Wolff admits conflict on Red Bull engine supply; sees “no reason” for Bottas Ferrari move
Mercedes
Toto Wolff
Posted By: James Allen  |  13 Aug 2015   |  8:58 am GMT  |  163 comments

Mercedes Benz boss Toto Wolff has spoken this week in an interview about his conflict regarding the idea of supplying engines to Red Bull and his thoughts as mentor to Valtteri Bottas on whether the Finn will move to Ferrari.

The 43 year old Austrian, at the helm of the team for almost two and a half years, has been approached by Red Bull on several occasions as they look to find a competitive solution to their engine supply problems. Their very public fall out with Renault and the expectation that Renault will have its own works team soon, possibly through the acquisition of Lotus, means that Red Bull are getting desperate to find an engine with which they can compete.

Toto Wolff

“If I wear my Mercedes Benz motorsport boss’ hat and think about what is in the best interests of F1, then I have to say it’s (a Red Bull engine supply) an interesting option because it it would link us to a brand that has huge appeal among the young and it’s a winning brand,” Wolff told Gazzetta dello Sport.

“However, speaking as the boss of a rival F1 team, I have to say that it’s not ideal to strengthen one of your main competitors which knows how to make winning racing cars.”

It would indeed be awkward for Mercedes’ competition department to explain to the board why they were being beaten by a customer team, if that turned out to be the scenario. It would, however, be highly unusual because a customer engined team has never beaten a works team on a sustained basis.

But looking at the landscape of the current engine manufacturers active in F1 there seems little alternative but for Red Bull to work with either Mercedes or Ferrari and that means both sides accepting that there will be some risk in the enterprise.

Mercedes, McLaren 2012

Red Bull is more highly funded and more competent than any ‘customer’ team in recent history, although one could look at McLaren from 2010 to last year as a ‘customer’ team of Mercedes and for the early years of that arrangement they were beating the works team, so there is a precedent. However at that time Mercedes F1 team was building up to its current level. It would be hard to justify the expense of maintaining the Silver Arrows if the cars were losing to a Red Bull with the same engine.

Wolff notes the improvement in the reliability of the Mercedes package this year, which has allowed them to be ahead on last year’s points tally after 10 races. They have 383 points, compared to 366 last year, with double points finishes in every round.

“The quality control department deserves a lot of credit” he says. ” In 2013 we had 70% reliability, last year it was 80% and this year so far it’s 92%.”

Wolff, Williams

On Bottas and the rumours of his transfer to Ferrari, Wolff says he can’t see any reason why the Finn, in whose career he has invested since junior formulae, should leave Williams,

“It makes sense that Williams, which has invested in him and taken the risk of taking him when he was young, has not yet had value from him, so can get that by selling him to another team. He’s a great lad who can be an asset to any team but Williams is the third force of this championship it aspires to reach the podium at every race and I cannot see any reason why he should leave.”

Wolff Mercedes

Wolff also defends Hamilton’s erratic performance in Hungary, ” In the previous 9 races Lewis didn’t make mistakes. It can happen. And he wasn’t the only one to make mistakes; the team, Rosberg too made mistakes.”

Hamilton has been partying in the Caribbean with pop star Rihanna, all widely chronicled in photos and Wolff notes that, “In these holiday weeks all of us have the right to be left in pace. Lewis is a veteran and knows what he can and cannot do.”

Mercedes ended the first half of the season with two poor starts in Silverstone and Hungary. Wolff says he has no concerns about the change in regulations, obliging the drivers to prepare the clutch themselves from Spa onwards for the starts, “Our team has always been good at reacting to new regulations,” he says. ” In general though I agree with this decision because the starts should be in the hands of the drivers. At least this way we will have an end to the talk that a good start is down to the driver and a bad one is down to the computer.”

Wolff notes that the team will decide early next week whether to bring the updated Mercedes power unit, using some of its development ‘tokens’ to Spa, or whether to wait for Monza. Both are power hungry circuits where in the past a team would normally schedule to have a new engine for each for maximum performance. Mercedes have had good reliability so far and will want to be assured that their race engines, in the car since Round 7, will have no problems reaching the chequered flag in Spa. If they have doubts, they’ll bring the new units.

Susie Wolff

The holiday period finds Toto and Susie Wolff on the Costa Smeralda in Sardinia, where he was unable to take part in activities last year as he was nursing injuries from his notorious cycling accident.

This year his wife Susie has issued an amusing tweet on the subject (above). We trust he will be in one piece at Spa next week…

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1

…..still surprised that Mr Wolff allowed such conflicts of interest: I think he still owns at least a piece of Williams, his wife is one of their drivers, he manages Vallteri if I am not mistaken, and he obviously is TP for M-B. Not questioning his abilities, if ANYONE can do these things, and do them well, I think it’s Toto…….but, should anyone have the ability to impact so many things all at once? Just thinking out loud

a little bit.

2

We are musicians from Los Angeles, California and we were in Hungary in 2013. We hung out with a Formula One Pit Crew for several nights in Budapest. Then we were invited by the guys to go to Magyar to see the races. We were so inspired that we wrote and recorded this song. If you get a chance post the song! Formula 1 rocks! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kakc6UvjRIE

3

Are the new rumours true that Mercedes have now agreed to supply Red Bull with engines?

4

I have to disagree with the logic of Wolff and with F1 regulations. Since F1 judged that new PUs with a radically new and expensive design are required, a design that was, I suppose attractive to car manufacturers like Mercedes, a rule should have been imposed that any customer team should be able to request the PU from a works team, subject to the capacity of the works team to deliver sufficient number of PUs. As we are talking about Mercedes, the capacity must be there.

Anyway, what is the alternative? RBR exiting F1? Is that good for the show?

I would like, as someone who enjoys following F1, to see RBR with a Mercedes engine fighting for the title. Why not? It is good for the show. Can someone convince me that this would not be good for the show? There should either be no customer teams or any customer team should be able to request a PU from works team, subject to the capacity of the works team to deliver the PU.

Saying that 50% of the grid with Mercedes PUs would not make sense, also doesn’t make sense. Why are all the cars on the same tyre? Why not diversify the tyre choice? Or, have all the cars with the same PU as they have the same tyre. I don’t see a fundamental problem with having all the cars with the same PU.

I suggest, let us get the best possible show that we can. Anything less than that is damaging to F1 and to the F1 fans’ experience. If this is not acceptable for the works teams, let us go back to the cheaper PUs, or so called engines, that any F1 team can afford, engines that will be much closer in performance.

As for Bottas, he is a very nice chap. Is he going to be a champion? I hope so. He is a nice chap, but perhaps too nice. He is a very consistent driver though, maybe ideal for Ferrari, considering they already have Vettel.

5

The fundamental problem will always be Ferrari, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be in F1 but they will always be a works team in sport that I think would work better at the moment with only customer teams and the choice of 2 engines. That way you can have RB,Mclaren,Wiiliams etc building the best car for their engine choice. Having only 2 works teams with the 2 best engines just doesn’t work. Have 5 teams all fighting for the Championship.

6

@ john….i do sometimes follow indycars and it is interesting to see just how close their racing is! they operate with only two engine suppliers, honda and chevrolet. out of the top ten, ATM ,chevrolet engined cars occupy eight places but the racing is very close and most often wheel to wheel. there is a message there when F1 is struggling with four engine suppliers!

7

BTW Kenneth, that’s the difference between racing “engine suppliers” and racing “teams” who supply engines.

I would prefer everyone supply their own engines but it won’t happen.

8

What??

You mean they’re racing that close at over 200 mph and nobody’s complaining that they can’t follow closely due to dirty air?

Definitely not F1 then, is it?

But – and this is just a stray thought – maybe if F1 cars went faster they wouldn’t have that problem, I don’t know…

9

I think perhaps Toto would like to see Bottas in a Mercedes seat at some point, probably replacing Rosberg when his contract expires.

10

The next driver in a MB F1 car is going to be Pascal Wehrlein, either replacing NR or LH. It won’t be Bottas.

11

“because it it would link us to a brand that has huge appeal among the young and it’s a winning brand,” Wolff told Gazzetta dello Sport.”

There was a news in JAonF1 a few threads back about RB and the # of responses were 30 (now 37); speaks volumes of their “huge appeal”. There was also a recent news elsewhere about RB being the most important F1 brand. I think these are some rubbish nonsense planted by vested interests, similar to the Max V news being planted every week in F1 news sources. I for once decided to never click on any news related to Max unless it is directly related racing; same goes to this RB team.

12

And among that 37 comments, some were related to Jenson Button and Fangio’s exhumed body 🙂

13

Which is of course a plot to get the great man’s DNA and make clones!

14

If Mercedes decides to not supply Red Bull they’re basically saying:

1- All teams currently running Mercedes engines are unable to build a proper race car, so it’s fine to let them have Mercedes engines.

2- If you run Mercedes engines you better not challenge or embarrass the factory team, or else…

15

I made the same point above. The real question is, would cut your nose off to spite your face, probably no. I to see it as insult to Williams, and to his driver, who he would rather see pinned down in a team that is controlled not to win, rather than won who wants to win.

If I was Mercedes I wouldn’t supply Red Bull. But personally I would like to see them do it. It’s a very strange situation isn’t it!!

16

Exposure Kenneth, LMP1 viewer numbers are a tiny fraction of the F1 figures. Audi and Porsche are in Motorsport to shift units, not learn about hybrid systems. There would be very little cross over technology even from a sports car programme, and none from F1. If road car companies want to learn anything new they do it in their R and D departments.

17

@ chris….the massive juggernaut that is mercedes should welcome the challenge from red bull. if mercedes are as good as they think then they should absolutely swamp red bull who are financially a ‘minnow’ by comparison. budget spends are not a true valid comparison as mercedes have publically stated that they can draw on literally unlimited ‘home’ resources when necessary. i for one would love to see what a head to head race between both these teams, with the same engine, would provide.

18

Quite a while ago, but at one stage wasn’t every car or nearly every car in the field powered by a Ford Coswoth DFV? I guess Ferrari would have been the exception?

F1 managed to survive that era!

19

Peter, you make good points above and below, F1 did not just survive the Cosworth era, the sport flourished and was affordable for small, what we called privateer, teams. In fact, they actually won races. I suppose that we could do a long rant that all evil goes to the munchkin’s taste for money but that’s not the thread here. I’ve posted my opinion about “factory” teams in the past. Besides, I still have a week of holiday. 🙂

20

Yes indeed. But, Cosworth didn’t have a team – which was perfect, and if F1 hadn’t gone down the silly engine route, Cosworth could still be a player. But Cosworth don’t have the money to build the new engines, simple as that. R&D is way too expensive and the chances of them stacking up well against the Merc, why the hell would they even want to try.

As for the daydreaming about Audi and Porsche entering as an engine supplier, not gonna happen.

21

@kenneth. Prestige?

22

@ rob carrier….as both audi and porsche have publically stated. everything they need to know re hybrid engines they get from their respective WEC entries. why would they entertain an entry into F1?

23

Yeah, sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply Ford (or Cosworth) should enter the fray, I was just pointing out the precedent of a single engine manufacturer dominating and it not really have a huge impact on the popularity or spectacle of the sport.

Personnaly, I can’t imagine there could be a sane business case for a new engine builder to get involved under the current regs!

24

If I was Horner I’d be irritated by the abject failure of Renault too. Do Renault supply the engines for free? Renault have had the same time to develop and technical direction as all teams, Ferrari and Mercedes included. They got it right…..

25

Yes it is correct that Williams have made an investment in Bottas and so has Wolff. When a driver needs funding to get a drive, you will find that backers of the driver will then have a cut / percentage of any “Sell on Fee” or “Earnings”. You see it today in footballers.

The question for Williams is or has Bottas reached his peak. Can he get better? The back injury he had, is it worst than we have been told?

My concern is his Race Craft. When a Driver gets to F1 their race craft should be or they should be at their peak. He has struggled a few times. We know that Williams in the past have let drivers go, when they are not consistent at each race. Damon Hill had that problem in the year before his championships year, hence why Williams didn’t renew his contract, and then he surprised them by winning, but they had already signed up another driver.

Massa on the other hand has upped his game this year and now Bottas isn’t looking as good as he was last year, therefore has he peaked? It is all down to timing and who is available on the market to replace him. If it was me, I would sell Bottas and take the money from Ferrari. Massa contract is also up this year with an option, so who knows what Williams will do.

The big question which is worrying Red Bull is what will Renault do? Will they stay in and fight to improve the engine or leave or acquire a team. I firmly believe that once the bean counters start looking at the Enstone books, they wouldn’t like what they find and the cost of acquiring the team plus add in the amount to kill the Mercedes engine deal and the amount of cash they will need to pump into the place to bring it up to a works teams spec is just too great, but on the other hand acquiring Red Bull, and there Technology Centre, they have a state of the Art Manufacturing plant and a highly skilled work force plus Adrian. We should also remember they then have a seat at the big table and funds from the CCB scheme, until the EU gets their hands into the F1 circus.

26

Hi Keith,

Once again its very hard tk disagree wjth anything you’ve said, another excellent post … you really talk a lot of sense.

Mike

27

Considering all the noise that Red Bull is making about Renault engines this year, I would not sell them anything if I was Merc or Ferrari. Seriously, think about all the negative publicity Merc could get if something will not go the Red Bull way?

28

So if VB doesn’t head to Ferrari, where does that leave the red team re Kimi. They seem to want to replace him with someone faster but who? JB?

29

I’d be happy if they kept Kimi for another year and make a full tilt for in 2017

30

“However, speaking as the boss of a rival F1 team, I have to say that it’s not ideal to strengthen one of your main competitors which knows how to make winning racing cars.”

In other words, we only sell our engines to teams we don’t fear…

31

@Robert McKay

In other words, we only sell our engines to teams we don’t fear…

Bearing in mind they are in a competition , you have to admit it would be foolish to pass any unnecessary advantage to your competitors – what would you do?

32

@Robert McKay

it was a relatively damning indictment of what Mercedes thinks of Force India, Lotus and Williams….

Its only my opinion but, for want of a better expression, I don’t think Mercedes are frightened of FI, Lotus or Williams in the same way they would be frightened by Red Bull with a competitive PU. The reason is simple; the respective level of resources. Mercedes can outspend the FI, Lotus and Williams with ease (their budget is 3 or 4 times as great). Red Bull, on the other hand, are different kettle of fish altogether. Obviously they could not match Mercedes ultimate spending power, but their actual spends are not massively different. As is mentioned in the article, if Red Bull had a Mercedes PU and started beating the works team then how would that go down back in Stuttgart? Not very well is my guess.

Out of interest, why aren’t you dissing on Ferrari for failing to step forward and offering to give Red Bull a hand up? The Ferrari PU is reckoned to be on a par with the Merc’s.

33

Oh, I’m not saying Mercedes *should* pass an unnecessary advantage on, the point was primarily to state that it was a relatively damning indictment of what Mercedes thinks of Force India, Lotus and Williams. Whether that’s a justified indictment or not is harder to say – I don’t think I’m quite as harsh towards Williams as Layercake is, but I don’t think that he/she is a million miles away from the truth. They seem a bit too

But the engine point raises some other points/concerns, I think.

1 – If we’re really saying there’s no way a customer-engine team can beat a works-engine team to a championship then 2 engines and hence just two potential champion teams is not enough for a sufficiently varied Formula 1. Even 4 engines, if Renault and Honda catch up to an equivalent level, still is a bit marginal.

2 – if e.g. Williams go back to base and suddenly find a half a second a lap through some new aero whizz trick and are hounding and beating the Mercs, can they expect Mercedes to stop supplying them engines at the first possible break-point? If not, what’s the difference between them and Red Bull? If so, what’s the Williams incentive to challenge?

3 – Is it potentially better in the long run for Mercedes to give e.g. equal engines to equal teams and race them properly? A couple of years of winning with ease, with no real opposition, helps rack up the trinkets and statistics, but in the long run it’s going to work against them, either via fan backlash or the rules being changed to slash their advantage. Once they’ve had a couple of easy years where all the victories have paid back the initial investment, they could head off some of those threats by having an exhilirating, competitive, level-playing-field championship with one of their main rivals on the same engine. In much the same way they got a lot of good PR for helping make a potentially dull 2014 season much better by providing a proper fight between the drivers, they could do the same with another big team where potentially the worst thing that could happen is that their engine still wins.

34

Yes, in one simple sentence toto admits that Williams, force India, lotus, etc will never beat them to a title. This to me ads to the hilarious fans who go on and on about history stating they’d rather a team like red bull leave the sport before Williams. Red bull at least try’s to be a works team. 2 works teams actually. Williams does what again?

35

@ robert mc kay…you raise some very interesting comments which i will now go back and give some further thought. thanks for your contribution.

36

A solution: Allow Red Bull to be Mercedes customers but under the proviso that Adrian Newey can no longer be a part of the RB technical team whether by employment or voluntarily.

Mercedes benefit in both circumstances by doing what’s best for the sport and by ensuring that they keep a technical advantage.

Besides, Adrian wants to go do America’s Cup yachts and so far Red Bull haven’t let him.

37

@ dave highkinen….that would rank as one of the silliest suggestions that i have read lately.

38

What kind of deal is that where you bar a person from working in F1 as though he has done something wrong like Flavio, when on the contrary he did exactly the opposite?

39

It’s not barring him from working in F1, it’s barring him from working with Red Bull so that they can have the best engine. I’m sure Ferrari would have him if he became available (and if he still wanted to work in F1)

40

Red Bull will never approach Ferrari – question of pride – even though Toro Rosso uses their engines. Anyway, not whilst Marko is around. I hope Merc will just let Red Bull sort themelves out with either Renault or Honda. What’s the point of having 50% of the grid with the same engine when there are 4 manufacturers?

41

Toro Rosso haven’t used Ferrari engines for years. Use Renault.

42

Years plural? They last had Ferrari engines in 2013.

43

@ superfast,……… what’s the point etc etc etc? the point is that we may see some real wheel to wheel racing on a more consistent basis. you fail to take into account that it is ‘performance’ not a ‘badge’ that we are hoping for. consider this, what if renault produced an engine with identical performance to the mercedes ? would that provide better racing?

44

@ dean….do you have a problem in taking on board comments that may not coincide with the mainstream but nevertheless offer up an alternative opinion?

45

Jees… what is it with you 2! Layercake followed by Kenneth…..[mod]

46

Red bull – dieter the man himself, approached Ferrari. Care to try again?

47

Why would anyone risk the same media mess that RBR constantly has swirling around them especially since the last few years childish relationship with Renault!

Let them approach Cosworth…

48

100% Mr Brooksy – RBR/ Horners comments are a disgrace Anyway you look at it.

@Kenneth- Who in their right mind gives “performance guarantees” in F1 & You think Performance guarantees work one way?. If your a “works partner” dont you expect certain things too. Like a Torro Rosso performing very solidly ahead of RBR with 2 rookies in tow!!. Still a poor season by Any standards but then 2010-3 werent too bad the last time I checked… OH Sorry.. That was all RBR was it??

Pathetic, Utterly disgraceful behaviour from a drinks co.. Sorry for the rant Im a little charged up on V my preferred fizzy drink. 🙂

49

@ elie….so you think that red bull just go along for the ride, hoping that renault can produce an engine that is on par with ferrari and mercedes and that renault are not in any way responsible for providing the team with any output parameters?

i am a little perplexed as to why you and lots of others use such derogatory words/context when discussing red bull! you seem to think that it is useful to any debate to describe them as merely a ‘drinks company’ as if that ,in any way, lessens their value. i thought for a while that you were above such childish accusations but apparently not.

red bull racing and red bull technology are on a par, and above that, in many cases, the standard set by all FD1 teams when it comes to F1 set ups. their facilities are state of the art and they employ and invest in F1 on a very large scale. i have no love of red bull as a team but i will defend them against the railings of the ‘parrots’ that continually call them out for being up front and saying’ it is what it is’.

50

You would have done differently if you were the team principal?

51

Layercake, odd that you direct the discussion to Lewis. Would seem he owns you.

Seb humble? Maybe sometimes. Multi 21 is one example of not-very-humble behaviour. Seb was acting as though he was bigger than an entire team in that instance. What’s the opposite of humble? Arrogance? Would apply in the Multi 21 case.

52

Layercake, he isn’t nicknamed Nicole, it’s just you who says that. Kudos for shoehorning a Hamilton dig into a post that has absolutely nothing to do with him whatsoever!

53

@Kenneth

not privy to those details but if i connect all the dots …..

So, let me get this straight. By your own admission, you know nothing more than Mr Brooksy – but your guess is better than his. Is that about right?

54

@C63 – possibly, either your definition or my intention, both end in Lewis crying and him and his fans throwing thier toys out of the pram.

55

@Layercake

Is irony like silvery – just not so shiny?

56

@C63 – Class? Let’s see how Lewis handles his fall from the top. It seams like every 3.21 seconds a Lewis supporter is commenting on Red Bull with “throw your toys out of the pram” – the irony here is that Lewis is the literal definition of throwing your toys out of the pram. He’s not nicknamed ‘Nicole’ for no reason.

Vettel is the most humble 4x world champion ever. If you ever need a definition of class I suggest looking towards vettel.

57

@ Kenneth – Yes… but it appears the dots you are joining are in different locations to the dots being joined by the majority.

58

@ mr, brooksy….i am amazed that you can actually come to this conclusion without knowing the intimate details of what has transpired between the two companies. what was promised, what was delivered, what the future holds etc etc etc.

i also am not privy to those details but if i connect all the dots i come up with a scenario that says that red bull were promised a level of performance that never eventuated in 2014. i am led to believe that RB were promised that there would be performance gains in 2015 when in fact they went backwards and their drivers have already used their total years allocation of engines in half the races!!! so what should red bull do? say nothing, tug their forelocks and let their team take the rap? despicable behaviour ? the only despicable behaviour is that of renault, selling goods that are not fit for purpose.

59

@Mr Brooksy

+1 well said. Red Bull had no class when they were winning, so I guess it’s no surprise they show no class when they are losing.

60

Are you serious!?

When was the last time you heard Sir Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Flavio B, Ken Tyrrell, Ross Brawn, etc SLAM their engine partner repeatedly in press conferences, in regular media interviews?

Rarely criticise, if ever! Completely different attitude to RB leadership.

Don’t get me wrong, Renault are way behind! Everyone knows this, but being childish and ranting in public about your most important technical partner (even when he/she is in the room) is despicable. Teams that have been around a few decades know that you can not have everything your own way on your terms is simply not possible.

If I were Mercedes I’d think twice about getting into bed with Red Bull Racing.

61

RedBull would perhaps be well advised to keep their powder dry a while longer. One suspects that Honda’s PU is going to come good this season and then it might actually be a serious competitor,,,,,,

62

+1. Duh. Honda should be poised for success in next regulation change. Me thinks they gross incompetence displayed by them in current form is similar to Mercedes 2010, it’s all about the next regulation change.

63

To paraphrase what I’ve said elsewhere about RBR and engines: let them eat cake.

Their constant prima donna whining hasn’t made them any fans and I personally wouldn’t p on them if they were drowning (metaphorically speaking, ofc).

Imagine you are the dominant team with the dominant engine and are doing just fine-thank-you, and you suddenly have to deal with a biatchy customer/competitor like this?

Part of the contract would be a gag order!

No, let ol’ Dieter spend some of those billions by buying Cosworth and making his own! He might learn to respect Renault a little more.

64

@Rich C

I tend to agree. What I find most extraordinary is that Red Bull have publicly bad mouthed Renault, behaving in the most undignified way – yet they don’t appear to have a backup plan for PU supplier in place. Did they not foresee this eventuality ? I thought they were smart !

65

@Kenneth- Just because your Red Bull doesnt make you smart.. If you open your mouth and trash comes out.. You look decidedly stupid.. No matter how big your title, wallet or your IQ.

& it doesnt matter whether your in a majority, minority, have a popular/ unpopular opinion-Good people only deal in the truth:-

Q:- “Is it right that Red bull constantly bag their partner Renault in Public”

A:- ” No”

End of story. You starting to sound worse than they are.

66

@Kenneth

red bull…… are most likely right up there when it comes to corporate operations be they legal/logistical whatever…….

So, if they truly are the genius’s that you claim. All seeing and all knowing, with a veritable army of brains overseeing every move on the ‘chess board’ of F1. How is that they have ended up saddled with the Renault PU? A dud I believe you called it.

67

kenneth, thanks for the non-answer. I’m absolutely sure they have armies of legal eagles telling them they’re in the right. They probably said “slam dunk” before the fuel-flow meter fiasco as well.

You have too much faith in big corporations and authorities. At the end of the day, it’s still just fallible people behind the monoliths. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say they’d win a legal case easily, and then lost, and sometimes lost badly, I’d have a tidy sum. I would rather bet on horses than legal outcomes, especially dealing with contracts.

68

@Kenneth

Oh, and one further thought. Why do you think Honda and Renault are struggling with this new formula? It’s because it’s hard. Why is it hard – because it’s the pinnacle of motor sport. If it was easy ,and you could just rock up and ‘steal’ the championship then it wouldn’t be the pinnacle – would it 🙂

69

@Kenneth

Thought they were smart…..are not a few steps ahead….

I don’t think I said that – your powers of observation appear to be failing you.

From the article:

‘Their very public fall out with Renault ……..means that Red Bull are getting desperate to find an engine with which they can compete’….. So you see Kenneth, it’s not just me suggesting they have burnt their bridges, it’s James as well.

There appears to [me] be very little upside for Red Bull in all this. They have been the de facto works team for Renault and have done very well from that partnership. To then publicly throw that partner under the bus because they are struggling with the new regulations is, in my opinion, both undignified and foolish. What has it achieved – where are they going to get another deal like that in the foreseeable future? Has it been a smart way to handle the situation? They will be relegated to being a mere customer team. Is that a better long term bet than remaining the Renault works team?

Look at the pain McLaren is going through with Honda. Have you heard RD publicly slam Honda for the mediocre PU they are supplying his team? I guarantee you haven’t and that’s what I meant by dignified behaviour. All the shouting will be going on behind closed doors. No good comes from airing ones dirty linen in public – in my opinion of course (as you like to say 🙂 )

70

@ dean…just a pointer for you. don’t ever assume that you know where my support and understanding of the current events lie. you would have absolutely no idea. if you had been reading my posts you would’ve already known my thoughts on red bull, as a team. apparently you have decided that you are in a position to know my mind! what a joke.

‘ever wondered why i am in a minority etc etc etc’? another of your attempts at levity…massive fail there. i do not always fly with the flock. reason being being for that is that it resembles ‘galahs’, just following what seems to be popular ATM. that is demonstrated by the over use of worn out cliches. sometimes one needs to sit back and analyse and come up with an original thought rather than jump onto the bandwagon as a lot of people do. anyway dean, have a nice day. how’s that for originality?

71

@ KRB….what evidence do i have etc etc etc’ are you suggesting that a team like red bull wouldn’t have at their disposal ,or even embedded within their team, logistical specialists and a fully operational legal team for advice? c’mon. big business, and red bull is big business, are most likely right up there when it comes to corporate operations be they legal/logistical whatever. i think that that is a very fair assumption. these people are not greasy handed garage mechanics…..

72

@kenneth, what evidence do you have that RBR are a few steps ahead of any imaginable scenario, other than just blind faith?!? It certainly doesn’t seem like it! As far as I see, they tried to coax Audi in, Audi said no. Ferrari said they’d supply them, but wouldn’t give them the best of the best (still not sure how they’re able to do that, but that’s another matter).

RBR have a right to be peeved off beyond belief, but they should’ve left the riot act for behind closed doors only. Airing the dirty laundry as they’ve done is just unprofessional, and now, as I’ve said, it’s probably accounted for some hesitation in Audi considering joining, or in Mercedes supplying them. They are noted complainers. Serious people don’t need that sort of hassle.

73

Big business it may be Kenneth but there is also an element of “SPORT” involved – How big an element can be debated all day but it IS a Sport at the end of the day. Racing the fastest should be what its about not shouting the loudest. I know your a RIC fan and its only since he burst on the scene with Red Bull that you’ve been supportive of them…. Take Ric out of the situation and you would agree with the Majority. Plus… have you ever wondered why you are in the Minority on this Red Bull subject?? Give it a thought.

74

@ C63….’i thought they were smart’ !!!! do you seriously think that they,RBR,. are not a few steps ahead of anything that you can come up with? the fact that the renault engine has been such a dud would’ve had RB doing their sums a long time ago. they will have all the bases covered in order to achieve the best result that they can achieve, whatever that may be. there is nothing undignified by red bulls approach. i am constantly surprised by the naivety expressed by so many posters. this is not ‘tiddeley winks’ you know. this is big time business and it is fought out with a level of ferocity that is part and parcel of F1.

75

You know that any success Renault has last year and this year is because of red bulls software team stepping in and writing code for those pathetic lumps Renault calls power units. Renault have basically breached contract in providing such a terrible unit and there is no respect to be had from red bull or anyone else for that matter. Incompetence is something you deal with? I sure don’t and can’t imagine a team like red bull does either.

76

@Layercake

red bull had to step in with it’s software team…….

Isn’t that what partners do? Help each other out in difficult times – as opposed to public criticising!

77

@ROB – re-read my post. red bull had to step in with it’s software team and save renault from not even being able to fire up their engine.

I’m not sure how you define breach of contract, and perhaps I mis-used the term, but that has nothing to to with the fact that when the client has to step in and do the work you’re paid to do, you have failed in catastrophic fashion.

Red Bull has every right to bad mouth Renault and hopefully sue them as well.

78

Layercake & Kenneth – You make good bed fellows. Not an iota of sense between you but good bed fellows you would make.

79

How do you assume ‘breach of contract’ exactly? Some people talk utter nonsense sometimes. I suppose Honda are in breach of contract too? Maybe Alonso and Button should sue? Performance clauses are safeguards against unforeseen under-performance, breach of contract is rather different.

80

@ layercake….well said. i fully concur and have said so, many times.

81

As several others have commented, I think the common practice of team managers also being driver managers/agents is just wrong.

There is simply NO way that this is not a conflict of interest, no matter how honest and noble said manager might be.

I understand that they are the “insiders” that know everything that’s happening but it just should not be allowed.

82

Wolff has stepped back from managing Bottas. He is now managed by Didier Coton.

83

@James Allen-Yes but by wanting Valtteri to stay at Williams he keeps Mercedes power as a perfect barrier to Ferrari challenges.. Talk about conflict – wonder how the guy sleeps.. Oh wait another Williams in there.. : )

84

“He has a financial interest in his progress…” I call that managing.

85

Is that why he’s commenting like he’s still managing Bottas though?

86

Is he? He’s saying that he can’t see why Bottas would move. He has a financial interest in his progress and he’d earn more at Ferrari

87

Honestly, who really cares about Bottas? Nice guy maybe but all he has proven so far is that he is around the same level as Massa. Good but not great. Ferrari should change their model and take a chance on Verstappen or Sainz. If they can get them.

88

I know this is not Mercedes fault, but there engine is so good it has put off other manufacturers entering. Admittedly Hondas and Renaults effort haven’t helped, and to some extent Ferraris (but there resurgence shows it’s possible to develop a great engine). We can never be a one engine formula unless Ferrari supplies everyone, but then we would never have manufacturers entering, and the current world champions would have to leave/sell.

I would like to see Red Bull supplied with engines, but TW comments suggest they believe Red Bull are a threat, and then in the same set of comments he suggests his driver Bottas should stay at Williams (presumably there no threat – interesting).

Wonder what Williams make of these comments. I still maintain they are receiving behind the scenes support from Mercedes. His wife being there is part of the bargain, and maybe Bottas to. I maintained Williams would slip if someone took the fight to Mercedes, and to some extent that has been visible.

89

Defiantly Red Bull is between a rock and a hard place regards the engines in other words success can sometimes be a curse.

If Red Bull was still a new team with no success then the major engine suppliers wouldn’t worry about supplying them power units.

What’s then left for Red Bull is to stick with Renault and hope they come up with the goods beginning in Sochi.

Regards Bottas, if Wolff sees no reason why Bottas should leave Williams, this can only mean he got word that Kimi will be staying on at Ferrari because I recall Bottas was one of the drivers that have contacted Ferrari team principal inquiring about Kimi’s seat.

Interesting that the Wolff family have competition time e.g. pizza eating competition and water sport competition.

And judging from the picture, it appears Susie tends to emerge the victor.

90

Looks like Ferrari retaining Kimi, as they won’t go for Hulk and Red Bull are going to hang on to Ricc. I think Seb has had some infuence on the decision.

Hell, Kimi hasn’t even driven that badly and has had more bad luck than any driver this season.

91

@ NickH

Spot on.

92

Or, they think he’s not as fast as Vettel and avoiding him would be a wise choice.

93

@ goferet….’two roosters in the same hen house’

94

@ leboi

Ironically, this would make Bottas Vettel’s perfect teammate become Ferrari do not believe in having two roosters within the team.

95

Bottas should go to Ferrari if he knows whats best for his future. He can match Vettel and be within a team on the rise back toward the sharp end.

96

Its a really difficult one because if he does supply RBR that only accelerates Renaults decision to either quit F1 or buy Lotus. IMHO- Renault should take the initiative and enter F1 in 2016- they can still fulfill the RBR supply in 2016 ( & beyond if they rectify their issues). Then we would have the 4 manufacters back in F1 which can only be a good thing in the long term and Lotus can breathe a new lease of life again!.

Toto should not supply Red Bull I dont think it does anyone any favours by having 6 Mercedes powered teams in F1 and 5 of them never in a position to win the WCC. RBR must see itself through 2016 with Renault . When the new regs come out in 17/18 thats the time they should consider a switch. By then perhaps Ferrari or Honda maybe the preferred option or better still a new entrant in Audi or Porsche!.

97

“I dont think it does anyone any favours by having 6 Mercedes powered teams in F1 and 5 of them never in a position to win the WCC.”

Indeed! I think that’s called a stitch up! Or an ulterior motive………..

98

Feels like Bottas is afraid of going to Ferrari.

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