevented the marshals from moving it quickly, which activated the VSC.

“The team told me to keep on going, they said there is a serious issue,” he said. “And then at one point they decided ‘OK Max, stop the car over there’.

Max Verstappen

“It was in neutral, but the car got stuck. You can press a button on the top [of the cockpit] but that didn’t work. So that’s why the Virtual Safety Car came out, otherwise you can just push the car into the gap.”

After the race, Both Verstappen and Horner were focusing on the positive aspects of the weekend in Austin where the Dutch driver had attracted a lot of interest after the FIA decided to implement a regulation that formally made it against the rules for drivers to move in front of an opponent in braking zones, a move Verstappen has used on a number of occasions this season.

Before the race at COTA got underway, Verstappen described the criticism of his defending from other drivers as “funny”, but welcomed the clarification.

Max Verstappen

He said: “It is good to make it more clear to everyone what is allowed and what is not so let’s see how it is going to turn out.”

Ricciardo: “we were looking good for P2” before VSC

Although Ricciardo scored his sixth podium appearance in eight races by finishing third in Austin, he was also left lamenting what could have been a better result after the VSC allowed Rosberg stay ahead when making his final stop.

Ricciardo had seized second from the championship leader as the pack charged into Turn 2 on the opening lap. He had been able to hold onto second from the first half of the race but had conceded track position by pitting for a second time on lap 25, five laps before the VSC came out.

Daniel Ricciardo

“I think we were looking good For P2 but then the Virtual Safety Car didn’t work in our favour today,” he said. “I’m not going to be too disappointed, it’s just cool to be on the podium here.

“I love coming here, the anthem was pretty awesome before the race, I had goosebumps, I’m not going to lie, and then the podium after was great. It’s another big bag of points and we at least had Nico’s pace so that’s encouraging.”

What did you make of Max Verstappen and Red Bull’s performance in the US Grand Prix? Leave your thoughts in the comment section below or head over to the JAonF1 Facebook page for more discussion.

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169 comments

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1

Young Max was awarded the official Driver of the Day award. Bit surprised by that - I would have given it to Fernando Alonso - despite being in his mid 30s, the veteran Spanish bruiser still relishes a fight (ask Felipe Massa) and a relentless charge.

As for Gerard Butler (above) - oh, how the Jocks would have loathed to have given an Englishman a winning trophy!

2

Fantastically immature stereotyping from a (Gaz) Boy, not a man.
There is absolutely no reason for any Scottish person to dislike Hamilton. Especially one who lives in LA.

3

Regarding DotD, I was one of the people voting for Max. The FIA displayed a note at the bottom of the screen about roughly at lap 25 (not sure anymore) and at that time Max made a few brilliant moves (on Button in the esses and Kimi in the braking zone). Also his radio comments were quite entertaining.

Near the end of the race I wished I could change my vote to either Sainz or Alonso, both outdrove their equipment I think but the problem is that the voting closes at the end of the race. Previously I used to vote after the race which I think was better albeit it meant you would not know the results until a day or 2 after. But hey, it's not as if it generates any points or advantage otherwise.

4

i didn't realise anyone over the age of nine actually voted for DotD

5

What makes you assume I'm 9+?

6

No not really Gaz. Us scots don't really mind that sort of thing. No scots were beaten into second by Hamilton, and it's not that sort of sport anyway. What we really loathe is English people calling us silly names.

7

Max must be doing something right bcs he was voted "The Driver of the Day" in half of races this year.
About the voting thing, you just can't predict the performance of their supporters.
Narain Karthikeyan was voted Most Popular Driver of NASCAR Trucks in 2010.
Nelson Piquet was MPD in NASCAR Trucks in 2012.
Also the most popular in Formula-E, where his Fan Boost Tokens were instrumental to give him an advantage in his Championship.

8

Like him or loathe him, Driver of the Day can't be anyone except Hamilton.

9

Driver of The Day, not Car of The Day.

The driver of the day obviously was Alonso, who I do not even like.

The idea of the "driver of the day" award is to recognize the driver that actually caused some level of excitement during the race.

10

The idea of the "driver of the day" award is to recognize the driver that actually caused some level of excitement during the race.

Is that the official definition? Or just your personal interpretation?

11

"Is that the official definition? Or just your personal interpretation?"

Yes.

12

Apparently Butler doesn't drink alcohol, but I was under impression that he does something else.
Even my wife noticed, she never watches the races, but she happen to pass by the TV during the post race interviews.
And seeing familiar face, she stopped for a moment and after 10 sec she said: "He is high on something strong".

13

I thought he had an air of paranoia about him too. Seemed a bit twitchy when the cams were on him during the race ha.

14

I briefed him before he went on podium and he seemed completely normal to me

15

@ james...why was he chosen in the first place? seemed to me to be a very odd choice and he almost didn't seem to know what to say/ask anyway? very poor selection if i may say so. I'm certain that you'd have done a far better job....

16

Max-fan here, but agree it shld rather have been Alonso's DoTD y'day

17

I voted for Carlos. Max has the second best car, but Sainz is the one I really think shined with what he was driving

18

Alonso? Dodgem driver of the Day shirley 😉

19

I am pretty sure the recent changes they made to the election process are to blame

Man's race was good up to the moment he messed up his pitstop and I am pretty sure most people already submitted a vote by then.

They should return to voting afterwards, with a maximum voting window of 2 hours.

At the end of the race, it was Alonso who earned that title, I feel.

20

On Dutch TV the race commentator remarked that F1 has analyzed that 25% of the votes for DotD come from the Netherlands. He jokingly said it would be fun if everyone voted for Max, although he already abandoned the race.

Realistically it should have been Alonso or Sainz.

21

That means 75 % of the world voted for... who excactly ? Maybe they voter for max as well !
You're talking shite.

22

Albert, there are 22 drivers on the grid. To get 25% of the votes would be quite a lot for a single driver.

23

so what you are saying is those indonesians who mass voted for haryanto learned from their former colonial masters ?

24

I doubt it. That episode in Dutch national history ended long before internet became wide spread 🙂

However also the Haryanto example shows that DotD is just a popularity contest and in the current form not so useful

25

I am amazed that after hearing several drivers contesting Max defensive driving tactics ( not just from Seb and Kimi ) Charlie "clarifying" the rules BECAUSE of Max, lately seeming to struggle with car set up in recent races, publicly ignoring team advice to settle a bit " Not here to finish 4th".. Max still doesn't get it.... I however do not put the blame entirely on him. He is extremely talented obviously and having to try to stand his ground among the drivers he is up against in the front running order I imagine seems rather daunting at times. Also the expectations to preform immediately after replacing Kyvat has to be a lot of pressure..
His father Jos had repeatedly said while Max was at Torro Rosso that he was trying to teach Max to avoid his mistakes as an F1 driver which in truth Jos was pretty damn good but his arrogance and lack of focus stopped him from doing much better than he did.
To me however, it looks like the fruit hasn't fallin far from the tree. Christian Horner is clearly hampered from correcting Max at all because of Dr. Marko who is the real team principle it seems...
It doesnt look like the weekends poor preformance is going to help Max grow from a learning stand point either which is a shame.
I am going to go out on a limb and predict that Max will not have a promising F1 future "IF" he continues to believe it is everybody else not Max

26

You might have a point there, but isn't this a learning year for him, as mentioned by Horner and Max. With set-up he listened to the team and look what it brought him in q3. Set-up changes he actually did not want. Is it Max fault that Horner is hampered from correcting Max. Guess it actually seems that it IS everybody else and not Max. I think he will learn a lot from this weekends performace. Presumed pit call was Max' fault wich he admitted on radio, you might have noticed his humble tone of voice on the radio. After gearbox failure he personally apologised to his team whereas Kimi just left the pits. It seems other drivers still have things to learn, just like Max. Come to think of it, he might be more mature than most at 19 years of age.

27

You could be right about maturity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZwluGshJ_E
But I never heard once that Kimi blamed his team or mate for anything bad.
And for partying - no one comes close.

28

Bull... Max drive a gratis race with beautiful passes on RAI and But. Being not there to bekomen 4th is the spirit of a sportman, it are not the olympics. Hé made a communication mixtape with Boeing, but is not the first and last to do that. If arrogance is a disqualifyer for a F1 carrier, what is Ham doing there then? And that a drivers that blames his team to be against him... VES learned a lot totdat and will only help him in becommentariëren the you gestuurd WDC in history with many more to come.

29

Great post. My thoughts exactly.
He is only 19 (so some latitude for being pig headed - look at Pascal in the sand trap ignoring instructions to turn engine off). but I find it hard to believe that Max will change his personality - he is inherently arrogant & I'd say pigheaded.

It's not age, it's who he is. At this stage of his career he needs to be a humble sponge - take it all in with high EQ. His learning curve has already started to plateau IMO & this is down to not be humble or showing gratitude. He then blames the team or someone else for the things he does (like diving to pits when he wasn't called in or parking randomly on the track).

Talented - no question his a rare breed, especially under braking. But long road ahead for this driver to fulfill apparent potential. I still maintain he has got too much too soon. As Tiger Woods has shown - all prodigies can fall from grace (& possibly never attain or regain any greatness).

30

Is he that good under braking?

Or is it that the car he is in has for years been the best under braking?

31

Max's Red Bull car is certainly among the best on the grid if not THE best car with stability and traction under braking!
Clearly Jos has not had a fatherly talk with his son about the dangers of car racing and hitting cars from the back in braking zones. I recall that Jos himself said that you as driver had absolutely no chance to avoid collision in F1 if driver/car ahead were slowing down and yourself too close. Essentially you would not see 'the light' before the crash was reality. As Jos proved when as backmarker taking out race leader Montoya just before finishing what would have bee Williams BMWs first F1 race win:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weFIjtjCHjk

32

@ eddie... A lot of what you have said is very true. I am not totally convinced that verstappen is all that is commonly touted. Yes, he is talented, that is patently obvious however that, by itself, is no recipe for major success. He brings with him a degree of discord insofar as his departure from toro rosso was seen as a positive by quite a few people. The combination of verstappen and pujolar was, by some accounts, quite toxic and led to disharmony. That is why pujolar was discarded 'poste haste' as soon as verstappen was shifted to redbull. I also believe that his father was substantially removed from garage attendances.That alone says a lot about the verstappen clique. It will be interesting to see if the forecast new cars for '17 will substantially alter the status quo and will we see any of the current crop fail due to not adapting to the new cars. This is where we will see if verstappen has the wherewithal to continue to rise in the F1 ranks. I certainly hope so as we will then see, possibly, some real racing instead of the mercedes 'vanilla' championships. ricciardo versus verstappen should be a grand 'tete a tete' and could be quite entertaining if they are allowed to race without any basic team interference.

33

@ eddie... A lot of what you have said is very true. I am not totally convinced that verstappen is all that is commonly touted. Yes, he is talented, that is patently obvious however that, by itself, is no recipe for major success. He brings with him a degree of discord insofar as his departure from toro rosso was seen as a positive by quite a few people. The combination of verstappen and pujolar was, by some accounts, quite toxic and led to disharmony. That is why pujolar was discarded 'poste haste' as soon as verstappen was shifted to redbull. I also believe that his father was substantially removed from garage attendances.That alone says a lot about the verstappen clique. It will be interesting to see if the forecast new cars for '17 will substantially alter the status quo and will we see any of the current crop fail due to not adapting to the new cars. This is where we will see if verstappen has the wherewithal to continue to rise in the F1 ranks. I certainly hope so as we will then see, possibly, some real racing instead of the mercedes 'vanilla' championships. ricciardo versus verstappen should be a grand 'tete a tete' and could be quite entertaining if they are allowed to race without any basic team interference.

34

Certainly doesn't help that a duff weekend is reinforced with a Driver of the Day award! With all this hype, how is he going to get an understanding the he needs to develop and improve when people are already making out that he is GOAT / Future GOAT? The team stop short of castigating him for his errors, so do they condone random pitstops and burning out tyres against the team's direction? He is some way behind Ricciardo in most metrics at the moment, and Daniel rarely makes mistakes, and is pretty good at damage limitation...

35

What doesn't he get Eddie? That he's in Formula 1 to race? That he needs to get out of the way of "respectable" champions as Hamilton, Button, Alonso, the Ferrari boys, etc. that seemingly need a rule change to pass a disobedient teenager? I guarantee you that Verstappen won't change his style and mentalit. And exactly because of that he will win multiple world titles. For years, we have watched races that were more like a funeral procession (the US GP was one of them; no overtaking from top 6 drivers after turn 1 apart from VES on RAI). This kid is here to race. He's clever and he's fast. I don't see him do abnormal things other than defending his position or pass someone on the limit. I wonder if you would have the same opinion if you shared the same nationality.

36

Here in Australia we are tired of the Max Max while at the same time DR continues to beat Max most times in both qualifying and races. It has become quite obvious the media bias against DR. Grapicly demonstrate do in qualifying when sky f1 also known as the Lewis Hamilton show here, announced that Max had out qualified Ric even though Ric was still completing his lap. As an after thought oh Ric has beaten Max! The Dutch have a reputation in Australia as being arrogant and Max does very little to change that view.

37

Interesting. In Western Canada, Australians have a reputation for being [Mod]. Funny the way the world works 🙂

38

Well that's a generalisation - our family have friends in Western Canada and they love us!

39

@ Twitch 6 ...That's interesting to hear. Here in australia canadians are viewed as [Mod] Funny the way the world works eh?

40

Kenneth, is there a country that Aussies don't have a negative opinion of? Think pretty highly of yourselves though lol.

[Mod]

[Please end this discussion now and let's stick to F1 - Mod]

41

I think you just proved Twitch_6' point, Kenneth 😉

42

Well, Ricciardo only has one podium finish more in the same time, and that was last race. That's pretty impressive, since Verstappen has far less experience.

43

Is this in your view Max' fault? Or the media? I have never been in Australia unfortunately. But could it be that being straightforward and to the point is being interpreted by other cultures as being arrogant. Might be slightly confusing for people who call complete strangers: Mate and good friends [Mod]. I personally like RIC but he could come across by some people as a Disney character but maybe I also Goofed on this one.

[Do not use the type of language that we have moderated out the above comment on this site or your posts will be automatically deleted in the future - Mod]

44

To mods, I apologise for using these words, was not my intention to swear. In my innocense I tried to put a point across, using a female bodypart that should not be used. Hopefully the rest of my reply was respectful without trolling.

45

Did you miss the part where he took complete guilt for the faulty pitstop at all? People can make mistakes and guess what: Max is one of them. No problems if you dislike Max, but at least come up with some good arguments.

46

@ philip 110....It would be impossible not to take the blame for that massive brain fade.... making an unplanned pitstop! Really, you guys are the epitome of insolent. No one spoke to him at all during that lap!!! To then give him credit for owning up to what the world already knew is ridiculous. To say, as another poster has that 'he doesn't blame the team for the gearbox issue' is another example of arrogance! How could he make that statement when at that stage no one knew what the problem was. Big deal....oh what a sensible and caring lad not to blame the team. Get real. This is a grown up business not as, mark webber once said, ' F1 is not a finishing school'

47

For Max, rightly or wrongly, this year is a finishing school. He's still young, under constant scrutiny and equipping himself rather well all things considered. He will make mistakes and blunders and, in my opinion, should have been in GP2 to make them. Next year he'll have 2 years f1 behind him and I think I'll be a harsher judge at the end of 2017 than now.

48

i think there's a good case to say that a Max caused the gearbox to fail from either overheating during the unplanned pit stop or from ignoring the team's request to ease up. Hey, everyone makes mistakes but ignoring the team to satisfy your own ego is pretty weak.

49

Well. Max admits he made a huge mistake with the pit stop. And doesn't blame the team for the gearbox issue.

And he dropped to a 3 second gap after the remark from the pit wall. And they planned to undercut Rosberg to claim the 3th place he was aiming for.

So basically. I really don't get your point.

50

He has admitted in post race interviews that the pit stop was his mistake (something which I believe should have been mentioned in this article). He also has apologized for that to his pit crew.

As for pressure: 6 podiums in what he still describes as 'a learning year'. Let's judge after next year.

51

I thought Lewis Hamilton pulling up at the McLaren pit in his Mercedes would take some beating as a pitstop horlicks, but The Boy has taken the biscuit with his phantom box call.

Why haven't RB been fined for allowing him to drift back and forth across the track at slow speed? There was no chance of the RB being fixed in the pits, Verstappen could have been dropping oil all around the track for no reason whatever.

52

Why do you comment based on such little understanding of what you are watching.

-there was no chance of fixing that RB. You know this because you're an F1 mechanic? How many cars have we seen reset electronics and carry on in recent years?

-Could have been leaking oil. Could have, but wasn't....so, total non-issue. If he was, he would have been told. People seem to forget that the entire time Max is making his was back to the pits, he's talking to the pit wall. If the car was leaking oil, marshals would let the team know. No one ever retired from a race because they MIGHT be leaking oil lol.

This is the best one
-drift back and forth across the track at slow speed. If you don't understand what Max was doing, why make negative comments towards him. You really need to up your racing IQ. I'm not going to explain why Max was weaving from left to rigt, you can go learn that on your own. But I promise you, he was doing the right thing, following racer's protocols to a T. Not Max's fault you don't know what you're watching.

And here I though F1 was for the educated sports fan....

53

twitch, they should have told him to pull over straight away. Fixing cars mid race is incredibly rare these days, as you say sometimes an electronic reset can help, but this was clearly a mechanical fault, and they can't be fixed quickly. With his very slow speed, any attempt to fix the car would have been pointless anyway as he would have been at least a lap down by the time he crawled back, so zero chance of points. Leaving him out there just caused a potential hazard for the other competitors, and could have reduced the teams ability to correctly identify the failed part due to further damage caused. It was all a bit pointless, and ultimately cost them a chance of P2 with Ricciardo.

54

@ Twitch...I have no idea what profession you work in but, as i said in another post, anyone with any knowledge of engineering would automatically assume that there was an extremely serious malfunction based on the sounds emanating from the engine! It was so bad that the commentators were able to play the sounds on air. To me that sounded terminal the minute i heard it and it subsequently proved to be correct. I am surprised that he wasn't given instructions to immediately stop and park the car in the very first drive in opportunity. To leave him out and subsequently ruin ricciardo's strategy was inexcusable...IMO.

55

Tim, Kenneth...so based on what you two heard through your television sets, you feel you are in a better position than either Max or the RB Pitwall to make a call on what should have happened. I'd forgotten the calibre of expert that frequents this site lol.

My main issue with Roger R's post was the way he demonstrated such little understanding of basic racing concepts, yet still felt compelled to express his views.

Maybe Max should have pulled over, maybe the pit wall was telling him otherwise. It's not like a Wherlein situation where the team is telling him one thing and he blatantly ignores the instruction.

The main issue that I have is people who use the point "Max MIGHT.....M I G H T...be leaking oil as reason that he should have pulled off. That's just....sigh...."might be"? Really?

Finally the bit about weaving back and forth across the track, and how it deserved a penalty. Again, demonstrating racing [Mod]. He was staying off the racing line, it wasn't hard to tell what he was doing. To someone who doesn't understand that, I can see how one might see it as "drifting all over the place," but if you don't understand what you are watching, why make negative comments about it on the Internet.

Why not make a post along the lines of "I noticed Max weaving from side to side while going slow. What was he doing? Isn't that dangerous?" That way, someone could explain. Instead, we have someone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about condemning a driver to a penalty for something that isn't wrong.

People like to think Amecian sports fans are dumb. I'm starting to think that's not so true. I know some [Mod] who understand the crap out of American Football, yet here we have F1 fans (fans dedicated enough to the sport to be posting on a website between GP) who don't have the slightest clue on how avoid driving on the racing line.

56

Twitch, a loud banging noise is never going to be fixed by an electronic reset! That point is moot anyway, as I pointed out before, with his slow speed and the pit loss time, he would have been at least one lap down. I don't blame Max at all, he was just doing as he was told, the pitwall should have told him to park it immediately.

57

I'm fortune in having very good hearing, you've obviously got a problem. Verstappen's car was making a noise like a tractor and was stuck in gear. The car had selection problems, no computer in the world is going to fix that. F1 gearboxes are tiny, there is hardly any room to spare, there may have been a broken part being bashed around inside the box. At any point that part may have jammed the gearbox, which would have stopped the car dead in its tracks or smashed a hole through the housing, resulting in gearbox oil being spread all over the track, in an instant.

Yes, I do know what I'm talking about and you don't have a clue.

58

@ Rodger R...yes you are 100% correct. I have stated exactly the same. well said.

59

Could havebeen spilling oil but wasn't. And didn't impede anyone. They have GPS you know.

60

Hilarious panic in the RB garage. Overalls pulled up in haste. One rushed out of the bathroom with shaving cream round his face. Another removed what looked like a packed suitcase so Max could enter the box. Not everyone put away the coffee and cake, I noticed....

61

Max, when a young careless driver claims he is not to drive here for whatever and later retires and gives your rivals a free pit stop, it is called a Hand of Fate.
It is perplexing why on Earth anyone voted for you to get another Driver of the day award, probably a Hand of Fate strikes only one time during the race.

62

Max described what the other drivers said as "Funny" huh. Thank goodness some common sense prevailed before he caused a bad accident. Raw talent is nothing if you cant refine it over time.

63

"Max described what the other drivers said as "Funny" huh".

No, he said it was funny to be the center of the conversation.

64

Plowing along regardless even with bits of gearbox rattling about is something I would expect from someone new to a car.
Maybe they need to show him round the factory and what all the little whirring cogs are doing at the back of the car.
Same with the blocking moves. unaware of what a crash into something solid would do in real life. The new rule has probably saved his life.
Thats youth and lack of life experience for you and could apply to any youngster.
Shame the media have tried to peddle this 'move over grandad' narrative and have been to frightened to criticize .DC's sidekick was laughable talking him up after a real shower of a performance.

65

Pit wall was telling him to continue. So he did.

66

It is obvious that he has not learned anything from his massive shunt in monaco !!!

67

Love Dan, but jeez I feel ill just thinking about drinking from his shoe!
Shame about the VSC and Max's gearbox, which along with Raikonnen's pitstop fail, took a lot of the interest out of the race.

68

Don't know about anyone else, but I think this whole shoe business is getting really tedious now and it was never that brilliant. Australian [or any other] bonhomie can be a bit taxing when it is relentless.

69

As an Aussie I thought it was mildly amusing the first time however it's gotten to the point now I to find it a little tedious as well.
Redbull even have a shirt called "The Shoey' which is lame as if you ask me.
I hope it isn't a big seller otherwise they'll be encouraging him to continue to it.
I'd happily post a picture of it however I don't want any posters having a fit about using 'data' to access an internet site.

70

Sars, somebody might get a varruca....

71

'I'd happily post a picture of it however I don't want any posters having a fit about using 'data' to access an internet site.'

😂😂 Thanks for giving me a laugh on my dull Wednesday morning Sars.

72

Totally agreed: personally never been the type to ingest all sorts of nonsense, just because it's 'bonhomie'. But.... I'm also not the ten pints a night Brit! I'm kinda glad some people out there behave outlandishly in the name of good cheer and fun! Anyway, do enjoy Ricci on the podium, so he can do what he likes (even if it makes me wanna retch!)

73

@Eddie: Tell me please what it is that Max did to you? Otherwise stop calling him arrogant. What i see is a young man who is friendly and polite. Making time for everbody and no diva-style. Not making excusus when it is his own fault.
Other subject: if you are realy a F1 fan, you have no other possibility than to aknowlegde that he has shown great skills. And that he is very consitence in his driving. Fan of him or not. If you can 't see that then you are not a F1 fan at all. (Forgive my bad english)

74

Funny how Ric claims he would be/could be in P2 without the VSC.
While Max was closing on Rosberg, Rosberg was closing on Ric. So Ros was faster than Ric and Max was faster than Ros but lacked top speed on the straight to pass him.
Ric was a sitting duck for Ros and he would have been passed easily on the straight.
It's a shame but..without the bad pitstop and without the faillure Max would have been behind slower Ric once again. If Ric did not move aside Max would loose ground to Ros and my guess is Ric would not move to let Max challenge Mercedes..just like Malaysia.. I am under the impression that these "unfortunate" proceedings where not unfortunate at all to Red Bull. They manage to keep up the happy teammates act for another weekend.

75

@ Jaap...i personally don't think that you understand how ricciardo was controlling his pace and looking after his tyres. Did you not notice that as soon as rosberg got to almost within one sec how ricciardo just put in a fast lap and pulled away easily? It's called strategic racing and using your head. you should learn from this...

76

Haha yes let's all learn from Ricci boy, the living legend of Formula 1. Was he still controlling his pace when Rosberg pulled away from him in the last stint? Or is he still nurturing his tyres and planning an attack later on? Somebody tell him the race is over

77

@ Chris...what race were you watching? who exactly had fresh tyres on?

78

In the last stint Ros was catching Ham. So it is pretty obvious that Rosberg was pushing fairly hard.

79

@ Kenneth and @ Dale... Same race. Ricciardo and Verstappen have pitted in consecutive laps twice. So they had same tyre choice and tyre life after their first stint. In the 2nd stint Verstappen was catching Ricciardo, and even after Verstappen dropped back a bit, his 2nd stint was still faster than Ricciardo's even though Verstappen had to deal with Raikkonen and Rosberg while Ricciardo was in clean air all the time. In the last stint Rosberg was on 6 laps fresher tyres, but he pulled away almost 13 seconds in total. So where is the strategic racing you talk about? The VSC cost Ricciardo track position and about 3 seconds while he lost another 13 seconds more in the 3rd stint while their is no point in holding back. And you think he could have beaten Rosberg with his so called clever strategy?

80

my computer is having problems..

@ chris....i would suggest that you read up on the latest comments from marko and horner where they seriously hold verstappen to account.

81

@ Chris...i would suggest that maybe you should address the latest comments attributed to marko and horner seriously holding verstappen to account!

82

@ chris.....well dude, your latest post would indicate that you as yet haven't read the comments made by both marko and horner vis a vis verstappens tyre deg as a result of pushing too hard. Anyone of the top drivers can put in very fast laps if they are prepared to trash their tyres.

83
Berk in the Merc

Max had a little faint at the back of the garage at Sepang or Sazuka. Maybe the pitstop could be explained by something like his brain/body not getting all the nutrients it needs or something along those lines.

Also Redbull should always keep the space the car fills during a pitstop free of obstructions when the car'ss on track. Max had to wait for a gun to get moved.

84

Well, I don't entirely agree with you on this. I believe Max has shown that he is in fact one of the faster learners out there on the grid. He adapts very quickly and just imagine all the scrutiny that came his way. Furthermore, just look at the stats and he is doing great, way way better then Kvyat did. It's also not a coincidence that Reb Bull started to overhaul Ferrari after Max arrived. RIC has been outstanding all year but he simply couldn't do it alone. And the car was good from the beginning as RIC got 4 straight P4's to start the year if I'm correct.

I also believe many are way too hard on Max, calling him arrogant etc. Sure he has his moments but all drivers have those, so they are all arrogant? He made an obvious mistake with the pitstop but he took the blame 100% for it, didn't point any fingers. The same when he messed up the whole Monaco weekend. So far he always bounced back very well.

But about your prediction that Max won't have a promising F1 career maybe a bit like what happened to Jos. So far, how do you think RB feels about Max's performance so far, compared to what they expected? Do you believe they demanded 6 podiums of the 18/19 yo of which one incredible win and four P2's? You think they expected him to be the most talked about driver (both positive and negative) on the grid, which whichever way you look at it is an absolute goldmine for Red Bull marketing-wise. Even here, a place where for some reason (I think his self confidence and his head-on approach to the established order like Ferrari disguised in an excuse like dangerous driving) people are very anti-Max, everyone is taking about him and has an opinion. The same can't be said about the Palmers, Magnussens, Gutierrez and Kvyats of this world who have imho a lot less promising future then Max.

So what you think is a promising future? Is that only multiple WDC's? After not even two seasons he already achieved more then 80% (just a guess) of drivers achieve in their whole careers (1 win, 6 podiums, busload of points). If RB closes the gap to Mercedes even more (which is to be expected, but no certainty) he will probably content for his first WDC even tho he might have to leave it to RIC or a Mercedes fellow, isn't that a promising future? I am not trying to bash anyone here I am just trying to understand why so many here are so hard on the boy? Why you consider him arrogant? He makes mistakes, yes and if it's his fault he'll admit that. I've seen most of his interviews, I don't think he comes across as arrogant at all. Sure he is self-confident but aren't all F1 drivers? He seems relaxed and imho just like a nice guy. Now, can he be a sore loser (like at Spa for example), hell yes! Can it be annoying? Probably, but look at Hamilton, probably the sorest loser I've ever seen, all great athletes HATE losing. That's almost a pre-requisite to even make the top, that's not arrogance.

Sorry, for this long post! I'm just trying to create a discussion on here to understand all the negativity from the Max haters. I know I've been a bit over defensive of Max before, but I do realize he is not perfect, but I believe that's okay at 18 yo and a breeze of fresh air in a pretty dulled down modern day F1. Please provide me with insight about why Max comes across as more arrogant than let's say Hamilton, Senna or Schumacher and why his self-confidence might be a bad thing? And try not to dwell on the 'dangerous' driving too much, he walked the line of what was allowed, it's clarified now and that's probably it. Very curious to hear what you guys think. Thanks for any contribution.

85

Joost: Don’t take it the wrong way but this post of yours is far more objective than your previous ones where you defended Max over the new rule regarding moving under breaking. (All drivers on the grid wanted this issue clarified because it concerned safety which is paramount in a sport that is already dangerous.) Max is a super talent and the decision to promote him to the senior team (Red Bull) at the expense of Kvyat was absolutely the correct one. I agree with you that Max has played a large part in RB surpassing Ferrari in the Constructors’ Championship. Even Ricciardo has said that he has had to raise his game since Max joined the team and generally F1 commentators agree that they now constitute the best pairing in the sport. In Japan Horner was asked who is the best driver pairing he’s had to manage and unhesitatingly said Max and Dan. A big statement considering Webber and Vettel gave RB four driver and constructor championships. But of course their relationship was fractious. Being so young Max will make rookie errors and say things that he may regret later so he needs to be cut a bit of slack. What is inappropriate (although it doesn’t seem to worry him) is all the over the top stupid comments that have posted on this forum. By the way Jost have you noticed that Lewis Hamilton unfairly cops regular negative criticism from posters when he does accept responsibility for his mistakes and warmly thanks his team for his successes. So Max is no orphan when it comes to criticism.

86

Yes, I had some rather pissed of / emotional responses where the rule change was concerned and I am still of opinion that it shouldn't have happened but it is what it is. Apologies for the tone of those messages but I just find it really unfair many here dismiss Max as a brainless and dangerous driver. My real point was/is that most people are against Max because he is challenging their own favourite drivers/teams and is fearless in doing so. But it's done now and I believe Max is smart enough to not risk stupid penalties because of this. We'll see though.

I am however certainly not blind for mistakes that Max absolutely made. Monaco, pitstop in Japan among others, but I don't get why people find him arrogant. I always have seen him man up for obvious mistakes and be 100% trua about it. I also never hear him boast or predict unreasonable results and he is always very respectfullittle in regards to RIC and the other drivers. On track however he doesn't care who is near him, he just races.

Largely agree with whole post so I don't think we really have that different opinions about him! And yes he is Dutch and I am too. Let us be happy that we finally have a really good driver that competes for podiums every week! =)) Totally new experience for us so us Dutch might be a bit protective haha. I also heard 25% of DotD votes came from NL but I also know that certainly not all of them are for Max since, believe it or not, we also haveany F1 fans that do know how to appreciate other drivers. I voted Sainz and on a Dutch F1 site I regularly come most voted either Alonso or Sainz. Even though Max shouldn't have been DotD this time, fact remains many appreciate his style and his overtakes on Button and Räikkönen. Besides a large group of 'haters', apparently he also has a lot of fans across the other roughly 80% of voters.

87

You can not force anyone to like or dislike. People relate to sportsmen by seeing what they have in common. To be victorious you have to be bull headed, like Max is. To be loved, liked and respected you have to be humble, show true emotions and accept defeat with grace. Max may be missing some of these at the moment. The only driver I would love on the grid at the moment is Felipe Massa. His behaviour after loosing championship to Hamilton was exemplary.

88

I see what you're saying and I do get that Max's aggressive and 'take no prisoner' style can come across as not very likable. I only wanted to stress that people should cut the boy some slack and give him some time. I also don't see how he is arrogant in any way shape or for, but of course anyone can have his own opinion and that's only good I believe! And yes, Massa (although a bit of a whiner maybe) was very gracious on a pretty hard time and a true, likeable professional!

89

I'm concerned he isn't being taught the importance of humility and the ability to own up to mistakes in a manner that will foster a completely different legion off fans other than those that are young and Dutch.
This 'never my fault attitude' that has come across after the incidents in Hungary and Suzuka have only reinforced the opinion of many that young Max seems to be reading his own press and therefore is out of touch with the way fans outside of his homeland actually see view him.
I don't want to see him become another Lewis Hamilton and that's the major concern I have with him alongside those I have mentioned above.
As a future WDC in the making I really want to be able to like him anfd I find it difficult at the moment.
Just my two cents Joost..

90

Again with Lewis ?
Now Max ?
But your boot sipping Aardvark is the "Magic Mike of F1".
Leave it out & turn it in (London speak)... the grinning backpacker is as interesting as his below average flapping err I mean rapping.
Change the bleeping record.
I don't think both drivers require your "love". Perhaps you should unclench slightly so you don't hold so much judgemental jibber jabber.

91

And I certainly appreciate your two cents! =)) I do think however he is learning from mistakes. Maybe he isn't that humble on the outside because of his confidence in own ability, but he is always respectful in his interviews about all drivers, his teammate and never makes unrealistic predictions or boasts. On track tho, you are right, he is a true racer and very convinced he is right most of the time. I can see that might be dislikeable sometimes but I think it's a way for him to cope with the immense pressure/scrutiny he faces every week. If he would lay on his back and submit in a response to the criticism of the other drivers and media, they would feel they got to him and own him on track. I believes he is trying to be as tough as possible but somewhere I feel like he actually might be happy about the rule change and that things are more clear now. Just what I think tho.

92

I would like to think your right and he indeed does continue to grow not only as a driver but particularly as a man.
It must be hard to have to deal with the media attention that comes from being in his position at such a young age however he is also extremely fortunate to be where he finds himself as well.
His career trajectory can go either two ways though Joost and it will be dictated by how fast he learns between the ears.

93

@ sars...i would like to add to that...if i may. verstappen's arrogance was on full display when he stated publicly that he 'would drive others off the track' if he decided to? Couple that with other issues that have arisen in the past and it's easy to see where the criticism is coming from. His followers are already falling for the mantra of the hamilton fans. They are labelling any criticism of verstappen 'hate'. How pathetic. Just because someone exercises the right to free speech they are immediately labelled a 'hater'. This is a global issue that covers many other issues but now it is infiltrating into the everyday discourse on sites like JA on F1. It's rubbish. Then to compound this latest fiasco by saying 'Oh well he admitted it was his mistake" beggars belief. As if it could of been anyone elses!! I am happy to support verstappen in his adventures but please grant me the right to criticise without the labels.

94

Aussie drafting on one another's rear wind. Next we'll probably see a giant Wickerman of Max and Lewis being set alight by the two Aussie weapons ! While we have a grinning Buddha like version (I apologise to Buddhist & state the aussie is no where in the celestial man's league) of DR sipping from a shoe.

95

@ rupert ?

96

A lot of the other drivers openly show their respect and affection to RIC and probably more than any of their peers. Do you have a problem with that as well?

97

Of course you can criticize his mistakes but if you really claim there aren't some serious Verstappen-[mod]s on here then you didn't read very well. But of course anyone can vent his feelings, I do too, but it's the false claims and arguments that are being used to label him all kind of thing that I find so disappointing.

For example the mistake with the pitstop. He was very humble and admitted it's 100% his fault. That apparently isn't enough but if he made up some dumb excuse (like I hear F1 racers do all the time) he would be crucified as well. lose-lose situation. Other are labeling hI'm a moron for driving on with the gear failure for so long and costing his teammate a VSC. He was following direct orders from the pit wall! So he follows it, it's wrong and if he would have ignored it, it would have been very wrong as well. Lose-lose again as well.

I do give you his Spa outburst tho, very wrong and there I saw for the first time a broken/very disappointed teenager in that interview. You are totally right but cut the boy some slack. I was there at Spa, unbelievable crowd with 60.000 Dutch fans just for him, great atmosphere, everything orange. The start went wrong and he desperately tried to make up and all went south from there. Wrong, but still somewhat understandable in that situation.

Hungaroring and Suzuka I just totally disagree with you. Really two camps about this. Especially Suzuka...if that's not allowed anymore (and it isn't) that's just crazy and all major players have said in the press that there was t anything wrong/vicious with that move, but yes it was just in the braking zone so not allowed anymore. Any racer would have done the same tho and the ones that shouldn't should be on the way out of their teams right away. Handing away a P2 in the last lap on a terrible desperation move FROM Hamilton, I don't think so.

But long story short. Of course you may dislike him, you have every right and it keeps the discussions interesting!

98

For mine it is not so much the fault of Max, but those older heads around him, particularly his father Jos and then Marko and Horner.

I think it is fair to say that they, along with the other 95% plus of people, knew that he was stepping over the boundaries of safety, but did too little about it.

Get him out of the car and he changes to a likeabl person that I couldn't see putting anyone in harm's way

99

Kenneth: Along with "free speech" comes responsibility to not offend, state untruths or say things that are irrelevant. So how would you regard people on this forum who said that Hamilton blamed someone in his team for his engine blowing in Malaysia when he implied or said no such thing or people who said Verstappen denied Ricciardo 2nd place in Austin when we know this is untrue or someone mentioning that Verstappen's father assaulted his own father as if this has any relevance to how Max drives a race car. Yes, Max has said some things which are immature but he is young, very young and some of the reaction from people on this forum has been equally immature.

100

@ adrian...wrong wrong wrong and wrong again. Free speech is simply that. Free speech is the right of every individual to express an opinion and if it offends then that is entirely allowable. It is your right to take offense and provide a counter argument. To try and shut down any debate on the grounds that you propose is exactly why there is a backlash globally. Irrelevance is only your opinion. I was trying to demonstrate the background that verstappen has/had as a possible influence on his attitude. Have you ever considered that we are all 'products of our environment' based on all our actions and interactions? If you don't like what is said here within the framework of robust debate then you need not read or respond. That is your prerogative.

101

I don't agree with you on the extent that speech should be totally free, but I certainly blame his father Jos for some of his actions and allowing the blocking circus that was to continue. Pretty sure he was a problem at the junior bulls as we2.

102

Kenneth: Of course I disagree with your response so in the spirit of “free speech” let me explain why. Democracy affords it’s citizens certain rights and privileges. But equally, to ensure social harmony, it requires citizens not to take any action that will inflict harm on others. Obviously free speech is a right that democracy provides us but as with any other right it’s not one that should be abused. For example, people should not throw racial abuse at other ethnic groups because not only will it lead to litigation (and clog up the courts unnecessarily) but it will create social disharmony. If people believe they have a right to be bigots or say things that they know will injure others because free speech allows them to then as a society we have a real problem. You would have noticed Kenneth that the Moderators delete words and phrases from some posts because they contain inappropriate language or comments that other readers may take offence to. In relation to your post regarding Jos Verstappen you referred to his assault on his father and that according to a personal friend of yours he has a “boorish and belligerent” personality. You then state no “wonder that the kid (Max) exhibits an outwardly similar aggressive nature.” A couple of things: Firstly, unless the assault was reported to police, investigated and proven in court it can only be considered an “allegation” of assault not fact. Secondly, what your personal friend told you about Jos being “boorish and belligerent” is what the law fraternity refers to as “hearsay”. With respect you’ve never met him so you can’t speak from a position of authority. Thirdly, yes, I agree we are to some extent influenced by the circumstances of our upbringing but to say that young Max is basically a mirror of his old man, and has all the baggage that goes with this, is unnecessarily speculative and not in the interest of a healthy debate. I think we can criticise Max without dragging his family background into the situation when really what we know is what we hear in the media. That both of us are Ricciardo fans and hope that he wins every race is something we can both agree on. Cheers.

103

Adrian

Some good points, well made +1 - apart from hoping Ric wins every race 😉

104

C63: Thanks for that. Well perhaps Dan can win most races then!!

105

@ Adrian...thanks for the response but i have to say that i stand firm on my original position. If expressing an opinion is taken as offensive then that is a subjective opinion which can be countered by a response. There are various legal interpretations of what constitutes 'offensive' and the onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt the 'intention' of making those comments. as for my comments re the verstappen 'background, that is all they were and that is what i stated in my post. In case you are in any doubt it is my contention that fathers play a significant role in determining the outlook and social attitudes that son's, and to an extent daughters, take with them in their adolescent years. If you are in any way conversant with legal proceedings you will note that 'social and familial upbringings are constantly being used as a defence in the courts and seen as influencing a persons behaviour, again what i was alluding to in my post. As for your last comment...then i couldn't agree more.

106

Kenneth: Thank you for your comments and I appreciate the civility in which we can discuss this issue. You may have noticed that my last post was in two parts. Firstly, the issue of “free speech” and secondly, issues concerning Jos Verstappen and his relationship with son Max. In responding I’ll deal firstly with the second of these. In accordance with the principal of “free speech” (which you/we quite rightly cherish) you expressed opinions regarding the behaviour of Jos and of course you have every right to do so, and you would have noticed that I didn’t say anything to the effect that you were abusing that right. You were expressing an opinion, nothing more nothing less. In the spirit of sharing ideas my concern with that is that you made comments about Jos’s personality which were based on “hearsay evidence” and a matter that didn’t even go to court. This feed in to your belief that: “Max Verstappen is only a reflection of Jos Verstappen……and no wonder the kid exhibits an outwardly similar aggressive nature.” My problem with this Kenneth is that you can’t rely on hearsay evidence and an allegation that wasn’t tested in court to formulate an opinion as to Jos’s personality and how his personality traits have influenced Max. I would further suggest that unless you have intimate or reasonable knowledge of the interrelationships within the Verstappen family your position on this is further weakened. Yes, I agree that Max seems at times to display an air of arrogance and indifference but it could be a personality trait that’s innate or learned from the playground growing up or from others in his life but to draw a direct link back to his father may not be correct. We can’t be categorical about this. If you disagree with what I’ve just said, fine, I respect your right to disagree. Secondly, to the issue of “free speech”. We have to be careful when differentiating between merely expressing an “opinion” about something and intentionally shouting “abuse” at someone because they can mean entirely different things. For example, as I said in my previous post, it’s not acceptable to abuse “free speech” by making intentionally racist comments about someone when we know that they have the propensity to cause harm but it’s perfectly acceptable for you and I to exchange opinions about the Verstappens as we’ve done so on this Forum. By the way, for your information, my legal training tells me that any matter concerning racial abuse that is brought before a magistrate would be considered a civil matter (civil trial) where the burden of proof to decide the outcome would be based upon the ‘balance of probabilities’ (i.e. one party’s case being more believable/probable than the other) whereas it’s a criminal matter (criminal trial) that is decided ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’. I don’t have much to add to what I’ve already said on this matter but of course you are welcome to respond if you wish.

107

I love the tight exciting racing but think the turning point for me about Max was when he stated that he would chase other drivers down and crash/bump them off track to take revenge. To me that has nothing to do with F1 racing or sport and just shows his immaturity compared to the responsibility given to him where he is.

108

You are right, wrong comment! But like I explained before, I was at Spa, his home GP and the ambiance was unbelievable and he tried to make up for his bad start and Vettel effectively ended his race. He was way too emotional there and in the interview you mention he could break down in tears any second and was plucking at his collar all interview. That's how emotional and upset he was. I find it, although wrong, very understandable andnI really felt for him but I guess for some people that could be a definitive turnoff that lasts his entire career. I don't think that fair but it is how it is.

109

Totally agree with you there.
Just like some people here want to imply that anyone critical of Lewis must have something against the colour of his skin.
The world it is a changing and in many ways it's definitely not for the better.
Heaven help our kids...

110

Interesting article.
19 paragraphs about a driver who got a poor start, was never in the running for a podium, had a bad pit stop because of his own mistakes, and then retired the car, and in the process cost his teammate a chance at 2nd place.

4 paragraphs on his teammate who got a great start, scored points and a podium. Hmmmm.

111

I understand the point you are making and I also think Max shouldn't have come near DotD, but here are the unfair assessments again. Start wasn't bad at all, good from the line and only lost one spot to someone on SS where he was on S. And Max didn't cost RIC a 2nd place (which he never would have gotten anyway) but if anyone did it would've been the tram giving him direct instructions on what to do with the car and where to put it. You can dislike Max, no problem at all, just use the right facts.

112

TylerN, by the same standards, you would like an article every 2 weeks that states: "Hamilton/Rosberg led the race from start to finish and made no mistakes. The strategy was optimal and the pit crew made no mistakes."? Would you also want only a weather forecast when the sun is going to shine?

114

@ Tyler N ...neat distillation of the facts. well said.

115

Well actually, Verstappen had more pace than Ricciardo. He was closing in on Rosberg who was closing in on Ricciardo on the slower Mediums. The gap between VES and RIC was within a few seconds. So I wouldn't be too sure that VES was never running for a podium. I think it could have turned out to become a fight similar to Malaysia between your local favourite and VES. Would have been interesting to watch, especially because I never see RIC defend well apart from against his team mate. Their launch at the start was actually identical. RIC just had a little more grip out of turn 1 on his supersofts.

116

Most F1 drivers drive to a delta these days tha ensures maximum pace and tyre life. Max may have been quicker than Ricciardo at one point, but they were on different strategies, and Daniel ultimately had track position (which is key). Max dropped back dramatically from Rosberg at one point, and his radio messages suggested a distegard of the delta set by the team. Ricciardo and his side of the garage rightly realised the race was with Rosberg, and were managing this before the VSC scuppered their plans. What you will also notice is that Ricciardo sacrifices mid-stint speed to maximise in laps, which is where real gains can be found as competitor tyres fall off the cliff.

117

It's hard to judge whether drivers are pushing hard or saving tyres. Only the engineers have the data to determine that. You say that the reason Ricciardo was slower was that he was saving tyres while Max' "dramatic" drop from Rosberg was due to tyre deg from pushing too hard. While you could just as easily say that VES was just a bit quicker than RIC and dropped back a bit when he realised it was hard to pass ROS at that moment in the race and to avoid ROS' dirty air and extend tyre life (that's what he said in a post-race interview). I think if VES' tyres were really gone, he should have been pitted in the lap that he made his mistake. Because Kimi already pitted a lap earlier and just set a new lap record. So he would have undercut VES if he stayed out for 1 or 2 more laps. RIC had indeed track position and this is exactly what was VES' biggest mistake: he should have opted for supersofts in Q2. This way he could have fought RIC for track position in the earliest stage of the race. Without track position over your team mate (or a completely different strategy) it will be hard to move forward as your team mate will usually box first and maintain his gap. After the first pit stop, RIC and VES were both on the same tyres with similar tyre life and same strategies so I don't find that a valid argument to prove why ROS and VES were catching him. You say RIC was racing ROS but what I often notice is that RIC is mostly racing his team mate rather than rivals from competing teams, based on how I've seen him get passed easily by his rivals while VES never gives up his position without a fight. It's true that VES probably disregarded his delta set. But I think that's mainly because he realised he's (often) given the more conservative strategy to keep him from attacking his team mate

118

To say that Max realised passing Rosberg was futile and dropped back is possible, but not in the face of the evidence that the team asked him to drop back and refused. There is a solid chance his mystery pitstop was due to the fact his fronts were completely shot from the understeer. Helmut Marko has suggested as much, too. The car language says a lot too: it's pretty easy to spot when a driver is pushing hard in the Pirelli era.

The reason that Ricciardo may look like he is fighting his own teammate, is due to the disparity in performance between Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari: there isn't much point losing time to a Merc, and Ferrari haven't been that close to them on track lately. If the fight was worth having, Ricciardo's track record suggests that you wouldn't want to be in the other car - he is among the best wheel to wheel and can pick his battles.

119

@ Big haydo...those are the same sentiments as i have espoused. Marko has sealed the argument with his comments. He knows infinitely more about the situation than any of the 'archair pro's'. what he said, and it was echoed by horner, makes infinite sense.

120

@ BigHaydo I think that Verstappen's instinct is to always want to move forward. And that he was afraid that driving more conservatively wouldn't give him a chance to pass Ricciardo (and possibly Rosberg) while he felt he had more pace. As soon as he realised he couldn't pass Rosberg in that instant, he started to think of another way to pass him later in the race. He's constantly adapting to new situations. Red Bull would probably want to keep those 2 apart and be satisfied with both drivers in top 4, while Verstappen must have felt that starting on softs shouldn't keep him from attacking for 2nd position. I think that's why he pushed a bit harder than expected in the first 2 stints. To be honest, I was a bit surprised that Verstappen wasn't called in for a pit stop when he made his mistake. Because Raikkonen was flying on fresh tyres and looking increasingly good for the undercut.

I agree that sometimes it's wise to pick your fights and there is a disparity in performance between the top teams. But if you're not fighting your rival teams, then what's the point of racing? What battles do you pick then? Verstappen has shown numerous times that he could keep even Hamilton and Rosberg behind in faster cars, while I have seen Ricciardo getting passed by Ferraris numerous times without putting on a real fight. So this excellent wheel-to-wheel racing from Ricciardo, I haven't really seen it.. But I like to believe you. Can you give me a few examples? That being said, I don't think there is anyone better at wheel-to-wheel racing than Verstappen. But if he does have the skills, this all tells me that Ricciardo is totally focused on beating his team mate. And I can imagine that, since Verstappen is labelled as some kind of wonder boy. I think we can expect a lot of fireworks between these 2 next year if they can take the fight to Mercedes. They're only friends as long as they share the same enemy. Most people find Verstappen immature and disobedient but the size of the Ricciardo's smile is highly dependent on whether he finished in front of Verstappen or behind him. I don't think they will be smiling as much next year

121

More than happy to provide examples, if you can highlight when Ricciardo lay down for inter-team competitors without good reason. Not sure where you're getting this Ricciardo obsession with Verstappen, it hasn't played out yet from my perspective.

Anyway, these were off the top of my head. Sorry you missed them, there's some absolute gold here:

- Australia 2012 - recovers from first corner incident with Senna to ambush teammate Vergne on last lap to score first points.
- China 2014 - Vettel ignores team orders to let Ricciardo through, passes him anyway.
- Canada 2014 - overtakes Perez around the outside to secure shot at ailing Merc for the win.
- Germany 2014 - after being forced wide at T1, comes back through the field and has mother of all battles with Alonso, despite being on older tyres.
- Hungary 2014 - cleanly overtakes Hamilton and Alonso in closing laps to take the win.
- Monza 2014 - late race charge sees him squeeze by Raikkonen into T1, then sell Vettel the dummy of the year into T3.
- Japan 2014 - overtaking drivers on the outside through the sector 1 esses.
- USA 2015 - overtakes Hamilton around the outside in the wet to lead - in an RB11!
- China 2016 - recovers to 4th after early race puncture.
- Malaysia 2016 - holds of Verstappen at T5-6 despite being on older tyres.

Anyway if you missed *all* of those you're either new to F1, or only recounting what you feel like. Funny how [Mod] works both ways!

122

Wow 3 whole examples within the last 2 years? I'm supposed to be impressed by that? Let's take a closer look at this year's examples.

China: Red Bull is the 3rd best team at this moment, so even after a puncture or starting from the back of the grid you could expect him to finish top 6, especially when your rivals need to make a similar recovery. Hamilton's and Raikkonen's races were seriously compromised, while Kvyat (who was demoted 2 races later for poor performance) finished on the podium in front of his "excelling" team mate. I don't recall any overtakes from Ricciardo on his main rivals.

Malaysia: Ricciardo seriously lucked into this victory. Much more so than Verstappen did in Spain because at both races Verstappen had more pace than his team mate. But as I understand, you often mistake a lack of pace for clever strategy. In Malaysia, Hamilton established an early lead, but retired sixteen laps from the end of the race when his engine exploded, leaving Ricciardo in control of the race. Rosberg was turned around by Vettel in a first corner accident that eliminated Vettel and forced Rosberg to work his way up through the field. Ricciardo raced Verstappen for the lead when Hamilton's retirement triggered a Virtual Safety Car, prompting Red Bull to pit both drivers at the same time. Verstappen had more pace than Ricciardo all weekend, and would certainly have passed him if Hamilton hadn't triggered the VSC. Ricciardo held off Verstappen at one attempt and you think he outclassed him? That tells me how highly you think of Verstappen. Post race Verstappen said that if it wouldn't have been his team mate he would have set him straight there and then, squeezing and pushing him a bit more wide (all within the regulations of course). In other words, he left him some space that he wouldn't have given HAM, ROS, VET or RAI, knowing that he would pass him later on anyway. We all know that Red Bull's call to pit both drivers under VSC (while Verstappen could probably have finished the race on his current tyres) handed Ricciardo the victory to keep him a happy boy. And again, WHO did Ricciardo pass this race?

Look, I understand that you root for him being an Aussie. And yes, he's fast. But don't tell me he's better at wheel-to-wheel action than Verstappen. Why is it that Verstappen is called a once-in-a-century talent and Ricciardo is not? Don't be so jealous of someone elses talent. Ricciardo is still a great driver, one of the best of his generation. But if you're so sure of his unrivalled greatness, I'd be more than happy to take you on a bet on who will come out on top next season.

123

No winning with you, is there? I suppose Verstappen should be good at wheel to wheel by now, seeing he keeps underqualifying the car...

124

Hey BigHaydo, have you watched yesterday's qualification? 😉 I was just wondering.. When you say that Verstappen keeps underqualifying the car, do you mean that he outqualified Ricciardo 4-3 since the summer break and 3-1 in the last 4 races? Haha. Or are you just referring to the first 5 races since Verstappen moved to Red Bull when he still had to get used to a completely new car? In anyway your comment is inaccurate. You obviously don't know what you're talking about man.

125

Not if you're not right no. Sure, now it's his qualifying. Let's just have the championship titles and race wins at the end of both their careers speak for themselves ok? Although I doubt even that will convince you

126

@Chris....did you by any chance see the pre race interviews when this very subject of tyre choices were aired? Obviously not, as horner said that it was the decisions of the driver and his engineer that chose those tyres and the subsequent startegy. Equally obvious was the fact that by choosing this strategy verstappens side of the garage believed that they could outperform ricciardo. Think it through before posting an indictment on the team strategy and its implications when you have no way of knowing the details.

127

@ Kenneth.. Yes I've watched those interviews. I know it was their own choice to start on those tyres. Verstappen must have thought he could stay out longer on his softs but battles with Vettel and Raikkonen compromised his tyre life. So after the first stint didn't work out for Verstappen they pitted in consecutive laps putting them on equal tyres and strategies. Did you by any chance realise that a strategy can change during a race? After they were put on the same strategy and similar tyres Verstappen was slightly faster than Ricciardo. So yes, up until his pit stop mistake, I think Verstappen outperformed Ricciardo. That is supported by lap time data. The fact is that Ricciardo won 1 place on his supersofts at the startfrom someone on softs while Verstappen lost 1 place on softs to Raikkonen on supersofts. But after that first few corners Ricciardo didn't do much special to keep Rosberg behind while Verstappen was only moving forward.

128

@ Chris....Once again you have made an error of interpretation. The latest comments by marko and horner will set you straight even if you choose to ignore what i said, which strangely enough, is the same.

129

Rather than referring to "the latest comments" of this and that, tell me which part of what I said is false. My argument is based on lap time data. Yours mostly on chauvinism. Not very convincing

130

@ chris...read the red bull comments re tyres then we can continue this debate if you so wish. To not avail yourself of the teams analysis is simply one way of avoiding the issues at the point of discussion.

131

Dude. I know it was their own choice to start on those tyres. So stop avoiding the issue at the point of this discussion. I said that they were on the same tyres and on the same strategy since their first pit stop. Are you saying they weren't? If you can show me those comments, I'll be happy to admit my mistake. And while you're at it, support it with some LAP TIME DATA to make a stronger case

132

@ Big Haydo...that is my point exactly, which i made a bit earlier to a dutch supporter who intimated that verstappen was on the way to passing them both such was his speed. Ricciardo was simply managing his tyres and pulled away from rosberg easily when he got a bit too c;lose. It's called 'race strategy'.

133

Max - driver of the day. It appears DOD uses the same voting system as Eurovision! What a joke. He gets mugged off the line by Kimi, drives in for a random pitstop and doesn't finish the race!!! He made one pass - Wow. Button came from 19th to 9th and barely rates a mention. I suspect 2016 might be the last year for DOD.

134

I think the results of the DOD vote being so overwhelmingly Max positive for many races and less reflected by his race conduct and results are due to the hugely engaged motor-sport fan-base in the Netherlands and the PC bot-net they activate for the voting at each race.

135

and that's exactly why i couldn't give a rat's who DotD is?
It's a popularity contest not an acknowledgment of skill and is completely irrelevant to F1. I can't believe anyone is concerned about it or actually votes for it - if you do, grow up and make a sensible comment on here rather than wasting your time voting.

136

Axel, it is amusing that some of the worst offenders at blindly voting for their favourite drivers on this sites DOTD comps, are still here and loudly complaining that Max supporters do exactly the same.....

137

TimW: Please refer to my post to Kenneth above regarding "free speech".

138

Adrian, I read it, very well written, and I agree with you. Not sure how it is relevant to my comment though?

139

TimW: Thanks for that. No it was relevant to your comment to Axel Knutt. just thought you might be interested as it's someone who you lock horns with.

140

Adrian, oh I see what you mean. Unfortunately I don't lock horns with that commenter anymore, he shut down the debate because I didn't agree with him....

141

It was the same on this site when we used to have DOTD

It was a constant source of frustration to us and other users which is why we stopped it

It's a nonsense if it just comes down to active voters rather than objective analysis

DOTD in Austin for me was a toss up between Alonso and Sainz

142

As always, your impartial and objective analysis of events is what keeps bringing me back to JAonF1.

143

@ james...you are not wrong, they both deserved a guernsey.

144

@ Bryan...yes, i agree. It's totally dumb like the changes to quali that were introduced earlier in the year.

145

As 4 drivers in front of him retired, Button actually gained only 6 places keeping nobody in a faster car behind him (apart from BOT whose race was compromised in lap 1). Plus he finished miles behind his team mate who finished 5th. So apart from the fact that you are both British I don't see why you see Button as a potential DOTD? If you screw up your qualification, it is more likely to overtake a few drivers that should have started behind you anyway. What annoys me from Button and his fans is that it's always the fault of someone else if he doesn't perform, which is becoming pretty standard lately

146

Born in Adelaide living in Tassie. Never been to the UK. Button was used as an example of probably 5 or 6 drivers that were more worthy DOTD

147

I'm not saying VES should have been DOTD. But who's really done something special this race? If you look at the end result, you could say Alonso, Sainz and race winner Hamilton performed well. But was that because they excelled or because they lucked into a pit stop under VSC (ALO and SAI) or benefited from an optimal start with no pressure from behind (HAM). I haven't watched Sainz closely this race but has he passed someone? I never see him do that in impressive style. Also Alonso's move on Massa was quite aggressive because would he have made the corner without wheel banging Massa off the racing line? Without the VSC Massa would have probably finished 5th and then maybe he deserved DOTD while now nobody speaks of him. I don't like it much that Alonso is one of the guys complaining about Verstappen's aggressive racing style while he in fact is no different (wheel banging, disregarding track limits, etc.). I don't like hypocrits. That makes me choose Sainz as DOTD. Never very exciting to watch but he had a good result in an increasingly inferior car.

148

couldn't agree more Chris. Spot on I would say. max brought more exitement in half the time with gutsy overtakes untill his luck was gone with a pitstop wich was entirely his own fault. Not driver of the day material but one to enjoy anyway.

149

Don't understand how losing out at the start, fluffing your pit stop and not finishing the race earns you driver of the day??
Were the voters (presumably mostly in the Netherlands) actually watching the race,
Alonso, Sainz and Ricciardo - who could have possibly beaten Rosberg except for VSC, were way in front for doth

150

Probably because you have to vote during the race. And up until his pit stop mistake he had the most stand-out performance with a few nice passes and the only 1 between the top 6 drivers. He lost 1 place at the start because he was on the less grippy softs compared to Kimi's and Ric's supersofts. I don't think Ricciardo could have beaten Rosberg as ROS outpaced him on the mediums already while RIC was on softs. My vote would have gone to Alonso, even though he made an aggressive move on Massa, the kind of driving he blames Verstappen for, using wheel banging to make the corner. But I guess that's only a problem when it's not in your advantage

151

Max is a rough diamond in the same mould of Juan Pablo Montoya & Jacques Villeneuve Jr. (his uncle Jacques also raced in F1). One weekend like Suzuka, he'll blow Ricciardo to the weeds on pure talent, but then the last race Ricciardo will use his experience and patience to outwit the Dutchboy. The hype is surging into the frontal lobes of Max's brain and he will probably suffer a tricky learning patch, which will humble him considerably. The next two seasons will see Ricciardo as Red Bull's title challenger, as Max tidies up his aggression and learns to play the long game, rather than chase moments of instant gratification through headline-generating moments. Max Verstappen will be a world champion, but he may limit his success through lack of prudence and wisdom. He is 19, but he has a Peter Pan-like demeanour- a boy who may never grow up, determined to live an innocent experience through life and his F1 career. Max could supercede Schumacher's records, but I fear he will emulate Fernando Alonso's nearly-but-not-quite achievements instead.

Overconfidence is clearly something that he will need to confront. The greats like Senna and Schumacher were seen as arrogant, but paradoxically wise and humble when acknowledging their errors. Max's approach of demanding an apology from Ferrari, Vettel & Raikkonen after the incidents at Spa was petulant and threatened to bring F1 into disrepute. It almost feels like the rules changes regarding weaving under braking from the FIA is the act of a teacher who has lost respect and control of unruly, yet intelligent students who are have a higher capacity than their master and are threatening to destroy the establishment.

Max brings an air of anti-authoritarian rebellion in his stride, but the powers-that-be may pounce and restrain his antics. However, if their force becomes excessive, Max may leave F1 at 22 to drive Indycar or something else (Rallycross?) that frees him from what he may to be an inhibition of his thrilling driving style.

152

I don't think they are separated that much on pure talent. It was pretty obvious Ricciardo had car trouble in Suzuka, and was a sitting duck in a straight line. The quali head to head speaks to this as well.

153

Ricciardo is fast and more experienced. Verstappen has more skills and cleverness. Next season we'll see what is worth more. One of them will stop smiling. In the past 2 seasons I have seen Verstappen pass and defend more impressively than most drivers do in a whole career. I have no doubt that he has a long successful career ahead of him

154

Don't mistake Dan's cheery demeanour as a lack of 'skills' and 'cleverness' - he has more than enough in this department, and even has Alonso's vote as the best driver this season (not that Verstappen looked particularly clever in USA, Spa or Monaco this year - Dan doesn't have weekends like this). I've been more than impressed with Daniel wheel-to-wheel with cars with a similar level of pace, where I see Verstappen passing slower cars by taking pretty big risks...

155

Ehm.. Haha. Sorry it made me giggle a bit when you said Daniel's wheel-to-wheel action with cars of similar pace is more impressive than Verstappen "passing slower cars by taking pretty big risks". My question would be: what on earth are you talking about? Daniel doesn't fight with rivals from other teams, only with Verstappen. He's obsessed with keeping Verstappen behind. I guarantee you that Ricciardo lost more than won wheel-to-wheel fights with top 6 drivers. With Verstappen passing slower cars you mean keeping the boys from Mercedes and Ferrari at bay every-single-time? Come on, your comments earlier on were quite informative but now you get a little bit too much carried away by your chauvinism. I understand though. Everyone supports their countrymen. I think Ricciardo is very fast and very consistent, one of the fastest out there, just not very entertaining to watch him race. I (plus his huge fan base and everyone involved in F1) think Verstappen is a blessing for Formula 1 because without him F1 can be very boring to watch. Just re-watch the US GP through American eyes and tell me what's so interesting about this sport. I don't take Alonso very seriously since he turned out to be such a hypocrit. He just can't stand the young boys are taking over. I would find it very amusing if Vandoorne gets the better of him next season. Maybe he can think of a few rule changes to prevent that from happening

156

Sigh another one. Seriously they are both very very talented. Both can do some great overtakes and defending. Leave it at that mate,[Mod]. I've followed them both since before they were in f1 and both have been impressive. Ricciardo is no webber and verstappen is not his father 😉

157

The rookie mistakes are piling up, with 2 more added to the list last weekend, the uncalled pit stop was a pearler. Being an F1 driver is not just about driving fast, realistically that's less than half of the skill set required these days. At 19 Verstappen is at least a couple of years of experience away from that point. I believe that RedBull have well and truly worked that out and are fully aware of the huge risks of placing too many eggs in the Verstappen basket. Right now Ricciardo is a far better proposition, more capable of delivering better results, more often.

158

Funny you should say that. Red Bull compared their performance after Suzuka, and they had exactly the same amount of first, second and third places since they both drove at Red Bull.

159

@ gary...and he comes with large serving of likeable charisma which is a bonus.

160

That picture has two sides: he might be very unlikeable to as many people as those who cheer him. Maybe sponsors/teams would prefer a Button character much more, friendly, amicable and as humble as a F1 driver can be. MV youth and novelty will be gone in a couple of years and if he doesn't control his arrogance that might hurt him.

161

I'm from the netherlands and a big Max fan. But driver of the day? I think it had to be Alonso or Sainz. So Dutch friends the next time that you vote put off that orange Max maak.

162

Max has some effective defensive tactics. Lets change the rules.
Max wins DOTD too many times. Let's change the voting system.
Max does................

163

The defensive tactics have been an unwritten rule in F1 for an age, it was about time that they clarified them. I don't particularly want Verstappen's car in my lap if I'm watching from the grandstands... plus DOTD was always going to be skewed by nationalistic bias - otherwise we wouldn't have had Rio Haryanto almost winning it for showing up in Melbourne!

164

@john steed....let's revise your first sentence 'max HAD some effective defensive tactics' . there always was an accepted manner of racing with regard to questionable defensive tactics and verstappen chose to ignore them. What has happened now is that those 'accepted manners' have been formalised...not changed. If verstappen chooses to flout those new rules of engagement then so be it but i very much doubt that red bull will be a total supporter especially if it effects loss of points re penalties et al!.

165

Max got DOTD... Haha

This "Driver Of The Day" title should be changed to the WGTBFB (Who's Got The Biggest Fan Base) Award.

166

It looks like Verstappen can't do any good around here, first he's arrogant for not listening to the team saying he's not racing for 4th then when he retires he's an arse because he listened to the team and kept on driving.

167

Funny how more and more people complain about his lack of respect and say that the greatest drivers did have respect... I remember both Senna and Schumacher deliberately crashing into a rival to win a championship.

168

Hello, i have been watching F1 since 1986 but its my first ever post. I have to say that after seeing Spa this year and Max's popularity i think its a really good thing for the sport. I think he is going to do well next year as Red Bull and Newey are on the verge of producing a rocket ship.

169

Freedom of speech comes with responsibilities. A responsibility that nobody gets hurt in the process. People that don't understand this principle have a serious problem.

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