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Was Max Verstappen right to refuse team order in Singapore?
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Max Verstappen Carlos Sainz
Posted By: Alex Kalinauckas  |  21 Sep 2015   |  12:42 pm GMT  |  268 comments

The Toro Rosso drivers Carlos Sainz and Max Verstappen have given F1 fans a lot of pleasure this season, but in Singapore they gave their team a headache with a team orders spat, which had to be defused by the team boss Franz Tost.

Red Bull and its sister team Toro Rosso have a policy of using one car to help another in race strategy (although this broke down in the Webber/Vettel days at Red Bull). And we have seen plenty of examples this season with both teams.

However in this case, Tost backed Max Verstappen’s decision to refuse an order to allow teammate Carlos Sainz through in the closing stages of the Singapore Grand Prix, as both drivers scored much needed points around Marina Bay.

Both men were mounting powerful recovery drives after setbacks early in the race. Verstappen’s car was pushed off the grid and he went a lap down before the fist Safety Car gave him a lifeline, while Sainz lost six positions with a gearbox glitch and then lost further time in a pit stop.

Toro Rosso went aggressive on strategy, putting the pair on supersoft tyres for the final stint to attack and pass the Lotus drivers, who had stopped very early (Laps 26 and 27) for soft tyres and were vulnerable at the end.

In the closing stages, Verstappen was twice asked to let Sainz go by during the final few laps of the race because the Spanish driver was running one lap newer supersoft tyres and felt he could attack Sergio Perez, who was holding up the Toro Rosso pair.

Sainz felt that he should have been allowed the chance to use his tyre advantage to attack Perez and if he could not get past the Mexican he would let Verstappen back through, in a similar manner to what the Red Bull drivers did in the Monaco Grand Prix earlier this year.

Max Verstappen Carlos Sainz

“I saw what Red Bull did in Monaco and said ‘this is the best thing you can do’ – play the team game and let the guy on a newer tyre, that was me, try, at least have one shot,” said Sainz after the race.

“If I can’t [get past Perez], Max finishes P8 and me P9. I just wanted one shot, [but] he never gave it to me. It’s not an issue for me, but sometimes you have to think about the team and not just yourself.”

Sainz added that he had been asked to let Verstappen through on three occasions so far this season and that he had complied each time while Verstappen refused to do the same for him.

He said: “I don’t need to tell him [anything], I’m sure the team is the one who needs to talk with him. I had three times this year that they asked me to let him by [and] I did it three times. The team asked him three times this year to let me by [and] he has never done it yet.”

But Tost defended Verstappen and explained that Sainz was not close enough to his teammate to justify being allowed through to attack Perez.

Franz Tost

Tost said: “The team wanted to swap positions because we thought Carlos was faster with the new tyres, but this was not the case, he could not catch up. He was too far away, so Max said no, and he was right.

“I said over the intercom if Carlos is not close then it makes no sense to swap positions because he would never get Perez as he is too far behind – between three and five tenths behind.

“You have to catch up, and [Sainz] should have shown at first he was capable of overtaking Max before then trying to catch Perez.”

Verstappen felt that his recovery to get back into the points paying positions meant he did not have to let his teammate through.

Max Verstappen

He said: “If you’re one lap down and you manage to be back in the points as the leading Toro Rosso, then for me there is no reason to switch positions.

“With Checo, we couldn’t have got past because his top speed was unbelievable. I made it quite clear I didn’t want to do it, and at the end they told me it was the right decision.”

Both Toro Rosso drivers were running well down the field as they started their final stints. They then both took full advantage of the second safety car bunching the field up and used the supersoft tyres to charge through the rear end of the field and back into the points before they were halted by Perez.

Verstappen’s supersoft tyres were one lap older than Sainz’s and the Spaniard felt he should be given the chance to use that advantage to attack Perez, and if he failed to pass the Force India, he would drop back behind Verstappen in much the same way Daniel Ricciardo did for Daniil Kvyat on the final lap of the Monaco Grand Prix in May.

Carlos Sainz

While Sainz did get close to Verstappen as they both climbed back though the tail end of the field in the closing laps, he was never within 0.3s of the Dutchman at any stage after the final pitstops. After they caught Perez he did not come within 0.4s and that gap led to Verstappen’s refusal to the team’s calls, and Toro Rosso defending his decision after the race.

As well as vying for an opportunity with the main Red Bull team in the next year or two, both drivers are on the radar of other top teams and their competition is proving one of the brighter stories in F1 this season. Sainz currently leads Verstappen 7-6 in qualifying, but Verstappen has 30 points to Sainz’s 11. Sainz has five retirements to Verstappen’s four, although one of those was the Dutchman’s high speed accident in Monaco.


What do you think? Was Verstappen right to refuse the order? Leave your comments below

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268 comments

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1

Totally right call by Max. If he can't get close enough to pass, then it's a no brainer. The guy ahead should not slow down to be passed. Same call as Hamilton last year when Mercedes asked him to let Rosberg through. Fine by me.

2

Sainz was 0,4 s behind saving brakes and tyres.

Sainz's tyres were more than a one lap newer.

What must he do? Put the front wing under his team mate's diffuser?....

Max should say NO. For sure. But Tost is pro Max. And Marko. They have to justify Marko's driver selection.

3

BBC podcast interview with Carlos suggests that Carlos had done this three times for Max this season, so was expecting one in return.

4

BS.. they were on the same strategy and Max was driving faster lap times. For what it is worth, Max did let Carlos pass in Spain because Carlos had the better strategy.

5

That is only half true. Yes he led Max go by a few times but that was bc they were on different strategies. When drivers from the same team are on different strategies, they let their teammates by. In Singapore at that point in the race they were on the same strategy so that's not a good argument at all.

6

Every racer should answer "No!" at least once when asked.T hen a fuller explanation may change the racer's mind - but remember, this is racing.

7

Absolutely disagree. Max is an employee and one of only hundreds in a team.

F1 is a team sport and the drivers are completely reliant on being provided with a fast reliable car that is well managed. It is NOT their personal plaything.

In a F1 race it is ridiculous to expect to fully inform a driver of every nuance of every team decision. Drivers need to follow team direction just like a mechanic, PR person or aero geek etc.

Without a team he is a nobody and he needs to learn that v v quickly.

Personally I give people one warning for that sort of behaviour and then fire them if they repeat it, but I work in places where teams are v important.

Interesting to see how TR handle this in the medium term, but looks like Tost has already caved in.

8

Wrong. The driver is inherently a different animal. They are selfish, aggressive, and dominant. They HAVE to be! Do you think Schumacher, JPM, Senna, Alonso would have given up the spot? How about Vettel? Nope. For God's sake, Alonso passed his own teammate rather forcefully in pit-in in China (I believe it was China)!

Max just showed he is the real deal by standing his ground, being ruthless and the #1 driver in the team. Talent and money aside, this singularity is the one secret ingredient that "yes men" like DC, Massa, Rubens etc. missed. All race winning drivers. How many World Championships? Team bosses may not like the incident but they love knowing that their driver will stop at nothing to win.

9
Torchwood (mobile)

@Dave JC

Good point. Just like the double world champion being told the previous race to do something and not ask questions.

He might not have been happy about it, but he complied.

10

Albeit it's true that F1 participants are joined up in "teams" : I'd argue that F1, or nearly any racing, is _not_ a team sport. The main price at end of the year is driver championship and that's what any team (and driver!) most desires.

Clearly there's secondary prize for constructor that's commercially important, but that there'll be hardly any team who will want to jeopardize a potential driver championship for the constructor title.

11

You have to see from the team point of view, two rookies and a tight race track fighting for a position ? the team wanted to do a safe choice, and the choose to both of them to have an attempt to overtake the force india.

12

Had they clearly communicated that plan to Max, with the assurance that the position would be given back should Sainz fail to overtake the Force India, I reckon he would have done it. From the context though, it appears they simply asked him to swap.

To me, when viewed in context, it makes sense why Max would ignore it, and it would make sense why Tost would defend it.

It does not sound like they communicated this well enough, which is likely why Sainz has said his issue is not with Verstappen, but the team.

What's done is done, and despite the claims by some, I imagine his stock just rose a bit more in the paddock as a result.

13

So he should destroy his SS tires behind his teammate to prove his speed and then be unable to make an attack against the real target?

14

He should have proven that he was faster than Max but Max was consistantly faster during the race. Max drove top 5 times non-stop and when they both passed Grojean, Max drove away from Sainz by 4 secs. So, no, he should not destroy his tires, he should have proven during the race that he can drive faster than Max but he didn't. How would he pass Perez if Max'es times were faster and Max can't even get passed Perez?

15

No, he should have passed Max to prove he had enough speed to pass the real target. Carlos never gave the impression he was able to catch up Max.

16

Max had helemaal gelijk we zijn hier om te racen als je liefdadigheid wilt Carlos Sainz dan ga je naar de Mickey Mouse club misschien hebben ze daar nog een stoeltje voor je!!!

17

@ kees de jongh...really! that is very interesting.

19

Agree with TimW.

This is not the same at all. Rosberg was never giving the position back to Hamilton. Ity is the same as Monaco (redbull) and he should have followed orders.

First year in F1 and he's being congratulated for disobeying the team. Watch this blow up in their face! Vettel set the precedent in the redbull family and this has lead to a lack of respect from the drivers.

20

Why should any driver gift a position to another if that driver has not fought for the position? They call it racing for a reason.

Oh, and get over your Multi-21 [Mod]

21

Verstappen is a good little driver no doubt, but completely over rated as far as I'm concerned.

22

@Steve

"...It was actually Webber who set the precedent for refusing to follow team orders at Red Bull, as far back as 2009..."

So it was Webber who set the precedent for no team orders back in 2009 was it?

And here I was thinking it was the FIA...silly me.

23

Whahahaha you are funny ... [Mod]?

24

If Vettel comes back to the top with Ferrari, you don't want to know where he'll store the lack of respect from the other drivers.

25

It was actually Webber who set the precedent for refusing to follow team orders at Red Bull, as far back as 2009.

26

Not really the same as Nico was a second and a half behind Lewis last year and Carlos was three tenths behind Max. Also Lewis was being asked to let Mico through so he could disappear off up the road, at Singapore Max was only being asked to let Sainz through to have a go at passing Perez, if he didn't make the pass stick then Max would get the position back.

27

Not true. Max was nothing explained, just given the order. They didn't give a reason for that order and they didn't tell at all Carlos would give the position back if he couldn't make it.

28

Jan, we don't hear all the radio traffic, it was reported that this was to be a switch of position to give Carlos a chance to get by Sergio and if he was not successful then the positions would revert to how they were. Red Bull did the same thing in Monaco.

29

So if Carlos didn’t make the pass stick then Max would get the position back? That was not what they told Max: "You need to swap positions" All the rest supposed here has not been communicated. Verstappen might have been smarter to ask: "WHY!?", as Hamilton did in Monza... as Torro Rosso should have been smarter to communicate reason and conditions (the latter also to Carlos: swap back if you are not successful in your attempt to overtake Checo). This way, Torro Rosso just ignited the wrong fuse in a relationship that has had a positive attitude so far. Just very stupid, sorry…

30

Washing no effort?! Stupid autocorrect, should say making obviously...

31

If Nico did get within 6 tenths, then it must have been briefly, for nearly all the time he was sitting behind Lewis he was not in DRS range and washing no effort to close the gap, let alone get past. In Singapore Carlos was clearly trying to overtake And Max was clearly defending.

32

Tim, you heart more than Verstappen and anyone else watching the race. I was told to "let Carlos pass". IF they would have told him (and Carlos) to swap positions again after Carlos' eventual unsuccessful attempt to swap positions again (i.e. "you will get the position back if Carlos can't pass Checo"), it would have been a reasonable request. The short version now presented to Verstappen was just asking for unconditional obedience... why should he? He was (next to Vettel) the star of the show, any reason to shave his head? I am a bit surprised that in our modern society people are actually defending unconditional obedience... that should be a relic of the past.

33

Nope, Verstappen was literally asked "to let Carlos pass". All the fuzz that he'd get his position back if Sainz could not pass Perez is nice in hindsight, but nothing that tells me Verstappen should have followed the order, at least if we accept that blind, execution of unfounded order is a relic of a dark past. The world has changed for the better, I assume.

34

Nico was a second a half behind?!

He got as close asjust under 6tenths

35

Verstappen had every right to refuse the order. Not once did Carlos tried to overtake Max. And as mentioned in the story, Carlos was never within 0.3 seconds of Max at this stage of the race. Carlos should have been all over Max, but he wasn't.

36

We must have watched a different race, in the one I saw Carlos clearly made several moves to take the inside line into corners only for Max to defend the line, as for not being 0.3 behind, the team boss said he was, you say he wasn't....

37

Sander, them both being stuck behind another car (Perez) was the whole point! Are you saying you didn't see Carlos moving to the inside to try and get past Max at all? I saw him do exactly that several times.

38

Maybe you should watch the race again then. Sainz was left seconds behind and only could catch up when Verstappen was stuck behind a car.

39

I'm not saying if Max was right or wrong because we don't really know what pace Sainz had in hand (if any), but the thing is we all know how getting too close to the car in front over heats everything and leads to slipping around and wearing the tyres out...if you're a good teammate, behind your team mate and on a circuit where overtaking is very difficult, it wouldn't make any sense to sit right on his exhaust - especially if you've spoken to the team and they've said he'll let you pass if he can't overtake soon....

so i don't buy that "he wasn't less than 0.3 seconds behind" as reason enough on it's own to disobey the order...

40

Hamilton has done the same I think, get close and I will let you pass.

Its close call between this scenario and the VET/WEB Multi 21 issue a few years ago. I kind of support Max but not not VET in the multi 21 incident.

I beleive in a natural karma and what goes round comes around so one day, maybe not this season, Max will be needing Carlos to get out of the way. Don't be shocked Max if the answer is no.

It adds a bit of spice and proves the drivers can think for themselves so good luck.......

Was it right or wrong ????

Pass me a fence please, I need to sit down....

😉

41

If Lewis in any way had replied to a team request with such a emphatic NO, all hell would have broken out, causing F1 websites worldwide to meltdown. Many of his severe critics calling for Hamilton to be expelled from the sport, and in some extreme cases to be drawn and quartered.

42

Max doesn't need the team to ask Carlos to let him pass he can get the job done himself

43

It's different to Multi 21 in some key areas though. The Red Bull drivers had a clear (but hidden) team orders policy that dated back to 2009 when they started getting a competitive car, whereby after the final round of pitstops and the cars were 1-2 they would hold station until the flag. They had both benefitted from the orders in the past and it was a long standing agreement between all parties. In Malaysia, Red Bull gave Vettel a better strategy (undercut on Webber to protect him from the Mercs who were still a threat at the time, plus giving Webber new harder compound tyres to guarantee he made it to the end) which got him artificially close to Webber. That didn't matter though, because the team knew Webber wouldn't be under any threat and issued the order. Vettel then took it into his own hands mid-race to break that agreement, in the face of benefitting from the orders before (more than Webber). That's before we get into his laughable attempts after the race to pretend he hadn't understood the order, and after issuing perhaps the worlds thinnest apology.

In short - Max good, Vettel bad 🙂

44

@ andrew M ...hahaha, i couldn't agree more with your summary and conclusion. well said.

45

@ Bruno - Vettel relied on "boring team policies to grab a win" plenty of times when it suited him. And saying he was right to do it because he got more points is missing the point entirely, nobody is claiming that it wouldn't have harmed his points tally if he hadn't done it.

@ Rockie - I read articles on a great F1 site called jamesallenonf1.com, they did a good piece about this:

"Webber controlled the race from here. The pair were forced to anticipate their third stops to cover Lewis Hamilton, who was only two seconds behind when he stopped on lap L30. Webber was given priority on Lap 31, with Vettel a lap later.

But having done all of that, at the final stop something very unusual happened; having been given the stop preference throughout the race, coming in a lap earlier than Vettel for the second and third stops, Webber was then disadvantaged at the final stop.

He was brought in a lap later than his team-mate who pitted on Lap 42. Prior to this Webber had enjoyed a 4.2 second lead. However after exiting the pits on new hard tyres on lap 43 he found that Vettel was now 0.5s behind him on the faster new mediums. If Webber had stopped first he would have increased his lead.

So by stopping Vettel first, the team artificially set up the circumstance for what then happened, with Vettel choosing to attack and pass. The money in F1 is all in the constructors’ points, not the drivers’ points, so with 43 points for a 1-2, there was no reason for the team to want any risks to be taken by letting them race; plus racing each other, as they did, damages the tyres."

@ Kenneth - nice to see we can come together for a good cause 🙂

46

I think the key difference between this and multi-21 is that here a driver was being asked to actively surrender his position to his team mate whereas in multi-21 both drivers were simply told to hold position.

However, my view is that drivers should be free to race at all times. They are out there competing as individuals and I want to see real racing on the track. I accept that F1 is a team sport in part and that teams will, on occasion, want to try and manipulate the result or reduce risk. But I would support any driver who refuses to obey unreasonable team instructions.

47

how true.....couldn't agree more. vettel even threatened red bull with a legal letter some days after he apologised?????

48

"Red Bull gave Vettel a better strategy (undercut on Webber to protect him from the Mercs who were still a threat at the time, plus giving Webber new harder compound tyres to guarantee he made it to the end) which got him artificially close to Webber."

What sort of revisionist post is this?

Did you actually watch the race?

49

Vettel had better tyres to finish the race because he drove faster on Saturday. He deserved the win, shame on Webber to try and rely on boring team policies to grab a win, if you call that a win. Also, Vettel had won the 2012 title with a very narrow margin. Good call by Vettel, even better than Max's. End of story

50

Damn right he was!

51

Clearly Verstappen's reasoning was that to let Sainz past would be too big a risk. If CS then overtook Perez when MV could not, it would make MV look less talented than CS.

Also MV would suspect that CS would not let MV back past if he also couldn't pass Perez -- because MV knew that's the way he himself thinks. In psychology this is called 'projection': people always expect other people to behave the same way as they themselves do in a given situation. For example, liars believe everyone else also lies, and honest people tend to think everyone else is honest.

52

don't overthink it. 'Just say no" and if the boss/engineer gives a good enough reason, change to yes. But this is racing. Forward is the direction to go, to think, to plan. Besides, the guy didn't even try to pass.

53

[Mod] Quercus. The only reason CS could come any closer to MV was because MV was stuck behind Perez not because the laptimes of Max were bad. Remember that Max drove the fastest lap time around half the race. His pace was strong, and Sainz never came close. If he could pass Perez, why couldn't he pass Max????

54

I think you ahve a point and it does not shed positive light on Max character( as a person) ...but it certainly gives the impression he has the "killer instinct" everybody says you need to become a champion (as a F1 driver)...

55

Complete [Mod]

Verstappen just was given the order to let him pass. Carlos intentions were never explained to Max. I bet that Max would have let Carlos pass him if he felt he'd get his place back if Carlos would not succeed in passing Bottas.

So your reasoning of "projection" is not applicable at this point. I also heard they swapped places earlier that race which isn't true. They swapped places when Sainz went in for new tires and got hold up by others doing the same.

Max raced him fair and square and if he then 4 laps before the end of the race gets a team order that says: "lert him pass" without any explanation, i totally understand his decision to say NO!
It's about racing, not about giving presents.

So get your facts right and put yourself in his position before you judge.

To my opinion, it is Carlos who is now stirring up the controversy and going public with a story that he is mister nice guy, and that Max was in the wrong... Fact is that Max is turning tables on him and he does not like that.

56

You're talking about facts, but are you sure you have them all yourself? Have you heard the full stream of communications over the STR radio? Just because we only heard that one message and then a short and sharp, "NO!" from Max, doesn't mean there weren't other messages before or after that explained the plan. I'm sure they also discuss these situations in briefings outside of the car too.

That said... I could go either way on it really. On one hand, he's an employee of the team. Even if Sainz had the pace he maybe wasn't necessarily showing it completely. Burning up your tyres to get close enough to make a maybe risky attempt at an overtake on your own team mate which may or may not end nicely might not be the best plan... especially if there are agreements already in place in the team for how to deal with such situations (i.e. how the big RB team did it at Monaco). On the other hand... they'd both had problems in the race, Max had raced his way back up to that position, and yeah, maybe there is no such agreement and nothing was explained to him at the time so he thought it was just for position.

57

@Evert wrote: "Verstappen just was given the order to let him pass. Carlos intentions were never explained to Max."

How do you know that? Have you heard all the team radio? We've never heard a driver being told on his radio to let a team mate past without any additional explanation; have we?

58

Max was fully right to refuse, just as Lewis was against Nico. Eddie Jordan was completely out of order for suggesting that Max was in the wrong and needed to be dealt with like a stroppy child.

59

Don't particularly like EJ, but on this occasion Eddie was bang-on.

60

One could say that by closing the gap to less than .3 seconds first in order to be alowed trough, a driver could hurt the tires he intends to use to overtake the next one ahead.

On the other hand one could also argue that 1 lap younger tires ... is that difference enough to make or break an overtake on the next one ahead ...

I think Max made the right call. Carlos would not have managed the overtake I feel. Thus only difference would be there for us fans watching 2 blokes make silly manouvers on track to no avail.

61

Sainz said he has let Verstappen by 3-4 times in previous races.

62

30 points vs 11. Nuff said.

63

i agree just points don't tell the complete story. but fastest laptimes do a better job. 61 laps. pick the best lap and compare.

4 Max Verstappen Toro Rosso-Renault 1’50.298 0.257 43

6 Carlos Sainz Jnr Toro Rosso-Renault 1’50.401 0.360 43

64

Lol any F1 fan that knows a little about F1 knows that the points don't always tell the true story

65

Yeah right. He says ... well if true ... what was I watching those sundays?

66

Ummm. Don't want to rain on your parade but. Are you forgetting max dnf in the points at melbourne and China because of engine trouble? Frans Tost recons p6 was lost ij melbourne and a p8 in China so that would make it 8 pionts meldbourne and 4 in china? In total 42-11.

67

Of course he will say such things, but he didn't. Sainz with more experiance is beaten by a newbie and not just any newbie but a 17 year old without experiance and a heavy right foot.

Rubbish with a capitol "R"

68

Sainz is doing just as good a job as Verstappen, but the media only care about Max. Sainz broke down in the points 4 races in a row.

How does Sainz have more experience driving these cars btw??!

69

I actually remember he did let him by once, just can't remember which race it was

70

Was it clearly explained to Max that Carlos promised to let him back thru if he couldn't make the pass ? We certainly didn't hear that on the TV. Surely it makes all the difference.

71

That's something that the team and drivers probably talk before races.... Let's say "If you're able to overtake the car in front, and your tem mate is right behind, then let him try, and if he's not able to overtake, you have to switch back positions".

72

I was wondering the same thing, but the radio we hear during the race is extremely limited. Best bet is to find and have a read of the full radio transcript - That should tell you the whole story.

73

Whilst Sainz drove well -the way he overtook Grosjean was amazing-, he never got close enough to Max to warrant a place swap. Agreed.

But the way he said "no!" over the radio sounded that he wouldn't have done so even if Carlos was within the 0.4 sec gap... so much for intra-team comradery.

74

The way CS overtook Grosjean and some others was like rally driving, he pushed them off the track. Look at Mx'style, that's how to overtake

75

Racers don't swop places.

76

I agree. He made the right call, but the way he expressed it on the radio made him sound like a petulant child. If he explained that his teammate was not close enough and that he would lose time slowing down to let him by it wouldn't even be discussed. Chalk it up to inexperience in communications. HAM handled it the right way and the next call on the radio I believe was to ROS telling him to close up the gap if he wanted to be let through,

Silly call overall. How much of a difference does a one lap tire advantage create anyway?

77

Plenty of time for explaining while battling Perez..

78

He was battling with Perez at high speed, "No" was probably all he had time for.

79

Absolutely - Sainz should have to work for his position (If he had passed Perez he would of had a bigger points haul over his team mate). MV came from a lap down to score points on a track that is pretty tricky to overtake on (granted 2 safety cars and multiple retirements) it was a great drive and we need more ballsy drivers in the sport like MV

80

Max was able to unlap himself thanks to the first safety car, while Carlos was at the back of the pack after the second one due to a power failure. carlos had an overalls more difficult race and still almost finished ahead of his teammate.

81

That is plain untrue. Verstappen was down by almost 2 laps. Sainz'es car only stalled for 5 secs. There is no way that Sainz had a harder race than Verstappen. After the first SC, Verstappen was still 15 to 20 secs behind the last car when they started racing again. They did not wait for him to catch up. No I would say verstappen's race was definitely more of a challenge than the 5 secs that Sainz couldn't find gears. Verstappen was simply faster during the entire race including qualification and free practice. He did an outstanding job. Sky Sports rewarded his race with a 9 out of 10 to give you an example.

82

Not really, VES had way better race pace, was lapping as fast as the top 6 (and had even towards the end the fastest lap for 9 laps or so). Also, after unlapping himself he still was 13 seconds behind the Manors but because of his great pace he passed them all.Also at no point was SAI able to match VES speed, he only got close when VES was stuck behind a car, you can clearly see VES pulling away several times

83

Sainz also had issues that put him towards the back. I think Max's thought in the car was classic race-driver ego "I came from a lap down, I deserved it..." without any thought for issues that others may have been suffering from.

But an SC so early clearly helped to un-lap himself and get caught up to the back of the field. To paraphrase something Clinton said of Bush Jr back in 2000 - "he's a guy who was born on 3rd base but thinks he hit a triple". It certainly wasn't Max's wonderful driving that got him back on the same lap as the leaders, and it certainly helped that a lot of other cars retired.

84

That is not entirely true BMC. Yes the SC helped him unlap himself but he was still way behind the last car (a Manor). The SC did not wait till Max was all the way at the back of the field, when they opened it back up for racing Max was still 15 to 20 secs behind the Manor. He made that up all by himself. By driving consistantly top 5 and top 6 times. He even had the fastest lap for a while. The 2nd SC didn't really help him. In fact he pitted right before the safety car came back on the 2nd time while Sainz pitted during the SC which was of course an advantage.

85

Brilliant comment! Perfect for Maxs situation! Born on 3rd base and thinks hes hit a treble! Perfect!

86

an interesting situation and one which is not easily solved. if team orders are to be implemented successfully then that needs to be a contractual obligation then there can be no argument. it is a condition of employment. if there is no pre race agreement then team orders are very much a dodgy issue for all concerned. as we have seen with the infamous red bull [multi 21]decision where vettel refused to honour a pre race strategy. he then agreed that he had failed to honour his part by apologising but one week later threatened the team with a legal challenge to the team's orders!!!!

in monaco a version of team orders was introduced by red bull which, prima facie, appeared to work out but was predicated on both drivers acting honourably. something that is extremely rare in F1 given the high stakes involved.

this latest issue is all rather pathetic when it is is summarised. the pit wall strategists tried to do something but their team principal has ruled against them? where was he when the calls were made? we are really discussing a principle here, i believe, irrespective of the actual race. in summary then, it is up to the individuals to come to an agreement and stick to it otherwise there will be major dissension and that is never good for team harmony. on a more personal note, i don't like team orders at all.

87

Very well articulated.

The bit about the team principal overruling the strategist is a good catch! I wonder how that went down within the team...

88

Well, Multi-21 was a wrong call from its onset by the team.

They were clearly wrong in asking a driver on faster and fresher tyres to give up a victory just because tyres were a bit of unknown entity at that time. They should have let the drivers decide if it was ok to push those tyres to the limit rather than making the call from the pit wall.Team actually let both the drivers down with that call.

These days I see many people applauding drivers defying orders by the team ( Hamilton and more recently Verstappen) and the teams saving its face by stating drivers made the right call.

Talk about changing times.

89

Let's get rid of pit-car radio and then we'd have none of this rubbish

90

You're both still asserting your support for SV's actions, even with all the facts and the fullness of time, and after SV admitted he did the wrong thing!

M21 is not even relevant to this discussion, the circumstances are completely different. You also neglect to mention that they were told to turn their engines down as well!

91

"Team actually let both the drivers down with that call."

True. WRC fans, please note this also applies to the Loeb-Ogier gate in 2011.

92

People pretty much invariably applaud drivers for ignoring team orders, as long as the driver ignoring them is not named Vettel .. in which case we get loads of nonsense of the "You have to do what your employer tells you" sort.

93

Right on the limit, but I voted yes. If Sainz had done the same thing back to him at any point I would have voted no, but as far as I know he never has. Having said that Max has set his stall out now, he can't expect similar service from Carlos in the future (or anyone else for that matter...).

It's an intriguing battle between the two, and I feel a bit sorry for Sainz - in most other seasons he'd be rookie of the year but he's just being shaded by Max in terms of x-factor, and that's really hurting him. If a promotion to the main Red Bull squad comes up for whatever reason in the near future there only looks like one candidate...

94

Absolutely!

He's the next Sebastian Vettel.

95

oh come on, he's not that bad

96

Well, he belongs to a team. The team gives an order, you follow the order.

If kid thinks Carlos is unable to it because of the high speed, then nothing to lose, let the guy have a go HOWEVER, if Carlos manages to do it, it look like bad on him.

Either case, guilty as charge. Selfish and not a true team player I am afraid.

Very matured Carlos on the interviews.

What goes around comes around.

97

"Well, he belongs to a team. The team gives an order, you follow the order."

I agree. He is also a driver, in a cut-throat sport with a career on the line, where you do what you must to excel and maintain your value. So there is a balance between looking out for yourself and looking out for the team.

I do believe he did the correct thing in the context of this situation (as do most of the readers here, by quite a large margin according to the poll). Yep, he ignored a team order. But he also showed that besides his raw talent, he also has the selfish attitude necessary to go to the top.

And anyone who feels that a racing driver is not, and should not be selfish is only fooling themselves.

This is not a sport of courtesy.

98

If this situation was happening somewhere at 50% race distance then it would have made sense.....IF Sainz tires were really that much younger. 1 lap newer tires is not that much.

But at 98% race distance, and 1 lap younger tire... if Sainz were ahead he would sustain his attack on Perez just for not having to give back the position.

When Toszt was interviewed on Sky he made it sound that Carlos threw in this swapping idea and the team went along requesting Max.

Shows the different personalities: Max is only thinking max attack and speed, while Carlos has the potential to be a bit political?

99

Agreed. Max Verstappen (look at the laptimes during the race between max and Carlos) was 2 - 3 seconds a lap faster then Sainz during his first two stints. Verstappen matched Vettels laptimes whilst Sainz matched Alonsos.

Verstappen had the edge over Sainz all weekend, he had more pace and the 1 lap fresher tire didnt make Sainz the faster man. Is there really anyone who can tell me with dry-eyes that Sainz would have passed Perez? No way Jose! Max had the best chance and therefore I think Max was in the right to keep trying it to the end.

Furthermore Max was overtaking a lot more cleanly than Sainz during this race. Sainz was sloppy on Maldonado and went off track on Grosjean. As said before, everything went in the direction that Max just had the better chance to pull the move off.

100

"No way Jose"?

I think it's "No way Sergio"!

101

If Tost and TR let this kid get away with this they will have no control over what he does in future. This is a team it does not belong to Max.

102

Toro Roso understands how lucky they are to have a signing like Max Verstappen. The kid made the right call even in the heat of battle. What the team really wants is for Max to stay for a few more years, because there is a serious chance of him being poached by a better team in the near future. If anything, the team should publicly apologize to Max for disrupting his concentration with the call, potentially foiling his passing attempt in the last few laps.

103

Absolutely agree.

Whatever the reasons, right or wrong, Max should have obeyed the boss. This is his first year in F1 and many were skeptical about a driver so young participating at this level. He has shown he is fast and a pretty decent driver overall but this episode certainly lets him down. Toro Rosso is a junior development team where young drivers learn the finer points of F1 racing in a reasonably competitive car. To learn you have to listen. Sometimes you will agree, other times not. At the end of the day it is not up to a 16 year old to refuse an order by the team management. I understand there is precedence in other teams but it should not happen here. Vettel, Webber, Hamilton et al have done it but look at the amount of experience and world titles they (not Webber) have between them.

I would have given Max the next week off and told him to think about it from his lounge room.

I am not anti-Max, in fact I am pro-young drivers in the sport.

104

Go max ! No need to start your career as a number two driver. Max would have lost a place and points. Plenty more races to go for toro rosso to get more. Coulthard can't speak. He lost a chance of a championship by letting hakkinen past. Never recovered.

105

Max Verstappen did the right thing. After him and Sainz both passed Grojean, Verstappen drove 4 secs away from Sainz. It was bc Verstappen was held up by Perez that Sainz could catch up. What let them to believe that Sainz would go faster than Verstappen? Nonsense. It was too bad for Verstappen bc his epic comeback race is now overshadowed by that rather nonsensical teamorder.

106

Epic comeback aided by not one but two safety cars and several retirements. Maybe we have a different view on what's epic.

Schumacher in Brazil 2006? Stuff of legend. Max in Singapore 2015? Loads of luck and petulance.

107

Second Safety car didnt really help him, he was on that strategy already boxing just prior to the SC. Now the rest of the field could make a stop as well. Also, matching the pace of Vettel for most of the race, not epic enough?

After the first safety car behind Stevens over 35seconds, closing the gap to Sainz, Alonso Button Nasr Ericsson etc by over 2 seconds a lap? After SAinz switched to SS Max was able to match Sainz's laptimes whilst being on 15 laps old softs, not epic enough? Overtake on Maldonado right before entering the tunnel, not epic enough?

Well everyone their opinion, I think mine is probably biased, but [Mod]. This was MAx's strongest race of the year, by a mile.

108

The interesting question is: when are you close enough? 0.3s isn't much. Do you have to make genuine overtaking attempt?

109

Yes he should be close enough to make an attemt showing he's clearly faster. This was utter [Mod] and Sainz is just being a little child throwing his toys out of the pram at the moment

110

If they have a policy like that mentioned in place, then Max should respect that. He could be the one to benefit next time, although obviously that wont happen now. I thought Tost's comments were a bit strange, he said Carlos was not close enough as he was 'only' 3 tenths behind Max. How much closer would he have liked Carlos to be?! If the team boss didn't think it was correct to ask Max to move over then why was the order repeatedly given?

111

I think what Tost meant was that just before MV started being held up by Perez, CS was 4 secs behind MV and it was only because of Perez's superior top speed preventing MV from passing him, that allowed CS to catch them both up.

In clean air MV was faster than CS and it was right to not agree to let him pass.

It is constantly stated that the 'team' asked MV to allow CS to pass, but the team don't all speak together at the same time so exactly who was it that made the wrong call?

112

TimW

I agree with you.

Thing is Carlos has obeyed Team orders & let Max pass without any hestation 3 times already this season. For the first time the roll was reversed & Max slammed the door shut . Which Tost should have thrown the book at him titled "FOLLOW ORDERS OR ELSE!!".

This is different from the Lewis & Nico situation. Lewis was on the baokfoot a Bag Load of car problems throughout the season,had left him way behind on points...so he stated "if he catches up he can pass me but if he doesn't then I'm holding station!" as he had alot to loose if he let Rosberg through.

Young Sprites like Max & a chilled Carlos is on the other spectrum. Which reminds me more of the Multi 2-1 situation with Webber & The Finger Pointer.

Max should have let Carlos pass . But Max had alot of "SHELLFISH " (Selfish) for lunch so it was totally "I want all the cake all the time & you don't exist Carlos".

Reckon Carlos will be doing the same from now on.

Max is being groomed into "The Finger Pointer Mk2" at Red Bull & Carlos will become the next Webber unless he snaps back & sticks his elbows out on track. So I expect both of them ending up take one another out on circuit, unless Tost has a "Clear the Airways" chat with both drivers.

The factor is whether the owners of Red Bull want to favour Max 100% & leave Carlos in the widerness as a foil for Max to play around with.

113

Watch the interview Sainz did with Lee Mckinzee & then with Suzy & Coultard.

Sainz said he moved over to let Max pass3 times this season.

He said it . So chill Max & Vettel fans .

Watch end of race interviews on BBC iplayer or BBC Inside F1 .

114

AxelC, I 'm sorry I didn't understand a lot of your comment but clearly you are trying to compare Hungary last year with this incident, they are not the same at all. Lewis was being asked to slow down enough to let his team mate through who was around 1.5 seconds behind. Lewis did not refuse to let Nico by, he refused to trash his own race to do it, he said clearly on the radio that if Nico got alongside he would let him through, but Nico made no effort to do this.

115

Keep to the facts. Sainz did not let Verstappen pass three times (volunteraly)

116

I thought i'd seen all races this year, but i obviously missed some... Could you tell me where Carlos let Max pass without any hestation 3 times? Definitely not Australia, China, Bahrain, Canada, Austria, England, Belgium and Italy. In Malaysia Max passed Carlos but that was a real overtake. In Monaco Max was coming through with vettel, does that count? In Hungary an early pit stop doesn't count to me as a 'Let pass'. In Spain it was Max who let Carlos pass... So which am i missing?

117

Please point put these 3 occasions, when Sainz allegedly let Verstappen pass him. This simply is not true, and very, very debatable. Only Malaysia and Monaco come to mind, while Verstappen did this in Spain. However on all occasions it could also be considered overtakes by the other party, and the situation was also completely different as the one was on older tyres and the other on fresh ones, while they also happened at much earlier stages in the race.

On a general note his dad has on multiple occasions has said that when he races Max is an absolute winner and [Mod], off track it is a different matter. I think people should take note of that. As statements as "childish" and "selfish" are being thrown around too easily and aimed at his general personality.

118

Yeah, if you are Hamilton and disobey an order you are a legend, not you are just a bad selfish teammate and finger pointer. At the end how bad has that become to the finger pointer as you said? He won that WDC and in Monaco everybody that booed him in that same race a couple of years ago now cheered him and booed the guy of Mercedes (not Hamilton, the guy who received the price for the team)

119

or else what? Alguersuari's return? Scott Speed a few weeks before Austin maybe?

120

torro rosso pays verstappens wage, he should do as they ask, after all he is an employee. Do we refuse a request from our employers?

121

Frequently 🙂

122

So what you are saying ... engineers and teambosses are always right and the drivers should just bow and do what they are told ? Dont think so.

123

Quote: "Do we refuse a request from our employers?" Yes we do, some of us have backbones.

124

Seeing as we have now legitimised 'team orders' it's his job to follow the explicit instructions of his management, Carlos has moved over for this obnoxious guy several times before now in 'the interests of the team', so nope, he needs a kick [Mod].

125

[Mod]

Don't worry, mine isn't either, as I am Dutch and a fan. However, I think Max probably should have moved over. However, when he didn't, I couldn't stop myself from thinking "HELL YEAH!". We need more drivers with guts and fewer media puppets.

Moving over sounds like something Nico Rosberg would do. I have nothing against Nico, but I doubt he will ever be a world champion.

126

I wonder how may here supporting Verstappen's refusal to follow orders were loudly castigating Vettel for doing the same thing in Malaysia.

127

Orders have no place on the track at all, This is racing and if one wants a position one needs to fight for it. If you need team orders to get passed your teammate you are already showing your pure weakness right there!

128

Who wouldn't hate somebody that dusted their favourite driver four years in a row... That is people, that means almost everybody.

129

I hate every lap led by Vettel. Though he was totally right in Malaysia 2 years ago, even more than Max was yesterday actually because Webber had noone to try to overtake in front of Vettel.

130

Many! But since when have fans of any sport been objective?

131

The team was wrong to give orders without analysing the situation properly. Max will not get any favours from Carlos in the future.

Jos should keep his distance instead of poking his nose too much into his son's affairs. This will not be good for Max in the future.

132

On TV they said Jos Verstappen was not at this race ?

133

Jos was present.

134

Where hv you see Carlos giving Max favours this year? Do you really expect a racer like Max V. to count on favours?

Concerning the relation ship between father and son; welll first look at a couple of you tube vids before saying anything like this. If it was not for this father son relation ship he would not be there where he is today. THere's a great respect between the two; which actually only enhances his performance.

135

Did I hear Anthony Hamilton II?

136

First it was multi-21 and now this. The Red Bull/Toro Rosso management convey an image of ineffectiveness. Drivers openly overriding team decisions that are broadcast LIVE. If drivers were allowed to debate the call, then speak in "code". To openly disobey a team order reflects very poorly on both driver and team. I don't think one would have seen a driver refuse a team order issued by Ron Dennis, Patrick Head and Ross Brawn when they were actively engaged on the pit wall.

Joe

Toronto.

137

¿Patrick Head? Remember Jones-Reut

138

The three you mentioned would never have issues this order in these circumstances ....

139

" If drivers were allowed to debate the call, then speak in “code”."

"Multi-21" was code.

140

True, but it you recall, both his engineer and Christian Horner came over the radio telling Seb to give way. the point is - driver's are disobeying their bosses.

141

It was wrong, but I'm on Max's side on this one, because a potential future world champion shouldn't be a pushover. The defiant "no" was great to hear. Of course, the team will have dealt with him inside closed doors afterwards. Young Max should just not ignore discipline and conformity as an employee. On-track, heat-of-the-moment reaction is different. It's a learning experience for young Max and Torro Rosso's internal matter.

142

It doesn’t really matter what he thought - the team gave him an order and he disobeyed it.

He’s made the team management look weak and he was working for me there would be a very serious chat about it and some sort of reprimand.

One expects racing drivers to be selfish and egotistical if fighting for a top spot in a race or championship but he wasn’t doing either so the team comes first.

143

What is not beeing mentioned is the following:

F1 Racing is NOT a team sport, by any means!

Yes,there are teams but at the end of the seasn, there is only one driver you will be compared to and that is your team mate.

So, drivers and team-bosses have different interests. For a team boss, the constructor's championship is much more important then the drivers championship.

For Max, everything seems to go into his direction the last 4 or 5 races. Not only because Carlos retired but also because he is getting the edge on him. Watch the races, fastest laps, qualifying...

There are no transcripts that say Max was explained why he had to swap and there are no transcripts where thay explanation is given so i assume that he was not given an explanation, confirmed by verstappen himself. "You need to let Carlos pass", "just do it Max" is all we heard.

Based on those messages, he would be no champion material if he obeyed that order.

144

"He’s made the team management look weak "

And that's exactly the point. The team was weak at this point. What I don't understand, it wasnt even Max's own race engineer that made the call. But "someone else"

What's that about, really would like to know how that went doen on the pit wall. And second or third call was "Max do it now PLEAE?" tssss. If he really had to swap places and he would I would have expected Franz Tost himself making a radio call to Max. I bet that would have conviced him to swap places.

So yes, Max was right to call out a NO. But whatever happened on that pit wall???

145

I don't think Max made the tema management look weak. they made themselves look weak. They lightly favored Max a few times so they decided to now favor Carlos a bit.

146

The team made a mistake though, Max already knew they were making a mistake, therefore, the blame is on Torro Rosso, not Max, now isn't it?

147

Not at all - the team pay him - the team give him the chance to race - the team are his life line.

If they give him an order he should obey it.

Max had no idea that the team was making a mistake - he was just worried that Carlos would get through and he would look bad so he refused. There was nothing wrong with the teams request if the position would have been given back if Carlos could not make the pass - Max just didn't want to give him the opportunity to make him look bad.

Try that at work tomorrow and see how it goes for you. I hire people - if you did it to me you'd be out.

148

That's it, Rogier. Management is not bigger than the team to me, Peter.

149

I don't think it was the right call to ask Verstappen to let Sainz past, but he was told, so he should have complied.

150

I think Verstappen was right. If you think you're quicker than your teammate you have to pass him in a clean way. If you can't or if you haven't got the guts then it's wise to keep the lips sealed

151

I think Max was right to ignore the call from the pit wall. Carlos' racepace was worse pretty much the entire race. Since Max didn't come close to passing Perez, I think its fair to say Carlos wouldn't have passed Perez as well. As for those who say that you should always follow orders from your employer: this is a cultural issue, I think. I always hear people from Anglo-Saxon countries saying that, but in continental Europe the [Mod] principle is somewhat tainted.

152

Its a team sport.

When the Coach says "take one for the team" you do it.

Period.

153

There are drivers who will always do whatever the team asks, they are faithful, obedient plowhorses. They make good No.2 drivers. Then there are the wild stallions, rebellious, spirited, and sometimes difficult to handle. These are the ones the team owners salivate over. Whatever their abilities, Max is winning the war of wills within the team. Carlos is looking more, and more like a victim, while Max is looking like a gladiator.

154

F1 is NOT a teamsport.

Whoever thinks that is making a fundamental mistake. When you race F1, your main goal in season is to beat your team-mate, not to give him presents.

156

If team orders can be so easily disobeyed tahn we should stop calling them team orders but rather team suggested tactical moves

The opinion of that order being a good idea or a bad idea should be irrelevant .

Imagine for a few seconds it was ALO refusing BUT to have a go at Perez...we would have a flood of ALO "not fans" explaining he is a destroyer of teams and a selfish evil baby eater

157

Max seems to have the same pedigree as Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Senna and other great drivers. That is what makes them apart from other drivers.

Let's see how he is gonna be doing in 3-4 seasons.

158

Team orders are exactly that, ORDERS. Max should have followed what his team instructed.

The bigger issue I have here is Torro Rosso's handling after the race, in much the same way Toto Wolff etc defended Hamilton for doing the same thing in Hungary last year. It is very poor to hear a team principle say that one of their drivers was right to ignore and defy the orders of their own pit wall. In a 'normal' job, you wouldn't get a senior manager undermining the authority of a line manager by saying an employee was right to defy them (unless what was bein asked was illegal etc). Likewise, you wouldn't hear praise from a football club owner for a player to ignore the orders given by the manager.

This answering back and refusal to do things by the drivers is highly unprofessional and undermines the authority of the pitwall, team principles should not congratulate their defiance by saying to the media they were right to ignore team orders.

This is not the first time Max has shown his age and appeared immature - it is unlikely to be the last.

159

@Chris: Please never start a company in the Netherlands because you would not last a year with those archaical ideas...

It is not the army, f1 team owners want their drivers to think, because it will win them races.

160

Huh? Totally disagree.

And when where those other times he appeared immature?

Up untill the last lap in Singapore he has shown his amazing mature racingskills many times.

And don't get started about Monaco. He explained clearly that he didn't even wanted to overtake Grosjean at that moment.

161

What does age have to do with this. Easy to blame someone and his age for this one. Is that the best you can come up with? When it was Ham > Ros was that also the immaturity of a 28 year old? Or Vet > Web, also immature? I think we are dealing with a championship winning mentality here.

162

Max Verstappen WDC! Hahaha.

A long way to go yet. Maybe after potty training.

163

Are you YES voters kidding me? When your employer says 'jump', you really should be saying 'how high'. This young man was disrespectful, plain and simple. Daniel showed how it should be done at Monaco, by demonstrating the confidence to try and yet have the grace to yield after being unsuccessful. Such behaviour fosters a team that really WANTS to support you .. It doesn't take much to extrapolate how Max's side of the garage could be affected by this refusal.

164

no, when you employer says jump, you say "why" or "no!" (if it doesn't make sense)

Besides, if they are not happy with Max then they can let him go, right? Horner wants him (and probably Ferrari and Mercedes as well)

165

I'm with you.

"How High"?

"How Far"?

"Which Wall"?

166

There are some cultural differences here.. I worked in the US and in the Netherlands, and indeed in the US emplyees generally say ‘how high’ when there employer says ‘jump’. In the Netherlands all employees without exception will say something like 'Why', or 'Though luck', or simply 'No'. As Max did.

167

This is a free world. Everyone has got their rights.its not the 1800s anymore. If toro rosso don't like it, see how many teams will want to sign up max

168

""It doesn’t take much to extrapolate how Max’s side of the garage could be affected by this refusal. ""

Well i can tell you: cheering; happy for having the chance to see such a racer develop himself and full of respect for standing up for himself.

169

Perhaps a stupid question, but are you being ironic?

170

When your boss says "jump off a cliff" you just go and take one for the team? Or is it influenced by how righteous the call is?

171

I made a comment on another post but I really think this is really bad for Toro Rosso, at this point it's now clear that Max's dad is running the team. Max will only listen to him and not the team itself. Max and his dad both think they are better than toro Rosso (he's a great driver, no question) and are just waiting for a seat to open up higher up and STR means nothing. I kind of saw this coming with his dad and had a feeling this would happen at some point. Regardless of the order wrong he outright refused without hesitation, he didn't evaluate the situation as it's being said now, he had no intention immediately of doing it. I think if he had just as for clarification it would have made the situation better.

172

You say the same about Kimi?

The radio is broke I can not hear you?

Leave me alone I know what I am doing?

What you saw was a display of character by MAX. And an example of poor justiment of the team. Who says a driver has to follow teamorders no matter what? After the race you can analize which decision was wrong or right. In this case MAX was right.

173

judgement ????

174

Chris, perhaps you should try and be more objective in your reactions, as you definitely appear to be [Mod] for whatever reason. It is your good right, but please do understand that statements such as "it is clear that his dad is running the team," or statements about Max's age, only make you look silly. These two matters have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, so perhaps we can refrain from such fallacies.

175

One interesting point that I've not heard anyone mention is that (at least in the radio communication that I heard on the TV broadcast) Max was asked to let Sainz past, but was not told why he was being asked to do so. If it had been explained to him that Sainz would give the place back if he were unable to pass, he might have been more willing to do so. That said, Verstappen's tires were only 1 lap older, so in my personal opinion, Sainz probably didn't have enough of a "greater" chance of overtaking to warrant the order.

176

"If it had been explained to him that Sainz would give the place back if he were unable to pass, he might have been more willing to do so."

I think you are right. But [Mod] is so lazy nowadays.

177

Certainly Max was right to do as he did. It's what Jos told him to do. Always do as your dad tells you, kids!

178

Max is someone I find to be talented and potential WDC in future but not very likeable. His petulance in this instance will not help his popularity among fans like me. Hopefully with time Max will mature a bit and learn F1 is a team game.

179

I think most fans love the fact that he is 100% comitted to be World champion one day.. i think most people love him for the style he's showing on the track.. You obviously have no idea who the guy is and draw conclusions on a few things you have seen..

You shouldn't confuse total commitment with arrogance or immaturatiy. He is wise beyond his years and made this call because in his mind it was the only option. Becoming the guy that simply does as he is told has NEVER made anyone World Champion.

180

Question...is `F1 really a team game?

Many people believe that the first driver you have to beat is your teammate right?

So there will always be a battle inside a 'team'.

Do you really think Nico is happy when Hamilton wins the WDC or even a single race??

I don't think so.

Will he be seen as a winner too? when Hamilton becomes WDC? No he will be (seen as) the biggest loser. So where's the team in that.

Can you refer to the word team when individual awards are at stake?

181

At the end of the day he is an employee and his boss told him to do something. He refused. In any other form of employment he would be sacked for gross misconduct!

182

Now that's just it Richard... It is NOT any other form of employement, it is F1 racing. With iTS OWN rules and huge ego's and stakes and teams etc etc.... NO one knows how Max is as a person, don't pretend you know anyone by just watching him perform.... Furthermore it is debatable what Max did, it LOOKS like he made right call, but we all can't know now can we? It is a team issue and they should sort it out behind closed doors... But hey, like I said, it's F1, so everyone wants to have a truth monopoly here.... Let these youngsters drive, they Will sort things out themselves eventually, they are Both very talented good new drivers... Let us enjoy that rather than bashing one or the other....

183

Hilarious, you're going to sack the best new talent in F1 in years? [Mod]

Yes you can expect an employee to do as told, but in this case the order was completely ridiculous and should never have been given.

On top of that, this kid is going to earn them many millions and that remains to be seen when it comes to Carlos Sainz (even though i personally thinks he is a great talent and does a great job too) as he is performing in the shadow of Max.. Sad for Carlos as in any other team he'd probably be whooping his teammate's ass thoroughly and consistantly.

184

Thank goodness, someone who see's the light. If my boss told me to do something and I gave him an angry no, I would be jobless in a blink of an eye.

Maybe he should be given that experience.

185

Welcome back Rubens or is your name Felipe?

186

I don't know, but if I were boss, and one of my employees would complain to the press about how I am favouring the other employee (who, btw, produces more), and that life isn't fair working for me, would that also not be a reason, as the boss, to be slightly disappointed?

My point is, I think your boss / employee analogy breaks down on various levels when it comes down to the F1 circus.

But in any case, looking at all your previous posts, you're just angry at Max for some reason. Can't tell why. Usually these things have to do with rooting too emotionally for one guy or team over its main rival, so I presume it must be your love for Sainz.

187

Sacked, alright. Then replaced by Bourdais or Alguersuari?

188

Why? Has the Red Bull stable already run out of up and coming drivers?

189

My first reaction to his refusal to obey was, he is but a member of the team and should follow what he is instructed to do. I am still convinced that he was in the wrong in flatly refusing, but I can't see what prompted the team to ask him to do so. I hope he got a bit of a talking to at the least as, rightly or not, he embarrassed his team. I, as a F1 fan, am happy that Max was let in at his young age, he has made a few mistakes but overall, one has to say he is an exciting racer.

I get that there is much hype around him. Very much like for Lewis in 2007. Lewis of course met all expectation talent wise and probably finished higher in the WDC, than thought likely. How would a Max perform in this year's Mercedes (not the Singapore one ok) ? I would not be surprised if he took a win or two or more. Pure speculation of course. Vettel was not heralded to that level prior to actually being seen at the wheel. Did not stop him from shinning that is for sure. Marc

190

The real story is that max and his dad had already discussed this situation at great length and agreed on a strategy to disobey the order and argue about it later.

All drivers and their management teams will have gone through every imaginable scenario and arrived at a protocol to follow under such circumstances. Seb did not come up with his response to multi 21 off the cuff, that was a decision he had already made and was within his legal rights to do so.

In maxs case, we can assume he was going to say no with no regard to Carlos actual performance, in this case max turned out to be right, but if Carlos was all over his gearbox you can imagine he'd say the same and we'd be having a much different conversation.

For now I'll side with the kid. I think both TR drivers have a bright future in f1 but max has super star written all over him.

191

Max is great but he has spoilt kid written all over him right now !!

192

Can you name an F1 driver from the last 10 years that wasnt a spoiled kid?

193

Carlos mentioned that he had let Max past for 3-4 occasions? What were those occasions and under which circumstances was that? Does anyone have the information? Comparing them might give the perspective if Max should have reciprocated the same and allowed Carlos to pass him.

194

He let Verstappen by 2 or 3 times before because they were on different strategies. It is common in F1 to let teammates by if they are on a different strategy. Now they were on the same strategy. It had never happened before that they were on the same strategy and Carlos let Max pass. So what Carlos was saying was comparing apples and oranges. Max was right to not let him by.

195

I see no one commenting about how Perez held up the 1.5s faster STR hehe Grosjean who is aiming for a 2017 Ferrari drive was passed really easy.

196

How does this star system work? Is the gold star the one which signifies a star or the other way round? At the moment it seems that everyone is being very negative about the coments if the gold star is the important one

197

Are Red Bull/Toro Rosso right to give arguable team orders now and again? Were FIA right to remove the ban on team orders?

198

We never Know.

199

James

I am fairly sure that Sainz was on 'new' super soft tyres, presumably as a result of his Qualifying incident.

If I am correct in this it would have been a factor in the STR request. They, presumably, were anticipating him attacking competitors in the latter stages of the race. Unfortunately Max was in the way.

Tost presumably will deal with this behind closed doors.

200

After their last pit stop they both passed Grosjean and then with his 1 lap older and not new tyres MV left behind CS and was 4 secs in front of him by the time MV

201

After their last pit stop they both passed Grosjean and then with his 1 lap older and not new tyres MV left behind CS and was 4 secs in front of him by the time MV came up to SP whose car's top speed prevented MV from overtaking.

That was how CS was allowed to catch MV up.

The plan facts are that in clean air with lesser tyres MV pulled 4secs ahead of CS.

The team Boss was correct when he said MV made the rigt call, and as TEAM PRINCIPAL YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HIM !

Vettel and Verstappen were the stars of the show and this micro discecting of all that occurred is nonsense .

No-one has said yet who actually gave the give way call to MV - maybe it was CS's engineer ? :>)

202

Was Verstappen right to refuse a team order? No, I believe in principle a driver should always adhere to a team order.

From what we know, did the team give Max a clear reason? No, the only thing we heard on the radio was their question if he could let Carlos go by.

Should a driver expect to get a reason behind a team order? Yes, when we talk about professional sports, this would be a no brainer, and I find it very strange that we did not hear that with the same radio message (or they didn't let us hear all of it).

Was Carlos driving faster than Max at that very moment? No, during the whole race, Max his pace was way better than that of Carlos. The only reason why Carlos was so close behind Max at the time they were chasing Perez, was that Max was held up behind Perez.

Do I understand why Max reacted frustrated by his team's call when taking the above points into account? Absolutely yes, I believe that when I would be in the same situation, being a lap down to the whole field from start, driving your holy [Mod] off the entire race to get atleast something out of it, being part of the drivers with the fastest laps during the whole race, I would react in the very same way. NO!

In addition, everything that Carlos stated after the race, about wanting to have a chance, about giving Max his place back when he would not manage to get by Perez, sounds a bit cheap to me. I mean, ain't it easy to play Holy Maria after this would have happened to make sure you look unguilty to the rest of the world? I would have rather seen him actually TRY to overtake Max in a fair and square way. it would make him a more mature and favorable driver to my eyes than as he has done now.

In the heat of a battle like this, it is clear that emotions can run high, especially if you have a personality who has difficulties cooping with that. That said, that can happen to everybody, a 17 year old like Max, but also a 35 year old like Button.

Overall I believe that Max drove a great race, again showing his potential with great pace and some clean overtakes. In my eyes, he is the better driver of the 2 TR drivers and I fully agree with his own post-race comment that he deserved 8th place. F1 needs more drivers like him, with just one goal, making the best out of it in every which way you can.

204

Why o why ask a 17 year old boy to give up his place after he has driven the best race of his career?

Is there really so much difference in the tyres?

Still, if there were clear rules and agreements in place wrt team orders, Max was in the wrong.

But then also Tost would have reacted differently.

Conclusion: unclear rules, Max is allowed to follow his own opinion. A bit of mess up by Toro Rosso.

205

It's simple, Max fought tooth and nail to get to where he got and to give it up for a team mate who wasn't even on his tail... Max's race engineer shouldn't have even put him in that position. #GoMax

206

believe it was Carlos his race engineer that asked max to swap places, not Max's race engineer

207

For me, in that particular situation Max was right. Any driver that aspires to be champion would do exactly the same. That's the difference between a Barichello and a Schumacher in my opinion.

208
Thread the needle

Love the way he shouted 'no' straight away, need abit of personality in F1

Can't wait to see him in a top team

209
Gareth (the Philadelphia one)

I highly doubt young Max will be spending his career at Toro Rosso. I'm sure I pissed off some people at my teenage first job at a supermarket, they peaked working at supermarket, I did not.

Max will be moving on from stacking beans at the Toro Rosso Mart.

210

Haha, what a great comparison!!

211

Yes he was,we are racing and were not give away any presents,if carlos thought he could pas max and perez wy didn t he take a shot and try.

212

James

Could you confirm that Sainz was on new super softs rather than the scrubbed set of super V.

It may explain the Pit Wall request.

213

They were both on super softs. They got them at approximately the same time in the race. Verstappen's super softs were 1 lap older as he used them in his 1 qualification lap in the third session on Saturday. The thing was that even with those 1 lap older tires, he pulled 4 secs away from sainz after they both passed Grojean so Sainz was never faster. The team wanted to do Sainz a favor bc he was upset about a few things. They had favored Max a few times. not in a big way but still, Carlos didn't like that so Tororosso wanted to even the score. That obviously didn't work.

214

The previous post '45' was in limbo land.

I will learn to be more patient.

I believe that other posters have had a similar experience and that it was not a senior moment.

215

Disobeying a team order isn't good and maybe you have got to give Max a reprimand for it ( if not already done behind the scenes ). But looking purely to it from the racing side of things, if Junior would have been that much faster then Max he should have passed him instead of starting to whine about it. Like mentioned earlier in the comments above, Junior was only able to catch up to Max ( gap was over 3.5 seconds ) because Perez did an excellent job with his Mercedes powered motor holding of the Dutch kid. Before that ( after they both overtook Grosjean ) Max was faster in almost every lap. So if your on track and you feel you are the quicker one and your still fighting for p7....I sure wouldn't have given up my spot either.

216

In my opinion the meaning of this game is to drive as fast as you can and try to finish as much in front as possible.

MAX did just that. He is in that car to race.

A racer races and not swops places.

Or as Kimi would say: The radio is broke. I can not hear you.

217

Damn right...he should have given him the finger too!!

218

Of course he should have obeyed team orders.

Some already are saying he is the next Senna but I think time will prove he's merely the next Verstappen:)

219

Ofcourse Max was right. If TR wants obedience, they should have bought themselves a puppy, not a born winner.

But seriously: was TR realy vhinking Carlos could get passed Perez with less than 2 laps to go?

In every single race Max has proven to be one of the best overtakers of the entire field. There's no way in hell Sainz would have got passed Perez after Max had tried for 5 laps.

220

I completely agree. In addition, the entire race Verstappen was the faster driver, also in the free practice sessions and qualification. They just wanted to do Sainz a favor bc Verstappen was favored a few times in the team (Hungary comes to minid when he was called in first for a new set of tires). Verstappen refused to cooperate and rightfully so. He was faster and is a great passer.

221

Culture in the Netherlands is slightly different. Throughout your education you are tought to show initiative and not just follow any order. Even if this means not following a direct order from your employer...You have to be sure and you have to be very skilled. Both apply to Max. If Torro Rosso wouldn't have accepted this, there would have been open doors elsewhere..

222

I see many are missing the point, wrongly going by what Tost made up. The point was to get Sainz in a position to challange WITH good tires.

Had he tried a few moves on Verstappen would have cancelled the one lap "freshness" of his tires.

223

Sainz tires were 1 lap better. so the whole tires argument is nonsense. Just as much as "he wasn't close enough is nonsense as well. Verstappen drove away 4 secs from Sainz after they both passed Grojean. That showed that Sainz was never faster than Verstappen who is a better passer anyway. According to some reports ToroRosso did this to appease Sainz who ended up with the short end of the stick a few times. Tost didn't want any crisis in his team so he backed Max Verstappen. After being down by almost 2 laps and then still to end up before your teammate, is epic. Yes he was helped by the first Safetycar but after the first safety car he was still 35 secs behind the Manors. It's too bad this epic comeback race is overshadowed by that dumb teamorder.

224

It's called racing. Sainz should have tried if he was that convinced. He wasn't and he didn't.

225

He should have let Saintz through. The team are desperate for points and that could have gained the team 4 extra points if Saintz had passed Perez. Verstappen is a [Mod] boy, saying an angry no like that over the radio. It's like when you take a toy from a toddler. You have to remember that you are employed by the team and the team comes first; especially when points are tight with your team. I think Eddie Jordan was right to point that out to Max.
Saintz is a really young guy too, but I feel like he is a lot more grown up than Max.
I just have nothing positive to say about Max. I don't get why the masses love him just because he's young. ???? No logic.

226

and yet nobody noticed . that when max was held up by perez , carlos closed the gap of 4 sec clinging on to max. while max was behind perez he was still able to charge his hybrid system meanwhile carlos was racing flat out and wasnt able to charge his hybrid system. look back at the race and you will see it. thus lacking the 120 horsepower he needs to overtake maX OR perez, therefore the whole call had no sence, he was slower all the way.

227

How can you have nothing positive to say about Max? Haven't you seen the F1 GPs at all this year?

I mean, what do you really want from a racing driver? Do you want exciting and skilful racing and overtaking? I'm sure the 'masses' have seen plenty of him doing so. I know I did! Do you want to see speed? Lap times prove him quite adequate in that department. Or is just a personality contest for you?

No, I don't think people love him just because he's just young. It's because he's shown to be very, very talented. It's not just the 'masses', btw. Whatever the criticism (too young, still somewhat reckless/immature, etc.), not a single driver or ex-driver ever played down his talent or denied he's exciting to watch. Quite the contrary. So what's really bothering you about him, honestly?

228

You could be right if the order was given with, let's say, 7 or 8 laps to go. But the order was giveen with less than 2 laps to go. Considder the fact that Max was faster than Carlos in about 58 of the 62 laps: how realistic was TR's assumption that Carlos could overtake Perez in that one remaining lap?

There's no way that Carlos would have given the position back to Max as he proclaimed. When would he have done that? After he tried to overtake Perez for 5 or 6 corners? Or at the finish line?

Considdering all this, Max was absolutely right to ingnore the order. He is in that car for only 1 thing: go as fast as possible and that is exactly what he did.

229

Couple of points.

- I don't get why everyone is in awe of Max and Jos. did Jos even win a race despite being in the competitive Benetton?

- it's disgraceful how little respect that upstart kid shows his team, especially how a couple of points mean so much for them. He just wants a top drive and cares so little for his team(s) at present. His dad should give him a smack.

-as a team boss hiring a driver, I would not even consider Max. There is so much better, and I wouldn't want to put up with that smug attitude.

230

You are seeing things not so clearly, my friend.

Your first point: Jos had been tes-driving the car 2 or 3 times before he had to replace Letho in the second benetton, He was in the same team with Michael Schumacher who already sculptured the team aqround him, Still Jos at 2 podiums that season, and ten points when there were only given points for the first 6 cars.

Max has never been negative about the team in any way the last half year, no matter what happende, he backed up his crew and the team fullly 100%

Carlos has been talking nagatively about Toro Rosso several times the last couple of months and now he is whining again.

3th, not even going to comment on that one...

231

Sometimes I wonder who is 17, Max V or Lewis H. This kid is mature beyond his years. As for Lewis.....

232

You would think that a few team bosses might raise an eyebrow or two at this behaviour, but F1 can also be a very fickle business at times.....Jos knows this

Alonso is back at McLaren after all.

233

Still wonder who it was to tell Max at first to;

Stay position ???

At second to swap places???

In my opinion not a fair question, and also not allowed according to the rules.

When both trying drivers were on the same strategy, Max deservedo to hold his position.

When Carlos was able to come as close to Max as he did on Romain''s car, Max would have given him a chance.

BUT , check the latimer, Carlos did not drove faster at any moment during the last rounds.

So acting like Max is the bad guy and being frustrated because he didn't let him pass????

It's not a video game. This is F1.

Max had every right to get mad and to say NO!! to a ridiculous question.

234

Enjoyed Max's performances to this point. Just became a fan. This is going to be a fun ride.

235

Verstappen also had a retirement in Silverstone due to accident, so he had only two mechanical failures against five for Sainz. I think that's the main explanation for his big points lead, although I think he looks more talented than SAI.

236

Simple : when the Team tells an employee to do something, he/she should do it.

I mean, if someone said "Nah, I don't agree with the Team's strategy, I'm gonna fit supersofts instead of softs" then I'm quite sure he'd get his (mod) kicked and everyone would disown him.

Having said that, if there was a second question along the lines of "Was TR correct to order a position swap?" then I would answer no, they were not correct.

237

Had Max been running with his team mate race-long, I would have agreed with the team orders call, however he worked his ass off from the start to get back into the action, "worked" being the operative word here. For the team to disregard his huge effort was very disrespectful. Good on him for staying resolute. "NO!" was the best answer.

Max needs to be in a top car as soon as possible. Lets hope Red Bull makes the right choice and replaces Kvyat with him.

238

Well, I think the point of the gap is a bit simplistic, in this tyre influenced formula 1. Being too close to the car in front of you destroys your tyres, so we don't know if Sainz was managing his tyres or not. Said that, as it happened in previous races, maybe verstapen should have given the try to Carlos, and then give him the position back. I heard somewhere that max was asked ten laps before the end to switch positions, not just in the last two.

Anyway, the negative point here is the TR management of the situation. If they are giving an order, the driver should follow it. We can argue if it was the correct decision or not, but if the driver is doing whatever he wants and then you support him, you are allowing it to happen again, loosing control over your drivers.

239

Yes it was a right move for Max to race, well done young lad and he deserved the 8th position.

A future champion in the making for sure.

240

Well, I guess that's the end for the VW/Audi rumors. Absolutely extraordinary.

241

If VW doesn't buy Red Bull, and it seems very unlikely now, will they withdraw?

242

Casi inmediatamente terminada la carrera, una televisión española entrevistó a un jefe de Toro Roso y le preguntó sobre esto. Él dijo que sele había ordenado repetidamente a Verstapen que dejase adelantar a su compañero, que tenía mejor las ruedas, para que pudiese intentar adelantar a Pérez y que si no lo conseguía, Sainz le devolvería la posición. Se negó en todas las ocasiones en las que se lo ordenaron.

Respecto a lo que dice Tost sobre que Sainz no llegó a estar cerca de Verstapen es interesante esta entrevista

http://motor.as.com/motor/2015/09/20/formula_1/1442759484_636745.html

243

I am curious if Max was holding Carlos up. If this was the case, Max should have swapt

244

Max Verstappen`s "no" has a weight like does Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen. These guys can back it up with their performances.

"Team bosses can moan and threaten but the result is in the bag and secretly they will admire you rather than see you as an easy touch. And after all that Toro Rosso team boss Franz Tost sided with Verstappen." - Martin Brundle. I don`t like to to refer to anyone but most people among common people does not have any clue what it is to be a talented or in a situation where you have a chance and means to turn the tide.

That is why i mostly don`t even bother to comment here. Most stuff written here are in best case scenario just reflections of a very twisted mirror. It would be funny if it wasn`t just so sad.

245
Torchwood (mobile)

This was not a call by Max. This was a pre-discussed call by Jos Vestappen.

All this "Carlos was not close enough" is a crock of [Mod].

Max wouldn't have yielded if Carlos was flying over him in a T-47 Snowspeeder.

246

Sadly, though, the team reassures Max's position and, after 3 times not-complying to team orders vs. 3 times complying from Carlos, it proves who's #1 and #2 driver...

247

James, some of the story is missing here. If MV was given more information over the radio that CS was on newer tyres and would hand back to position, maybe this would have encouraged MV to give over P8? Are you able to get a transcript? Is there more to this than we have been given?

248

Was Torro Rosso wrong to issue the team order: I think so. Even they should have know that Sainz wouldn't be able to go for P7, therefore the shouldn't have given the team order.

Was Verstappen wrong to defy the team order: Maybe.

And with that I mean, it depends on whether he'll become that superstar or not. No one minds if a Vettel or a Hamilton is defying team orders once in a while.... as long as they're lifting the team to a higher level. Same goes for Verstappen... for as long as there's the promise he might be the next world champ, he might get away with it. When he get's into a career dip, this behaviour mind come back to haunt him though.

249

I'm afraid Max showed that he is still a little boy inside his overalls, very immature not to allow Sainz a crack, I hate it when young drivers (no matter how talented) come along and are given it all without having to fight to get there, even Senna had to do a few seasons of lower formula, Tost made it worse as well by saying he backs Max, I'm sure Frank would have given him a [Mod]

250

I didnt like the shouting "NO" down the radio like he did, I think he could have maybe handled it better, maybe that was just a bit of immaturity. And I hope next time Carlos is in front, it stays that way.

251

Let me simply comment by translating what mr van Amersfoort (Teamboss f3) said :

Original comment :

"Superlatieven schieten bij Max eigenlijk tekort. Dat hij gewoon nee zegt, bewijst hoe groot hij als coureur is. Want alle grote coureurs hadden het niet gedaan, Michael Schumacher niet en Ayrton Senna al helemaal niet. Grote sportmensen kunnen zich zoiets veroorloven. Omdat ze zo goed zijn."

That he said NO just proves how big a driver he already is. None of the big drivers would have done it. MS not; and Senna definitely not. Big sportsman can allow this. Because they are THAT good.

Again this is a statement not from me (although i fully agree) but of his former team boss.

252

I'm guessing/hoping the yes voters don't run business'

Anyone who has a common knowledge of running a business would vote No.

253

I think any driver that needs to do a defensive againts his own team mate to make a pouint does not deserve to get any points. The sipirt of a team is that, a team, and orders from his box should be taken.

Guess this is a will see what happens when Verstapen needs something... and how an overtake will be seen by Sainz next time he is close to him.

Really don't understand why many people think that Sainz was not close enough if he was trying to pass Verstapen at least 3 laps and he couldn't becasue V closed the lines heavily, clearly Verstapen needed to close to avoid beeing passed, guess I saw a diffrerent race...

254

What has always irked me about this matter is that everyone keeps talking about 'team orders' when the Team Principal himself called it a Team Request - not quite the same thing ?

I believe that Eddy Jordan's disgraceful tabloidesque treatment of MV in an after race interview is far more worthy of mention than anything that MV may have done.

To act that way when not in full command of all the facts is professionally negligent and just shows him as having an overly inflated opinion of himself - does he think he is still a team owner and can publicly try to put down and embarrass a 17/18 year old boy that way ?

Now that was shameful behaviour.

255

Well it's official....80% of JAonF1 readers don't believe in ethics....or have the maturity and foresight of a petulant 17yr old rookie.

256

Re 93

Says who? - the pompous and almighty one ?

We are all expressing our opinions, and given that we do not know everything there is to know about this matter - that's all we can do.

257

First a few facts:

Unlike what a lot of (especially Spanish) newspapers say, the order seems to have been given 2 or 3 laps before the end until the final radio exchange after which they gave up. Some seem to indicate that it was the penultimate lap and Spanish newspapers are talking about 10 or 15 laps. Sainz himself in an interview said that after sitting behind VES for 6 or 7 laps he wanted to try himself for the last 2 laps, or so.

Definitely Sainz was not faster than Verstappen. After both had managed to pass Grosjean, Verstappen was 2.5s in front. He built on that lead up to 4s, but then Sainz managed to slowly reduce that lead to just over 3s when Verstappen finally reached Perez's tail. Verstappen's tyres were probably worn a little more, but not all that much (1 lap, plus they were the used tyres from Q2, whereas Sainz had brand new)

Second, Tost's post-race explanation about Sainz not being fast enough was BS. Obviously both Verstappen and Sainz could go faster, but were held up behind Perez. It was not as if Sainz was pushing the limits to keep up with the two of them. He just kept a safe distance.

imho, it was a terrible call from Torro Rosso to give the order. After all the drama and disappointment for Verstappen at the start of this very race that they had so much hope for, he hang in there with some super fast racing and a few strokes of luck. He wasn't being noticed until he came back into play with the second safety car, but he was doing terrific stints, shaving off seconds every lap. To fight yourself back into a hard-earned 8th spot and be asked to pull over in the heat of the race for you team rival, who supposedly is 'faster', what could you possibly expect? That's just asking for trouble!

I don't think TR really thought there was a good chance for Sainz to pull off the overtake on Perez if Verstappen wasn't able to do so either. The real reason behind this order I believe was to give Sainz some LOVE. Remember it was Sainz who complained about Verstappen favouritism after the Hungarian GP, because of his undercut during the race. Also, Sainz has been in a real bad stretch of luck recently. Furthermore, Verstappen is outshining Sainz in almost every race with his daring overtakes, but Sainz is a very good, nice, hard-working guy himself and I think the team wanted to show a bit of commitment to him. He was going to give back the spot anyway, so why not?

Altogether it's a very bad situation for both of them now. Verstappen for being seen as a spoiled brat, and Sainz for being seen as a cry-baby. Besides, they were quite friendly and cooperative between them until now. Will that continue?

258

It was a terrible call from Torro Rosso to give the order.

Altogether it’s a very bad situation for both of them now. Verstappen for being seen as a spoiled brat, and Sainz for being seen as a cry-baby. Besides, they were quite friendly and cooperative between them until now.

Will that continue?

Best comment I read here!!!

259

Sainz already let him pass in a few occasions....

Next time Sainz will not let him pass and this Verstappen boy will have to live with it.

260

And then Max will push Carlos of the track. As a Senna would do!

261

the problem with Max is Jos the dad.

Dad was a barely decent F1 driver that was arrogant and frustrated by faster team mates and he is just getting his revenge via the young boy.

A lot of negative energy if you ask me. that may not bring much in the long term.

262

Driving in dirty air too close behind a teammate ruins the brakes and tyres, is risky,....

So it is stupid to say that the teammate behind has to try to overtake the teammate in front to be allowed to pass. He will need the brakes and tyres for the not team intern overtake.

Probably the team has to say precisely when the rear teammate is allowed to overtake before a race. Probably the dirty air effect depends on track, temperature, tyres, ...but all that can be discussed before a race.

263

Could you imagine Senna, Schumi, Prost, Alonso, Vettel, giving up their position to their team mate? No way, and that's what makes them the champions everyone else wants to be.

He's a champion in the making!

264

RIght or wrong, the boy is living up to last years hype, If Tost backs Verstappens's decision, then then why let the call go out in the first place let alone multiple times? Is he the boss or isn't he? He says "the team wanted to swap positions..." Is he not the team? Or is he a press officer? Tost agreeing after the fact is disingenuous and for me makes obvious the political weight Max and his dad have over at TR.

265

As I see it, please tell me if i'm wrong.

The original request came from Carlos himself at the team to ask Max to move over.

Then the team askt Max 4 times to let Carlos by. 4 laps before we saw it on TV.

So Carlos why not pass Max yourself? Why did you not push? I don't think your tires were so much better with just one lap less. With only one third of the points of Max I think Carlos is desperate for points and would not have given the place back to Max. If you want to pass just do it and don't ask Max to get out of the way.

I don't think Carlos has a seat at TR yet for 2016 so it is time for him to preform.

266

A true champion wouldn't let him pass,and that's what max is gonna be.

By not doing so shows his utter determination to win and what a true racer he is......would Senna Schumacher Vettel Hamilton let him past......Na

267

As we can see now Suzuka is history is that Max does not need team orders to get past his teammate.

"Erop en erover" like the dutch say...

It should be clear now that Max is the better and more talented driver of them two, and that in his second year in single seaters. In the beginning of the season, Sainz more or less had the advantage but that is history.

next teammate, please...

268

They are both very good drivers, and yes I agree that MV is the better of the 2 [ a real racer ] at the moment and his 1st year in F1.

Even though a rookie I think that if he was in a Merc , Hamilton would be dusted quite often

Hamilton is a very good driver, but manufactured with what ever he says not coming across as sincere - whereas Verstappen is a natural, and i just loved it when he put Eddy Jordan in his place last week when EJ tried to put him down and embarrass him.

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