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Webber “We are in uncharted waters”
Red Bull Racing
Webber “We are in uncharted waters”
Posted By: James Allen  |  01 Jun 2010   |  11:49 am GMT  |  315 comments

Red Bull has put out a video with Mark Webber talking about Sunday’s Turkish Grand Prix and his collision with Sebastian Vettel. And faced with a torrent of criticism on the team’s website and elsewhere, team boss Christian Horner has issued a statement which rows back on the position on Sunday night and seems to place more of the blame on Vettel.

Webber looks rather contrite in the video, but he also seems quite resolute. He talks of his own championship quest and the fact that it is going to be uncomfortable at times with two team mates fighting at the front, but makes the point that this is nothing that teams like Williams, Ferrari and McLaren haven’t dealt with in the past.

He is obviously talking on the Sunday evening after the race. The tone of the video is “all for one and one for all” and he talks about the team needing to work together to put the controversy behind them.

From experience, the rather stilted way he’s speaking is actually the way he talks to foreigners, he does it in media briefings, almost as is he feels he needs to speak more clearly when answering a non-English speaker.

“Sebastian tried a move, both of us.. in the end it didn’t work out, ” he says. “One of us could have won the race, but in the end we only got one third place.

“If you look back obviously after it all happens you of course want to do things differently. That;s something we learn as a team. We are in uncharted waters, both of us leading the championship. The team collectively with the drivers need to learn how to deal with these situations better in the future.”

“We are a new team. We are still learning. In Turkey we learned in a way which was not in the best way, but McLaren and Ferrari have had these days, They know how it can be when you have some adversity. We need to be united as a team and keep going.”

It comes at an interesting time for Webber as he was into discussions about a contract renewal for next year. How this situation unfolds over the coming weeks will obviously have a bearing on that.

The public reaction to the way Red Bull managed the crisis on Sunday has been largely negative, particularly in the English speaking world.

It’s impressive in many ways that Red Bull has left the comments section open on its website as there is overwhelming negativity in the 1000 + comments left there about the team’s pro-Vettel stance and in particular Dr Marko’s statements about the incident, which Horner has rowed back on a little with his Tuesday afternoon statement. The team now classes it as a ‘racing incident that shouldn’t have happened between team mates’ and Horner noted that Dr Marko also fully shares that view.”

Horner defends Vettel for having a run at Webber, because he says that to back him off would have led to him being passed by Hamilton, but he notes that Webber held his line “Which he was entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past he moved to the right.”

Red Bull likes to be seen as an edgy brand and they are certainly getting that at the moment, albeit they would prefer the message to be success on the cutting edge, rather than their internal politics splashed all over the media.

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2 days on and I'm still very disappointed at how the race turned out and the lack of support for Webber by the RBR management.

This video seems like a 'stunt'. Would like to see similar for Vettel and see what he says.


...agreed, but Vettel sees himself as the new Schumacher, and like him, will never say sorry!


I agree however I can't help but think this might all play into Webbers hands in the end. RB will now be extremely wary of looking like they're favouring Vettel (which I'm starting to believe they secretly and discretely have been doing) even at times when they're not.

In addition, I don't think Webber will be holding much love for RB anymore. Even if outwardly he makes videos like this for them, and talks the PR talk, when it comes down to it he'll probably, and in my opinion rightly, have a 'sod 'em' attitude and just race for himself. RB won't be able to punish him for that because of the public backlash we've seen from them doing so.

Maybe that won't be a recipe for comfort within the team, but if he becomes champion, I'm sure he really won't care!


Totally agree, this is probably the best thing that could of happened to webber's title push. It's practically secured him equal backing within the team as red bull will not want to go through the bad pr again and they will know that the media spotlight will be very much on them.


Webber's video looks like a bit of poor acting ( Sorry Mark ) but he's talking a speech that's been prompted to him and it's not flowing from the heart. Mark's a consummate professional and is probably under duress to present this video whilst understanding that next years contract hasn't been signed and if I was him I'd do the same .....the RB seat is still a very good seat to be sat in. Good Luck for the rest of the season Mark - your head should be in the right place where SV's head seems full of adrenalin - so make hay and let the boy do the hard years of learning and that keeping your cool is also a necessary part of a drivers CV.


yes look at the 2007 year, and just do not do what alonso did.


You can count on Vettel or any other bosses in Red Bull to come out and admit that Webber was the victim, not the other way around.


So no video from Seb then?

Be interesting to hear if the 'just formalities' in Webber's contract discussions mean we'll hear about another years extension in the next few weeks now.


AMuS has a new interview with Marko, transcribed from a video interview on RB's own Servus TV:

Quick summary translation of the most important bits of the article:


After the race in Istanbul, RB didn't really know whom to blame. The drivers were diplomatic, but indicated that the other guy was to blame. Horner first blamed mostly Vettel, but after talking to Marko and the RBR engineers turned onto Webber. Finally, the team blamed communication issues; Webber's engineer should have prepared Webber better for what was to come. However, two days after the race RBR seems to have decided not to follow the easy route any more. On Servus TV, Marko gave his final verdict: "Two top drivers, but both didn't react as they should have". "This was a rookie accident".

Until Canada, the gripe between Webber and Vettel shall be resolved. "We will try to get the team spirit going again." "The drivers don't need to have dinner together, but they have to cooperate and be clear about one thing: *this* is the team".

RB still does not want to settle on a clear number 1, despite the Istanbul trouble. "It would be easier probably, but it's not what RB wants."

Marko defends against accusations that RB wanted to use team orders to put Vettel in front, which was not known to Webber at the time. "This is not manipulation. The message to Webber was supposed to be, 'you are too slow, and at that speed we cannot hold Hamilton. Save your car, and if Vettel is faster, don't fight him and focus on Hamilton.' This is not team orders, it's simply stating the facts."

The anger about Webber does not seem to be very large: the (2011) contract shall be finalized with in the next years. "We want to continue working with both drivers, and I would say that it's more or less just a formality when the contract will be signed in a few days". Both parties agree on the duration. "Webber is not the youngest. (...) It's both his and our wish, like last time, that the contract shall extend for one year at a time."


I think that the reason Jense left Brawn is that they would only offer him a one year contract & McLaren offered a 3 year deal. I can see that playing a part with Mark's contract also.


Marko: “This was a rookie accident”.

I assume he's talking about the team and their reaction there?


In my view, both drivers, Horner and Marko share the blame equally.


Thanks very much.

"“This is not manipulation. The message to Webber was supposed to be, ‘you are too slow, and at that speed we cannot hold Hamilton. Save your car, and if Vettel is faster, don’t fight him and focus on Hamilton.’This is not team orders, it’s simply stating the facts.”"

Sounds like team orders/lies to me. 🙁

Because a - Hamilton wasn't closing down on Vettel. As James noted, the gap was steady. b - If he was, Webber would have had no defense for Hamilton. Losing the 1-2. c - refuses to mention fuel saving, which was the MAIN reason Vettel got a run on Webber.


a - I haven't looked into the data myself, but yes, this is what I read everywhere.

b - Well, if Marko tells the truth, then a 1-3 or 1-4 (with Vettel in one) would still have been better than a 3-4 for RB.

c - I don't know how relevant that is, assuming that the team told Webber to save because he needed to (instead of to make him slower than Vettel).




Did you not notice the speech marks - or would you have liked to have seen 'sic' in the title?


I think what this points out is that the Red Bull team structure is unworkable. Dr. Marko is not the team principal and should have had the good sense to keep his mouth shut rather make ridiculous comments. It is an obvious lie that Vettel had no choice or he would be passed by Hamilton- there was NO indication of that at all. Marko's position within the team could best be described as "cancer".

I like Vettel and think he is fast and a good racer. I also don't fault him for trying a pass, but he simply made a mistake by moving over aggressively and paid the price. I think it could be left at that if Redbull stopped trying to spin this as if Webber did something wrong. If they continue down the road of "Webber should have given more room" I don't see how they have any chanceof winning the championship at all.


Just made a similar comment myself. Completely agree.

Horner needs to put his foot down about this, and establish the 'lines of communication' which will be used r.e. races, i.e. Marko to 'shut the hell up'.

Further than that the driver programme management (Marko) should go *below* team principal.


I think Redbull have risked turning the public against 'their boy' now, because the perception will be forever more that Vettel is favoured.


While I think that both drivers were at fault for the incident, how come is it only Webber that seems to be coming out and talking about it, is the team protecting Vettel from the media and leaving Mark to fend for himself?


Webber left a car width(all he should regardless). Its up to Vettel to make it stick and he couldn't. Vettel also broke the rules by not having a cars length before merging.

I dont see how Webber contributed at all. He was hard but FAIR.


Divesh mate please explain how on any frame of mind you reckon it was Webber's fault anyhow?

Mark D. Johnson

Check out Joe Saward's Blog. He has some photos of the incident, which clearly show Vettel moving towards Webber even before the right flick. I watched the race again today, knowing what was about to happen, and at the time of contact, Webber was veering towards his right, although not quickly. Just how much was Webber supposed to move? If you see the replays, which I'm sure are now on YouTube, watch the cars in reference to the fog lines on the edge of the track. You'll see that Webber was gradually moving towards his right.


Well you can't deny that both drivers contributed to the crash. And the shocking thing, is if the team bosses behind the pitwall stayed patient they would have most likely had a 1-2. Instead they tried to get Vettel infront, and it blew up in their face. Vettel was more to blame then Webber, but the team in the pitwall deserve most blame in my opinion.


Webbo did what any other driver on the grid would have done. Nothing more, nothing less. If junior got himself on the marbles, well, no-one made him go there. And there are some drivers on the grid (fill in names of famous Germans here)who would have done quite a lot more.


I think while Vettel turned in on Webber, Webber might have avoided it if he left Vettel more room. You cannot deny that they were both far more left than they should have been if they were going to have any chance of making the corner. Webber tried to squeeze him and Vettel turned in on him, that's why I say they both could have made different decisions that could have left them both in the GP and in 1-2 instead of DNF-3.


The way Webber has been treated by his team's public comments is disgraceful and outrageously unfair even if it were his fault which it isn't. How long did Webber work with the team when the car was giving him little payback in speed and reliability? You win and lose together.


Do Red Bull really want a constructors championship or do they want a Red Bull junior world champion? It appears as though it is the latter.

Mark has been hung out to dry by his team despite having the momentum and the determination to win. Marko is fully focused on Seb and team tactics are starting to become more obvious.

Mark is as determined as ever and as for Seb, cracks are appearing. I think it is unlikely that the team will ever fully back Mark while Seb is there but all he needs to do is keep doing what he is doing and concentrate on the prize. I think he can do it.


What I'd like to see is Vettel's statement after these past two days. If he'd owned up to his mistake right at the beginning, the matter wouldn't have escalated to this level.

There's his diary entry in his website, though it's anything but contrite is what I think. How far this Vettel is from the one last season—that time, the media talked about how he's so likable and refreshing (compared to his PR-speaking peers). He's such a loose cannon right now, I can't think what sort of step he'd first take to redeem himself.


James, has the original reluctancy of Webber to extend the contract with Red Bull to do with the Vettel favourisme you explained?

I mean, Webber was making it very clear that he was a free agent and no certainty that he would stay on at Red Bull.

I reckon the negotiations concerning the contract are put on hold for now untill Red Bull knows whether the drivers can deal with each other.


He also sounds like his accent has gone for a bit of walk. A bit, Austrian 🙂


Ah, I see you picked up on that as well James, I'll read the article before I comment next time.


Thank James, I never expected such an expansive answer to my question put to your previous article ;p Thanks.


I hope Mark wins the drivers championship and takes the number 1 with him to Ferrari.

He must've been furious with Marko's comments, Vettel's inability to accept the blame can't help either. At least after Japan he said sorry!

The way Mark's going this year, I hope this just strengthens his resolve.


Unless Vettel falls apart over this I'd be very surprised if they let Webber win the world championship.


I think McLaren will also have something to say about this, it won't be long before they have the fastest car 🙂


No doubt that Red Bull Racing management have taken an unfortunate incident and made it much worse. If it was a clumsy attempt at fixing the result or not they seem to certainly damaged the brand by leaving Mark out to dry so publicly. The Red Bull Racing web site is a disaster zone at the moment. The fans are a little smarter that Horner/Dr Marko seem to give them credit for. 'Unsporting' behaviour by the management representatives of a company that sponsors an F1 team for all the reflected glory that brings them seems insane. Good pick up on the disgruntled fan angle James, F1 seems to constantly shoot itself in the foot in this area and Red Bulls response will be interesting.


It is very telling that Webber is doing the talking.

Vettel may be talented, but he still has to grow up … and learn to loose. It's really awful to see when he doesn't get the things HIS way.

I truly hope that this will be Webber's year.

New Objective

Mark has COMPREHENSIVELY taken the "YEAH" out of the most awful, ear drum torturous, adoloscent voice breaking sound of the repeated "YEAH BABY"! All that's left of that attempt at a victory cry... you can all figure it out! Go MW!!!


Winning teams with two top drivers have always during F1 history claimed that they have the management skill, control, etcetera and etcetera to handle a situation like this. History shows that they are almoast always wrong. Now we can witness once again just how difficult it is to manage a situation like this.


Ferrari had a clear #1 driver with Michael Schumacher and it was not even kept secret. Whomever was the second driver was treated like a second driver. During his tenure with Ferrari there was some impressive success.

Hamilton + Alonso (equal treatment)= failure

Hamilton + Button (equal treatment)= failure

Alonso + Massa (equal treatment)= failure

Vettel + Webber (equal treatment)= failure

Hamilton + Heikki = SUCCESS!!

Button + Ruebens = SUCCESS!!

Unless the top teams pick a #1 and #2 the success of the team will be jeopardized!

New Objective

Anyone + Ruebens (legendary best #2 ever) = success

Mark D. Johnson

You forgot, Raikkonnen + Massa; failure? Kimi won DC and Massa came one corner close in 2008. I'm not really a Ferrari fan, but you can't just pick the stats that make your point look good. You have to look at all of them.


Wait till the end of 2010 before you can test your "Hamilton + Button (equal treatment) = failure" hypothesis


Equal treatment for two strong drivers doesn't work because it causes in fighting, lack of shared data because the set-up is the difference maker and the fact that they take valuable points from one another. Raikkonen won because Alonso and Hamilton took points away from each other. Hamilton won the year after by 1 point. What if Massa had an extra couple of points that Raikkonen took from him early in the season, it would have been a different story.

From a fan perspective I love the close battles... but froma team success point of view I dont't see equal treatment with any positives.


What if every team provide equal treatment? Not likely, you think? Me too. How about pressuring the corporate gentlemen to do so (one way or the other)?


I'd rather say Alonso + Hamilton (equal treatment)= failure. (Taking into account Alonso was 'just' a twofold DWC.) As well, I'd rather say Button + Hamilton (equal treatment)= failure, taking into account that the most recent DWC was Button. The order should be as you posted considering Hamilton as a McL protegé. In the case of Alonso + Massa, the order could depend on either the number or the most recent DWC won. Open for discussion. #;)


we could easily add Alonso + Fisichella = success;

there are cases in which equal treatment did not jeopardize the team, like

raikkonen + massa

button + hamilton (why do you think it's gonna be a failure?)


The problem was that Webber wasn't a match for Vettel. RedBull thought they had a good wingman for Seb. A great guy yes but always a Massa/Rubens/Eddie to Vettel's Schumi capability-wise. The problem is that something clicked this year and Mark is finally joining the dots. Now he knows how to win in F1 and has beaten Vettel 3 races in a row.


"something clicked this year" - I would suggest that Webber's accident pre-2009 did him no favours at all during last season, but that he didn't let on (ie, he didn't use it as an excuse). Whereas this year he's had no such issues with his fitness levels - he's on the top of his game.


I don't think it was his cycling mishap. I think he realized that he was no longer just "talking up" his chances of wins, he actually has a genuine crack at the championship. After losing out on that first corner tussle with Vettel a few races back I think he's said to himself "no, that's not going to happen again".


James- a though provoking appraisal, thank you. (it actually helps me move on too, I've been chewing over this thing since I watched it)

It doesn't suprise me that RB are on the front foot in the marketing sense. They are nothing if not a brilliant marketing organisation, and the marketing heads would have assessed this situation as 'brand damage'.

If I could risk a question to you on this site, I would ask that, given that the overwhelming feedback from former and current drivers, professionals, commentators, and the public is that Vettel tried to squeeze Webber, has there been any scuttlebutt that race stewards will review the situation?


I too would love to know if you have heard anything from other drivers / team managers.


I think you will find that they banned and gagged many posters initially on the red bull forums, but the overwhelming glut of negative comments towards the team has made that rather pointless.


Like most comments, this is the slightly watered down "PR speak" - staying positive, not getting into blame games, etc. Pointing the finger won't resolve anything anyway, they'll never agree.

What is interesting is the way the Red Bull top brass appear to back Vettel in spite of most of the paddock agreeing that Vettel was the most in the wrong. (Incidentally, Vettel did the same thing to Hamilton on 1:21.08 on the iPlayer feed of the Turkish GP - only Hamilton jumped left to avoid the collision.)

The rumours of Vettel being the #1 at Red Bull are not going to go away whilst all the signs still point to it...


The Red Bull PR team have misjudged this one really badly - this has turned into a disaster for them. Virtually the only people who believe this rubbish are the Vettel element within the Red Bull team themselves. I missed the statement from Christain Horner after the GP and caught it on the highlights show. I was astounded.

I wasn't sure if he was trying to convince me, the viewer, that it was MW's fault or himself as he was delivering his speech. Everything about it was wrong, the body language spoke volumes.

What upset me most was when they had an initial response from Eddie Jordan, I agreed with everything he said.

I'm doomed.......


Also on the RBR website is this little gem:

Red Bull Aussie Mark Webber snags 3rd at the Turkish Grand Prix over night and continues his lead in the Drivers points. It was a shame to see our team-mates collide in lap 41 though, taking Vettel out...bring on F1 Canada!

Red Bull are sinking to even lower depths.

Snag: To catch unexpectedly and quickly

or at best

Snag: to seize (an opportunity, benefit, etc.)

So....who took Vettel out? VETTEL.

This is so rich, Webber has been driving brilliantly and would have won if not for precious little Seb, yet he is treated like this.

Andrew (in Melbourne)

a snag is a sausage. Its trying to be overly Aussie.

Jake Pattison

Qlder here 🙂

Well, I reckon they are just being rude to Mark, but once again it only serves to paint RBR in a poor light.


Incidents like these make people give up on some teams and eventually the sport all together. It's not the first time that a team shamelessly favoured one driver over the other. Webber reacted incredibly calm in the post race press conference. It's not that Mark doesn't perform well enough to bring home the bacon for Red Bull. He has done it for every team 110%. Webber is possibly the most passionate driver out there & his loyalty to his team is something they don't teach anybody in the young drivers' development program. Today Red Bull is a powerful force in F1 & surely some credit goes to Webber for sticking by them with the lousy car over the years. But the reaction from the Red Bull bosses are completely shameless. I was becoming a huge fan of Vettel only because he is a very fast (manufactured) driver & a colourful character on and off the track. But from last sunday onwards he will have one less fan (won't be surprised if the number is in 7 figures), anybody else care to join non vettel & non Red Bull fan club?

I have never supported McLaren in my life. So, I don't care who wins the constructor's championship as long as it isn't Red Bull. But I pray to god that Webber gets a good enough car to win the WDC.


I share the same feeling with you. I will never be a Vettel fan from now on. And more importantly I will not feel very good to drink RB drink at all.


I look forward to the Vettel video. I hope Webber keeps winning and takes the championship and the #1 to another team.


Your right about the way he talks James. Its something I've noticed before and is very different to the laconic aussie accent he uses with the australian press. Others who do this include cadel evans (australian cyclist) and I always thought it might have to do with them living overseas (though webber lives in England.) I think it might be a subconcious response to speak like that (thinking a foreigner won't understand what your saying otherwise), but here I think it indicates his words are prepared and he is being very careful to stay politically correct in the interests of the team.

Personally, while I feel its a good step to leave the comments section open on the red bull page, the only way this tension within the team can fully blow over is if Vettel accepts he the most to blame and apologizes to Webber for ruining both their races.


Regarding Mark's manner of speech,I think it is simply because us Aussies speak to each other differently to how we speak to people that aren't from Australia. Its not out of rudeness, its simply that alot of "Australian" turns of phrase & words make no sense to people from around the world, & so in order to not sound like an idiot, you tend to watch what you say & how you speak a little bit more than you would with other aussies..

BTW another note for everyone not blessed to live in Australia 🙂 we don't say "Throw another shrimp on the barbie, mate", matter of fact we never have (apart from Paul Hogan on a tourism commercial years ago)

And the real shock? We don't really drink "Fosters" in Australia, its just not that popular here 🙂


I am an Aussie living in Dubai and have travelled extensively. I do the accent thing too. I have no choice as the Australian accent is difficult to understand for non trained ears, especially those whose first language is not English.

Anyway, on SV's website, albeit in German, there was no acceptance of any blame by frat boy Seb.

I have no doubt that Webber will now pants Seb for the rest of the season unless he is handicapped by RBR. Unfortunately for me, this scenario seems the most likely.

Red Bull gives you wings

Seb Bull drives into things

Nadeem Zreikat

Red Bull gives you wings

Seb Bull drives into things

Can we put that on a T Shirt?


The only trouble I ever had understanding an Aussie accent was when she said 'shut up' and I thought she said 'stand up' !


Most Aussies are very honest and a bit outspoken. Webber is probably the most popular non championship winner driver. Cadel Evans is a great comparison this way too.

What you said about Vettel or Red Bull's apology is perhaps correct. But so far based on their reaction & treatment on Webber will make their apologies big fat lies. Thoese kind of apologies will never be accepted because they surely won't mean it in the first place.


Need to bear in mind that this video was not made SOLELY for people who speak English as their first language. As such he isn't talking to Aussie or English press, but the global F1 fans, albeit via the RB Media Machine. He's just a very polished and slick corporate driver and a true professional.

As for the incident on track?? Who cares who's fault it was. Thats racing. Seb shouldn't have put the chop on, Mark should have left more room. Seb might have gone off track and lost it had Mark of maintained the squeeze into the braking zone and then only 1 car would have finished anyway.

Both were at fault, just 2 amazing racers getting too close. More of the same please boys!


Maybe they can do this because they achieved their objective immediately after the race. There has been a lot of talk about the team favouring Vettell, and I expect they do, but there is another explanation for Christian Horner's bizarre comments.

What if it had been Lewis Hamilton in second place, and he had done exactly the same to Webber as Vettell did? What would Horner have said then? He would have protested against Hamilton, no doubt about that, and sought to get him a ten place grid penalty in the next race for causing an avoidable accident. And he would probably have succeeded.

I suspect that Horner's comments, trying to make it a 50:50 incident, with Webber the more to blame if anything, were a smokescreen designed to try to avoid any danger of the stewards investigating the incident and penalising Vettel. If so, it was very effective.


Interesting theory but unlikely, I think. The immediate responses from Vettel, Horner and shortly after Marko to the incident weren't the stuff of a clever ploy but anger at Webber not acting as instructed.


One more thing about Steward's decision. A prime example is Vettel being given 5 grid place penalty for running into Kubica last year in Australia. That was a very similar incident. The difference this time is that Webber is Vettel's team mate and Webber still scored third place. I wonder why it is different this time around!!!!!

Prof Bolshaviks

Stewards don't punish this year unless it was an innocent mistake. (Monaco anyone)


Wow, that is the best read of the situation so far! I always wondered why Mark did not seem even MORE pissed off.

It would explain why Mark has not seemed even more pissed off in the press. Team mates have seemed much more pissed off in public, for even smaller instances.

A massive shunt like that should arouse the stewards. The team effectively "punished" itself, and then came out 50-50 to try to play down Seb's swervy behavior.

It all points to a "Golden" boy angle, but one where even Mark is helping with the baby sitting.


I think its more that Mark is giving the public the credit it deserves i.e he knows anyone with 1/2 a brain can figure it all out for themselves, so he doesn't feel the need to jump up & down like a buffoon, as he knows people will draw their own conclusions. Personally I think he has handled the whole incident with alot of dignity, & I bet there is more than one team principal along the pit lane thinking the same thing & remembering he is still not signed up for next year.


I totally agree, Aussie!

PK. (NZ)


If you look at the footage carefully you'll see Horner screaming out to Webber to move over. All the comments after that prove how much of a team Vettel Red Bull has become in 2 years.

If it was anybody except Vettel, Red Bull would've complained and possibly stewards would've sanctioned the guilty driver (in this case Vettel should've been). Stewards this season are arriving from completely different planet. Too tired to penalise anybody except Schumacher.

By the way James, off the topic question, what's the latest update on rule changing matter related to the Schumacher incident in Monaco? Any progress?


I agree the stewards should have sanctioned Vettel for an avoidable crash, Webber should make a formal complaint to the FIA then it'd all kick off, remember Alonso at McLaren ❓


I've been waiting for that to happen, (Finger boy penalized), because what he did was far worse than what Sandshoe Fixer did at Monaco. There are some strange things going on all right!



I commented on that in my original post on this. Your reactions in the heat of the moment are the true ones, surely?


I'm not sure about those heat of the moment 'move move!' comments by Horner are a sign of preferential treatment for Vettel.

Put yourself in his shoes, and if you're impartial as claimed, you don't care which driver wins the race. As long as it's a team 1-2.

Now if you saw that your leading driver was significantly slower leading to a passing move, you too would be praying for them to get out of the way and let the faster driver through and not risk a collision that takes both out of the race completely.


Seems to be a misunderstanding here: I'm fairly sure James meant Horner's reactions during the race being his 'true' ones! Right?


James was referring to Horner's "move move move" during the live telecast. No PR can hide live reactions.


No sure what you are refering to James.

Anyway, I am an Aussie & the only reason I post in this blog because this is the most honest blog out of the lot & comments posted are mostly factful as well. I have never been a big fan of Webber being that he never really won anything until last season. But I looked at the incident from a F1 fan point of view. Thanks anyway


Thats a very sharp point mate. CH is just the sort of bloke to do this. Snooker equivalent of a plant. Knocking Vettel safe with Webber, very clever and something I will give a bit more thought. Seems clear that if it was any 2 oposing drivers there would have been a stewards investigation.


I'll accept that some Ron-speak was the best initial response but it was Horner's subsequent alignment with Vettel that was a step too far in the wrong direction.


Interesting take on the comments regarding Stewards but everything that has come out of Red Bull since seems to negate that as being Horner's tactic.


Mark should only have given Seb more room if the team orders were that Seb should be allowed to win! I'm very disappointed to see Mark being made the fall guy for this. He's hit top form and the team don't seem to be pleased for him. How is that meant to make him feel?

Maybe Alonso will get sulky about the Ferrari not being good enough, scoot back to Renault (again) and leave a seat over there for Mark!


Good idea, except Farrari aren't doing so well, and I'd like to see Mark in a potential winning team next season.



But if we are to believe Marko (also check the new interview translation that I posted in an earlier comment), then Webber didn't know about the intended team orders, or "stating of facts" as Marko calls it (which IMHO is not that wrong a reading).


May be Redbull should use the lawyers who wrote contracts for Eddie Irvine and Rubens Barichello at Ferrari if they decide to renew Webber's contract


This is an awfully lame and contrived effort by Red Bull to try and extract PR mileage out of this. It just doesn't work.



I hope we dont have another Red bull video where Mark is apologising to Seb for not "giving him enough room" (aka "Barichello at Austrian GP on Schumi in 2002"ing for Vettel) That would make this even more Lame than it already is!!


I would rather think that they are trying to minimise the attention to this, its unquestionably turned into a complete disaster because of the way that Marko and Horner initially reacted.

I still don't know how they thought blaming Webber was going to somehow work, and protect Vettel's reputation, the media aren't stupid. All that they achieved was adding more fuel to the fire by showing blatant favouritism, supporting the accusations that they were trying to instigate team orders.


It looks like, and is delivered like, a hostage video.

Helmut Marko in balaclava standing just to the side of the camera, holding the cue-cards.


The only person, when this is all said and done, who comes out smelling like roses, with a raised profile, more fans and a guaranteed career in the media when he retires is Webber. I gotta say, I think, in the long run, this is the best thing that's ever happened to him. The sentiment is with him, he's in the fastest car, Ferrari (the biggest name in the game) are sniffing about and he's been nothing but gracious and laconic. This incident is a career changer for him.


It's true but in terms of the regulations this season, little things like the start of the race, and who pits first and fuel saving make a huge difference into the outcome of the race.

Early in the season, Vettel would pit first. Now that Webber has been leading Vettel in the last 3, Vettel is still pitting first. In Australia GP the biggest factor in Webber's awful race was the first pit stops that dropped him alot of time. I saw James mention this on Aussie TV. But there was no mention of this in the Redbull post race comments.

Everytime there is pitstops, I am very nervous. The only time I am 100% confident that RBR are behind Webber is if Vettel is a few places back, or if he has DNF'd. Hamilton did Webber a huge favour by repassing Vettel on lap 1.

The events on Sunday have done nothing to ease my concerns.. his reputation might have been improved, but I only care about seeing who does the best job on the track. And in future pitstops and especially during wet race tyre gambles, I will be very nervous for Webber.

I liked Vettel in the last 2 years, I rate his driving highly but I am slowly going off him. Firstly, he seems like a bad loser. Secondly, he would know if the team is leaning more towards his side.. Hamilton in 2007 wanting to beat Alonso fair and square. But Vettel seems only happy to have the team on his side.


Hamilton in 2007 wanting to beat Alonso fair and square. But Vettel seems only happy to have the team on his side.


Exactly my thought! I think Vettel still doesn't realize that track performance is the King while team support is something to make things even more perfect.


Thats a good point!


Emailed comment from a friend of mine: (I said I couldn't believe the spin they were applying for Princess Sebby)

You, and what appears to be the rest of the world except for Horner, Marko , and Vettel seem to be in agreement there. RBR are getting some serious rage against them in the forums. It’s clear that Vettel got special treatment all weekend in Turkey in order to try and beat Webber, and they seemed to be playing mind games on him as well. For example, Webber was meant to leave the pits last in Q3 so he would cross the line after Vettel, which is usually an advantageous position to be in during Q3, but they flipped that on him:

“Q: You chose to come out of the garage for your final flying lap ahead of Sebastian. The previous lap you would have been behind Sebastian. Was that trying to put pressure on him at that stage?
MW: No, I don't know what happened. It should have been me second. But, anyway, I think we left too early. I don't know what happened. We need to see what happened on the pit wall. Normally I would go second this weekend.”

Vettel was rolling his eyes at Webber when he made that comment in the post qualifying press conference.

Then there was the “damaged” tub they reckon Vettel had been driving around in that was meant to explain the performance gap between him and Webber over the last two races where Mark smashed him. So they made a new tub for him, despite Vettel setting the fastest lap in Monaco in said damaged tub??

Then the mysterious jump in engine performance for Vettel on lap 41. Did you see how quickly he gained on Mark? He was on his tail before the flat right kink. Not even Hamilton with a more powerful engine and a working f-duct that was providing 10kph extra got that close to Webber on that last straight like Vettel did.

The final straw was the “webbers crazy” motion he made, what a dick. Webber gave him just enough room and no more, as was his right, but the cause of the crash was absolutely Vettel turning right despite not being fully past Webber. How RBR can point the finger at Webber is beyond me. And why wasn’t Vettel investigated for causing an avoidable accident? Especially one that took out the leader.

Roll on Canada.


Thanks for that I didn't notice Seb's reaction to the order question in the Quali Press Conference. Strange to say the least. Or maybe not so strange given what we have seen since Sunday.

I'm an F1 fan rather than a fan of a particular driver. I like Mark and Sebastian but Seb is leaving himself down at the moment and certainly has some growing up to do and somethings to learn about racing.


Best post so far, especially regarding to huge difference in speed on that lap. How far down was Mark asked to turn his engine, as you said, Seb was on his tail at the kink.

Add to this the fact that Webber went to to set both fast lap times AND fast some of the fastest speed trap numbers of the race with his new nose cone and tyres.

Don't supposed you'd be willing to post your comments on the RedBull site (if you haven't already)?


They need to rebrand and call the team Red Bullsh*t.

It wouldn't suprise me in the slightest if MW digs in and makes a move for the WDC. The public are with him on this. SV will turn up with a point to prove in Canada and I suspect he may try and outdrive everyone, including himself and put it into a wall....


"put it into a wall"

exactly what I think will happen too!


I watch F1 to see racing! Marko and Christian apparently don't agree or are simply spinning Bull.... (not the red kind). Mark has been THE driver over the past few races and doesn't deserve this reaction. Sebastian is a man - so RedBull should treat him that way and stop wrapping their arms around him and protect him from the media. He simply made a mistake; learn and move on.


This is the same man that was crying on the pitwall and getting cuddles afterwards?


You have to feel for Webber. Redbull seem to be doing everything in there power to take this well earned oportuntiy from him.

Most telling for me is the talk by Marko and Horner regarding the threat of a Hamilton overtake. In one breath they are saying that Vetel had to get passed or Hamilton would have him. In the next they are saying it would have been a definite RB 2-1.

So are we to believe that Webber is better at keeping Hamilton behind him than Vetel is? Non-sense.

It is looking more and more like our German friends can not win titles unless they hold someone else back.

Wouldn't it be a shame if Vetel wins the championship and my statement above is his Championship legacy.


Agree Immi. I hate it when any of the teams take the fans or the media for fools. You don't have to be a race engineer with access to the cars telemetry data to know if what they are saying is true or not.


Did the stewards look at the incident at all?

It's difficult to imagine them not looking at it it if it were cars from two different teams and I don't see why the procedure should be different.


Having watched some extra footage on TV Sports news in NZ, that was not shown during the race re-plays, it's very clear that Mark was driving straight with his right tyres on the white lines at the edge of the circuit, and Webber basically tried to run him off, when he could have easily drove another extra 50 meters then positioned himself for the corner. Unlike the very long lenses used during the race re-plays. The shots in the TV news were taken with moderate angle lenses without the compression effects of the long lenses. I find it incredible that Red Bull management is blaming Webber.


Sorry, should have read "Vettel basically tried to run him off"


I've got no problem with team orders or a team having a no. 1 and a no. 2. I honestly don't think both drivers can be alloted equal opportunities. Equal machineries, yes. But equal support is a different thing altogether (as what Alonso was pointing out back in '07).

If a team were to implement team orders, they should do it in a coordinated manner (talk cryptically if necessary). But no, Red Bull decided to plot behind Webber's back, so it was only natural for him to react the way he did after he was challenged because he didn't know of "the plan".

Ron Dennis similarly conniving antics (favoring Hamilton) was exactly what blew McLaren's 2007 campaign. If you're gonna favor someone, no point in hiding it from the team (and the public), as it will just cause human resource problems.

Brent McMaster

James, I think the obvious immediate step for Mateschitz is to remove Marko. We, as fans, can overlook Vettel's immature jestures after he crashed, he was being an "angry surfer dude". What was sickening for fans, not just Red Bull fans, was the contempt the intellectual Dr Helmut Marko showed for us and Webber. Is Marko so ill informed that he does not know fans have the same timing screens in their living rooms for the race he does and our's showed Webber had the race under control. Hell, if Hamilton hadn't been able to get by Webber, there was now way "crash to pass Vettel" was going to...fairly.


Come on folks it's blatantly all about money, more specifically justifying budgets.

If Mark consistently beats Seb then it makes the costs of the RBR driver development programme, their current salaries and Torro Rosso very awkward to justify.

Then there's the investment potential in Seb, arguably the most marketable driver on the grid.

Basically, RBR will be a bigger team with more sponsorship and a bigger budget if Seb wins the w/c. If Mark wins then the management questions will be "Why didn't that German kid beat him, you know, the one we ploughed all that cash and trust into."

N. Machiavelli

"Then there’s the investment potential in Seb, arguably the most marketable driver on the grid."

Most marketable ? I think that depends on who you ask.

I will never EVER buy a product which is associated

with Vettel, after last weekend. For me, there is a permanent foul smell associated with Vettel and Red Bull.

In reality, Vettel has negative market value. Let me remind you that while German-speaking countries may still have a liking for Vettel, they represent a tiny number

of people compared to the English-speaking world. Red Bull is not able to finance an F1 effort via sales of its products in German-speaking countries alone, and I assure you they are aware of this. For Red Bull, it's "damage control" time, and they have their work cut out for them. Their very best

choice would be to support Webber for a WDC effort and

hope Vettel's behavior is forgotten. Herr Mateschitz : I just gave you advice worth many millions, you'd be wise to take it.

in any case, I wish only the best for Mark Webber. I admire Webber for his gentlemanly conduct, even more than for his superb driving skill. There are too many "Schuvettels" and not enough "Webbers" in this world. And the world is poorer for it.


Vettel's young, fast and stubborn but also as we've found out this weekend highly divisive. This mix creates a very strong brand of love/hate affection. It's how he'll get thousands of supporters in weird corners of the world ala Schumacher.

When he wins his first W/C this will have been all but forgotten about and I'm sure that the next time you're at a race you'll hardly turn down a free Vettel T-Shirt. So you'll hate yourself for it and probably wear it to the gym or while decorating...but you'll still be doing your bit for the brand!

Frankly I think that Autosport summed up Webber's recent speed best - 'inconvenient'.


I do agree. However I think to support a driver from this scheme in a situation like this, creates more problems and does a diservice to it's sponsors, and the team's reputation.

Are they professional, or are they going to show bias and support to a driver who was in the wrong. These young drivers should learn from mistakes, not be protected so blindly.

The racing team has to come first, the driver programme must support the team. Webber is experienced and im sure Red Bull do not want to get a reputation of being unable to handle experienced drivers.


To add to my previous post, I just found this...


Gald to see Mark coming out and talking about this and not putting too much blame on Vettel. Hope that red bull supports him more in the future. Werid that FOM are taking so long to remove the crash clips that are in either Czech or have no commentary up on youtube. The English, Spanish and Mclaren duel were taken down within hours not days and 100,000s hits. Probably just a coincidence though.


Mark is handling it very well.

It feels to me that Helmut Marko is saying what he thinks Dietrich Mateschitz wants to hear. This is what happens with coplicated governance structures with too many vested interests. Reality itself is distorted. Who out there agrees with RBR's stance on this?

Mateschitz must urgently give full responsibility to Christian Horner to deal with this as he sees fit, and consider revising the management structure of the team, or else Red Bull as a brand will suffer further still.

All of this is in no one's interest and, as has been pointed out by many others, the real damage was not the actual event, but how it is now being handled.


The approach of the Marko, Vettel and the Red Bull team management to this incident has been shocking, whilst at the same time Webber has been the model of professionalism.

I genuinely feel for the guy and whoever I supported for the chamionship before I now hope Webber takes it.

Sadly I can see Webber's contract not being extended becuase of this.


Thank you James, you know we can really understand the position of somebody (say an employee of a big company) making such comments. We might even support it.

As F1 fans we should (and could) allow us the luxury of honesty, although keeping it polite of course. I reckon most of us maybe forgot that Red Bull is just a (large) company selling some stuff (image, product etc).

We have only seen their “human side” showing up so this should be no surprise, really. Some technical guys could make it clear for rest of us this is something closely related to ”the good of the company”, that thing that always come first, you know.

But it was a disgrace for the sport and for themselves firstly (secondly for Mark), this is what it was - the way they handled it afterwards. The point loss in the WDC looks a minor issue next to this. As for Vettel I used to like him better that Mark (in fact “like“ is to be removed from Seb until further substantial development), now it’s the opposite. Guess a long time from now on


Helmut Marko has some bulls lose in the very old top paddock of his - he has opened his big mouth today again to blame Webber.

Only reason he blames Webber for all this is Vettel's the only result he has to show for the Red Bull driver training programme - he's defending his existance in the team.

Helmut Marko: Keep your big mouth shut - the only words that are required out of your mouth are: "Mark Im sorry for what I have said.'


What a huge difference between the way this is being handled and Ross handled the outburst from Rubens. I can't help thinking that what Red bull needs right at the moment is Ross Brawn's calm laid back skills.

It is now fairly evident that in spite of Horner's denial, Seb is the team's darling.


It's true. Ross Brawn is as cunning as the rest of them, he isn't any angel that is for sure. But he knows the importance of team building, PR and dealing with the media.

Ross Brawn would have quickly put a lid on the drama. Instead Marko and Horner opened up the can of worms.


There is no way that Webber was in the wrong. He had the lead and it’s up to Vettel to

take it way from him cleanly and not with muscle, they are team mates after all.

Vettel is again showing his immaturity.

Very disappointed with the lack of class that Red Bull have displayed in handling this situation.

Never was a big follower of Webber but I hope he finishes the season well ahead of Vettel.


I feel sorry for Mark Webber but my disliking of the Red Bull team is increasing. Even though Vettel is one of my favourite drivers, and Webber is another driver I like, the whole corporate image just stinks, and there handling of this situation just makes them stink even more.


Sums up my feelings completely. Well said.

richard cable

maybe the two red bulls side by side caused a “venturi effect” that sucked the two cars together. Put two strips of paper side by side blow between them and the two strips will join together. (similar to ground effect). Other drivers say that vittel seemed to swerve into them.


The cameras show that one car moved sideways, one didn't deviate until the other hit it. If it was venturi effect, Vettel's car wasn't stuck down as well as Webber's.


"venturi effect” ... yeah... thats the ticket!

Works for me!


How would you explain the multitude of clean passing manouvres in F1 over the years?

Other drivers say that because he has to use agression where his skill is lacking.


There is also now an interview with Christian Horner now on the Red Bull website if people have not yet noticed, and interestingly enough he does appear to have changed his tone somewhat

"We had a unique situation during the Turkish GP where the first four cars were separated by two seconds, with Mark having led every lap until lap 40. The race was the fastest of the season to date with all four drivers pushing each other extremely hard. On lap 38, Mark changed his mixture setting based on his fuel consumption to a slightly leaner mode, which had an average lap time loss of about 0.18 seconds, whilst maintaining the same revs. Sebastian had conserved more fuel than Mark during the race and therefore was able to run in a slightly better mode for an additional couple of laps. On lap 38 and 39, Sebastian’s pace picked up and he closed right up to the back of Mark while under considerable pressure from Hamilton behind. After a very strong run through Turn 9, Sebastian got a run and strong tow and moved to the left to pass Mark. Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right. As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one two-finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room."

In fairness I think it would probably be an even bigger PR own goal to openly or subtly criticise Vettel in the way Mark was on Sunday. The spotlight will be further increased on Red Bull in the coming races, and so I hope both drivers will be given a fair shot at the title.


Anytime Horner says "they should have given each other more room" he's referring to Mark. They still think he should have moved over. Also, Vettel had plenty of room, maybe not enough for him to brake on a clean part of the track, but who gets to do that when they are overtaking anyway.Its the gamble you take.

Also, on the on board footage on lap 40 between corner 7-8 Vettel changes a setting on his wheel.. Have a look and see what you think.Someone may have a better idea of the layout of the wheel.. Its one thing to have Webber change to a leaner mode to conserve fuel, but if Vettel changed to a richer fuel mix to pass Mark than i find that a little suspect. How much fuel did they have left anyway.??Anyway of finding out.. After the incident was Webber still on a lean mixture.?? He was certainly lapping well.


I have no problem with this statement from Horner, except he is missing the most important part. "And we apologise to Mark for any comments made from team management that attributed sole blame to him for the incident". Add those lines in and I'll accept the above statement and move on.


I'm beginning to realize that the root of Turkey´s GP problems is that it is still possible for the guys in the pits to control the speed of the cars. And consequently its positions.

Fuel left data should be mandated to be calculated onboard with no intervention from the pit guys so that the pilot can decide when to save fuel, or turn down the engine on its own.

Possibly far less accurate, so the indications should err on the safe side, but that will certainly add to the show, specially if the pilots get it wrong.

It would be necessary to work out a lot of details but that way, at least us, the spectators can be more confident that there are no "black hand" or "team unfairness" to a pilot.


KERS should help the racing if all of the cars have equally effective systems for that reason. There'll be more opportunity for drivers to decide how and where to use it relative to the cars and drivers they're in company with on the track, and the particular part of the track.


It's true and that is why MotoGP is so good for example. No pit to car radio and the drivers/riders make their own management and their own decision.

The way it is now, it's like a big game of chess with the guys in the pits pulling the strings.

It would allow the drivers more heat of the moment decisions, and also add more unpredictability.

I think the reason Button attacked Hamilton is because a - he saw the Redbull's and remembered that this is infact a motor race.. b - adrenaline is contagious. c - He momentarily forgot that this is F1 and your not supposed to race each other or overtake.


I never thought of it like that but if engineers can control fuel mix and you stretch the arguement to its fullest extent the race becomes a big game of scalextric. In this context giving the driver responsibility to manage the fuel seems a sensible idea and another one to add help increase the spectacle


Interesting that Red Bull's best bet for calming the waters is Mark Webber. Christian Horner has not put out a video explanation, but he has issued a rather weak open letter to the Red Bull community:


The guy who was blamed by the team for the problem is the only one that has talked any sense! It's amazing isn't it.


I hope Vettel comes out too. And I hope it is sincere and not PR speak. We'll see at Canada.

@Anthony, I don't think anyone takes Horner's opinion seriously outside Mr. Marko, so it wouldn't make any difference. The stewards probably though what I did at the moment: it was a racing incident. It shouldn't have been much more had RBR not managed it so horribly wrong after the race. Like Mark said in the video, PR-talk or not, it happens, let's move on.


I hope Webber doesn't allow his straight talking to stop, he needs to remain strong and not accept he's second to server Vettel (as Vettel clearly swerved into Webber as he did Hamilton, not forgetting when he tried the same in the pits should the FIA not get involved ❓

James an opinion from you on this ❓


I don't see Webber changing. He can use this situation to his advantage anyway


I too hope you're right.


I hope you're right. There will be a lot of eyes watching Red Bull now to make sure they're not knobbling Webber. Hopefully Webber will keep his eye on the prize of this year's world championship.


Whether Webber wins this WDC or not, he has gone against his own teams script and made this season and this title chase much more interesting. For that alone, we as fans of racing should be happy. It's even better then Button is doing the same in McLaren. A true 4 way battle at the moment.


James, Once again I salute the quality of your artical, short clear and to the point! And again,enjoy the depth and understanding of F1 by 90+% of the bloggers who are loyal readers. Thanks!


I think Sebastian Vettel had been drinking too much red bull. He clearly moved across infront of Webber. The pressure is getting to the young man and he has shown in the past that he cracks under pressure at times and crashes. Webber for the title.


well it just seems to me that Vettel is a "Manufactured" race driver as Nigel Mansell put it. He came across as a humble nice guy when he started but now I guess has realized that the whole team and its owners are behind him no matter what he does. ( I still cant digest the fact that a team is blaming Mark and getting away with it, poor Mclaren got so much stick in 2007 even though they were largely impartial)

Vettel has made some silly mistakes in the past and doesnt seem to learn from it. some humility would perhaps set him right

so as ironic as it may sound I hope Webber wins the world championship for Vettel's sake


Don't get me wrong, but I loved the race, the desire to win, the desire the be the best! This is what brings a good show. Vettel could have opted to end the race in second place (good for his championship hopes) same for Button, but both tried their luck... of course Vettel gamble did not paid off, but I think it is great that they are taking these chances.


I agree, but not at the expense of your team mate, regardless of it’s for the lead or for 10th place. Button and Hamilton proved that they are true racers. They pushed hard but left each other just enough room. Vettel is starting to drive like another famous German with an all me or nothing else attitude.


Being a Brit working in Switzerland, it's perfectly normal to adjust the way you talk depending on who your audience is.

If I spoke to most of the people here as I do with my English colleagues (and I quickly found this through experience..), they wouldn't have a clue want I was saying!


Same here in Canada with my North London accent - I'm from Saffgyte ;). It's especially hard for people that have learnt English as a second language.

Michael Whitfield

Regarding Mark's requirement to save fuel on lap 41 (which coincidentally allowed Vettel to close in), funny how he set 2nd fastest lap on lap 54 and was at some points fastest on track.


Yep... once RBR heard on the FOM TV footage that the McLarens were "saving fuel" (ahem, cough). That message went out to Webber, who then got faster... but how could he do that, if he was struggling with fuel levels himself?


James, what is the opinion of the other employees at Redbull? Is Mark favoured by the staff at Milton Keynes? If a split is coming it'll be interesting to know who will be supporting who.

Marko and Marschetiz (sp?) clearly favour Vettel and Horner seems to be the puppet here. I'd be very interested to here an honest opinion from Adrian Newey on this one.


RBs Christian Horner has just put out a piece which calls the blame evenly across the drivers. I think he's done well there, reacted to what's happened and stopped RB looking so out of step. Well done CH.

It's also interesting that Mark has kept his head above the parapet, said positive things, not let himself blame Vettel outright but put out the facts as he saw them. Massive difference from SV who's disappeared after a brief 'he's a loony' sign. It makes MW look like the clear team leader, the one calling for unity. Good job Mark, I make you Red Bulls clear #1... 😛


When I saw it live I instantly thought Seb was making the 'crazy' sign about himself i.e. what was I thinking? That was a crazy move!

But maybe it was aimed at Mark.


Horner defends Vettel for having a run at Webber, because he says that to back him off would have led to him being passed by Hamilton,

Does Horner think we are all idiots????

There was NO imminent threat from Hamilton to Vettel. At the time of the incident the gap between Vettel and Hamilton was biggest it had been over the previous 10 laps!!!!


On the BBC coverage, someone raised the question about Vettel's ability to overtake. In the past there has been much comment that he only seems to win races through strategy and luck, not overtaking. Is this just another case of Vettel's poor overtaking abilities? What do people think?


He's certainly no Hamilton or Alonso when it comes to making a pass. I can't recall him actually ever making a pass beyond lap 1 except on back-markers.


Actually Vettel passed Hamilton in the Brazilian GP 2008. By Vettel passing Hamilton, Massa was going to be the champion until the Toyota of Timo Glock let both Vettel and Hamilton passed.

My point is: Hamilton did race Vettel & Vettel passed him on that race (it was raining though)


Yeah, but you've got to factor in the extreme difference in pressure, Hamilton his first world championship on the line, Vettel just a nice wet Sunday outing! and that Hamilton had been put off line at the time by another driver (forget who, sorry). The way Hamilton re-passed Vettel in Turkey with both in equal situations would probably be a more accurate litmus test (noting that Vettel had got into 2nd off the clean side of the grid). And the stats and video compilations will tell you all you need to know anyhow: Hamilton is easily the best overtaker out there, bar none.


He overtook Barichello around the outside in Brazil last year.

The thing with Redbull's cars in the last 2 years, their strength in midcorner apex speed. Cars that are good overtaking cars are cars that are good in top speed. So it's always hard to overtake unless you have KERS or Fduct or just a slippery aero car.

Webber overtook Alonso twice last season in the dry, in Spain and Malaysia, it is harder but it's possible. Button did some great overtakes last year in a similar car that lacked top speed. It is correct to doubt Vettel's abilities until he proves otherwise, all I am saying is that if he was driving this years McLaren, he would be having alot easier time to overtake. Rosberg is another one, where there is some doubts.


Certainly Sunday’s incident adds more public display of tensions between the two drivers. But the competition between team mates is a constant undercurrent, has been since day 2.

However, F1 has always been a cutthroat sport both on and off the track. Surely there isn’t a driver on the grid who would gift a points position to another. Although I guess Rubens might have a lot to say on the subject.


Isn't that what Button did when Hamilton repassed him in turn one? If Button was as stubborn as Webber they would have crashed. But Button didn't have pole and hadn't lead the first 40 laps, so the situation was a little different. I think there is quite a few drivers who would have yielded to Vettel in that situation. They were tied on WDC points though, so hats off to Webber for holding his ground. People would be saying Webber is weak, if he had of yielded.


This is, and has been from day one, pretty much a non-story. The fan criticism, such as it is, is largely whipped up by the media -- whose articles have clearly been trying to get Horner and Marko to apportion all the blame with one driver. They very clearly didn't want to do that, and were well aware both drivers were to blame. Can we move on to the next media-hyped "scandal" now, please?


Sounds like you work for RBR, mate!

Horner and Marko DID apportion ALL the blame to one driver, Webber!!!!!!!!


Actually you couldn't be more wrong. F1 fans aren't stupid (as you're implying). In fact it's Horner's and, in particular, Marko's comments, not the media, that have caused F1 fans to respond with such anger on the blogs and forums. RBR shouldn't have treated us like fools, neither should you.

N. Machiavelli

"This is, and has been from day one, pretty much a non-story."

Most all your comments are negative or contrary. But in this
case you're also flat wrong. Of course the thousands of people who posted on various websites might be wrong,
but they aren't.

Webber is a driver many of us respect, and that is a positive thing and something F1 sorely needs after drivers like Schumacher.


Well there has always been an unspoken vibe within the paddock that Vettel is the RBR darling.

After a shunt at 300kph while leading 1-2 and leading the championship, it's quite a news story don't you think? Highlighted because of the news of Webber being told to save fuel, and the conflicting comments of both Horner and Marko.

Vettel being the RBR darling is not so unspoken anymore.


As the saying goes, it's not the crime, but the cover up.

This was a racing incident. However, the reactions from the team management and owner suggest that there was a manufacturing attempt going on during the race and a cover up attempt afterwards.

If team management is operating against a driver who is actually leading the championship, it is not media hype. It really is a scandal.


It was a non-story until Horner and Marko opened their gobs. James rightly says that it is the initial reaction that is most revealing and it is that revelation that's the real story.


I actually found it fascinating! same as the Alonso-Hamilton scandals in 2008, this add a new dimension to the sport. Yes I liked the races, but if & when you add the human component to them it creates more attention to the small details.

It will be very interesting to see how the Vettel-Webber and Hamilton-Button plays out.

We may even get a Massa-Alonso fight too including Schumacher-Rosberg. What a lucky year


Red Bull needs to stop babying Vettel, where is his statement?

I would be interested to see a poll on wether you readers have lost respect for Red Bull as a result of this incident.


I guess all the fan backlash paid off!


[b]Red Bull accepts Webber not to blame[/b]


Now they just need to accept it was Vettel's mistake, because Webber doesn't owe Vettel any space as long as he isn't trying to ram him off the road and that certainly wasn't a case.


Mark wins over me. There were second drivers who moan and moan how they were unequally being treated, and of course Rubens is the greatest of them all.

The fact of the matter is that the pace don't lie. You can't contractually slow someone down.

Sometimes it's better to go down fighting in flame than let your team boss and NO1 driver bully you.

If you don't want to be NO2 you raise your game and match your teammate. That is exactly what Mark is doing. I thought Vettle was entertaining, but Mark is showing some depth in his character.

Clearly, his pace is making Red Bull management very uncomfortable.

If Mark doesn't get contract extension after this season, he can keep his chin up and walk out like a champion.


Although Christian Horner's latest statement refers to the collision as a racing incident he fails to address the main issue, that of the team management's response following. Instead he states, "The Turkish Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won't happen again." What have these drivers learnt other than where they stand in the driver pecking order? What the fans want to know is if the management have learnt their lessons.

Red Bull fans need to know whether or not their drivers have equal status. The only person who can shut this whole sorry affair down is Dietrich Mateschitz. If I was him and I wanted to convey the message that the drivers are equal, I would instruct Helmut Marko not to interfere anymore with the management of the Red Bull F1 team and restate my confidence in Christian as the principal and ultimate decision maker of the team. Unfortunately all the evidence points to the contrary.

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall of Mark's contract renegotiation for next year. I'm sure that a clause entitling equal treatment and equipment will be included before he signs on the dotted line.


James, Has any section of the media managed to speak to Bernie? If so do you think he is enjoying the added PR or is he concerned about how one of his most favoured drivers and teams are now being perceived? If Mark Webber does in fact win the WDC do you also think that this will harm his future plans in relation to certain driver promotion of F1?


Good questions. The publicity for the sport is very good, it's intense competition, rivalry etc all good. He will back Vettel to the hilt


Is that because he told Red Bull to hire him. Bernie might be in the sh#t too. He hasn't said a thing.


Honestly, I've never seen or heard Bernie mention Webber's name once.. ever. That says all you need to know. Bernie sees the world through dollar signs, and when he looks at Webber he sees nothing.

I was actually hoping Brundle would bring up Webber on the prerace gridwalk, just to see what he would say. "Webber's on a bit of a roll at the moment hey Bernie, what do you think?"

Hamilton has Nicole Sherzinger jumping up and down, and the next closest thing that Vettel has to Nicole is Bernie.


OK, than on the same notes: James can you please ask Mr Michael Schumacher - anytime soon enough - for his (advised) opinion on this eventually-racing incident, thank you?


I posted on the RBR website, it takes years to build a brand, and moments to ruin it. Without being overly dramatic, the handling of this incident (rather than the incident itself) has done significant damage to the Red Bull brand. Certainly more damage , financially, than just losing points in the championships. But more than that, it has undermined the values which Red Bull have built up over such a long time. Damaging stuff indeed.

N. Machiavelli

"I posted on the RBR website, it takes years to build a brand, and moments to ruin it."

I couldn't agree more !

Red Bull were apparently hypnotized by short-term goals,

and they really f*cked up this time.


I don't think it's the brand as such, more the vitriol directed at Vettel on an unprecedented scale. I believe Webber has got a raw deal here, but don't believe Vettel has been that bad, although in the wrong. If this had been directed at Marko, Horner or Red Bull more squarely, I don't believe it would be having the effect it has, when mainly directed at Vettel.


I'm amazed at how emotional many people on this forum are over this, thinking Red Bull is trying to spoil Mark's success. As far as I can see, there has been no indication that they have favoured Vettel during the time they've raced together, both drivers have been able to race to the best of their ability. Just because the team wishes that Webber had given more room to his team mate in this instance does not mean they are anti-Webber, pro-Vettel. Don't reach too far with your conclusions people, there's no need to make a war out of everything.


Not wishing to appear emotional, the "thing" that has annoyed most people is that, as has been pointed out repeatedly above, it was the fact that initially, Horner seemed to blame the drivers equally, but after Marko's blame Webber statement, Horner changed his tune.

Mark held his line and Seb wanted to be off the dirty side of the track. If Seb had driven straight, he would have been ok - his line compromised on corner entry and Mark would have had a chance to get back at him in the same way that Lewis got Jenson - "hard but fair".

Drivers in the past have commented that they knew they could pull a certain move on a particular driver (not their teammate) because they would react in a certain way - brinkmanship if you like. I believe Seb thought he could ease Mark to the right a bit to get himself a better line for the corner - a miscalculation on Seb's part and not a mistake he will make again (if he's smart). Drivers lay down markers - you can push me so far and no further, this was one instance which ended up costing a lot more than 1st and 2nd.


Have you been paying attention to the Vettel-Webber and Marko dynamic since the winter last season? Actually it goes back earlier then that. Marko spoiled DC's announcement of retirement the year before, because his new boy Vettel was coming through. Did you know who Marko was before this event?

Well alot of people did. James for example, noticed something in Nurburgring last year. In fact, it's always been a bit of an unspoken thing in the paddock that Vettel is Redbull's darling.. things like how they talk about the drivers in the press, testing programmes, pit strategies etc.

So it's not just about the Turkish GP weekend.


you can see marko in the movie the speed merchants. He had a special day at the targa florio, and won it, but soon after retired, blinded in one eye by a stone thrown by another car in the french gp. I remember when he had his f3000 team, gave a chance to montoya, and the relationship ended up with montoya leaving the next year to super nova and winning the title. A very difficult person to work for i would assume.


I'm sure Vettel is Red Bull's darling, given that he is a graduate of their program. However, are there any examples where Red Bull sacrificed Webber's race in order to get Vettel into better position? I maintain that, as far as I can see, Red Bull has allowed both drivers to race to the best of their ability. Maybe I'm wrong, but certainly Red Bull is not treating Mark the same way Irvine/Barrichello were treated at Ferrari when they were partnering Schumi, or the way Trulli/Piquet Jr. were treated at Renault when they were driving with Alonso.


I concur. Christian Horner's handling of the two always seems to me to have been very fair in spite of the forces that are clearly at work in the organisation that would prefer Vettel to prevail.

However, as I have posted below, "fuel saving" interference by team managers during the race is becoming so contentious that the FIA should be seriously considering what measures they can take to stamp it out altogether. I have absolutely no doubt that drivers can be presented with sufficient information on their computer display to manage fuel use themselves. And in that circumstance, if they were to run out of fuel before crossing the line, on their own heads let it be.

But then I have always tended to take the view that F1 drivers should have to use their grey matter just as much as their heavy right boots.


It'll be interesting to see who gets what support if they are getting a beating in Montreal practise - and how they handle it.

I'm sure the drivers will do their best but a loss there will only add to the pressure in the team and if they then follow up with another loss in Valencia......look out for cracks.

We all expected a dire season after Bahrain and look at us now!


I have to say, I'm rather disappointed with the behavior of Dr Marko & Christian Horner. They really should have keep this all in house and not air their dirty laundry in public. Very unprofessional of them.


The one and only person who can hold his head high in this matter is Mark Webber.


To the many thousands and probably millions of fans who may read this site occasionally . . . "Loose" means "not tight, slack etc" while 'LOSE' means "to not win, to be unsuccessful". I mourn the passing of literacy. I am sick of people loosing the plot! 😉


James, as a journalist and a professional blogger, have you ever seen outrage like this online? Even crash-gate didn't seem this intense. has thousands of comments now for several of their recent stories, 90%+ of which are of anger towards the teams actions post-race.

To give you an idea, if you have a look at their articles from the Monaco weekend, the most I can find is less than 20 comments on any one article.

I think you can already addressed this, but can you confirm that a team do take this sort of thing seriously, or is it easy to just brush off as a vocal minority of obsessed fans?


I think their reaction today says it all.



This whole saga does highlight a couple of very important subjects :-

1. The subject of driver popularity and Media handling - Yourself James wrote an interesting piece on just how relaxed and well received JB has been at McLaren because he is a very well rounded and total professional who is comfortable in his own skin. This is of huge benefit to team and it was obvious that the team had warmed to him.

Mark has a very honest style to handling of the media and to me he looks likes he's worked long and hard to perfect all aspects of his working within a team, not just his driving.

2. Respect - ( from the dictionary - Esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person. ) In this media driven world where its very difficult to believe anything which is said then to achieve Respect from ones peers and bosses is a very difficult thing to keep and grow. Mark's respect has not been damaged with this incident but SV has been hurt ( a small amount )due to his gesturing and his outburst (understandable due to his youth) but ....... good Guys hold their hands up when things don't go right ( no shame in this )and while they may not win a WDC then fans and peers respect rises immeasurably. Respect is a very old fashioned virtue but its one of the most important.

I'm afraid my respect for CH and H.Marko has sunk dramatically, with their dihonest handling of this situation.


According to Autosport, Horner has toned down a bit and now says that Webber is not to blame. Took his time! Maybe the posts on the RBR website made them think a bit harder?


he said both drivers didnt give each other space...exactly what he said right after the race. so he didnt change a thing in what he said.

media is playing the 'fans' and it is the english speaking fans who are manilupated the most...wantingly probably because they only support english speaking drivers anyhow....and are against especially german drivers.

N. Machiavelli

"t is the english speaking fans who are manilupated the most…wantingly probably because they only support english speaking drivers anyhow….and are against especially german drivers."

The above could not be more wrong.

Lauda was my favorite driver for years, and he is Austrian, while I am from the US.

It is the CONDUCT of the driver, not his nationality, that

makes all the difference for some of us. Perhaps you should

consider this before you assume we are all driven by simplistic nationalistic motives.


Yeah I'm sure Dr Marko agrees. *rolleyes*

Christian Horner did all he could I suppose, it seems his arms are tied behind his back.

The logic by Horner is flawed.

If Webber was slower and Vettel was under "intense pressure" from Hamilton (to which you yourself James said was a steady 1.2 second gap).. then surely Webber would have been eaten alive once in engine saving mode. So the 1-2 would have been gone. It would have been 1-4 best case scenario.

Unless the McLaren's were also struggling with fuel, in which case it would have remained Redbull 1-2 BUT which makes it clear that there was no reason to risk a 1-2 by wanting two hotheaded drivers to overtake each other on track.

The way Marko blamed Webber's engineer for not informing him properly, combined with all of the above.. combined with the new chassis for Seb, the quali confusion, and Vettel pitting first yet again, factoring all that in.. it's very team orderish, without actually being strictly team orders. It would also explain Vettel's reaction, if he was thinking it was team orders and that Webber would make it easier.

We will have to take Horner's word for it, because it seems sure Marko or Vettel won't be saying anything about it. They are probably hugging each other and swearing Webber's name as we speak.

It's about as close as Webber will get to an apology. Which isn't very close. Horner's latest comments are more diplomatic but still firmly seem to be in the Vettel side of things. There wasn't much mention of fuel saving, and lots of mention of pressure from Hamilton and Webber being slower.

As you noted James, this seems like one of those issues divided by the language barrier. On English speaking sites, the polls are stictly against Vettel. But on official F1 website, which is a universal site for all languages, it's pretty even.

Harriet and Blah Blah Nyborg

What's all this nonsense about Webber's age too? I've seen Horner and this Marko character both talk about how Webber isn't so young so he should only get one year extensions to his contract. By my reckoning, aren't there at least 4 other drivers older than Webber right now: Barrichello, Schumacher, De La Rosa and Trulli? They all deserve to be in F1 at their age. He's 33 for god's sake, not 43!


Looks like "Randy Mandy" tried to ditch Young Vettel and get closer to an older and wiser Aussie.


The problem with all of this looks to be Marko. Although the stance has been modified a lot of the points do not stand up to logic when considered as a whole. The problem squarely lies with having an influential intermediate in the form of Marko, between the team owner and manager.


I agree that Marko's credibility is shot. Most serious F1 fans who know him don't take him too seriously, but when he was talking to German RTL TV and blaming Webber, that's not very nice is it? Especially for the German viewers who don't follow F1 seriously.

Here is a small list of Helmut Marko's social ineptitude.

- Blew the annoucement of DC's retirement because of his excitement of Vettel going into DC's seat (insensitive to DC)

- In the winter of 09 while Webber was struggling with fitness and a broken leg, kept talked about how slow Webber was and how Vettel was wiping the floor with him in testing

- Makes blatant cocky statements that makes the team as a whole look bad.. saying things like "with Merc engines he'd be uncatchable at the front".

- Takes Vettel's side in everything, he is basically Vettel's propaganda minister

- In generally insensitive and just blurts stuff out, without thinking beforehand.

If Marko was Vettel's father, he would be seen differently. But he is the consultant to team owner, and is an official spokesperson in the team. Marko's comments are seen as "team" comments.

As long as he is working within the team, I have no respect for Marko or for the Redbull brand and team as a whole. And I have no idea how Webber is able to be so calm and diplomatic in these situations.


Marko is head of " The RB driver development prog" and as SV is a protégée then he is pretty biased. Also I gave him huge respect for winning Le Mans. .... but after your comments .... the man has lost all my previous respect.


After watching the race myself i can draw only two conclusions for the sudden turning in by vettel on his team mate, either he had a senna moment or as I believe his right rear tyre blew and slewed him around. It was clearly flat as they parted company once more but did it deflate as a result of the impact or was it the true cause of the impact, time onlyu will tell on that but I don't believe he deliberately took himself out of the race.


If he had of blown the right rear he would have veered left!


Watching the replays (espescially the slow mo's on the forum) from on-board Webber's car, Vettel's right rear is fully inflated when hit hits Webber's left front. It was the collision with the floor of Webber's car that shredded the sidewall.


So cringe!!!

Also RE Vet v Ham move, I think there isn't really too much there, just hyped up after the webb vet incident.


Well, F1's also a mind game, ain't it? Of course McLaren will rub salt in the wounds and try to rattle their opponent more. Apart from Lewis, other McLaren people had a go at the incident as well. I'm not a McLaren fan, but I have to admit they know the tactics. Had to laugh when Hamilton was talking to Webber post-race.


Whether or not Red Bull prefer Vettel to win over Webber I think there is really no indication that the better of the two drivers on the day has not been allowed to win in the past. However Christian Horner is absolutely entitled to expect them not to collide with each other. In fact that must be virtually the most important condition of employment for any racing team to impose on their drivers. Until LH understeered into Jense and banged wheels with him the McLaren drivers showed how to do it.

To expect one driver not to pass the other when he is clearly faster, as Vettel was, effectively amounts to race fixing. Monaco is perhaps the only place where that is justifiable to some extent. I think Mark will have been read the riot act, quite rightly, and told if he wants to drive the fastest car out there in future, to engage brain and give his team mate room to race.

It would be nice to think that after a few days considering what happened petrol heads will also engage brain and stop childishly blaming Vettel for a racing incident in which both participants made mistakes. If pigs had wings they will!


Is a car width not sufficiant racing room?

N. Machiavelli

"To expect one driver not to pass the other when he is clearly faster, as Vettel was, effectively amounts to race fixing. "

You've conveniently overlooked the Red Bull team instructed

Webber to conserve fuel while at the same time instructing

Vettel to increase power. THAT is race fixing. You obviously

are new to F1, or you'd have noticed that without me pointing

it out 🙂


Funny thing is, I've probably been watching F1 longer than almost anyone here!

I'm a little puzzled. Do F1 fans nowadays actually want cars to pass each other, or do they simply prefer processions? Maybe that's what they've become so accustomed to in recent years that a bit of actual overtaking throws them into a tizzy and they wet their nappies.

I find it interesting that a mass mindset seems to be developing (among Brit fans at least) in which Vettel is almost becoming the new Schumacher, almost a hate figure to be put down at every opportunity. As I pointed out, Mark the new Brit hero who can do no wrong, has had one or two dodgey days himself, threatening to take off anyone in his way, and succeeding in fact. Or perhaps you've got short memories.

The simple fact is, Mark didn't keep clear of his team mate as the team required him to do, perfectly reasonably. If he hadn't done his best to squeeze Vettel onto the grass the collision probably wouldn't have occurred. I cannot think of any F1 team manager out there who doesn't expect their employees to give each other room while still allowing them to race each other. When you consider the enormous sums of money involved in this game, and all the pressure, that is the least they can expect.

And if you think this was an example of race fixing, then what about Jense being told to "save fuel" for almost all the race,(unlike his team mate)? If any race fixing was going on, that was far more blatant, although you don't seem to have even noticed it.


Nonesense, Mark gave him room, (only just enough, but enough) Vettel then moved into Webber causing the crash, it's all on video, clear as day.
Its OK to support Vettel if you want to, not OK to deny that Vettel hit Webber, not the other way round. An overtake is when you get past another car, not 3/4 past then whack its front wheel.
The thing that are p**ng people off are:
1 denying clear evidence (who moved over)
2 making up stuff (LH closing in)
3 derogatory comments (tizzy/nappy)
4 casting aspersions (McL more race fix)

OK we don't agree, thats OK. You're not the worst apologist for Vettel / RB. But I think your arguments are weak. Greatest respect, etc, own opinion, but for me, codswallop



No big deal, but just for accuracy's sake ... I should maybe mention that the McLaren's didn't actually touch.

The bump you saw was Hamilton coming down off the inside kerb, simultaneously Button was already beginning the countersteer and backing-off to give them both the required space. Frame-by-frame, I couldn't find any evidence of contact.


You seem to forget that they were racing until Vettel turned across Webber, hitting MWs car with his wheel.

Your assertion that Webber must move aside if SV shows more speed is nonsense. It would be OK, if Vettel would have to do the same if the situation were reversed. Mark could do the same in return by turning up his engine. He clearly had the fuel as he put in a bunch of quick laps after getting a new nose.

Apart from the 'who's fault is it' for the crash (85% Vettel IMO), there are also issues like who gets the new wings first, who goes last during Q3, who gets to use the over-rev button, who pits first onto faster tyres. This all points to whether 1 person gets more support than the other in the garage.


This debacle is a classic case of micromanagement by parties that should be nowhere near the pointy end of the RB Racing hierarchy. You see it all the time in industry – managers meddling with processes and procedures they are unequipped for. Horner needs to be left alone to manage the drivers as he sees fit, without consequence from other parties (Marko, et al) who have private ulterior motives (justifying their expensive driver program).


This Dr Marko is just a joke, Horner should have none of it as it makes him appear as just a puppet and not a real team principle.

Having read the Redbull open letter all I can say is what a load of rubbish that is, we all saw and heard what Horner and Marko though and we al saw boohoo Vettel being hugged didn't we ❓


Its this why we love F1?



All I want to know is do the f1 team mechanics still hold a raft race before the Canadian GP on the lake?

If they do who's favourite to win that one!!

I remember when f1 used to be about fun 🙁



now that mosley is gone, we have a new evil to entertain ourselfs with. This f1 recycles itself in a wonderfull way.


Vettel should be sat out for Canada while he decides if he's driving for Team Sebastian or Team Red Bull.


Edgy, eh ? Does Junior think this gives him the right to edge over ?

David Turnedge

Fascinating what you say about his speech. As an Australian it's obvious he's not speaking like an Aussie, but I have heard him speak naturally (rarely) to the media - especially on Australian TV - all power to the guy! I hope he wins in Canada!


I know this is a bit off-topic James, but I wonder what are your feelings on both McLaren and Red Bull having to save fuel during the race in Turkey. Have Red Bull been doing this to the same extent in the previous races and is this the key to their extraordinary qualifying pace? Has McLaren realised this and reacted by running with less fuel or is there evidence that they have also been turning their engines down in previous races?


Its weird this, isn't it ? Martin Brundle says in his column that he's calculated that a car can gain about 6 seconds over a race by starting with a litre less fuel in the tank. That doesn't seem to me very much, considereing how much he loses by going slow at the end, and how fast the cars can go towards the end of the race when they're light.

Do you think they'll all be looking at this again James ? Do the figures add up for you ?


I'm going to do something on this shortly


There are some funny comments here. Thanks for that. I reckon the data shows Vettel's mistake though Red Bull would never admit it publicly. That Marko guy is an ass for saying poor Seb is so unlucky...has he forgotten that Mark was generally considered to be the unluckiest driver in F1 until this year? This face saving to justify their young driver program (over someone like Webber's own self-financed driver program) is ridiculous.

Anyways, Webber is one classy guy. That he can suck it up and be so diplomatic for the best interests of the team speaks volumes of this as he certainly could be a lot less diplomatic as other drivers in the past have been in similar situations.

But while he may be presently winning the moral high ground, I wonder if this diplomacy is not hurting his championship bid by allowing doubt into the picture. I do not advocate violence, but had he punched out Vettel after the race he certainly would have shown his true feelings of the event and demonstrated his resolve to establish himself as the team's alpha male. After all, Vettel's reckless move was no less rude, violent or dangerous than a good punch to the kisser. I think Webber can take him, on or off the track. 🙂

N. Machiavelli

"I do not advocate violence, but had he punched out Vettel after the race he certainly would have shown his true feelings of the event"

A man like Webber lets his driving do the punching.

And Vettel can't take those punches, isn't that obvious

from his childish responses ?

In the US, we call someone like Vettel a punk, because

that's what he is.


Haha I like Vettel but his behavior in Turkey warrants the punk label in Canada too. This is a big chance for him to grow up and learn something if he is open to it. If Red Bull really wants to continue to develop his talent, coddling him in these kinds of situations will do him no good in the long run.

Of course Webber is too professional to punch a teammate, so I made my comment mainly to make a point that unprofessional behavior is often forgiven if someone is a winner or otherwise favored, such as may be the case here.


I wonder if Vettel would have twirled his finger like that if Webber also came to halt?

I doubt it.


Agreed, Marko's an arse ❗


Everybody assumes Webber would have won the race in front of Vettel and Hamilton, but maybe his speed/fuel situation meant that he was bound to be overtaken by Vettel and/or Hamilton sooner or later? Maybe the team wanted to see the safer option of a faster Vettel making a run for it instead of a slow Webber giving the McL a chance to catch up, only that Webber did see this differently or was not told about this situation by his racing engineer?

N. Machiavelli

"Everybody assumes Webber would have won the race in front of Vettel and Hamilton, but maybe his speed/fuel situation meant that he was bound to be overtaken by Vettel and/or Hamilton sooner or later?"

The above does not correlate with the lap times recorded in the closing laps of the race. At this juncture it is obvious that Webber's "fuel situation" was a lie fabricated by Red Bull in an effort to circumvent the FIA's prohibition of team orders, such that Red Bull could achieve the finishing order that Red Bull management desired ( Vettel 1, Webber 2 ).


james, i have to say, why has there been no discussion about penalties for the red bull drivers, (at least vettel), if that was lewis or jenson that came up the inside of mark and swiped to the right they would get punished. does the fact it was between two team mates mean there is no sanction?, because it certainly does not mean it was not dangerous racing.

please clear this up for me.



Historically, the FiA has gotten involved in squabbles between team-mates:

I am somewhat surprised by the FiA's total silence on this issue.


Hear hear.

Surely Vettel should at the very least receive an official warning as Vettel jinking to the side seems to be his way as Hamilton said after the race, what's going on James ❓


Let's keep the light touch stewarding if we can, if they get involved it looks like less fairness, more intrigue a la Moseley era


In the heat of the moment the truth comes out - the team politics and preferences are laid bare for all to see in moments like these.

Altering their opinion now is clearly just back pedalling - it won't change what we now know.


i'm appalled at how red bull have handled the whole situation. i was backing vettel and red bull. now im throwing all my support behind webber and mclaren for the rest of the season (webber WDC and mclaren for the constructors)

i will also be buying monster energy drinks instead of red bull.



You are right about the comments on the Red Bull website, they are scathing to say the least with some being really quite strong. I think that to remove them would only further exacerbate the already dire situation.

That said I really do think by producing such a stilted video of Webber and Horner modifying his viewpoint is not much better. I think people would have been more forgiving if Horner had made a fresh statement saying that the comments made by him immediately after the race were made in the heat of the moment and that on reflection he had been wrong to make them. Everyone loves a repentant sinner and surely this would be more palatable than the drivel now being fed to us.


Through all this, my already high opinion of Webber is increasing. He has conducted himself with nothing but utmost professionalism. Like has already been asked by others, where is Vettel's version of happenings and statements. Just who is the team leader here? Through his actions, it looks like Webber is that man.


I agree, Webber is nothing but honest, may not be as good as the champions (Hamilton and Alonso and from what I've seen this year even Button even if he's been very lucky so far) in the field but he's still very good.

Vettel just can't overtake, check out his history ad it's clear for all to see.

The jink he did on Webber was NO different to the jink he did on Hamilton in the pits and had Hamilton not move accordingly there would have been a big incident in the pit lane, Vettel needs talking too0 before we have another avoidable crash as you hearing this FIA Redbull ❓


I cannot believe this. Hamilton was actually driving alongside Vettel through the actual pits themselves and not down the pitlane! It beggars belief that he was not sanctioned for doing something so dangerous, something which could so easily have had fatal consequences for the mechanics of other teams. But then how often have LH's shenanigans been quietly ignored by the authorities? Oh, and by Brit fans.


Yes Vettel should have received at least a three race ban what he did was very dangerous.


Rob I think you are absolutely spot on with this comment.


massa is about to be announced james for 2011.


Mmm... maybe but no byline on the story makes me a bit suspicious


Red Bull's PR people must have been tearing their hair out over this. If Horner and Marko had spoken differently it might well have been a positive story about how they let their boys race. In that context noone would have blinked if they'd added that they would prefer both drivers to leave more space next time.

There is perhaps some irony that we're all reacting because we saw more or less honest reactions from key figures in the team.

And that, if anything, is what we should expect RB to learn from this, especially if their PR team is good. Less honesty, better managed spin next time.


Such has been the backlash that Red Bull cannot afford another PR disaster and this can only be postive for Webber (at least this season). A 15 point cushion over an impetious and under-pressure team-mate, the backing of the rest of the paddock and all the fans; Red Bull may bend over backwards to prove that they are fair to both drivers. Let's not forget that Webber before his bike accident last season was the guy who effectively ended the F1 careers of plenty of drivers (Pizzonia, Wilson, Coulthard). His qualifying pace has been exceptional over the years and this season he seems to have recaptured that form.

I can't say I was ever a fan of his but like a lot of fans over the last couple of days, I really hope he continues to have the edge over Vettel and challenge for the WDC until the end of the season.


as an aussie who deals with many different nationals. We do change the accent to try and make ourselves clearer. I've even had Americans struggle with the accent.

But lets not forget Mark contract up and he has always been the team player. Never once did he have a go at williams or jaguar when he was driving for them.

His leg and shoulder took much longer to heal then he let on last year.Now fully fit his given it a red hot crack.

Why have we not heard from Vettel?


I hope that Red Bull keep favouring Vettel. As all it will do is help Mark. Mark has had his back against the wall for years now, that what he knows. This is great for Webber as he's not the man to feel comfortable. We have all seen pissed off Germans before and it ain't pretty or very tidy. But its been a generation since we have seen a pissed off Australian. So its awesome times ahead if your a Mark Webber fan or a fan of the hard road. He has all the motivation he needs now to destroy another so called future champion. Go Webber Go.


I lost a lot of respect for Vettel's behaviour after this incident. His childish gesture as he walked away from the car demonstrated for the world that he has some maturing to do. I think Webber demonstrated a lot more composure. Redbull should consider the value of experience and maturity before they leap to the young'uns defence.


The first stories I read after the race were to do with RBR siding with Seb and coddling him with hugs when he came back in. The hugs are implicit, the comments from team bosses explicit. No team in any sport rounds on a team member...good teams close ranks. The fact that RBR didn't suggests that, if they weren't favouring SV before, they will now. Which sucks, because Mark's driving out of his skin and is finally getting the results he deserves. If this turns into a Prost/Senna etc. neither of them will win the championship.

It doesn't matter what Horner and Marko say now, they've already shown their hand.


i may be in the minority, but i do actually think that webber closed the door too early on him. i believe it was his fault, if fault needs to be assigned. a shame though, either way.


Look at the imageshack composite and see if you still think that afterwards -


Wicked. Thanks for the articles and also for thanks for taking the time to read the posts. It ads so much depth to them. Its funny i live in a little town in Alberta. I can't even get an F1 racing mag here. So Im stoked as a huge F1/Webber fan that i can still get my F1 fix between races on your site. Thank you


You are very welcome. I love it too, so it's all good


Well Christian Horner's latest comments reveal a great deal about

what really happened.

This is nothing to do with the on track incident and everything

to do with the behind the scenes management.

After 40 laps of Mark Webber holding off the McLaren's and

leading, we find that fuel consumption was becoming a concern.

RBR didn't believe that Mark was going to win the GP. So they

instigated team orders to move Vettel ahead, believing this

was their best chance at victory. Was this really true though,

how do we know that Webber wasn't going to continue to hold

off Hamilton until the end.

Now the only problem with this is that they appeared to have

failed to appreciate the full consequences.

In effect they were asking Webber to relinquish his lead and allow

Vettel to once again look like the better driver. They were also asking

Webber to sacrifice his lead in the championship.

Coming into mid season, Vettel would be leading, and Mark would

probably have to concede to Vettel in more and more races. This

would effectively make Webber the Number 2 driver at RBR.

It is clear that RBR do not believe Webber is capable of winning

the championship. Whether this is true or not is open to debate.

Webber has been in F1 a long time and has never really shown

us exceptional skill or demonstrated he is anything special.

He has never had the car nor the team support, Williams blamed

him for their poor performances, RBR don't support him. He has

had to fight hard for everything he has. He never quit, he never

gave up on his dream. He wasn't about to do it on lap 40.

Perhaps RBR could throw their support behind him and actually

help him to realise his and their dream of a WDC. He might surprise

them. He has been surprising them the last few races.

Vettel might have more raw speed, but does he have the race craft

and the experience to lead RBR to a WDC this year?

So who really is the better option this season, Vettel or Webber?


It's not about who's the better option, it's about who's the future :P.

They weren't even thinking about the championship when they told Webber to move over, they knew they would win the race, it's just a matter who should win. I'm of the opinion that you should only throw your support behind one driver 4/5 race before the last race and when the championship is tight. What RBR showed in Turkey is simply favouritism.


That is a really good point. It's still early days, but we've seen it before with other teams. I'm not saying that they feel that way about Webber necessarily. I think that there is a Vettel faction in the team and that this incident has been used to blow that up


Interesting image of the crash that someone from the Autosport forums put together.

We need to go easy on Dr Helmut Marko, for all we know he may have to glass eyes now which might explain his take on who was to blame for the crash. Sensitivity guys....please.


The relative performance of the two Red Bull drivers in the next few races is going to be very interesting to watch.

Has Mark's ascendancy in practice of late been a fluke due Seb's car having various faults? If that was the case, will Vettel show the kind of superiority over Webber that we saw last season? Or has Webber's recent improved showing proved that he is the equal of his team mate?

And if Vettel does better Webber, will there be a single Brit fan who doesn't put it down to race fixing by the team?


Look at how much dust is coming from Vettel's car. Shows how dirty the dirty side was. Webber made him go around the hard way, but the lines show the trajectories well. That's really good, thanks for posting it


It was also pretty clear from Junor's in-car footage as well, if you simply measured that distance from his car to the white line that these pictures point up. And RBR must have seen that.

Actually, Mark didn't make Junior take that line - he could have gone around the outside, as Jenson did - twice - when he got Schumi and Lewis. But then Jenson is a better passer than Junior.


Well if the final nail was ever needed this is it, really great post clearly shows that Webber left more than enough room.

James maybe you could draw this to attention of Vettel. Horner and that Marko chap (whoever he is).


Go to YouTube and check our Monaco race celebrations. Vettel couldn't even push Webber into the pool. I don't think Mark is afraid of him. Montreal will be interesting but I can see Vettel cracking again under the pressure. RBR have done Vettel a huge disservice by suggesting he did no wrong. It's turned everyone against Vettel and they may never warm to him again. The sport doesn't want or need another Schuey. MW could be the man!!


Mark Webber choses his words very carefully in this interview. His words are very measured and, yes, contrite. It's like he's been given a dressing down and is trying to save is drive for next year (which is preposterous - it should be RBR trying to retain MW if anything)? His performance is very different to the interviews he gives to the Australian media - where he appears very confident and at ease. I really feel for Webber, having to be put in this situation. Where is Vettel? Why isn't he giving interviews and explaining the ridiculous gestures he made as he left his car after the accident. I also think the performance he put on for the cameras when he returned to the pitlane after the accident, in which he appears to be 'apologising' to the team, was particularly calculated and cynical. MW has shown himself to be the senior member of the team while Vettel has a lot to learn - both on and off the track.


I am finding it fascinating that fuel strategy is becoming a variable as important (if not more) than tires. I certainly did not realize how big of a variable it would be when the season started.

We mused at the beginning of the year about the possibility of a team short-fueling their cars at a safety car-prone track in the hopes that an SC period would allow enough fuel savings to make it to the finish. I always thought that this would be a team lower down the grid as others would not risk the embarrassment of a car running out of fuel before the end. The we made fun of Virgin for having a tank too small and therefore having to save fuel during the race to make it to the end.

Never did I think that teams would be cutting it so close that their fuel situations would be 'critical' during a race. Both Red Bull's and Mclaren's problems in Turkey were generated by cutting such a fine line on fuel. The teams have no choice as each kilogram of fuel makes a huge difference in track time. While it is fascinating from a viewer point of view, it must be an annoying variable for the teams to comprehend. Last Sunday, both Redbull (definitely) and Mclaren (to some extent) had a lead driver having to conserve fuel while the second driver could race with a richer mix due to previous fuel savings (in Mclaren's case it was more about the interpretation of 'save fuel.'

What should a team do? Consider this issue the same as a tire issue and let the drivers fight it out if one driver has indeed done a better job of conserving fuel earlier in the race? Tell one driver to use less fuel while allowing the other to use a different amount? If the lead driver has to conserve, make the following drive also lower the fuel mixture to match speed?

Seems like it is a tricky situation for the teams and drivers and I have no doubt that this will cause more consternation in the future. A driver in the lead is unable to draft and if others are very close behind, he might be forces to use more fuel early in the race. Before the end, others behind (who might happen to be teammates) can then use a richer mix than the lead driver.

This new fuel variable is definitely helping to make up for the lack of a pit fuel strategy and I cannot wait for it to help produce more controversy this season (just as long as that team is not Mclaren, fingers crossed).


What are the figures behind under-fuelling, and what kind of advantage could be gained from it?

I recall the rules of thumb being: A lap of fuel weighs around 2.5kg, and costs around one-tenth of a second on the lap time.

If you underfuelled by 5 laps, you'd gain by having a car that was 0.5s faster in the first N laps, but you'd suffer by having a car that was comparatively slower at the end of the race. But is it feasible to recover 12.5kg of fuel in the last 15-20 laps or so? Can you get consumption down to around 1.8kg/lap and still drive at a speed that you can hold off the competition?

The 2010 rules, including the tyres, fuel and aero all seem to combine to mean that you have to try to conserve all your resources to make perhaps a single concerted effort late in the race. If you've kept tyres intact, and kept an extra lap's worth of fuel, surely you deserve to make use of it and try to pass when your competitor, even if a temamate, has to turn his engine down.

Of course, if you're the one in front, and suspect that the car behind has a fuel advantage, you might be doing things to fool him into using his fuel wastefully, and failing to make any passing moves stick.

It all goes to prove that there is still a dynamic fuel strategy going on - it just isn't as obvious as when refueling was allowed!


Maybe Vettel's waiting to do a 'Fergie' and make his apology on 'Oprah'?


The bigger issue in my mind - and one for which the accident has become a smoke screen - is that with around 20 laps yet to run, the leading four cars in the race were on fuel management strategies that precluded them from actually racing to the full extent of their abilities.

Another by-product of the refuelling ban, and annoying to oonsider that were it not for the accident, we would likely have had a procession for the remainder of the race as all concerned managed their fuel consumption rather than trying to get past the guy in front. I'm sure glad I wasn't paying to see the "race".


Except that they weren't, were they? Vettel was faster. It's exciting to think that a driver can find a potentially thrilling advantage for a lap or so which could make a late race overtake possible. THe turbo days were like this and many said that was the best time ever


James, you may know the layout of the RBR steering wheel.. What do you think Vettel changes on lap 40 between corner 7-8..?? You can see on the on board footage.


It's not a real race though, Webber was told to rev down and expected to let Vettel pass him. Is that how the turbo era was like? I'm kinda disappointed, it's all about save the tires, save fuel, save the engine. with pitstop strategy, at least you have 15 or so laps when man and machine are at its maximum.


New where is Vettels video to apologise?


What I want to know is who on earth in their right mind sets up a structure where the team principal does not have control over what someone in the driver training system says??

Red bull need to sort out their management structure, you can't have someone meddling in team matters.

Horner needs to put his foot down on this. I don't see how he can do his job if he's got Marko meddling in this.


When will we hear from Vettel? Mark seems to be the one that has to act like a man and front up, while Vettel, the spoilt child who has always had everything handed to him on a plate, gets to sulk away behind closed doors. Let your results keep doing the talking Mark. You have Vettel rattled and it's obvious from his action in Turkey that he doesn't respond well to pressure.


From Vettel's website, dated Sunday, May 30:

"Ich habe keinen Fehler gemacht. Ich war viel schneller als Mark."

Or: "I did not make a mistake. I was much faster than Mark was."

Probably released at the heat of the moment. Interesting that RBR did not post it in their F1 site; they usually feature all of Vettel's race weekend diary entries. Vettel's German website also won't automatically translate this particular entry to English as it does for other stories. Damage control, I'm guessing.

The only way for him to redeem himself is to issue a public apology, and win races convincingly—with well-executed overtakes, I should add. I'm disappointed with him, but not about to write him off just yet. People have done stupider things at 22, after all, though not always in front of cameras.


“I did not make a mistake. I was much faster than Mark was.”

Because the team told Mark to de-tune his engine..


Yes, very poor show Vettel, stop crying and accept that it was your own doing and do something Schumacher never could. i.e. say sorry ❗


Webber is a classy guy. He's got my vote.

Vettel needs some maturing. It's something that comes with age and experience.

The rest of the team need to sort out their communication strategy.


G'day James, if you have the chance have a look @ this autosport link that Christian did with Italian Gazzetta dello Sport 3 days before Turkey, & ask him 1) does he still stand by his comments, 2)now that Mark has a 15 point lead over Vettel, do you think Mark has a chance @ the title. His comments only seem to fuel the speculation that RBR favour Vettel over Webber!..


I read the article a few days ago also. I understand that Horner means that their candidate for the WDC is Vettel and, despite being very fast, Webber is no more than a tool to make Vettel work harder. However, extracts of an interview can sometimes transmit the wrong message. Disappointing nonetheless.


Love how they're doing the whole "win as a team, lose as a team" spiel - shame those words hold very little water having already played the blame game with Webber. Unfortunate they didn't practice what they preached then they blamed Mark on Sunday.

Stuart Fenton

Vettels biggest down fall so far this season and potentially more so in the future is his disgust at loosing. It blocks his judgement, he get's impatient. Mark can cope with a bad result and make the best out of it


Cristian Horner's comment to the question...

Were there any team orders given for Sebastian to pass Mark? :

Neither driver was given any instruction to change position. There are no team orders within Red Bull Racing, other than that the drivers should race each other with respect.

I think Vettel was right to try to pass.

I think Mark was right to defend in a respectful way.

Vettel moved offline during his overtake.

It was just a bad overtake IMHO.

Why RBR can't see this and acknowledge it, stinks of favouritism towards vettel.

Nett Result:

Mark Webber.. Still going up in my estimations.

RBR.. Looking a bit amateurish.

Vettel.. Usual behaviour from this type of racer.. I don't have too much problem with that.

CH.. Losing my respect.

I think Mark has now become the driver everyone wants to win. Rather than RBR being the team anyone wants to win.

Good Luck!


I really want to see mark win now, even as a jb and lewis fan. What price

Red bulls antics are beyond belief and I hope to see mark at Renault next season (I think kubica will go to Ferrari).


Some of the Upsides in all this

Webber Comes out looking like a Fast Mother Teresa

A lot more people are starting to see that Vettel is a bit of a flog

The F1 world will be right on the axis of evil(Horner/Marko) if they try to pull any more shenanigans against Mark

I found a cool F1 blog where people share semi intelligent opinions on all things F1

I almost feel like thanking the RBR Managment 🙂


Perhaps it is time to consider preventing the teams managing their drivers' fuel consumption because it has become obvious now that this facility can be (and is) misused in order to fix the race result to the liking of the powers that be. I am thinking of the particularly blatant example recently when one driver was told to save fuel for almost the whole race in contrast to his team mate who wasn't. If team orders are not allowable then surely this type of potential race fixing using the intercom should be investigated now.

My thinking is that the car's computer display could show the driver the estimated number of laps left at current fuel usage, if fuel consumption is actually a limiting factor, although obviously other measures could be used as well. Drivers would also logically need to have a say in the amount of fuel on board to begin with.


Webber can no longer take the word of the team as gospel any more when asked to change the dynamics of the cars performance if his team mate is behind him.

The TRUST is now gone, whether or not he is the quicker driver.

On the flip side if Webber is behind Vettel by say 5 seconds and gaining 0.5 a lap they could tell him you only have little fuel so conserve (as the competition is way behind) so as to not threaten Vettels lead even if he is fueled at that setting till the end of the race.

The TRUST is gone between driver and team.


The only one who's really done anything wrong is Marko. It's 100% his fault that this rubbish has blown up in everyones face.

I think both drivers will acknowledge they could have acted differently and prevented the incident (whatever % you want to aportion to each of them is up to you, but there needs to be some blame either way).

And if it had been left at that, with CH rightly putting the blame with both of them, then we all may have moved on by now.

But with Marko constantly running off, giving his own views on it - it's basically ruining any of the good PR that Horner and Mark have come out with in the last few days.

The one who has suffered from this most is Sebastian, which is unfortunate - as the only thing he did wrong was his % of the accident on Sunday. Sure the reaction out of the car was wrong, but it's not like we haven't seen motorsport drivers do that before.

I'm a Seb fan, and I've enjoyed the absolute pleausure of meeting him - and he was honestly the nicest person I've ever met, and the personal rubbish that has been directed at him following this has been nothing short of scandalous, and disgusting.

His mistake was on the racetrack, he shouldn't be copping it for what Marko is banging on about.


Why haven't we heard anything from Vettel since Sunday?


Because he IS in the wrong (even though he was following team instructions - which is why he thinks he's right), and anything less than a public apology is not acceptable to the fans - so better kept silent.



Will the F1A investigate this incident?? From a stand point of driving standard, should the causer of the accident be punished for their actions on the track??If it were Vettel taking out a Mclaren or Ferrari I'm sure there would have been a penalty....Why no penalty or investigation into this incident?? Cheers


No sign of that yet

Steve of Cornubia

I am very disappointed in Red Bull's treatment of Webber, and my dismay continued today when I read that Kimi Raikonnen might be considered as an RBR seat next year, replacing Webber.

If this is true, I'm guessing this is a shot across Webber's bows and another example of poor Mark's mistreatment.

Webber deserves a clear shot at the title in what could be his last year.


I've read most of the comments and what a great blog site..!

My question is (and has been asked but only opinions have answered), if this occurred between two opposing teams would this have been referred to the stewards for investigation ?


Well it is surprising that the stewards didn't speak to the drivers. That was the definition of an 'avoidable' accident - all parties have said as much!


Was a gun put to his head to make this video just after racing a formula 1 race?

Maybe RBR will just let him drive for the rest of the year and even support him to win the WDC and let him have his year while then making sure Vettel has it all his own way next year. This would be the best way for them to keep their brand name in tack which is the important thing for Reb Bull at the end of the day.

One things for sure, the sooner they get rid of marko then the better everyone at Redb Bull will be.


Assuming SV had managed to save 1 kg of fuel as per CH's statement and that a typical consumption at a high speed circuit like Turkey is 2.5 kg then the available window to use the additional power was slightly more than 1/3 rd of one lap.

Strange that it coincided with the instruction to or action by Webber to reduce the power of his engine.

it smacks of preferential treatment.

Given that SV ran in clear air for the stint up until the 1 st stop then he is unlikely to have been using less fuel. When was it that he was able to save the kg of fuel mentioned.

How is it that the MW pit stop for four tyres was able to take 6-7 secs stopped time as against a best practice of 3.5 - 4 seconds?

If he was a further 3.5 seconds up the road would the fuel issue have arisen at all?


From Mark Webbers Twitter Feed (AussieGrit):

Bloody hell guys, thank you for your support, sport can be amazing sometimes, huh, that is why we love it! Head down for Canada


Over 2000 posts on Red Bull(ies) web site.Better than 90% critical of Vettel, Horner and Marko.

There is some censorship going on tho as I posted a copy of an email I sent to the FAI and CAMS here in Oz and it didn't get a guernsey. Wonder why. Could be the suggestion that the FAI and Todt needed to address the suggestion of race fixing.


I challenge anyone to show me a link to all Princess Sebby's (successful) overtakes... Ah! I didn't think so! He has a l-o-n-g way to go before he can call himself a racer. Right now he's merely a speedster.


I challenge ANYONE to show me a link to Princess Sebby's (successful) overtakes - from this or ANY other formula!

Tick tock... Ah! I didn't think so!

(S)He has a long way to grow before moving from mere 'speedster' to true 'Racer'!

Good on Webber; next time Seb will be more circumspect around him. Maybe he should watch Hamilton's overtake reels to learn how it's done! 😀


Vettel was in front of Webber so webber is in fault of an accident. (test for webpage)

Steve of Cornubia

Actually, he wasn't 'in front'. By definition, if he was in front, hecould have swerved to the right without hitting Webber. The fact that he DID hit Webber proves that he was only ALONGSIDE.

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