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Will FIA review Vettel championship result in light of video evidence?
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Posted By: James Allen  |  29 Nov 2012   |  12:27 am GMT  |  515 comments

[Updated] For the past few days there has been some debate – on this site and others – as to whether the FIA should review the result of the Brazilian Grand Prix and with it the world championship, as there is video evidence suggesting that Sebastian Vettel made a pass under yellow flags three laps into the race.

An on-board video clip presented on one of the Sky subscription channels and reposted on You Tube by a fan, shows Vettel passing Jean-Eric Vergne on the Reta Oposta straight before Turn 4, while yellow lights are still visible on his dashboard and he had recently passed a yellow light on the outside of the straight.

There have been extensive analyses of the video and on the face of it, it looks pretty clear cut.

It all happens very quickly and through a camera lens which is spotted with rain.

However, it’s not quite as clear as it appears to be.

An examination of the on-board video in slow motion, shows that Vettel passes a flag marshal’s post-tower on the left before he passes Vergne and a marshal can be seen on the tower, waving a green flag, meaning that the danger zone is ended.

So there appears to be some confusion over signalling; the lights and the flag do not synchronise.

In this case the first signal is the important one; the green flag tells the driver that the yellow flag zone is ended, even though the yellow warning lights are still visible on the dashboard.

This flag is what Vettel would have acted on and for that reason, it is very unlikely that this will be re-opened.

If the FIA were to decide to re-open the case – and they could without Ferrari or anyone else being required to protest – this confusion over signalling (flags versus lights) might form the basis of Red Bull’s defence, along with a telemetry throttle analysis which would probably show that Vergne backed off on the straight, as he certainly appears to do, which causes Vettel to pass.

It is important to clarify the protocol, because the FIA Sporting Code calls for the Race Stewards to re-open any matter arising in the race if new evidence comes to light. In this case, were they to find beyond doubt that Vettel had made a pass under yellows, he would have 20 seconds added to his race time and that would cost him positions and ultimately the world championship.

Had it been judged an offence at the time and he had been given a drive through penalty, this would have occurred before the Safety Car, so his 20 seconds penalty and resulting lost places would be academic. But as that did not happen, all the stewards would be able to do would be to retrospectively, is to add the time penalty.

As several days have elapsed since the race, this would generate headlines around the world and would reflect very badly on the FIA’s policing of F1. I sense that there is nothing here, as the green flag stands, as the first signal.

Ferrari are known to have studied it carefully, but not approached the FIA on it.

The FIA obviously will be looking at it internally. The deadline for opening up the case is November 30th, but my sense is that nothing will happen.


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515 Comments
  1. Lee says:

    Ferrari International Assistance could still be pivotal!

    1. **Paul** says:

      On Kobi: Pass made when the static yellow slippery track light was on. LEGAL.
      On Vergne: Pass made after a marshalls waved green flag. LEGAL.

      The FIA have a system in place which automatically flags overtakes made in yellow flag zones, this is so they can immediately review and punish the offence.

      This whole story is a nothing.

      As Tiff Needle mentioned also; there no mention of Alonso out braking himself during a yellow flag zone? Yellow flags mean slow down, not go so hot into a corner you outbrake yourself. One could argue that ignoring yellow flags by not slowing is the same penalty for overtaking under yellows. In this instance Alonso is the one who got away with something, not Vettel!

      Desperation from Ferrari?; what a shame a great marque has to stoop to such levels. I’ll still be a fan of Alonso, but my love for Ferrari is strained at present.

      1. Ben says:

        Italian press are reporting that this is Alonso putting pressure on Ferrari and not Ferrari looking to appeal. Actually could cause a problem in their relationship.

      2. Mr. Whoopsie says:

        Ferrari actually haven’t said anything or pursued anything regarding this.

        (yet)

      3. **Paul** says:

        Various reports suggest that Ferrari have written to the FIA to seek clairifcation. Bens post above re: Alonso pushing it is interesting, I hope that’s not the case, but Fernando must be pretty miffed at keeping missing out on titles in the final race of the season. Is that two at Ferrari and one at McLaren when he’s being in the mix to win the title and not won? I think it would be out of character should Alonso want the title in this fashion.

      4. Lindsay says:

        Desperation? They haven’t even done anything yet, give them a chance to hang themselves before you start throwing stones. :)

      5. Yak says:

        That’s an interesting point I hadn’t noticed at the time, where going into turn 1 on lap 5 you can very clearly see a flashing yellow light before the corner, and yet Alonso massively out-brakes himself to the point where he runs way off the track. Haven’t we seen others investigated this year for not slowing under yellows? I suppose it’s possible he lifted, which meant his braking point changed and he misjudged it. But surely a look at the telemetry would swiftly sort out whether or not it was anything along those lines, or if he was just pushing too hard and lost it.

      6. W Johnson says:

        Fully agree. I hope this does not become another F1 disaster story like Spa 2008….which it will if they retrospectively change the result months later!

    2. CarlH says:

      If they were absolutely set on helping Ferrari they could have easily given Vettel a penalty for turning in on Senna.

      I guarantee that if the roles had been reversed in that incident Senna would have got a drive-through.

      1. AfterLife says:

        Well said +1

      2. Steve Rogers says:

        I agree it was Vettel’s fault.

      3. Michael Spitale says:

        Actually they gave Hulkenburg a bogus penalty to get Alonso up further…. That would never be called on anyone in a normal race.

        Alonso got a safety car when about to be lapped, a drive through for Hulkenburg, and Massa had to move over 2 times in one race. Plus his enemy was dead last after lap one. The 2 leaders crashed moving him to the podium. Not sure Ferrari could have asked for more to go their way, but then again they tried anyway.

      4. KRB says:

        It was a penalty for Hulkenberg … he had to have known that the car would be hard to control in that area of track (damp area), and going late on the brakes. We want people to race, true, but to race intelligently, and not ruin others’ races.

      1. Rob Newman says:

        Classic!

    3. Trevor Murphy says:

      It would have served them right to have been punished for this

      The way Vergne jumped out of the way was just rediculous.

      To hear Christian Horner talk about ‘dirty tricks’ and then to see this..

      Are there ANY truly sporting teams in this sport?

      I become more of a McLaren fan every year just because they seem to be the most consistent team in allowing their drivers to race each other.

  2. Tom says:

    I’m an Alonso fan but I wouldn’t want him to become Champion like this.

    I’ve looked at the video and watched the race back on iplayer. Lap 3 there is a green flag being waved, lap 4 (in question) isn’t shown but lap 5 is clear of flags. Since no other incidents took place it seems very unlikely that a yellow flag came out for lap 4 alone.

    One more thing James, if the FIA want to analyse Vettel, what about the other drivers? I’m sure plenty of yellow overtakes and other transgressions were missed in such a crazy race.

    1. Haydn Lowe says:

      Yes, it reminds me of McLaren protesting the Ferrari barge boards in ’99 – a particularly tasteless (and ultimately uneccessary) attempt to win that year’s championship. Ferrari should stay classy and annihilate Red Bull on the track next season. That’s the only way to win in my opinion.

      1. Stephen Taylor says:

        They still won the drivers that year!

      2. sc0tty39 says:

        Sorry @Haydn Lowe, you can’t compare these two points.

        1. The Vettel incident is a “racing” incident that took place on track.

        2. The ’99 Ferrari barge board scandel was a blatant bending of the regulations (or cheating if you prefer) by Ferrari to gain a performance advantage with illegal bodywork. Their excuse for the “discrepancy” was that the manufacturing tolerance was wrong due to an error with their machine that checks parts. A total crock – which was accepted by the FIA!

        It was known in the paddock for several races before the protest (by McLaren and Williams at least) that Ferrari were cheating, but the protest was kept back until a critical race in the championship when Ferrari scored a 1-2.

        Nuff said…

      3. Andrew M says:

        That’s not how it happened at all. Ferrari were disqualified from the Malaysia race by the stewards after the bargeboard was found to be “illegal” in post-race scrutineering. Ferrari appealed and they were reinstated. McLaren had nothing to do with it.

      4. Tom Culligan says:

        Agreed. I’m a big Alonso fan but I certainly wouldn’t want him to win like this. Use this to get some clarification on the rules but don’t try to change the outcome of the race.

        As Haydn says, beat Red Bull on the track next season.

  3. NoFumbles says:

    It was yellow when he passed Kobayashi, but right after he finished the move, Kamui went for a pit stop, so Vettel couldn’t gave back that position. He would’ve gotten it either way after KK left the track.

    1. Jason C says:

      No, this one isn’t true – the yellow has cleared, and it’s a red and yellow (slippery surface) flag / light here.

      On the footage you’re talking about, you can see that Vettel goes past 2 yellow flashing lights behind Kobayashi, but only passes under solid yellow lights. I don’t know what colour these solid lights are, but on camera they look solid yellow.

      Also, when a driver is passed under yellow and then pits / stops, the passing driver has still been penalised. Instead of giving the place back like they would usually do, they have received a drive-through. I can’t give you a specific incident of this, but I remember this happening before. Perhaps someone else can recall a specific case.

      1. simon mawdsley says:

        Button on Massa, silverstone last year?

    2. **Paul** says:

      STATIC yellow though, which is different to flashing yellow.

      Static meaning ‘slippery track’ which you are entitled to pass under.

      This has proven to be entirely legal.

  4. Andrew M says:

    Assuming both are genuine, there surely is enough contradictory evidence for Red Bull to mount a successful defence, even before taking into account the FIA’s reluctance to interfere in any race result, especially one that would interfere in the outcome of the world title.

    1. Msta says:

      Agree, there’s nothing in it other than confusion. The FIA needs to clean up the system so everyone is clear on the flag regulations.

      I’m more concerned about the inconsistent rulings around racing incidents. Why was Hulkenberg given a drive through penalty for taking out Hamilton when Vettel’s lap 1 mistake took out Senna and Perez and he was not penalized. It also makes Grosjean’s 1 race ban look rather harsh in comparison.

      1. Mad Kiwi says:

        Absolutely I agree.

    2. Lindsay says:

      Bring back Balestre!

      1. Andrew M says:

        Haha, he’d somehow find a way to have Grosjean declared champion :)

  5. [MISTER] says:

    It would be a shame if the evidence would show Vettel in the wrong.
    I’m no Vettel fan, but maybe it should be left as it is. All in all, it seems it was a very poor job by the FIA and the Brasilian marshals.
    This situation and the one with the yellow and red stripe flag…come on, make it clearer so this kind of situations don’t arise.

    You would think when they position those yellow light, they would put them at the begining of the straight where that marshall is, and not mid-way.

    1. James M says:

      I think anyone connected with formula 1 knew it was a legal overtake due to their knowledge of the lighting system. It was alan mcnish who wrongly started that hoopla by failing to make the distinction between the lights during his sky sports analysis (something I consider very poor given i, and I’m sure many other viwers spotted it immediately; he even points out the green flag zone for goodness sake). And from there it gathered amazing steam on the forums due to embittered alonso fans.

      As for the new controversy, i think james sums it up well.

  6. F1FanDownUnder says:

    That’s what I like about F1 James, scandals are never far away! I am inclined to believe that Vettel should keep his Championship, but seeing that there is nothing else going on in F1 at the moment, one mind hopes this scandal continues a little longer. We will be waiting for updates James.
    On a side note, thanks for the great website and commentary on Five Live. I listen to it while watching Sky Sport feed on Channel Ten here – especially at ad breaks when most of the actions seems to take place.

    1. James Allen says:

      Good decision – best of both worlds!

    2. Msta says:

      How do you get the five live feed? I can’t get around the ‘international rights restrictions’

      1. tom in adelaide says:

        Same boat for me. I guess maybe a proxy?

      2. Steve says:

        I second the, I’d love to get the Five Live feed over in Australia.

      3. Adeel says:

        there are plenty of websites showing live stream of Sky F1 HD with very good quality and no buffering. Even though I live in Qatar, I was able to watch all the races online on Sky through these sites and had a wonderful time!!! This included pre and post race shows
        the main difference with streaming with BBC feed was that it lagged to much, so i was glad with the switch to Sky!!!

  7. F1ART says:

    Seems clear cut, there is a green flag from the marshals post and the flags are the official way of communicating on track orders. Everything else is to assist the driver in making it clearer, which in this case is shown green at the next light post after the flag.
    The driver has to wait for a flag not a light!

  8. [MISTER] says:

    To answer your question James, yes they will investigate it, but no action will be taken.

    On top of the fact that will probably be the first time in history when the result of a championship winner is going to be changed, it will look very very bad on the FIA and the stewards in change.

    1. James Allen says:

      I believe that they will not investigate, in the sense of publicly re-opening it

      1. Morten says:

        If it will look bad is in the eye of the beholder. It will look bad to most, but that’s only because it such a passionate sport. The majority of fans and followers would cry outrage.

        But let’s compare to, say, a pole-vaulter who wins the olympic gold. It then turns out he’s been using an illegal kind of pole. He is disqualified and nr. 2 becomes nr. 1. That will look bad, but not to many – it’s not that big of a sport.

        I believe they will investigate and publicly declare a new or unchanged champion result. I think they must, to affirm their status as caretakers of the sport or risk reputation damage as “the FIA saw the potential wrong but did not even _try_ to right it”. New leadership and all. Let’s see what happens.

        Personally, I hope no action will be taken; the difference in position of green flag vs. light should provide reasonable doubt in favor of the driver.

      2. Lewis says:

        Kudos to Mister for the comment. I know he is no fan of Vettel but nice to know that he is a reasonable man.

        James, if the FIA were not to reopen it or just provide a statement that “No further action will be taken”, I dont think that will do.

        Like it or not, this story has kicked up a media storm and this situation is not the easiest to understand if you dont know the rules about flags and floppy markers.

        I would like to see the FIA make a clear detailed statement and Ferrari to confirm that they are satisfied with the investigation (if they are satisfied of course). Otherwise, this title may seem tainted to some (just read some of the comments on this blog and you will know what I am talking about).

      3. Anne says:

        Good morning James. I saw it now. It took me 4 times until I saw it somewhat clear. The tower is clearly there but it seems to me that the marshall was not waving the flag all the time as we usually see during any race. As Vettel is approaching the tower then the marshall seems to show up and he only makes one move with the flag.And then the marshall backs off. So I guess the marshall is making a mistake. He has to be waving the flag all the time until the last car passes by his tower.

      4. James Allen says:

        No, it’s very clear. He is waving a green flag, the danger zone ends there, the pass is legal

      5. Stephen Hicks says:

        What about the fact that Vettel is clearly flat out and uses KERS to line up Vergne for the pass? This is definitely in the yellow zone and I remember penalties for drivers using DRS in yellow zones earlier in the year.. Would be a pretty petty argument from Ferrari but not completely far fetched?!

      6. Adam says:

        And that is exactly why the FIA needs to act publically and say why the pass is legal, give Ferrari the clarification it seeks and ensure uninformed Alonso fans don’t claim Vettle one by less than sporting means.

      7. Knuckles says:

        I agree that the flag thing will not (and rightly should not) change the outcome. What they should investigate though is that the Toro Rossos back off every time an RBR is in their mirros, which Vergne did in the flag situation as well, like you wrote in the article.

      8. Randy Torres says:

        Yes, but wouldn’t that particular conspiracy theory be offset by the fact that STR is a Ferrari client?

      9. Knuckles says:

        @Randy, cannot reply to your post because of thread depth limit.

        I don’t see a conspiracy theory, if was very clear to see that TR let RBR through every time they could, and we have 2011′s Alguersuari quotes about what Marko told him as well.

        And TR is switching to Renault anyway (which makes sense for their 4 car team, of course)

    2. Andrew M says:

      1989 was changed when Senna was disqualified from Suzuka after winning the race (and it did reflect badly on the FIA, although for reasons of national bias as opposed to incompetence).

      1. [MISTER] says:

        Thanks for this Andrew. I’ll look into it as I never thought it happened before.
        Cheers!

      2. Andrew M says:

        On reflection, it’s not an exact copy as it didn’t change the world champion from Senna to Prost, it merely ruled Senna out of the title race. This would be the first time the season ended and the title was taken from one driver and awarded to another.

      3. Rishi says:

        I don’t think 1989 was a case of one guy being crowned and then being forced to give it back. Senna needed to win Suzuka to keep his championship hopes alive; the disqualification handed Prost the title, but had it not happened I think Senna would have still needed to outpoint Prost in the final round in Adelaide to win the title.

      4. JimmiC says:

        That was changed swiftly though, before either Prost or Senna had stepped on the podium.

        Personally, IF Vettel had been found guilty nearly a week late then a punishment for next seasons opening races would’ve been appropriate – maybe starting on minus points.

      5. KRB says:

        It wasn’t changed swiftly, they just delayed the podium ceremony by some ridiculous amount of time. That was an absolute joke, ’89 in Suzuka. Total garage league stuff.

  9. Niner says:

    Well, I can’t say Ferrari’s mulling of whether to protest or not is entirely unexpected. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638)
    They’ve been plenty ready to challenge the legality of every other innovation Red Bull have pulled out of the garage this year.

    The fact remains they were simply unable to challenge them in the development stakes, and their wins (three) are still four behind Red Bull’s seven (Alonso three wins, Vettel five, Webber two).

    Wether or not the FIA decide to investigate Vettel’s pass under yellows/red/green won’t change the on-track advantage Red Bull continued to demonstrate over Ferrari this year, as much as they hoped their political and gearbox-related brinkmanship might win it for them.

    1. [MISTER] says:

      Niner, I want to point out I am a Ferrari man, but why not complain about issues that are not entirely legal, even if it’s only in Ferrari’s view?
      Last year and this year have been plenty of times when RedBull were asked to change things on their cars. This means they were using illegal stuff.
      Let’s not make confusion between “innovation within the rules” and “pushing the rules boundaries”.

      No matter if Ferrari or any other team would match or not the leaders performance, they should be vigilent and not allow their competitors to break the rules.

      1. Niner says:

        Mister,

        I want a level playing field as much as anyone else. And I appreciate that there is a fine line between “innovation within the rules” and “pushing the rules boundaries”.

        But bisecting those two is what every F1 team needs to do: interpret them in an electro-mechanical/aerodynamic manner for twenty different tracks with dynamic variables (tyre degradation/weather/temperature, etc).

        The difficulty of doing this has seen minds as brilliant as Ross Brawn lag behind with no shortage of development funds or driver talent.

        But Ferrari’s decision to sacrifice Massa’s qualifying position by opening his gearbox – while wholly within the rules – is the sort of draconian measure that, in my opinion, undermines the spirit of competition and leads to the sort of championship that’s decided in the boardroom rather than on the racetrack.

        Personally, I’d much rather teams challenge each other with innovation that pushes the boundaries, than have a season of gearbox tampering within the rules that sacrifices great qualifying performances for the sake of being able to start on the clean side of the track.

      2. [MISTER] says:

        If you want a playing field as much as anyone else, then why you complain if Ferrari are reporting RBR for breaking the rules..like flexi wings..or holes in the floors…or engine maping.

        At least don’t complain. RBR can still push the rules, as will everyone I believe, but the others have the right to complain about that.

        Ferrari moved Massa to give Alonso a better chance. RBR took Webber’s front wing to give Vettel a better chance. How is that different?

      3. Niner says:

        Mister, like I state above, the rules need to be adhered to, without question. But the interpretation and implementation is up to each individual team to work out for themselves. “Breaking the rules” is one thing, innovation within and up to the limits of the rules is another, especially when there is a degree of interpretation that requires clarification after the fact. If you remember, Red Bull’s engine mapping was found not to “break” the rules – nevertheless the rules were clarified afterward.

        The issue I have in regard to your example is that the wing Vettel was given from Webber’s car was related to aerodynamic development. At that point in the Championship, Webber trailed Vettel on points by a significant margin. It seems logical that any team will want to confer an advantage to the driver that has the best mathematical chance of moving ahead in the points when the team can provide said driver a better package.

        But Ferrari breaking the FIA seal on Massa’s gearbox had nothing to do with car development. They weren’t taking a new gearbox from Massa and giving it to Alonso, giving Fernando a better performing car, they were simply penalising Felipe for a achieving a superior qualifying position. It had zero to do with development. Not only that, every driver behind Massa that qualified on the clean side of the track now found themselves on the dirty side, penalising them as well.

        Failing to develop a car and resorting to cynically hobbling a team mate who qualifies well is not the same as giving the driver who is ahead on points a piece of aerodynamic kit that enhances the team’s chances of winning both championships. They’re very different.

  10. Jose says:

    I strongly believe that it was a legitimate pass. I’m sure that no driver is so stupid to risk the WDC in a situation as clear as that.

    I think that is right for us the fans “to debate”. Most of us don’t have a clue about panels, lights, flags, marshals… but seen Alonsos’s tweet about the issue make me feel very sad. Really? That was really needed?

    FIA must clear the issue already!

    And the best drivers in the world should learn how to lose.

    Thank you James for your awsome blog. You complete my poor TV retransmissions!

    1. trullifan says:

      ‘but seen Alonsos’s tweet about the issue make me feel very sad.’

      What does it say?

  11. Vettel began his pass after the floppy marker on the left that marks the beginning of the marshal zone where the green flag was out, as defined by the International Sporting Code:

    http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1/forum/topic/youtube-analysis-vettels-yellow-flag-overtakes/?topic_page=1&num=15#post-80878

    A flag marshal I heard from concurred this means the pass is legal:

    http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/groups/f1/forum/topic/youtube-analysis-vettels-yellow-flag-overtakes/?topic_page=5&num=15#post-81011

    1. James Allen says:

      Yes, that’s my understanding.

      The 12min video posted on your site, which concludes that this overtake is “illegal” doesn’t notice or mention the green flag on left

      There’s nothing here

      1. Luke Clements says:

        The Marshall takes precedence, end of story. The only time to take computer over Marshall is in an aircraft..if TCAS says go up or go down, you don’t want to listen to Air Traffic Controller!

      2. Bjornar Simonsen says:

        “There’s nothing here” I disagree, there’s lots of glorious drama for us to enjoy while waiting for the 2013 season! Hehe :)

      3. Fireman says:

        I don’t know, Bjornar. Too much tears for hardcore Ferrari fans. We should get on with 2013 already :)

    2. Lewis says:

      Kudos to Keith Collantine for his coverage on the website. I am left in no doubt at all that there is no way this move can be deemed illegal.

      Despite that, Ferrari are well within their right to appeal in my opinion and they should not be smeared as sore losers etc.

      However, I would rather Ferrari appeal and the FIA explain the verdict in a statement clearly than Ferrari declaring “in the interests of the sport, we will not appeal”, thus casting a shadow on Vettel’s title.

      Dear Ferrari: Please no PR games. If you want to appeal, then do so. This “we are considering it” business is a little naughty (but I dont blame them at all)

      I think the mischief was more from a journo at a well-known corporation who has previously shown where his sympathies lie.

      1. Scott says:

        Agree absolutely with this. They don’t really think that an appeal would be successful, and the real agenda is to create innuendo in an attempt to taint Vettel’s title. That might be morally even worse than what they did to Massa’s gearbox in Austin. In fact I believe the FIA can investigate without a team asking them to as such if new evidence comes to light. In view of the speculation perhaps they should just come out themselves and say definitively that the pass was legal in order to avoid the “in the interests of the sport we will not appeal” angle.

    3. Rishi says:

      +1 with Lewis regarding kudos to Keith Collantine and the coverage on the F1 Fanatic website. However, am a bit confused where the lights go in all this; do they correspond in any way to Marshall Sectors? The yellow flashing light at the beginning of the straight appears to be roughly at the beginning of where Marshall Sector 4 is (on the map); is the floppy marker therefore between the yellow light and the green flag or before both? (I believe the footage from the website has been removed).

      Either way it seems there might be too much uncertainty for there, at this moment, to be a change in championship outcome. I would have felt/would feel deeply uncomfortable in the outcome of the title changing several days after the event, but equally one cannot blame Ferrari for looking into the matter and seeking clarification. A potential deeper question is, if the race stewards have made a mistake, do we treat it as a referee’s mistake in football (no going back on it), or a belatedly discovered failed drugs test in athletics or cycling (penalty still has to be applied ex-post).

  12. Tom S says:

    The picture shown is irrelevent as that is from Lap 3 (see counter at top of image) – the incident in question is Lap 4.

    1. Steve says:

      Well it’s irrelevant in that sense, but that marshal’s post doesn’t disappear in between laps so it was important to determine what he was/wasn’t showing on the lap in question before Vettel starting the pass in that section of track.

  13. Anil says:

    James, don’t you think it could be incredibly damaging for the sport if the incident gets reviewed? I’m glad the sport isn’t like football in that it doesn’t let things go unpunished but at least I can watch match of the day and the results want change tomorrow morning.

    Very strange situation. if the green flag is waved, VET didn’t do anything wrong.

  14. Leonel Pribluda says:

    I believe the yellow flag was intended ONLY for the “Senna S”, during lap 3 and 4 P.Maldonado’s car was being lifted, it seems logic because there was no danger in the back straight, that’s the only reason i can find regarding the marshal waving the green flag to Vettel and the rest…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLNd-jlghZE

  15. Irish con says:

    As I said to u yesterday James for me it is a clear as day that vettel started the move in a yellow zone when u are supposed to lift the throttle and if was spotted during the race would be a penalty. However even as a massive Ferrari fan I don’t want the result altered now even tho it would give my team the championship. Just isn’t the way to win the best prize in sport in my opinion

    1. Steve says:

      Wrong. Green Flag on left is clear to see. Vettel makes his move after the flag. It’s clear as day that the move is legal, you just can’t see it.

      1. Scott says:

        And, although it is difficult to tell exactly, he appears only to begin using KERS after that point.

  16. Owen says:

    What’s better than a bit of controversy to spice up the off season?

  17. JCA says:

    James, wouldn’t a Ferrari chalenge end their hope of signing Vettel in the future, or is he the forgiving type?

    1. Amritraj says:

      Very valid point.

      Also, FIA will not do anything about it for the following reasons:

      A) Bernie will never allow such a thing to happen to Vettel.
      B) Red Bull brings a lot of money to the sport. They may withdraw from F1 after such a decision.
      C) I don’t think this penalty should be applied to Vettel. While I believe Alonso is a better driver and had a better season, Vettel has fought his way to win the championship, and a court decision taking it away is just not fair.

    2. Haydn Lowe says:

      I think that was 100% Ferrari mind games to be honest. There will not be another WDC at Ferrari while Alonso is there, and I can’t imagine that Ferrari have the appetite to buy out another multi-million pound contract as they did with Kimi. They’d be better off spending it on the car…

      1. rey cruz says:

        got it right

  18. Steve Rogers says:

    “But:

    Sky Sports F1 commentator Martin Brundle confirmed that he had spoken to one of this weekend’ four FIA race stewards, Gary Connolly, and been assured that Vettel’s move was completely legal and would not be subject to any sort of post-race investigation or a formal appeal by a rival team such as Ferrari.

    “He has absolutely confirmed that they were red-and-yellow boards,” Brundle said on the live broadcast. However, he added: “Didn’t look much like that from the somewhat grainy and rainy yellow on-board footage, did it?”

    1. Luca says:

      its not he overtake of the Sauber, not of the Torro Rosso – that is not what was discussed on the Sky coverage.

      1. Luca says:

        “but of the Torro Rosso…”

      2. Steve Rogers says:

        Thanks for clearing my confusion :-)

    2. Matt Devenish says:

      That was in relation to the Kobayashi pass

  19. Tim says:

    Oh FFS, if the stewards couldn’t even see it on the day, and the drivers were already racing under difficult conditions, it should just be let go.

    Besides, F1 has two-way telemetry (I refer to both the transponder system used for timing and other systems including the MES systems) – those systems should be used to display, on the dash or wheel, a yellow light.

    At this level of racing if they’re not making use of this, then there’s something wrong – and that should be what’s defining. The technology is there – use it.

    1. Tim says:

      How could I disagree with a name like that (Tim).

      Signed,
      Tim (The Genuine Article)

      1. Peter C says:

        Oh not again ?

  20. Canuck says:

    If a review were to take place, it should have happened during the race. This event was talked about during the broadcast …. surely the stewards were aware of it at the time and took a look. To investigate now, days later, and potentially change the race and championship outcome would be laughable.

  21. FforFerrari says:

    This would be bad for F1 is the ruling was overturned. We all know how Bernie hates any results being overturned. I myself wouldn’t want Fernando to win a WDC like this.

    If this incident didn’t happen, Vergne would have still simply allowed Seb to overtake on another corner anyway. Whether Seb overtook under yellows or not would have made no difference to his race position as he crossed the line. Add the confusion of waved green flags and have something not really worth appealing.

    Come on Ferrari, you know that you should not appeal. Show the world that you are more passionate about racing than about rules.

  22. M.Wishart says:

    Good to see your on the ball with this story James.

    When the race finished on sunday, I dont know why but for some reason I added 20 secs to Vettal time to see how close people where behind him and had a little thought of where he could end up as it was a crazy race.

    Especially with the pass under yellow which sky highlighted, but turned out to be wrong.

    Now this……

    I just have a strong feeling that Vettal is going have the championship taken off him and given to Alonso, which brings up all the talk of who deserved it more over the year and I believe Alonso deserves it more as he dragged that car into places it had no right being in, but to balance this with Vettal he won the most races over the year so from that point of view HE deserves it more. (Remember Bernie medal system!!!)

    Lastly and I have said this before on here but Alonso was so desperate to be a triple before Vettal, that this is his last opportunity to make it happen that he will grab this with both hands and try and take the championship off Vettal given the chance.

    Whether that is right or wrong as the season is now over, and to most people who only follow F1 without known or understanding the fine details but the rules are the rules.

    I am as excited now about this outcome nearly as much as I was before the race on Sunday, how u have to love this sport when the fat lady has sung and left the build only of some grey suited guy to stand up and say ‘Actually can I point to rule number…….!!!’

    How I love this sport.

    1. Mingojo says:

      Interesting JEV was slowing down so much during safety car. It looks like he wants to give a 20 seconds cushion to someone in case of penalties.

  23. kenneth c says:

    Its clear that SV passed a green waved flag before passing JEV but before a green flashing light.either way he passed under green conditions no matter what angle you look at it. I’m not sure if flashing light takes precedence over waved flags. I do not think so, as it would cause great confusion without a good reason. I analogise with a traffic police waving cars through pass a red traffic light, the police instructions. It would be extremely unfair to penalise an individual who obeys the rule, that is passing under green is permissible. The colour of section of track should be the determinative factor not the apparatus delivering the message of the green sector. Both flag and light convey the same message, any other interpretation would create manifest absurdity. As a SV supporter I think he obeyed the rules but as a massive F1 fan I would hate to see the WDC decided on a relatively technical infringement. It was not double waved yellows. I doubt Alonso wanted to win this way and it would bring the sport into disrepute and alienate all the fans who want to watch racing not politicking. Rules are rules, SV obeyed them and to those who cannot accept Alonso lost, everyone in the know states that Alonso lost before Brazil. Not at Brazil, all SV demonstrated is that he is a deserving champion.

  24. dansus says:

    Such a minor infraction, which affected nothing, results should stand.

    1. Morten says:

      So minor infractions of the rules are okay, if they do not affect any given result? That’s your view and you’re more than entitled to it, but let me add how that’s not entirely within the spirit of any sport guarded by an official rulebook.

      1. JF says:

        There was no infraction period. No rules were broken. The pass was under a green flag as spelled out in the article.

      2. Morten says:

        I was not referring to this particular incident, I should have stated as much. I believe dansus was referring to the alledged rule-breaking overtake, though.

  25. [MISTER] says:

    James,
    That still is real. I have just looked now on iPlayer on BBC and that flag is yellow when the leaders go past that marshall, but the marshall then changes the yellow with a green flag.

    The problem is that on lap 3 (as shown on the still) Vettel overtakes the Marrusia of Charles Pic. That still is not from when he overtook Vergne.
    Anyone in the UK can check that on the BBC website on the iPlayer.
    Here’s 2 photos below that I took as a print screen from the BBC video.
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/547/greenp.jpg/ believe me, that flag is green and is being waived and Vettel is the last car.
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/marrusia.jpg/ this is couple of seconds later when Vettel overtakes C Pic.

    Last printscreen shows at the bottom of the page that Vettel just passed C pic and ahead of him is De La Rosa and then Vergne.
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/vettelx.jpg/

  26. Wade Parmino says:

    I think Vettel will get away with this. The confusion and mixed signals would be a valid defence (as much as I would like Alonso to be Champion instead).

    If the onboard information says one thing about track status and the track marshall’s flag says something different, is there any regulation stating which one the driver must give priority to?

    1. Martin says:

      His not getting away with anything, the flag on the left is green.

    2. iceman says:

      According to the stewards’ decision on Schumacher’s pass at the end of the 2010 Monaco Grand Prix, the answer is neither. Priority goes to what race control intended, even if the lights and/or flags are telling the drivers something different. Which seems as barmy now as it did at the time, but it was the decision they made.

  27. meg says:

    Yep, Vettel has done wrong. And if we watch a few of the earlier grand prix Alonso has done wrong too. And Kimi. And Jenson. And, if we go back far enough, all the rest of them.

    Guess what, the only one who hasn’t done any wrong in any grand prix is Lewis.

    And so, by my calculation, Lewis must be crowned WDC!

    1. Afonso Ronda says:

      He he he. Loved it!

  28. Alvaro says:

    The picture is from lap 3, Vettel has a Marussia car in front.

    The Vergne overtaking manoeuvre was executed on lap 4.

    1. Steve says:

      Do tell, what colour is the flag from that post on lap 4?

  29. Steve says:

    The shot back down the straight is on the previous lap, that said if you watch the slowed down onboard clip (making sure to select the 780p option on youtube to get a better look at it) you can just make out the flag still being waved on the lap in question.

  30. Laurence H says:

    The BBC are reporting that Alonso is pushing for this. This is a disgrace coming from a man who still has the Singapore 2008 ‘victory’ on his record. Whether he knew about Crashgate or not, he should ask to have it removed from his record.
    I’m not even starting on his 2 championship winning cars…

    1. Morten says:

      I do not agree about your ‘disgrace’ comment, but I think you’re right in as much as he should have asked to have the Singapore victory erased from his record.

      1. F1fan4life says:

        Why dont you have Schumacher remove his 1994 world championship while your at it? If that stands why should Fernando give up his victory. He was the best driver in Singapore that day anyway.

      2. Morten says:

        I’d rather not go into that kind of a discussion of scenario vs. scenario and driver vs. driver. I’ll merely say that were it me, I would have asked for the victory to be erased.

    2. Irish con says:

      I would love to know how the bbc would know this. I think this is classic British media making alonso look like the bad guy again.

    3. Wade Parmino says:

      Alonso had nothing to do with the crashgate conspiracy. He benefitted from it yes, but had no hand in it. As far as he is concerned he drove a hard race in Singapore and won, why should he hand it back.

      If Alonso really is pushing for a review, I’m sure James would have included this in his report. So far not the case. Even if he is, it is worth a shot considering a championship is at stake. If the FIA do review it, whatever the result of the investigation, it will be the right one.

      As for his Renault won championships, those cars were just as legal as Vettel’s Red Bulls have been, if not more so. The legality of the RB has been much closer to the edge of the regulations.

      1. Laurence H says:

        ” Alonso had nothing to do with the crashgate conspiracy”

        Ha ha ha ha….

      2. Wade Parmino says:

        Not sure if you read beyond the first sentence of my post. If you have, are you claiming that Alonso conspired with Piquet Jr and Briatore on the incident? That is a serious accusation. What evidence do you have to support this?
        SFA I’m guessing.

      3. Gravity says:

        Alonso was just an innocent racer who pitted way early and be at the right place at the right time when the crash happened… at a circuit where overtaking was next to impossible without DRS aid… ha ha ha ha ha

  31. GordonD says:

    It would be a tragedy in so many levels to undo the championship – especially when similar questions have been raised about earlier races. A full audit of all these events would surely be in order bringing scorn to all involved

    To me the real question is why we still expect drivers to respond to waived flags at all. Why not get rid of them and exclusively use the on board lights – except for the checkered flag of course.

    Having marshalled, albeit arsmaller tracks and less prestigious events, I am familiar with the confusion which sometimes arises – especially the place where normal racing can resume.

  32. Richard says:

    I really wanted Alonso to be a 3rd World Champion but not sure that a change of result 3 days after the season is the best way to do it. Alonso is the best driver in my eyes but it would not be good PR for F1 if the result was now changed.

    1. Wade Parmino says:

      I don’t think it would hurt F1. Controversy generates interest.

  33. coronwen says:

    I really, really wanted Alonso to win the WDC … but not like this. It’d be sad. Let the best man win in 2013.

  34. James says:

    James, here is Sky footage of the green flag being brought out at the Marshall post in question one lap prior to the Vergne overtake. This corresponds with the photo above:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEwopNwWFs

    1. MISTER says:

      That is from a lap earlier when Vettel was overtaking C Pic. Vettel overtook Vergne a lap later and no images were broadcasted because they were showing replays of the start and the crash.
      The only video of the Vergne overtake is from those who were recording Vettel’s on-board.

  35. Kent says:

    Hi James, I believe the pass is legitimate, but the pass occurred on lap four, while the image you have of the green flag marshal appears to be from lap 3.

  36. Carlos says:

    In my opinion there’s a contradiction in race direction, the problem no longer has to do with Vettel -or any other driver for that matter, the fact that the sector starts off by giving flashing yellow lights (indicating yellow flags), and then there’s a Marshal holding a green flag, before the end of the sector and then another yellow flashing light at the actual end of the sector is somewhat puzzling. The FIA has to impose the one and only way to read the flags, be it by the lights or the actual flags held by Marshals, it’s quite difficult to judge Sebastian in this situation where he could have not known he had done an illegal move or not. In my opinion if a penalty was to be given, I think the FIA should have done so by now and not until after all the championship celebrations had been done, the champagne has already been spilled, now its a long wait for next season.

    1. Ricardo says:

      The light after the marshall is green, not yellow.

  37. Steve JR says:

    Yikes! It’s a shame they didn’t spot that one somewhat earlier on the day of the race. If they end up crowning Alonso, it will look rather silly, but the sport is built on a myriad of rules so in a sense, if they turn a blind eye to it then what do the rules mean? One would have to feel sorry for Seb if this happens. Circus?…what circus?!

  38. Adam M says:

    Is the Vettel/Vergne pass not on Lap 4 therefore making the reverse-angle image moot?

  39. Tim B says:

    Wow. That’s a turn-up.

    I was happy that the initial concern about Vettel passing under yellow (from later in the race, I think) seemed to have been resolved – I don’t like the idea either of someone winning the WC under cloudy circumstances, or of a controversial retrospective re-awarding of the championship.

    From a personal bias perspective I would prefer that Alonso had won the championship, but unless it turns out that Vettel had benefited from this to the extent that he wouldn’t otherwise have finished where he needed to, I probably wouldn’t feel comfortable about the championship being re-awarded because of it.

    The cynical part of me doubts that anything will come of it, anyway – the FIA and Bernie will prefer to minimise controversy. It will be interesting to see how much noise Ferrari make about it, though.

  40. KRB says:

    You would think the FIA would have software by now that could track what signal any marshalling light is giving, and see if any passes are made in yellow caution areas. Then these passes could be flagged for follow-up by the stewards. The FIA really have to get stewards investigating and rendering decisions quicker than at present.

    To go back now and re-open this would just turn F1 into a laughingstock.

  41. Chromatic says:

    Surely the FIA played the tape in slo mo when they looked at all the evidence.
    In any case, we’ve just had the best season ever. I really hope it’s not spoilt by desperate re-winds.

  42. Michael P says:

    FIA will not overturn the championship results even though I am biased towards Ferrari I think it would cause an uproar. I think he passes under yellow but more concerning was how everyone was letting him through because they were afraid to race him. It’s evident that Vergne let Seb pass, Schumacher did so why does that sit well with fans. I am fine with Mark moving over because he is a team mate buts no one else.

    1. Wade Parmino says:

      Yes, I hear you. Imagine if Button had slowed and let Alonso through. What an uproar there would be (and rightly so). That said, there is no way of policing these things.

  43. goober says:

    “were they to find beyond doubt that Vettel had made a pass under yellows”

    There appears to be plenty of doubt. Would Fernando want it this way?

  44. Kimi4WDC says:

    What is the fuss about? Marshal waving green, which overrides any technical de-sync. Nothing wrong, get over it.

    Two scenarios:
    1. Marshal waving red, in-car tab tells you green.

    2. Qualifying, official lap time puts you third on the grid, on-board timing gives you pole.

    In Karting if you start telling marshal that you ignored his sign cause “you though that and that” you will get DSQ straight away.

  45. Pasquale Mendoza says:

    I was rooting for Alonso to win the title, but this one’s Vettel’s. He may have had yellow lights on his wheel, but he had passed the last yellow light by the track side and could see a green one was next, and he had gone past a marshal waving a green flag. Enough defence for him there.

    1. Wayne says:

      I was rooting for Alonso as well! However, the sport has to make a decision (which it has done) and stand by it. Vettel was awarded the championship and Vettel should keep the championship for the good of the sport.

      However, the FIA should answer why they were so quick and so keen to state that Vettel’s pass was legal when it clearly was not – another example (as if F1 needed another) that commercialism and politics hold sway at the FIA – i.e. they did not want the season ended under appeal so they appear to have tried to brush this under the carpet, despite, as I understamnd it, contrary advice from the race stewards!

      1. Sebee says:

        Not ilke they have anything else to do now, and with the video evidence this one was easy to wrap up.

        And how do you figure the pass was not legal?

      2. JF says:

        the pass was clearly legal

      3. Wayne says:

        Yes, in retrospect I think it was.

  46. Alex says:

    I think it’s pretty clear, the green flag is there….I think it would be better for next year if these marshal’s post-towers and the lights would be at the exact same spot to avoid this kind of confusion

  47. ben says:

    this just reflects badly on the championship and f1 as a whole, and the fault lies at the door of Ferrari for ‘confirming their interest in examining the (non)evidence, and certain Journo’s (not JA) for making that public.

    granted this came to light via fans and youtube, but Ferrari and media should analyse and draw conclusions privately before announcing anything like this.

    It’s disrespectful to the winner(s) – undermines the FIA and stewarding of the Brazil race and makes Ferrari look like fools really.

    They are trying to sell cars at the end of the day and create a brand we all love, folk won’t want a ferrari if they associate it with an institution that resorts to using all their political might to influence situations to their favour.

    IMO If they make any further official statements or anything other than a full retraction type statement, They should be sanctioned by FIA for making all parties look silly after a really good championship.

    1. Carlos says:

      Has Ferrari actually made any official announcements? It sounds like journalists have asked them about it, and they’ve given a “we’re looking into it” non-answer. I think you’re jumping the gun.

      1. ben says:

        Update: They wrote to fia.

      2. Morten says:

        James will have his sources. Given the kind of attention this has had over the days, a post is certainly merited.

  48. Mike J says:

    It is a shame that it has happened after such a great year. However rules are rules no matter if they are reviewed before, during or after a race.
    Trying to take an impartial view, i can see doubt on the issue because of confusion between the in-car info and the external info from the marshall sector point. Which takes precedence. I would say the flag point but this has been argued against previously.
    It would cause so much bad feeling in and outside the sport that i cannot see it being overturned……and i doubt Bernie would allow it!!…i reckon there is already some behind the scenes phone calls going on giving advice on the situation!!

    1. Wade Parmino says:

      Bernie has nothing to do with it and if he started pulling strings in Vettel’s favour it would become immeasurably worse for the image of Formula 1. And please don’t anyone start saying words to the effect that Jean Todt and the FIA are an extension of Ferrari. That is rubbish.

      1. Mike J says:

        Hey Wade
        Lighten up a bit. My comment on Bernie were tongue in check. People take themselves to seriously.
        And by the way, never raised Jtodt or Ferrari names and have never quoted the Ferrari so not sure how you linked that.

      2. Wade Parmino says:

        My response to you was just regarding the Bernie aspect. The FIA comments were said with me over-estimating the potential for such claims from others. Apologies if it came across as a bit harsh. No worries. :)

  49. paul jaworski says:

    James, this is interesting to say the least. No matter what the FIA does, they will have ticked off maybe half of the worlds racing fans. My question would be this, If / when the lights and the flag man are out of sync, which takes precedent? Probably another very gray area in the rule book. My take? Did JEV lift? If so they need to dock Seb. Please keep us informed on this one.

    1. MDS says:

      The lights and flag being “out of sync” is a misperception. The light is there, and further on track there’s a marshall with a flag. Each of them have authority over the enfollowing piece of track.

      So a yellow light before a marshall with green flag would just mean the track is yellow from the yellow light up until the green flag. From there on, the track is green.

    2. Martin says:

      The flag man would take precedent because TECHNOLOGY is not always reliable, the same as if the radio would not work, they use the pit board.

  50. EDM says:

    It’s a close call, but I think Vettel should be given the 20 second penalty.

    I also think the FIA will not do it at this stage because it’d create a big controversy and leave them exposed to accusations of altering the result.

    The moment to review and rule was Sunday, not now.

    1. Antti says:

      Why should he be given a penalty if there is no wrong doing? To my eye, it’s clear the marshall was waving a green flag, and that’s the ultimate authority on the track. Lights on the steering wheel are there just to help and inform the driver, but might lag behind what’s happening on the track.

    2. Steve says:

      Basically everyone who I’ve seen say it’s a “close call” is ignoring the flag man at the start of the straight and referring to the electronic board much further along where he is completing the pass.

      1. EDM says:

        I think you’re both right: I had not seen the marshall. I stand corrected.

        Still, the FIA was a bit clumsy not releasing the footage and clarifying the situation right away.

  51. Scott says:

    Seems pretty clear cut from the video: the green flag can clearly be seen. Bit of a non-issue, really, and just another example of the “gamesmanship” surrounding Ferrari that Christian Horner was talking about.

    So, where does the yellow flag section end if first there is a marshal flying a green flag and a green light a bit further up the road? It would not be reasonable to expect Vettel to make that decision at that moment. If there’s dubiety then the FIA should sort it out, but in the meantime he saw something green and went racing again. Benefit of the doubt must apply.

    Nice try, though, Ferrari fans.

    1. Kay says:

      “So, where does the yellow flag section end if first there is a marshal flying a green flag and a green light a bit further up the road?”

      I have the same question too, and have always wondered that.

      I’ve also wondered when drivers have to ‘lift’ when going through a yellow, how much do they have to lift, when do they have to start lifting, and when can they accelerate as normal again? Everytime I see a yellow section which drivers have to pass NOT at full speed, from TV they seem to me as if they’re still driving at full speed. So I can’t really tell the difference really.

  52. Mac1 says:

    I agree with your assessment. That looks to be a green flag waved before the overtake. Regardless of the outcome (althought I hope it will be deemed a legal overtake) I do think it’s sad that Ferrari (including Alonso) are prepared to try and challenge and possibly overturn the title based on this (in effect a dozen or so metres), and an overtake that had no bearing on the race (especially when it was a Toro Rosso who would have let him pass anyway). I do not buy their “noble” excuse that “the rules are the rules”. It would ruin this sport if a decision was overturned 7 days after the event.

  53. JB HAM says:

    Vergne let him past?

  54. Wu says:

    So… the championship fight is decided by a colour blind or a ‘simple’ marshal. Great… between the lottery tyres and gimmecky devices, this really sums up the championship.

    1. kenneth c says:

      the championship was decided when Alonso qualified mid pack for both Japan and Belgium leaving him exposed to start incidents. The whole season did not boil down to a single incident.

      1. Chris says:

        Vettes wins and battling drives had nothing to do with it, thanks for clearing that up for us all!!

      2. kenneth c says:

        Vettel’s drives were a champion’s drive but Alonso’s inability to qualify better made Vettel’s championship look even better

      3. Mingojo says:

        Sorry, but how Alonso could qualify better than he did in Spa and Japan with the car he had? Please, enlight us!!!

      4. kenneth c says:

        i’m not saying he is incapable of qualifying better given the car, rather that’s the car that his team gave him. he wins as a team loses as a team. so THEY, Ferrari and Alonso lost because they made a car that could only qualify mid pack.

      5. Mingojo says:

        The team is called Ferrari, no Alonso. Be more precise! The way you wrote your comment looks like Alonso is a bad qualifier, when the reality is he didn’t have the tools to qualify well.

  55. Ed says:

    It would be a shame if the WDC was decided this way. As much as I would have liked to have seen Alonso take the title this year I don’t think he would want to win in this manner. If that is a green flag (and looks to me like it is) then this is a storm in a teacup.

    1. Joel says:

      I read somewhere that it is Alonso who is pushing Ferrari to protest the Sunday’s result.

      1. Michael says:

        Hi Joel

        Can you provide a definite link that quotes a definite source. Because rumourmongering isn’t fair. James article article above is speculative. He says ‘If FIA were to review the …. Nowhere does James say anything else. Even the headline states ‘IF’.

        I haven’t come across one news article that directly quotes Ferrari as protesting to the FIA. You supply a link and I’m happy to stand corrected.

        In the meantime, I think it would be nice – and just – to assume Ferrari have decided the incident is okay. Doing otherwise would unfairly paint them as sore losers and whingers.

        I’m not an Alonso fan; I admire his ability. But seriously I can’t believe the attitude of those [not you Joel] who jump at the chance to be so diss on a driver; be they Alonso, Vettel or Pic! :)

  56. Carlo_Carrera says:

    I see a green flag so that tells me the mistake was made by race control and the marshals. Not Vettel.

  57. Jay says:

    For the sake of F1, I hope the FIA does not do this.

    Imagine if the FA reviewed a penalty claim or disputed goal and retroactively changed the result of a cup final. Nothing good can come of this.

  58. Alan Baker says:

    First: there are two passes.

    The one on lap three (a Marussia?) was captured by the main feed and I’ve checked my PVR video and you can clearly see a waving green flag in the same location pointed out in the still image above.

    On lap four, there was another pass of J-E Vergne in a Toro Rosso at the same point on the track, and in the in-car video you can see a marshall at the same point on the track waving some flag. Now it seems to me, that he would still be waving a green.

    1. James Allen says:

      There are three but the first two are clearly ok

  59. Darren says:

    It’s too late now, particularly as there is ambiguity around the matter.

  60. CATINATREE says:

    Justice will be served if overturned, however, once an obvious and egregious error has been made (as in this case), typically those who dropped the ball, will not admit the error of their ways, and nothing is done to make it right.

    1. Antti says:

      What is the obvious error?

  61. dean cassady says:

    This would be terrible for the championship and Formula One as a whole.
    They can’t have the final result decided by a steward review, now, four days later.
    Even if it was totally legitimate, its just too much not to reek, at this stage.
    Ferrari are a classy organization, and they don’t want their branding, including their star stag branded with a win like that. That is image damaging stuff, for sure.
    The Vettel-Red Bull package won the race, not just legitimately, spiritually, as well.
    I noticed the pass on Vergne; but all of the yellow-flag incidents, yes plural, were grey to say the least. But there was something…
    But, what does it matter, now?

    1. Vipin says:

      So, why F1 have rules made by FIA.

      Anyone overtake anyone, anywhere. No Rules.

      Is that ur point?

      OR

      Just simply to keep in books, saying we have rules.

      1. dean cassady says:

        No, that’s not the point at all.
        Even if the incidents were almost completely without controversy, and in each case, there is antagonistic evidence that the driver would unambiguously know he was driving under a yellow flag, but even if it was without controversy, the other circumstances would create a firestorm of negative branding, which could be crippling for the sport, and therefore everyone involved, if the World Championship was decided by these types of penalties, really coming into the awareness of the fan, three days after the event was over!

        What I am saying is, they are ambiguous enough to call them ‘racing’, and not sufficiently clearly in contradiction of the rules to change the awards for the race, and thus title.

  62. Jim Dee says:

    Regardless of this adding 20 seconds to his time when the race finished under safety car is more unfair. Vettel was 20.4 seconds ahead of Vergne when the safety car was deployed.

    1. Señor Sjon says:

      FIA has no problems with that. Remember Schumacher’s move on Alonso @ Monaco 2010. They didn’t only gave Alonso his place back, but punished Schumacher as well. The rules back then were unclear at best with the SC leaving, the SC line at the pit entry and green flags waving. In the race you could overtake, but suddenly not in the end?

      Vergne did his utmost best to gap 20 seconds to Vettel behind the SC. If Vettel gets punished, they could punish Vergne as well for not keeping the group packed. So nothing changes.

  63. Heinzman says:

    From an Alonso fan, it would be very unfair to impose a penalty retrospectively thereby removing the Red Bull team’s opportunity to recover the deficit.

    If there are mixed signals it should be open/shut.

  64. rob says:

    If you look at Vettel’s steering wheel lights, it clearly shows that he is still in a yellow flag zone. ie 2 yellow lights either end of the red ones……pretty conclusive, a pass under yellow…not any room for debate as far as i can see.

    1. James Allen says:

      And the green flag? Doesn’t that cast doubt?

      1. Paul says:

        The BBC quotes the rules as saying when the lights in the car, and the signals outside conflict, the ones outside take precedence. If so, that would put Vettel in the clear. At best, the reasonable doubt should be with him if there are mixed signals.

      2. Nesto says:

        what is more likely to make an error… a human marshal or a driver’s steering wheel thats controlled by… the ECU ? Are drivers ever told which to trust when the 2 contradict another ?

        IMO, if 3-time WDC Vettel can’t tell the difference… WOW… reminds me of Hamilton “confused” by all the lights on his steering wheel in Valencia 2010 while overtaking the SC. A normal person could say that, not the elite of the elite drivers in the world.

      3. Steve says:

        The lights on the wheel only change when you pass an electronic marker, so yes they can be out of sync. The flags and trackside lights have standing in the sporting regulations, the dash lights dont.

        If you think they never malfunction, refer to Kimi being blue flagged for most of the Australian GP according to his dash ;).

      4. Diesel says:

        The presence of the green flag does cast doubt – but it was being waved. I’ve read somewhere that the only flags that are waved are the yellows and chequered. Is this correct James? If so, is this marshall error?

        Additionally, was there not a yellow light showing on the outside of turn 3 at the same time?

        As someone else said, if you are in any doubt, safety first!

      5. Mike says:

        This is a race, not driwing home the kids from school. You race at the instant you have the green light(or flag) and dont play it safe. How many people would watch F1 with drivers pulling back thinking sorry I intruded, do take my place in the line….

      6. Diesel says:

        Mike – scenario. Alonso bears right around Curve Grande at 180 with a flashing yellow light in front of him on the outside and momentarily glimpses a green flag on the inside.

        He’s in doubt and decides not to lift. As he exits, he clips a stranded car just off the edge of the circuit. Who’s fault is the accident?

    2. Stan says:

      Oh for God’s sake. It doesn’t matter.
      From BBC,
      “If there is any discrepancy between what is displayed on a driver’s dashboard and what is being displayed on the track, then the trackside flags and lights take precedence.”

      Flags> driver’s dashboard

      The pass is legal. End of the story.

      1. Martin says:

        + 100

    3. Antti says:

      Lights on the steering wheel are not the ultimate authority of the track conditions, marshalls on the track are. There is clearly a green flag waved before the pass, hence the pass is legitimate.

    4. Ben B says:

      As far as I understand the rules, the dash lights are supplemental and the trackside indicators (flags or lights) are what decisions should be based on.

  65. aaronbob says:

    Personally I hope it doesn’t change the result. I would have liked to see Alonso take the title but don’t want to see it happen like this.

    If it was a green flag would that take priority over the yellow light in the car?

  66. Charles says:

    This is not the pass, or signaling in question. Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAEq1VycYRA

    1. Antti says:

      This video does not notice the green flag of the marshall in the last incident, just the green light which is located a bit further down the track. It is a legitimate pass.

  67. SAINIside says:

    Seems like Vettel had decided in the overtake well before that section. Yellow lights flashing in car, flashing yellows in the distance, but he still went for it. The green flag (if there actually was one) would have been more diffucult to see! Was there any regard for the actual reason a yellow flag is put out?

    On another note, if Vergne did lift, why did he? Torro Rosso helping RBR like that is surely illegal?

    1. Zephyr says:

      Sure it is. Just another unfair advantage of Red Bull over the rest. They are the only team with four cars in the grid.

      1. Mike says:

        Sauber, Perez….nothing more said

  68. Dan B says:

    Have you pressed print yet on your book James?!!

    1. Morten says:

      Hehe, I thought the same – “stop the press”! Good one :-)

  69. andrew says:

    What about the inconsistent administration of penalties for causing an avoidable accident. Hulk gets penalised for the backend getting away from him under braking in the wet, and vettel gets away with chopping into the apex of turn 4 after conservative braking with no consideration as to anyone being on the inside. I would think that after braking early, with 2/3rds of the field behind you, there is going to be someone sniffing up the inside.

    If vettel gets reviewed and found guilty, then this is not a pretty way for FA to clinche the title, but at the end of the day, rules are rules and are required to be adheared to.

    1. kenneth c says:

      the difference between the hulkenberg-hamiton incident and vettel-senna incident as i see it is that vettel was ahead at the point he turned in. I would think being ahead at the time gives him the right to take the line, otherwise everyone who is behind would just risk a dive on the inside and hope for the best. it was a racing incident in my opinion

      1. F1fan4life says:

        Senna had nowhere to go… just because you are leading doesn’t mean you can close the door fully. If it was the other round Senna would have been hung out to dry but because it’s the golden boy it’s a….racing incident. Incidentally it ended Sennas last chance to fight for his career.

  70. Aussie Rod says:

    Wow.

    I can’t see a reversal happening, it would be too damaging for the sports image. Bernie could and would ensure this gets buried even if the FIA decided otherwise… or could he?

    Wow.

  71. Peppers says:

    I think the FIA should review it. It will make them look silly, but for fairness sake they need to.

    I am a Hamilton fan, so I admit my judgement may be impaired slightly, but I think Vettel has gottten away with a few indiscretions lately.

    In the last two weeks he has overtaken under yellow flags, caused an accident by running into Senna, and i think in Austin he even set a personal best sector time in qualifying while a yellow flag was out in that sector. Apparently there have been other misdemeanours during the year (according to the paper).

    Not saying any penalties should have been given for any of these, but it is surprising they were not even investigated at the time.

    Interesting to see what happens next. Hope it is fair, but not too messy.

    1. kenneth c says:

      James could clarify this but you can still set the fastest sector time as long as you lift off sufficiently at the portion of the sector which the yellows were waving

  72. Karl Randerz says:

    For me its quite clear. The lights on his steering wheel dont go out and therefore still under yellow flags conditions. He should be penalised without any doubt.
    I agree it wont reflect good on F1 to change it after so many days, but yet again, it wont look good that they dont do anything cause of their image.

    1. KnowThyRules says:

      The lights on the steering wheel are a driver aid. They are NOT covered by the sporting regulations. Flags and trackside lights are what defines what cautions are valid and they are covered by the sporting regulations. Furthermore Flags superseed the lights.

    2. kenneth c says:

      as James said, what about the waving green flag? I think benefit of the doubt should be given

    3. wiz says:

      You need to read the rules! The lights on the steering wheel are only an aid for the driver. The regulations work only on the flags and lights on the track. Clear as day – no penalty!

  73. Liam in Sydney says:

    Nothing will happen with this. There is clearly a green flag (even if only displayed there by accident), so the whole argument is moot. SV will not be held responsible for this. The time for analysis and penalty was during the race.

    1. Zephyr says:

      You need to read the rules.

  74. Braumin says:

    I’m not a big Vettel fan, but after watching the slow mo shot it seems pretty clear he was past a green flag so I doubt they would change the results of the championship over this.

  75. Vipin says:

    Not only Vettel passed Vergene, he also passed Koboyashi under Yellow Flags in pit straights.

    Even Sky Sports showed this video during the race and I was thinking why they didn’t penalize him for this passing.

    This is ridiculous for not following the simple rules by track marshals or by FIA.

    1. Antti says:

      The pass on Kobayashi was under yellow-red conditions (indicated by red-striped flags and steady yellowish lights), which allow passing.

    2. Ben B says:

      The pass on Kobayashi was under solid-yellow lights, which as everyone found out on Sunday evening, are the equivalent of red and yellow waved flags (oil/water slippery track).

  76. Irish con says:

    The more and more of it I see the worse it looks for vettel. He also uses kers in this. Not sure what’s going to happen but clearly it needs looking into by the fia even without Ferrari protesting.

  77. aby says:

    Although I support Ferrari and Alonso I wouldn’t want a change in this years result. I feel the punishment if any should have been given to Vettel at the time of the race and a change in result now would be hugely unfair to Vettel, Red Bull and also the viewing public. The core F1 fan base might understand but for the rest a change in result and in championship would be largely confusing. Since it was at the beginning of the race the fault lies with the marshals as they had enough time to view this incident and decide upon the penalty if any. I hope FIA and Ferrari let this one slide.

  78. PeteJaxon says:

    I brought this up during the race on a couple of F1 forums I frequent, and most people didn’t even seem to know what I was talking about, then someone mentioned that the yellow lights, when static and not flashing, signify slippery conditions, rather a danger zone. That explanation seemed plausible, and Pat Fry confirmed it post race, so it seems odd this issue is being brought up again, or am I missing something.

    1. Antti says:

      The incident you are talking about is Vettel’s pass on Kobayashi and it was a legitimate pass. This is a different incident, Vettel passing Vergne, but equally legitimate, since the marshall on the track waves the green flag.

    2. Carlos says:

      You’re talking about Vettel’s pass on Kobayashi. That was on yellow-and-red flags (solid yellow lights), which are just a warning of slippery conditions. You can overtake under those flags.

      This was a separate incident between Vettel and Vergne.

  79. Sam says:

    I really hope Ferrari leave this alone.

    F1 has had a stellar year of racing.. the return of a few characters to the grid, a number of winning drivers AND constructors and countless exciting races.

    2012 was also devoid of any massive contraversy or negative politics. I will be disgusted if Ferrari follow this through.

    As they have admitted post Brazil .. Their car wasn’t good enough, and they lost valuable points in Suzuka and Spa. That’s where the championship was lost. Not with a borderline illegal overtake from Vettel in the wet.

    They need to be real men, suck it up and come back in 2013 and win it properly.

    1. Kay says:

      but what IF (big IF) RBR in this race didn’t win it properly themselves, and stole it off Ferrari by overtaking under yellows?

      The same argument applies to RBR too.

  80. Scott says:

    Does this mean that RBR are looking at thousands of hours of footage of all this years races to find a similar situation involving Alonso or any one in that case as they may have 20 seconds added to their time therefor promoting Vettel up the race standings.
    Ridiculous, move on to 2013.

  81. Brock says:

    I love F1! The racing maybe over but the story of the year is just beginning.
    I can’t see the FIA taking the championship off Seb. As James writes it has to be ‘beyond doubt’ and the footage raises too many question marks for this to happen.

    I hope you are holding off on the book publishing James so you can add another chapter of what happens behind the scenes with this story.

  82. SENNA QLD says:

    to late let it go

  83. Raymond YZJ says:

    Hi James – the still shot you put up right at the very end is of Lap 3, when Vettel is overtaking Charles Pic. The questioned Vergne overtake is Lap 4.

    As I understand it track flags take precedence – and so this is a non-issue. Perhaps the green flag was mistakenly waved, but you cannot penalise a driver for following wrongly-given instructions.

  84. AndyFov says:

    I can really do without this. Whatever hapopens now, depending on your perspective, this will either be remembered as the WDC that Seb won via cheating, or the won that Ferrari won in the courts. Both damage the sport’s integrity.

    My gut feeling is the result should stand. Mainly because Alonso got to keep the win won when Piquet crashed for him.

    1. Kay says:

      “this will either be remembered as the WDC that Seb won via cheating, or the won that Ferrari won in the courts. Both damage the sport’s integrity.”

      Good point. Your first part of the paragraph is what everyone’s missed out here.

      1. James Allen says:

        Neither are the case, so let’s stop getting worked up about it

      2. Kay says:

        Not working up about anything, just saying things that everyone’s missed, but that’s IF Vettel overtook under yellows.

        I mean let’s forget about who are the drivers involved, put anyone into Alonso / Ferrari’s shoes, wouldn’t they do the same to investigate? I’m sure RBR would. It’s just in the case, everyone are working up about it due to knowing it’s RBR vs Ferrari, VET vs ALO.

        I’m just saying what everyone’s missed due to the names in this case are known.

      3. Vipin says:

        Does that mean, Vettel should be penalized for this action?

      4. Kay says:

        Imo, if evidence really proved he passed under yellows, then yes. If not, then his results stand.

        I mean let’s face it:
        IF Vettel is proven to have overtook under yellows, but his WDC status to stand, that’d taint his 3rd WDC.
        IF Vettel is proven to have overtook under yellows, but WDC passed to Alonso, Alonso’s 3rd WDC would be tainted.

        So either way, it is the FIA’s that’s more screwed over this than either RBR or Ferrari, or Vettel or Alonso.

        Had the FIA spotted this during the course of the race, all parties would have been better off, and Vettel giving a position back to JEV, then overtake him again, would most definitely end him up where he is right now in the end anyway.

        And just to add: Ferrari not protesting, it’s automatically investigated by the FIA due to their own rules.

        FIA’s at fault if you ask me.

      5. Steve says:

        You missed the other if, if Vettel passed under greens (which he did) all is OK ;).

  85. Deez says:

    James,
    Actually, in that video you have, you can clearly see a yellow flashing light on the right hand side of the track opposite of the marshall stand. Your vid is in super slow motion so it appears to be a solid yellow flag, but the following vid shows it to be flashing yellow.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2U-BI356uQ

  86. well this should sell some newspapers…

  87. Alex Baxter says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2U-BI356uQ In this video it shows Vettel overtake Pic under greens then Vergne in which it is clear it is yellows. Yes there appears to be a Marshal with a flag, but at the same time a yellow light is on to the right AND the yellow LED lights on Vettels steering wheel (which are always on in yellow flag areas) are also on showing it is clearly yellow flag conditions. Its an illegal overtake without any doubt.

    1. Antti says:

      The track side marshals are the ultimate authority of track conditions. The green flag and the pass took place after all the yellow lights on the track side, even the yellow light on the right that you mention. Lights on the steering wheel do not immediately follow what the marshals are waving, so are not the true indicator of track conditions.

      1. Kay says:

        but the steering wheel lights immediately follow what the FIA computers send to the cars to tell the drivers of the conditions. So how is that not an authority?

        If it’s really as useless as you say, why have it then?

      2. Antti says:

        Like I said, the steering wheel lights do not -immediately- follow the track conditions. In this case, they failed to notice that the green flag was waved, as the lights only update within certain periods. Obviously, this doesn’t make them useless, just that they are not the ultimate authority.

      3. Kay says:

        “Lights on the steering wheel do not immediately follow what the marshals are waving”

        I think the electornics are more up-to-date to the FIA computers than the flags. How can you tell they are only updated within certain periods? Technology we and the FIA have can certainly do better than that. It could be the other way round to what you said, and the green flag waved by a marshall is more prone to human error that electronics.

      4. James Allen says:

        The lights on the wheel aren’t what counts. Flags count

  88. Nicky Santoro says:

    James, the still image does not correspond to the incident. It can be seen that Vettel is behind a Marussia, not a TR.

    Still, the relevant part about the marshall waving a green flag can not be very well ascertained by the video. A higher resolution one would be needed… Evidence seems to point to a green flag being waved, but it is impossible to see.

    But if the pass had actually been made under yellows, then fair is fair and Vettel should get the penalty. Avoiding it just because it looks bad would make the sport even more of a laughing stock.

  89. sumedh says:

    James,

    Slightly off-topic. If race results can be changed 4-5 days after the race, then can someone challenge the results of Singapore 2008 please?

    1. James Clayton says:

      Because 2-4 days is totally in the same ball park as 2 years.

      Anyway what could you possibly do? Exclude Piquet from the Race? Give him race bans for the next few races?

      There is nothing in the rules that would affect the 2008 championship outcome if that case was reopened.

    2. Mitchel says:

      +2008!

    3. JimmiC says:

      Whilst we’re going over old news, I reckon Senna deserves the 89 championship, Prost can have the 1990 title, and it’s about time we pulled a Benetton B194 out if whatever museum it is mothballed in and had a look at the electronics…

  90. arvin s says:

    There is a Marshall waving “Green Flag” in the replay between 55-1.05 seconds…. after which Vettel overtakes.
    The on-board light is for driver reference only, and in any case, Flag Marshall’s takes precedence over Light System in any case. A manual flag waving is rated higher than Electronic Lights indicator, which is located only at certain distance to begin with.

    Spanish media witch hunt has begun.

    1. arvin s says:

      Also, Vettel is pure genius to have noticed the GREEN FLAG being waved just before he overtakes TR. I have to admit, Vettel is faster than the people who are unable to fathom that A waved green flag is the FINAL visual point.

      If the Marshall makes a mistake and shows “green” instead of “yellow”… then it’s not the fault of any driver for doing his job in chaotic conditions.

    2. arvin s says:

      Will Buxton
      “3 days after the World Cup final FIFA looks into an alleged foul which should have resulted in a penalty + different winner. Wouldn’t happen”

  91. Vivek says:

    Dear James,

    By all reports, we are talking about incidents on Lap 3 & Lap 4. Surely, early enough in the race that any penalty should be decided during the race and not after it.

    Do we know for sure whether this incident was not reviewed during the race and no action was taken after the review. Some reports have suggested so. That being the case, the matter should definetely be closed. However, if those reports are untrue, then a re-opening may be warranted.

  92. Timo says:

    Oh, how the tables have turned Mr. Alonso.
    ==============

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581?source=mostpopular

    1. PDiddly says:

      From the BBC “The 31-year-old Alonso, …. is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA.”

      This says it all about his grossly unpleasant mentality, truly sinking to his natural level.

      alonso will never win another Championship, Karma is taking care of that. 3 losses from under his nose and it is clearly driving him insane. Haha is all I can say.

      1. trullifan says:

        John Surtees once said there is a dark side to Alonso’s character which needs to be looked into. However he reckoned that Alonso is a fantastic racing driver, one of the very best. I believe that Big John is spot on, on both accounts.

    2. Kay says:

      Nice dig at the archives :D, nice find too.

    3. 69bhp says:

      If he is really pressing Ferrari to appeal then it’s utterly shameful after what he said in 2007.

  93. Cuba says:

    What ever the outcome, why, in the most technical of sports, isn’t there a system to automatically flag overtaking under yellows directly to the stewards during the race?

    Aside from this fan found footage, there seems to be too much of a reliance on drivers and team ‘snitching’ on each other to try to get penalties.

    1. Jason C says:

      That’s what I though when I first heard this story. Why not automate this as much as possible – flag ALL passed automatically when there’s a yellow flag on track.

      This automated system could even automatically cue up the video feeds for review…

  94. lethalnz says:

    from the looks of it Ferrari are not interested in pursuing the issue.
    here is another for which Vettel made an illegal passed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZHaBuaA9oQ

    1. James Clayton says:

      Have Ferrari or Alonso publicly come out and asked for an investigation?

      1. Kay says:

        James (Allen) already said it doesn’t take a protest from Ferrai in order for the FIA to do anything.

      2. James Clayton says:

        Yes. And?

      3. SpaceJunk says:

        To answer your question – no. Andrew Benson has said that “it is believed” Alonso is pushing for a protest. That’s enough for many to get over excited, over emotive and turn “believe” into “Gospel” and fact. Karma, ha ha ha etc. Very childish if you ask me.

        This whole story is mountain out of molehill stuff.

        The only ones who seem concerned with it all are us bloggers and some sections of the media. Seriously, Vettel did no wrong, Alonso isn’t sulking like a spoilt little kid.

        Move on people – nothing to see here.

    2. Mitchel says:

      +2007!

      I mentioned this below too!

      1. Athanasios says:

        The different is yellow flags are a safety issue, overtaking (or not decreasing speed) is dangerous, what if vergne didn’t see vettel coming because he thought he couldn’t be overtaken and a big accident happens where someone gets hurt. That’s a stretch but a dangerous precedent could be set here, regardless of the outcome….

  95. Vipin says:

    This is from BBC Sport’s news,

    “The footage shows Vettel passing two flashing yellow lights then overtaking Vergne down the straight, completing the move before reaching a flashing green light, indicating the end of the yellow zone.

    Rules dictate that the ‘yellow’ zone ends only when the driver passes the first ‘green’ indicator.”

    1. Antti says:

      Given that Vettel passed the first green indicator (flag of the marshal) before the overtake, the only conclusion can be that the pass was legal.

    2. Jonathan says:

      In most contexts, the BBC is an authority, but when it comes to F1 they are completely clueless. I trust JA over the official BBC journos any day.

  96. Sensei.GT says:

    Vernge slowed down for the yellow, SV did not, despite having yellow lights on his dash. It doesn’t matter if the flag is green. The dash light is there to avoid confusion. If Fernando is not made World Champion then the FIA is a farce!

    1. MDS says:

      That is absolutely wrong. The dashboard indicators are merely there to aid the driver, but take no precedence whatsoever over flags or light posts.

    2. Antti says:

      Flags are the -only- thing that matters. Track side marshals are the ultimate authority of the track condtions.

    3. JCA says:

      The flag is the official signal, the lights are a guide.

  97. VR says:

    Wow! just when we thought we had a great season (with minimal politics), we get this – which could potentially be decided in the courts if Ferrari decide to fight it out. I hope it doesn’t go there for the sake of the sport.

    James, Any word on whether Ferrari is considering contesting the race results?

    1. Kay says:

      Just opening a discussion here :)

      What if, for the sake of the sport, RBR won it by ignoring flags though? That’s not good for the sport either. Either way, FIA is screwed because they didn’t notice this on spot during the race.

  98. Nobu says:

    “So there appears to be some confusion over signalling; the lights and the flag do not synchronise.”

    Unless the marshal’s station has a mechanism to change the steering wheel’s status from yellow flag to green, which I highly doubt, it makes sense that the lights on Vettel’s steering wheel won’t change back to green until he reaches the next green light board, which comes *after* the marshal station.

    I don’t see how this affects Vettel’s chammpionship in any way, because he did indeed pass a green flag prior to passing JEV.

    1. Antti says:

      Exactly.

  99. Mehluli Ndebele says:

    i think the FIA need to do the fair thing and thoeorughly investigate the issue. If Vettel passed under yellow flags then he needs to be punished according to the sporting rules and if he ddnt i think he will enjoy his championship better.
    The FIA need to clarify this otherwise it will always leave cloud hanging over Vettel’s championship which in someways can undermine the FIA

    1. Kay says:

      Well said.

      I am an Alonso supporter, but no way I’m saying FIA should investigate for the sake of Alonso, but just to clear up this cloud of smoke for the sake of the 2012 F1 season.

  100. Harsha says:

    I think that the Pass was Legal as you can pass a car after you Pass a Green flag so i don’t think there is any problem with that what’s your take on this move James

  101. Vipin says:

    Another clear video of what Vettel did and this video shows what actually happened.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFER0esusF0

    1. Kay says:

      Video no longer available, removed by YouTube.

      1. Vipin says:

        When I posted it, it was there.

        I think the FIA were afraid of this evidence.

  102. Athanasios says:

    The main problem is the lack of closure after the race, with vettel under suspicion for many yellow flag infringements the fia should have simply sad ‘not under investigation’ and that would be that. However, now doubt will always remain in regards to Vettels third title as yellow flags are meant to be a black and white issue penalty wise, and if in doubt don’t pass – that’s Vettels problem. If a mistake has been made and a Now if alonso is awarded the title he would have missed out on celebrating in the moment

    1. JCA says:

      They did clearly state that the Koba incident was not a yellow flag, it was a slippery track warning. This incident only came to light days after the race, so how are they supposed to handled it just after the race?

  103. Vipin says:

    In Sebastian’s dash the light clearly shows “Yellow”

    And yet he passed Vergne.

    1. Steve says:

      Yes, right after a green flag.

  104. Robert says:

    Logic tells me that if a marshal has a green flag and the light(s) are yellow, or visa versa, the driver cannot be blamed. I am sure that the marshal would have reported the incident should he have thought that it was an illegal pass. It is a fact that STR would not reported the incident, but at that stage of the race when the field were still very very close, some of the other driver could have reported it if thought that it was an illegal pass. My opinion is that the blame lay at the race management.

  105. Malcolm says:

    It seems as though Sebastian ignored the flashing yellow lights on his dash, which alerts him that he is in the yellow flag zone, which can be a problem for him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFER0esusF0

    1. JCA says:

      Flags take precedent over the lights, with are just guides

  106. For sure says:

    Personally I won’t feel so bad for Finger if that happens as he is 25 and has won 2 titles already where as Alonso arguably deserves the title (Coming from a guy who likes anyone who beat Alonso)

    BUT I think this sport will become a joke (well it already is to some people).

    I think everything has to be done on run-time.
    Don’t they have enough man-power and resources to monitor everything on run-time. Well, if they miss it, too bad they better don’t change it.
    Like in football, you cannot change the result just because referee didn’t see someone dived.

    1. Vipin says:

      So, why do you have some articles(rules) given by FIA?

      To say, “Lets forget about that and move to next season?”

      Is that fair what u r saying?

      1. For sure says:

        I think you missed my point. It has to be done on run-time like any other sport.
        And if you want to change the championship results in the past, you cannot be selective, you have to be consistent.
        What about the Renualt 2008 sega? Is it fair that some people benefited and some lost a lot? Is it fair that Alonso gets to keep his win?

        My point is that there are just far too many problems to go back to the past.
        Whether you like it or not, no sport can ever be 100% fair unless you can change the results in the future.
        And there is a reason why no other sport doesn’t do that.

      2. Morten says:

        Ah, well, but no other sport is like F1. No other sport moves as fast, or has so many participants moving so fast, on such a vast playing field, with such passionate fans. F1 is a unique sport. ‘S why we love it so.

      3. Kay says:

        Well 2012 isn’t too far into the past yet, only 4 days. :D

      4. Vipin says:

        What about Schumacher’s penalty in Monaco in 2010 for overtaking Alonso?

      5. For sure says:

        @Morten, I am not sure about that, what about Manny last fight? It happened very fast and he got robbed.

        @Kay and Vipin do have a point.But it’s only highlight the flaws of it’s system.
        Do we have a rule where we can’t change the results if it’s longer than x amount of time?
        If not, there is a problem with consistency as always.

  107. Mohan says:

    Hi James,
    I have always been a McLaren fan and used to detest Alonso in his early days. I still remember his reckless accident many years ago hitting Heikki’s detached tyre in Brazil.

    This year, he has been peerless. Many readers comment that everyone has had their share of woes and things balance out. Not really. Vettel’s woes are either created by his team (alternator) or he has had a questionable hand in the shunts. Alonso has had no hand in the shunts he lost points and he has maximized his team’s ability like no other.

    The FIA would be wise not to open this case as it will leave a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. This has been one of the most exhilarating seasons in recent years (I can remember the years when Hakkinen won the championships) and the FIA has done an admirable job compared to the past years. It is never going to be perfect and we love F1 because of that. Otherwise it would become another boring series with robotic actions. In F1, all the parties involved add a bit of drama.

    There are many drivers who had an element of luck in winning he world championships. Vettel could be one of them. In my heart I have enjoyed Alonso’s racing this year more than anything (except maybe for Hamilton’s performance in Austin). The statistics may stay, but they won’t make Vettel an unforgettable driver.

    1. **Paul** says:

      “Alonso has had no hand in the shunts he lost points”

      I’m sorry to break this to you, but Japan was all of Fernandos doing.

      1. Mohan says:

        What I meant was, if you make a mistake and lose points, you have no right to sulk. If someone takes you out for no fault of yours, that’s what counts.

        Fernando and Vettel have both lost points due to either their teams mistakes or their own mistakes. You can’t hold that against the other driver. But what mattered the most was Grosjean’s shunt. Fernando was just a passenger.

  108. Warren Groenewald says:

    Can. Worms. Opened.

  109. Andre says:

    So there is a marshal waving a green flag before the overtake, what is there to investigate? In that case it was a legitimate pass.

  110. we want the truth says:

    You would think that with all of the large bright yellow lights, plus on dash yellow LEDs, it would be obvious to the driver what the real status would/should have been in that part of the track.
    Do you think the green flag from a Marshall would be a mistake in that last section of yellow status track?

  111. Jay Bopara says:

    Many incidents throughout the year have been “investigated after the race”, I’m surprised this was treated differently.

  112. Wingers says:

    The screenshot is not doctored… I watched that last night from a recording I made of the race live.

    It’s from the preceding lap, where Vettel passes Pic. Which appears to be a pass started in yellow zone, but completed in Green. Where is the distinction.

    In fact all of Vettel’s passes, given the speed they were going, in slippery tricky conditions are Really close to being if not in, yellow zones a tenth of a second after or before.

    To me a yellow light flashing ahead should not encourage a lunge past to get into the zone perhaps just ahead only to end up spinning off into a Marshall on track due to this overcommit. Use the HRT pass as example, in his haste to pass he easily could have slipped off track while getting offline to comple his pass?

    The fact that there are numerous videos that are so marginal only adds to the case, and Ferrari are right to be interested in the debate that is raging. Whether they take it further or not will be telling, as I agree, they won’t unless they are absolutely convinced there is a case…

    Interesting 24 hours ahead

    1. Zephyr says:

      You are right about the overtake of Vettel to Narain Karthikeyan, it was against the spirit of the rule, that is, the safety of the drivers.

  113. Josh says:

    It does appear to be a green flag but why didn’t the dash lights go off. It would be wrong to take the championship off Vettel now and I don’t think Alonso would want to win like that. As the race finished under safety car, surely you couldn’t give out a 20 sec penalty.

  114. Duke22 says:

    Not only is it clear that there was a Marshall waving a green flag on the tower, but at 1:07 on the video (just before the pass) the lights on the track (left) switched to green too. Very clear if you stop the video at 1:07 and go to full screen mode.

  115. Leo says:

    James I have reviewd th evideo showing 2 legitimate passes by Vettel and the third on a Torro Rosso definitely illegal.
    What happens now ???

  116. JB says:

    http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/2012/11/case-closed.html

    The marshal was waving green on the left side as shown on outside camera. Vettel already passed that flag before overtaking.

    The dashboard indicator on his car still showing yellow but flag takes precedence over dash info.

    Note the page also show a map of the flag marshal locations which helps to understand the situation.

    This is just another Ferrari/Alonso fans wishful thinking. LOL

  117. Chapor says:

    As much as I didn’t want Vettel to win it, he did, and that’s that. I also don’t think that it was an illegal pass. Even though I would have wanted it to be… But that is not the way for Alonso to take the title. That title would be tarnished forever.

    1. Kay says:

      MSC’s several titles were tanished, don’t think he cared one bit :D

  118. Panagiotis says:

    No no no no just bury it 6 feet under, we might end up with “the robbed championship”. I have settled my mind loosing it but I can understand that we are talking about business corporations and getting number 1 on the car takes you beyond prestige; to sponsors, exposure and other money related matters and that’s a lot of money involved – even if your firm is called Ferrari.

  119. Paul Keane says:

    Hmm, I thought this may come up. I remember hearing Brundle mention it during the race too. However, I thought it was coming up the hill after the Juncao corner and it was someone else (though I could be wrong).

    While they might come under fire for enforcing the penalty late, is it not better to still do the ‘right thing’ instead of coming under more slack for appearing to not do anything at all?

    Also, who are we kidding, part of their defence will probably be aided by Toro Rosso saying they let him past (sister team and all)

    Or, I’m completely wrong :)

    Paul

    1. Zephyr says:

      Sister teams are not allowed to cooperate.

  120. Paul says:

    I think for the good of the sport, some common sense needs to prevail.

    1. There is a green flag, so there is enough reasonable doubt which should be given to the driver.

    2. It did not materially affect the outcome of the race, even if he’d been given a drive through penalty.

    3. There is little a driver can do if the car in front backs off. We’ve had these debates before when a driver loses it on the safety car – at what point are the cars behind no longer obliged not to pass?

    Both Alonso and Vettel made it a fantastic championship, and to decide the title itself several days later on the strength of something so debatable would just put F1 back into absurdity.

    I hope that Ferrari don’t push this one… it’s not the way to win championships. Vettel came from last after what could have been a race-ending accident, with car damage, in very tricky conditions. It was a classic finale, and I don’t think it will do any credit to Alonso if it gets overturned on some technicality.

  121. F1fan4life says:

    I hope it gets reviewed and he loses the title. No crime with that. In my opinion Vettel has been lucky to escape any review for his collisions in 2 of the last 3 races. It occurred to me during the final race, at one point, there would never be a chance of him being overtaken because the two cars behind him were Torro Rossos. In effect he had 2 friendly team mates behind him, a team mate who would drop out in front of him and even the ridiculous Schumacher that moved aside to let home through. If that presents itself as no conflict of interest I don’t know what is. There shouldn’t be any link of management between two teams. FIA are too cowardly to right Vettel’s wrongs anyway so nothing will happen.

    1. James Allen says:

      That’s not the point, is it?

      You have to judge each issue on its own merits. In this case, there’s no case to answer.

      1. Stephen Taylor says:

        What if the flag signal given was incorrect?

      2. Miha Bevc says:

        Then this is marshals (and therefore FIA’s) fault, not Vettel’s.

      3. F1fan4life says:

        Your right that my statement has nothing to do with the topic James. I feel it should be reviewed and if the overtake was green, then congrats. If it was yellow then by all means take it from him. My point earlier was simply that while watching the race I realized there would be no threat from anyone around Vettel…in total 3 drivers. Schumacher became 4th for whatever reason. I don’t think that’s really in the spirit of competition. I believe teams should be truly separate. Surely I can’t be the only one that feels teams should not collude with other teams in a sport…

    2. Phil says:

      You think Sauber wouldn’t play exactly the same role for Ferrari? They didn’t in 1997 Jerez and 2003 Monza when backmarkers…

      1. JimmiC says:

        Norberto Fontana said in an interview that Ferrari leaned on Sauber to hold up Villeneuve during the latter races of ’97*. If RBR are using Toro Rosso, they aren’t doing anything new.

        *In the interests of journalistic balance, it has been denied by Peter Sauber…

      2. Phil says:

        Was agreeing with it. Its all a question of degree, in that what WIlliams did with McLaren at Jerez 1997 was pretty dodgy and I wouldn’t want to see that, and the question of the Schumacher thing was getting along to that route.

        But where do you stop it? It was said that Ralf would have helped Michael (but given Ralf’s driving it was normally the opposite that was the case…). You can’t ban brothers or strong friendships in F1 though, just got to be sensible about it all / how overt it is.

    3. AENG says:

      Remember #call – I’m much quicker than him;
      and how many times Massa’s pace of technics have been sacrificed for “quicker brother” this year.

    4. Andrew M says:

      I agree. The FIA shouldn’t be there to enforce the rules, they should interfere in race results based on who people think *should* be the champion.

  122. Ted the Mechanic says:

    What is the yellow flag procedure? Is the dashboard yellow light on for the whole lap as long as there are yellow flags out somewhere on the circuit? Or does it just come on in the yellow flag part of the track and then go out when you pass the incident? Vettel only passes Vergne once he has seen the green flag waving. Clarification of the rules and correct operation of the yellow lights and green flags is required.
    I imagine Ferrari will not want to protest to avoid negative public backlash, especially if there’s a chance the FIA will re-open the case. However, I’m sure they will be lobbying Jean Todt and Co. very hard to do so…

  123. Tank says:

    What exactly is the point of the flag marshals if the racers are supposed to follow the lights.

    Vettel is saved by the (actual) green flag and I for one am relieved because it would be a damn mess if it wasn’t there. As for the yellow lights on his dash, well… Automated LED’s vs human waving a flag. There was no marshal on track there and the straight was safe.

    1. James Allen says:

      Other way around. First signal takes precedence

      1. Zephyr says:

        Are you sure of that?

  124. erik says:

    This sort of Ferraris moves has been going on all year long allready. If this is the sort of game FIA wants f1 to be, then i just hope that Red Bull will get their act together and understand that results depends, how you manipulate the judges, not how good you are on the track.

  125. erik says:

    I´m sure Red Bull has to take a very close look to Alonsos race and they will do magic inside the rules too.
    It all can go very ugly very quickly, because i think there has been some sort of silent agreement among the teams, where is the line, you don`t cross, fighting for championships.
    For me , there is still point for cheering for someone. But i will not go to court to cheer for someone. I do that in my everyday life allready.

  126. Kay says:

    Not really concerned about the results here, imo if Vettel has taken the title then congrats to him and that’s fine by me as an Alonso fan.

    Just curious though, has FIA ever in the past reversed a race outcome/decision on a championship decider before?

    1. Joe B says:

      Technically, Schumacher didn’t even place in ’97, but that was a more cut and dried case…

  127. Vipin says:

    If Vettel was not penalised, then why F1 have rules made by FIA.

    Anyone can overtake anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances. No Rules.

    Is that is the point made by everyone who’s commenting not to open this matter again?

    OR

    RULES are just simply to keep in books not to use them. And if someone asks, we can also say, “We have RULES.”

    1. JCA says:

      If a green flag was waved, then the pass is legal, flags are official, lights are a guide, no grand conspiracy in evidence.

  128. this is a no brainer. lights on the dashboard are pretty conclusive. yellow zone passing equals penalty. end of story.

  129. Mitchel says:

    Well, surely they can’t change the result now?

    Maybe someone’s mentioned it already, but Hamilton was in the same position in 2007, with the fuel irregularities of a couple (or 3?) cars ahead of him which would have given him the championship over Kimi. That was probably a stronger case then this one!

    What bugs me is that it’s pretty difficult for Vettel to finish outside the top 7, given that Red Bull race with 4 cars and Schumacher gifted him a position.

    I’m no Ferrari fan, but at least their teamwork is reasonably transparent.

  130. Duke22 says:

    Green flag waived – very clear. Case closed. Alonso a very poor loser, especially considering his comments 2007 comment on McLaren appeal post race.

    1. Nick4 says:

      Is there a direct quote from Alonso saying that he wants an investigation? If none, it is hearsay and he is being branded a poor loser unfairly. The general sentiment from this blog is that Vettel should retain his WC, irrespective of the evidence and hopefully Ferrari will let it drop so as not to tarnish itself. However, the FIA have to give a statement as the story is out there now, so one way or the other a ruling has to be made. The ball is in the FIA’s court and these are the rules they laid down.

      1. Antti says:

        Alonso sent a twitter message that has been interpreted as him pursuing an investigation and overturn of results.

      2. Rach says:

        His twitter only in Spanish. Alonso has lost a lot of goodwill in the last 2 weeks.

  131. Chapor says:

    Ha! I got it, Since the title will be tarnished either way now, take it away from Alonso and Vettel and give it to the next guy… Kimi! Everyone likes Kimi! :-P

    “Leave me alone, I know how to win championships myself…”

    1. Kay says:

      Ah.. so THAT’S the way LOL :D :D :D

      AHahhahaH

      Now Kimi will be the one who’s laughing from all this ahhaha…

  132. Mario says:

    How can you possibly tell that that’s a green flag from that video? I set the quality to HD and watched it in full screen. I can’t tell what is the color of the waved flag, it might just as well have been yellow.

    Also, this business with waving green flags by mistake has happened before in Monaco a few years back when Michael passed Fernando when the race finished under safety car. I think the FIA said the green flags were a mistake and penalized Michael.

    1. Chapor says:

      You just made a very valid point there… Hmmmm…

    2. Kay says:

      Nice reminder.

  133. Matt Aucott says:

    I think if there is any doubt here, then they cannot and must not change the result. What I find more amazing is how Vettel managed to pass not only Vergne under yellows, but also Kobayashi later in the race? I don’t know how he missed both with yellow lights on his wheel?

  134. Dmitry says:

    Ohhhh, “flag-gate”!

    To make things exciting and controversial once again I would have given Vettel a penalty…

    but I don’t believe it will happen, as F1′s credibility will be hard hit by this and angry rant will strech for months! And nobody wants that.

  135. AENG says:

    Looks quite much like to the end of 2007 when Ron complains to fuel temperature on several cars not matching FIA limits.
    and by the way it was on sunday after final racing day :)

  136. Snobben says:

    If there was a marshal waving a green flag, which I believe was the case, then the Vettel overtake will be deemed legal since he and RBR will defend themselves on that. It is interesting though that Vettel went for the overtake despite the yellows still being on his dash though. In the end, the yellows were waved because of the Maldonado crash in that corner so it is logical to think that the Marshal would wave a green for the following straight (were the track was clear).

    This does really reflect bad on FIA and their organizations on the tracks. The flag/light posts should be syncronized to avoid this kind of controversy.

    1. Mike Paterson says:

      I think the lights )and indeed the marshalls posts) are positioned where they are most likely to be seen from a driver’s perspective.

      There is no point having a repeater light opposite a marshall post if it ic unlikely to be seen.

  137. james, could you please clear up some possible ambiguity ref the yellow lights on the steering wheel. do they definitely signify the current ‘flag status’ and do they appear on either side of a written word ‘flag’.

    some people are stating that the ‘yellow lights’ are not indicative of the track status but are indicators of the DRS zone!!!

    could you please help me out here, many thanks

    1. James Allen says:

      It’s on a loop, so the lights cannot go out until he passes the next loop.

      However the flag is the important thing

  138. Elie says:

    James this is the best clip Ive seen on the subject . The one you show is a legal pass.

    http://youtu.be/Yu61dlRMS5o. The only questions that remain:- – was there a Marshall waiving a green flag just prior the Yellow light & Does that take precedence over the track lights- it’s not visible in this photo. As a result how’s a driver to know how to react- I don’t think anything further will come of it, however it’s important for F1 that the FIA clarifies what happened.

    1. James Allen says:

      Yes, it takes precedence over the lights. The FIRST signal is the important one i.e. the flag

      1. Elie says:

        Thanks mate just couldn’t see it in the video. But Im guessing that the stewards would have got direction from the marshals on this in the first instance- & why it has not been challenged. Either way I think there is enough Internet traffic on this for the FIA issue a clarification statement.

  139. PK says:

    There won’t be a change to the result.

    Remember Monaco 2010 when Michael Schumacher overtook Alonso on the last corner under GREEN flags and got penalised…the verdict was the marshals made a mistake.

    What a loan of rubbish that was…

    1. Athanasios says:

      + 1

    2. iceman says:

      Yes I think that incident demonstrated that what the rules say is not of primary importance. The FIA will interpret them in whatever way fits the “right” or most politically convenient conclusion.

    3. Steve says:

      The issue there was that by the letter of the safety car restart rules at the time Michael was actually in the right, but they determined it was against the spirit/intent of the rules and then changed them :P.

  140. Sanjog says:

    Gonna be hugely damaging to the sport if there are any reversals… In my opinion, there is enough evidence to support Seb’s pass on JEV..the marshal waving the green is proof enough to allow full racing speed and overtaking. I guess this is a last ditch effort by Ferrari.. has Luca been in touch with Bernie lately

  141. PK says:

    James,

    Are you really ahead of the curve or is Autosport really behind it? No mention of this story there…

    (I guess this is why I’ve had your website at the top of my “F1″ favourites since your first day)

    1. James Allen says:

      I don’t know.

      But I suspect that there is not going to be anything arising from this

      1. Chapor says:

        There is a surprising lack of stories on this matter on a lot of websites. And most of the stories on news websites are only broadly touching the subject. The only proper analysis from a journalistic viewpoint is on this site.

      2. unF1nnished Business says:

        It’s not that surprising because it’s not really a story. Green flag was out and that takes precedence over lights – end of.

  142. Jonathan says:

    Is it too late to award the 1994 WDC to Damon Hill? Video evidence clearly shows MSC causing an avoidable collision.

    I also heard rumours that Alain Prost is thinking about lodging an appeal over 1990…

  143. Richard says:

    Well this sort of thing brings the sport into disrepute, and what driver would really want the championship under these circumstances. The fault is with the policing of the race on the day, and now the FIA need to look very carefully at the evidence to establish exactly what occurred with undisputable evidence. Most likely it will depend if the green flag is actually present and is visible to Vettel at the time he passed Vergne. If not then the 20 second penalty should be imposed, and of course that will give the championship to Alonso.

  144. Speedyjam says:

    I really do think that nothing should happen post race 3 days later to effect the WDC. It would be yet another FIA bad decision. BUT, when will the FIA step up and be in control. Brazil quali is very tight, so in their wisdom, a guy in a blue shirt points with his hand a small red light at time it normally doesn’t take place – eg when the driver is concentrating on Q2 and changing tyres etc for a 2nd run. Penalty guaranteed. Possible overtake of under yellow flags – ignored. Is it not time the FIA was less of “mates” club on race days and shaped up to a modern authority that can know to the split second a driving infringes the rules …. I do want the FIA to investigate the result, I would like them to know at the time. To the TV viewer, Race Control looks like a couple of retired mates in blue shirts watching the race …..

  145. Morten says:

    As a fan of the sport, rather than a team or driver,

    there would certainly be a lot of unwanted attention, but I for one do not believe the sport would be ruined because of a potentialle overturned result.

    I can appreciate that in a complex sport as F1, with so many things happening at the same time, not all of what happens come to the stewards attention. We have before seen precedent cases of post-race punishements applied as new evidence has come to light. Although I cannot recall any post-last-season-race verdicts.

    If a decision should be made which would overturn the championship result, that would be very unfortunate, but the sport would live on.

    After all, what is the FIA to do, now the thing has come to light. They can’t say “we’ll not look into it” – that would make them look as if they don’t care about the rulebook. And they can’t say “we saw it but the season’s over, so we won’t do anything about it” – that too would tarnish the season. A clear-cut and rule-abiding championship decision must be reached.

    It’s unfortunate timing that the incident took place in the last race of the season, but such are the circumstances and the FIA has no choice but to deal with it, if it progresses.

  146. wiz says:

    Just typical of bad losers Ferrari and Alonso clutching at straws! Pathetic! Just grow some balls and accept that you lost!

    1. Chris says:

      Here here!

      Pipe down and man up

  147. The_hulk says:

    Hi James, What about Vettel’s pass on kobayashi. He didn’t leave a car space when passing in turn 5….

  148. Nobu says:

    James, as much as I respect your work and regard it highly, the title of this entry is a little too “controversial”, don’t you think?

    I also see that you’ve added additional commentary to clarify your position:

    “This flag is what Vettel would have acted on and for that reason, it is very unlikely that this will be re-opened.”

    Thanks for that, although this topic seems to continue to give those who have an agenda an opportunity to cry foul.

    Perhaps you can use your influence to get a definitive answer from FIA so that we can put this matter to rest and get back to enjoying reliving the greatest moments from 2012.

    1. James Allen says:

      No, the title asks the one central question

      And the post answers it.

  149. Dave Deacon says:

    I think they should investigate and find him guilty. His move was begun under a yellow flag, he sped up not down, and then copmpleted near to its end. If safety is to mean anything, then it must be upheld and espcially so in such circumstances: how can you reward someone so highly who behaves so low? Great message to the world of ‘convenient standards’. If this is left, then F1 is simply corrupt. I don’t like FA or Ferrari but SV is caught red handed here.

    1. Steve says:

      Don’t see the green flag before he pulls out to overtake I guess?

    2. Rach says:

      If you watch the video you see that Vettel passed after he went past a green flag.

      Vettel is completely innocent and Ferrari are sore losers. Very disappointed in this whole episode as it has created views like yours that are really unfair on Vettel.

  150. Siobhan says:

    1st time here but had to comment.. Looked at the following video (over take on J-EV), pause at 19 second, before Vettel overtakes, lights on steering wheel is yellow but the light on track ahead is green (can confirm when you play video right to the end). Vettel did not make the pass under track yellow. Hope this is cleared up and people stop calling Vettel a cheat. It will ruin the end of the most exciting season in years

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeNvmPcNlwI

  151. JimmiC says:

    I don’t think Vettel has a case to answer but even if he did, the retrospective punishment nearly a week after the end of the championship would be ridiculous. IF there was an infringement then the officials take the blame for missing it and the investigations begin into how best to signal to drivers about hazards and what failings caused the infringement to be missed. Someone has already made the footballing analogy – you can’t award a team a win based on a foul that was missed and a penalty that may or may not have been the match winner.

  152. Andy Bird says:

    There appears to be some doubt about whether Vettel committed a yellow flag offence or not. Even if an offence was committed, the result of the championship should be unchanged because it is quite clear that Alonso did commit a yellow flag offence

    Looking at the world feed at the start of lap 5, the yellows are out on the entry to turn 1 (the Senna S) due to the retrieval of Maldonado’s car, and yet Alonso makes a mistake under braking and leaves the racetrack.

    All of the cars around him (Hamilton & Button ahead and Hulkenburg, Webber & Massa behind) made it safely through the same corner, so it is a clear case of Alonso failing to slow sufficiently under yellow flag conditions.

  153. Shane Govern says:

    There is enough evidence to penalise Vettel 3 times over in this race. First he ran into a fellow driver on the first lap (no penalty given), then the vergne incident which is more debatable however did Vergne go to racing conditions when he saw the ‘green’ flag, what about the other drivers or was it just Seb who benefited from the lone marshall. What about the yellow flag at the end of the straight which was clearly visable before seb made the move, should he not have backed off and tried the move under safer conditions…that would have been the sportsmanlike move. He could have got passed every car on that track twice over but he chose to take advantage where other drivers were racing under caution (2nd incident, NO penalty). Lastly the move on Kamiu at the end, again debatable as the flags appear to have changed but again Seb looked very racy under ‘caution’ flags in the preceeding corners, were the other drivers doing the same or did seb again use the momentum to gain a place.

    There is more than enough evidence to hand seb a penalty here. 2 wrongs dont make a right, nor does 3!!

    I would urge Ferrari to appeal!

    1. James says:

      The collision with Senna went down as a racing incident as 99% of first lap incidents do.

      The overtake on Vergne is clearly under green flag conditions – http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif

      Vettel overtook Kobayashi twice in the race, both time under yellow/red ‘slippery surface’ flags, NOT yellow flags. Both these overtakes were entirely legal.

      1. Shane Govern says:

        James,

        Vettel turned in on him, that isnt a racing incident with the greatest of respects. ‘causing an avoidable accident’ is a penalty…as demonstrated with the force india car later in the race.

        I can’t see the green flag in the video you pointed me too. I must be short sighted like a million others. The ‘other’ video definately shows no green flag. Whatever the scenario that prevails, Vettel was too ‘racy’ for the conditions!

        I didn’t say Vettel overtook under yellows, i said he was racy under yellow flags and probably gained momemtum from that ; )

  154. Panayiotis says:

    As much as I would like Alonso to win, this is not the way to do it. So yes bury this for the sake of the sport’s image.

    However, it really makes one wonder where is the sport heading? Is the image bigger than the sport? Do we have to sacrifice everything on the altar of public image? Because it appears that Vettel’s move was indeed illegal. This should have been dealt with during the race though. Not only to avoid the criticism or retro-acting, but also to allow the driver to fight back after his penalty.

    The inconsistency of the stewards is really annoying, and this damages the sport above everything. And inconsistency not only from race to race but also during the same race. Like Hulk getting penalised for taking out Hamilton and Vettel NOT penalised for taking out Senna.

    I think Ferrari should say they are not interested in a championship like this, and give an end. However FIA should really look into the system to try and find some consistency. Is it that difficult?

  155. Derek A. says:

    On lap 2 when Alonso outbraked himself, was that under a yellow flag…?

  156. Kay says:

    I recall 2008 Spa, Kimi vs Lewis, the race result was overturned due to Lewis not ‘pulling back enough’ after his illegitimate overtake. As Kimi was already out of the race before the end, Massa ended up lucky and took the win instead.

    Not the same case, I know, but just saying… results CAN be overturned when necessary.

  157. Matt Larkin says:

    The marshal certainly seems to be waving a green flag, so Vettel should be in the clear. However, I think the FIA should look at making the electronic “flags” correspond with the marshalling stations; its clear that the yellow flashing “flag” was on, and part of the confusion is that the next green electronic flag is some way down the straight. Had there been an electronic flag over the marshal’s post there would be both the opportunity to see it clearly on the TV footage, but more importantly to also have the time-stamped recording of when the light was switched to green etc. No way Vettel will (or should) lose his championship because of this).

  158. Steve says:

    I’m struggling to understand why there is any confusion here.

    Vettel passes Yellow Light board – No Overtaking
    Vettel passes Green Flag – Overtaking allowed
    Vettel overtakes Vergne – Legal

    The flags are the official track condition indicators, light boards and in-car lights are an additional aid.

    Anyone who reads the rules will undertand

  159. Richard D says:

    I’ve watched that video a number of times but can’t see a green flag.

    The only thing that is clear to me over this is that there needs to be better co-ordination between the flags and the lights. Flags remain the official signal with lights only supplementary. However, the lights are many times more visible to the drivers than flags. I don’t know how they operate the lights in Brazil, but here for the BGP there are separate flag marshals operating the flags and the lights. This means that there are separate decisions being made for flag and light. I wouldn’t want to see lights replace flags as light systems can, and do, fail. I have at least once had to scrape around for things like bin liners to cover up defective lights that have stuck on and couldn’t be overridden! It wouldn’t take too much inovation to come up with a solution that would automatically trigger the correct light to match the flag.

    1. James says:

      http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif

      Richard here is slow motion footage of the green flag.

    2. Hung says:

      Watch this
      http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij_comparacion-gif-vs-oficial-fia_sport

      The green flag is clearly shown on the GIF but NOT in the VIDEO

    3. Anne says:

      I watched it and it´s there. Keep you eyes on the left side of the screen. The tower can be seen very clear. In a fraction of a second you see a figure(possibly a man)there waving something at Vettel. Maybe the man is waving his underwear but he is waving something.We need a close up of that tower

  160. erik says:

    Another view here. Sennas death has been a reason, why safety became very important. Since then, allmost every aspect regarding safety has changed. So many rules in terms of racing and in terms of building a car. Of course, this is good, when leaving friday, you can come back in sunday evening. But guys go out there to race. To be the champ.
    ACTUALLY I THINK, THAT IT IS HARDER TO FINISH THE RACE, WITHOUT BRAKING ANY RULES…, THAN REALLY TO WIN THE RACE.
    And Ferrari understands this. So, it seems they are exploiting that this year big time.For me, it goes down to common sence now, because i afraid they all can find something to accuse. You have to ask, what would senna do?

  161. Jenks says:

    I think Alonso needs to get all of the facts before he starts talking about rules and miracles, considering his record with team scandals.

    1. Nick4 says:

      I haven’t seen a single statement by Alonso yet! How can you conclude that he has got his facts wrong when there isn’t a statement? According to the BBC Ferrari have simply asked for clarification and guidance for the future. Seems reasonable.

      1. Jenks says:

        Sorry, my comment was in response to Alonso’s “Samurai” Tweet on the 27th “No tengo milagros, Yo hago de las leyes correctas mis milagros”.

  162. What this does do is highlight exactly how much drivers back off under yellow flag conditions. Both Alonso and Vettel were clearly travelling too fast for the conditions through turns 1 and 2 despite the yellow flag zone – Alonso missed his braking and took the run-off, while Vettel had a huge slide as seen from the on-board.

    The flags are there for the safety of drivers, as there may be debris in the track, and of course marhsals and medical staff, who may be working trackside of the safety barriers. Simply “not overtaking” doesn’t cover the requirement to drive without competing.

    There was some talk of “giving the place back”, which is the accepted means of avoiding a penalty when an infringement happens. Personally I don’t think you SHOULD be able to avoid a penalty for ignoring yellows simply by lifting and giving the place back. That’s fine for overtakes outside the white line or whatever, but provides no incentive to observe the safety element of a yellow flag.

    The outgoing permanent doctor, Gary Hartstein, has been particularly vocal about the safety of medical staff after incidents in lower formula races and national championships. F1, as the category with the most exposure, has to set the standard for these races.

  163. Darren says:

    Just recalling this from memory so may not be right.. But, remember back to 2010 when Schumacher overtook Alonso on the last lap at the last corner after the safety car pulled in. Was the issue there not that a green flag was displayed even though there should not have been? Sounds similar to this. Schumacher received a 25s penalty.

    I don’t think the championship should be resolved like this though, I think issues like this if not caught during the race should be left. It would be very harsh on Vettel, if he had received a penalty during the race he would have pushed harder to catch up again rather than settle for 7th like he did. Much as I would have loved Alonso to win the title, this is not the way to do it. As others have said we will have to wait for Ferrari International Assistance to give their verdict…

    1. Steve says:

      The issue there resulted from the rules around the safety car restart line (and more importantly the regulations that put the restart before the start finish line) and they were changed as a result to avoid it happening again.

  164. Luca says:

    Well now the whole world as reviewed it, it is only right and proper the governing body should do so and announce a ruling. It should do so in its own time and it should not be for Ferrari to lodge a complaint.

    1. Siobhan says:

      FAI have reviewed and there is nothing to answer for. Autosport have the update on this and a number of teams stating there was a marshal with green flag there before Vettel overtook.

  165. Tim says:

    I´m a Hamilton/Hulk Fan (yeah i know Brazil was very tongue in cheek for me). But as neither fan of Vet/Alo (full respect to them both though) i would say nothing illegal about the move so move on 2013! Should be even more exciting than this year

    1. Tim says:

      Don’t you think the FIA should make an official comment to put it to rest?

      Tim (The Genuine Article)

  166. Andrew says:

    I can’t believe people are still talking about this. It’s time to move on.

  167. chow says:

    What a fuss this? On the one hand there is clear green flag and on the other, the yellow signal(not very clear) on dashboard. Benefit should go to the driver overtaking. Would Ferrari want to win Championship through backdoor? I don’t think they will pursue this route. And it is not clear that it was only yellow flags. So let bygones be bygones and move on.

  168. Grant says:

    Embarassing or not, rules are there for a reason and should applied with fear or favour.
    Otherwise why have them?

  169. rajdeep says:

    In my opinion, the talk of the “title should be decided on track” is what let the Armstrong saga to continue. What happened in cycling (media and/or UCI collusion) should not be happening in F1 as well. The title in any sport should be won legally – not by EPO or passing under yellows.

    As for the incident itself, the onboard and light systems are clear enough to justify the penalty. However, there could be a mitigating circumstance of a marshall’s green flag. I’m not sure who has the burden of proof – Ferrari to prove that no mitigating circumstance exists, or RB that a mitigating circumstance exists.

  170. P Alliot says:

    The most interesting thing is that my original, simple observation on the 27th that SV had passed JEV under yellow, posted here on JA (comment 17) with Youtube link:
    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/when-planning-goes-out-of-the-window-and-reacting-is-everything/
    was picked up by so many online enthusiasts and debated, showing what huge support and interest F1 encourages worldwide.
    Within minutes of Andrew Benson putting a story on the BBC front page on 28th at 21:50 (Ferrari consider Vettel protest – with no firm evidence Ferrari were involved at all) Sky Sports had a similar story online (Ferrari consider appeal – again, with no evidence anyone at Ferrari had been consulted). The only firm evidence of any official intervention was that the relevant Youtube footage has been removed “due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management.”
    The power of social media … and how it has influenced mainstream journalism.

    1. Scott says:

      Influenced for the better? After all this is a storm in a tea cup based on a complete non-issue.

  171. Yury says:

    Alonso have said in 2007:

    Speaking after news of the investigation into the BMWs and Williams broke, Alonso said Formula One’s reputation would be damaged if Raikkonen lost the title because Hamilton was retrospectively promoted to fourth.

    “It would be a joke, and we’ve had too many already,” he told Spanish radio station Cadena Ser. “If something like that happened, it would end up burying the sport.”

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581

    Now he’s changed his opinion? LOL

    1. Webbo says:

      He didn’t wanted Lewis to become the youngest WDC ever. He wanted to keep that record. Now he doesn’t want Sebastian to become the youngest triple WDC ever. He wants that record for himself.

  172. NotGood says:

    The green flag obviously gave Vettel the right to overtake.

    The question is, when the FIA decide where to put the lights, why did they put the light so far away from the marshal post. Is there any logic to that whatsoever, or is just designed to be confusing?

  173. zx6dude says:

    I hope Fernando doesn’t become world champion like this. It was a great season, it would be a shame to finish it like this…

  174. KT says:

    It’s clear that the flag being waved is green. Also, as Vettel turns onto the Reta Oposta straight, there is a green light flashing on the right-hand side, and there is a green light at the end of the straight too. It is a legal overtake.

  175. Rach says:

    This is a non-issue. It is clear that Vettel passes a green waved flag by the pit exit.

    Where this becomes an issue is for Alonso to be tweeting about it and trying to make it an issue. I have always defended Alonso even to my wife when Massa was demoted in Austin. I told her it was a team sport and that Felipe was probably not going to lose that much as he would now be on the clean side too. I also said that Ferrari’s priority is Alonso and they should do it.

    However, this is another level and really is desperation as even a fan like me can clearly see that there is a green flag and then look at the rules and see that what Vettel did was fine. What is Alonso actually doing here by trying to protest, I’m really disappointed – he looks like a desperate child who will do anything to win?

    1. Enrique says:

      Rach,
      would you change your opinion if we were informed that in fact the marshall waving the green flag was in fact indicating that the pit lane exit was open?

      1. Rach says:

        He wasn’t and your reply is as desperate as Alonso himself!!

  176. Enrique says:

    James,
    I had there is more evidence that everybody seems to have overlooked.
    I had opportunity to review the data using hhe F1 2012 timing app (official). The app provides live coverage, sector & lap time, etc. It also provides GPS position and live info on track contions over a dynamic map of the circuit. Reviewing the Interlagos data (you can also download it after the race) you get more evidence that Vettel overtook under yellow flags. On lap 3 only turns 2 and 3 show as yellow, consistent with the marshall waving a green flag. On lap four the straight between turns 3 and 4 is also yellow, which turns back to normal a few seconds after the drivers covered that section. At the begining of that stretch Vettel was behind, at the end of the yellow section he was ahead of Vergne. If the app is propery syncronised (and thats what it claims) it is clear that Vettel overtook under yellow flags.

  177. Enrique says:

    James,
    I believe there is more evidence that everybody seems to have overlooked.
    I had opportunity to review the data using hhe F1 2012 timing app (official). The app provides live coverage, sector & lap time, etc. It also provides GPS position and live info on track contions over a dynamic map of the circuit. Reviewing the Interlagos data (you can also download it after the race) you get more evidence that Vettel overtook under yellow flags. On lap 3 only turns 2 and 3 show as yellow, consistent with the marshall waving a green flag. On lap four the straight between turns 3 and 4 is also yellow, which turns back to normal a few seconds after the drivers covered that section. At the begining of that stretch Vettel was behind, at the end of the yellow section he was ahead of Vergne. If the app is propery syncronised (and thats what it claims) it is clear that Vettel overtook under yellow flags.

    1. Antti says:

      The thing is, the ultimate authority on the track conditions are the marshals waving flags. Not lights on the steering wheel or colors on official timing app. Since the marshal waved a green flag, it was ok for Vettel to pass.

      1. Enrique says:

        Antti,
        I think the topic is confussion to say the least. I agree you can not penalise a driver if you are giving him mixed signals. However, not sure if true, but just read somewhere that the marshal is there signaling that the pit lane exit is open! if that is the case Vettel should have known better and the whole thing would be crystal clear. would you agree with that?
        James, any way it could be clarified if the Marshal in that position is controlling the pit lane exit?

  178. Rang says:

    James, not sure if you have replied to this question already, anyway will read the comments once again. You say green flag means danger zone has ended, but the yellow lights are still flashing, technically is that not a problem for Red Bull? Or was there an error from stewards to have two contradicting things.

  179. Yury says:

    German Auto-motor-und-sport says they have asked Whiting and the answer was:

    Hierzu sagen laut Whiting die Regeln: “Wenn die Ampeln nicht an den Flaggenposten installiert sind, dann gilt für den Fahrer das erste Signal, das gezeigt wird. Wird also eine gelbe Flagge geschwenkt und etwas später blinkt die Ampel gelb, dann beginnt das Überholverbot bereits bei der Flagge. Umgekehrt gilt das auch für grünes Licht. In Vettels Fall wurde zwischen der letzten gelben Ampel und der grünen Ampel eine grüne Flagge geschwenkt. Der Abstand beträgt hier 350 Meter. Vettel hat auf die Flagge reagiert und alles richtig gemacht.”
    http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/streit-um-gelbe-flaggen-beim-gp-brasilien-fia-haelt-vettels-ueberholmanoever-fuer-legal-6184272.html

    It means Vettel did everything correct. No further actions.

  180. SM says:

    It is interesting to see that the Toro Rosso strategy has backfired RedBull:

    First, Vettel overtook Vergne because he let him pass. Vergne didn’t push as the people in front of him. If Vergne had drived for himself instead of Vettel, the overtake would have been later.

    Second, Toro Rosso didn’t complain during the race, it is obvious the reason. Now, there is no race for recovering.

    It seems that the green flag at left is placed as the exit to the pit lane, and it indicates that the pitlane is open and cars can exit.

    I would be glad if Vettel does not win this championship. He has been “lucky” when he has been in situations were other drivers have been penalized. He races against less cars than other drivers. Also the 7-tittle championship let him pass and recognized it.

    I’m glad that Alonso loose the championship in 2010 behind Petrov, he didn’t let him pass.

    Currently F1 is worse than Pressing Catch.

  181. iceman says:

    Is it true that there is a deadline of November 30 for any action that may overturn the championship result?

  182. David Ryan says:

    According to Autosport, the FIA has said there is “no case to answer” so looks like this is pretty much closed.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

  183. Waseem says:

    Hi James,

    Can you comment on this please or anyone else for that matter ?

    The marshall standing at the end of the pit lane, was he not waving a green flag for cars that are exiting the pit-lane as oppose to the cars on the track ?

    I am sure I have seen in the past that when a car being lapped exists the pit lane, there is a marshall that would show a blue flag, indicating to the driver to basically stay of the racing line ?

    I am a massive Ferrari fan but would rather the championship was decided in Brazil, but at the same time, rules are rules.

  184. Magos says:

    Hi James, I’m from Brazil. Here since Sunday already knew of the controversy and discarded. Tom Kristensen, Race Steward invited spoke with a Brazilian journalist, Rafael Lopes. He said the two overtaking was correct(Ferrari also have asked).Then friday, we will know if Ferrari will actually protest something it already knows!
    Best Regards
    P.S. sorry by the english

  185. Rocky says:

    Hot news: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

    Seems like there is “no case” to answer for in the controversy. Here’s an excerpt:

    “Under the FIA’s rules for the Brazilian GP, if a green flag is displayed before a green light – as it was in Vettel’s case – it is the first green that counts.

    Therefore, the FIA is in no doubt that Vettel’s pass was legitimate, which is why race control was not informed of any potential infringement.”

  186. F12012 says:

    FIA say vettel no case to answer, Ferrari just have to wait till next year

  187. JohnBt says:

    Oh noooo, not again!

    Very simple, FIA just need to issue a statement or report to clear the doubt for all to see. Very sure the marshals would’ve informed the stewards if Vettel passed JEV illegally. But it seems JEV pulled aside to let Vettel pass though, so did MS (nothing to do with yellow flags).

    As a fan of Alonso, I feel it’s eating into him very deeply by now. Don’t blame him, as to miss 3 WDC it’s rather painful.
    More like Nando is pushing for it more the Ferrari

    A marvelous season and to change the final results would be a disaster and a huge joke to FIA and F1.

    [James, can I return the book to you when it arrives, you need to add this chapter. LOL!]

  188. Greg says:

    Lets hope the FIA have some extra filming, I would assume all cameras are recorded even if not selected to be broadcast.

    A rule change needs to happen, the lights are easier to see and it would make sense to drop the flags and have manned lights (both together, so more lights will be needed around the track), if there was ever a fault, then the lights could be turned off manually at either end and then the marshal takes over with a flag.

    Having them seperate from the lights is asking for trouble and we now have it.

  189. Duke22 says:

    Meanwhile Autosport report that the FIA, says there is “no case” to answer in the controversy.

    Formula 1′s ruling body allegedly explained to the publication that: ”the yellow-flag sector at Interlagos started at the light panel just before Turn 3, at marshal sector 3, and ends about 150m before Turn 4, where a green light panel is displayed.”

    And added, “However, there is a marshal’s post in between these two panels and a green flag was being waved there on that lap.”

    “Under the FIA’s rules for the Brazilian GP, if a green flag is displayed before a green light – as it was in Vettel’s case – it is the first green that counts. Therefore, the FIA is in no doubt that Vettel’s pass was legitimate, which is why race control was not informed of any potential infringement,” concluded the report.

  190. Vinto says:

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104645

    Case closed. James – perhaps lock the thread?

  191. Mister Grendel says:

    FIA: “No case to answer”. That should settle it.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644

  192. Robert N says:

    James,

    let’s assume for a moment that VET did pass VER illegally under yellow flags (which as you point out the evidence seems to suggest he did not).

    It would then seem incredibly unfair for VET to lose the WDC almost a full week after the final race of the season. Also the case would very likely be dragged in front of the courts.

    Hence should the FIA rule book be amended to allow retrospective penalties for illegal passes under yellow flags only in cases of gross misconduct (e.g. a competitive overtake near marshals recovering a car)?

    Of course, the stewards can still deal with any tiny infringement they see on the day during the race.

    With the system as it stands it seems to be profitable for teams to go through all the onboard TV material of all of their rivals to try to spot a possible infringement. Would the resultant delayed penalties be really in the sport’s interest?

    Compare this to football where even virtual goals stand despite clear TV evidence.

    Cheers,
    Robert

    1. James Allen says:

      Football is a joke in my opinion – I say that as someone who loves football.

      It ludicrous that goals are allowed to stand which millions of people can see are offside, or there was a handball (e.g. Henry vs Ireland), or a penalty was wrongly given. Football at the highest level often ends up with a wrong result and the game is diminished by it

      F1 is much more sophisticated, because it need to be with 24 points of focus, but on the whole it is “refereed” well

      1. Robert N says:

        I agree that football is a joke at present.

        However, should F1 go to the other extreme?

        Just imagine that Marshall had not waved his green flag that lap. Then VET, for overtaking a slowing VER under yellows on lap 4 of 71 would lose the WDC some 5 days after the final race of the reason.

        Surely neither the FIA nor F1 fans in general could want that?

        In my opinion, there should be a very early cut-off for trivial possible infringements like the one we discuss here. Say midnight on race day.

    2. Phil says:

      “Always make sure that the fans going home knew who won”

      Bill France.

      I think the stewarding has been increasing in its quality in the recent years. What would be good is if the FIA could be faster to react to all of these stories, as with Twitter/Youtube/Blogs etc you end up with 1 Billion Charlie Whiting wannabe’s, most of which are ridiculously biased…

  193. David Goss says:

    Seems to me like Alonso’s mind games on Vettel for 2013 have started early. I approve.

  194. Matt H says:

    As much as i think this is a joke Ferrari appealing they may have grounds:
    Yellow Flag rules :Indicates danger, such as a stranded car, ahead. A single waved yellow flag warns drivers to slow down, while two waved yellow flags at the same post means that drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is prohibited.

    Key point being drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary! Regardless of when the move on vergne took place after or before green flag vettel was hauling ass with kers etc !

    This is not slowing down or maintaining speed preparing to stop, legally Ferrari could question this as in the yellow sector he was clearly increasing speed!

    1. Steve says:

      KERS didn’t engage until he passed the green flag. I am guessing you are yet another winner who refuses to acknowledge the position of the green flag and is instead referring to the green electronic board just after where he overtakes.

  195. Not Again says:

    I think this case shows again, which field needs the biggest investment, that is regulations and stewards/marshals. Forget about the show.

    Vettel overtook a car while going beyond the white line in Abu Dhabi. Perhaps this should be investigated and penalised? If the organizers are too weak to provide synchronized signalling, well, it has nothing to do with the drivers.

  196. Fireman says:

    So, next season looks pretty exiting. Even though Ferrari wasn’t as fast as Red Bull and McLaren in last races, they’ve got a good base to build on for 2013. Also, tires change a little, with wider working window. Any thoughts who’d benefit from the tires most?

    Just to steer the discussion to more interesting topics :)

  197. Spyros says:

    The Sky crew asked SEVERAL Ferrari personnel about this, they said they saw it and decided it was a yellow and striped yellow-red flag being waved anyway, i.e. an oil flag. The lights have no provision for this signal so they were just yellow.

    This was Ferrari’s position, so they had (have?) no intention to do anything about it.

    There is no story here, except for fans desperate to create one.

  198. Joe_in_Miami says:

    James and all, the FIA seems to have preliminarily closed the case on the grounds of a green flag taking precedence over light signals. If that is the case, Alonso and Ferrari should close and look into 2013. BUT, closing a case on the grounds of a very blurry video shot is NOT PROFESSIONAL!!!!! Manipulation is perfectly possible. Look at this video: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvgyij_comparacion-gif-vs-oficial-fia_sport

    Why don’t they show us the instructions to the marshal? Why don’t they make him public?

    And, more important than anything, and no serious journalist has come up with an answer to this question: why on the face of the earth did the TR leave a gap of almost 20 secs behind a SC????? Can we hear those radio transmissions of Scuderia Toro Rosso?

    See? Not so clear my friends

    1. Steve says:

      The problem with that argument is if you set 780p quality on the original video that started this entire storm in a tea cup you could actually see the green flag on it too. It was even pointed out in the comments.

      Or is this a double conspiracy? Was the original video a fake too?

  199. Joe_in_Miami says:

    and I also forgot to mention. Why would the FIA allow green flags when Maldonado’s car was still on the track!!!!!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nyA35Jyy_s

    1. Steve says:

      They generally only yellow flag that sector unless it’s too tricky to clear the debris in which case they bring out the safety car.

      1. joe_in_miami says:

        Again and again and nobody in the world answers this question: “why did the TR leave a gap of 20 seconds”.

        This is the key to this rotten championship. Your silence is clear.

      2. Steve says:

        Sorry I didn’t answer the question you didn’t ask?

      3. Joe_in_Miami says:

        Why did the TR leave a gap of 20 seconds?

  200. John Bentley says:

    Why has FOM suspended viewing of the footage? Do they have something to hide? They should remove the graphic at top left so everyone can clearly see the waved green flag, if it is indeed there…

    1. Joe_in_Miami says:

      They won’t John. They would’ve done it if they knew they were right, as they always do.

      Pure manipulation. Now it is Fernando’d time, tomorrow it will be Lewis. Whoever opposes the big guy.

  201. Matt H says:

    James,

    I’m not sure if I’m the first one to say this but there is precedence for a marshal waving a green flag… Monaco 2010 – Michael Schumacher passed Fernando Alonso under what the FIA intended to be full course yellows but the marshal waved a green flag. Schumacher got a 20 second penalty.

    Not entirely the same situation but if the marshal wasn’t supposed to be waving his flag then Ferrari could build a pretty compelling argument for Vettel receiving a penalty.

    Anyway, my personal view is that the World Championship should be settled on the track. It’s wrong to change the result and would be bad for the sport. Vettel also doesn’t deserve to lose out because of such a tiny error.

    Fernando still deserves the Championship more than Vettel in my eyes and I hope that will be remembered in time… from what I’ve read and heard everyone apart from Vettel, Christian Horner and Vettel’s mum thinks that Fernando Alonso deserved the WDC more on this occasion.

    But Vet is still a worthy champ of course.

    1. Scott says:

      I think Vettel deserved the championship more, and I’m not Vettel, Horner or Vettel’s mum.

      In time, only the winner will be remembered. The losers, no matter how much people think they deserved to win by a set of arbitrary standards, are not.

      1. Matthew says:

        Ok, 4 people then.

        You’re probably right that it will get forgotten.

      2. Brad says:

        Very true Scott

  202. Mike84 says:

    “This video is no longer available due to FOM being like a miserable teacher policing a playground — be a spoiler for no good reason.”

  203. Sarvar says:

    It shows how Vettel’s as fast in reaction as his speed.
    Let the guy enjoy his time during mid-term.

    James will the book involve these behind the scene mind games?

    1. James Allen says:

      A little of that yes

      1. Brace says:

        James’s what’s your opinion regarding this:

        Carl Sheen:
        “I would also question why Vettel was allowed to be pushing so hard within the yellow flag zone to nearly lose the car twice in turns 2 and 3, when the cars in front were driving more carefully.

        He only overtook Vergne by driving recklessly through a yellow flag zone while he was being cautious, I would speculate that in any other race this would be looked at, but in a championship decider, too much is at stake for marshall interruption.”

        Surely it’s not only if he technically nudged his nose in front of Vergne after the green flag point, but he was obviously pushing like hell.

        It leaves a bad taste when you think that Alonso among many drivers lost a decent quali lap in Suzuka because of yellow flags, and even then was obstructed by Vettel in the final chicane. Why was Vettel not punished for that either? I’m sure his engineer knows too well where Alonso is, and still he didn’t pick up the pace. Pit entry was just after chicane, so it’s not like he would have to push for the whole lap to avoid being caught by Alonso.

        I have seen sportsmanship and spirit second to none this year from Alonso, while I have seen some less then honorable episodes from Vettel way before we arrived to Brasil, and I must say it don’t feel right that Vettel won.

        But as I said before, life’s not fair. People like to say that it must be that he was the better driver since he won, because they want to believe that sport is actually perfect and really awards the best, but sadly it isn’t like that. It’s much more complicated and it’s not always fair.

      2. Rockie says:

        This post is comedy at its best.

  204. John Bentley says:

    I’ve now found some enhanced footage that escaped the thought police and can see the flag. But why pull the video? Release the enhanced version and end the controversy!

  205. Bru72 says:

    If it had been noticed during the race, Vettel would’ve got a drive through. It wasn’t noticed, and i don’t think the result should be reviewed. Lucky, you win some, you lose some

    1. Steve says:

      I’m not sure they give drive through penalties for overtaking after a green flag ;).

  206. Ambient Sheep says:

    “This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management”

    They really do shoot themselves in the foot, don’t they? A perfect chance to shut this controversy down before it affects the sport’s reputation any further, but no!

    They could have least waited a few days until news had gotten out before getting it pulled.

    Thankfully the BBC have a copy (complete with highlighted marshal’s post) here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20541589

  207. Hiten says:

    Isnt it common sense that flag overrides a light? Why would a man wave a flag when he knows that color of light that is flashing is different than he is holding in his hand? Simple, to override the lights!! I feel really pity on people asking this question.

  208. Carl Sheen says:

    I would also question why Vettel was allowed to be pushing so hard within the yellow flag zone to nearly lose the car twice in turns 2 and 3, when the cars in front were driving more carefully.

    He only overtook Vergne by driving recklessly through a yellow flag zone while he was being cautious, I would speculate that in any other race this would be looked at, but in a championship decider, too much is at stake for marshall interruption.

    1. Steve says:

      Well it works both ways, Alonso actually did go off a bit under similar conditions and they let it go too.

      Realistically though that rule is mostly regulated by the computers these days (average time over the yellow sections) so for all we know it averaged out to being ok.

      I personally think it’s kind of a bizarre way of doing it (average Vs top speed at any point under yellow) but that’s the way it is.

  209. Anne says:

    LOL!!! Well Alonso doesn´t seem to be very concerned with the flag gate after all. He said in his twetter he´s gone on vacations

    1. M says:

      And have you seen the photo that he put on with this twit? So many beuatiful little yellow lights… LOL!!!! I don’t tnink he has moved on yet.

  210. Loris says:

    No, it will not. It should strip Schumacher for ’94. also then and so on, though it is not comparable since Vettel did not do anything wrong. I don’t think Alonso would have wanted a contoversial title…if there was an error, FIA should think about tuning up the rules, but for the future, not the past.

  211. alam says:

    With Alonso and other top drivers coming close to their retirement age its fascinating to see Ferrari are perusing this which may end up alienating Vettel (the only top young driver) when Alosno leaves.

    Then again there is Hamilton……

    1. Brace says:

      Retirement? Do you realize that Schumacher won his first title of 5 with Ferrari when he was Alonso’s age? And he competed until he was 37. I’m sure Alonso has at least 6-7 years to compete in top form.

      1. alam says:

        Well… unlikely we are going to see Ferrari return to dominance. The momentum is with RedBull now.

        I still find the Perez-Alonso gate incident when he didnt win the race iffy. So although everyone is quick to praise Alonso I am skeptical.

  212. xyler says:

    There was a 10min video at yt, that showed that both discussed overtakes from Vettel were ok.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFER0esu … r_embedded
    It was tweeted by @TheScuderia.
    Because of (C) it es now blocked …

  213. Matt W says:

    Very sad to see Alonso’s comments on Twitter regarding this. He has had a large amount of PR overhaul courtesy of Ferrari these last few years. However his apparent need to take this championship in the courts is incredibly sad.

  214. Benalf says:

    The video was already removed. When reading the flag/lights rules it is clear that the flags have preference over the lights…but the flag status starts past the stewards post tower.

    1. Steve says:

      Right, but he passes the tower with the green flag before he even pulls out let alone passes.

  215. seifenkistler says:

    I would have blackflagged Ferrari for brazil post mortem.

    Massa 5, Alonso 8 at quali, Massa 5 back, …

    There was an effect to the start of the drivers between this places.

    Who was forced to start from 6 instead 7? Can he do a protest still?

    If the Massa/Alonso trick would have only affecred these 2, okay. But it was affecting another team too.

  216. seifenkistler says:

    Was Schumi helping Vettel or…

    … were Schumi’s thoughts: This is my last race. People will ask in a century who was the last person who has overtaken me. Better let it be no nobody, but the second best driver in this race….

    Best would be himself of cause ;)

  217. Craig says:

    I’m not an Alonso or Ferrari fan but I was rooting for him Sunday. I cheered when Vettel was spun. But I agree this is not how a true championship is won. This issue was addressed on Sunday during and after the race and dismissed. Now the FIA is saying the pass looks legal to them. I don’t think there was an issue or is one and it’s sad we are having this discussion.

    Let’s assume Ferrari appealed and won. Has anyone considered how this would look? What a mockery F1 would become. Next year why even have a podium or declare a winner after the race? Surely every team will be scrutinizing all video from every car, angle and location to appeal the slightest discrepancy, not just for the win but to get up to 8th or 9th place. Just declare the results several days later after all the video has been analyzed.

    But the best part is now all the nannies have whipped this into such a frenzy they’ll claim Vettel “stole” the championship, etc. I can’t wait to hear it.

    As I said, I’m not a Ferrari fan, but my suggestion for them and Alonso would be focus on development, building cars and wind tunnels properly from the outset instead of this mindless nonsense. Had they been able to do just a little better job of this in 2012, Alonso would surely be champion and he would have won it on the track.

  218. Anup Kadam says:

    Hi James just watch the video at 11:40 clear cut overtaking under the yellow flags by Vettel on Paul..this time its Force India not Torro rosso…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-O88bMlNYpc

    1. Scott says:

      This is now getting very silly indeed. At 11:30, as Vettel comes out of turn 1, you can clearly see a yellow light that is not flashing: the overtake on the Force India occurs after this in the DRS zone. A flashing yellow light is a yellow flag, whereas a solid yellow light is a slippery track warning. Therefore the overtake on the Force India was NOT under yellow flag conditions.

      For heaven’s sake people, Vettel is the 2012 World Champion and deservedly so. Get over it, and stop trying to invent rule infractions. I’ll be generous and assume you don’t know what the warning lights mean, however, less generously, this appears to be simply more mischief making.

      1. Brad says:

        Ah, also didn’t know this, thanks for the explanation!

  219. Mon Pen says:

    German driver wins championship by breaking rules. Hot diggidy that sounds familiar.

    1. James Allen says:

      Which rule did VET break again?

      1. Brad says:

        You are very patient James, I’m starting to boil reading these ridiculous accusations

      2. Joe_in_Miami says:

        I am also patiently waiting for you to reply to this: why did the TR leave a gap of 20 secs at the end of the race under the SC?

  220. Scott says:

    Does all of this suggest that next season, rather than investing in a team of people to develop their car to a Championship winning level, Ferrari will instead invest in a team of people to pore over hours of footage after each race looking for ways to get their championship challengers penalised?

    1. Mike says:

      Don’t they have already? It seems like they would have with the amount of protests.

      Joking aside I have a suggestion abpout how to change this.

      Only marshalls and teams would be allowed to make complaints to the judges about anything, nothing else would be reacted to.

      When teams make a complaint thjis is listed and official and public. So for example if FA asks for a safety car or red flag on radio this wouldnt be taken into account without a compalint from the team.

      Rhe papers could tell whos whining the most and so on and would make the teams only complain when necessary and not like now when Ferrari has Whiting on spped dial!

    2. Mike says:

      In essence this would make the teams unvilling to try their luck by making a lot of accusations because nobody wants to be seen as trying to win thru the cabinets.

      I think this was a PR catastrophe for Ferrari. Not because they wouldnt have tried anything but because AF and his manager made it public thru their cryptic twitters. In my mind they would have liked to try everything but without publicity, as probably any other team. But its a public sport and FIA should see that. There shouldnt be any whispers but open publöic protests.

      For example 4 rules where modified to hinder RB and mclaren after protest from one can assume ferrari. Did they spot 4 cases or was iyt 4 of 40? This would be interresting to know. And more interresting would be would they have done those in public eye?

      1. Steve says:

        I don’t know, regardless of what FA or his manager did I think Ferrari were forced into requesting clarification by the bombardment of requests from fans they were copping about it on social media. This was the case well before FA stirred things up on twitter.

        The fact that there was a green flag was pointed out very in the piece on the comments to the original youtube video but was drowned out by fans clinging to the hope that Fernando might yet have clinched the title.

      2. Joe_in_Miami says:

        why did the TR leave a gap of 20 secs at the end of the race under the SC?

      3. Steve says:

        Yeah, definitely should get the FIA to look into that. Penalty for being too far back under SC is another 20 seconds isn’t it? :P

  221. Larcxy says:

    Please make this all stop!!!

    A Fernando fan who wishes it was 15th March 2013 :(

    1. Steve says:

      The countdown is on!

  222. olivier says:

    Can someone please draw a simple graphic of this before “flag gate” turns into another myth?

  223. Oscar says:

    I’ve been a fan for more than 30 years. I’ve seen a lot of tricks during this years, but the things that has been happening during last 5 years has been enough for me. This is not F1: this is Pressing Catch. The only race I’ve seen this season is the last one, and it confirms why I don’t like this “sport” never more: people letting pass other drivers, drivers trying others to win instead of fighting… I’m very sorry, but this is only a show, not a sport.

    1. Joe_in_Miami says:

      I couldn’t agree more Oscar. Try NASCAR or even Indy.

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