F1 Winter Break
Sebastian Vettel Disobeys Red Bull Team Orders To Take Malaysia Win
Scuderia Ferrari
Posted By:   |  24 Mar 2013   |  1:46 pm GMT  |  1,138 comments

Sebastian Vettel has won a tense Malaysian Grand Prix after edging out Red Bull team mate Mark Webber with a close move late in the race, after Webber had been told to turn down his engine and drive to the finish.

As Vettel attacked on lap 46 of 56, the pair almost collided several times, but the German squeezed through for the win.

Vettel apologised to Webber, but the Australian did not say that he accepted it, instead commenting that Red Bull management “protects” Vettel. Team boss Christian Horner meanwhile confirmed that Vettel had “taken things into his own hands” and disobeyed orders.

It was Vettel’s 27th career win, equalling Sir Jackie Stewart, but it was not one to celebrate as Vettel acknowledged,

“I did a big mistake today,” he said. “I think we should have stayed in the positions that we were. I didn’t ignore it on purpose but I messed up in that situation and obviously took the lead which, I can see now he’s upset, but yeah, I want to be honest at least and stick to the truth and apologise.”

But on a day when likely main title rival Fernando Alonso scored no points after crashing out on the second lap, Vettel knew that with the difference between first and second place at seven points, he did not want to gift them to Alonso.

The spat overshadowed all other stories from the day, including Lewis Hamilton taking his first podium for Mercedes in third place. Here too there was some controversy as Nico Rosberg was told not to pass Hamilton in the closing stages as the Englishman struggled with fuel consumption. Unlike Vettel, Rosberg obeyed.

After a pre-race downpour the Grand Prix begun in intermediate conditions and looked from the out-set to be a strategically dominated race that would be dictated by the cross over point to dry tyres. And this came to fruition when Vettel pitted a lap too early and handed the race lead to a fast starting Webber.

The Australian had made a contrasting start to last weekend and found himself in second position by the second lap. This was helped by the damaged Ferrari of Fernando Alonso that tagged Vettel in to turn 1 and subsequently had his front-wing fold underneath him at the same point on the following lap. That put the Spaniard out of the race and dented his Championship hopes at an early stage.

On a drying track, Vettel pitted for slick tyres too early. By staying out Webber jumped him and led from Vettel after the first set of pit stops they were joined for the battle of the race lead by the Mercedes pairing of Hamilton and Nico Rosberg. And it remained in that order until the final ten laps as Vettel and Webber came very close to the pit wall, with Vettel coming out on top. It is the 27th race win of his career, moving him in to the World Championship lead, and putting him on a par with Sir Jackie Stewart.

In an eventful race that harked back to the Summer of 2010, Vettel asked his Red Bull team to move Webber out of the way as he was “too slow” and there was a very cold atmosphere between the Red Bull drivers as they took to the podium. It is sure to be a result that will divide opinion, with some saying that this is the kind of determination you need to be a multiple World Champion and be ranked amongst the greats.

After being within a couple of seconds of one another at the mid-point the two Mercedes cars dropped back from the Red Bull pairing and got involved in their own battle in the closing laps. Interestingly, Rosberg also asked to be let past and take this place but he was firmly told by Team Principal Ross Brawn to maintain position and bring the cars home.

There was an amusing and slightly ironic moment for Hamilton when he stopped in the McLaren box at his first pit stop. Luckily for Mercedes he did not lose too much time.

Behind the top four was another strong performance for Felipe Massa and the sole Ferrari.  He had a relatively quiet race after losing out at the start and dropping back from his second place start. He had aimed to complete the race in three stops – contrary to the four of the cars ahead – but was forced in to a late stop when he had a lot of space to drop back in to.

Lotus had a contrasting result to last weekend with Kimi Raikkonen spending much of the race stuck behind a number of cars and becoming frustrated. Nevertheless, he ended the race in seventh place – just behind team mate Romain Grosjean – and gained some vital points for the Enstone squad.

Completing the top ten was Nico Hulkenberg, Sergio Perez and Jean-Eric Vergne with all three having a good race. Hulkenberg was one of Raikkonen’s main competitors and illustrated good pace throughout. Perez, meanwhile, had a lonely race and chose to pit on the penultimate lap for a set of medium tyres to claim the fastest lap.

There were some notable retirees apart from Alonso as both Force India cars had a troubled day with a number of long pit stops before retiting both cars.

Jenson Button was having a very promising performance for his struggling McLaren team in fifth place when he also retired late in the race.

Finally, Jules Bianchi continued his impressive start to the his rookie season by ending the race in thirteenth place and thirty-four seconds ahead of Charles Pic behind.

1. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 1h38m56.681s
2. Mark Webber Red Bull + 4.298s
3. Lewis Hamilton Mercedes + 12.181s
4. Nico Rosberg Mercedes + 12.640s
5. Felipe Massa Ferrari + 25.648s
6. Romain Grosjean Lotus + 35.564s
7. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus + 48.479s
8. Nico Hulkenberg Sauber + 53.044s
9. Sergio Perez McLaren + 1m12.357s
10. Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso + 1m27.124s
11. Valtteri Bottas Williams + 1m28.610s
12. Esteban Gutierrez Sauber + 1 lap
13. Jules Bianchi Marussia + 1 lap
14. Charles Pic Caterham + 1 lap
15. Giedo van der Garde Caterham + 1 lap
16. Max Chilton Marussia + 2 laps
17. Jenson Button McLaren + 3 laps
18. Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso + 5 laps

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Craig in Manila

Okay, I can sense that this is gonna be a cracker of a forum whilst this race gets digested so I'm just gonna say :

- Well done to Lewis (I'm not much of a fan normally) for having the class to mention Nico on the podium and for being so humble about their situation re team orders etc.

- In the final 10 laps of the race, did RBR actually do anything to try to get Seb to move back to second position ?


Bad for F1, just makes it harder for the fans to enjoy when contrived results come into any sport. I have heard it called match-fixing and apparently people can even get fined!!! Fancy that!!


Spot on !!!! That's why an Australian betting company have decided to refund any money paid on Webber winning the race as it can be viewed as match - fixing.

If this was a horse race the jockey would be suspended and the owners fined if not disqualified from racing.

I say no team order regardless of standings because F1 is about individual drivers trying to win with the machinery they have and they should be free to race to the end.

The team picks up the same glory for a win regardless of the driver.

It was an absolute sham that 1,2,3,and 4th place were under the same orders as Niko is in the same boat as Webber.


I think it's time for Mark Webber to stop being Mr Nice Guy and think only of himself and the chance to bank points for the title.

It's clear Red Bull favour Vettel and put Webber on the side lines.

Hopefully Mark takes this as a wake up call that Seb will do him no favours in the persuit of another title.

This year will be Mark's only chance to have a real go at the title again and he needs to fight back with the same attitude as Vettel."Take no prisoners".

Remember the Senna - Prost battle when they were in the same team.


It seems that RBR is favoring Webber now and has forgotten who brought them the TRIPLE DOUBLE!!!! Maybe its time to move on Seb and go to a team that can treat you like a TRIPLE WORLD CHAMPION!!!!!

Come on Webber, you are no 2. It is written on your car, your cap, your race suit, including everything with your name on it!!!!


But not in his contract.


Horner has already said that he didn't believe Seb not doing it on purpose and felt that he'd just ignore the order, again.


I expect the little prince and Helmut Marko would expect Mark to push him over the line in the last race of the season to win the championship.

Our little German friend may be a 3X WDC and have a driven passion to win, but I still cant bring myself to like the man.


Is it possible tog get telemetry and clear up the situation here? Were Red Bull trying to save engine, tyres or fuel and how is the code passed to the drivers to hold position?

If people knew this then it would end further speculation and the actions ,intent and displeasure by the team would be confirmed.


Regardless of how anyone tries to spin this, (particularly Vettel supporters) this episode has hurt Vettel's integrity quite badly, without any question whatsoever.

Yes, he's young & hungry; yes, he wants to win at all costs; yes we love racers who give no quarters; yes, your team mate is the competitor you most want to beat; yes, he's apologised for his indiscretion; etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum...

The bottom line is, at the end of the day, this is only a 'Sport', and in Sport, there really is such a thing as a gentleman...in that being recognised as 'gentleman' is still a most priceless virtue. Just ask Sir Stirling Moss.

This is very reminiscent of the sort of heated, intense & contentious rivalry (b/w Gilles Villenuve & Didier Pironi) that indirectly led Villeneuve to his death. Let's hope this brewing Vettel/Webber rivalry doesn't end quite as tragically, for Webber...


It is simple, webber should never ever support vettel and I am sure that he will do everything for other people to win, but not vettel.


He already does that


Well, what I don't understand is why suddenly red bull have favoured Webber this race. Seems very odd.


If you look at the WCC standings for RBR, you can use it as a barometer to see how high Mark has been allowed to climb in a race.

After Melbourne RBR were concerned by Ferrari's result hence giving Mark max support to assist in bringing home maximum points for the WCC.

China will see a fired up Mark being painted as a trouble maker, and finishing off the podium still with reasonable points.

You have seen a race strategy many times, well this is RBR's season strategy.


It's not about favouring one driver over the other. It's about favouring the result for the team overall. A battle between the two of them could have killed their tyres and left them open to those behind (I would think if RB were clearly struggling, Rosberg might have been released to race), or worse led to a collision. The team had discussed what would happen in this situation, and they were told on track to just hold position and cruise to the end. If their positions had been reversed to begin with, it would have been Webber having to hold behind Vettel.


Red Bull normally let there drivers race each other until the final pit stops are over and then they are asked to hold position if the 2 cars are in the lead. What happened here is that the team didn't stuff up Webber's race enough to get Vettel back into the lead cleanly at the last pit stop. Which in the end Vettel couldn't handle. My guess is then Webber was told not to fight back and that is how the race finished. If you look at the tyres on both cars at the end. Webber should have been in a far better position for the last 5 laps and should have been able to pass Vettel to take the win. But this could have put Vettel at risk after a tough fight to the 2 Mercedes in the final laps. At this point Mercedes would have let Rosberg past Hamliton and Red Bull could have lost a easy 1-2.


VET was wrong, there is no excuse and no reasonable argument against this position. However, were F1 not cursed with ridiculous Pirelli tyres these guys would not be strolling around 8 tenths off their maximum pace. They would be more certain of the drivers ultimate pace around them and they could all drive accordingly. The races are being decided, not by team orders which quite rightly come into play later in the race for TEAMS to protect their investment, but in the strategy rooms. I curse they day Pirelli came into F1 (I realise they are doing what is asked of them but THEY make the tyres ultimately). I, for one, would never ever buy a Pirelli road tyre for my car on sheer bloody principle. How they think F1 is a good marketing venture for them is beyond me. If I buy a tyre for my car I want to know they'll last through a trip to the corner shop 😉


i agree totally on the effect the tyres have on the racing, but there's the counter argument everyone forgets...

if the tyres allow flat out racing with no deg, the fastest car will always win in f1 - there'll be no wheel to wheel racing at all...


I actually have/had Pirelli tyres on my car. I can say thier road tyres reflect thier race tyres......they don't last long at all!! Not good value for the price they ask for them.


Good point here by Wayne, how does Pirelli come out in marketing terms after 2 seasons where all we listen to is tyres, tyres... Or it is a perfect example of negative remembrance in which a bad product raises consumer awareness but even then you keep the brand in your mind. We know road going Pirelli tyres are not long-lasting but what about young guys influenced by F-1 marketing. I think that's the target.


on a triumph daytona 675 i can heartily recommend pirelli - sticky boots indeed!


-F1 Supremo says Lewis Hamilton asked him to find a new team

-Two racing teams instructed their drivers not to race after 3 quarters of the race

-One disobeyed and one didnt

As a fan, I dont care about Vettel or Webber. I just wonder how this sport is so doctored. The next time, a driver says "It isnt over until the last lap", I wont believe it.

Racing fans should feel cheated.


Time to do away with Pit to car radio I think and get back to boards hanging from the pit wall. Imagine a race where drivers have to think for themselves and have no radio..it works for the 2 wheelers and it used to work beautifully for F1 in the pre radio days.


why is there any disrepute?

f1 racing teams can agree, decide and plan anything they wish - and drivers (and the pit and pitwall crew) can execute anything they wish - within the rules.

in this case, seb decided he's going to take the victory. he's obviously a bit of a loose cannon and not a team-player for doing so, but damn it if it didn't result in some of the finest wheel to wheel racing i've seen since lewis and jenson went hammer and tongs a few laps after vettel and webber collided in turkey 2010.

why would anyone complain at this?! it's like saying the midfielder who scored a winning goal shouldn't have done so because the plan was for the star striker to do it.

enjoy the fact they went racing!

as for merc, i can understand this too - rosberg played the flipside to the coin above, effectively passing the ball to the star striker in the hope one day he might be given the opportunity himself.

it's a team sport - but the driver's are what make it fun and exciting 🙂


"The next time, a driver says “It isnt over until the last lap”, I wont believe it."

i completely agree. in my opinion, the sport has been brought into disrepute.

James Allen, will the forumla one body 'supposedly in charge' do something about the duisgraceful behaviour of these teams to prevent any further disrepute? Isnt there a rule against bringing the sport into disrepute?


Why should Webber have to leave the team that he helped develop and build from Jaguar to RBR with the help of Coulthard and Newey. Demote Vettel to Torro Rosso, he won there before and if he is so good I am sure he could win there again.


Well, as long as I've been a fan of F1 (since about 1971 - in the seventies and eighties I mostly attended races in Canada some at Watkins Glen) there have been team orders - it's part of the sport - to make sure that drivers don't take each other out when they are in top positions. It is a TEAM sport, something Vettel has no respect for. Vettel just HAS to win - screw everyone else, and although F1 drivers are bred that way he only thinks of himself and not the team. He is the problem here and the team radio conversations (at least the ones we were allowed to hear) were clear in the fact that Vettel was to hold back - even Horner got on the radio telling Vettel not to be silly before he took Webber on corner two.

I hope Webber continues to follow the rules as he always does, goes after Vettel with all his heart and then changes teams for next season.

Vettel is a crybaby and very few of the drivers even have respect for the "champion". Champions don't act this way - but they do get away with it.

If it wasn't team racing - each team would only have one car and one driver.


It is a team sport; so how is a team trying to maximize points to try and get a lead in the Constructors Title (Which is worth Hundreds of Millions of Prize Money) rather than pander to the ambitions of one driver?

The WCC is more important to the team than the WDC, sure they like to have the double....but Im sure the sponsors would rather the team have success as a whole.

Vettel seems to be putting his own ambition ahead of the team....when he should be doing what is best for the team, not himself.


To have an unbiased view:

I was disgusted for the fact that after the last pit stop, the two red bulls fought close with mark establishing the lead, only for seb to mug mark a couple of laps later. Had it been for mark not turning down his engine mode, and seb passing him, it would have been fair but as it didn't happen like that, we are all including the red bull team totally unhappy. Seb was shocked to see newey being stern to him in the podium backstage, little realizing his own folly.

But on the other side of the coin, all can agree that it was thrilling to watch those two battle in the track and the acrimony act develop in the podium. Who was sitting at the edge of their seats watching nico restraining behind lewis?? that was an anti-climax!


Would you make a 3X WDC move over for your #2?



RBR confirmed, they had agreed, that the positions after the final round of pit stops would be the way the team finished the race. If they want to favour their #1 driver they should not make such arrangements.

To be fair to SV, he was only following the lead of his employers, who set the tone within the team, when they reneged on the Resource Restriction Agreement (allegedly).


Horner's job is to ensure he gets two cars netting maximum points as often as possible. He doesn't care which car wins the race, as long as

- team unity is preserved (ie it continues to be a team that develops a car well, doesn't have drivers taking each other out etc)

- hopefully one of them amasses enough points to win the drivers' title.

Webber is in many ways an ideal #2 driver - in many other teams (indeed, in this one until Vettel arrived) he comfortably could be a #1 - he's consistent, fast, mostly plays team rules, does media well, and very rarely has an 'off' day that results in few points.

For sure Helmut has a point that perhaps he doesn't challenge for wins as often as possible (for whatever reason), but in terms of overall team harmony, he's a very, very good signing.

What's the chance that during that thoughtful 15 laps Webber decided that he's going to race the pants off Seb for the remainder of the year, meanwhile seeking a -different- seat for next year?

What if Vettel has forced Horner's hand to take Riccardo or Vergne for 2014 through this action? Neither seems ready; Christian might do better to organise a swapsie with Massa and Webber, or at worst see what Ron wants for Perez.

For the sake of the meaning of the word Management, Horner needs to get Vettel under control, or risk seeing his primadonna upset the apple cart.


You can sure as hell bet that Webber will be racing Vettel in every race from now on and will not listen if he gets told to hold station behind him, and why should he....Vettel can apologise all he likes but his actions speak louder than words.

Webber was told to turn his engine down and drive to the finish and did as instructed, but Vettel had a massive brain fade and let his own ambition come before the team in only the 2nd race.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that even though this has an individual award, that is also a Team Sport, it's not a free for all anymore because now there is too much money involved to have Senna/Prost repeats.

Its just like Massa being told to move over for Alonso, or having his engine seal broken to give Alonso a better Grid position. I saw all those incidents as bringing the sport into disrepute as much as this was.

Horner as principal has to maximize the points that the team gets out of races above racers; and at this point Webber was the one in front near the end and to ensure they both came home for all the points they made a team call....rather than risk these two going at and having another Turkey moment.

Either way, Webber needs to just screw team orders and play the game Vettel wants to play. Obviously he values his own glory above that of the team, so Mark should as well.


Yeah I kinda agree except that its not like Webber hasn't ignored team orders before.


My opinion is that Seb would have never ever done that move if he was not sure that RB would accept it. I would even think that it was agreed before the race. Mark was ordered to turn down the engine in order Seb to overtake him without too much trouble. What they did not predict was that it would not go that easy, as Mark does not give up easily, and that the whole move will bring the safety of both cars in question. Mark said that he was thinking a lot in the last 15 laps. I hope that Mark will pay back RB and Seb. If the situation is reversed, Seb will not let Mark have the win to pay him back for the "mistake". And that is what a good sportsman, a person who really believes in what he says would do in such situation.


@Sebee - you mean a 3x WC that relied on the assistance of Webber, Ricciardo and Vergne to take the 2012 title, yet can't toe the party line when it doesn't suit him? This is one of the lowest acts in GP history, akin to Pironi/Villeneuve. At least Schumacher was a team man!

Craig in Manila

My point (if unclear) was :

It's rather hypocritical of Mr.Horner to say that Seb was wrong to overtake when, in fact, RBR then did nothing to "undo" Seb's mistake.


Conspiracy Theory #30! Read about it in latest analysis post. 🙂


Exactly. Horner et al can say any words they want but their actions (or lack of) say it all.

Deja vu.


great points Craig...myself i've never been a big fan of this team-order "hold station" business...far too early in the season for those shenanigans. Webber in the past has been faster than Seb and told to cool it and being a gentleman he has. not impressed with what Seb did...but please team principals...stop being such sissy's and let the boys race for heaven's sake! Nico should have been allowed to sweep past Hamilton...let's let the fastest end up at the front. the momentum of both Nico and Mark has been curtailed...not fair so early in the season especially. i don't like artifically controlled results and team orders (in the pursuit of fairness) should NEVER be instituted until one driver is out of mathmatical chances to win the WDC. cheers, all! ps. never been a big Hammy fan but i'm sure liking the ''new'' one a lot more!!



also to note that, horner tried to bring up last year situation where Webber tried the same thing...

that alone suggests that they actually are happy with this result and it was disgusting to try to even things out


Yes, they should have told him to move over since his pass was flagrantly against team orders. But Horner knows he has no authority over Vettel, with Marko skulking about.


No, I wouldn't move him over to let the team #2 driver ahead. However, if I was that said number 2 driver, Id punt that turd Vettel into the Barrier any chance I had for the next 3 events. Watch your arse Vettel, Aussies have long memories.


I would if my "#2" deserved to be in front, which he clearly did


If you think this is a question even worth asking, best for us not to even attempt answering it. Although, you might be interested in H Marko's words following the GP - "we do not have preferred drivers like Mercedes do".


RBR tell the world every time they can, they have no number 1 number 2 drivers policy.


RBR team always says that they don't have No.1 driver and that they are allowed to race. They are disgrace for the sport!


For sure I wouldn't.

Of course, I would never pretend not to have a hierarchy on my team, with a #1 and a #2 driver.


....and team orders make a mockery of racing and cheat the ones watching the race.


Seems to me that Vettel has got the Michael Schumacher disease; by which I mean he doesn't understand sportsmanship--he thinks it's war.

His behaviour today makes a mockery of the 'team orders' rule. The incidents in both Mercedes and Red Bull suggest we should revert to a ban on team orders--at least then everyone would know where we stand and the drivers could make their own minds up how they're going to respond to whatever information they're fed.


The baby-faced assassin. Quite ruthless from the boy, in a manner that - even given past tensions - was dramatic. Speaking as a neutral viewer with no driver bias, I actually like him more because of it.

Two races in and we have fireworks already. Great race.


-1. Disagree.

While it looks like the boy was racing, it was really a sucker punch. No respect for doing *that*

To me, Schumacher isn't "the greatest" because of the way he behaved in getting his WDC. Vettel is going the same way at degrading his successes.


So who is the greatest.. Senna was jst as ruthless as schumacher, the greats of the sport all have something in common.... They will do anything to win,its part of their make up and no accident they are multiple champions.


Hear Hear!


+1 JimmiC.

Vettel made the race exiting and made it a great race that we will all remember for some time. Without it the race wouldn't have been as entertaining for us fans and thats what we want, entertainment.

Vettel was faster, so therefore deserved to win.


It's a pity your definition of "faster" doesn't quite match the data.

Maybe you believed Vettel's complaints during the race (over the radio) that he was faster than Mark, yet immediately after began dropping time to Webber.

Vettel blew a sizeable lead on inters when he stopped early for slicks. Webber was "faster" that is why he made up such a deficit to lead after the first stops.

Webber led more laps of the race than Vettel. Vettel tried to catch and pass Webber for the entire race up to that point (on equal footing) and was unable to.

Webber had a lead of 3 seconds at the time when Vettel pitted for his final stop.

When both stops were completed Webber was STILL in the lead - albeit with a much smaller lead than before the final stop. But he defended his position fairly for the outlap.

Webber was ordered to turn the engine down and limit use of KERS do so. Vettel was given the same order and did not. That is why he made the pass stick.

It took Webber nursing the car UNDER INSTRUCTION FROM THE TEAM for Vettel to get past.

There is no "faster" about it.


Vettel was clearly faster, he was all over Webber's gearbox, and this allowed both Hamilton and Rosberg to close in on both Red Bulls.

Vettel was better on his tyres, and made the softs last longer than Webber did on the hard set.

Vettel easily got within 1 second, and his engineer told him "we're only half distance" i.e. be patient, you will have more chances later. Vettel backed off to save his tyres and get out of the turbulent air as he could see that Mercedes pace was dropping off at the end of their stints.

Vettel was patient for the whole race, Webber held him up, caused Vettel to lose a position to Hamilton and almost to Rosberg. Vettel responded, overtook Hamilton and went after Webber.

Make no mistake Webber was fighting very aggressively and turned on full power settings, as can be seen by his straight line speed. Vettel could not even pass him with DRS. Vettel pulled off a stunning overtake around the outside of turn 4. End of story.


absolutely a top response. couldn't have put it better myself.


Vettel was only faster because he didn't turn down the engine like Mark did - who knows if he would be faster if Mark didn't - he certainly couldn't catch up to to Mark for most of the race when they both had the opportunity to actually race. . Stolen win I say - I have no issues with letting them fight and may the best man win but it wasn't a fair fight in this case.

Shame Seb Shame.


Was it really a fair fight if Webber had turned down his engine?


What you are saying would be correct if it was a fair fight. But Marks car was turned down so really Sebastian was just a bully. Today was the first time since Turkey 2010 that I have disagreed with a call by Sebastian.


@JimmiC - let me get this straight: The RBR drivers have an agreement about finishing the race in position. Webber has turned down his engine, on command of the team, and Vettel, against specific orders and the team mates agreement, jumps him and steals the race. Vettel's actions are despicable and dishonest; who will ever trust him again? He knew what he was doing was wrong on many levels and still did it. His 'explanation' and 'apology' were both self serving and lying. Instead of increasing my respect for him Vettel, by his actions, has made me actively dislike him. I think the team should not let him race the next race.


Vettel raced and got the victory. Webber obeyed and got second. That's the end of it.

Good on Vettel for telling the team to get stuffed with team orders while he was racing. That's what I want to see. I wish he hadn't apologized afterwards.

The racer won, and no F1 fan can have a problem with that.

As a side note: why did Webber try to defend so strongly when he knew that Vettel wasn't allowed to overtake? He tried his best and still got out-raced...


So next time Vettel tells his team he's coming in to change tyres I suggest they don't and show him what it means to be part of a team.



the only reason seb was in a position to challenge mark at the end was because mark had turned his engine down. Seb did not.

Hardly fair


I'm sure Vettel and Webber were told to turn down their engine power for a reason. If there's any justice in this world, in not following the team orders to turn down his engine, he'll have over-stressed it. He won the race but just maybe his decision will come back to bite him later in the season.


Lets hope he has stressed the engine


they say luck will out... which should mean Vettel will have an engine failure 'cos he refused to turn it down today. Racing for a championship is about more than winning one race - especially if an engine must last 3 races.



I thought webber had no rear-view mirrors!

Seb like Senna Imola 89! great


""The racer won, and no F1 fan can have a problem with that.

As a side note: why did Webber try to defend so strongly when he knew that Vettel wasn’t allowed to overtake? He tried his best and still got out-raced…""

You mean the racer won when he passed a team mate who had turned his engine down after the team told him too. Yeh, real racer there. I cannot see any dignity in a win when you beat your team mate who has one armed tied behind his back. Don't think he was out raced there.

Scuderia McLaren



Ironically, it was the best I've seen Vettel fight.


mmmm so Vettel's best fight is against a team mate whose engine is turned down and told he won't be challenged...?


You can't determine who fought best without knowing the engWebbine and KERS settings. Given Webber's outright pace on the red tyre all weekend vs Vettel, and Vettel running white scrubs that had an additional two more laps on them at the change, who would think that Webber didn't have the pace to either fight off Vettel or take him again. I believe Webber was snookered by his contract and he did a mighty job fighting Vettel on the settings he was allowed by team orders.


Right! When the other guy has one hand tied behind his back.

What part of dialling back on the engine don't you get.

With all his success, Vettel is weaving a legacy of doubt about his true abilities.


While I am a driver fan (rather than a team fan) I always consider F1 to be a team sport (although I am not a big fan of team orders). I find "taking matters into ones own hands" to justify ones own ego while putting the team result at risk extremely disrespectful to hundreds of people who work long hours to make the team successful. I would not accept the justifications that somebody is being a "racing driver". Vettel lost a lot in my eyes today. "Apology not accepted."


So, just to check - you like someone more when they break a trust with their team mate and disobey their employer? Why, because he is an F1 driver it is ok to have no honour or sportsmanship? They can do anything they like to win - is that it?

These two had an agreement before the race started. I hate the idea that people idolise those that act despicably just because they are a celebrity. What he did was plain wrong, even he knows it on some level,

It was wrong for the team also. How does Webber react later in the season when he cannot trust the guy he is driving at 200mph against? If he is in front he cannot trust VET to play the team game so he has to push and wear out his tyres or they collide. If he is behind he does not listen to the team because he knows his team-mate will not - so he pushes, they both wear out their tyres out or they collide.


Well, if you are in favor of fixing the races, I'm in favor of abolishing the F1. They shall pack and go home! Not interested in BS! And I'm sure many viwers see it the same way.


There is no trust there - never was. I suspect Webber was expecting an attack all along. The deliberate disobeying of a team order is the wider bone of contention.

Just to be clear I think what Seb did was, as I said in my original post, completely ruthless. That's not the same as me saying he did a good thing. The reason I like him more after this incident is because it is the last fragment of this easy going, humble persona removed. Seb's crossed the rubicon now and shown himself to be a winner, at all costs. Despite everything that has come before - the Silverstone front wing mess, crashing into Webber - we have a different World Champion this morning. The dryness in his voice when he asked for Webber to be moved aside was laced with contempt.

Scuderia McLaren


I like Vettel more also because he raced.

Vettel just did to webber what webber tried to do to Vettel in the British GP 2011 despite team orders then also.


Webber and all his fans should stop whining. Where was his support in the last race in Brasil when Vettel's Championship was at stake and he needed every point? Nowhere! Webber finished 4th, Vettel 6th! I haven't seen neither Sebastian complaining nor Horner saying a word. Besides this is supposed to be F1 racing not cruising. It's also a shame that Rosberg degraded himself to the number 2. Develope some back bone guys, points win championships, nothing else. I'm not a fan of Schumacher but he learned early enough to ignore critics.


"Please tell Mark, I'm racing him" - if that was Vettel's respond then I would agree with you. Otherwise, considering his experience and all his titles, that was a pity showing on Vettel's behalf.

Scuderia McLaren

Love the name- I am rooting for Kimi this year.

Good point about Vettel stating intent. His actions on track I think we're clear. Webber can't really claim surprise, but you are right. Vettel should have said "Nope, sorry boys, but I'm going for it."

Personally, I still think Webber was clear about what Vettel was doing.


Redbull had also 10 laps to tell Vettel what he did wrong and maybe Webber could have had that place back but they let it go to the very end and told him as he was getting on the podium... Mark should have been on to his engineers as Hamilton had done in the past with Button "I thought we were not race".. "are you sure he understands and is not going to attack"... Mark let it go until the very end.


Except Webber followed those orders.

Scuderia McLaren

Wrong. He didnt follow orders, Ge simply failed to do what Seb did. The world is angry cause Seb simply made it stick despite almost being put in the wall. Funnily enough, Webber was most vocal about Schuey doing that to Barri in Hungary a few years ago. Hypocrite. Happy to see that Seb kept his foot down and showed the size of his balls is a match for his talent.


Except he didn't race; it's fairly clear that he tricked his teammate.

The two raced aggressively and fairly after Webber's last pit stop, and Webber held on to the lead (despite being on colder tyres). The team then instructed both drivers to turn down their engine settings. Webber did so; Vettel deliberately ignored the instruction (as he later acknowledged), and effectively mugged his teammate for position.

I'm not a huge fan of team orders, but in a situation like this where the team had genuine doubts about the tyres ability to last the stresses of a battle to the finish, they are understandable. If a driver isn't going to follow them in these circumstances, then he owes the team and his teammate some notice of that.

Webber's and the team's surprise at Vettel's actions was blatantly obvious.

It is one thing refusing team orders; it is quite another to use your ignoring of a team instruction as a way to gain advantage over a teammate who is following the identical instruction.


Agree totaly.

If both race on equal terms, then no issue.

Webber turned his engine down, at the instruction of the team, only to be mugged from behind. A cowardly act.

I recall occasions where Webber has been told to back off, and has done so.

I like the taste of the drink, but RedBull has left a bitter taste in Webbers mouth !!


Excellent point????? At Silverstone Mark showed he was quicker then backed off, as per instructions from the team.

Seb simply disobeyed team orders and should be penalised for it.

It was absolutely nothing like Silverstone. Get the Seb blinkers off please,


this is the thing that happens when a person is feed with a silver spoon.They become a brat and act like that. Vettel was groomed for the sport he wouldnt understand what its like to have to really fight and earn something.

F1 is losing its way.

The tyres are making the sport so boring.

People like Alonso because he is the champion of the fans and vettel is the champion of the machine. He will never in my eyes be classed as the best ever.Win as many titles as you want


Because finishing 4 tenths behind your team mate is 'backing off' ?! I think you need to rewatch those final 5 laps or so Sir !


+1000. What Seb did was exactly what he tried to do in Turkey a couple of years ago, driving far too aggressively against his teammate. He's just lucky he didn't gift Lewis Hamilton another victory as he did then!


IN British GP 2011, Webber did not listen to team orders, he attacked Vettel until the final lap, and Vettel held him off and finished just ahead of Webber. Webber has never been a team player, and refuses to accept that Vettel is better than him, despite 3 world titles to Vettels name.

The definition of a team player is Massa, have a look at how he supported Alonso at the tail end of 2012, staying out longer on strategy, pushing webber to the outside, and giving Alonso the inside to overtake 2 positions in Brazil 2012 etc. Webber will never do this, and has constantly stated the he will never play a support role or listen to team orders, which is pretty selfish. So you get back what you put in Mr Webber.

To all the Vettel haters, one question, if it were Webber that defied team orders and overtook Vettel, would there be the same uproar, or would you call him a legend???


I think it's a bit weasely to do that and then be so apologetic afterwards. Like they say, NEVER APOLOGISE, NEVER EXPLAIN.

Man up and admit that you were dastardly.


Excellent point! x2


Indeed that's exactly what I thought of too. Red Bull were roundly slated after that race for preferential treatment of Vettel, who was already well in control of the championship. So quite why Mercedes aren't the bad gus today is puzzling, I can only put this down to driver bias from media/fans. Rosberg was evidently quicker and had the sufficent fuel to stay on it. I think we can assume Lewis has a preferential treatment clause in his contract.

Was Vettel right to ignore team orders, following the path of Webber and Button? Yes in my opinion. He's there to win, it's not sporting, it's not very nice and its not going to help his relationship with Mark, but I believe the greats in modern F1 would all have done the same. Senna, Prost, Schumacher and Alonso... Look at what they've got in common and the answer is titles. To be the best sometimes you have to be nasty.

F1 is a harsh world, and I think casual fans will struggle with the above. I do feel for Mark, but nice guys rarely finish first in F1.

One final point, the battles between the Red Bulls and Mercedes were great action, as a fan that's what I love to see, drivers going toe to toe in equal cars, hence my delight that Massa is also back on form.


oh thats right.. they would never do that.... they only take their team mates car instead...


@Bomber, you've got to be kidding about Piquet! The man who paid for bad press to be printed about Mansell's family to gain the upper hand?

Ther others you mention wouldn't have done it, I grant you, but we're talking modern F1 here. It's no gentlemans sport, it's a business. Just like other big sports. A shame yes, but also true!


Fangio, Clarke, Stewart, Graham Hill, Piquet, Fittipaldi would never have done what Vettel did.


Just because the so-called "greats" have acted like that in the past doesn't make it the right thing to do. Vetted can win all the world titles he wants but they will be hollow victories that no-one respects. And I wish he would stop putting up that finger at the end. He was not the best driver on the day. Mark had more than his measure and believed they were driving to team orders (and I am someone who is realistic about their existence in the sport - if I was paying $50M+ a year I would expect to call the shots to ensure a safe 1 - 2). Karma may bite Vettel on the backside at some point in the future as he took more life out of the engine than was needed.

What itnHAS done, though, is spiced this up a lot. Can't wait to see how it all plays out. However, I have my suspicion that Webber will suffer many mysterious mechanical gremlins and bad starts this year, particularly if he qualifies beside, or worse - dares to out-qualify, Vettel.


Overtake your team mate meanwhile he is driving according to team orders that you are not obeying is not racing.

You could or could not agree with team orders, but if one of them is under team orders and the other not, this is not real racing, this is an unfair advantage taken by one of them.

No honor in this days we are living...


In the 2011 British GP Webber ceased his attack on Vettel as soon as team orders were given.

Foolish diplomatic decision on Vettel's part. At any point in the future Vettel is leading and Webber is in 2nd place but has enough pace to pass, he most certainly will regardless of what the team orders. Vettel has just shown Webber that he has no respect for team procedures (multi 21) and now the gloves are definitely off. On the podium Webber's demeanor was just like Gilles Villenueve's after the 1982 Imola race.


I agree... Webber has stated over and over again that he will not listen to team orders to let Vettel win. Last year when Vettel was up for the title Massa helped Alonso a ton, but Webebr said no way to that....

I am not a fan of team orders at all. With that said... Mark cannot have it both ways. If he would have helped Vettel last year instead of racing him hard then I would say Vettel is in the wrong today.. However, he does not help so don't expect help today...


Excellent point!


you do know that webber´s car was tuned down during the race right? i think that is the most important part everyone is leaving out


it is not so excellent when both the drivers were asked to turn down the engines and run to finish, except the boy wonder chose to ignore it..

if that is excellent in your book, please use the word ever so rarely


No its not an excellent point. Unlike today, there was no agreement that both drivers had signed up to before the British GP, they sprung that on WEB mid race. This is very different if you think it through.


I'd have more respect for Vettel's move if he'd stood by his decision to race Webber. His apology after this race put me in mind of Schumacher's reaction after the 2002 Austrian GP: was it genuine contrition or a reaction to popular opinion?


I don't think Vettel was apologising for racing, more that he broke a gentleman agreement (multi 21). He was ok until the point that Webber joined him before the podium and said "Multi 21".. his demeanour changed after that. I don't fault Vettel, he raced. I was willing Rosberg to do the same with Hamilton. I don't want to see 1/4 race where the winner is already decided

Scuderia McLaren

Agree with you Alex. The apology is the only part that is wrong in my opinion. He should own his actions and not think the fans so stupid as to not know what happened. We know, and some of us are smart enough to remember that Webber does the same thing. He should just simply say that.

"live by the sword, die by the sword."


That is true. It'sore emotional when it's for a win. It could be viewed as fine as long as Seb fully expects Mark to teturn the favour from now on! Whereas Rosberg would hope his taking one for the team to one day be redeemed.



Good on Vettel he is the reigning world champion and play 2nd fiddle to Webber, I don't know what Horner's thinking, and lets make it clear Webber knew Seb was making the move he was under attack for over 2 laps and also Horner said they were on the same engine map, Redbull should never have made that order, Webber won't be winning the title.


James has any notice of the f1 paddock been given to footage of Webber flipping off Vettel during the race, it's circling around facebook in Australia


and an image as well:



I think that was Mark's version of the "Vettel Victory" finger!


I can't believe that Sky felt the need to censor it in a replay. It's not the first time we've seen drivers make such gestures (though it's been a good few years) and broadcasters have never seen the need to blockify it before.


broadcasters have never seen the need to blockify it before...

Is that the same as censorising? 🙂


Are you sure you didn't just invent it? 🙂


It's a specific method of censoring...


I'm sure Webber was just telling Vettel "Hey, I was supposed to be no. 1!"


Not sure if you're suggesting that the stewards should impose sanctions for such behaviour? If so then don't you think the stewards have more important things to do than get involved in handing out punishments for drivers being slightly rude to each other?


Nah the stewards should definitely not get involved, was just trying to highlight how rubbish Vettel's excuses were that he 'made a mistake' and he's 'sorry' - Webber seems to think it was all very deliberate. So it doesn't matter what they say after the race, in the heat of the moment the true feelings come out between the two like when Vettel did the 'crazy' finger gesture to Webber in Turkey a few years back


Justified. In what could be Webber's last year in F1, why would he now do as he is told. Clearly his best chance of winning a maiden title is to do what's best for himself and just go for it!


hahaha 😀


James, do you think Sebs actions today will impact on Webbers future in Formula one. Now in his mid-30's, Mark probably has little options to stay competitive outside of Red Bull.


Webber has seen the writing on the wall for a number of years at Redbull. It now seems that he had the option to go to Ferrari and perhaps he should have taken it but I guess he would have been the unfavoured, "supporting no 2" driver behind Alonso. I guess he seen as a great team driver, not the same light as those with the killer selfish instinct as Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel that makes them winners!


As opposed to the unfavoured number 2 at Red Bull?? I loved Mark's not so subtle dig at Helmut Marko when he said he be supported as per usual!


What about Ferrari, Massa is useless, he only can fight against his own team mate... better than last year, but useless anyway



It's my understanding that the teams can keep any of their radio transmissions private if they want. Why, then, did Red Bull and Mercedes allow all the team order stuff to go out? Great for us, but a PR own goal as it gives the press all the info they need to start raking muck straight after the race. Easier to put a spin on what happened if the press are speculating on who said what to who.

Anyway, as I said, great for us watching! It's going to be a long three weeks...


Teams supply all the feed to FOM who then decide what is aired. They do indeed air all the juicy stuff but not anything with swear words, which is what some drivers do to stop it being aired out, or in the case of alonso speak in Italian/ Spanish so no one understands


No the teams can't keep their transmissions private. Why, as you say, would they let them go out if they had the choice?


From what I've read, if the team wants to keep a radio transmission private, they just make sure to drop an f-bomb so it's unfit for broadcast.


I've read somewhere that teams use severe badmouthing to keep some transmissions from reaching the public.

Would that keep teams unable to spy each other?


It's my understanding, that all messages are in the clear. The FOM decides what it actually broadcasts on the TV (which is probably all the juicy stuff!).


Well, as I understand it, the FIA get all radio messages, and can supply some to FOM, or something like that.


"It’s my understanding that the teams can keep any of their radio transmissions private if they want."

That's not the case since some seasons ago.


I applaud Mercedes for getting their priorities right. Last year the team was very mediocre and already Lewis has brought them valuable points and are actually fighting for race victories with the Bulls no less. Just his presence has raised morale, enthusiasm and motivation which naturally brings out performance in everybody. Most people would put their money on Lewis having the best chance of moving up the table championship wise so it makes sense to keep him ahead of Nico, tough as it may be on him.


Poor Aldo Costa, and the rest of the tech team. It was Lewis that makes the difference..


In his defence Lewis was nothing short of praises for the team for giving him a good car. Whereas certain others whine about a bad car even when their in podium-- & you know who I mean don't you


How many 'favors' does Lewis need?

At McLaren the CEO, Ron Dennis gave Lewis preferential treatment vs. Alonso and Kovalainen.

Bernie Eccleston attempting to arrange transfer to Red Bull for Lewis.

Now at Merc the Team Principal, Ross Brawn won't allow Lewis' teammate to pass.

Senna never needed this kind of help!!!!!!


@ gudien ...so what you are telling me is; you find a talented child, nurter him, invest in him so that he becomes a star driver and then call it all doing 'him' a favour?? like you won't be getting anything out of the deal

Regarding the most recent 'favour' I think you may be missing the bigger pictre - that being, if the two Mercedes were allowed to race to the end, one would have less fuel (probably Hamilton) for the end of race inspection / or might stop on track...this would end up with the Team being penalised by fines and penalties for the next race and probably Mercedes losing curcial points in the Constructors Championship.

Oh and before you start making references to Hamilton not being able to judge his fuel load...Merc didn't plan for this kind of race - i.e. being in a position to chase down the Red Bulls in the closing stages...this is where he burnt most of his fuel...with Nico chasing Lewis down, Nico may have been running a bit low too.

True Senna never needed this kind of help, but that was a different era and team orders were still being used


Senna had God behind him, apparently.


What we saw between the Mercedes drivers was the ugly ugly face of formula1. One thing is to decide no racing between team mates after the last pit stop, I do not particulary like that. It is however much uglier when someone is denied to pass his team mate when they was not racing. Lewis was not competitive at that point and he was not racing Nico. This was extremely ugly.

A totally different situation between the Red Bulls drivers they was both competitive and if they had an prerace agreement was Vettels behaviour not acceptable.


Whilst I agree Lewis has raised moral, so has Lauda, Wolf and co. the biggest boost though is that the car designed prior to Lewis arriving is pretty darn good.

Todays actions though was no better than Red Bull or Ferrari holding their faster car back because they prefer the other driver. F1 is a team sport, but to call team orders on race 2 of the season? That's pretty crap and I can only assume Lewis has some sort of clause in his contract, hence he felt pretty rubbish on the podium for calling on it so early in the season. He's a winner though, like Vettel and they along with Alonso will do all they can to win. Sorry Nico, today proved you're a number 2, don't expect that favour back...ever!


Understand some of your thinking, but how does making Nico Rosberg hold position after only two races raise his morale or that of his mechanics, and where is his motivation? For the first time since 2010 Mercedes appear to have built a competitive car, surely Nico Rosberg deserves the chance to show what he can do?


Here is a theory for you:

Ross to Lewis

Lewis, go put some pressure on the Red Bulls, see what happens.

Lewis to Ross

Love to do that Ross but I don't have the pace of the Red Bull and I could end up low on fuel if I have to turn up the engine performance.

Ross to Lewis

Don't worry Lewis we have 3 and 4 in the bag, there is no serious challenge from behind and we may be able to pressure one of the Red Bulls into a mistake, tyre degradation or even mechanical failure. We have nothing to lose and could gain a place.

Lewis to Ross

Ok Ross if you say so but won't that leave me open to attack from Nico?

Ross to Lewis

Do I look like CH I am team boss and I call the shots Nico will not be allowed to take advantage.


From what was said by Ross Brawn, it appears both the Mercedes cars were under-fuelled. If he had not told them both to back off, they would have fought it out and one or other might not have had enough fuel left to supply the required amount to the scrutineers following the race.

What Lewis and Nico did was very mature; a statement that some might interpret as a dig at another driver.


Agree cliff, nico was faster, merc should have told ham to move over, nice to see Lewis humble after race


You forgotten how Mercedes started last season?

Rosberg qualified on pole and won the Chinese GP and MSC would have started on pole in Monaco?

It's their development that is in question.


I am Lewis fan, but Nico had already shown to the world what he can do, even he wasn't allowed to pass on track.

at this race everyone know who is obviously faster.


It is no more competitive than the car which won the Chinese GP - and I still expect them to slide down the championship table with focus on 2014 as the excuse.


I think Mercedes were worried that Hamilton would defend they way he always does and lose 3rd & 4th. Vettel knew Webber wouldn't defend robustly enough to scare Vettel off.


It's not as if they told him to let Hamilton past. He was simply to hold position.


I am a stubborn Lewis fan, but you are absolutely right, Nico deserved the podium. Honour to Lewis for his statements after the race.


Well said.


I like Webber, but I hate team orders. Let them RACE, I do not care if the tires or the engine break down I do not want to see cars proceedings in an order for the last ten laps. The race between Mark and Seb was actually quite good. Also its shame Nico was not allowed to overtake, if Hamilton fuel was short its his problem, let Nico finish on the podium.


it would seem you can only think one race at a time. What you suggest is fine for one race but in order to put a championship bid together the teams and drivers have to remember that an engine may have to be used for 3 races. If they race to the bitter end ... they would only enter 8 races!

Here's hoping Vettel's red mist comes back to haunt him!


You don't care, but the team care.


"Let them RACE, I do not care if the tires or the engine break down I do not want to see cars proceedings in an order for the last ten laps."

It's not you who pays the bills, is it?


Well Mister, I agree with you. Let them race and whoever wins wins. If it would be so there would be no situation between Mark and Seb. Not that I care about either one of them or RB.


I think you misunderstood my comment.

I was quoting Peter.


Actually, yes he does pay the bills - in a roundabout sort of way.

Without viewers like us there would be no sponsors, without sponsors there would be no money, without money there is no teams.


right on Charlie Brown!! 🙂


Those who watch on Pay TV actually do fund the teams, so you never know.

Spectators on the ground only fund the circuit and FOM.

That said, team orders have always been, being disguised with.more or less tact, up until 2010.

Letting them race when they are on different technical strategy makes no sense either, and that's .of racing either.


No team wants a broken engine. Remember that they have a limited number of engines they can use. If they break that rule they get a penalty


I think our cable cost and ticket cost that pays their bill. doesn't it? so shouldn't the sport do justice to the fans money?

overtaking artificially with unrealistically degrading pirellies and DRS and now blatant team orders don't make it very exciting. does it. this is not F1. NASCAR and V8's produce better races.

I defenitely would love team work when clearly one driver is out of contention for the championship, but not what is happening for massa's, rosberg's and webber's now, making them number 2 right from the start. i really dont know how can these guys accept it and do it at all.


They were both low on fuel through aggressive fuel strategy, but Lewis did more in the race so I expect his fuel situation to be more critical than Nico's. From the teams perspective they did the right thing, and the drivers obeyed which is a far better result than either or both of them not having enough fuel to get through the FIA test at the end.


Did more? How was that? Nico overtook people and held onto Hamilton quite easily with a lean fuel mix, so no Nico did more and Nico was faster, but I suspect he's been shattered by this.


Nico was overtaken by Button at the start. Hamilton drove quite an aggressive race in the early keeping up with the Bulls and challenging them, but he was put into fuel saving mode quite early on and then could do little more. Rosberg drove a more controlled race and was able to keep up because Hamilton was fuel saving. Ross Brawn did exactly the right thing because both cars were running out of fuel and had they raced to the end would have most likely failed the FIA test. One can understand Rosberg's emotions but in the current formula it's not always possible. Gary Anderson also confirmed that Ross had done the right thing if you listened properly. Rosberg will have his chances in the future races and he understood eventually the team orders were in place, and all credit to him for obeying which is more than I can say for that lousy sportsman Vettel.


Team orders will always be around one or another.


Teams invest 300 million dollars in a season of F1 and you want them to sacrifice that investment for....what? The team actually gets a huge amount of money for the Constructors championship and you want them to risk that for what.......?

F1 is a TEAM sport, it's such a simple concept that fans of other sports can easily comprehend - why is it so difficult for F1 fans to get their head around?

No team should go into a season favouring one driver but at the end of a race or at a certain point in the season it makes nothing but good sense to back the leader or protect their points haul. They race every other driver on the circuit, that's plenty of racing in every GP. The idea that team orders spoils F1 does not make sense.


This kind of racing wont make any headlines. Do you want to go back and rethink how much did F1 brand rose due to rivalries went all out?


Had they raced, then Webber would've still won because he was racing until he was ordered to turn down the engine.

So either way, Webber's robbed by Vettel.


Yes, it's great for us but teams can't take such liberties with millions of pounds at stake.


One of the most sickening race in recent history.

Would Seb have gotten so close to Mark after the final pit stop if they decided to pit Mark first?

I supposed they pitted Seb first to ensure that he finished ahead of Lewis, which is why I think in exchange for that, RBR wanted them to stay in their positions.

As for Mercedes, I guess they wanted to make up for the team's mistake for un-fueling Lewis' car.


No, they just wanted to say THANK YOU to Lewis after he stopped at the McLaren box but did not forget that he is actually a Mercedes driver.


Did Merc under fuel Hamilton or did he just use more than Rosberg? Big difference.


He used more fighting the Red Bulls. They were marginal from mid way in the race.

It's not much we're talking about only a few kilos



You always knew Hamilton was overated?

You mean you don't like him.

Alonso rates him the fastest driver on the grid apart from himself.

As for Mercedes they were allowed to race until the final pitstop which is normal for teams these days.

Hamilton was ahead so he stayed ahead.

Rosberg nice guy and great driver has plenty more races to prove any point he feels he has to prove.



Did you watch the race with no sound?

Lewis was told to chase the Red Bulls by the team; he was not trying to look good as you say. This was a strategy call from Ross to put some pressure on Red Bull and see what happens.

Mercedes had nothing to lose from this and everything to gain. They had 3 and 4 and by putting pressure on the Bulls there was every chance a mistake by Vettel or Webber or even tyre or mechanical problems could have netted Mercedes 2 and 3. I do not think Ross thought the Mercedes was faster, and therefore it would have made no sense in a strait race situation to challenge, but rather he was hoping for a weakness. It did not play out but was worth the effort. If Ross had thought Nico could have challenged the Bulls he would have let him go. Would it have been fair to sacrifice Lewis after he did everything the team asked?

Nico passed lewis on the track but Lewis immediately retook the position. Nico never made it stick. If Nico was really faster as you say he would have been the one chasing the Bulls with Lewis covering his rear. One thing is obvious and that is that Ross is calling the shots and the drivers are there for the team first and their own aspirations second.


How is ross asking his team to remain in place a moral mistake when vettel ignored the same orders from Rbr and took an underhanded victory when webber turned his engine down make him a true champion?


If Lewis used more fuel keeping pace with the redbull's, then surely that's his fault and not the teams? If its the teams fault, then surely they should of let rosberg past as they built him a dodgy gearbox for the last race?

Todays race is proof team orders should be banned.


James I think Ross made a moral mistake there telling Nico to stay behind, also Vettel is a true champion.


So he was under fuelled. To say he used more fighting the Red Bulls is laughable. If you don't have enough fuel to race fully then think again. If it's only 'a few kilos', then why not put it in the tank. The advantage will be greater than the weight.


Yeah he used all his fuel in trying to look good but couldn't even shake off Rosberg who was running lean but had the same pace or even faster, after the fuel was low Hamilton went crying to Ross because he knew Nico was coming through, a complete joke, we can all see Nico is the better driver now but he will lose on the record books, so what I always knew Hamilton was overrated.


They put Seb on slicks too early. Once people cool off they will realize this was the correct outcome.


I'm not so sure..in an instance where the likes of Horner and even Marko not yet finding many kind words to defend their golden boy, I can't see this happening.

It's not often that we see dark sides of people, and this was a stupid, selfish act - not much to praise the petulant kid.


I think you will find that it is the driver that makes this decision, not the team. So it was Seb's decision to come in on that lap. (hence radio message when they ask him to tell them when it is OK for dry tyres)


I wonder if you'll have the same opinion if Mark drives Seb of the circuit in China?

I thought the driver of the day was JB...really making the most of a much improved McLaren...he could have been 3rd/4th or 5th depending on how much Merc. had slowed due to their low fuel.

Back to the Bulls, I do think Horner should have got on the radio & said "If you don't let Mark re-take you...you'll be sitting out China"!

I have no preference either way for Mark or Seb...but the team makes the calls...the drivers should listen.


Let's be clear here.

If anyone Seb or Mark drive the other or crash into the other - any contact for any reason, then I stay silent about being given a race ban. In fact I think FIA will take that step, so RBR won't even have to.

Otherwise, any moves on the track within the rules are fair game. One thing is for sure, there won't be any engines being turned down.


He kind of flew under the radar a bit, but I was very impressed with Button. Considering where this car was a week ago here he was comfortably ahead of Massa and not a million miles behind Mercedes. If I was the top teams this would really have made me sit up and take notice. It looks like McLaren are starting to get to grips with this car much faster than I thought they would. We obviously need more races to see if this is what is actually happening or if its just a flash in the pan. If it is a true representation of where they are I don't think it'll be long until they are fighting for poles and wins.


Seb is a little egomaniac without honour!


What does Dietrich Mateschitz think about this 'sporting' blunder?


@Doug, the pit-stop stuffed up JB too but yeah a good drive by him.

Scuderia McLaren

Lol , sure. Sit out the driver who has delivered the most pts, wins, poles for the team since he started there in 2009. Without Vettel, all mark would not have win the titles. Fernando, Jenson, Fernando would have won. Horner knows that. RBR wouldn't dare.




Seb just can't accept when he is behind Mark. He just want to show who is the boss.


Horner comes across as pretty toothless in all of this. "Seb, this is silly, come on" sounds like something I might say to my 3 year old nephew, not a disobedient employee.


Absolutely right!


Well, I guess we will find out who runs the team - Christian or Sebastion.


But if you remember, Rocky left the decision so Seb.


I think it's Roque, Guillaume Roquelin's nickname.


I think it was Vettel's decision to pit too early. He's been told over the radio that they are ready whenever he thinks he is ready to take the slicks. He had bad pitstop timings today (except for the last pit stop).

But don't get me wrong, I like the outcome!


Did they? Or was that Seb's decision, thinking he'd ensure he stayed out in front?


Correct outcome for who? Certainly not for the team, and F1 is a TEAM sport. The team get the same points whatever way round they finish - only now they have a situation were neither driver has the trust on the other to honour agreements so how do they react next time?. 42 points were risked today for the sake of ego by a kid who has no respect or honour. These two drivers had an agreement, they said as much, that should not be overlooked just because these men happen to be F1 drivers.


Exactly. They got their 43 points. So what's the problem?

Can I put this into perspective for you? Vettel is going for 4th in a row. Historic stuff. If Webber's feelings get hurt, so be it. 4th is the goal. When Webber is going for 4th he'll have my support.

And as I told you, why are you so upset about this?

First Lewis would have won if they crashed out.

Second, we got action and drama.

Third, nothing illegal or against the rules happened.

Fourth, Vettel is known to race to the end and set fastest laps end of race.

Fifth, how gullible is Mark to think Vettel was going to back off on faster tires after the stunts he pulled on Vettel.

He's just sore because he's been had. Nothing against the rules happened here. I have a new conspiracy theory. #30 in latest post. 🙂


Sob used up all his inters in qualifying. He had no choice. Try again.


Having sat across from the red bull pits during the race it was clear that Webber had more pace than Vettel, until the latter decided to take actions into his own hands that is. We learnt a lot about him as a person today. While the pro-vettel crowd cheered him on the podium, the true racing fans knew the truth of how he 'earned' it. Hollow victory of you can even call it a victory.


A certain Giles Villeneuve was killed in qualifying because of Didier Pironi's similar antics in the Grand Prix before.

Like to see Mark in competitive machinery for one year after he leaves red bull and he can put his mate seb in the wall.

Vettel is a very good driver, but the team has treated Webber as a second class citizen since the arrival of the golden boy, much of it documented for you and I, do obviously it goes so much deeper!

With the crooks involved in F1 I would not be surprised of so many bad starts by webber down to team fiddles with engine mapping, clutch and gear box tampering. etc. I I hope not! Best thing to happen for Webber and us fans is an immediate switch of MASSA for WEBBER. That would make the rest of 2013 outstanding!


Whatever, I suppose Alonso is an angel in your eyes, with crash gate and costing Mclaren 100 million dollars - real honour there - saint even!! Hell he even expects team mates to roll out of the way, at least Vettel passed his!

Win at all costs is the name of the game, a TRIPLE world champion understands this!!


Webber had more pace? That is the most funny thing I heard all day lol whats next? Hamilton also had more pace than Rosberg?


The race gave me a chance to explain to my 8 year old son about character of a real man. I'm certain Mark did as instructed, its a crappy way for Vettel to win though. We have a pair of Seb's gloves hanging in my son's room...wonder how long they'll stay there now.


What's next? Participation WDC trophies?

Do you win WDCs by letting your #2 win races?


Yes, if you let them win them all 😉


Also for Webber doubters, Webber demonstrated today that he has matured after the last couple of years but Vettel hasn't. Webber could have easily run wide on Turn 4 (or is it 5 where Vettel overtook finally) - either forcing Vettel out of the track or crashing into him taking them both out. But he didn't!


To be fair on Red Bull , they did 'almost' everything fairly - except telling off Vettel and either ordering him to increase gap or after passing let Webber retake the lead. For crying out loud, they haven't even defended Vettel yet!! Everyone including Rocky, Horner and Marko, and even Newey on the podium appeared embarrassed.

For those claiming Vettel was faster and duly won the race, I think it's just a way of saving some of Vettel's dignity after this episode (if that's possible) as whether Webber turned down his engine to save the car or because he HAD to, we'll never really know. Going by what Red Bull have consistently and publicly maintained he did because he was asked to do so by the team, not because he had to. This looks even more likely as it'll be very easy for the team to say he had a problem, etc. and save face and protect the favoured one.

Some people in this forum just don't seem to understand how much is too much and where to draw the line.


RBR have been very clear in stating that they value both Mark & Vettel equally. Don't you remember this?

Webber is NOT a number 2 driver.

Unfortunately he is paired with Vettel (who the press [& Marco] love but in spite of a large following, many diehard F1 fans do not like him).

There was a team order in place - yes TO's have been controversial BUT they're legal.

Fact is Vettel did not drive for his team at Malaysia.

He put both RBR cars at risk of DNF (in closing laps) to satisfy his own arrogance.

F1 is a team sport.


Agreed, Chooky.

Some may have forgotten what happened in Turkey a couple of years ago when the two raced each other.

From Horner's point of view, that's 43 points being risked by someone who decided not to listen to you, who thinks you are no longer in control of the team..


"Fact is Vettel did not drive for his team at Malaysia.

He put both RBR cars at risk of DNF (in closing laps) to satisfy his own arrogance."

Spot on!


Might as well make it a one-driver team across the grid if #2s aren't allowed to win.


Simple fix.. ONE CAR TEAMS!

You wont have a problem, because there will be no number two or three to worry about. (Heard a rumor Ferrari wants three car teams!)


Who said Webber was number 2?


Mark did. When he won a GP and said, "Not bad for a #2".

He knows the score.


Good point.


But it wouldn't have done them any good if they'd collided like in Turkey. If they thought they were racing then great, but that wasn't the case.

I would rather see them race to the end but disobeying your bosses is disrespectful and could come back to haunt you.

As a viewer I'm glad the action happened but it wasn't sporting, even though it is ironic to expect racing drivers not to race!


Oh give us a break, I am a webber fan trhough and through, Vettel slaughtered him, hes a race driver. Mark doesnt give in unless he has to. Seb deserved that win. He is after all a race driver.

What I really want is the full telemetry of all cars on public display. Was Mark really in need of conserving engine. How much fuel did Lewis really have?


It's not about if there was a "need" to conserve the engine. They had a clear 1-2 in the bag. If the team tell both drivers to back off to be safe with the tyres/fuel and to save the engine and gearbox and whatnot, the driver should listen.

The driver might wish to disagree, but at the end of the day, it's the guys on the wall and in the factory who have all the data, and have to worry about making their equipment last until the end of the season. Why would you want to stress the cars when you could have a clear 1-2 by just cruising?


he is a racing driver but he just can't do everything he want without listening to the team. he is racing driver, he is WDC, but he is still employee.

team let them race each other, but every teams don't like to let them fight each other.


@Ricky: Senna probably wouldn't have. But I think Senna would have gone on the radio to say "Tell Prost that I'm still racing".. Not the way Vettel did.


It's a sad world where people excuse bad sportsmanship by giving an example of anothers bad sportsmanship.

Schumacher being the worst example, ramming Hakkinen, hill and trying to with Villeneuve and spinning in qualifying at Monaco!

Senna and Prost is a bad example they hated each other.

I bet Senna would not have done what Vettel did to Gerhard Berger in only the 2nd race of the season.


in another era, if ron dennis told senna to hold position behind prost, does anybody here expects senna to obey?


Paul, Webber was told to turn his engine down. What kind of a fight is that?

You give us a break.


It´s not about just Seb it´s about the team. Horner gives an order and the driver doesn´t follow it. Vettel should respect authority


Wade, I´m afraid anarchy will take you or Vettel or a country to chaos. In school when your teacher tells you to do something you do it. In your work place if your boss tells you to do something you do it.


No you don't have to respect authority Anne, it's quite weird when people write lines like that like it's an invariable fact. What right does one group of human beings have to tell another human being not to follow his life passion? It's corporatism that created this tension, RBR wanted to ensure maximum points for maximum money and take absolutely no risk to prevent that, even though it was at the detriment of competitive sport.

Racing drivers don't dream of F1 for the chance follow team orders, they dream of F1 to race for the win. You can't have a sport that is both a team sport and an individual sport at the same time, those two things are incompatible, and things like this is what happens. Corporatism is at odds with sports, that's the authority you are demanding respect for. Authority was in the wrong here, and Seb was right not to respect it today.


Vettel's actions demonstrate complete lack of respect for the phenomenal team of people who are behind him. It is they - led by Christian Horner - who have provided Vettel with the best car on the grid for the last 3 years. Without this car Vettel would not be a 3x champ. Vettel owes Red Bull and Horner an awful lot more respect than he has shown today.

Scuderia McLaren

So should Webber. Silverstone 2011, Brazil 2012.

Webber set the behaviour, Vettel beat him at his own game.

Game set and match, as they say.


Hmmmm.. You think Senna ever followed team orders? You think McLaren ordered him to crash into Prost? Yet somehow you no doubt think Senna was the best.....


Was there really any proper order given to Seb?

All that we heard on the team radio (be careful, it is silly...) just doesn't sound like an order to me, too ambiguous, not like "maintain the gap" for example. It is more like the things they tell him, when he chases fastest laps at the end of a race. And we all(and the team) know exactly what happens then.


Exactly. I've always been an admirer of Vettel and never really taken Nico too seriously. Racing talent aside Nico got him on the undercut so to speak.


I guess Webber having been told in the past not to attack Vettel at later stages of races when he had more pace may have thought he was safe to follow team orders tune down his engine thus disadvantaging him to his team mate in terms of speed and thus allow him to close. The rest is history.

Next time Webber is told not to attack Vettel, he has every right risking taking them both out of contention.

I truly believe Vettel's actions will come back to haunt him. It's one thing pulling a fast one on your competitor another on your team mate.

Consider this scenario.

Final race of the year, Vettel needs a win to take WDC and for Alonso to finish no higher than P3. Alonso qualifies P3 Webber P2 and Vettel P1. Webber gains nothing from winning or even finishing the race as he has no contract for next year.

Could you trust Webber to be there for you?

A true competitor and a true winner would be considering ALL of his actions and not short sighted enough to believe that the present might not have any bearing on the future.

This WILL come back to haunt Vettel and that will demonstrate a lack of holistic vision.


Yeah, I was thinking something like that. Webber will get an opportunity to get his own back... I'm rather looking forward to it 🙂


Not Sebastian Pedal-to-the-Vetal’s fault -

Obviously they’re force-feeding him that caffeine concoction of theirs prior to the race to keep him sharp. Webber pours his prescription in the petrol tank when they’re not looking.

At least it’s not as bad as the stuff the studios fed to child actors in Hollywood in the old days.


This was Mark Webber behind Vettel in Silverstone 2011

"I am not fine with it. No. That's the answer to that," the Australian said when asked if he understood the team's decision.

"If Fernando retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best.

"I don't want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I wasn't talking too much back.

"There was a lot of traffic coming to me, but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front."

But today the only difference Vettel got true and its funny he says he turned his engine down that didnt look like that when he was defending his place also his Schumacheresque defence on the pit straight.

Oh well on to China.


Yes but had Vettel turned his engine down?


What is this with turned engine down BS did Mark look like he was driving with less power even with DRS Vettel couldnt get the job done.


Bingo RE: Silverstone 2011, and people were praising Webber for that!

I think that if this was in reverse, Webber would be treated with far less criticism than Vettel has been.


Webber battled Vettel for a while at Silverstone, the call came, and he backed off.

You can't defend Seb's actions today. Even he's not trying to.

Scuderia McLaren

Agree 100%

Webber set the tone of RBR's team orders disputes, not Vettel. Also Brazil 2012 don't forget.


Wow. That's a killer quote to pull out.

But at least Webber didn't say "I did get the message, but no action followed because I misunderstood." Or "When I took off my helmet and saw that Mark didn't look too happy I talked to him and he came straight to the point. That was when it struck me like lightning."

Or my personal favourite, the excuse he used on the podium, before he'd had time to think of something better: "It was very hot."

He should have been honest about it like Webber.

It would be difficult to contrive a finishing order like today's where nearly everyone is unhappy. You have to go down to Grojean in 6th and Hulkenburg in 8th to find anyone even moderately satisfied with their race.


Lol great post and quote. Mark can't have it both ways, he set a precedent that day. I also think the engine stuff is rubbish or Seb would have sailed past with DRS as well. Mark defended hard, so hard he almost put Vettel in the wall. Good hard racing.


Very true. In fact Webber comes off as quite the hypocrite... his comments after Silverstone was:

"To manage it but then be told to hold position is something I wasn't prepared to follow at the time. If I'd backed off and held the gap at three seconds, as I was asked to do, it would have been much more difficult for me to sleep after the race.


Webber whines which ever way the wind blows... if he had any character he would have said that it was fine because he would have done the same given the opportunity.


Ahhh, but that WAS NOT the only difference was it? Not by a long way. People always try and present things to match their opinion.

Why was it very different? Because in that race, unlike this one, there was no agreement between the drivers before the race. The team decided to pull that one on WEB with no warning. This time both drivers have admitted that they was an agreement between them BEFORE the race started. They knew what the situation was going into the race and both signed up for it.


Great point, but please don't let the facts get in the way of a good story !


Yeah I agree. I think it is the support of the underdog. Everyone clearly thinks that Vettel is favoured so whatever Webber does is fair game. Obviously what Seb did today was out of line but as you point out how does it differ from Silverstone 2011? Or how about at Brazil last year when Webber was extremely harsh on Seb.

The funny thing though is that when Schumacher did that chop on Barrichello everyone went crazy yet Webber's move has been completely ignored because he had been wronged.


Take off the blinkers. Webber didn't move towards the pit wall. he held his line on the right side of the track, and Vettel chose to dive under Webber.

Look at the footage


Your telling me to take my blinkers off!! If your telling me webber held his line and didn't squeeze Vettel into the pit wall then there is only one person with blinkers on!

I don't criticise webber for this as far as I'm concerned its racing. However what frustrates me is the double standards when analysing situations.


I'm a fan of Vettel but the whole "I made a mistake" thing just doesn't wash with me. Unless there is more to the story that hasn't come out yet, it seems pretty disingenuous to say the absolute least. That being said though, I'm fairly certain that if it was Webber in Vettels position everyone would be cheering him for continuing to race, regardless of the orders.

Silverstone 2011, anyone?

What CH does about it now will be interesting, first time I can actually remember him or Newey showing (albeit not a lot) displeasure publically towards Vettel.


Vettel may hold three WDC but his actions were made even more untenable by the multiple attempts to lie his way out of it.

He arrived at Parc Fermi to a subdued team and like a naughty boy he knew right then he had better come up with a story.

Story #1 - I didn’t hear the call

Like a child when your first excuse doesn’t get traction you makeup another one.

Story #2 - I didn’t understand the call

This went over even less so again Vettel’s inner child realising the jig was up

Story # 3 - I did a bad thing but it’s too late to undo it. Wish I could.

This shows how shallow and lacking in vision this boy is. He will be forever know as a world championship liar and not for the records he so desperately seeks.

Final thought looking at the above, maybe Helmut Marko is helping too much the above defence I have heard in numerous court proceedings. 😉


Agree what a joke, seb knew exactly what's was asked and ignored


Agreed. It's a lot easier to apologise once you are sitting in the middle seat of the press conference and with a healthy early lead in the championship.


I've just watched the race again and I've come to the conclusion that Vettel had lost his temper when he couldn't get past Mark, and then when he got out of the car was like "sh*t! What have i just done?!?" Right or wrong, you can almost understand it.


And people still wonder why Vettel is disliked so much. Hw was already throwing his toys out of the pram early in the race..

I sense desperation from Vettel's side already. Seeing he's not got a car which is 1s faster than the oposition, he's pretty desperate.

Vettel and RBR will never be liked as much as Ferrari, Williams and McLaren. Never!


You are assuming I like Ferrari. Ferrari are the most guilty of orchestrating 'team orders' for their benefit. Have you never heard of Schumacher vs. Irvine, Schumacher vs. Barrichello, Alonso vs. Massa?

When it comes to sport Ferrari are bush league.



Certainly not, judging by the way they're going.


Vettel is disliked because mainly the english speaking fans are jealous of his talent and success, mainly the Hamilton brigade, its probably because you know as long as Seb is motivated, healthy and in F1 I doubt Hamilton will ever win the title again, mind you even Rosberg is quicker than Hamilton, shame he won't be able to show it again.




Of course not! They are energy drink Company and not legendary F1 team like the one you have mentioned and they will never be. They should know that Newey will not live forever and from next season they will face a great challenge as costumer car with new engines coming in. Ferrari should definitely have an edge!


Agreed about the older, prestigious teams with long F1 histories, without question.

An energy drink company yes. It cannot be overlooked however, that this energy drink co have won three consecutive DOUBLE WC's.

Pretty good going for a drink co don't you think?

Scuderia McLaren

Given the resources, special FOM deals and FIA rule vetos Ferrari have enjoyed for some time, having had "the edge" does not translate to success does it.

Last 2 WDC - 2007 Kimi, 2004 Michael.

2 drivers titles in a decade of having the edge ain't great is it.


What else could he say? He made a cold ruthless move - just how everyone likes it when Lewis would. Then he had to sugar coat it for the media.


Red Bull should sideline Sebastian Vettle for China. Sends a message that no one is bigger than the team. His actions could have cost them 43 points. It also sends Mark Webber a good signal and with 19 races to go that's going to be important.

Give the one race seat to Daniel Ricciardo. That helps Red Bull test him in a decent car.. and as he's an Aussie the irony wouldn't be lost on Mark.


Awesome Idea..

But Christian Horner doesnt have the balls to do it.


I agree completely but it will never happen!!

Wilma the Great

Well, I think, it would be a bit harsh to sideline Mark in China for almost sending Seb into the pit wall, he just didn't want to give in on his position - that's natural.

But you're right, it could have cost the team 43 points, so it would be a legitimate action.


Never said it towards anybody, but I hate Vettel after what he did. I hope he wins everything in his life that is there to be won, but spends his life lonely...win no firneds and nobody to really like him or care about him......


well said i was thinking the same,vettel 3 times champion,webber may never be champion.(i wish he would do it this year).

vettel has no respect for webber or the team.

if i was webber i would of took vettel out,clipped his back wheel.

webber last win was last year british gp,vettel

knows webber only got a few seasons left,his took his chance of victory away, over the sake of 7 points, when there is 425 left to fight for.

webber has helped vettel on more than a few occasions.

maybe f1 should go down the motogp route and seperate the garages,have every man for himself.


Webber would never help Vettel willingly!

He tried to race Vettel in Brazil last year when the championship was on the line, when team obviously told him not to.

Webber ignored team orders in British GP 2011, when Vettel was in front. He tried to overtake and Vettel raced him, the only difference was Vettel got the job done, whilst Webber does what he's good at, whinge and whine!

Vettel was frustrated in the race, Webber got the undercut, and Vettel was being held up and this screwed up Vettels strategy as he in turn lost a place to Hamilton, and almost to Rosberg. He obviously wanted to prove that he was quicker, did it on track, no conspiracy theories!

Thanks Seb for giving us real racing, not controlled rubbish like Ferrari or Mercedes.


Youve got it wrong webber was not holding vettel up as team told him to look after tyres something vettel didnt seem to understand,you heard webber in post race interview saying there not racing at full pace due to tyre strategy


Webber in Brazil raced hard to begin with, when Vettel was basically looked like he'd walk the WDC in. Later in the race when Vettel needed to make his way back through the field, Webber clearly let him just go straight through. The situations were different and Webber acted accordingly.


Yeah, give the ride to Yuji Ide!!!


To: Mark

From: Sebastian

Hey Mark,

Sorry mate.  It was an accident.  Anyhow, you need to understand I am going for 4 in a row, please see the biggee picture, Schumi's records aren't going to fall by playing nice.  Holding position would have cheates the fans out of a show as well.



P.S.  You think I will be DOTD?


Yes Seb, you definitely are D$@!head Of The Day.


The team told both to turn engines down: one complied, the other didn´t and then ate away a 4 s lead... so that´s not an accident. I wrote earlier -in a comment waiting endless moderation- that i had nothing against what Seb did, but then realized the whole point: they where well in the lead, and where told to conserve engines for the future as the team had already attained a 1/2 finish. They could have "let them race" as many say here, but it comes at the expense of a future engine failure or racing incident, so the call was in order. So sorry, the super exciting race from Vettel you saw was in fact him overtaking a lame duck with les revs in the motor. He´s taken his chances, and I have nothing against it but:

-Apologizing with that kinda didn´t mean it attitude is completely fake: you´re ambitious and ruthless, so don´t apologize for it, hold your hand up and show your true face; you asked a few weeks ago why there was so much dislike towards Vettel, that´s why: he likes playing the nice kid role who´s never broken a dish, and that really is not him.

-I would like to see what you have to say now about team orders. RBR clearly give them and Seb has been benefiting from them more often than not. perhaps, your well known position on "poor Massa" should be reviewed hereafter.


Oh yeah. Mark is allowed to race Seb to a much highet degree than Massa was until just recently. That is what bug me. Sure, we know neither Mark or Massa will likely be backed for a WDC effort by their teams. But at least Mark is allowed to win by his team.


I will tell you what it is rafa. I understand team orders. I know they make sense. I know they are needed.

But every once in a while, I really really like it when they are not followed. Webber has done it. And Vettel has done it. I wish Massa would do it once or twice.


Oh, and about DOTD I don´t think he will get it.

Wilma the Great

To: Seb

From: Mark

I, too want to break Schumis records. Today, I began by defending position like him. How was my driving? Call 1-800-NO-OVERTAKING-ME-WO-TEAM-PERMISSION


To: Sebastian

From: Mark

Hey Seb,

No worries Mate! I understand how much you like breaking records. Clearly the numbers today were worth more to you than anything else.




If DOTD means d*ck of the day, absolutely.


Or maybe...

Hey Mark,

Learning from the man... Silverstone 2011.

Yours sincerly,



I can see this being the beginning of the end of Red Bull and Vettel's relationship - although I do not necessarily mean to imply it will happen imminently. The way the team reacted, especially Newey but also, surprisingly, even Marko, suggests that Vettel's actions today demonstrate he is now becoming bigger than the team.

It's inevitable - after three consecutive World Championships and a truck load of records - there is a tug of war as to who is responsible for most of the success, Vettel or the team.

Vettel can point to the fact that since he turned up in the team they became the front runners, although Red Bull can point to the massive regulation change.

However, the twist in the tale was how quickly Vettel apologised after the event. While an apology of sorts was inevitable the fact it came so quickly is probably a result of Vettel sensing the damage he had done to his relationship with the team and the acknowledgement that it is thanks to Red Bull he has been able to have such a massive success (that's not to say without Red Bull he would have had none) - this could certainly salvage the relationship for a couple more seasons however whereas before this race it seemed that neither Red Bull or Vettel would want to part company for any reason other than fulfilling the supposed holy grail of being a Ferrari champion things have changed and there is now a clear ticking countdown clock on Vettel's duration at Milton Keynes.

The only question is how much time is on that clock.


That thought crossed my mind today.

In recent weeks, we have had Dieter say he wouldn't stop Vettel leaving even with a contract in place.

He understood exactly what the team had told him, yet believed that the team would support him like they did in Turkey 2010.

It was obvious from Horner, Newey and Webber that that wasn't the case. He proved he has no respect for any of them.

Most interesting was Dr Marko's garbled comments which didn't back Vettel up at all.

Who knows, maybe Vettel in 2014 is go after all.


Marko says he wouldn't try to stop Vettel if he wants to leave. That was quite surprising, considering that Vettel is widely seen as Red Bulls golden goose.

Vettels action today was swollen headed, but it would seem that Vettel has been testing the teams patience, it only came out in public today.


Yes, as a team boss I would fire a 3X WDC for winning.

What is going on here today? Seriously!


I did not say he would get fired. I was commenting on how this was the moment the Vettel / Red Bull relationship soured and they will grow apart from here on. Much like Lewis Hamilton started to grow apart from McLaren, a team everyone believed he would be at forever prior to LieGate.


That's why you aren't a team boss.


You got yourself a nice name there... Ha ha... 😀


Vettel join Ferrari and show the world what you're made of, Redbull are taking credits when its not deserved, as soon as he leaves you will see the team fade.


Alonso vetoed Vettel's move to Ferrari.

Unlike Vettel when Hamilton wanted to join RedBull.

Big difference.


That comment reminds me of a song....

...oh yes...

Daydream Believer! 🙂


Car Driver combo is a good one but I still feel Adrian is the main reason the team is able to adapt and change but still maintain a fast car. Well on the way to the top you are bound to break a few promises..Mark is in the firing line, all he needs is play the team game and beat the guy on the track, i do agree its a dirty trick especially if you agree to maintain position. The team gets paid on Constructors points and not driver credits, with the economy, you have to ensure you take all thats on the table and worry about the rest later.

I remember Lewis asking his team in Turkey " If I slow down, he's not going to pass me, the team said yes, Button sensed an overtaking opportunity and went for it, but was beaten fair and square and took a seat behind Lewis. I dont think they ever got on after that. But it made button look like a mug. Webber and Vettle had just crashed. But today Lewis was told to slow down, Nico tried it and overtook Lewis but before you know it he was over taken again, Nico had to be reminded to take a seat. Its a Team game and if the boss decides no change because you can't catch the from runners or there is no threat from the moving chicanes from the back then no point going home empty handed...constructors equals money and thats what they race for as a team.

For those that can deal with the tension of team orders please switch to GP2, hot headed youngsters. Thrilling overtakes and some moves that are so mind boggling...as in what where you thinking.


Oh my goodness, you should have been a politician. Lots of words which mean nothing to those who us who can see beyond our rose tinted glasses. I agree that JB got put in his place,, but only after LH retook him. Jenson save fuel, this is critical. Nico was by far the better driver today and any stupid meaningless apology or "humble" comment from Lewser will never fool those who see the truth. It would have made no difference to "team points" today if Mercedes had let the quicker driver through (Nico) to take what would have been a well deserved podium. Lewis was beaten today hands down and this will send him a couple of very strong messages. 1. Nico is faster than you 2. You wont be able to hide behind team orders forever 3. Glad you feel the need to emulate Jenson lol


That's a joke right? VET is the star and the Newey-RBR partnership are taking all the credit from him? That's the funniest thing I've heard all weekend and don't forget I have already listened to VET try and explain his lack of morals away which in itself was hysterical.



Spot on!


Wayne, check his other posts they are equally funny (i.e. delusional).


Because Neweys has nothing to do with the car, hasn´t he?