Insight: How close to Vettel did Webber get during five seasons at Red Bull?
Posted By: James Allen  |  16 Dec 2013   |  2:08 am GMT  |  242 comments

Mark Webber’s decision to quit Formula 1 at the end of this season brought to an end a seven-year association with Red Bull.

The Australian partnered Sebastian Vettel for his final five seasons, during which Vettel won the title four times and finished second once. During the same period, Webber managed three third place finishes in the standings, plus a fourth and sixth.

But how close was Webber to his more decorated team-mate?

Overall, Vettel had the edge in qualifying, outperforming Webber 77 times to 22. The German also had the more impressive pole record, with 44 to the Australian’s 13.

When it came to the races, Webber was closer in terms of points finishes, scoring 65 to Vettel’s 80, but he was comfortably beaten in terms of wins, with the German taking 38 to Webber’s nine.

In terms of retirements, they were pretty level over five years, with Vettel suffering nine DNFs to Webber’s 10, but when they did finish, Vettel was in front more often than not, reaching the chequered flag first on 57 occassions to Webber’s 19.

Webber scored around two thirds of Vettel’s total points, the Australian clocking up 947.5 to Vettel’s impressive 1410, and was beaten in each of the five years in the overall drivers’ standings by his younger team-mate.



Faster qualifying time: Vettel 77 / Webber 22

Poles: Vettel 44 / Webber 13

Front rows: Vettel 63 / Webber 34


Wins: Vettel 38 / Webber 9

Podiums: Vettel 61 / Webber 40

Points finishes: Vettel 80 / Webber 65 

DNFs: Vettel 9 / Webber 10
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 66 / Webber 27
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 57 / Webber 19


Points: Vettel 1410 / Webber 947.5
Seasons finished higher in standings: Vettel 5 / Webber 0
Highest championship placing: Vettel 1st (2010, 2011, 2012, 2013) / Webber 3rd (2010, 2011, 2013)

Their first season together – 2009 – was actually pretty close when it came to the races, with Vettel edging the wins tally four to two but both drivers scoring the same number of podiums – eight. Vettel edged the points finishes at 12 to 10 with the drivers finishing equal in the head-to-head when they both finished the race at six apiece.

But in qualifying, where Vettel seems to have had the edge, the German was dominant from the start, outqualifying Webber 17 times to two and achieving eight front row grid slots to Webber’s two.

2009 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 17 / Webber 2

Poles: Vettel 4 / Webber 1

Front rows: Vettel 8 / Webber 2


Wins: Vettel 4 / Webber 2

Podiums: Vettel 8 / Webber 8

Points finishes: Vettel 12 / Webber 10 

DNFs: Vettel 3 / Webber 2
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 8 / Webber 9
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 6 / Webber 6


Points: Vettel 84/ Webber 69.5
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 2nd / Webber 4rd

The following season – 2010 – was the one where Webber came closest to winning the championship during his whole career, and that is reflected in the stats.

Webber was much closer in qualifying, with Vettel outqualifying the Australian 12 times to seven and 10 poles to five, but they both managed to start on the front row 13 times.

In the races, Vettel edged the most wins tally with five to Webber’s four, but both drivers scored the same number of podiums – 10. Webber actually beat Vettel in terms of the number of points finishes – 17 to 15, but perhaps crucially, he lost the head-to-head when both drivers finished, with Vettel triumphing 10 times to five.

2010 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 12 / Webber 7

Poles: Vettel 10 / Webber 5

Front rows: Vettel 13 / Webber 13


Wins: Vettel 5 / Webber 4

Podiums: Vettel 10 / Webber 10

Points finishes: Vettel 15 / Webber 17
DNFs: Vettel 3 / Webber 2
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 11 / Webber 7
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 10 / Webber 5


Points: Vettel 256/ Webber 242
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 3rd

Vettel was the stronger qualifier once more in 2011, outqualifying Webber 16 times to three and scoring 15 poles to the Australian’s three.

In the races, he comfortably topped the win tally with 11 victories to Webber’s one, but they were level on points finishes with 18 apiece thanks to the ultra-reliable Red Bull. Vettel thrashed Webber in the head-to-head when both cars finished, triumphing 15 times to two.

2011 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 16 / Webber 3
Poles: Vettel 15 / Webber 3

Front rows: Vettel 18 / Webber 8


Wins: Vettel 11 / Webber 1

Podiums: Vettel 17 / Webber 10

Points finishes: Vettel 18 / Webber 18 

DNFs: Vettel 1 / Webber 1
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 16 / Webber 3
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 15 / Webber 2


Points: Vettel 392/ Webber 258
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 3rd

In terms of championship position, 2012 was Webber’s more disappointing year as the Australian finished sixth in the standings’ as Vettel went on to win his third title.

In qualifying, it was closer, with Vettel just edging Webber 12 to eight. In the races, the gap was slightly wider, with Vettel finishing ahead of Webber 11 times to six when both finished. They were close again on points finishes, with Vettel ahead 17 to 15, but crucially Vettel had more wins – five to two – and more podiums – 10 to four.

2012 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 12 / Webber 8

Poles: Vettel 6 / Webber 2

Front rows: Vettel 9 / Webber 6


Wins: Vettel 5 / Webber 2

Podiums: Vettel 10 / Webber 4

Points finishes: Vettel 17 / Webber 15 

DNFs: Vettel 1 / Webber 2
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 13 / Webber 7
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 11 / Webber 6


Points: Vettel 281/ Webber 179
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 6th

In Webber’s final season, Vettel had the edge in every department. In qualifying, he comfortably outpaced his team-mate 15 times to two, with the German claiming nine poles to Webber’s two – which came during a purple patch for the Australian in the final few races.

In the races, Vettel was brilliant, securing a record-equalling 13 wins as Webber – who had the win pinched off him by Vettel in Malaysia – failed to climb aboard the top step.

Vettel had double the number of podiums at 16 to Webber’s eight, and finished ahead every time both drivers finished a race (15 in total). That was the German’s most convincing performance in a season during their partnership.

As a result, Vettel finished with nearly double the number of points as Webber, who had more retirements in 2013, clocking up three to Vettel’s one.

2013 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 15 / Webber 2

Poles: Vettel 9 / Webber 2

Front rows: Vettel 15 / Webber 5


Wins: Vettel 13 / Webber 0

Podiums: Vettel 16 / Webber 8

Points finishes: Vettel 18 / Webber 15 

DNFs: Vettel 1 / Webber 3
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 18 / Webber 1
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 15 / Webber 0


Points: Vettel 397/ Webber 199
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 3rd

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What I want to know is how many times Mark had a problem he was mitigating (KERS related etc). IIRC, the weight distribution advantage Seb had was worth a tenth. I won't bother going into conspiracy stories but from what we have seen, the team favoured Seb.


Read Mark's post retirement interviews where he hails seb as the best driver in the grid...he has no reason to lie now that he has retired..has he? Enough with these conspiracy theories...With Mark's own admission, Seb is a better driver


What you must remember is the guy was beaten by Seb for 5 years- he's not going to say he was beaten by a nobody is he . Same as Felipe saying Fernando is the best....

Posters have to understand that F1 is. 90% politics & well maybe the other 10% is ego..Im just waiting for the day when someone just goes out & races and doesn't give a shit who thinks who is the best.. Oh but hang on.. He does have a name..


+1 Will be a sad day when he is no longer around


It would appear from the results that the team clearly made the right call about whom to back.

I'm willing to discuss the merrit of that choice with anyone who thinks RBR made a mistake.


At least acknowledge how sterling a job Seb has done over a period of 5 yrs.... ended Webber's career!



Next test for Vettel, WDC with a different #2. He names his cars, so he's a bit superstitious. What if Webber was Vettel's lucky charm?


To be honest Seb broke down in the lead several times, I don't think webber ever did. They did favour Vettel, they preferred him to win, but Mark always had an equal car to fight with. Whoever says he had a sabotaged car is talking rubbish


I'm pretty sure a guy with 10+ years experience in F1 can figure out how to get his car off the line...

Funny then, how whenever Webber was in a competitive grid slot, either near to or in front of Vettel; he seemed to have clutch issues and his KERS would either fail to boost his power output or it would fail to recharge. It's also funny how once he was out of contention for the win, or safely behind Vettel that his KERS would mysteriously start working again.

You do know that much of electronic equipment is not only monitored remotely, but can also be operated remotely as well?

It isn't rubbish, it's sabotage. It's sabotage when your team mate gets all the best parts, the best strategy, the best support by the team and you get screwed over. They had the same chassis, but Webber and Vettel drove two very different cars. To think otherwise is both ignorant and naive. This is Formula 1 and it's all about money and Vettel is the golden boy for more than one reason. He represents a gold mine in sponsorship deals for his team and the team owner Mr. Billionaire soft drink guy and unofficial team director dr. helmut marko know this and they are going to squeeze every bit of cash out of their top driver because he is one of their biggest if not the biggest brand image of their company. We're talking hundreds of millions pounds in various sponsorships, supplies, services, media and product. Vettel HAS to win. It's that simple. So of course the team is going to do what they can to ensure that happens. F1 is 90% politics and money.


Webber had 2 years head-start at RB to establish himself before vettel's arrival; if he couldn't the team to rally behind him as a leader in that time then he's got only himself to blame.


@Ryan. All teams favour the lead driver over the other. Its part of the business but instead of sabotaging their other Driver every weekend they can just bring in another driver to play second fiddle instead of screwing their driver and costing them Valuable points in the Championship trophy which is a huge amount

the WDC doesnt bring them any cash compensation.

This year there have been times when limited parts has been available to some teams including Lotus and Ferrari and hence the lead drivers have enjoyed an advantage with an upgrade without the press making any noice. The incident you were referring to in 2010, which if you did investigate further would show that Webber had initially rejected the new wing because he dint find it useful and he had preferred to stick with the old oen. It was only when he saw what extra speed Vettel could unlock that he changed his mind.

And like the other people have commented. If Webber knew his team was screwing him he had an option of leaving. Even Ferrari only confirmed Massa last year only after Webber refused to drive for them. Do you seriously think he would stick around at Redbull if he was being screwed???

And FYI Helmut doent run the team. Horner does but even then final decision lies with Dietrich Mateschitz the owner of Redbull. Who ones in while does exercise his authority over the team. Like in the case of choosing Ricardo over Kimi. Dietrich and Webber are good friends with Webber even partying with Dietrich on his personal yacht, a liberty which even Vettel doesnt enjoy. Webber and Horner are business partners and run a GP3 team together. So this entire business of Redbull being anti Webber is all BS. In fact there is only Helmut Marko who is pro Vettel. You must remember Vettel is the product of Redbull development programs, which Mr Marko runs If you had a trainer/mentor right from your junior career he will always support you its a natural human tendancy. Its happened in Mclaren too when Ron Denis refused to let Hamilton play second Fiddly to Alonso. After all Ron had overseen his career.

And sponsors would actually run away from Redbull if they knew they were sabotaging Webbers car. I worked in Marketing before. Trust me when i say you dont need that kind of publicity. As much as sponsors want their teams to win, They would prefer they dont dominate because when a team dominates the viewership goes down which impacts the visibility of the brand and the product being advertised Even Ron Denis has already confirmed this when Mclaren were so dominant in 1988 his sponsors asked him if he lose a few races so that people would come back and start watching races again. So none of your arguments are valid.


@Ryan: just apply your mind-bending logic a bit and tell us why an obviously good driver like Webber would not switch teams if he was being sabotaged at any point?


Find a site that has archived race reports. Pick seasons where Webber was with some other team or where he was at RBR but not with Vettel as a team mate. What you will find is that he was never a good starter, often losing places off the line. RBR didn't have to hold him back.


Ryan Webber's starts have never been good, even in the Jaguar days his starts were rubbish. You just don't notice it as much when it's in the midfield.


I do recognize that Vettel is one of the truly great drivers in the history of F1 and his talent and hard work is frankly astonishing to see. I never said anything about Vettel not being extremely talented. What I was talking about was from a management point of view, to maximize available opportunities for economic support, resources, research and development; it a decision was made to always keep Vettel in front. Sure, Red Bull want the second driver to very well... But Red Bull want their number one driver to always be number one because their entire program is based upon that necessity to have a young, smart, funny, good looking guy who's always smiling and winning as their product image. It's not a conspiracy, it's business. Jeez, people -look at Ferrari over the years(except next year -Alonso still getting his ear tweaked, lol.) This is how things go. The amount of money at stake, the amount of respect and adulation for the sponsors and their brand image and stocks at stake is massive. Why would a business like Mercedes Benz throw hundreds of millions of dollars at an F1 team? Is it because of love of sport? No, and it has next to nothing to do with research and development either, it's all brand image and seeing a return in their investment financially through their own products, their own fleet of vehicles. These are not "conspiracies", these are the facts of life in the world of Formula 1. It's the same reason why we have V6 Turbo's in 2014. An F1 engine revving to 15,000RPM, made with exotic materials and is as light as possible and meant to die immediately after it's targeted mileage has been reached has pretty much no real world application unless you're buying a hyper car -we all know that and we're not naive about THAT fact. But every car company wants to sell their cars with the best power, mileage and "clean" emissions possible(or at least to be seen that way), so they put on a show to make your average layman think that they've got something special. A company like Mercedes, Renault, Honda, etc. have had turbo's for decades and they've done all the necessary R&D for real world applications which is made from the cheapest parts with the longest life possible and good economy. They don't need to invest in F1 for any other reason other than marketing purposes. The tech simply does not translate to the real world. If I'm driving a regular, reasonably priced car with a turbo, and make of the car is also a sponsor of an F1 team; do I think my car has F1 technology? Hell no! You see, a guy like Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg, Button(but especially Vettel); is the shining example of what the car companies want to promote. A celebrity with world wide house hold name recognition: a name that sells to sponsors, to merchants, to customers. If I were the bosses of Red Bull or Renault(which owns Nissan, which owns Infiniti) I'd make damn sure Vettel is always on top too. Webber could have certainly done better this year and previous years. But it all comes down to money and politics. Vettel is the golden boy for a reason.


Yes 'he seemed to have clutch issues' because he didn't really know how to use one. Your theories are almost laughable, Webber even said his bad starts are down to him


You sir have a big problem and you are more of a conspiracy theorist than a fan of F1!

Even when webber says Vettel is the faster driver!


@Ryan: ...and am also sure that a guy with 10+ years of experience in F1 would be able to get drive with another team, if he was being actively discriminated against by RBR.

I'm truly amazed that people talk of MW being "sabotaged" by RBR as if he was under serfdom of RBR, right from 2009 onwards! Why would he/could he not shift to another team if that be the case? In a grid that has place for PDR, Sutil, PM etc, there was no place a near WDC? A someone who lost to a 4X WDC only because of active machinations of his employers? 4 years in running?

...but of course, it is easier to imagine sabotage than to accept SV is better driver. Something that even MW himself accepted towards the end!


Of course Formula 1 is about money... which is why Red Bull would never sabotage it's own drivers, as that would hurt their standings in the WCC... which is where the prize money in Formula 1 is paid out, NOT the Drivers Championship.

Any team principal that would so consistently sabotage half of it's teams ability to score WCC points to favor another driver would be insane. It'd be like lighting money on fire.

When people have opinions like this, it's very simply due to bias... either some sort of hatred of Vettel (or Red Bull in general) or love of Webber. At least it's obvious and their opinions on such things can then be discounted. 🙂


[mod] no, teams cannot remotely control anything. Vettel favoured? of course! why wouldn't you favour the driver who clearly is the best hope of winning. but thinking that any team is going to sabotage their number two driver is beyond ridiculous.


Webber is no slouch, and despite having 2 extra years at RB before SV came along, and in his prime, he still couldn't beat the new comer rookie.

It must be quite devastating to Mark on a personal level to have been beaten so thoroughly...


You think Webber is devastated by being soundly beaten by Vettel? Perhaps he is, if he truly lacks perspective. Fact is, there can only be one champion a year. That's why there are only 32 champions in 62 years of Formula 1. If being champion is the only thing that matters, then many great drivers have wasted their careers away, (although I doubt few would feel that way).

Vettel is a rare four time champion, and he happened to win all those championships while there were as many as five other former champions on the grid, some of whom are considered among the greatest drivers of all time.

In sporting terms Mark is what is commonly referred to in hockey as a "grinder", a journeyman athlete that gets by more on hard work and determination than skill or pure talent (that his twitter handle is "AussieGrit" is telling). And grind away in F1 for many years he did until Red Bull started making winning cars.

If Mark has any perspective I think he can be proud his hard work and determination got him to F1 in the first place, and then finally to a team where his valuable contributions helped turn it into one of the most dominating teams in history.

Maybe compared to Vettel his achievements seem a bit dull, but for the past five years or so he has not exactly been slumming it in the middle of the grid where some very, very good drivers would likely trade careers with Mark any day.


This. He may have been beaten by Seb, but he fought bloody hard - that is worthy of respect alone. @aussiegrit respect


I think his longevity in Formula 1 - not the most sentimental of sports - is an achievement in itself. The fact he held on to his Red Bull seat with one year contracts and held up Marko's young drivers programme for so long is something that shouldn't be underestimated.


Short answer - not very.


What's the common theory about why Vettel's results were that much better?

Age and reflexes?

Size and weight?

Team dynamics?

Hard work?...


Talent and rigorous preparation.

The late Ken Tyrell once said that if you walked up and down the grid and asked all the drivers "do you want to be champion" they'd all say yes and most of them would be lying. Tyrell went on to say that most of them don't want to put in the hard yards, the testing, the time spent with engineers, with tyre suppliers and so on understanding everything and figuring out where all the little advantages can be gained.

Vettel is such a driver. Pirelli's first year as a tyre supplier was in 2011. Only one driver went to the Pirelli factory to chat to the engineers there. His name is Sebastian Vettel. His preparation is meticulous. Like Senna and Schumacher before him he looks after every detail. Like Schumacher before him he doesn't go around complaining about his team in public, he is always supportive of the team.

Vettel maximises everything that comes his way. And he's got the sheer speed to make it all count.


Vettel has mastered driving the blown diffuser cars, which Mark never fully adapted to. In 2011, when the full impact of the diffuser started, Vettel dominated Webber. Prior to that, the impact was less. Webber is obviously one of the best drivers in the world, but the driving style is a little different (I would guess mid-corner the diffuser helps a lot, it would be awesome to see the relative telemetry of both drivers).


Listening to a recent BBC 5 Live podcast (Clive Woodward meets Christian Horner) Christian mentioned the difference in the driving styles between Vettel and Webber.

Mark is quicker through the fast corners than Seb. Seb is quicker through the slower corners than Mark.

Slower corners are longer and therefore that is where Seb gains a lot over Mark.

If you can put up with Woodwards lack of knowledge and fawning it's a very interesting podcast.


No EBD or coanda in 2008 and 2009 since 08 Vettel has scored the more points than anybody in a Toro Rosso or Redbull


As Phil pointed out, you forgot something. The answer is quite simple: Sebastian Vettel is a much better F1 driver than Mark Webber. The difference is huge, specially in the races. I find a parallelism between the Vettel-Webber and the Alonso-Massa comparisons. Webber has been closer than Massa overall (during the last four years) and he is older, so in that respect he did better. But Massa has had to drive much slower and more difficult to drive cars, so for me both have done a similar job during these past four years. I know in 2010 Webber was good, but you have to average with 2011 and 2013 specially, when he was absolutely horrible.


Buddy do a comparison test with team mates and you'll see a true comparison as they both have the same car and should be able to perform identically in the same machine.

Alonso vs Massa(4 years)

Alonso 11 wins massa 0(no contest)

Podiums Alonso 42 Massa 8(i.e Alonso is 5.25 on the podium for every one time Massa is on the podium).

Points 1029:496 or 2.07

Vettel Vs Webber

wins 38:9(4.2)

Podiums 62:40(1.55)

Points 1410:947.5(1.48)

Its clearly evident that Webber has been pushing Vettel twice more than Massa has been pushing Alonso


Third place in those championships can hardly be described so harshly as 'horrible'.


AGREE and I find it Amazing that an Old & heavier but 'Horrible' driver can beat Vettel on occassion !!No Mean feat around Monaco Twice.

Can't believe Red Bull extends contracts to 'horrible' drivers.

My view is Webber had a strong F1 career.


That's exactly the problem. You are forgetting to normalize to car performance. Collecting the amount of points Webber has, in that car, is a really poor result. The fact somebody has managed to be ahead of him with a car that almost belongs to other category, is telling that the difference with that particular driver is huge. Similar to the difference with his teammate.


Some of the posters forget the 09 season when Vettel joined RBR n was his first season with the team. Mark had his fav bridgestones but still seb beat him like 15-2 in quali n despite his inexperience beat Mark who was well set in the team n much more experienced.


You forget Seb drive a Newey designed chasis in the TR in 2008. With a very healthy F2008 Ferrari engine that all but one the championship with Felipe!- So the Red Bull team was not completely alien to him.But to his credit he worked hard and made the most if it and that's all you could say.


Agreed, but I was attempting to go deeper on what "talent" is.

Is it simply a matter of brain and body working better together for a common objective...


Pirelli adaptability. Plus a car built for his style with infinite money and built by the best.

Before that it was close in 2010 till Webber bottled it under championship lead pressure and Seb nailed it with a quick car and nothing to lose.


I can see you omitted '09 like it does not exist and that was his 1st year there all we hear from Hamilton and Alonso fans is they need the 1st year to adapt to the car, this does not apply to Vettel!


vettel had a year of experience in a newey car in '08.

why would Hamilton fans say he needs a year to adapt? lewis nearly won the title in his rookie year.

good point on his omitting '09 though.


Eh? In 2010, Vettel lost 38 points in the first two races of 2010 through mechanical failure. It was only unreliabity that let Webber anywhere near.


here. here.


Basically Pirelli tyres. Vettel just had better feel for them espescially in races on worn tyres.


vettel's ability to use the blown diffuser was the biggest reason for his superiority over webber


And he worked header and longer in the off season to understand them - at least before the 2011 season.


Strange, I was sure Webber had more DNFS, and in any case it certainly seemed like he had a hell of a lot more bad luck.

Still it's pretty clear. When Webber was asked in an interview a while back why Vettel wins more his immediate response was "he's faster".

BUT, there's one thing Webber can do that Vettel never has: Fly an F1 car. 🙂

p.s Good to see that in his first year with a decent car Webber ended up 4rd 🙂


He kept the engine from his last year at Jaguar.

Think about it. 😉


Just clicked. Well done 🙂


Thanks for this 5-year comparo! Bravo James Allen.

Just going through the stats it is clear that Webber could barely keep up with Vettel. In all his career, Webber was always the faster team-mate until Vettel's arrival.

Even the first year 2009, Vettel was already showing who is FASTER. As the years gone by, Webber who has already peaked in his capability gets beaten more and more by this young-gun who is still learning and improving.

It is mind-boggling to think that Vettel is only 26 years old. People who have lived past that age will know that the next 5-10 years, life will still get better and better. The best of Vettel is yet to come.

I am not saying that he will obliterate competition in the years to come and no one else will be champion as the sport is highly dependant of the car's performance too. Instead, he is a true legend with much more to offer and what many of us could imagine.

I mean watching Michael fought hard against Mika Hakkinen and the Williams drivers using his *crappy* Ferrari was impressive and extremely entertaining.


Though, stats suggest Vettle edged Mark both in qualifying as well as in races, and also suggest they have equal number of DNF.

What they fail to put an end to speculations that Red Bull designing cars suitable to Vettel's style of driving as well as his body dimensions,where Mark had to fit himself in. Also the stat does not indicate the compromised race finishes,where Mark had a compromised car, impairing him from achieving the best out of it. There is another factor these stat fails to point out, which is Webber miserable starts, which was a huge negetive all his life.

And 2010 Abu Dhabi will always be an integral part for Webber's F1 career, with lot of ifs.


The stats showed clearly even on the first year. Vettel was clearly ahead of Webber.

That evidence answers your question. The car was not designed for Vettel and still he was faster. So he is faster than Webber, Full Stop.


Vettel used to be dire of the line too, in 2009 and 2010, but he's worked to fix that. Webber has been terrible off the line throughout his _entire_ Formula 1 career.


Newey has stated several times that they followed the development path with the most potential, rather than to aid either driver. This is seen categorically in 2013, with Vettel choosing an 'older' setup in China.

As for the starts, Webber stated just a few weeks ago that they were his own fault.


What a shame Webber took up that second RBR seat for half a decade. He certainly can't say he didn't have opportunities, he had the best car for almost all 5 yrs of the past 5 year stint.

Not even Schumacher had such a privledge with the Ferrari years.

And to not even get a runner up spot, even once. I mean come on.



Fully agree. In 2011 and 2013 Webber waisted two of the best F1 cars of all times. I have not seen before a driver waisting such a car in that way. He is a nice guy, but 2011 and 2013 performances specially were a pain to watch.


So you're all saying it's the car? Seb didn't just beat Mark, he's anialated all of them! But you're saying if there had been a better driver in the 2 car, it would have been closer? Only 1 car can be on pole, and generally the gap between Seb and Mark in Q3 was only 0.2-0.3 of which we know 0.1 was due to weight distribution. The rest of the race performance gap is just clean air driving and tyre management. Anyone else in the 2 car would have had to contend with the same scenarios. The tyres now disallow wheel to wheel (talent) racing, and have resulted in unequal car performance for the front runner....(how many times did a front runner get caught and passed this year under normal racing conditions?). Anyone else would also have had to accept the second most optimal race strategy (no conspiracy- just fact- you can't pit them both in at once). To say the car was wasted on Mark is an insult to his clear racing ability, and his race craft and classic quotes have made the sport more entertaining for almost everybody. He's also bookended 4 constructors titles.


Sorry, I should have given names:

Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Raikkonen, Button, Hulkemberg, Grosjean, Perez, Massa, Ricciardo. These are 10 drivers that in their current form I'm quite sure would have done better both in 2011 and 2013. Not that sure in 2010 and 2012 though.


I'm not saying it's only the car. But yes, there are in my view more than 10 drivers on the grid who would have done better in the other Red Bull, specially in 2011 and 2013. I'm not saying Webber is not a talented racing driver. He is. But not for modern F1.

Alexander Supertramp

My thoughts exactly. The Red Bull dominance could have emulated Mclaren Honda in '88 with 2 amazing drivers. Imagine having '88 for 4 or 5 straight seasons. My guess is that less people would have complained about the lack of excitement..


88 for 4 or 5 seasons oh my god what a nightmare, I remember 88 and unless you were a Mclaren fan and I'm not it was a nightmare, if Honda had let Williams keep their engines then 88 would have been an epic battle but for me it was a bore fest at the front.


I agree. Imagine if Alonso or Hamilton had been Vettel's team mate. If Vettel had still won all those titles he would be respected a lot more than he is. He'd probably be respected a lot more even if he'd only won two.

It shows that although the car is very important, Vettel's talent is massive if benchmark Webber could not even finish second in any of those years.


Alonso's teammate for his two titles was Fisichella. Hamilton's teammate for his sole title was Kovalainen. (Both HK and GF were worse drivers than MW) Given the newly concocted requirement for a driver to win the WDC against another WDC in the same team to get "respect", why exactly are Alonso and Hamilton "respected"?


Wasn't Herbert quicker than Schumacher but Briatore wouldn't allow him to compete?



That's a very interesting counter point.

Hakkinen's was Coulthard.

Schumi's were Verstappen, Herbert and Barrichello.

Outside of 1988 epic season, Senna's were Berger.

Great point indeed. In general, why do people want to hold Vettel to a higher standard than the greats. They had only competent team mates in the main and also won their titles with one team in the main.


Exactly where did @DomJones say Alonso and Hamilton were "respected"?

Nowhere did he say it was a requirement to win a WDC with a WDC teammate to get respect.

You have invented an entirely fictitious subtext, against what to me, is a perfectly reasonable argument.


Frankly, he's not even in the Barrichello or Coulthard class when they were in their prime. At least they backed up their lead drivers and kept them on their toes.

Webber is, at best, on the same level as Irvine.


As always, stats only tell half the story. Webber was compromised in 2009 with the broken leg in the early season, but was often quicker than Vettel in the latter half of the year. The margin between the two was usually negligible.

2010 was Webber's best chance, with his old qualifying edge morphing into stronger race performances. Vettel was quick, but also had many rough edges that resulted in unnecessary retirements. Ultimately, the way that the team mis-managed the both of them wrangles debate to this day.

2011 saw the re-introduction of team orders following the debacle of the 2010 German GP, and I think by this point, Red Bull had their young champion to focus on: even in Marko's own words Webber was to play the supporting character. The introduction of Pirelli tyres also detracted from Webber's strong suit: supreme speed in the fast, aerodynamically critical sections that typically tore the Italian rubber apart.

I would be interested to see the whole thing play out again on Bridgestone or Michelin rubber, preferably with Webber in the form he had lost to the Jaguar and Williams years.


The stats sound about right, but to me the thing that they really don't show is that, on his day, Webber was better than Vettel. The problem being, of course, that his day was not all that often.

I think that many thought Vettel would destroy Webber from the outset, but it wasn't quite like that and I was pleasantly surprised by how close they were at times, especially in the first couple of years.

In the end, though, 18 wins to 2 for the past two years speaks for itself.


In the second half of 2009, Vettel outscored Webber 45-34, as opposed to 39-35.5 in the first half.

In 2010, Vettel was robbed of three wins by car failures. It was only these failures that allowed Webber a look in.


How dare you state those facts!!!


Webber is also compromised by his inability to start well

Tom Haythornthwaite

I'm much more of a Webber fan than a Vettel fan, but the fact that Webber never came second to Vettel in the championship (and was fourth to Vettel's second in 2009) does seem to say a lot. I must say Vettel is the brilliant one. But I'd prefer to have a beer and a chat with Webber any day of the year.


Their first season together – 2009 – was actually pretty close when it came to the races


Well, the situation at Red Bull got somewhat complex and I think the stats would have looked better in Webber's favour if not for a number of circumstances such as;

1) 2009 and 2010 were Webber's strongest seasons for back then we were using the Bridgestones and drivers like Webber didn't really get to grips with the Pirellis

2) The off throttle blowing of gases brought another headache for Webber and this is were Vettel really excelled and so Webber couldn't come close to his teammate in qualifying from then onwards.

3) Drivers like Webber i.e. Number 2 drivers - are mainly confidence drivers and so when he narrowly lost the title in 2010 (or perhaps he felt he wasn't getting the team's support especially in the last races) hence his confidence evaporated.

We saw the same thing after Malaysia 2013, Webber entered a depression and retirement mode and so didn't score a single win.

But all in all, the stats show Vettel has done an excellent job more so in qualifying because that used to be Webber's ace card.


You know what, the wonder kid is very difficult to understand but I have been thinking maybe the secret to Vettel's success lies in the number 4???

a) Vettel has one brother and 2 sisters

b) He won his first title in his 4th year (2010)

c) Vettel has never won a race from 4th or lower

d) In his first full season at Torro Rosso (2008), he had 4 consecutive DNFs at the start of the season and was the only driver not score a point.

e) He has been the qualifying king 4 out of the last 5 seasons

f) Webber was Vettel's 4th teammate

And so with Vettel's 4th title could it be the wonder kid bagged his last title???

If so, this would explain the donut celebrations in India.


And just when you thought stats couldn't get any more esoteric, he's back with a vengeance! 🙂


Honestly I can't believe people get off on that ....let's say stuff to keep moderator happy.. If you add this and divide by that, if you forget this and remember's devoid of any substance..Drives me mad. But hey if floats people boat good luck folks..


Hope he has to wait 4 years for his next 4 WDC


Hope he never wins another race. Hope the 2014 Red Bull is a 2013 McLaren. Hope Vettel leaves Red Bull, goes to another team and still doesn't win a race. May the universe be blessed with such an occurrence.

To be able to definitively say that it was Adrian Newey's Vettel-mobile that won him the championships would be oh so great.

False hope? Maybe. But hope I will. 🙂


Use your hope for good, not evil.


Alonso? Lewis? Yup...4 years sounds about right.


What happend in India? Vettel laid down 4 donuts...exactly?

And no...this is not his last WDC. Far from it. But I gather on your list to Santa you put this wish down?


@ Sebee

Yes I believe it was 4 donuts

And no my wishes to Santa are always wealth, health and happiness.


Wealth ahead of health? Someone has their priorities backwards. Busted!


4 donuts I believe 😉

Welcome back goferet.


@ Glennb

Thanks mate

Alexander Supertramp

hahaha, amazing stuff yet again :D.


Im sorry to say that but Webber was pretentious and liked whining... Not that I like Vettel, though. Once he tried to humiliate Coulthard on the podium, pouring champagne on his head, from the back, which was very childish of him...


I don't think that meant as a humiliation, I think that was Vettel just having fun and maybe trying to include Coulthard in the celebrations...but either way no, Coulthard was not impressed.


How about we show what Webber did to HIS team mates prior to Vettel. Webber ended careers. All the Vettel lovers forget this.


Ended careers?

Webber's team mates were...

1) Alex Yoong - signed to keep Minardi sponsors happy

2) Pizzonia - raced on after being paired with Webber

3) Christian Klien - raced on another four years after driving alongside Webber

4) Nick Heidfeld - drove another four years after partnering Webber at Williams. In 2005 he finished just 8 points off of Webber despite missing 5 races.

5) Nico Rosberg - still racing.

6) Coulthard - retired at end of 2008. He was 37 - same age Webber retired at.

7) Vettel - and we all know how this panned out.

Webber is not a rubbish F1 driver by any means, but too much of the hype about him is myth.


Alex Young. Justin Wilson. Antonio Pizzonia. I think.


The cream of the crop then..


?? And Vettel ended his


Mark retired by his own choice.


Vettel forced his hand!


His career was over long before he retired. After 2010, he was just a humiliated driver accepting a role to get enough pts to help Seb secure the WCC's. Massa's uselessness for Ferrari assiste that. Mark didn't have to do much. Just walk with a swagger, pretend he's hard done by and subtlety blame tyres, cutch, team, Seb, Marko, leg, set-up, wings etc. Good for the media, but facts remain Mark. They are above. There is no excuse. You got a half decade chance of the BEST car. You did nothing.


I'm a Webber fan, but I'm not entirely convinced it was his own choice.

I think he might have just been taking the option of a graceful exit.


Perhaps the writing was on the wall...


What a beating!!


Webber was good, but Vettel is simply on another level amount of "differential treatment", "car developed for SV", "deliberate sabotage(!!??)" etc etc can bridge over this fact.

Towards the end, even Webber himself acknowledged that...hope he enjoys Porsche better...Farewell my friend!!


But everyone will still [mod] webbers backside, its obvious vettel os the better driver, the stats prove it, maybe people will read them and give the guy a break!


emphatic, no other word does it justice.


Seems to me that Webber's woe was down to two principal reasons. Firstly his qualifying record. Front rows and poles have been key to most of Vettel's successes. Running in clear air is a major advantage and Vettel has made the most of it - Webber's lack of relative one lap pace really hurt him. Secondly I would also argue that Webber's starts haven't helped either. Perhaps someone like goferet can help, but Webber's overall positions gained versus positions lost off the line must be in the high negatives. Perhaps these issues came from Webber trying to recover what was lost in qualifying by getting a blistering start - trying too hard maybe? - whatever the reason, losing places at the start has hurt him in so many races as he fights to get back to where he started.

The 2 most memorable moments for me in Mark's Red bull career were:

1. crashing out in Korea whilst leading - had he won that we may well have seen a different champion in 2010.

2. getting upside down over Kovalainen in Valencia in the same year. memorable because it was a huge shunt but also the bearing it had on the outcome of the championship.

Good points finishes in those two races could have seen Mark come out on top that year and set him up for future success. Those two errors cost him dearly not just in 2010 but for the three subsequent years I feel as he became the clear no.2 driver (albeit not a bad one) at Red Bull.

Many other stand out moments - Silverstone win, fun in Turkey, Monaco celebrations - but not enough to outclass Vettel.


Webber was 2nd when he crashed, but I take your point.


I could be mischievous and say that I meant while he was leading the championship, but that would be lying. Thanks for pointing out my error!


@ aezy_doc

Sorry mate, can't help.

Haven't got those figures with me


Nice article James, no doubt Vettel is in a class of his own, just such a shame a talent like Webber's with what was a very impressive career in its own right, was overshadowed by Vettel.

He will be missed, not many characters like him in the F1 circus anymore.


Simply put vettel is the better driver


Wow mark got thrashed. Seeing it in statistical form in black and white makes it far worse. Good luck Daniel your going to need it!


Why is it that when the 2010 season is mentioned, no serious commentator (like yourself) mentions how the reason Webber was 'close' was because Vettel lost more than 63 points because of mechanical failures against Webber's around 15 points lost because of mechanical failures?

Webber had the least points lost because of mechanical failures from the top 8. Instead you all say Webber was so close to Vettel while racing him and almost beat him on track?

Fact is, 2010 in racing terms was anything but close. It was thanks to Vettel's car breaking down every other race that it looked like that but that never gets mentioned. No one claimed Vettel was being sabotaged by RBR though, strangely...

Same with Alonso/Hamilton whom both lost 2-3 times less points because of mechanical failures than Vettel that season.

I don't even think the backmarkers Virgin/Marussia/Lotus-caterham had as many mechanical failures that season as Vettel. It was comical to watch.


He arguably lost even more points if you include a cracked chassis in monaco and spain.


I agree, Vettel was the dominant driver that year and should have wrapped the title up earlier. However, it was hardly a flawless season, and Webber was certainly closer to Vettel that year than subsequent years.


Duder, spot on, i think this myself everytime 2010 is mentioned. I think it would be fair to say anyone else other than Alonso wouldn't have had the belief or abality to still win despite the mechanical failures.


That's a lot of stats, but this is a topic where the story is deeper.

In 2013 and probably 2012 Vettel was certainly stronger. Earlier I'm not sure it was so clear cut and no matter what anyone says Vettel absolutely benefited significantly from a preferential position in the team. If Red bull showed the same backing for Mark when he was leading the 2010 he would have won the championship.


Vettel broke down way more in 2010 than an other leading driver. Even in Korea, where Mark binned his car and Vettel simply broke down. Without these failures Vettel would have easily won. Having said that, if Webber hadn't crashed in Korea he would have been champion. I don't think he crashed because of the lack of backing



Correct. Mark got the opportunity. He binned it.

He's never won a championship,ever in his career, incl jr career. He can put in a good race in but he's not a true "winner" with the edge to take a title. Not even in Australian Formula Ford.


great comment!

been a MW fan forever and like everyone says "on his day" he runs with the best of them.

however, the best of them (Fernando, Vettel, Micheal, Alain, Ayrton) are ALWAYS "on their day".

i do respect Mark for clearing the "conspiracy" air by admitting that the starts are his own fault and that Seb is faster. a true sportsman like Mark is always circumspect enough to realize that in life there is ALWAYS someone better at doing WHATEVER it is you are doing. no matter what!

i thank Mark for all his wonderful years of being someone worth cheering for. i often read people writing that Mark is the guy they'd like to have a beer and a chat with. i myself, would like to have TEN BEERS with him and tear the roof off some town!

all the best MISTER MARK WEBBER!


That's why Webber rates Vettel with Alonso as the best two in F1 - which he made pretty clear recently, stating that he thought he (Mark) was as quick as the single time WDC.

Vettel has dominated their time together, and even in 2009 before any front wing or Turkey stuff, when Mark was the #1 and Seb was the up coming Rookie, Vettel still beat him in a season when Webber had less reliability issues.

It was 2009's perforamnce that set Vettel up really. To go into a new team as a young guy and beat someone who's spent the rest of his career in F1 as a #1, beating team mates, was pretty special, a feat that is very rare in F1. It'd be like Ricciardo rocking up and beating Vettel next year, or Magnusson beating Button.

It's hard to know if Marks performances dropped off from 2009 or if Vettel excelled (I suspect the latter). Conversely it's hard to know how good the cars were, with no Vettel RBR wouldn't have a drivers title and peoples perception of RBR having a dominante car could be completely different, we could be sat here saying how great Ferrari are - but again that could be Alonso not the car, or it could be Massa underperforming etc etc etc. Who knows, I think you have to go on instinct sometimes, and the guys who always rise to the top for the last 4 years are Alonso & Vettel - and that's why I, like Mark Webber, rate them as the best two in the sport by some margin.

Roll on 2014, minus the silly double points rule, and lets see who ends up where. There are loads of possibilities with it looking like a powertrain formula, potentially Merc might have the best engine, but Renault are great at mapping - but less reliable, Ferrari ? Apparently they've stolen a march on both of those, but who knows, then their is economy and reliability as well. I really hope that the powertrains end up equal-ish, I recall the BAR Honda having 60hp less than the Merc cars back in the day, and that's just as uninspiring as a Red Bull having 20pts more downforce than anything else - worse infact, because hp advantages just let you drive past on straights which even the most talentless driver can muster.


Please have a look at Turkey incident now 3 years later (available on youtube). There is also clip from Vettels car camera

Please evaluate Mark’s trajectory. And consider it from 2 perspective

a) teammate

b) competitor

And have a 3 questions

- what where Mark’s intentions keeping this racing line

- would other competitors from other teams keep same trajectory as Mark did under these circumstances

- could Mark make it to Turn AND LEAVE a space for Vettel required by rules assuming he would keep trajectory without collision.

I don’t want to say that Vettel is innocent. No – he should look in mirror and see that Mark is not going back to racing line. But if you have been on race track you know that in these circumstances Mark went purposely on collision course and he wouldn’t dare to do this to any other driver than he’s teammate… So – Vettel didn’t check the mirrors but Mark was on this position on racing track against all common sense and logic. Intended to collide. Purposely. Doesn’t make Vettel less guilty for not checking mirrors and causing collision. Assuming Vettel checking mirrors properly both would not make it to corner and would go straight from turn…

That’s my analysis based on my practice and personal racing experience.


"Conversely it’s hard to know how good the cars were, with no Vettel RBR wouldn’t have a drivers title"

Not necessarily. Bear in mind without Vettel Webber (or another driver faster than Webber) would have gotten a lot more points, including wins from all the RBR 1-2s over the years. I think Mark could well have won in 2010 if Vettel wasn't there, probably not in any of the other years though.


webber the journeyman doesn't compare very well with the youngest ever 4 time back to back to back to back reigning champion. only if vettel partnered another world champion like button and beat button as well as he did webber. then we'll be talking.


Not Button, he's on the same page as webber. Alonso Lewis or Kimi more like


button is the 2009 f1 champ and he will see off webber massa and co.


He's no journeyman driver. He drove for 4 teams which is standard for most drivers who race for over a decade. Hulkenberg (although he is very talented) fits the actual description of a journeyman driver.


the only driver in a car capable of winning and not winning a single race in a 19 race season and not winning a single race is mark webber the journeyman. check out what schumacher had to say about him.


Not if it's Button. From reading the posts on this site and others I think Button isn't regarded as a top level driver. He is consistent and good on his day (as was Mark), but until Raikkonen or Alonso (and dare I say Hamilton?- probably gonna get shot down for that) get in the car on the other side of the garage, we will never know how great Vettel truly is.


aezy_doc, When was the last time Hamilton or Alonso or Michel won a WDC with another WDC as their team mates. Micheal had Rubens, Hamilton had Hiekki and Alonso had Giancarlo Fisichella, Webber is at least much better than both Hiekki and Fisichella.

Check out their stats against their teammates as its the best judge of how well they are doing as they are in the same car. And lets face it they are much worse than that of Vettel vs Webber.


Alonso VS Fisichella(FA:GF)

Wins:- (FA:GF) 7:1

Podiums:(FA:GF) 29:8

Hamilton VS Heikki(LH:HK)

Wins:- (Ha:He) 7:1

Podiums:-(Ha:He) 15:3 or 5:1

Micheal Vs Rubens(MS:RB)

Wins:- (MS:RB) 49:90 or 5.44

Podiums:-(MS:RB) 72:55 or 1.30

Vettel Vs Webber(SV:MW)

Wins:- (SV:MW) 38:90 or 4.22

Podiums:-(SV:MW) 61:40 or 1.52

Clearly without a doubt Webber is a much stronger teammate compared to the other two and slightly better than Rubens when it comes to race wins and a little down on him when it come to podiums. So for anyone claiming

that Webber was a lousy no 2 driver or that Vettel needs to prove anything just remember Webber did beat Rosberg and He was more of a challenge to Vettel as his teammate than either Fichicella or Heikki were to Alonso or Hamilton respectively. Or in other words Alonso and Hamilton never faced any real challenge from their teammates when they won their WDC


I don't disagree with this at all. I am not alone however in regarding Vettel highly but wanting to see his teammate to be one of the very very very best too. Neither Webber nor Button are regarded in that category. This is why people are excited to see Alonso and Raikkonen together - two of the very best drivers in the same car. The winner of that battle will have their reputation enhanced. I would like to see Vettel tested further against a higher quality team mate.


And how precisely do you "know" that Raikkonen, Alonso, or (dare you say) Hamilton are "great" and a suitable yardstick for measuring Vettel ... who has as many WDC's as those three combined and yet is supposedly surrounded by question marks!

It's like saying we won't know if Messi is any good until he plays alongside Gerrard or Lampard.


Can't quite see your analogy there.

Messi plays alongside and against world class players all the time and unless my eyes deceive me he uses the same ball as them.

On top of that it is almost universally excepted by pundits and public that he is the best in the world, bar maybe Ronaldo.

Vettel is obviously an outstanding talent, maybe the best of his generation, maybe of all time.

But....there is still some way to go....he will eventually get a better teammate or a worse car.....if he is the real deal you have nothing to fear and he will prevail.....however we are not there yet.


I don't "know" whether Raikkonen, Alonso or anyone else is "great" - it's subjective. Vettel is a fantastic driver, the best of the current crop I would argue. Who would you have as a yardstick?

Vettel isn't supposedly surrounded by question marks, he actually IS surrounded by question marks. Until he has someone capable of challenging from the opposite side of the garage there will always be question marks. Webber didn't really challenge. I think Button may have gotten a tad closer. Of the current drivers I would say that the three I mentioned are regarded as the drivers most able to challenge in one way or another.


whenever button has been in a car capable of winning he at least won one race, webber didn't win a single race in 2013. in my books, he is a journeyman of a driver. he went as far as being annoyed when his teammate refused to gift him a win.


Fair point, Button may have the edge on Webber.


Destroyed like most of Shumacher's ex team-mates? No.

Well-beaten? I'd say yes, more so in recent seasons. Lucky he did decide to leave now, lest Seb would have really destroyed him in 2014 I feel, the rate he is improving at the moment.

Nevertheless Webber was consistantly well up near the top of the second tier of drivers.

OK here's an interesting question - if we put Button also near the top of the second driver tier list - how would Webber compare to against Button?

I'll try not to sit on the fence and I'll go for Webber omly slightly. Despite Button having a WDC I'd stay Webber has been the more solid and consitant driver out of the two of them over their respective careers.

All in all, a solid F1 career. He never quite made the jump to the A list but a career most of us would have taken.


button has won when the car is good enough to win but webber didn't win a single race in 2013 while his teammate won 9.


Button is much more consistent than Webber. A big margin there in my view. And almost certainly outright faster also, although not by much I would say.


i agree with you completely button is a world champion because he is good enough to be a world champion and webber is not a world champion because he isn't good enough to be a world champion. when the car is good enough to win, he won at least one race in that season.


Button had Barrichello for a teammate, Webber had Vettel.

But sure, apart from that tiny little detail your analogy is spot on!


Button is a touch more consistent than Webber, but also quite a bit slower.


Both Button and Webber were handed a world championship yet only 1 of them had the ability to collect it.


Difference of course is that Button had to beat Barrichello to the championship, not Vettel.


Numbers realy don't lie. When Vettel joined Red Bull, Webber was considered as possible future world champion, he was probably considered as faster than Button.

But the fact is that Webber didn't even manage to finish one season on 2nd place and I wonder what that means:

A) Red Bull was not SO dominant car after all

B) Webber was not good enough


If you take Vettel out of the equation, it would still be clear Webber was not using the speed he and his car were capable of: doing horrible starts, doing worse tyre management than most other drivers, doing a subpar job in the rain (compared to his dry performances, and knowing the Red Bull is super fast getting heat into the tyres), going unusually slow in several circuits as Singapore, etc.

You don't need Vettel to see the potential of the Red Bull, and to see Webber shortcomings.


Webber used to be one of the best wet weather drivers I felt, at least back when the cars were permitted to drive in full wet conditions, he always managed to pop up near the front of the field regardless of whether the car should have been there or not (think Fuji 2007; he and Vettel both lead the race at one point, and they ran 2nd and 3rd until the safety car incident).

That said he hasn't been great in this department for a while, perhaps his lack of feel on Pirelli rubber killed his wet weather speed?


Lets ask the BIG questions, how much was it favouritism to get him to subdue and break his spirit, how much was it technical advantage to set up the car the way Vettel favours, how much was it that the strategy was always to be against Webber?

Vettel is better but not that much, the only way for him to be really proven like all the greats is to sit beside another one!


vettel is so much better than webber that he won all the races won by redbull in 2013 and webber won none.


When was the last time someone won a WDC with a world champion as this teammate?. in the last 14 years Micheal won with Barrichello Alonso won this 2 WDC with Fisichella. Kimi with Massa Hamilton with Heikki Kovalanien. I mean when Hamilton and Alonso get due credit as WDC drivers why cant Vettel deserve the same respect. After all neither Micheal, Alonso, Hamilton, or Kimi have had a real class A driver as their team mates when they won their WDC's. Hence Vettel has nothing more to prove to anyone


You see the thing is, Vettel earned all of those advantages by being, well, just better in the first place. Any team wants to win - whichever driver has the best potential to win gets the backing. It's just the way it is.


Most of the "greats" never sat alongside another "great". Yet somehow their "greatness" is not questioned.

The list of "greatest" F1 drivers typically includes the following, in various different orders. Senna, Fangio, Schumacher, Stewart, Clark, and Prost.

Of those only two competed against another champion in the same car - Senna (vs Prost) and Prost (vs Lauda and Senna).

Alonso has yet to have another "great" in the same car as he has. It's actually a rather rare occurrence in F1 to see two "greats" in the same team at the same time.


Re:top level #2 drivers in the past - Fangio had Moss as his team-mate with Mercedes and most would grant that Moss was one of the best at the time. In the first year of the Cosworth DFV at Lotus I think Clark and Hill were the drivers iirc.


That's a good point. In the history of the sport how many 1,2 championship finishes have there been from the same team? I'd guess not many. A lot of posters seem to think the car was wasted on Mark because the gap should have been smaller- he finished 3rd 3 times. But is a 1,2 really practical from a strategy perspective? Would a team want a 1,2 finish in the drivers title?


that's why next year at Ferrari is going to be so much fun to watch!!


Oh well when another great like him comes up he would seat an race along side for now nobody on that grid comes close!


There was a bloke in 2012 that came close, and he was riding a donkey.


Operating word came close, he's going the way of Hamilton where the talk is always about his 2007 season.

Not what he's currently doing I still maintain the press spun the story towards Alonso saying he's performing miracles because of Massa.


Doesn't make nice reading, Vettel hammered Webber.

True story.


mmm... not too bad for a number 2 driver.


webber should have been the test driver at red bull because he wasn't good enough to be a number 2 driver.


Did he steal your girlfriend?

I can't recall as much negative comment from one poster in a single thread on this site, and I have not got to the end yet.


why would he want to steal my girlfriend?

i have nothing against webber i am only comparing his performance against other drivers and i don't think that is not allowed.


Actually it's pretty bad for even a No2.

Barrichello and Coulthard would have done a lot better overall.

Reading back, it's a shock RBR kept him on really.

He's damn lucky he's got those 9 GP wins frankly. Having near 100 races of the absolute (or near absolute) best equipment and having 9 wins is pretty terrible. Not even double figures in 5 years.



Actually, upon reading the stats my first reaction was he was closer to Vettel than I thought!

Mark is a very decent F1 driver. He just came up against an all time legend at the peak of his powers.

His performance is equivalent to what Berger did against Senna, or Rubens did against Schumacher in my view.


berger and barrichello won races when their cars were good enough to win, webber didn't win a single race in 2013.


Thats because Vettel did not make a single mistake.

Look at it this way Webber beat Vettel twice in qualifying and both times he had to take pole position to beat him, that is the level at which Vettel was operating this season gone by.


"Actually, upon reading the stats my first reaction was he was closer to Vettel than I thought!"

What?! Wow... Considering the data shows light years separate them, I shudder to think what you must have thought the gap was!

That one of the biggest teammate dominations at the front end of the field in history. It makes Barrichello's Ferrari time and Coulthard's McLaren time look good.


Thanks for another excellent report. I don't recall it personally, but a friend mentioned that at SIlverstone in 2009 or '10, when RBR took the only new front wing (after Vettel's was damaged) off Webber's car prior to the race, that Webber was actually a bit ahead on season points at the time. Is that true? If so, it would certainly indicate the environment they worked in. Also, the driver weight differential is worth more that a tenth according to all published data. But the bottom line must be that Vettel has matured greatly, and is truly exceptionally quick, if integrity-challenged.


You remember incorrectly. OR - actually - your friend does! Webber said to team that he doesn't feel the difference between new and old wing and said that he doesn't need it. Vettel said that he feels new wing better. Therefore new wing was given to Vettel. Afterwards Webber "forgot" this and started to play with media and fans who took this bite and chew it till today... bon appetite! Webber is GREATEST manipulator in F1. Far greater than spaniard!


If you research further you'll find that Mark dint intend to race with that wing. But at the same time he dint want Vettel to use that wing because he knew that Wing

An unnamed 'senior engineer' at Red Bull said that Mark Webber did not find the new front wing any more effective than the old one and only wanted it back when there was one left.

The team official confessed he was surprised that Webber made a commotion when team-mate Sebastian Vettel was given his new-specification wing prior to qualifying for the British Grand prix.

"Throughout the period when he used the new wing, he complained that it did not work any better than the old one," the engineer told Finland's Turun Sanomat.

"Mark simply did not get a good feeling with it, but when there was only one left, Mark absolutely wanted to have it. He did not care about it at all when we still had two new wings."

The engineer added that Vettel 'immediately liked' the new wing when he ran it in practice.

"We believe that the team management's decision was well-reasoned and logical."


I lost a lot of respect for MW for that childish behaviour. That combined with his whining to the (british) press afterwards that he had been hard done by. The facts clearly show MW was in that instance manipulative and only relating half truths.


Sorry, 115-103


Before Silverstone 2010 Vettel was ahead of Webber on points 113-103.


I'd rank Webber alongside Massa (pre-crash) and Button as a very good driver who could, if the cards fell the right way, have ended up with a WDC. He had the bad luck to end up with Vettel for a teammate. As he put it, "In some ways I feel like Gerhard Berger with Ayrton Senna – Gerhard was also a great racer, but not enough for the title."

The fact that Vettel beat him so comprehensively even in their first year together should make it clear to even the most blinkered that the 4x champ is a once in a generation talent.


massa attracted the farrari to sign him for a very long time. which of the top teams would sign webber? webber was at red bull before newey joined red bull.


Ferrari approached Webber for 2012 he said no!


nearly is not good enough.


"I’d rank Webber alongside Massa (pre-crash)".

Given that the differences between Alonso-Massa and Vettel-Webber are comparable, I'm sure the fact Massa is now a much worse driver than "pre-crash", and hence considerably worse than Webber, is the evidence you use to rate Vettel in a level of his own, and certainly a level above Fernando Alonso.

At the end, all your faith in Vettel is linked to a supposition on the physical impact that an accident did to a driver, to the point he is no longer the same. A supposition that goes against what doctors say, who are the only ones who can give an empirical corroboration, and in fact have said that Massa's physical capabilities are absolutely intact.

Certainly, your faith in Vettel being a unique human being is hanging by a thread.


Yoga my comparison is not between two drivers driving different cars. Its between teammates. What i was trying to show you was the difference between drivers driving the same car. While all drivers arent equal a team would like to have a barometer to judge the performance of one driver to his teammate. If Alonso can win 11 times in 4 years in Ferrari than Massa should have had at least 2.6 wins or say for brevity at least 2 to 3 wins to be compared as an equal to Webber. and the same goes for podiums comparison too.

Lets make a simple point table that cuts out the anomalies of the current point system just for analysis. We will reward points in this order 1st place gets 10 place 2nd place gets 9 3rd place get 8 and so on ...... to 1 point for the 10th place and compare where these 4 drivers stand without looking at podiums or victories. This way the extra 7 point you get finishing first is taken out as it distorts the comparison between teammates.

2010 Season

Average Position Finished

Vettel 3.62, Webber 4,

Alonso 3.83, Massa 7.11.

Points awarded for analysis(10 for 1st 9 for 2nd...).

Vettel 122, Webber 119( i.e he scored 97.54% of Vettels points)

Alonso 121, Massa 82,(67.78%)

Actual Official Points

Vettel 256, Webber 242(94.53%)

Alonso 252, Massa 144 (57.14%)


Average finishing position

Vettel 1.5, Webber 3.33,

Alonso 3.44, Massa 6.37.

Points awarded for analysis.

Vettel 170 Webber 138(81.17%)

Alonso 136 Massa 74(54.41%)

Offical Points scored

Vettel 392, Webber 258(65.81%)

Alonso 257, Massa 118 (45.91%)


Average finishing position

Vettel 3.44 Webber 5.35

Alonso 3.27 Massa 8

Point scored for Analysis

Vettel 136, Webber 96(70.58%)

Alonso 139, Massa 66(47.48%)

Official Points

Vettel 281, Webber 178(63.70%)

Alonso 278, Massa 122(43.88%)


Average finishing position

Vettel 1.61 Webber 3.8

Alonso 4.05 Massa 7.17

Points awarded for analysis

Vettel 169 Webber 108(63.90%)

Alonso 125 Massa 66 (56%)

Offical Points Scored

Vettel 397, Webber 199(50.12%)

Alonso 242, Massa 112(46.28%)

The average position for the last four years for Vettel is 2.54 vs 4.12 for Webber. While it is 3.64 for Alonso and 7.16 for Massa. Remember we are only comparing teammates. Even you compare the averages of the points you'll find a similar outcome.

I dont assume Massa is a worst driver now than 2007 or 2008. What i am implying is that compared to his TEAMMATEs his performance has dipped after his crash. Let me reiterate this isnt about the speed or performance of the Ferrari in relationship to any other car on the tract. This is just a comparison between teammates. And my arguments arent flawed as i have based them on stats and not my own opinion.

Massa has to say he is 100% fit or his racing career will be over. No team would hire a damaged driver. The difference between Massa before his crash and now is in his lack of consistency. If you watch his laptimes in relationship to Alonso, you'll see that as the race progress he keeps falling behind. That is why last year Webber was approached by Ferrari to replace Massa. They needed a stronger 2nd Driver to being in points and occasionally push Alonso so that he would raise his game. If Webber was really equal to Massa and no better. Ferrari wouldnt have approached him.

Secondly there is a learning curve in f1 that incorporate both speed and consistency it doesnt keep going up each year. It take a good driver 3 to 6 races to find his rhythm and speed(a little more now because of testing limitations). Its the consistency that improves over the years but that too has a peak. It will stay there will stay there or fall as the driver ages. i.e Micheal Schumacher in his second coming he lost lot of points crashing into other cars and making a lot of silly mistakes. If there was no peak level than drivers would keep getting better and better each year. Imagine Alonso or Webber would have been more than a second faster than their respective less experienced teammates. Which isnt true. Similarly when People say Vettel will only get better as he ages, it not true. I believe he has already peaked like Kimi and Alonso. What is important is how long Vettel can stay at the top. I mean remaining at top doesnt imply winning races or WDC its means extracting the max from what's at his disposal without losing motivation and losing consistency.

FYI last years Ferrari was a lot like this years lotus it dint have one lap speed which hindered it during qualification but over a race distance it was lethal. That along with the best starting/clutch system made it the best race car on sunday(OVER THE SEASON). If you watch any of the races of last year again, you'll see that both cars picking up other cars who had qualified above them. All those cars including the Redbull seemed to start running out of grip before the Ferrai.

"the difference between a great driver and a good one increases the worse is the car they are driving" If a car and a driver end up second in the championship then the car isnt as bad as people imagined or are lead to believe. If Alonso was indeed so good that he could pull of miracles in a bad car than he would have surely won or finished higher in any of these championship 2008(5th), 2009(9th), 2011(4th) championships. If Ferrari and Alonso have finished 2nd in 2010, 2012 and 2013 it means their car was capable of finishing 2nd. Same way Vettel too is as good as his car lets him be and the same could be said about all the other Champions.

Great drivers maximize the opportunities available to them. Yet some time great drivers let themselves down. In 2006 if Micheal Schumacher hadnt picked up a penalty for parked his Ferrari to disrupt qualifying in Monaco he might have been closer to becoming the WDC in that year instead of Alonso. Similarly if Alonso hadnt picked up a penalty for ruining Hamilton's qualification in Hungary in 2007. He would have definitely finished in 2nd instead of 4th and picked up 3 more points to become the WDC that year. But these if's and buts dont change History. Vettel is 4 times WDC because he was in a dominant car just like Alonso, Hamilton Kimi and the rest before them. But these guys still have to fight for the championship and grab every opportunity that comes their way. People just assume that either Perez or Hulkenberg would win 4 WDC in the Redbull. What one doesnt assume is the consistency, focus and adaptability needed to archive that. If any other driver could manage the Pirelli tyres as well as Vettel or adopt their driving style to exploit the blown diffuser as much as Vettel has is pure speculation. Next year both Alonso and Vettel will have new challenges both from a technical Perspective and both from their new Teammates. It will be really exciting enlightening to see how the season pans out. Cheers


"That car was capable of finishing second ONLY in Alonso’s hands. Whoever thinks any other driver would have been able to fight against Red Bull-Vettel in those Ferraris, is lying to himself."

It wouldn't have beaten Vettel/Red Bull in the 2nd half of the season, but let's not pretend the car was a Force India. And Vettel would have done better in points, especially in the first half of the year.


You are right, the points comparison really tells something. I agree on that.

"That along with the best starting/clutch system made it the best race car on sunday"

Not even close to being the best, sorry.

"If a car and a driver end up second in the championship then the car isnt as bad as people imagined or are lead to believe"

"If Ferrari and Alonso have finished 2nd in 2010, 2012 and 2013 it means their car was capable of finishing 2nd"

That car was capable of finishing second ONLY in Alonso's hands. Whoever thinks any other driver would have been able to fight against Red Bull-Vettel in those Ferraris, is lying to himself.

But reading this last post of yours, I think overall we agree. Let's see how next year pans out. But I can already tell you what I think: Alonso is going to destroy Kimi. You might desagree, but in 12 months we will know if I was right. I am sure about it, but if I am wrong I will have no problem to aknowledge it!


Only next year we will definitely know if Massa was any different from pre crash to post crash. When Kimi and Alonso are in the same car.

One thing we know for sure is that after his crash his results havent been as consistent as before his crash. While Alonso has won 11 times partnering Massa. Massa has no victories. And more importantly while Alonso has had had 42 podiums in their years together Massa has finished on the podium only 8 times. Compare that to his pre crash tally of 11 wins and 28 podiums in the same period definitely. Remember we are comparing drivers in the same car so you get a better comparison . In the two years he partnered Kimi he had 9 wins to kimi's 8 and 20 podiums to kimi's 21. It doesnt take a genius to figure out that Massa was no where near his limit as he was before his crash.

In fact compare the above ratios of 11:0 and 42:8(21:4) to Vettel and Webbers win and podium finishes ratio for the same period. Its 38:9 for wins and 53:32 for Podiums. While Alonos has 5.25 podiums for every podium Massa has. Vettel only has 1.65 podiums extra for each one March has. For that matter Kimi had only 1.05 podiums extra for every podium Massa had. Kimi cant be that bad can he?

If Webber was so bad He wouldnt have been Ferrari's first choice for 2013(they do know what they are doing and wouldnt sign an idiot) And Mark Webber has beaten Rosberg as his teammate(Those days rookies had 3 to 5 times mileage the experience drivers get due to unlimited testing and were up to speed very fast it was very evident by Rosberg Setting the fastest lap of the race in his very first race and from Hamilton nearly winning the WDC in the subsequent year) And Webber was about 1/10 faster than Rosberg who is around 1/10 slower than Hamilton. Thus Hamilton and Webber would be evenly matched. Hamilton and Alonso were evenly matched with Hamilton faster over one lap and Alonso more consistent over the races. Vettel has a 2/10 advantage over Webber. Even if you take that 2/10th away he would be easily able to match Hamilton over a lap and more importantly be consistent enough to match Alonso over a race distance.


I'll try to explain this, let's see if I do it properly. You can not base yor argumentation on a comparison on podium finishes and wins between two drivers driving a Red Bull and two drivers driving a Ferrari. It is not a good comparison. As an example:

Webber finishes two places behind Vettel. Vettel wins the race comfortably in the fastest car. Both of them get the same number of podiums: 1-1. Massa finishes also two places behind Alonso. Alonso finishes second behind Vettel, with the second fastest car. Alonso gets a podium finish while Massa doesn't: 1-0. Reading the final podium score, you could think Webber did a better job than Massa, as he has the same number of podiums finishes than Vettel, while Massa has one less than Alonso. But the truth is that both Webber and Massa finished 2 places behind their teammates.

You can not count on wins and podium comparisons between drivers within two teams, if there exist a difference on performance between the two teams (quite big in the Red Bull and Ferrari case).

On the Massa vs Kimi and Massa vs Alonso, we will see next year what is the difference between Kimi and Alonso and then talk. But there is something you should not forget: the difference between a great driver and a good one increases the worse is the car they are driving. The 2007 and 2008 Ferraris were on another level compared to those Ferraris of the past few years. This also applies to the Vettel-Webber comparison: the difference between the two should be smaller driving a Red Bull than if they were driving a Ferrari.

Then on a last note, you assume Massa is a worse driver now than in 2007 and 2008. But on the other hand you assume Rosberg, Hamilton, Webber and Alonso are exactly the same drivers as they were 7 years ago, to a precision of less than a tenth of a second. Ah yes, Massa had an accident and the others not, but then again you are basing your argumentation on a medical aspect, so then you should go and ask the doctors. Sorry but your arguments are flawed.

Alexander supertramp

Heard the jury is still out on the whole `once in a generation talent`. But yeah,he definitely had the upper hand against mark..


Depends on who you think "the jury" is composed of. Current and former F1 drivers are not on the fence. OTOH, Hamilton fans will never be persuaded.


Favoritism or not there could be no doubt that Vettel was faster. Waiting to see if Daniel will manage to get even that close to Vettel.

Some say (e.g. Gary Anderson that Vettel was faster because he managed to get more benefit from the exhaust blowing with the way he drives, particularly at low speeds. The new exhaust regulations should give Ricciardo some chance.


I would dearly love to see how Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi would stack up against Vettel in the same car.

Shame Red Bull didn't get more agressive with their driver choice for '14.

Up until this year I was convinced Hamilton or Alonso were the best two drivers (with Vettel slightly flattered by his car), but 2013 has won me over. The kid is different class.


Surprised you say Vet was slightly flattered by his car up until 2013, then you are won over. That is considering in 2013 Sebs car is different class altogether.

Certainly Vet was excellent in 2013. If anything, 2013 is the hardest year yet to attempt to compare Vet, Ham and Alo.

The second half of 2013 was a joke - Newey using the tyre change to make a joke of the other engineers - and as Schuey showed in 04, it's a lot easier when your car can pole, race away, then cruise for the majority of the race in clean air without interacting with many other cars.


Agree. People are won over by Vettel by two facts: amazing consistency and his comparison with Webber (also numbers are hard to ignore and are not put in the proper context by the majority of the people). The consistency thing is a real signature of him being very good and professional, but not that much of his pure skills and talent. These last two things have to be measured against other drivers, and the only possible comparison in 2013 is Webber.

A driver has to be judged under real challenge. That did not exist in 2011 and 2013, and interestingly those are Vettel best years...


"A driver has to be judged under real challenge. That did not exist in 2011 and 2013, and interestingly those are Vettel best years…"

Depends. He was challenged hugely in 2010 (as the youngest of 5 championship contenders, and having the most unreliability and misfortune), and in 2012 (with the pressure or some people more or less lying that his car was dominant, to diminish his driving). Became champion in both years.


Come on... You really believe Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi is that good?


Yes it would be very close and I believe would go down to the wire. They are vastly superior to webber, and they can all start an F1 car properly. Vettel is very good no doubt about it. The Red Bull the way Vettel was driving it made him look like an Alien, way ahead of everyone. His technique in the corners meant he could stamp on the throttle earlier than anyone, which is credit to him, Webber couldn't do it. But on absolute raw pace he isn't ahead of Kimi or Ham. I could see him having the edge in quali but I could also imagine Kimi reeling him in during races. Raikkonen and Hamiltons technique in corners is very similar to how vettel was driving the Red Bull so I think it would be very close. Shame they picked Ricciardo instead of Kimi


"Unlike what you said. Vettel has a vastly different style to Hamilton. While Hamilton is very late on his brakes. Vettel is quicker on the throttle. I.e they are just the opposite in their driving styles."

Why does that mean their styles are opposite?! Of course drivers will adapt there style to different cars, but there natural style will remain the same. Vettel is also very late on the brakes, Brundle often points out. Vettel is seemingly very early on the throttle this season because of the clever exhaust and the way he manipulates the car round on the brakes so he can stamp on the throttle. There styles are similar, with Kimi also. All these 3 drivers like to brake late, swing the car round so they can shorten the corner and pick up the throttle earlier. Webber can't drive this way hence the huge performance gulf between him and Vettel. An opposite driving style to these 3 would be Button, who is slower into a corner but carries more speed through it. His line is longer however, as he doesn't manipulate the car on the brakes. So he carries more speed than say Kimi but Kimi is in the corner for less time because he shortens it whereas Button makes it go on longer.


Unlike what you said. Vettel has a vastly different style to Hamilton. While Hamilton is very late on his brakes. Vettel is quicker on the throttle. I.e they are just the opposite in their driving styles. And You wouldnt see Vettel's true pace in most races because he would be driving to a Delta and his team would be after him to slow down. Whenever they asked him to show his pace he would up his pace and increase his margin over the rest leaving every one astonished so much so that Hamilton who saw the replay of Vettel's lap said the only way he could get on the throttle so early is if he had throttle control(which he wouldnt have said if his style was similar to Vettels).

The top skills of an F1 driver are adaptability, Speed, Focus and Consistency.

Vettel and Alonso are the most adaptable drivers. Both Kimi and Hamilton suffered getting used to their new teams.(Kimi with the steering and tyre change and Hamilton with the brakes).

Vettel, Alonso and Kimi are more consistent drivers.

Vettel and Hamilton are the two one lap specialist.

Vettel and Alonso are the most focused driver

There is a theme here. Only one driver ticks all the above requirements. If all of them were in one team i would definitely put my money on Vettel for winning the WDC although it would be very close between all four with each one pushing the other.

Regarding your point of choosing Ricardo over Kimi. Vettel would have welcomed Kimi because they are good friends and get along well. He was actually rooting for him. It was Dietrich Mateschitz final decision to give Ricardo an opportunity. The reason for the same are.

1) The investment in Torro Rosso and the Young Driver programs is a huge amount that should account for something. I mean look at lotus they had a reserve driver and choose to pick Heikki who dint really bring anything to the table.

2) Redbull already have a no 1 driver locked for 2 years they would prefer to give a young driver an opportunity to prove himself(unlike what Ferrari did with Hulenberg by signing Kimi)

3) But Kimi wouldnt do as much sponsorship promotions as Ricardo will e willing to do.

4) Kimi would have cost them at least another 20 Million per year. This 20 million is going to be very critical in a year like 2014 where so many changes could change the face of the championship as we know it with perhaps Williams or some mid level team becoming a force to recon with.

Although no one doubts Kimi's ability he wasnt Ferrari's first preference. It was to put Alonso in his place and to cover the possibility of Alonso leaving(Both Vettel and Hamilton are locked in their respective teams until 2015). Some senior people in Ferrari still believe that Kimi may push Alonso harder but Alonso will still come on top which remains to be seen.


Very good observation in regards to Ham, Kimi and Vettel's driving. All three have great natural speed. I find Kimi and Seb have cleaner (perfection like) lines. While Ham is more aggressive and less consistent.

Advantage of Kimi and Seb is laptime consistency and saving tires.

Advantage of Ham is the ability to eek out faster lap times especially during quali.

But like Eddie Jordan always says 'you can make a fast driver learn to tame his speed but I can't make a slow driver fast'. In other words, potential with Ham is still there.

I also think Vettel has plenty of potential being so young. But Kimi is more or less at his peak already.


How can Lewis still be regarded as one of the very best? He barely edged out Massa in 2008 for his one and only WDC, despite sitting in what was widely regarded the fastest car and team for the majority of his F1 career. The change to Mercedes brought him some sympathy points, but he didn't exactly establish himself as very superior to Nico Rosberg. Hamilton is still living on his 2007 rookie year where he very much so rattled Alonso's cage. If he wouldn't be British, you guys had torn him to shreds already.


Webber was close for a couple of years but in 2013 was completely outclassed.

Vettel was a much better and faster driver overall.


Good to see the breakdown of their time together.


Would've been lovely had all five seasons been on Bridgestone.


Wow. Thanks James.

SV trounced MW! I had no idea how badly though. Slightly embarrassing. Although to be fair the statistics do warrant further investigation. I'm surprised MW kept his job although that may have more to do with no one wanting to partner SV. I'm really looking forward to DR in the RBR. Hopefully he'll not be as much a cry-baby as MW. I thought it was a not classy how MW referred to SV for a long time. He has made good a bit by being complimentary over the last few months and maybe his insults were part of pysch-war etc. I doubt they had much effect, I reckon SV just laughed at them especially when he thought of the above statistics. Roll 2014 and another great year for SV hopefully he has some serious challengers next year.


Webber kept his job because with the cars Red Bull has had, he was the perfect man to complement Vettel. He did not challenge him at all (generally) while doing just enough to win the constructors title. This last thing was easy to do, with that car and the amount of points Vettel was bringing. Ironically, his poor performances were good for Red Bull.

Look at it this way. Had been the Ferraris the dominant car, and had Red Bull been at the level Ferrari has been these past years, Webber would have been sacked and Massa would be still driving for Ferrari. It is plain simple!


Massa would have been still driving for Ferrari if Alonso wouldn't have humiliated the team again and again by speaking out against them. The decision to sign Kimi was first to put Alonso in his place and secondly to cover the possibility that Alonso might jump teams. Since Vettel and Hamilton(potential replacements for him) are locked in their respective teams until 2015 Ferrari needed a class driver preferably and ex WDC to replace him. Also Kimi has been very consistent for Lotus after his comeback. If he can bring that consistency to Ferrari it will both help in Alonso upping his game and help Ferrari score more points for the constructors championship(although i think it might hurt them in the WDC similar to what happened when Alonso and Hamilton were teammates). And even though its not easy to tell who will come out on top between these two until the end of the next season, it will surely be an interesting battle. If Kimi comes on top it might also force Alonso to consider joining Mclaren in 2015(maybe he is already considering it if Ferrari doent deliver next year)

If you check stats i think for the last 20 years or so one thing is evident that one driver dominates while the no 2 driver plays a supplementary role for the constructors championship. I mean when did you have two World Champions in the same team at the same time? Surely its been ages. I mean just look at the last 15 years. Check the respective champions and their teammates while they won the WDC. Mika Hakkinen has had David Coulthard, Michael Schumacher has had Ruben Barrichello, Alonso has had Giancarlo fisichella, Kimi has had Massa, Hamilton has had Heikki kovalainen and Vettel has had Webber. What is obvious is that all of the above drivers have never won the WDC by beaten another WDC in the same car.

If you compare between Coultard, Barrichello, Fisichella, Massa and Webber. Webber has already beaten Coultard. And was considered better than Massa for Ferrari to even consider signing him for 2013. Massa was better than Giancarlo and slightly better or equal to Rubens. As you can see there would be no reason to sack Webber as long as he kept pushing Vettel which he did. That cant be said about Massa pushing Alonso


Anyone hear when the FIA will hush out the final numbers list?

I'd figure they would want to do it before Christmas, Santa style.

As a Vettel fan, I know that any of the last 4 seasons gear will still be good for 2015, but I'd still like to know the rest.


Thanks James, this is a great objective way to look at these two drivers. It is great to see almost everyone acknowledging Vettels talent.

I am happy for Mark because now that he doesn't have to have his race face on he can relax and say Vettel was faster. I think during their time competing Webber had to keep a fierce and aggressive composure including his comments to maintain his edge. I like the new relaxed open Webber a lot more.

Lachlan Mackinnon

Being an Aussie I have a soft spot for Mark. The guy did it hard getting into F1 and took his chances.....being so close in 2010 must have been tough to swallow but he got back on the horse so to speak.

I agree with my fellow posters.....Vettel is a master at getting the best out of machinery and adapting to the Pirelli tyres & exhaust blowing. This has seen him deservingly become a multiple world champion.

What I would like to understand better though is how much has the difference in body weight between the two drivers drivers influenced the stats over the past few years?? The flexibility for Vettel to place up to 12-15kg of ballast where he wants must account for 2 tenths each race weekend during qualifying. Placing a car on pole each race weekend was a key strength of Vettels!

This post is not a slight on Vettel......there are other factors that have let Mark down - launches of the line being one but I can't help but think that being a race jockey (around the 60 kg mark) is a significant benefit.......or have I got it wrong??

Lachlan Mackinnon

Thanks guys......I appreciate the feedback! At the end of the day Vettel has provenn himself to be the better racer, the results speak for themselves.

To the F1 community (fans & supporters included), all the best for the festive season. Cheers!


"The flexibility for Vettel to place up to 12-15kg of ballast where he wants must account for 2 tenths each race weekend during qualifying."

No, it mustn't. You can't simply make up whatever stuff you like and call it reality. The difference due to driver weight by best estimates of F1 engineers accounts for a few hundredths a lap, not tenths.

Remember that at least 50% of Webber's extra body weight is already situated as low in the car as it is possible to get. He only incurs a tiny performance hit due to the extra weight of his shoulders, arms, and head ... perhaps 5kg but not 15.


Still a dozen or so kilos that can be placed strategically.

Maybe I misread a few articles as well, but I seem to recall one to two tenths disadvantage to Hulkenberg for ten odd kilos being mentioned by at least one team?


That all sounds a bit made up as well Steve? Are you a physicist?


Button and Webber are about same height and weight never heard the argument being used in Button vs Hamilton for Button to adjust for the speed differential but its common place for Vettel vs Webber!


Actually I would say the difference between Vettel and Webber is bigger in the race than in qualifying, and it has always been. I do not agree on the general view here that Vettel's advantage was mainly due to qualifying, not at all. I know it is hard to see that, specially this year, but look for example the first half of 2012. It would have been clearer for the outsider if they were driving a worse car.

For me it is something similar to the Alonso-Massa comparison. Both have destroyed their teammates in qualifying during the past years, with similar percentages, but the biggest differences are in the race! In the Alonso-Massa comparison it is easier to see as there are more places to gain in the races with a Ferrari than with a Red bull, so the difference comes apparent not only in lap times, but also in finish positions.


Vettel the better driver. Mark the better man. And they will be men much longer than they will be drivers.

Personally, I think MW can be proud of his achievements.


Disagree totally. Both are men. Webber is very political and played a real game. Some either can't see it or overlook it.


Yeah, I understand what you are saying, fair point.

I don't think Mark would have pulled a "Malaysia" in the same position though. I don't think he would want to "win" like that.


You clearly havent read his comments on BBC in his own article i.e written by him where he said he ignored team orders to hold stations

" I'm not going to get any prizes for guessing what you all want to read about this week, am I? My team's decision to ask me not to try to pass Sebastian Vettel in the other Red Bull in the last four of five laps of the British Grand Prix.

I chose to race as hard and as fair as I thought was possible, trying my best to beat Seb. I got pretty close a couple of times but couldn't quite pull it off.

It was obviously a difficult situation, but I still feel comfortable about what I did. "

YOu were saying??? Where was multi 21 or 12 then?

Mark is very political he knew he was no match for Vettel on the track so he created his image of Vettel getting preferential treatment and Vettel being a brat. When it was the other way around. If you read what his other teammates have to say about him(Mark) you'll be very enlightened about his true nature and sportsmanship.

Please read the entire article its written by your hero in his own words


All the data show clearly that Vettel just smashed Webber. However, at times when the car was "wild" and didn't blow hot gases on the diffuser (floor or brake duct) Webber was suprisingly close to Vettel.


Good point

Webber is quick and matched vettel for pace plenty of times. What people forget is vettel is not that quicker than webber. there have been races where vettel and webber traded fastest times throughout the race. Vettel seems to be the better qualifier. This gave him track position advantage and he won races at will. When it comes to sunday webber has proved to be more than a match for vettel.

Though stats are in favour of vettel which he deserves too. Webber is a clear match for vettel for pace



"When it comes to sunday webber has proved to be more than a match for vettel."

How often? Even in early 2012, he was only able to beat Vettel 3 times- China, Monaco, Silverstone.

At best, Webber got close or was occasionally ahead. At worst, which happened far more often, Webber wasn't a match. That's why he won 3 races in the last 3 years, as opposed to 29. And I don't even think Webber was bad.


What did a lot of harm to Webber were his woes with starts. It's such a high profile element and can put you at the backfoot right at the start. Webber said the bad starts might have something to do with the Pirellis as he didn't have the feel for them. It's interesting it started in 2011 I think whereas in 2010 nd 09 he was often better off the line than Vettel.

I think had Bridgestone stayed in f1, Mark would've given Seb a good run for his money, might've been much closer.

Also I don't beieve a f1 driver is 2sec per lap faster than his teammate, the real differences are much smaller, marginal I would say. However, if you create conditions in which one of your drivers will thrive, you'll probably disadvantage to a certain extent the other one, and that happened at Red Bull.

Having said that, if RB decided to favour Vettel over Webber it must've been for a reason. I think the German is a better, certainly a more flexible driver. A great talent. But don't tell me he's 1-2s a lap faster than any of his opponents


Off topic (very in fact), but does anyone know what would happen in the event of a world championship ending in a tie?


It goes on count-back: most wins, if tied, most second places, if tied, most third places, etc. all the way down to 22nd places. If, and the odds of that happening are absolutely minuscule, it is still tied, the FIA chooses the champion.


It was 11-9 to Vettel in 2012 qualifying head to head. Though if you exclude Barcelona and Valencia (where Webber did not take part in Q3 through no fault of his own) then it was 9-9.


Barcelona, he was eliminated from Q2, without any issues.


James thanks for the insight but I would very much question the DNF's.

However even without DNF's Mark Webbers car had so many technical failures : KERS in particular that really cost him many opportunities at wins.It won't change the facts but it will bring the margins much closer than people appreciate.

RBR in particular Helmut Marko obviously saw the potential in Seb and it was very clear to me that they were fully committed to him early on in 2009/2010 . He did some really crazy things on track- turning in on JB Spa. Turkey 2010 with Mark was just wrong. He matured out of this world in 2011 and the car must have been driven like one with a throttle stuck open with exhaust blowing off throttle- so that must have taken some serious doing and obviously he got his head around that much better - which is probably the thing that really stands out looking back.

As for Mark- I cannot fathom any other racer ( and I mean anywhere) struggle to get the car off the line properly as many times as he did & must have cost him several certain race wins. It was easily the worst attribute of his in any of his 14 years! What he did at Brazil 2012 though was just insanity and despite my clear dislike of finger boy at the time - I just gasped and knew his days at RBR were over one way or another- Smacked of desperation and anger.Although Im an Aussie I never ever rated him like Alan Jones our last WC even before AJ won his title. Perhaps Mark needed another 10kgs to be at his fighting best..I know their all fit guys but seriously 70kgs is nothing for a guy that's 6'1 and Im sure that's something he won't miss about f1. Now I just very much regret that we won't see a top driver take Seb on in 2014 in the same car - but even then would RBR ever great anyone like they will Seb from now on--never, which is a trajedy for the sport really!


If you are questioning things, why would you only question Webber's mechanical issues and ignore Vettel's?

The impact on results of a mechanical issue on Webber's car was often larger, but that was because Webber was often behind Vettel. The absolute perfect example of that was this year's Italian Grand Prix: both Red Bulls had the exact same problem, but Webber lost a place to it because he wasn't performing as well, while Vettel held on to his lead, despite having the exact same issue.


It is staggering that people like you still ask these stupid questions. Webbers KERS problems occurred many times every year and sometimes for more than half the race. Sure it happened a few time in Sebs car but theres no comparison!- and what many would like to know is just how many times and how many laps were lost to these types of glitches..


@Bartholomu. Yes many people know it happened a lot. Did you bother to read we know it happened sometimes for "half the race" But we are not statisticians and the FIA or teams or close to the sport as JA.that keep tabs for 4 years. Whilst we don't need it - it helps others who don't follow the sport get a full picture and better understand the stats in the subject. despite Vettel being clearly strongest/ the underlying circumstances that led to such a big difference.

Like I said to others- do you have something to offer or are you just making pointless criticism??. What do you have to say about the subject ?? - that's right nothing. Just trolling for trouble.. Goodluck


"Webbers KERS problems occurred many times every year and sometimes for more than half the race"

"and what many would like to know is just how many times and how many laps were lost to these types of glitches.."

Confidently states how many times glitches happened... doesn't really know how often and how long they occurred.


@Martijn- If you have something to offer- please do - if not - why do you have the "double standard" of criticising but offering nothing. The point of technical failures was raised by many posters if you bothered to read all the posts. I don't need to know because I saw it every race-- it's just a handy stat to have for all here and it is not something that is available to the general public which is why I asked and only people close to the sport may have some access to it.

Most sensible people know that Seb is clearly the better driver. But these kind of technical problems help explain things to the general reader/ fan or just blind critic.


I'd say what's staggering is that someone who by his own admission doesn't know how many glitches happened, thinks he can claim to know that it only "happened a few times in Sebs car". Precisely the double standard I was talking about, so thank you for so clearly making my point. If you had bothered to do some research, you would know better than to make such claims.


** please delete**


A very impressive achievement for Vettel in their time as teammates. I was very much for Webber the first couple of years of their time together, eventually I realized that Vettel was just a bit too much better. While he is not the best liked racer around, Vettel should be given is dues. He is a step above plain good. Yet he stills has plenty of time to better his craft and grow even more complete. Scary if you are not one of his fans. Marc


clearly vettel ranks as one of the top 3 drivers , and webber does not ; so why did webber keep his seat for so long ?

a commentfrom newey perhaps sheds some light on it

mark was more difficult to package , but whereas vettel is more sensitive to mechanical changes , mark was better at feedback on aerodynamics [ quite close to newey's heart ! ]

mark had his chance in 2010 as is well known ...but who remembers that with 3 races to go he said he needed to win another race to be champion ? at which my heart sank ....I wanted to say to him what button did last year when he ignored the in style ...comments , played the percentages , racked up the points , and cruised home despite having far from the best car for the second half of the season

in reality , 3rd place at korea would have seen him home , but , in line with his belief , he went for it and the rest is history

having watched F1 for many years , I've seen far worse champions than webber would have been


I'd still rather have Webber over for dinner at my house with the family.


Because that's a relevant criteria for F1.


I wouldn't.


History will prove two things. The RBR's for the last four years are not as good as everyone thinks. Vettel & Webber have made them look unbeatable. Reality is that the last four years have been the most level playing field in F1 history.

Webber will be the only driver ever to come close to the performance of Vettel. Put him in the same car as any current driver and he will look just as good.!!


Thanks James for this fact comparison.

It's very interesting that Mark Webber fared badly against Vettel from 2011 onwards - the onset of the Pirelli era. I've always wondered whether it has to do with Mark struggling to fully get on top of the Pirellis or whether it was Vettel becoming even better after he'd won his first world championship title.

I suppose we'd never know (and maybe it was due to both) ...


I wonder how Vettel is going to be in 2014 on the turbo's, he didn't look to great driving it in P1, 2 & 3 and qualifying. His 13th which was later changed to 12th due penalties to Bottas and Gutierrez was as usual Vettel's luck, he also didn't look like a happy man after Q2 finished (he never made it to Q3) and he blamed the electronics but the truth was that he never made an impact in any of the days of practice with his new car. But on the other hand his team mate DR had the same car which you would think would have had the same problems but DR was always the quickest in all the Q's sessions except for Q3 where DR should have put a new set of the full wets before his last 2 laps of Q3 (like Hamilton did) instead of insisting on intermediates and then he would have got pole. Vettel at no stage gave DR any credit for beating him and always blamed his car for the problems. I wonder when Vettel and Dr are going to fight it out for 1st place in any of the GP’s if Vettel will use the dirty tactics that he used on Webber and crash or try to push DR off the track or do anything untoward to gain superiority over his team mate like he did to Webber at the beginning when he joined RBR, in my opinion Vettel will do anything and everything to try and break RD be it untoward or any tactic so that he will get on top this is his tactic and style (he tries to imitate Sena’s style) . 2014 will be very interesting and I wonder how DR will handle Vettel and his untoward dirty style and tactics.

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