Insight: How close to Vettel did Webber get during five seasons at Red Bull?
Posted By: James Allen  |  16 Dec 2013   |  2:08 am GMT  |  242 comments

Mark Webber’s decision to quit Formula 1 at the end of this season brought to an end a seven-year association with Red Bull.

The Australian partnered Sebastian Vettel for his final five seasons, during which Vettel won the title four times and finished second once. During the same period, Webber managed three third place finishes in the standings, plus a fourth and sixth.

But how close was Webber to his more decorated team-mate?

Overall, Vettel had the edge in qualifying, outperforming Webber 77 times to 22. The German also had the more impressive pole record, with 44 to the Australian’s 13.

When it came to the races, Webber was closer in terms of points finishes, scoring 65 to Vettel’s 80, but he was comfortably beaten in terms of wins, with the German taking 38 to Webber’s nine.

In terms of retirements, they were pretty level over five years, with Vettel suffering nine DNFs to Webber’s 10, but when they did finish, Vettel was in front more often than not, reaching the chequered flag first on 57 occassions to Webber’s 19.

Webber scored around two thirds of Vettel’s total points, the Australian clocking up 947.5 to Vettel’s impressive 1410, and was beaten in each of the five years in the overall drivers’ standings by his younger team-mate.



Faster qualifying time: Vettel 77 / Webber 22

Poles: Vettel 44 / Webber 13

Front rows: Vettel 63 / Webber 34


Wins: Vettel 38 / Webber 9

Podiums: Vettel 61 / Webber 40

Points finishes: Vettel 80 / Webber 65 

DNFs: Vettel 9 / Webber 10
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 66 / Webber 27
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 57 / Webber 19


Points: Vettel 1410 / Webber 947.5
Seasons finished higher in standings: Vettel 5 / Webber 0
Highest championship placing: Vettel 1st (2010, 2011, 2012, 2013) / Webber 3rd (2010, 2011, 2013)

Their first season together – 2009 – was actually pretty close when it came to the races, with Vettel edging the wins tally four to two but both drivers scoring the same number of podiums – eight. Vettel edged the points finishes at 12 to 10 with the drivers finishing equal in the head-to-head when they both finished the race at six apiece.

But in qualifying, where Vettel seems to have had the edge, the German was dominant from the start, outqualifying Webber 17 times to two and achieving eight front row grid slots to Webber’s two.

2009 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 17 / Webber 2

Poles: Vettel 4 / Webber 1

Front rows: Vettel 8 / Webber 2


Wins: Vettel 4 / Webber 2

Podiums: Vettel 8 / Webber 8

Points finishes: Vettel 12 / Webber 10 

DNFs: Vettel 3 / Webber 2
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 8 / Webber 9
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 6 / Webber 6


Points: Vettel 84/ Webber 69.5
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 2nd / Webber 4rd

The following season – 2010 – was the one where Webber came closest to winning the championship during his whole career, and that is reflected in the stats.

Webber was much closer in qualifying, with Vettel outqualifying the Australian 12 times to seven and 10 poles to five, but they both managed to start on the front row 13 times.

In the races, Vettel edged the most wins tally with five to Webber’s four, but both drivers scored the same number of podiums – 10. Webber actually beat Vettel in terms of the number of points finishes – 17 to 15, but perhaps crucially, he lost the head-to-head when both drivers finished, with Vettel triumphing 10 times to five.

2010 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 12 / Webber 7

Poles: Vettel 10 / Webber 5

Front rows: Vettel 13 / Webber 13


Wins: Vettel 5 / Webber 4

Podiums: Vettel 10 / Webber 10

Points finishes: Vettel 15 / Webber 17
DNFs: Vettel 3 / Webber 2
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 11 / Webber 7
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 10 / Webber 5


Points: Vettel 256/ Webber 242
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 3rd

Vettel was the stronger qualifier once more in 2011, outqualifying Webber 16 times to three and scoring 15 poles to the Australian’s three.

In the races, he comfortably topped the win tally with 11 victories to Webber’s one, but they were level on points finishes with 18 apiece thanks to the ultra-reliable Red Bull. Vettel thrashed Webber in the head-to-head when both cars finished, triumphing 15 times to two.

2011 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 16 / Webber 3
Poles: Vettel 15 / Webber 3

Front rows: Vettel 18 / Webber 8


Wins: Vettel 11 / Webber 1

Podiums: Vettel 17 / Webber 10

Points finishes: Vettel 18 / Webber 18 

DNFs: Vettel 1 / Webber 1
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 16 / Webber 3
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 15 / Webber 2


Points: Vettel 392/ Webber 258
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 3rd

In terms of championship position, 2012 was Webber’s more disappointing year as the Australian finished sixth in the standings’ as Vettel went on to win his third title.

In qualifying, it was closer, with Vettel just edging Webber 12 to eight. In the races, the gap was slightly wider, with Vettel finishing ahead of Webber 11 times to six when both finished. They were close again on points finishes, with Vettel ahead 17 to 15, but crucially Vettel had more wins – five to two – and more podiums – 10 to four.

2012 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 12 / Webber 8

Poles: Vettel 6 / Webber 2

Front rows: Vettel 9 / Webber 6


Wins: Vettel 5 / Webber 2

Podiums: Vettel 10 / Webber 4

Points finishes: Vettel 17 / Webber 15 

DNFs: Vettel 1 / Webber 2
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 13 / Webber 7
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 11 / Webber 6


Points: Vettel 281/ Webber 179
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 6th

In Webber’s final season, Vettel had the edge in every department. In qualifying, he comfortably outpaced his team-mate 15 times to two, with the German claiming nine poles to Webber’s two – which came during a purple patch for the Australian in the final few races.

In the races, Vettel was brilliant, securing a record-equalling 13 wins as Webber – who had the win pinched off him by Vettel in Malaysia – failed to climb aboard the top step.

Vettel had double the number of podiums at 16 to Webber’s eight, and finished ahead every time both drivers finished a race (15 in total). That was the German’s most convincing performance in a season during their partnership.

As a result, Vettel finished with nearly double the number of points as Webber, who had more retirements in 2013, clocking up three to Vettel’s one.

2013 STATS


Faster qualifying time: Vettel 15 / Webber 2

Poles: Vettel 9 / Webber 2

Front rows: Vettel 15 / Webber 5


Wins: Vettel 13 / Webber 0

Podiums: Vettel 16 / Webber 8

Points finishes: Vettel 18 / Webber 15 

DNFs: Vettel 1 / Webber 3
Best race result (inc DNFs): Vettel 18 / Webber 1
Ahead in two-car finish: Vettel 15 / Webber 0


Points: Vettel 397/ Webber 199
Finished higher in standings: Vettel
Championship placing: Vettel 1st / Webber 3rd

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I wonder how Vettel is going to be in 2014 on the turbo’s, he didn’t look to great driving it in P1, 2 & 3 and qualifying. His 13th which was later changed to 12th due penalties to Bottas and Gutierrez was as usual Vettel’s luck, he also didn’t look like a happy man after Q2 finished (he never made it to Q3) and he blamed the electronics but the truth was that he never made an impact in any of the days of practice with his new car. But on the other hand his team mate DR had the same car which you would think would have had the same problems but DR was always the quickest in all the Q’s sessions except for Q3 where DR should have put a new set of the full wets before his last 2 laps of Q3 (like Hamilton did) instead of insisting on intermediates and then he would have got pole. Vettel at no stage gave DR any credit for beating him and always blamed his car for the problems. I wonder when Vettel and Dr are going to fight it out for 1st place in any of the GP’s if Vettel will use the dirty tactics that he used on Webber and crash or try to push DR off the track or do anything untoward to gain superiority over his team mate like he did to Webber at the beginning when he joined RBR, in my opinion Vettel will do anything and everything to try and break RD be it untoward or any tactic so that he will get on top this is his tactic and style (he tries to imitate Sena’s style) . 2014 will be very interesting and I wonder how DR will handle Vettel and his untoward dirty style and tactics.


Thanks James for this fact comparison.

It’s very interesting that Mark Webber fared badly against Vettel from 2011 onwards – the onset of the Pirelli era. I’ve always wondered whether it has to do with Mark struggling to fully get on top of the Pirellis or whether it was Vettel becoming even better after he’d won his first world championship title.

I suppose we’d never know (and maybe it was due to both) …


History will prove two things. The RBR’s for the last four years are not as good as everyone thinks. Vettel & Webber have made them look unbeatable. Reality is that the last four years have been the most level playing field in F1 history.

Webber will be the only driver ever to come close to the performance of Vettel. Put him in the same car as any current driver and he will look just as good.!!


I’d still rather have Webber over for dinner at my house with the family.


Because that’s a relevant criteria for F1.


I wouldn’t.


clearly vettel ranks as one of the top 3 drivers , and webber does not ; so why did webber keep his seat for so long ?

a commentfrom newey perhaps sheds some light on it

mark was more difficult to package , but whereas vettel is more sensitive to mechanical changes , mark was better at feedback on aerodynamics [ quite close to newey’s heart ! ]

mark had his chance in 2010 as is well known …but who remembers that with 3 races to go he said he needed to win another race to be champion ? at which my heart sank ….I wanted to say to him ….do what button did last year when he ignored the …win in style …comments , played the percentages , racked up the points , and cruised home despite having far from the best car for the second half of the season

in reality , 3rd place at korea would have seen him home , but , in line with his belief , he went for it and the rest is history

having watched F1 for many years , I’ve seen far worse champions than webber would have been


A very impressive achievement for Vettel in their time as teammates. I was very much for Webber the first couple of years of their time together, eventually I realized that Vettel was just a bit too much better. While he is not the best liked racer around, Vettel should be given is dues. He is a step above plain good. Yet he stills has plenty of time to better his craft and grow even more complete. Scary if you are not one of his fans. Marc


** please delete**


James thanks for the insight but I would very much question the DNF’s.

However even without DNF’s Mark Webbers car had so many technical failures : KERS in particular that really cost him many opportunities at wins.It won’t change the facts but it will bring the margins much closer than people appreciate.

RBR in particular Helmut Marko obviously saw the potential in Seb and it was very clear to me that they were fully committed to him early on in 2009/2010 . He did some really crazy things on track- turning in on JB Spa. Turkey 2010 with Mark was just wrong. He matured out of this world in 2011 and the car must have been driven like one with a throttle stuck open with exhaust blowing off throttle- so that must have taken some serious doing and obviously he got his head around that much better – which is probably the thing that really stands out looking back.

As for Mark- I cannot fathom any other racer ( and I mean anywhere) struggle to get the car off the line properly as many times as he did & must have cost him several certain race wins. It was easily the worst attribute of his in any of his 14 years! What he did at Brazil 2012 though was just insanity and despite my clear dislike of finger boy at the time – I just gasped and knew his days at RBR were over one way or another- Smacked of desperation and anger.Although Im an Aussie I never ever rated him like Alan Jones our last WC even before AJ won his title. Perhaps Mark needed another 10kgs to be at his fighting best..I know their all fit guys but seriously 70kgs is nothing for a guy that’s 6’1 and Im sure that’s something he won’t miss about f1. Now I just very much regret that we won’t see a top driver take Seb on in 2014 in the same car – but even then would RBR ever great anyone like they will Seb from now on–never, which is a trajedy for the sport really!


If you are questioning things, why would you only question Webber’s mechanical issues and ignore Vettel’s?

The impact on results of a mechanical issue on Webber’s car was often larger, but that was because Webber was often behind Vettel. The absolute perfect example of that was this year’s Italian Grand Prix: both Red Bulls had the exact same problem, but Webber lost a place to it because he wasn’t performing as well, while Vettel held on to his lead, despite having the exact same issue.


It is staggering that people like you still ask these stupid questions. Webbers KERS problems occurred many times every year and sometimes for more than half the race. Sure it happened a few time in Sebs car but theres no comparison!- and what many would like to know is just how many times and how many laps were lost to these types of glitches..


@Bartholomu. Yes many people know it happened a lot. Did you bother to read we know it happened sometimes for “half the race” But we are not statisticians and the FIA or teams or close to the sport as JA.that keep tabs for 4 years. Whilst we don’t need it – it helps others who don’t follow the sport get a full picture and better understand the stats in the subject. despite Vettel being clearly strongest/ the underlying circumstances that led to such a big difference.

Like I said to others- do you have something to offer or are you just making pointless criticism??. What do you have to say about the subject ?? – that’s right nothing. Just trolling for trouble.. Goodluck


“Webbers KERS problems occurred many times every year and sometimes for more than half the race”

“and what many would like to know is just how many times and how many laps were lost to these types of glitches..”

Confidently states how many times glitches happened… doesn’t really know how often and how long they occurred.


@Martijn- If you have something to offer- please do – if not – why do you have the “double standard” of criticising but offering nothing. The point of technical failures was raised by many posters if you bothered to read all the posts. I don’t need to know because I saw it every race– it’s just a handy stat to have for all here and it is not something that is available to the general public which is why I asked and only people close to the sport may have some access to it.

Most sensible people know that Seb is clearly the better driver. But these kind of technical problems help explain things to the general reader/ fan or just blind critic.


I’d say what’s staggering is that someone who by his own admission doesn’t know how many glitches happened, thinks he can claim to know that it only “happened a few times in Sebs car”. Precisely the double standard I was talking about, so thank you for so clearly making my point. If you had bothered to do some research, you would know better than to make such claims.


It was 11-9 to Vettel in 2012 qualifying head to head. Though if you exclude Barcelona and Valencia (where Webber did not take part in Q3 through no fault of his own) then it was 9-9.


Barcelona, he was eliminated from Q2, without any issues.


Off topic (very in fact), but does anyone know what would happen in the event of a world championship ending in a tie?


It goes on count-back: most wins, if tied, most second places, if tied, most third places, etc. all the way down to 22nd places. If, and the odds of that happening are absolutely minuscule, it is still tied, the FIA chooses the champion.


All the data show clearly that Vettel just smashed Webber. However, at times when the car was “wild” and didn’t blow hot gases on the diffuser (floor or brake duct) Webber was suprisingly close to Vettel.


Good point

Webber is quick and matched vettel for pace plenty of times. What people forget is vettel is not that quicker than webber. there have been races where vettel and webber traded fastest times throughout the race. Vettel seems to be the better qualifier. This gave him track position advantage and he won races at will. When it comes to sunday webber has proved to be more than a match for vettel.

Though stats are in favour of vettel which he deserves too. Webber is a clear match for vettel for pace



“When it comes to sunday webber has proved to be more than a match for vettel.”

How often? Even in early 2012, he was only able to beat Vettel 3 times- China, Monaco, Silverstone.

At best, Webber got close or was occasionally ahead. At worst, which happened far more often, Webber wasn’t a match. That’s why he won 3 races in the last 3 years, as opposed to 29. And I don’t even think Webber was bad.


What did a lot of harm to Webber were his woes with starts. It’s such a high profile element and can put you at the backfoot right at the start. Webber said the bad starts might have something to do with the Pirellis as he didn’t have the feel for them. It’s interesting it started in 2011 I think whereas in 2010 nd 09 he was often better off the line than Vettel.

I think had Bridgestone stayed in f1, Mark would’ve given Seb a good run for his money, might’ve been much closer.

Also I don’t beieve a f1 driver is 2sec per lap faster than his teammate, the real differences are much smaller, marginal I would say. However, if you create conditions in which one of your drivers will thrive, you’ll probably disadvantage to a certain extent the other one, and that happened at Red Bull.

Having said that, if RB decided to favour Vettel over Webber it must’ve been for a reason. I think the German is a better, certainly a more flexible driver. A great talent. But don’t tell me he’s 1-2s a lap faster than any of his opponents


Vettel the better driver. Mark the better man. And they will be men much longer than they will be drivers.

Personally, I think MW can be proud of his achievements.


Disagree totally. Both are men. Webber is very political and played a real game. Some either can’t see it or overlook it.


Yeah, I understand what you are saying, fair point.

I don’t think Mark would have pulled a “Malaysia” in the same position though. I don’t think he would want to “win” like that.


You clearly havent read his comments on BBC in his own article i.e written by him where he said he ignored team orders to hold stations

” I’m not going to get any prizes for guessing what you all want to read about this week, am I? My team’s decision to ask me not to try to pass Sebastian Vettel in the other Red Bull in the last four of five laps of the British Grand Prix.

I chose to race as hard and as fair as I thought was possible, trying my best to beat Seb. I got pretty close a couple of times but couldn’t quite pull it off.

It was obviously a difficult situation, but I still feel comfortable about what I did. “

YOu were saying??? Where was multi 21 or 12 then?

Mark is very political he knew he was no match for Vettel on the track so he created his image of Vettel getting preferential treatment and Vettel being a brat. When it was the other way around. If you read what his other teammates have to say about him(Mark) you’ll be very enlightened about his true nature and sportsmanship.

Please read the entire article its written by your hero in his own words

Lachlan Mackinnon

Being an Aussie I have a soft spot for Mark. The guy did it hard getting into F1 and took his chances…..being so close in 2010 must have been tough to swallow but he got back on the horse so to speak.

I agree with my fellow posters…..Vettel is a master at getting the best out of machinery and adapting to the Pirelli tyres & exhaust blowing. This has seen him deservingly become a multiple world champion.

What I would like to understand better though is how much has the difference in body weight between the two drivers drivers influenced the stats over the past few years?? The flexibility for Vettel to place up to 12-15kg of ballast where he wants must account for 2 tenths each race weekend during qualifying. Placing a car on pole each race weekend was a key strength of Vettels!

This post is not a slight on Vettel……there are other factors that have let Mark down – launches of the line being one but I can’t help but think that being a race jockey (around the 60 kg mark) is a significant benefit…….or have I got it wrong??

Lachlan Mackinnon

Thanks guys……I appreciate the feedback! At the end of the day Vettel has provenn himself to be the better racer, the results speak for themselves.

To the F1 community (fans & supporters included), all the best for the festive season. Cheers!


“The flexibility for Vettel to place up to 12-15kg of ballast where he wants must account for 2 tenths each race weekend during qualifying.”

No, it mustn’t. You can’t simply make up whatever stuff you like and call it reality. The difference due to driver weight by best estimates of F1 engineers accounts for a few hundredths a lap, not tenths.

Remember that at least 50% of Webber’s extra body weight is already situated as low in the car as it is possible to get. He only incurs a tiny performance hit due to the extra weight of his shoulders, arms, and head … perhaps 5kg but not 15.


Still a dozen or so kilos that can be placed strategically.

Maybe I misread a few articles as well, but I seem to recall one to two tenths disadvantage to Hulkenberg for ten odd kilos being mentioned by at least one team?


That all sounds a bit made up as well Steve? Are you a physicist?


Button and Webber are about same height and weight never heard the argument being used in Button vs Hamilton for Button to adjust for the speed differential but its common place for Vettel vs Webber!


Actually I would say the difference between Vettel and Webber is bigger in the race than in qualifying, and it has always been. I do not agree on the general view here that Vettel’s advantage was mainly due to qualifying, not at all. I know it is hard to see that, specially this year, but look for example the first half of 2012. It would have been clearer for the outsider if they were driving a worse car.

For me it is something similar to the Alonso-Massa comparison. Both have destroyed their teammates in qualifying during the past years, with similar percentages, but the biggest differences are in the race! In the Alonso-Massa comparison it is easier to see as there are more places to gain in the races with a Ferrari than with a Red bull, so the difference comes apparent not only in lap times, but also in finish positions.


Thanks James, this is a great objective way to look at these two drivers. It is great to see almost everyone acknowledging Vettels talent.

I am happy for Mark because now that he doesn’t have to have his race face on he can relax and say Vettel was faster. I think during their time competing Webber had to keep a fierce and aggressive composure including his comments to maintain his edge. I like the new relaxed open Webber a lot more.


Anyone hear when the FIA will hush out the final numbers list?

I’d figure they would want to do it before Christmas, Santa style.

As a Vettel fan, I know that any of the last 4 seasons gear will still be good for 2015, but I’d still like to know the rest.


Wow. Thanks James.

SV trounced MW! I had no idea how badly though. Slightly embarrassing. Although to be fair the statistics do warrant further investigation. I’m surprised MW kept his job although that may have more to do with no one wanting to partner SV. I’m really looking forward to DR in the RBR. Hopefully he’ll not be as much a cry-baby as MW. I thought it was a not classy how MW referred to SV for a long time. He has made good a bit by being complimentary over the last few months and maybe his insults were part of pysch-war etc. I doubt they had much effect, I reckon SV just laughed at them especially when he thought of the above statistics. Roll 2014 and another great year for SV hopefully he has some serious challengers next year.


Webber kept his job because with the cars Red Bull has had, he was the perfect man to complement Vettel. He did not challenge him at all (generally) while doing just enough to win the constructors title. This last thing was easy to do, with that car and the amount of points Vettel was bringing. Ironically, his poor performances were good for Red Bull.

Look at it this way. Had been the Ferraris the dominant car, and had Red Bull been at the level Ferrari has been these past years, Webber would have been sacked and Massa would be still driving for Ferrari. It is plain simple!


Massa would have been still driving for Ferrari if Alonso wouldn’t have humiliated the team again and again by speaking out against them. The decision to sign Kimi was first to put Alonso in his place and secondly to cover the possibility that Alonso might jump teams. Since Vettel and Hamilton(potential replacements for him) are locked in their respective teams until 2015 Ferrari needed a class driver preferably and ex WDC to replace him. Also Kimi has been very consistent for Lotus after his comeback. If he can bring that consistency to Ferrari it will both help in Alonso upping his game and help Ferrari score more points for the constructors championship(although i think it might hurt them in the WDC similar to what happened when Alonso and Hamilton were teammates). And even though its not easy to tell who will come out on top between these two until the end of the next season, it will surely be an interesting battle. If Kimi comes on top it might also force Alonso to consider joining Mclaren in 2015(maybe he is already considering it if Ferrari doent deliver next year)

If you check stats i think for the last 20 years or so one thing is evident that one driver dominates while the no 2 driver plays a supplementary role for the constructors championship. I mean when did you have two World Champions in the same team at the same time? Surely its been ages. I mean just look at the last 15 years. Check the respective champions and their teammates while they won the WDC. Mika Hakkinen has had David Coulthard, Michael Schumacher has had Ruben Barrichello, Alonso has had Giancarlo fisichella, Kimi has had Massa, Hamilton has had Heikki kovalainen and Vettel has had Webber. What is obvious is that all of the above drivers have never won the WDC by beaten another WDC in the same car.

If you compare between Coultard, Barrichello, Fisichella, Massa and Webber. Webber has already beaten Coultard. And was considered better than Massa for Ferrari to even consider signing him for 2013. Massa was better than Giancarlo and slightly better or equal to Rubens. As you can see there would be no reason to sack Webber as long as he kept pushing Vettel which he did. That cant be said about Massa pushing Alonso


Would’ve been lovely had all five seasons been on Bridgestone.


Good to see the breakdown of their time together.


Webber was close for a couple of years but in 2013 was completely outclassed.

Vettel was a much better and faster driver overall.


I would dearly love to see how Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi would stack up against Vettel in the same car.

Shame Red Bull didn’t get more agressive with their driver choice for ’14.

Up until this year I was convinced Hamilton or Alonso were the best two drivers (with Vettel slightly flattered by his car), but 2013 has won me over. The kid is different class.


Surprised you say Vet was slightly flattered by his car up until 2013, then you are won over. That is considering in 2013 Sebs car is different class altogether.

Certainly Vet was excellent in 2013. If anything, 2013 is the hardest year yet to attempt to compare Vet, Ham and Alo.

The second half of 2013 was a joke – Newey using the tyre change to make a joke of the other engineers – and as Schuey showed in 04, it’s a lot easier when your car can pole, race away, then cruise for the majority of the race in clean air without interacting with many other cars.


Agree. People are won over by Vettel by two facts: amazing consistency and his comparison with Webber (also numbers are hard to ignore and are not put in the proper context by the majority of the people). The consistency thing is a real signature of him being very good and professional, but not that much of his pure skills and talent. These last two things have to be measured against other drivers, and the only possible comparison in 2013 is Webber.

A driver has to be judged under real challenge. That did not exist in 2011 and 2013, and interestingly those are Vettel best years…


“A driver has to be judged under real challenge. That did not exist in 2011 and 2013, and interestingly those are Vettel best years…”

Depends. He was challenged hugely in 2010 (as the youngest of 5 championship contenders, and having the most unreliability and misfortune), and in 2012 (with the pressure or some people more or less lying that his car was dominant, to diminish his driving). Became champion in both years.


Come on… You really believe Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi is that good?


Yes it would be very close and I believe would go down to the wire. They are vastly superior to webber, and they can all start an F1 car properly. Vettel is very good no doubt about it. The Red Bull the way Vettel was driving it made him look like an Alien, way ahead of everyone. His technique in the corners meant he could stamp on the throttle earlier than anyone, which is credit to him, Webber couldn’t do it. But on absolute raw pace he isn’t ahead of Kimi or Ham. I could see him having the edge in quali but I could also imagine Kimi reeling him in during races. Raikkonen and Hamiltons technique in corners is very similar to how vettel was driving the Red Bull so I think it would be very close. Shame they picked Ricciardo instead of Kimi


“Unlike what you said. Vettel has a vastly different style to Hamilton. While Hamilton is very late on his brakes. Vettel is quicker on the throttle. I.e they are just the opposite in their driving styles.”

Why does that mean their styles are opposite?! Of course drivers will adapt there style to different cars, but there natural style will remain the same. Vettel is also very late on the brakes, Brundle often points out. Vettel is seemingly very early on the throttle this season because of the clever exhaust and the way he manipulates the car round on the brakes so he can stamp on the throttle. There styles are similar, with Kimi also. All these 3 drivers like to brake late, swing the car round so they can shorten the corner and pick up the throttle earlier. Webber can’t drive this way hence the huge performance gulf between him and Vettel. An opposite driving style to these 3 would be Button, who is slower into a corner but carries more speed through it. His line is longer however, as he doesn’t manipulate the car on the brakes. So he carries more speed than say Kimi but Kimi is in the corner for less time because he shortens it whereas Button makes it go on longer.


Unlike what you said. Vettel has a vastly different style to Hamilton. While Hamilton is very late on his brakes. Vettel is quicker on the throttle. I.e they are just the opposite in their driving styles. And You wouldnt see Vettel’s true pace in most races because he would be driving to a Delta and his team would be after him to slow down. Whenever they asked him to show his pace he would up his pace and increase his margin over the rest leaving every one astonished so much so that Hamilton who saw the replay of Vettel’s lap said the only way he could get on the throttle so early is if he had throttle control(which he wouldnt have said if his style was similar to Vettels).

The top skills of an F1 driver are adaptability, Speed, Focus and Consistency.

Vettel and Alonso are the most adaptable drivers. Both Kimi and Hamilton suffered getting used to their new teams.(Kimi with the steering and tyre change and Hamilton with the brakes).

Vettel, Alonso and Kimi are more consistent drivers.

Vettel and Hamilton are the two one lap specialist.

Vettel and Alonso are the most focused driver

There is a theme here. Only one driver ticks all the above requirements. If all of them were in one team i would definitely put my money on Vettel for winning the WDC although it would be very close between all four with each one pushing the other.

Regarding your point of choosing Ricardo over Kimi. Vettel would have welcomed Kimi because they are good friends and get along well. He was actually rooting for him. It was Dietrich Mateschitz final decision to give Ricardo an opportunity. The reason for the same are.

1) The investment in Torro Rosso and the Young Driver programs is a huge amount that should account for something. I mean look at lotus they had a reserve driver and choose to pick Heikki who dint really bring anything to the table.

2) Redbull already have a no 1 driver locked for 2 years they would prefer to give a young driver an opportunity to prove himself(unlike what Ferrari did with Hulenberg by signing Kimi)

3) But Kimi wouldnt do as much sponsorship promotions as Ricardo will e willing to do.

4) Kimi would have cost them at least another 20 Million per year. This 20 million is going to be very critical in a year like 2014 where so many changes could change the face of the championship as we know it with perhaps Williams or some mid level team becoming a force to recon with.

Although no one doubts Kimi’s ability he wasnt Ferrari’s first preference. It was to put Alonso in his place and to cover the possibility of Alonso leaving(Both Vettel and Hamilton are locked in their respective teams until 2015). Some senior people in Ferrari still believe that Kimi may push Alonso harder but Alonso will still come on top which remains to be seen.


Very good observation in regards to Ham, Kimi and Vettel’s driving. All three have great natural speed. I find Kimi and Seb have cleaner (perfection like) lines. While Ham is more aggressive and less consistent.

Advantage of Kimi and Seb is laptime consistency and saving tires.

Advantage of Ham is the ability to eek out faster lap times especially during quali.

But like Eddie Jordan always says ‘you can make a fast driver learn to tame his speed but I can’t make a slow driver fast’. In other words, potential with Ham is still there.

I also think Vettel has plenty of potential being so young. But Kimi is more or less at his peak already.


How can Lewis still be regarded as one of the very best? He barely edged out Massa in 2008 for his one and only WDC, despite sitting in what was widely regarded the fastest car and team for the majority of his F1 career. The change to Mercedes brought him some sympathy points, but he didn’t exactly establish himself as very superior to Nico Rosberg. Hamilton is still living on his 2007 rookie year where he very much so rattled Alonso’s cage. If he wouldn’t be British, you guys had torn him to shreds already.


Favoritism or not there could be no doubt that Vettel was faster. Waiting to see if Daniel will manage to get even that close to Vettel.

Some say (e.g. Gary Anderson that Vettel was faster because he managed to get more benefit from the exhaust blowing with the way he drives, particularly at low speeds. The new exhaust regulations should give Ricciardo some chance.


I’d rank Webber alongside Massa (pre-crash) and Button as a very good driver who could, if the cards fell the right way, have ended up with a WDC. He had the bad luck to end up with Vettel for a teammate. As he put it, “In some ways I feel like Gerhard Berger with Ayrton Senna – Gerhard was also a great racer, but not enough for the title.”

The fact that Vettel beat him so comprehensively even in their first year together should make it clear to even the most blinkered that the 4x champ is a once in a generation talent.


massa attracted the farrari to sign him for a very long time. which of the top teams would sign webber? webber was at red bull before newey joined red bull.


Ferrari approached Webber for 2012 he said no!


nearly is not good enough.


“I’d rank Webber alongside Massa (pre-crash)”.

Given that the differences between Alonso-Massa and Vettel-Webber are comparable, I’m sure the fact Massa is now a much worse driver than “pre-crash”, and hence considerably worse than Webber, is the evidence you use to rate Vettel in a level of his own, and certainly a level above Fernando Alonso.

At the end, all your faith in Vettel is linked to a supposition on the physical impact that an accident did to a driver, to the point he is no longer the same. A supposition that goes against what doctors say, who are the only ones who can give an empirical corroboration, and in fact have said that Massa’s physical capabilities are absolutely intact.

Certainly, your faith in Vettel being a unique human being is hanging by a thread.


Yoga my comparison is not between two drivers driving different cars. Its between teammates. What i was trying to show you was the difference between drivers driving the same car. While all drivers arent equal a team would like to have a barometer to judge the performance of one driver to his teammate. If Alonso can win 11 times in 4 years in Ferrari than Massa should have had at least 2.6 wins or say for brevity at least 2 to 3 wins to be compared as an equal to Webber. and the same goes for podiums comparison too.

Lets make a simple point table that cuts out the anomalies of the current point system just for analysis. We will reward points in this order 1st place gets 10 place 2nd place gets 9 3rd place get 8 and so on …… to 1 point for the 10th place and compare where these 4 drivers stand without looking at podiums or victories. This way the extra 7 point you get finishing first is taken out as it distorts the comparison between teammates.

2010 Season

Average Position Finished

Vettel 3.62, Webber 4,

Alonso 3.83, Massa 7.11.

Points awarded for analysis(10 for 1st 9 for 2nd…).

Vettel 122, Webber 119( i.e he scored 97.54% of Vettels points)

Alonso 121, Massa 82,(67.78%)

Actual Official Points

Vettel 256, Webber 242(94.53%)

Alonso 252, Massa 144 (57.14%)


Average finishing position

Vettel 1.5, Webber 3.33,

Alonso 3.44, Massa 6.37.

Points awarded for analysis.

Vettel 170 Webber 138(81.17%)

Alonso 136 Massa 74(54.41%)

Offical Points scored

Vettel 392, Webber 258(65.81%)

Alonso 257, Massa 118 (45.91%)


Average finishing position

Vettel 3.44 Webber 5.35

Alonso 3.27 Massa 8

Point scored for Analysis

Vettel 136, Webber 96(70.58%)

Alonso 139, Massa 66(47.48%)

Official Points

Vettel 281, Webber 178(63.70%)

Alonso 278, Massa 122(43.88%)


Average finishing position

Vettel 1.61 Webber 3.8

Alonso 4.05 Massa 7.17

Points awarded for analysis

Vettel 169 Webber 108(63.90%)

Alonso 125 Massa 66 (56%)

Offical Points Scored

Vettel 397, Webber 199(50.12%)

Alonso 242, Massa 112(46.28%)

The average position for the last four years for Vettel is 2.54 vs 4.12 for Webber. While it is 3.64 for Alonso and 7.16 for Massa. Remember we are only comparing teammates. Even you compare the averages of the points you’ll find a similar outcome.

I dont assume Massa is a worst driver now than 2007 or 2008. What i am implying is that compared to his TEAMMATEs his performance has dipped after his crash. Let me reiterate this isnt about the speed or performance of the Ferrari in relationship to any other car on the tract. This is just a comparison between teammates. And my arguments arent flawed as i have based them on stats and not my own opinion.

Massa has to say he is 100% fit or his racing career will be over. No team would hire a damaged driver. The difference between Massa before his crash and now is in his lack of consistency. If you watch his laptimes in relationship to Alonso, you’ll see that as the race progress he keeps falling behind. That is why last year Webber was approached by Ferrari to replace Massa. They needed a stronger 2nd Driver to being in points and occasionally push Alonso so that he would raise his game. If Webber was really equal to Massa and no better. Ferrari wouldnt have approached him.

Secondly there is a learning curve in f1 that incorporate both speed and consistency it doesnt keep going up each year. It take a good driver 3 to 6 races to find his rhythm and speed(a little more now because of testing limitations). Its the consistency that improves over the years but that too has a peak. It will stay there will stay there or fall as the driver ages. i.e Micheal Schumacher in his second coming he lost lot of points crashing into other cars and making a lot of silly mistakes. If there was no peak level than drivers would keep getting better and better each year. Imagine Alonso or Webber would have been more than a second faster than their respective less experienced teammates. Which isnt true. Similarly when People say Vettel will only get better as he ages, it not true. I believe he has already peaked like Kimi and Alonso. What is important is how long Vettel can stay at the top. I mean remaining at top doesnt imply winning races or WDC its means extracting the max from what’s at his disposal without losing motivation and losing consistency.

FYI last years Ferrari was a lot like this years lotus it dint have one lap speed which hindered it during qualification but over a race distance it was lethal. That along with the best starting/clutch system made it the best race car on sunday(OVER THE SEASON). If you watch any of the races of last year again, you’ll see that both cars picking up other cars who had qualified above them. All those cars including the Redbull seemed to start running out of grip before the Ferrai.

“the difference between a great driver and a good one increases the worse is the car they are driving” If a car and a driver end up second in the championship then the car isnt as bad as people imagined or are lead to believe. If Alonso was indeed so good that he could pull of miracles in a bad car than he would have surely won or finished higher in any of these championship 2008(5th), 2009(9th), 2011(4th) championships. If Ferrari and Alonso have finished 2nd in 2010, 2012 and 2013 it means their car was capable of finishing 2nd. Same way Vettel too is as good as his car lets him be and the same could be said about all the other Champions.

Great drivers maximize the opportunities available to them. Yet some time great drivers let themselves down. In 2006 if Micheal Schumacher hadnt picked up a penalty for parked his Ferrari to disrupt qualifying in Monaco he might have been closer to becoming the WDC in that year instead of Alonso. Similarly if Alonso hadnt picked up a penalty for ruining Hamilton’s qualification in Hungary in 2007. He would have definitely finished in 2nd instead of 4th and picked up 3 more points to become the WDC that year. But these if’s and buts dont change History. Vettel is 4 times WDC because he was in a dominant car just like Alonso, Hamilton Kimi and the rest before them. But these guys still have to fight for the championship and grab every opportunity that comes their way. People just assume that either Perez or Hulkenberg would win 4 WDC in the Redbull. What one doesnt assume is the consistency, focus and adaptability needed to archive that. If any other driver could manage the Pirelli tyres as well as Vettel or adopt their driving style to exploit the blown diffuser as much as Vettel has is pure speculation. Next year both Alonso and Vettel will have new challenges both from a technical Perspective and both from their new Teammates. It will be really exciting enlightening to see how the season pans out. Cheers


“That car was capable of finishing second ONLY in Alonso’s hands. Whoever thinks any other driver would have been able to fight against Red Bull-Vettel in those Ferraris, is lying to himself.”

It wouldn’t have beaten Vettel/Red Bull in the 2nd half of the season, but let’s not pretend the car was a Force India. And Vettel would have done better in points, especially in the first half of the year.


You are right, the points comparison really tells something. I agree on that.

“That along with the best starting/clutch system made it the best race car on sunday”

Not even close to being the best, sorry.

“If a car and a driver end up second in the championship then the car isnt as bad as people imagined or are lead to believe”

“If Ferrari and Alonso have finished 2nd in 2010, 2012 and 2013 it means their car was capable of finishing 2nd”

That car was capable of finishing second ONLY in Alonso’s hands. Whoever thinks any other driver would have been able to fight against Red Bull-Vettel in those Ferraris, is lying to himself.

But reading this last post of yours, I think overall we agree. Let’s see how next year pans out. But I can already tell you what I think: Alonso is going to destroy Kimi. You might desagree, but in 12 months we will know if I was right. I am sure about it, but if I am wrong I will have no problem to aknowledge it!


Only next year we will definitely know if Massa was any different from pre crash to post crash. When Kimi and Alonso are in the same car.

One thing we know for sure is that after his crash his results havent been as consistent as before his crash. While Alonso has won 11 times partnering Massa. Massa has no victories. And more importantly while Alonso has had had 42 podiums in their years together Massa has finished on the podium only 8 times. Compare that to his pre crash tally of 11 wins and 28 podiums in the same period definitely. Remember we are comparing drivers in the same car so you get a better comparison . In the two years he partnered Kimi he had 9 wins to kimi’s 8 and 20 podiums to kimi’s 21. It doesnt take a genius to figure out that Massa was no where near his limit as he was before his crash.

In fact compare the above ratios of 11:0 and 42:8(21:4) to Vettel and Webbers win and podium finishes ratio for the same period. Its 38:9 for wins and 53:32 for Podiums. While Alonos has 5.25 podiums for every podium Massa has. Vettel only has 1.65 podiums extra for each one March has. For that matter Kimi had only 1.05 podiums extra for every podium Massa had. Kimi cant be that bad can he?

If Webber was so bad He wouldnt have been Ferrari’s first choice for 2013(they do know what they are doing and wouldnt sign an idiot) And Mark Webber has beaten Rosberg as his teammate(Those days rookies had 3 to 5 times mileage the experience drivers get due to unlimited testing and were up to speed very fast it was very evident by Rosberg Setting the fastest lap of the race in his very first race and from Hamilton nearly winning the WDC in the subsequent year) And Webber was about 1/10 faster than Rosberg who is around 1/10 slower than Hamilton. Thus Hamilton and Webber would be evenly matched. Hamilton and Alonso were evenly matched with Hamilton faster over one lap and Alonso more consistent over the races. Vettel has a 2/10 advantage over Webber. Even if you take that 2/10th away he would be easily able to match Hamilton over a lap and more importantly be consistent enough to match Alonso over a race distance.


I’ll try to explain this, let’s see if I do it properly. You can not base yor argumentation on a comparison on podium finishes and wins between two drivers driving a Red Bull and two drivers driving a Ferrari. It is not a good comparison. As an example:

Webber finishes two places behind Vettel. Vettel wins the race comfortably in the fastest car. Both of them get the same number of podiums: 1-1. Massa finishes also two places behind Alonso. Alonso finishes second behind Vettel, with the second fastest car. Alonso gets a podium finish while Massa doesn’t: 1-0. Reading the final podium score, you could think Webber did a better job than Massa, as he has the same number of podiums finishes than Vettel, while Massa has one less than Alonso. But the truth is that both Webber and Massa finished 2 places behind their teammates.

You can not count on wins and podium comparisons between drivers within two teams, if there exist a difference on performance between the two teams (quite big in the Red Bull and Ferrari case).

On the Massa vs Kimi and Massa vs Alonso, we will see next year what is the difference between Kimi and Alonso and then talk. But there is something you should not forget: the difference between a great driver and a good one increases the worse is the car they are driving. The 2007 and 2008 Ferraris were on another level compared to those Ferraris of the past few years. This also applies to the Vettel-Webber comparison: the difference between the two should be smaller driving a Red Bull than if they were driving a Ferrari.

Then on a last note, you assume Massa is a worse driver now than in 2007 and 2008. But on the other hand you assume Rosberg, Hamilton, Webber and Alonso are exactly the same drivers as they were 7 years ago, to a precision of less than a tenth of a second. Ah yes, Massa had an accident and the others not, but then again you are basing your argumentation on a medical aspect, so then you should go and ask the doctors. Sorry but your arguments are flawed.

Alexander supertramp

Heard the jury is still out on the whole `once in a generation talent`. But yeah,he definitely had the upper hand against mark..


Depends on who you think “the jury” is composed of. Current and former F1 drivers are not on the fence. OTOH, Hamilton fans will never be persuaded.


Thanks for another excellent report. I don’t recall it personally, but a friend mentioned that at SIlverstone in 2009 or ’10, when RBR took the only new front wing (after Vettel’s was damaged) off Webber’s car prior to the race, that Webber was actually a bit ahead on season points at the time. Is that true? If so, it would certainly indicate the environment they worked in. Also, the driver weight differential is worth more that a tenth according to all published data. But the bottom line must be that Vettel has matured greatly, and is truly exceptionally quick, if integrity-challenged.


You remember incorrectly. OR – actually – your friend does! Webber said to team that he doesn’t feel the difference between new and old wing and said that he doesn’t need it. Vettel said that he feels new wing better. Therefore new wing was given to Vettel. Afterwards Webber “forgot” this and started to play with media and fans who took this bite and chew it till today… bon appetite! Webber is GREATEST manipulator in F1. Far greater than spaniard!


If you research further you’ll find that Mark dint intend to race with that wing. But at the same time he dint want Vettel to use that wing because he knew that Wing

An unnamed ‘senior engineer’ at Red Bull said that Mark Webber did not find the new front wing any more effective than the old one and only wanted it back when there was one left.

The team official confessed he was surprised that Webber made a commotion when team-mate Sebastian Vettel was given his new-specification wing prior to qualifying for the British Grand prix.

“Throughout the period when he used the new wing, he complained that it did not work any better than the old one,” the engineer told Finland’s Turun Sanomat.

“Mark simply did not get a good feeling with it, but when there was only one left, Mark absolutely wanted to have it. He did not care about it at all when we still had two new wings.”

The engineer added that Vettel ‘immediately liked’ the new wing when he ran it in practice.

“We believe that the team management’s decision was well-reasoned and logical.”


I lost a lot of respect for MW for that childish behaviour. That combined with his whining to the (british) press afterwards that he had been hard done by. The facts clearly show MW was in that instance manipulative and only relating half truths.


Sorry, 115-103


Before Silverstone 2010 Vettel was ahead of Webber on points 113-103.


Actually, upon reading the stats my first reaction was he was closer to Vettel than I thought!

Mark is a very decent F1 driver. He just came up against an all time legend at the peak of his powers.

His performance is equivalent to what Berger did against Senna, or Rubens did against Schumacher in my view.


berger and barrichello won races when their cars were good enough to win, webber didn’t win a single race in 2013.


Thats because Vettel did not make a single mistake.

Look at it this way Webber beat Vettel twice in qualifying and both times he had to take pole position to beat him, that is the level at which Vettel was operating this season gone by.


“Actually, upon reading the stats my first reaction was he was closer to Vettel than I thought!”

What?! Wow… Considering the data shows light years separate them, I shudder to think what you must have thought the gap was!

That one of the biggest teammate dominations at the front end of the field in history. It makes Barrichello’s Ferrari time and Coulthard’s McLaren time look good.


mmm… not too bad for a number 2 driver.


webber should have been the test driver at red bull because he wasn’t good enough to be a number 2 driver.


Did he steal your girlfriend?

I can’t recall as much negative comment from one poster in a single thread on this site, and I have not got to the end yet.


why would he want to steal my girlfriend?

i have nothing against webber i am only comparing his performance against other drivers and i don’t think that is not allowed.


Actually it’s pretty bad for even a No2.

Barrichello and Coulthard would have done a lot better overall.

Reading back, it’s a shock RBR kept him on really.

He’s damn lucky he’s got those 9 GP wins frankly. Having near 100 races of the absolute (or near absolute) best equipment and having 9 wins is pretty terrible. Not even double figures in 5 years.


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