What the FIA should do about team orders in Formula 1
Posted on | July 26, 2010 | by | 1,135 Comments
A day on from the furore over the Ferrari team orders row in the German Grand Prix, it seems to me that there has been a bit of an overreaction, with some sections of the media calling them ‘cheats’ and others calling for them to be banned by the disciplinary arm of the World Motor Sport council.
This is nonsense. Yes, it is a serious situation because they violated a rule which says that team orders are banned. And we should be in no doubt, despite the denials of Alonso that team orders were invoked here. But you have to look at the wider picture and acknowledge that it is a question of degree and that some common sense needs to be applied when sorting this matter out.
No-one was left in any doubt about what was happening by the tone and language of the message to Felipe Massa, nor by his subsequent yielding of the lead to Alonso. It is clear that Ferrari have a case to answer in terms of breaking a rule. They have been fined $100,000 by the stewards in Hockenheim, but further sanctions may follow from the WMSC.
People will of course point to the irony of FIA president Jean Todt presiding over this, given that it was his team order to Rubens Barrichello in 2002 which led to the introduction of the rule. But Todt has separated his position from the disciplinary procedure of the FIA, part of his distinction from the previous regime of Max Mosley. So he will not be sitting in judgement on this one. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be a force for change once the case has been heard. Because change is needed here.
The outcry back in 2002 was against the cynicism of the decision to give the win to Schumacher when he had been outclassed by Barrichello all weekend. It was very early in the season and Schumacher was already well clear in the points in an unbeatable car.
This situation is different on many counts. leaving aside the rule specifically banning team orders for a second, the championship is well advanced and it is closely fought. Ferrari feel aggrieved that they are at least 30 points worse off with Alonso than they should have been, largely due to some stewards decisions which have gone against them, rightly or wrongly. Massa too has lost points, but hasn’t been on the kind of form Alonso’s been on, so the Spaniard is clearly the one to go for the title, if Ferrari can only get him in the game.
He was faster than Massa all weekend and qualified in front of him, but then lost the start to the Brazilian and then couldn’t get ahead of him in the pit stops. If Ferrari had wanted to do a subtle switch, a slightly delayed pit stop for Massa would have done the trick. A second or two is all that it would have needed.
A big part of the problem here is the way it was handled, with Rob Smedley being given the task of giving his driver the bad news. It should have been Stefano Domenicali, the team boss, or Chris Dyer, the senior engineer. Smedley’s close relationship with Massa meant that he would inevitably struggle to deliver the message impartially and when he felt obliged afterwards to apologise – “Good lad, keep it going, sorry” – it sealed the conviction in our minds that this was a team order.
Eddie Irvine, who has been on the receiving end of a few “move over” orders in his time, said last night that he felt Smedley and Massa had overblown it to make a point and in doing so had let the team down. It has certainly landed them in hot water.
But the wider question is, should F1 have this rule banning team orders, should teams be able to act in the interests of the championship and are moves like this acceptable in some situations?
Think back to 2007, when Massa moved over in Brazil to let Raikkonen win the championship or the following year when the roles were reversed – did anyone object then? No, so that means that fans can understand there are occasions when teams do need some mechanism for shuffling the order, it’s just a question of the circumstances.
Given this, much of the hype in the media today is just that. It’s not race fixing and it’s not even in the same league as the Renault fix in Singapore with Nelson Piquet (which was ironically also to benefit Alonso).
There is a case to answer before the WMSC, but I would like to see the FIA take this opportunity to review the team orders rule and I would like to see FOTA stand behind Ferrari and come up with some proposals as to how this rule can best be adapted to work in the best interests of teams and of fans in modern F1.
It’s all very well for Christian Horner to say that he lets his drivers race, but come Brazil or Abu Dhabi when, for example, Hamilton is leading the championship and Vettel has a chance of beating him, if only his team mate, who’s well behind on points lets him through, are you telling me that he won’t make the switch? Of course he will and Webber will know before the start of the race what the score is.
People would expect it and understand it. The problem comes when it’s considered too early in the season. Perhaps the rule should be that there can be no team orders until the final third of the championship? That would be a simple solution.
But to reinforce the rule that team orders are banned full stop, would be a terrible mistake. It would create yet another artificiality, which would be more damaging to the sport in the long run.
Please send in your suggestions for how the FIA should handle the hearing and what changes if any should be brought in to the team orders rule. As always I will forward any that I feel have some merit on to the teams and to the FIA.
Comments
1,135 Responses to “What the FIA should do about team orders in Formula 1”
July 26th, 2010 @ 1:37 pm
It should be completely up to the drivers.
A driver knows what they need to do for the team.
This wasnt a situation that Massa needed to move over for Alonso, but I’m sure if he was out of the title hunt, and Alonso needed to pass Massa,
Massa would know what to do.
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splidge Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
I completely agree with this.
If it is obvious to the driver, as hyper-competitive as they are, that there is no possible benefit to anyone of them finishing in front of their team mate, common sense should prevail.
If it is not that obvious, and the team feels the need to intervene, then it is manipulation.
It’s very hard to draw a solid line in the sand on this one; you could have a rule about the mathematical possibility of winning the championship but realistically the point where it makes sense to move over is well before the point of mathematical impossibility.
The fact is that in this case Massa and Smedley clearly felt that his championship cause is not lost enough to justify the switch, and the same seems to be true for a lot of fans.
And the big problem for Massa is that having done it this weekend, the extra 14 points that Alonso is now ahead of him (38 points vs. 24) makes it all the more likely that the same thing will happen next time.
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Daniel Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:54 am
I don’t like this maths idea either but I don’t care about the team, I barrack for a driver and every time I watch I want to go into it believing he has a chance of winning the race. I like the idea teams can be punish if they put their own selfish interests before the fans. How would you like it if you were about to win Monaco and your team told you bad luck. How would you like it if you loved that driver and were devastated at what he would be FORCED to do. What if it’s his home grand prix and everyone has invested millions and people have saved up their hard earned money to watch their driver win their home grand prix. Then on the last turn just as he is about to win it, he pulls over to let an unworthy winner through. It really takes the sport out of motorsport.
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Simon R Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
I agree totally, and disagree with the premise that the rule is unworkable as it will create an artificiality. Alonso and Massa should have their points docked, and if the FIA enforces the rule that it created properly, then teams will have to get much sneakier if they are going to ‘cheat’ the fans of their drivers in this way. If they get caught, dock their points, simple as. Its up to the stewards to determine if they implemented team orders or not. If the teams knew that if they got caught they would lose their points, then they would think much much more carefully before attempting this kind of unsportsmanlike behaviour again. Unsportsmanlike being the operative word here.
CH1UNDA Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Formula1 is one of the very few sports where team members compete against each other. Because of this, fans support individual drivers rather than teams. As a result, the WDC has more marketing value than WCC even for the manufacturer. That is why switching team mates is actually fixing a race as it goes against the intuitive fundamentals of the sport i.e. people racing against each other. Look at how much competition there is between Lewis and Jenson or Webber and Vettel – its the people factor that attracts the fan. If it were not the driver factor that is attractive, we’d all be glued to our TVs watching radio-controlled F1 cars from different teams – now what fun would that be? To manage the team orders issue and retain the sporting aspects of F1, FIA either introduces the one-car team concept or continues to ban team orders.
Interestingly in 2010, FIA has subsequently amended all controversial rules that have involved Ferrari towards Ferrari’s logic and all that involved McLaren away from McLaren’s logic. If this holds, we should see the WMSC re-introducing team orders.
Christos Pallis Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
I don’t like to say weather Massa needed to do this at this point of the season. This year Ferrari have had a bit of a Hamilton vs Kovalinen situation. One driver on it consistantly and one who is not. Did Kovy have a chance at the title, no. Does Massa on season performance to date have a chance of winning the title, no. Has Alonso on season performance so far shown enough pace to have a chance at the title, yes.
I don’t like Ferrari, or Massa Or even more so Alonso but can i understand their reason and perspective, Absolutly.
They broke the rules, yes. They need to be punished for that, yes. Is the rule wrong? yes, when we consider teams up and down the grid have orders weather delivered over the radio or in a private meeting 5 min before the race.
The article points out how in recent years there have been examples of team orders but just in a more palitable way than Ferrari managed it…………
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Rodrigo Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Why do you think Alonso had such an edge over Massa? He had only one victory before Germany, so Massa would be tied by now. Massa was also very unlucky, but the points difference in the championship is not due to a huge difference in pace/performance.
Both were on the title fight until the last race, but I feel now Massa have given up.
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Rafael L Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 5:55 am
Not to mention that he was “only” 30 points behind and a race win is 25.
If you stop and think about it for a second or two, Massa was really not that far behind Alonso.
This was extremely unfair.
Mikael Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Well, Massa has half the points of Hamilton in the lead and we are more than halfway through the season so Massa is/was more or less out of the title hunt.
Massa would need to win 3-4 or even more of the 8 races we have left to be able to take the WDC. Looking back at the previous races in this season, I don’t see that happening. Alonso has a better chance at the WDC and have outperformed Massa this season, but duo to bad luck etc has lost a lot of points.
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Andy W Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Lets just flip last season on its head…. Jenson (a poorly rated driver by many) won 6 of the 7 last races after making a poor start to the season.
Or maybe we should go back to the last time Ferrari won the drivers championship…. at this point of the season Kimi was in a similar position to what Massa was up until he let Alonso past.
Regardless the regs….
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IDR Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:32 am
“won 6 of the 7 last races after making a poor start to the season…”
Jenson won 6 of the 7 FIRST races of the season, last year.
If that is a poor start to the season…
Andy W Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:08 am
Lets just flip last season on its head…. *DOH*
aezy Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Read it again IDR – Andy is saying it is feasible for a driver to go on a run and claim 6 victories in 7 races towards the end of the season i.e. flipping last season on its head.
I happen to disagree with the specific point that Massa could win 6 races from the remainder of the season and believe it will not happen this year, but the wider point of the potential for Massa to come into contention WAS there until he let Alonso through.
Rafael L Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
I sort of agree with this. But Massa was only 30 points behind Alonso – and a race win is 25 points in of itself. Point being that Massa wasn’t THAT far off Alonso.
Massa proved that he IS STILL IN FORM! He just needs a good car. Is Alonso faster? Maybe – but he is also unreliable. False starts, crashes, etc. Massa consistently seems to have better starts than him and I think it is unfair for Massa to continually have to move over.
With that said, I think James’ suggestion about only allowing them in the last third of the season makes sense.
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Paul Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
I think a lot of the reaction relates to the personalities here.
Remember how McLaren always had a special bond with Mika Hakkinen after his crash at Adelaide. Perhaps we are all disappointed that Ferrari don’t seem to have the same supportive approach to Massa.
Conversely, Alonso was guilty at McLaren of working on the stolen Ferrari data with De La Rosa (then threatening the team as a result); it seems impossible to most that he was not involved in the Singapore cheating incident; and now he seems to have a contractual right to insist on a free pass to help him in a season littered with his own mistakes. A charitable popular view might be to call him “unsporting”. There are other words.
Perhaps with this background the reaction is unsurprising
Oph Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Paul ask your doctor to change your medicines
F. Alligatore Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
“It should be completely up to the drivers.”
If that were the case then any driver who had the
competitive fire in his belly would never allow his team mate past.
Clearly you lack an understanding of how this game is played in the REAL WORLD of huge amounts of money and the need to please those sponsors who bring that money.
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David Smith Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
Those sponsors who bring that money?? Isn’t it us the paying fans that go to watch races and view it on TV that attract sponsors after all if F1 had a global audience of a couple of hundred fans I don’t think anyone would sponsor F1. Its the fans that are moaning saying something has to be done after all If i had paid good money to go to hockenheim and witnessed that I’d be after a refund.
By the way I am a Ferrari Fan.
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rafa Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
yes, and in this case we would talk of target audience: Ferrari and santander have no need for english speaking audience as a whole: they do not have english speaking drivers and the team is italian, and moreover, that section of the market is well taken by McLaren, so what´s the point in trying to pursue that segment of the market? Ferrari is a private company who in the face of a hard decision which addresses the basic paradox of F1 -that two team mates should compete against each other- took a rational if horribly staged choice: tell the weaker link to move over and make itself useful in a subsidiary role. You see, Ferrari basically has no need to please every single one of F1 fans: just their fan base and potential consumers, and these are only concerned with one thing: winning.
Andy W Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
Completely agree, leaving these decisions upto the driver is ridiculous because no driver wants to give up a place to his team mate… its pressure from the team mate/team that is the driving force behind these decisions, and the idea that any team would willingly hire a driver who doesn’t want to win races for himself is just ludicrous…
Yes Massa may have towed the team line, but to try and make it out was his decision to let his team mate past and that Ferrari weren’t holding a metaphorical knife to his throat is just ludicrous!
Personally I would allow team orders, but make it so they have to be open and above board, that conditions are written into contracts that state when and under what circumstances the team will ask a driver to make such a move. I would also ask that any team orders should be explicitly given as TEAM ORDERS and should not be given by race engineers but by the team boss or a designated other. These conditions should also be published at the start of the season…
For example:
Team Apple might have a team stance that team orders will not come into play until one driver it is impossible for a driver to win the championship and will therefore race in support of his team mate.
Team Banana, takes the view that driver Violin is occupying the second seat and will let team mate Trumpet past when ever Trumpet is behind him.
Team Strawberry accepts that its drivers Knife and Fork will be left to race the entire season and no team orders or instructions will ever be given.
That way we fans will know what the score is and can judge the different teams by their policies. If you happen to be a major player in the sports car market then you might find it fits your brand to have a win at all costs image, or you might decide that you want to tie your brand to ‘good sportsman image’.
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jose arellano Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
+1 on this one, i just came here to post it, and find out you already did!
David Smith Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Excellent comment.
don knowles Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
+1.
Team orders have always existed in multi-car teams, even at racing levels well below F1, and the current rule just is an abomination–does not reflect reality.
Having said that, some constraints or conditions would be good–transparency being one Transparency alone may be enough for me. Or maybe some additional limits–last part of season, behind certain number of points, etc.
Andy W Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
Transparency is a must in my book, but beyond that I wouldn’t want to put too many preconditions on as they would only confuse the issue. Let the teams decide and ask them to make them public.
If team banana choose to run a no1 and a no2 driver, where the no2 driver has to give full support to his team mate for the full season thats fine, as long as its done above board and in the open. The fact that this might mean they struggle to get a top flight driver in their 2nd seat is something that they will have to deal with… but I am sure that there are plenty of up and coming drivers who would ‘happily’ sign a deal for the no2 car for a couple of years for the opportunity of driving a race winning car, knowing that they will have a chance to get better offers further down the road.
Rafael L Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 6:00 am
+1
James, please PLEASE forward this idea to whoever can make things happen.
Letting the fans know what the official stance of the team is before the first race is crucial.
Karley Hansen Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
+1 for sure.
I truley think that transparency is a must for the fan/team relationship.
Also there should be tough actions if a team doesn’t abide by the contracted rules for the driver, like if they over-use this rule change!
Mareks Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 1:58 am
+1! Great idea! Team orders should be allowed, but both drivers should know their place in the team before the season.
Alexis Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:03 am
How are Ferrari’s sponsors being helped at the moment then?
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monktonnik Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:17 am
Apparently there is no such thing as bad press. At least they are getting a lot of coverage.
Although in this case I am not sure it is all that desirable.
Zobra Wambleska Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
My guess is that the sponsors didn’t fare well in Brazil with this decision, and that’s a non-English speaking country.
Andy W Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Ask Renault how well their Singapore adventure went down with their sponsors…
I can’t see them being that happy about having their brands dragged through the mud and the team they are sponsoring being dragged before the WMSC.
Rodrigo Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
I am brazilian and my bank is Santander. Actually, Santander bought the bank I had my acount, so it was not my choice.
After last week, I decided to move my account to another bank.
I am not doing that cause I am a fan trying to “defend the poor Massa”. I more disapointed at him than at Ferrari or Santander. But I am moving the account anyway.
But it is interesting to see some advertising by the bank here using Massa in the car, something like: “Invest in you passion for racing”.
Shane Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
Massa is, for all intents and purposes, out of the WDC hunt. Alsonso still has an admittedly long shot and winning the WDC. Ferrari are still viable candidates in the Constructor’s championship. This order was needed, was timely and should not have been made into such an ordeal by Massa and Smedley.
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Andy W Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
If Massa had been given the win his slim’ odds at winning the championship would be fairly close to what Alonso’s are having been gifted the win.
Regardless the regs quite clearly state that the team is not to manipulate the race result, and Ferrari quite clearly breached those regs. If Alonso wants to be crowned World Champion then he should beat his team mate on the track not because Ferrari threatened to kill Massa’s puppies or whatever the implied threat was.
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RaulZ Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Well, Alonso allways has been better than his team mate on race, except with hamilton, so if once he was helped by his team I don’t think it means that he doesn’t deserve a title.
Remembering 2007 and Hamilton I have to ask here where team orders finish. I mean that between make one driver let pass the other and just decide who has one lap more of fuel or who stops before or later, there’s a big lap, but it’s a team order in any case.
Richard Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Spot on!
senna Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
agree. But it is undestandable that both were upset when they had the chance to set the record straight.
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SeanG Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Whose intents and purposes? Certainly not anyone who performs basic math with competency.
The only strange thing is that Massa knows Ferrari. What the hell did he think would happen?
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Shane Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Whose? well, anyones I should think. Taking the pace of RBR, Maclaren and Massa into consideration from the first half of the season I think it is fairly obvious that Ferrari only have one driver that is capable of making a true WDC bid in 2010. I can certainly perform basic math, with competency even, but I can also see what is happening in the real world.
There were 225 points remaining prior to the German Grand Prix. Assuming Massa won in Germany (or the WMSC reverses their points), Massa would have to best Alonso in 5 of the next 8 races. Maybe Ferrari’s ploy will light a fire in Massa, but I doubt it would be enough, especially taking into consideration that he has fallen to Alonso in 6 of 10 races thus far (excluding Germany). This of course assumes that Ferrari take 1-2 in all remaining races. Once you start mixing up the results a bit, it becomes more obvious that Alonso is the clear leader at Ferrari in 2010.
Another scenario that proves my point, again reversing fortunes of the German Grand Prix. If Ferrari were to secure 3-4 from here on out, with Massa besting Alonso in all of the upcoming races, they would end up tied in points, but Alonso leads due to wins.
Basically every realistic scenario that you can play out, Alonso ends up beating Massa in WDC points.
Is Massa mathematically able to win the WDC? Yes. Realistically, No.
So, after performing basic mathematics, with a touch of proficiency even you SeanG should be able to see that Massa is all but out of the WDC.
Stuart Henson Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:55 am
and it is not like mclosers have not issued team orders in the last 5 seasons and they live in a glass house!!
German gran prix 2008:- kovalienen lets shamilton passed, no one bats an eyelid,
1998 Australian grand prix:- david coulthard moves over mika cry baby,
and even 2 faced eddie jordan issued a team order to Ralf Schumacher not to pass damon hill in spa for the teams first win.
F1 is a team sport more than a driver sport, lets ask this question, Where would the drivers be without the team? or Where would the team be without the drivers?
I remember Frank Williams being quoted once in saying that a driver is just an expensive employee!
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murray Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Shane: “was needed, was timely but badly handled”. You forgot illegal. If the FIA strips the points, it might remind people what illegal is, and what it means. Partisan illegality is usually argued as “it’s a bad rule, we’re justified because everyone else flaunts it, so therefore we should suffer no penalty, and everyone should go away and pretend that rule doesn’t exist, or failing that, pretend we didn’t break it”. Is there more to your argument than “Ferrari needed to”?
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Shane Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:24 am
Illegal? What rule was broken? Certainly the spirit of the rule, but all that Ferrari said (as far as I know) is “Alonso is faster, do you understand?”
Had they said “Let Alonso through, he is faster”, then clearly a rule was broken.
It was my understanding that this is allowed, giving your driver information on his teammate. My contention is, it wasn’t illegal but very poorly handled by Massa and Smedley.
I know this is ticky-tack at best, but I think once the lawyers get involved at the WMSC level this will be Ferrari’s argument. I imagine they will prevail, but only time will tell.
Zobra Wambleska Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Shane , in your later post you say if Germany results are reversed Alonso would still win the WDC by virtue of more wins. I think Alonso would only have one win to Massa’s German win in that case and under the rest of your conjecture Masa would be at Alonso’s level.
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Shane Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:17 am
Good point! I did not take that into consideration! So, if Germany is reversed and Massa secures 3rd with Alonso 4th in all of the remaining races, Massa will have the same points as Alonso, but will be ahead in wins. Not a likely scenario, but you are right, I stand corrected.
terryshep Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:32 pm
Parthi, reverse that situation and assure me that Fernando would ‘know what to do’ – I suspect that Fernando would do what great champions always do, you’ve heard the expression ‘Nice guys finish second’?
The fact remains that, since commercial sponsors and big budgets have come into F1, the team has an absolute obligation to deliver the best possible result, not only for the sponsors and the fans, but also the workers back in the factory with families to support. Consequently, while any rule remains on the books, there will always be covert manipulation, either by an unnecessary pitstop or a ‘you have to save fuel’ instruction. The problem at the moment is that Ferrari bungled it and also chose to do it too early in the season, when so much can still happen to either car before the end.
As fans, we have to accept the realities of F1. As DC said rather too often in his book,’It is what it is’ We wouldn’t have the super-streamlined F1 we see today without the commercial interests which underpin it.
One consolation for this loss of innocence from the big money budgets, etc is that the great strides in safety which we’ve seen since 1994 have largely been made possible by these budgets (and Max, to be fair) and I am thankful that I can watch my races on a Sunday afternoon with the reasonable expectation that no-one will be hurt for my entertainment.
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Crid [CridComment at gmail] Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
> A driver knows what they need to do
> for the team.
No, it’s not an individual character failure, or even a team character failure.
And people shouldn’t worry that this sullies the “sport”: People always want to race cars.
Good for James for keeping his eye on the real problem: The financial incentives in F1 are perverted. I don’t think Ferrari loves Fernando more than Felipe… But there were millions in compensation at stake, so what were they supposed to do?
Baricello’s a pretty cheerul guy, as is Coulthard. But I’ve always had the sense that both had their spirits wounded by these shenanigans, and now it’s sad to see it happen to Massa.
This sports league should be configured such that when the grandchildren ask these guys about the olden days when they were doing something special, they’ll be able to say they always did their best.
This is an FIA/CVC problem, not a racing problem.
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senna Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:09 pm
right. they will be able to tell their grand children. I was second fiddle to schumacher, so you could have the best schooling and this beautifull weekend hacienda. I swallowed everything that was thrown at me, just for you and your sisters to have the best oportunities live can offer.
Alonso at least didn’t want to be second driver to hamilton in 08 at mclaren, and left. He ate some dirt at renault for two years, and now is going for it. Making mistakes and all.
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Stuart Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Spot on point. Drivers are well aware of the circumstances. If this was the last race of the year, and an Alonso victory would have given him WDC, then I’m sure Massa would have obliged for the good of the team. But with 8 or 9 races to go, I think that’s what fans are against. It’s too early.
The worst part is the theft of a victory from Massa on the 1-year anniversary of his accident.
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JOSE Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Massa has NO chance of winning this season. It is hard for him, but this is the truth.
So, from the point of view of a TEAM, why should Ferrary share their points between their two drivers, when only one can reach the WDC??
I am sorry for Masa, as it would be fantastic for him to win a race one year after, but the WCD is more important than that.
He behaved as a child and quite unprofessional.
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Stuart Henson Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 3:00 am
FERRARI would have to do the same if Massa was just behind Alonso, and was 10 points from leading the championship and Alonso was about double behind the leaders, we say 8 or 9 races left, but this can only be significant if FERRARI win every race 1 and 2!!
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Craig Chamberlain Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
I agree it should be up to the drivers just as it was up to Massa yesterday. He was the one controlling the car after all. He could have raced on and risked a crash with Alonso who would surely have attacked him for race position. He chose not to.
However, if you were the team principal of Ferrari would you not be inclined to conclude that the only realistic chance you have of winning the WDC is with Alonso? Massa has not shown good enough form so far this season compared to Alonso. It becomes easy to make a decision when a driver has no mathematical chance of winning the WDC but we are not at that stage yet. However, given the competitiveness of the top 3 teams (and often the 4th and 5th teams as well) Ferrari need to make a choice now, and they have.
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Lenny555 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:35 am
I agree and this is what the the Governing body and the fans need to look at. The teams are not here so 2 guys can go out and have a fun weekend in a car, they get signed because the team think they can get the results and Alonso has been so far and has the best chance of claiming the title for Ferrari.
I feel sorry for Massa but with a stronger performance up to now this might not of happened.
You could also argue that what happened to Mark and the wing situation was also team orders and could of affected the outcome of the race.
Anyway i think this rule needs to be changed and yes i feel sorry for Felipe but we all now that championships are won and lost by the in situations like this.
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El shish Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Fully agree… Regardless of what we think, massa obviously considers (considered) himself to still be in the title hunt and his team obviously hadn’t told him otherwise before the race. We talk about what happened in 07 and 08 so it’s clear massa knows the score and knows what to do when the time comes…. It just seems he, like most fans it seems, wasn’t aware that, at halfway through the season, that time was upon us.
This argument about alonso being quick irks me. The race weekend and points won, isn’t just about being quick – it’s about finding the best set up for the car, qualifying well, starting well, overtaking and defending as required, and looking after the car. To say alonso was quicker and as been all season is easily countered by arguments that he has consistently started poorly and has not been able to overtake as well as other leading condensers. Massa, in contrast, has consistently gotten off to hood starts… That’s also a strength and one that has served to counter alonso’s superior qualifying performance.
What is worst in all of this is stefano d’s insistence that there was, and still is no number 1 and number 2 driver… At least if he came clean about this, massa – whether he would have liked it or not – would have known exactly what he had to do and it all might have happened without leaving such a foul taste in everybody’s mouth.
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Hans Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
“To say Alonso was quicker and has been all season is easily countered by arguments…..”
I’m sorry but if you look at it that way: Alonso had a clear advantage in the championship standings over Massa before this race started. In the end that is what counts.
A lot of people did not give FA much of a chance of winning the WDC anymore, so lets not discuss the chances of FM.
This teamorder brought FA halfway back to business.
I think in the situation Ferrari was in, allowing teamorders only in the final third of the championship would have been far to late.
I dont want to discuss about that particular situation with Ferrari now but it is to point out that accepting teamorders at a certain moment of the season is no good either.
For one team it could be halfway the season the right moment is there as for the other team it could be only at the last race.
This way teamorders will still lead to discussions.
Accepting teamorders right from the start of the season is the only sensible solution to it. Teams and drivers should decide for themselves if, how and when they want to use it.
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A-P Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
I believe that, between them, Parthi and Damian Johnson [2.] have said it all.
I agree with Parthi entirely:
“It should be up to the drivers. A driver knows what they need to do for the team” — indeed, drivers understand (or certainly ought to) before any given race begins what, if any, move might be appropriate under what conditions and at what point.
The fact that Massa needed to be told indicates the move was inappropriate in this case. The move was in response to what amounted to an order, it was not a purely voluntary move based on an agreement with the practicalites of any championship situation.
I agree with most of Damian’s points, especially:
“I would advocate driver points reversal and Ferrari team points removed” — by judicious use of a 5 second penalty (or otherwise) in the case of the drivers, but make it clear to all competitors that outright exclusion will result from any further instance of orders communicated mid-race. “If Ferrari continue to deny team orders then a large fine should be considered along the lines of what McLaren received based on Ferrari’s ability to pay” — pretty much agree again, let them realise they really aren’t kidding anyone.
Again from Damian:
“All driver contracts to be vetted by FIA for evidence of inconsistency with FIA rules on team orders.” Is it not the case that either party can lodge their contracts with the FIA voluntarily, already? Whether I have that right or not, making it compulsory would indeed seem sensible in light of the current issue.
All said, just enforce what is already in the rules. Very little needs to be changed … beyond Ferrari’s and Alonso’s attitudes.
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Bujang Tembawai Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:22 am
I believed any team that is the situation where one of the drivers has a better chance in the championship will issued team orders in favour of him.
In the case of Ferrari last weekend, they shot their own foot because of the blatant clearity of the instruction to FM. A more discreet method should have been employed. AND there should be clear understanding of both drivers on team priority which dictates team orders.
As FM mentioned in the PC on Sunday, both him and FA worked for Ferrari and are paid by Ferrari, so they are obliged to fulfill the teams requirements.
I’m not against team orders, but do it disreetly please, then you won’t annoy us supporters of the sport so much.
As for the FIA and FOTA, I proposed that punishment is only meted out to ‘I saw that one coming’ team orders. The ones done discreetly should be left by its own.
Formula 1 is a team sport, investment on each team is for the team to succeed, which is then supported BY THE DRIVERS who has the talent to fulfill the teams potential.
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Rishi Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:12 am
It was fairly discreet in the sense that they won’t have said “Felipe please move over” but instead said “Fernando is faster,” although a pitstop switch would have been better.
Rules-wise the one thing I can think of is to allow team orders only when it is mathematically impossible for one driver to win the title. This was the case in Brazil 2007 and China 2008 but not the case on Sunday (even though Alonso was clearly further ahead). A related subsidiary is if one driver is a certain number of points ahead of another or has accumulated a certain percentage of the points for their team/constructor.
One thing that has been largely overlooked, from what I’ve read, in this furore is the new points system. Alongside rewarding teams down to 8th place, the 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 system was introduced to help stop team-orders on the basis that teams would be less inclined to do it for only 2 extra points. This year we instead have a 25-18-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1 system (I think) to give drivers a greater incentive to win than under 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. This may well have worked at races like Turkey and Canada, but at the same time it also encourages team orders – particularly when running 1st and 2nd. Could a difference of, for example, 5 points (with only 15 or 20 for the win) have helped avoid this? Or is Hockenheim’s drama simply a price to pay for a system that strongly rewards victory? I would inline towards to the former but there is definitely an argument either way.
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Rishi Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:21 am
CORRECTIONS: Meant to say ‘a related possibility is to allow team orders if one driver is a certain number clear than team-mate/has scored a certain percentage of team points.’ This could be a subsidiary to a ‘mathematically impossible’ rule, but would probably work better as an alternative to it.
Should also say that I inclined towards a 15/20 points for win system even when the new system was introduced so in bringing up the above point I am not, in American parlance, being a Monday morning quarter-back.
Mark Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 8:48 am
I think it’s time to make more point scoring opportunities to reflect the drivers performance over the weekend and not just the race result.
Perhaps a point for topping each Q session on Saturday inc pole and a point for fastest lap and leading a lap or most laps lead, would make it harder for teams to make a calculation on points tally and therefore make the call to move over?
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David Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
I believe there should be no team orders till minimum of 2 thirds of season. Then only if say 1 driver has at least 50 points advantage over team mate. 50 points is only 2 race wins. Probably diminishing race by race.
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Ikertzeke Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
900 comments… Wow!
Why not ban the pit radio?
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Racehound Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
obviously Massa didnt know what to do!! Or he would have done it more discreetly maybe and not caused all this problem for the team!! This is like Hamilton at Monaco 07 standing on the podium with a face like a slapped ar5e and his little old man running up and down near the stewards mumbling “team orders” every 10 seconds!!!! Magnanimous my ar5e,,,I dont think that Smedley knows what the word means himself, so i cant see how he will translate it for Messa!!!! Massa, Smedley and Dyer are the weak link at Ferrari, and need to be replaces as soon as possible!!!!
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Leo Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
Agree, it seems that the “big picture” corporate style has overtaken the real sport now.
Massa beat Fernando thats it. If they wanted Fernando to win they simply should have delayed Massas pit stop and no one was the wiser!
I can understand Smedley being upset and reluctant. poor guy, I hope thay dont sack him now!!
Smedley and Dyer are OK its the top brass that need talking to !!!!
Lets hope this does not happen again, it spoils everything.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 1:51 pm
Much depends on whether Ferrari continue to deny that they operated team orders. Ferrari also broke a rule and for that they need to be properly punished.
You might say that other teams have used team orders. But Ferrari did it so blatantly that they were found out unlike the other teams. In that respect, one could say the situation is like spygate where all teams do it but it was McLaren that were found to have a case to answer.
I would advocate driver points reversal and Ferrari team points removed. If Ferrari continue to deny team orders then a large fine should be considered along the lines of what McLaren received based on Ferrari’s ability to pay.
In future, all team orders should be banned for the first half of the season to stop any team having a deliberate policy of a favoured driver from the start of the season and team orders can only come into play once the mathematical chance of one of the drivers winning the WDC is finished. That way, the supporting driver can have no compalints about equal treatment.
All driver contracts to be vetted by FIA for evidence of inconsistency with FIA rules on team orders.
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Hussein Lokhandwala Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Ferrari have to adopt the denial position, because of the rule in place. To not do so would be openly admitting that they ‘cheated’ and consider themselves above the law.
Its flawed logic to say they deserve punishment for the ‘blatancy’ of their rule infringement. The equivalent is punishing a team who attaches a visible illegal turbo to the engine but not one who races with illegal and subtle aerodynamic upgrades. It’s agreed by anyone who calls them-self a Formula 1 fan that all teams operate team orders, they should be allowed to take decisions that are in their own best interests, considering how much money they invest, and they should be able to act as they deem necessary from any point in the season.
In terms of vetting the contracts, whats agreed between two parties i.e. team and driver is a matter for them. Assuming Massa does have a 2nd driver clause, nobody put a gun to his head to make him sign it.
To start handing down judgement based on the subjective perceived cynicism to me seems very silly, for a sport that prides itself on its intelligence and pragmatism.
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mtb Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Such a rule would permit teams to instruct drivers to swap position in the second half of the season when neither driver has a chance of winning the championship – just like what McLaren did at Jerez in 1997!
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CTP Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
yes, ferrari are certainly lying, and as such, should be strongly punished for such – spygate was as much about lying as anything else, according to herr mosley, so this should be too.
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Jimmy Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
I’d go for the mathematical part of the solution. If your team has one driver fighting for the WDC and another that can’t win it, you won’t even need any orders.
On the other hand, there’s a lot of chatter on the spanish media about concealed team orders being already used by other teams (namely McLaren) disguised as “We need to save fuel”. When this happens, maybe, in the best interest of sport, the FIA should check the team’s telemetry and see if that particular driver really needed to save fuel.
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Jack Holt Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
They told Hamilton to save fuel again this race, presumably a codeword for let Jenson by? Or, and I might be way off base here, maybe McLaren – like every other team – factor in fuel saving periods when deciding the fuel loads: excess fuel costs time and wears tyres. Or we could just believe the Spanish media…
…but it’s strange that neither Hamilton nor Button appeared to understand the “save fuel” message – Hamilton and his engineer seemed to think it meant the race was off, whereas Button thought differently. Isn’t it strange that McLaren dreamt up these codewords but then forgot to tell the drivers and their race engineers? Or we could just believe the Spanish media…
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Galapago555 Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
And what about Hockenheim ‘08, and Heikkii yielding to Hamilton? This was a clear case of team orders… or we could believe English media.
By the way, you can check what Ron Dennis said, asumming that Heikki did actually yield to Lewis in the best team’s interest:
http://mclaren.com.cn/f1season/2008/germany/sunday.php
Is this cheating or not? Yes, it is, but we know that Lewis is to get no real penalty from his friends in FIA… or we could just believe English media.
Cliff Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
The weight of the car at the end of a race can give the FIA that sort of information. Too light would get a penalty.
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F. Alligatore Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
Your comments reveal that you wish for idealism which has never existed and will never exist, in the real world of F1.
In any case, all this is nothing but “bread and circuses”, and it’s pathetic to see people get so upset over it, as though it was a life and death struggle or something of that sort.
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Col Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
The complete denial by Ferrari is what grates with me the most. If Rob Smedley (although it shouldn’t have fallen to Rob to do) had come on the radio and said, “Look baby, you know what Fernando is like when he doesn’t get his own way so you’d better let him pass, in all fairness he is looking more likely to win the championship then you.” then I wouldn’t have been that bothered.
What is a problem is when everyone at Ferrari claims that Massa wasn’t told to move over and that he had some mysterious problem coming out of the hairpin.
More transparency is what is needed.
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Just A Bloke (Martin) Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
Spot on totally agree, I don’t like being taken for a muppet.
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Rafael L Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 6:29 am
Neither do I, but let’s be real here. Ferrari would be dumb to admit team orders when they are illegal…
Igor M. Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
I agree with the approach that team orders to be banned until one of the drivers mathematically cannot win WDC any more. That is, if I am not mistaken, how Kimi and Masa arranged it and publicly spoke about it. That way everybody knew that, when the time comes, Massa would move over to Kimi and vice-versa, and nobody objected to it.
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BurgerF1 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:40 am
The mathematical approach won’t work, though it sounds simple enough. Who’s to say a team won’t engineer it’s way into making sure one driver is mathematically out of the picture? Look at Renault in Singapore, and you quickly see that the teams can be very clever about manipulating a race result. What staggers me about this incident is the bush-league way Ferrari went about it, and the backlash it’s generated. The problem stems from the teams wanting to win both championships. This left Ferrari until after the pitstops to have to make the clumsy switch. In prior years with re-fuelling, a little slip of the wheel gun, or delay in removing the fuel hose was all that was necessary…
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Michael P Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Germany was race 11 so half the season was already over!
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GomerPile Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
“team orders can only come into play once the mathematical chance of one of the drivers winning the WDC is finished”
Completely agree – excellent idea. It’s based upon facts, so should be easily understandable and measureable.
I’m sure we can all understand driver switches for the championship in the last 2 or 3 races, and I can understand (and even encourage) the team dynamic of letting a faster team mate through to challenge further up the field (Massa and Alonso in Australia this year, Hamilton and Kovy at Germany last year), but I think it went too far yesterday.
From a Ferrari perspective, they got the same number of points either way, so no team benefit. And Massa is still in with a chance of the championship – he was only just more than a single race win back. I’m hoping for a run of bad reliability for Alonso now, and Massa missing the championship by up to 7 points.
Perhaps we need to see a rule about swapping the LEAD of the race, with the swapper being mathematically out of the championship to make it legal.
Or do we acknowledge that it will always happen, and enforce it like engines – saying that each team is allowed to swap driver positions up to a maximum of 3 times (or some other number) a season into any position and for any reason. Any undeclared or additional stops (i.e. bad pit stop, an overtake), should be investigated by the stewards to ensure everyone was trying their hardest.
What do you think?
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GomerPile Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Just for clarification re my examples of allowing a faster team mate through:
Massa and Alonso – didn’t happen, probably should have.
Kovy and Hamilton – did happen, probably a team order as Hamilton was much faster and went on to win the race.
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GomerPile Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
And another thing …
After the race was won, on the team radio was Alonso prattling on about the pass, saying something like ‘what happened to Felipe, did he miss a gear?’ or some such nonsense?
Or did I imagine that? I don’t much like Alonso, and don’t want to put words in his mouth, but if he did say that, he must think all F1 fans are mugs to be so easily conned.
Anyone else here that, or should I be making an appointment at the physciatrist’s?
Mikael Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:51 am
I don’t think the drivers listens to the other drivers radio during the race… which means Alonso probably did not hear what Smedley said to Massa. Seems to me that there is a lot of Alonso bashing around when clearly it was the team that made the decision.
Rafael L Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 6:32 am
Mikael…Alonso new very well what was going on. To deny that would be silly.
Arri Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Rafael…..have you asked Alonso? You just seem so sure.
I think there is a misconception about Alonso place within Ferrari. Please remember that Alonso is an employee, he does not own nor run Ferrari….to think that would be silly
. This order came from the team and there is no radio transmission notifying Alonso of the decision (we would have heard it fof sure)so how would he have known?
Steve Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
I agree with the part about alowing team orders only when one of the drivers is mathematicaly out of the WDC race. Also, I think the FIA should review the contracts, so that there’s no team orders before the fact, as that is breaking the rules as well.
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mtb Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Team A has one driver (A1) who has a strong chance of winning the WDC and another (A2) who can not.
Team B has one driver who has a strong chance of winning the WDC (B1) and another driver who has a very slight chance of winning the WDC (B2).
Team A is allowed to implement team orders to assist A1, but Team B is not permitted to assist B1 in a similar manner.
Would such a system be fair?
A team could deliberately hold one of its drivers back to ensure that that driver no longer had a mathematical chance of winning the championship.
Either permit team orders, or ban them. If they are going to be banned, then the FIA should start doing something about these teams that instruct their drivers to “save fuel”.
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Mikael Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:55 am
I fully agree with you! The mathematical-solution is no good since it will/could give an unfair advantage to some teams.
There is no way to get rid of team orders since this is a team sport so I say permit them but let us see/hear what’s happening and why.
swayze Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Excellent points and i would agree with all your points but if Ferrari are found to have lied to the stewards they have already set a presedent in Australia with Hamilton.It is clear Ferarri would have got a 1/2 at the race so it would be harsh to not allow them to keep the points albeit reversed but Ferrari got themselves into this mess so it is their own fault.
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Anil Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
That’s ridiculous, you can’t ‘ban’ team orders, they will ALWAYS exist, no matter what a team manager or driver says.
Just lift the rule and leave it up to the drivers. Tbh i’d be more happy with them banning team radio and seeing what happens from there.
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PeterF Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
I agree with your recommendations for the punishment for Ferrari from the WMSC. If the TEAM looses their points it will send a clear message to all teams. Also, on the day, Alonso did not have the race craft to win, that honour was due to Massa, reversing the positions would be the fair thing to do.
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SeanG Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
I love so many say that Alonso was faster over the weekend. To that I would say “Massa was faster when it mattered.”
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Eric Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Sport is all about delivering when it matters. Many people are not smart.
Galapago555 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:54 am
No, he wasn’t. He was lapping 0.5 sec slower that Alonso. Should he not have acted as a child, and yielding on a corner – like Heikki did in Hockenheim’08 – and nothing of this would happen. But he needed to say loudly to the World that he was yielding… childish behaviour. If I were Team Manager, Massa would have been fired inmediately after the race.
Paul Kirk Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 6:46 am
Personally, I haven’t a problem with team orders, you can hardley expect a team and their sponsors, after spending millions and planning and working towards a goal, to not wish to have control over their results!!! I mean F1 is a business, not a game! Then there is the question of how much the drivers get paid, if one gets 20,000,000, and the other gets 5,000,000 it’s obvious where the team’s first priorities are, and should be!! I don’t believe Ferrari should be penalized!! I do believe the rule banning orders should be banned!! If I was a team boss/owner and I wasn’t alowed to boss my team, then why would I bother haveing it? I may as well sit in front of the tv and watch a bouncy ball game! (And there’s NO chance of that happening!) Many posters seem to be getting bitter and twisted about Ferrari and their orders, but for the life of me I can’t understand why!!!
PK.
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Paul Kirk Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 6:54 am
Cont… And while they’re busy banning the rule banning team orders, the FIA should also bann KERs in F1 for ever!!! PK.
PeterF Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:49 am
In other words its fine to break any rule you don’t agree with!
D@X Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Well said Damian! I think the record was set when McLaren had their wrist slapped for the spygate and for sure it does send out a message for all those willing to take the risk of bending the rules.
So Ferrari should be fined accordingly for bringing the sport into disrepute, remove them from the contractors and annul their result in Germany for both drivers.
Unless each team has one driver then I see no progress with team orders getting completely banned or being done without. Should the underdog dare to perform again, then Alonso and Massa should fall out very quickly just as he did with Hamilton.
But then again this could be Alsonso’s dark cloud following him from team to team. Somehow he ends up in a team that will be fined heavily. Renault, McLaren and who knows what Ferrari will eventually get. Something that is not anticipated in good strategy…Karma!
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Hans Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
To me Spygate wasn´t anywere near ´bending the rules´.
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A.K. Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Rubbish. Ferrari should not be fined at all. They have done nothing more than what they themselves and other teams have done in recent times, even this year. Recall how Kovaleinen moved over for Hamilton. That went by with hardly a whimper because the team in question was a British one. There was certainly no grilling from the media or from fans that have now weighed in with their opinions. The there were the “Vettel is faster than you” to Webber and Button being told that his “fuel situation is CRITICAL!” so that he should not attack Hamilton.
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Irish con Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
Finally some one on here can see sence. The mclaren and British fans on here want Ferrari banned but won’t admit to the heikki lewis incident two years ago with the exact same thing happening. The British just can’t admit it and if they want Ferrari kicked out you have to take away lewis’s points from that race in 08. And Im not biased like the Brits so Ferrari should lose the points from china that year also. It has to be one rule for all. Since 2002 yesterday was the 200th time Id guess where team orders where involved yet Ferrari are first team pulled by media. Why bcos there not British
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dils Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:19 am
How about Brazilian fans and media? I’m sure they’re a bit upset.
Just A Bloke (Martin) Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:55 pm
I think its the disrepute issue which is causing Ferrari a problem. If they were more open and honest about the situation then what ever the rules, fair play. Personally I wanted to see if Alonso could pass Massa, Could Massa take the pressure? I think if Massa was under SERIOUS pressure from Alonso and VEttel was closing then he would perhaps have let him by anyway…….
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Arri Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
That’s the problem Ferrari were worried about, look at how aggressively Massa was defending a few laps prior and nearly touched with alonso and also remember…they touched in Valencia. Fernando had the pace to attack but Ferrari were having none of it which is why they took the route they did. Clearly they couldn’t keep Alonso behind Massa yet again, Alonso would not have obeyed that order and would most definitely have attacked Massa at the end. The rest would have been history..
panya Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Totally agree with you A.K.
Team orders are in every team like it or not. Some people either can’t uncode them or just refuse to accept that other teams use them as well in different shapes and forms.
I really want to see how next weekend result pan out. I am certain that Alonso will win and this whole issue will subdue.
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malcolm.strachan Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
“In future, all team orders should be banned for the first half of the season to stop any team having a deliberate policy of a favoured driver from the start of the season and team orders can only come into play once the mathematical chance of one of the drivers winning the WDC is finished.”
You do realize that it IS the latter half of the season, right? Hockenheim was the 11th of 19 Grands Prix.
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JimmiC Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
I think the point was, Massa is still in the title hunt, especially with the increase of points for the podiums. A few Alonso retirements (or stewards penalties) and the situation is turned about.
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Brent McMaster Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 3:01 am
Massa needed 80 points to tie what Hamilton had. How was he still in the hunt?
Eric Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:22 am
Brent, Raikkonen came from a similar distance back (in the old points system). Anything can happen in Formula 1 – and it usually does. (M. Walker).
Brent McMaster Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
I found Kovalainen moving out of the road at Hockenheim in ‘08 almost identical. Kovalainen was no more subtle then Massa, yet nothing was said. The FIA has just as much fault as Ferrari for not enforcing their own rules. I have know problem with having a #1,2 system at a team, as long as it is stated in the contract the driver signs. I don’t understand why it was not clear to Massa before the race that Alonso was finishing ahead of him. Alonso was beside him at one point, Massa just had to come onto the gas slightly slower and it would be done.
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Zobra Wambleska Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
This is a well reasoned response and I agree with it. The one exception would be to make the cut off at the 2/3rd mark, as opposed to the half way point in the season.
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Mart Hugh Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:53 am
Damian suggests
>All driver contracts to be vetted by FIA for evidence of inconsistency with FIA rules on team orders.
I see where you are coming from, but this is a little naive. Contracts are often woven with nuance which are known internally to mean one thing, but externally to mean another. I really dont think this suggestion will hold water. And anyway just think of the cost of administering it compared to the amount of control and confidence it is likely to return.
The only certainly for me out of all this uncertainty on this topic is that the first thing the FIA need to do is lift the ban on team orders because it is toothless and makes a mockery of any other regulations which are non-negotiables.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 1:55 pm
Team orders should be reintroduced and all radio transmissions from pit to car concerning them should be broadcast so that the viewers know exactly what’s happening on track.
It was a great move by the host broadcaster to relay Rob Smedley’s message to Massa. Remember it wasn’t that long ago that we weren’t privy to ANY Ferrari radio transmissions…
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Heffalump Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
That was our luck as since Hockenheim all radio transmissions from all the cars are being made available to the broadcaster. Perhaps Ferrari weren’t aware of this. Or, which sounds more convincing, certain members of the team were very aware of this. It would have been interesting, though, to have Massa’s reaction relayed. Too funny if his first words had been “this is ridiculous”.
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Phil Curry Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Ironically, this was the first race where ALL team radio was open to FOM, the broadcaster of most F1 races. Before Germany, teams had the option as to whether radio could be made public or not, by pushing a button that seperated the radio feed from public channels to a private one. That button was unable to be used at Hockenheim
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Rafael L Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 6:38 am
I wish the radio transmission could be downloaded
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Ewan Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
I think what ade suggests is a suitable compromise, let teams do what they want, but try and make them be honest about their actions and the reasoning behind it too.
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Christos Pallis Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Totally agree, it was brilliant to get those messages aired as it happened!
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mtb Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
…or any McLaren communications for that matter!
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Simon G Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
What about the viewers at the track ? how are they supposed to know what is going on ?
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Well you could say that about F1 generally!
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BurgerF1 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
I’ve found that spending the extra money on a Kangaroo TV greatly enhances the ability to follow the subtler developments on track. The radio broadcasts can be heard on them, and in fact, they often broadcast more than what is being sent out to the main feed.
F1_Dave Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
wasn’t down to a local host broadcaster, every race bar monaco and suzuka is handled by fom.
was also quietly agreed just prior to hockenheim that fom now have access to all team radio so teams are no longer to block access to certain broadcasts.
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Hans Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
I fully agree with this one. Make teamorders legal again and make things transparent to the viewer.
Let’s face it, if Ferrari would have done a 2s longer pitsstop with Massa due to a “wheel nut problem” one would have known Ferrari played it but no one could do anything against it.
To me it is the way Ferrari handled it. Yesterday everybody knew what happened because it was played this indifferent way. I think this is causing all these boiled reactions.
But because there is so much at stake, teamorders will always be there, like it or not. There are just to many examples of this in recent years.
So either choose to accept it and make things transparent or know that you have been cheated but can not do anything about it.
In the end, the race result will be just the same.
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Leigh O'Gorman Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
That wasn’t the host broadcaster – that was FOM. Bernie’s boys (and girls) knew exactly what they were doing when they broadcast that
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rodrigo Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 6:33 am
uhmmm… didn’t Bernei say something like “if there are no fires I set them”? This fire certainly has gone viral and will keep F1 interested over the summer break until the hearing… this will force the teams to reword the rule, not eliminating team orders completely, but clearing them up as to when they are allowed… enough to “spice up the show” but keep it a sport with the concept of fair play… isn’t Mac principal having a quiet chat with Ferrari? I wonder about what? Bernei is a freaking genius!!!!
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Galapago555 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Brilliant point, mate!!
chris scott Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
That broadcaster would be FOM as it is at all races. I agree its good that the radio has been opened up. I wonder if the lack of the read button is what caught ferrari out this time
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Ivan Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
That’s because the F60 is a box with 4 wheels?
Back to the topic, I’m all for legalising team orders, cause that will bring in more intense competition.
Sidenote: James, for this year’s Singapore GP is there any fan session organised?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 1:56 pm
Team orders should not be allowed whilst a driver is in contention for the championship by winning 50% of the remaining points.
E.G Driver has 200 points in championship, there are 100 points left to win this means if he wins 50% of the points left his maximum is 250 points
A.If the leader of the championship has more than 250 points then the team may use orders in respect of this driver.
B. If the leader of the championship has less than 250 points then the team may not use orders in respect of this driver.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 1:58 pm
The FIA should recognise that their Rule is unworkable and needs changing. ‘No team orders’ is unrealistic in a team sport. It is fairer all round not to ‘coerce’ a driver into ‘consenting’ to favour his team mate, ‘for the good of the team’. Let the driver do it under openly given team orders.
They are racing drivers. They know the score. If a driver wants to avoid team orders let him dominate his team mate. It is part of the job. It is hard on the dominated party but they didn’t enter F1 for an easy ride.
That may make some drivers opt for weaker teams and number on status. What is wrong with that? It is their choice.
It does not detract from the spectacle if the rules are known to the public and the teams are honest about it.
Teams want to maximise points for the constructor’s championship. That in itself limits the damage to the weaker driver.
Can a driver really claim to fight for the world championship if he cannot dominate the driver in the same car? Would that be a worthy world champion?
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rodrigo Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 6:54 am
I agree with the general idea of team orders… the team wants *both* the WDC (for sponsor & marketing $$$) and the WCC for engineering prestige and $$ from FIA. The logic behind the ferrari team order makes sense from a business case in order to strengthen the WDC chase. Having said that…
FA’s obvious 1-2 swap did not annoy me too much (my sense of fair play and an honest win at odds with the team’s objective to win both championships), just surprised it was so obvious as it is supposed to be against the sporting regulations.
What made me sick to my stomach, and obviously the media present at the press conference, was once I saw FM’s reaction after the race… he was not happy. It seemed to me he allowed the swap under duress, he was forced to hand over his win to the slightly faster (at race pace) team mate.
Driver’s know the score, they know their chances of winning the WDC, they know they work for a team, and I think that unless they hate their team mate, they are likely to help him win races… in which case I would expect the team drivers to be jubilant for the team for a 1-2.
That was not the case with FM and FA because it was a 1-2 swap FM didn’t want to do… how to fix this for the future? Maybe not allowing 1-2 swaps until leading driver is mathematically out of the WDC would an option. This way no one can say the driver was coerced, he has no chance of of the WDC, so he should concede the win for the good of the team.
Letting a faster teammate through should be acceptable if not for a 1-2 swap, this way the faster driver can challenge the race leaders for more points, like Hamilton & Heikki in 2008.
In any event, I expect changes to this rule for next year, changes that give teams flexibility to maximize points, and make it fair for the drivers so a driver is not forced to do a 1-2 swap under duress like Masa and Baricello.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:00 pm
Great post James,
In my mind, anything limiting team orders is very hard to police. The only truly effective thing would be one car per team! Even in that case engine supplier issues and other interdependencies may very well play a role in the outcome. I am content that a sport that competitiive as Formula 1 will always create ground for such issues.
Moreover, the phenomena is twofold: (1) sometimes teammates are obliged to give away track position as was the case with Massa here, on the other hand (2) teammates sometimes will just tend to risk more when confronted with each other (Turkey RBR, or Alonso pitlane overtake in China, also I am inclined to say that Hamilton repass on Button in Turkey are allo good examples). I doubt that any of these moves would have also been done in a non teammate scenario.
In my mind the negative effects of (1) are more or less balanced by the extra spectacle and unpredictability of (2). I also see a pattern in terms of the team orders issue (1) where in certain cases the public condemns the case (Austria 2002 or Germany 2010) while as James pointed it out validly other quite apparent team orders are not followed by such negative feelings from the fans. At this point, however, I depart from James and take the view that the general public problem always arises where the recipient of the team order (BAR/MAS) does not want to obey and wants to use the negative media as a means against its own team.
So in a sense I would say that somehow punishing “martyr” behaviour would improve things….I am sure economics have already looked into this matter (which basically revolves around game theory) and smart policing is achievable at least to counterbalance these kind of public martyrdoms if not team orders.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:02 pm
In any other sport telling a competitor to act so they don’t win is called fixing and lands people in court.
It’s almost impossible to prevent a lengthened pitstop, a call to change fuel mixture etc can all acheive the same effect.
There are two different questions: first what to do if one car is clearly faster than the other, but behind – do you (1) Tell the faster following driver he can’t attempt to overtake or (2) Tell the leading driver that his teammate will attack, and not to defend as stoutly as he would against a car from another team, or do you (3) tell him to pull over and wave the other guy through, or do you (4) say “Well if Fernando thinks he’s going to be world champion he might have to pass his own team mate on the track on merrit once or twice in a season.”
My heart says (4) but post Turkey Red-Bull would not agree. What we got, in effect was option (3) which looks dreadful. Ferrari maintained that they told Massa to expect an attack, not what he should do if it came, and he lamely moved out of the way.
That’s different from saying before the race “Even if driver a is faster, he must let driver B win”. When winning a championship can depend on a driver doing that we all know, and a team will usually come out and say so beforehand. 8 races left is too early for a team to back one driver – it could still be Massa who finishes higher up in the championship, and wouldn’t be an Irony if he lost it by fewer than five points.
The best quote on the subject appeared in the Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/ferrari/7909957/F1-German-Grand-Prix-Ferrari-cheats-Felipe-Massa-and-Fernando-Alonso-fail-media-trial.html
*Fernando, where will this victory rank in your career? Is it up there with Singapore 2008?
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JF Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
F1 is a team sport. It would only be race fixing if a team did something on purpose to cause itself or another team to win a race illegitimately (like Renault did). Switching two drivers on the same team is not race fixing as the victory goes to the team either way and no other competing team is affected.
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Another James Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 9:43 am
In F1 the competitors are the drivers not the teams (who are entrants).
It isn’t like football where the result is the result whichever team member scores the goals.
If it were a horse race and the trainer told two Jockeys from his stable which order they should finish he’d end up in court. But there is a team of people getting the horses ready …
Alonso has form when it comes to unsportsmanlike behaviour: his time at McLaren and Hungary in particular. Did he really know nothing about Piquet’s action in Singapore ? Passing Massa in the pitlane, and now this.
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Arri Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 3:36 pm
Another James: To me it looks like your issue is with Alonso rather than with what FERRARI…yes you read it correctly ….Ferrari as a TEAM decided. I think this is also the major issue here cause if the exact same thing happened and it was lets say…Fisi moving for Massa there wouldn’t be half the furor there is now….don’t you think?
Another James Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Arri, I have an issue with Alonso’s unsporting behavior, but I have a bigger problem with Ferrari fixing races (Barrichello moving over for Schumacher), even the Mclaren incident where Coulthard moved over for Hakkinen felt wrong (and that wasn’t a team order)
Given that (as the only team still getting Tobacco money) Ferrari have deep pockets they’d probably think paying $20,000 per point to move points from their #2 driver to their #1 is quite a bargain. We’ll have to see what the council says when they go over it, because the precedent is you CAN issue team orders and write a cheque. I hope the council says the penalty should be disqualification even if that is suspended in this case.
JF Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
I would still argue that Ferrari didn’t fix the race based on my previous comment. The teams are the competitors and the individuals drive for the team. The driver switch did not affect any other team. I do agree with you regarding Alonso’s behavior, he should have just manned up and thanked Massa rather than make up a lame story about how he was able to pass him.
July 26th, 2010 @ 2:07 pm
Drivers should only be ordered to move over for their team mate when they are mathematically incapable of winning the drivers championship. Until then all drivers should be racing.
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eric bhoy Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Agree. This is the most simple but logical solution as it put things into perspective like the Massa / Kimi switch in 2007
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:08 pm
Some interesting points James.
However I think the big difference between the historic events and yesterday is down to Bernie Ecclestone. That might sound a bit bizarre until we think about it.
There are two significant changes – both technological.
The first is down to the gearboxes and the sheer amount of data created by a car. Nobody was certain that a fluffed gear change was hiding a team’s orders to allow a team mate pass. It happened so easily and frequently (especially when under pressure) that these events were not questioned.
The second is down to Bernie’s efforts to enhance the show. Certainly in schumacher’s early days we did not hear the team radio conversations and on board camera footage was rare.
ferrari’s biggest crime yesterday was bringing the sport into disrepute – for which it should be punished harshly – preferably by the very least removing Alonso’s undeserved 25 points.
The rules ban team orders and, therefore, unless the FIA are planning to abandon this rule they need to make an example of ferrari’s cynical abuse of the current rule.
Without hearing the team radio this would not have been anything like as bad. ferrari are obviously guilty of a lack of thought – far too many are guilty of disregarding the way the media has given such wide access to all sports. This furore is no different to tennis players who get fined for inappropriate outbursts.
I feel that nobody really complains about a driver helping his team mate seal a championship – once his own chances are effectively finished. Most drivers would feel honoured to have made sure a team mate won a title and, as such would more than likely choose to move over without any need for public encouragement.
It would not hurt if the team orders rule was abandoned… as long as all team radio transmissions were adequately monitored and any orders (tacit or otherwise) for a driver to move over resulted in the automatic loss of all points as they are damaging to the “sport”.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:10 pm
How about a simple rule which says that no contract between a driver and team may contain a clause which could be interpreted as giving him a right to track position relative to his team mate?
This leaves the door open to consensual orders which are in the interests of a team’s championship pursuit in that final third of the season, but stops a driver being legally subordinated in an entirely artificial manner.
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A.K. Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:41 am
I don’t think this is the case with Massa anyhow, as he wouldn’t/shouldn’t have taken it so badly if it were.
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JF Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Has any of the “experts” frequenting comment boards ever seen an F1 contract: FA or MSC for example. There is no proof that anyone ever has had a contract forcing him/her to to be number two or allowing someone to be number 1. That said, I suppose many will believe what they want regardless of proof (eg. Loch Ness monster and alien abductions).
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:11 pm
James, as a brief aside to the Massa/Alonso incident, there was also the moment where Petrov was told by his engineer to adjust his shift pattern to avoid engine damage or to conserve fuel. I thought I heard the engineer say something along the lines of: “…If you don’t do this we will have to adjust the mapping/settings” (sorry but I am paraphrasing as I cannot remember exactly what he said). Did you hear that order and, if so, what did you make of it? Does this mean that the team could dynamically upload a new throttle mapping to the car without the driver’s consent/knowledge as I thought this was forbidden under the rules? Wouldn’t this be yet another way the teams could affect the race result (in addition to subtle – or not so subtle – ‘fuel save’ codes, ‘accidental’ pitstop finger trouble etc..)?
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Tim B Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:08 pm
The engineer was telling him to change up early into top gear, and saying that if he couldn’t manage it then they’d have to go to a different engine map.
Martin Brundle interpreted this as a requirement to save fuel, with a threat to go to a very conservative fuel-saving mode if Petrov couldn’t manage it manually by changing into top early.
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Jeff Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Thanks Tim for stating what was said more clearly than I recalled. What I was wondering, with respect to the team orders controversy, was whether it is possible (and legal) for a team to remotely force a switch to a new engine mapping onto the car without the driver’s consent or even knowledge. I do remember a rule from a few years back stating that telemetry can only be downloaded from the car and not uploaded to it. Do you, or does anyone else, know if this is still the case?
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John O'Neill Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
A few months ago on a late evening train out of London Liverpool Street I had a couple of ex-F1 engineers (one Renault, one Cosworth) talking too loudly on the table opposite about some of special projects they had worked on whilst in F1.
One of the things the Renault guy mentioned was that they could remotely change car settings by locating a team member out on the back of track, with a box that could establish an infra-red link to the car (downside being that it would need line-of-sight to the car to work, much like a TV remote control)
Presumably by operating in the infra-red frequency range, and basing an employee outside of the pits, it could get around the detection of two-way telementry, which is banned (and hence why I was so intrigued to eavesdrop on their conversation!)
Not sure how accurate what they were saying was, but it certainly sounded convincing at the time.
July 26th, 2010 @ 2:15 pm
I honestly can’t get past the idea that a driver who wins only because another driver lets him past simply is not the rightful winner. No matter what the circumstances or what part of the season it is. Clearly, I have a lot to learn.
(I’m not saying that sarcastically, by the way. I know I do have a lot to learn!)
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A.K. Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 5:44 am
So long as there are multiple cars per team you’ll have plenty of chances to learn the lesson.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:15 pm
If a driver has NO mathematical chance of the title, then and only then, are team orders acceptable.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
If Alonso was so much faster, then surely he would, could and should have past Massa. Then it would be up the pair of them to drive sensibly and avoid taking each other out. For such a large and influential organisation, Ferrari appears to lack a degree of intelligence when it comes to handling PR…
And Alonso – yes he is a great driver but he’s also got a massive ego which is increasingly showing him in an extremely negative and unpopular light. I wish he’d just stop whining and throwing his toys out of the pram, every time something goes wrong. Maybe he has been on the end of some dubious stewards’ decisions, but get over it dude. Act like a man, not like a spoilt brat. Let your driving do the talking.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:18 pm
the rule should say “team orders on switching positions between team mates is banned until the moment one of them has no mathematical chances of winning the championship” thanx
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bill Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
as for driver not fighting for the championship the rule should say ” team orders on switching positions between team mates are banned until the moment one of them has no mathematical chance of beating the other one in final championship standings”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
A few years ago Lewis had his race result annulled when he was caught telling porkies to the stewards. As Alonso and Massa have clearly been caught doing the same then at the very least they should both be retrospectively thrown out of the race. And if Ferrari don’t have the balls to admit they fixed the positions then they should follow a similar fate.
As a fan you have no idea how pissed off I get when I see results being so blatantly fixed. I suspect I am not alone.
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Cabby Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:24 pm
You are not
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Mart Hugh Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:19 am
You are not alone. And I have no strong allegiance to any particular team, I just love the sport.
What I dont get is, if Alonso was really that much faster then why didnt he have a crack at overtaking (Red Bull/MacLaren style). The guy is unmistakably a fast driver, but his antics of his time at McLaren in 2008, his “convenient” win at Singapore last year and the last race, means he hardly comes up smelling of roses. Alonso is has quite a bit of baggage.
Astonishingly though, he does not seem to care how gifted a win was. If I was able to compete at a high level in any sport, I would only want to win if I was best. What does it mean for competitors when the guy who is second best is gifted the gold medal. What on earth do the people in control of the regulation think that it means to the viewers when the whole outcome of a race is a sham.
Formula 1, 2010. Possibly at its lowest ebb for decades.
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John Gibson Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 8:08 am
Yes, F1 2010 – at its lowest ebb since Peter Collins gave Juan Manuel Fangio his car at Monza so that Fangio could have half of the car’s points and win the title by 2 points over…Collins.
Or perhaps its lowes ebb since Fangio very clearly drove slowly to allow Stirling Moss to win at Aintree.
Or perhaps its lowest ebb since Gilles Villeneuve was informed prior to the 1979 season that the intention of the team was for Jody Scheckter to be its championship contender from the very outset of the season.
Doe this hysterical clap-trap about how awful team orders are have no end?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
but what constitutes a “team order”
Telling your drivers they can race?
Giving your lead race driver information for him to make up his mind?
Telling your lead race driver to back off to save fuel whilst his team mate is right behind him and is not told same instruction?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
Very well written James and I totally share your view.
Everyone understands team orders will always exist in one form or another, it’s impossible to take it of out the sport, as Massa could have easily ‘run wide’ at a corner and gave Alonso the place that way, or there are really an infinite amount of possibilities.
I really hope the result stands as Alonso was the better driver over the weekend anyway.
But what this has also shown is the difference in class and experience between Christian Horner and Martin Whitmarsh.
Horner is pushing this hoping for Ferrari to be disqualified for RBRs own gain, whilst Whitmarsh is showing a bit of class and style to his management even though McLaren can benefit from the disqualification of Ferrari. I feel MW stands much more for the FOTA unity whereas Horner just wants to win the Championships and doesn’t care so much about the bigger picture.
Formula 1 has always been dubbed a team sport so whatever is best for the team should be allowed, this type of thing happens in many sports where some ‘takes one for the team.’ If the drivers are not happy with the situation they can leave or should sign a contract that says they will not be subject to any team orders. Either way it should be down to the driver and the team rather than the FiA to decide.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:22 pm
I feel that the teams are caught in a contradictory situation within F1. On the one hand, the team has to win but inevitably that can only mean one driver winning the WDC. On the other, it cannot do everything it wants to win because it is not allowed to operate team strategies to engineer that win in a particularly tight points scenario for that one driver. That risks handing the WDC to another team. What on earth do people expect them to do?
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Mart Hugh Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:24 am
Chris Partrige said :
“On the one hand, the team has to win but inevitably that can only mean one driver winning the WDC.”
What?
Do you really think that that the points that Ferrari received in the constructors championship at the last grand prix were different because they swapped drivers ?
Are you watching a different sport to the rest of us?
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Chris Partridge Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
True — if you feel the CC has the same prestige as the WDC for the team. And that was my point.
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Damian Johnson Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Answer: Do what the other teams do and let their drivers race without team orders.
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Chris Partridge Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:29 pm
What would you do if you were a Team Principal in the following situation: last race of the season, one driver is leading but is 40 points behind his team-mate who is just 24 points away from the WDC and second in the race. If that driver does not win, the WDC goes to a rival team. Would any team seriously allow free driver racing?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:22 pm
I couldn’t really comment, as I turned off the TV after the switch. Many other people did too and that’s what F1 should be worried about.
I was looking forward to a good battle; indeed Alonso had already been all over Massa earlier in the race. Ferrari should have pitted them differently, and put Massa on “fuel saving” to enable ALO to put in some hot laps. Switching the way they did just ruined the race. Waste of my afternoon.
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Simon R Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
I couldn’t agree more. Allowing team orders = making fans turn off the telly. Banning team orders = teams risk losing lots of points if caught breaking rules. Strict enforcement will lead to less unsporting behaviour.
Its like saying diving is just part of football and should be tolerated. If they gave cards for diving based on tv evidence after a game, you’d see a lot less diving. Would it eliminate diving altogther? No, it wouldn’t. But it would vastly improve the spectacle which is what matters most of all to fans, who ultimately are the ones who pay the team’s bills.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:22 pm
If Massa has won the race, and Alonso 2nd, the gap would now be 24 points between the two drivers, or 10 points in old money. For me that does not mean team orders should be used as this article suggests.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:23 pm
I don’t understand how you can come to the conclusion that banning team orders would be artificial. Any instance where a driver pulls aside for his team mate is an artificial move, artificially altering the championship. It is a race and every car regardless of colour should be overtaken fairly. If a driver decides to do so of his own accord, when he feels he is completely out of the championship, then fair enough. But the team should have no say.
I’ve watched a lot of the Aussie V8 Supercars recently and have been impressed with the amount of overtaking going on between team mates, regardless of championship chances. Some have ended in disaster, but they just shrug their shoulders and get on with it. That is sport. What we saw on Sunday wasn’t.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:24 pm
It’s the blatant lying about the situation and the cynical way Ferrari carried out the move. An easier way to clarify the rule could be to say it’s allowed when only one driver is mathematically out of the running for the Championship.
I think there is a huge difference between making a switch on the track as we saw yesterday and favouring one driver through upgrades, strategy or whatever.
Banning Ferrari would be an over reaction, disqualifying the team from constructor points and possibly driver points from the German Grand Prix wouldn’t be.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:25 pm
I was dissapointed with the fine of 100K only instead of at least 1MM.
That team order damaged the show should Vettel caught Alonso behind slow Massa.
The team order was in interest of Alonso only because they seemed to make up their mind to Massa being past over by Vettel.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:25 pm
Team orders that will change the result of a race should only be invoked when one driver does not have a mathmatical chance of winning the championship.
Asking drivers to hold station will not necessarily change the result of a race, but asking a driver to let another pass will. If the driver in front is in no position mathmatically to challenge for the title, then the team can ask for him to help.
As for this race, Ferrari should lose the points they gained – however the drivers should keep their points. This was a team order, not a driver order.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:26 pm
I don’t think it’s team orders that are the real problem – i think it’s the way in which Rob Smedley and Ferrari handled it which let the media make such a big deal of it. Like you said James, if it had been a subtle switch nobody would have minded.
That said, they did break the rules – so should be punished, and $100k doesn’t seem big enough to fit the crime. I would like to see both drivers keep their points, but, Ferrari to lose the 43 constructors points. Some have suggested switching the position of the two Ferrari’s, but, this would be rewarding Massa for agreeing to the team orders and breaking the rules while punishing Alonso (who while not innocent) was put in a position where he had to over take Massa. Was he to stop behind him and insist Massa stayed in front? Massa was put in a position no driver wants to be in and i understand why he did what he had to do.
How to stop it happening in future ? Either scrap the rule, or, enforce it heavily so no team will be prepared to take the risk of repeating what happened.
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Phil Curry Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
$100k is the maximum amount of money the stewards at a Grand Prix meeting can fine anyone. Any higher fines must be handed down by the WMSC
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:26 pm
Overblown? Now you are insulting our in itelligence too James, like Ferrari?
It wasn’t the fact they did it, it was the WAY they did it that makes this a farce and a shame to F1.
When Ferrari did it in 2002, they got a 1 million dollar fine and it wasn’t even against the rules back then (!).
Now it is against the rules and just a 100K fine? And they will just get a stern talking from the WMSC, that’s it.
They should be stripped off the points, period.
Nobody pretends there are no team orders in other teams over the years and present day. There are obviously.
But this was way too blatant, obvious and insulting to the viewer. And they did it a few races too soon. The fact Alonso was whining like a little baby how ‘ridiculous’ it was and demanding everyone to just let him pass also doesn’t help.
He comes across as a very nasty backstabbing kind of person.
Ferrari did it the wrong way. It is not overblown, they broke the rules, insulted the intelligence of the viewers and then lied about it in the press conferences and interviews. Like we are all stupid.
Disqualification is the only way…if F1 wants to be seen as a serious…ahum….sport.
Also, next time Webber is told to let Vettel pass because he is ‘faster’, or he gets an update that Webber won’t, I except none of the people who defend Ferrari now to whine then, including Coulthard, Brundle and you James
Because RBR would say ‘we think Vettel has a better chance of winning the championship’, which is what Ferrari and the defenders of Ferrari are now uing as excuse to break the rules. So why all the drama 2 weeks ago by the same lot who now defend Ferrari?
Bias is the answer.
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AgBNYC Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Bias? So the fact that other drivers this year have received reprimands or penalties that resulted in nothing other than a nod to the pit crew are perfectly ok? Hamilton was penalized for overtaking the safety car – yet the penalty meant nothing. He could’ve easily been black flagged – but was defended in that he was “punished” and can’t be held responsible for the punishment not costing him. Fine. Ferrari was punished – “fined” and what Ferrari did, did not affect the result of other cars/teams in the race…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:27 pm
James there is a wider issue that you haven’t touched on here. It was an obvious team order, clear for all to see. For ferrari to come out and bare faced lie about it, repeatedly contradicting reality and each other is taking us all for fools. We didn’t like it.
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Arri Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Ferrari have no choice really. I’m sure they didn’t expect Rob and Massa to behave that way which, lets be frank, is what caused this whole issue. If Ferrari admit to it they can and probably will face serious penalties. Besides, it’s been happening all the time and all other teams deny it yet we know they are lying….why all the fuss now? No one was calling for RB to be banned over the front wing issue or Mclaren’s “save fuel” orders when we all know the underlying meaning to all of those “orders” As Sam said….bias and the fact that Alonso is involved…nothing more nothing less
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:28 pm
Like with the Hamilton weaving incident and then his issue with the safety car – it would be more appropriate to just clarify and maybe tweak some rules to clear up what is and what is not acceptable, so that this doesn’t happen again.
It was the cynical nature of the team order that riled people the most. It ruined the race – because after Massa allowed Alonso through, was Massa then banned from trying to re-take the place? I would imagine he would have just given up and concentrated on staying ahead of Vettel. This is anti-competitive and spoils the fun for paying spectators and for the people watching at home. If I’d paid to watch the race, I’d have felt robbed.
I do think it was made worse by the fact it was a pretty dull race anyway, and there are lots of people overreacting also. But something needs to be done to stop the races being manipulated like this so early in the season.
If it’s, as James said, the last race of the season and the championship is at stake, fair enough. If it had been like that, Massa would gladly have moved aside and no one would have a problem with it. It’s different if he’s ORDERED to do it though. It should be his choice. He earned the right to stand on top of the podium and it was taken away from him which is not right – the record books will forever record this race as an Alonso win which isn’t right.
Maybe a gentleman’s agreement within FOTA or something like that is needed?
Or maybe you could allow team orders, but strip a team of constructors points in any race it uses team orders?
I don’t think there’s any way to stop it other than for the teams to agree amongst themselves to have more respect for the fans and only make these cynical moves when there is more at stake.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:28 pm
Team orders should be allowed, this is a TEAM sport, i agree with Ade, all radio transmissions concerning this are should be broadcast so we the fans can see what is happening and understand why it is happening.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:28 pm
My problem with the arguments made by the pro-team orders people in the last 24 hours is that pretty much all occasions can be covered by one driver conceding that the other has the best chance to win the championship and doing the gentlemanly thing and letting him through. The same occurs when two drivers for the same team are on different strategies and it does not benefit either for one to hold the other up.
In such circumstances it would be absolutely fine for one driver to choose to give advantage to the other and I would support them in doing so. Where problems occur is where the team dictates to their driver that they will no longer be allowed to compete for the championship.
What Ferrari did in Germany was to effectively tell Massa to give up on this year because he won’t be able (or allowed) to beat Alonso, despite the fact that it appeared he was finally getting back to form, was beating Alonso fair and square (especially after Alonso messed up his shot at overtaking), and was within one DNF or Alonso in the points.
If Alonso is as good as he thinks he is then he should have been able to get past on track, instead the win had to be gift wrapped and handed to him.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:28 pm
They should in my view be allowed to some extend. The idea in such isn’t bad at all but it’s not fair to deny a driver the chance of fighting for the championship.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
Maybe a rule forbidding a driver with a mathematical chance of winning the championship from pulling over could be introduced.
That would allow team orders in crucial stages of the championship and everyone would know it would happen if they’re running together on the track. And it would be fair on the Massa in that situation as he would only have to concede position because he was slower in the rest of the year.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
well, its a matter of real not understanding the sport for favouring any farther sanctions on the scuderia Ferrary.
If you do (or if you are a Ferrary fan) than u know that 4 Ferrary , it’s rather “now or not this seasson”.
Albeit ,like u’v very clearly written, they could have done that in a diff. way 4 the nonunderstanding peoples w’ont have to “cry” so much. ( like did both of the Israelie’s commentators….).
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
teams should possibly be allowed to “switch” their drivers points but not their positions. so yesterday for example, massa wins but only gets the points for second and alonso comes second but gets points for win. this only to be allowed if two cars are not split by another. [McClaren, Ferrari, Ferrari: yes / Ferrari, McClaren, Ferrari: no]. Alternatively points could be added together and then split between both drivers. Admit it is messy, but at least the real ‘winner’ finishes the line first.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
I certainly wouldn’t take the ham-fisted approach that Ferrari did, with a very obvious switching of positions and then an inconsistent message being delivered by the drivers and team management. That Fernando’s approach came across as so arrogant as to impress that his win had nothing to do with Massa’s moving aside irked the press and the fans even more.
Indeed, it is Ferrari’s arrogance and sheer bloody-mindedness in spite of the wealth of evidence that it continues to deny it pulled the switch.
Has Ferrari broken the rules? More than likely. Does their alleged disregard of the rules show them to be thumbing their noses at the governing body? Almost certainly.
How the FIA and the World Motor Sports Council responds to this is going to set the precedent for years to come. If they penalise Ferrari heavily, they will look foolish for their years of inaction where team orders blatantly occurred post-2002, but where the authorities (and the fans, as you pointed out, James) turned a blind eye. Let Ferrari off scot-free, and it then sends the message to all teams that it can disregard the letter and spirit of the rules and get slapped with a feather for doing so.
A $100,000 fine is a drop in the ocean for the Scuderia. You can’t even buy an entry-level new Ferrari for that money.
But at the end of the day, I understand and accept that Formula 1 is a team sport, and there will be times when allowing your drivers free reign to race each other can backfire just as badly as when you try to manage the situation too closely. Just ask Red Bull after the Turkish Grand Prix, Williams in 1986 and McLaren in 2007.
What I’d simply ask is that the teams not treat the average fan like a complete moron when they’re going about it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
As for your question, a way forward would be Team Orders (TO) are permitted in the last 3 races if the 2nd drviers is more than 25 points behind the no.1 driver in the team.
As for Ferrari, well, i would take away there WCC for the German GP, that would hurt them as the WCC is very important to Ferrari.
It dosent matter if you think TO should be allowed or if Alonso was quicker..overtake, your a 2x WDC, its pathetic and if Alonso was my fav driver i would be ashamed he has two illegal wins.
Finally, as for Rob and Felipe making it clear was was happening, if they had not have done this, then we would all be bashing Massa for being slow and getting overtaken by Alonso again. He was going to loose out what ever he did, but I a glad we know.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
I like team orders. They are a great marketing scheme. I think maybe the FIA can introduce a subscription service whereby fans can pay a fee and get to know in advance which races will be fixed and on what lap. The remaining poor idiots like me can maybe place a bet with skybet on the lap on which the race will be manipulated.
Odds for Hungaroring
Laps – 1-20 – 10/1
Laps – 20-43 – 6/1
Laps – 43-70 – Evens
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BurgerF1 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:47 am
Poor are those that bet in any case. I don’t have much sympathy for the gamblers and bookies in the crowd. Team orders has been part of F1 since the sport began. You should be factoring it in when you make that bet!!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:31 pm
I believe team orders should be allowed, but only when one driver is mathematically out of the title race and Charlie Whiting can confirm with the teams when this is the case. Ok, there would be complications, but this seems to be the unofficial rule anyway. It then also lets the drivers know officially when they can expect assistance and when not.
Although then drivers with a clear Heikki will be at an advantage.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:31 pm
I could fully understand if this is done near the end of the season and massa was not able to win the wdc, then he is just helping his teammate.
We are only just over half way through this season, a couple of wins for massa and he could have been back in the championship.
This just highlights to me that this is what alonso demands, to be the number 1 driver. This is why he left mclaren because he was told to race. I mean what is wrong with alonso if he was quicker use your ability to overtake your teammate.
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Daniel Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
the other thing that really annoys me is that they seem to think the fans are really stupid.
This must have been discussed before the race so they could have made it more convincing if they wanted to do this. RS could have made the radio message less obvious and massa could have switched engine mixture so alonso got closer and maybe go deep into a corner, lock up.
By coming out of the hairpin at half throttle just looks a joke. Then he could have simply said oh a made a mistake and alonso got past
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:31 pm
Also, here is a definition of cheating:
“Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one’s own interest, and often at the expense of others. Cheating implies the breaking of rules.”
I think this a fair description of what happened yesterday.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:32 pm
Ferrari have broken a rule, they have lied to the press and will no doubt lie to the FIA. This is ok is it James? Cheating and lying is ok in certain circumstances, as long as you hide it well and don’t get caught. What a brilliant philosophy! I think you should be made an honoury Italian with that attitude.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
No It’s not okay. Read the article with a balanced view, not a Ferrari hating view
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Aaron James Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
I’m one of the most Ferrari-vicious F1 fans alive, but even I could see where JA is coming from.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:32 pm
Team orders should definitely be allowed.
The current ruling can easily be sidetracked by private discussion between the team and drivers beforehand.
Team orders have always existed in some form or another and will continue to do so.
I appreciate that for ‘fans’ its annoying (especially if you put a bet on Massa to win) to see drivers make way for a team mate in these circumstances, but thats MOTOR RACING.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
Some people are calling for the ‘no team orders’ rule to be dropped. This is a bad idea. It was in introduced in 2002 for a very good reason and that reason has not changed.
If it’s dropped all teams could be forced to adopt ‘team order’ strategies to be competitive, which could mean that half the field — all the No2 cars and drivers — will become ‘blockers’ with the remit just to defend their No1 drivers, get in the way of opposing teams cars. It will all so spoil the race for the spectators. Might we also see a new breed of driver — drivers with no chance of winning but with highly developed defensive skills?
Motor racing is not a team sport; it’s a sport where every driver who starts should be trying to win — and the rules should aim to ensure that each driver has a chance of winning if he can.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
id say that team orders should be allowed within a team only when one of its drivers is out of WDC battle.
I mean, that is what made Massa moving for Kimi and Kimi moving for Massa OK, they werent in championship battle and they helped a teammate when they couldnt win the title by them selves.
Massa was just a bit more than a win away from Alonso yesterday, thats like 12 points in last years system, and that isnt much considering that we have alot races to go.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
It is a knee-jerk rule that was badly implemented originally and which (unless you are living in some weird fantasy land) has been completely ignored by all the teams ever since.
The outcry against Ferrari is ridiculous. Losing a championship because a team-mate takes away vital points would make a mockery of F1 having teams at all.
Ferrari were (deliberately?) clumsy, but good on them for doing what they did: (1) because it was the right thing to do, and (2) because this has focussed attention on how weak this rule is.
All the teams have orders or find subtle ways to manage their drivers. JB held station behind Lewis on Sunday . . . where was the racing there? There are countless times when teams have told their drivers to hold station after the final pit-stops. Getting in a huff with Ferrari is just immature.
Essentially, people are just annoyed with Ferrari for not being subtle. What they are saying is that they applaud subtle flouting of the rules, but not obvious flouting of the rules. That’s an unsustainable, illogical and ignorant position for people to take. Do people want a championship to be won by the most ingenious deceit, or would they prefer to have everything open and above board?
I would suggest this change: if a team’s drivers finish in consecutive places, then both drivers should be awarded the points of the leading car. On Sunday, this would have meant Massa winning the race, but both he and Alonso getting 25 points for a race win. Similarly, both Lewis and JB would have got 10 points for finishing 4th.
This would stop the need for teams to switch drivers’ places and would even lead to racing where team-mates would try to nurse each other into the best possible position.
Yes, team-mates would not need to race each other for a single position, but it may even spur them on to overtake other drivers. For example, if Lewis needed to finish 3rd on Sunday to win the WDC and to stop JB (who, for the sake of the argument, is on identical points to him) then Lewis would know that he would have had to catch and overtake Vettel without JB also passing Vettel.
This is the only open and honest way of acting in the teams’ best interests without having to switch drivers on the track/pitlane to manufacture a result.
It is open, honest and transparent.
The FIA should act now to scrap this rule before any more GPs place.
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Josh M Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
No one like this idea?
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Arri Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
It’s makes sense to me
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Josh M Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
THANKS
Josh M Reply:
August 3rd, 2010 at 8:41 am
James – any thoughts on this idea? It is already proven in speedway where a team with a 1-2 finish means the second rider gets a “paid” first.
Instead of paying first, we award the points of the leading driver (so long as the team’s drivers finish consecutively) to both drivers: an incentive for drivers to race as a team (could lead to very interesting tactics with drivers backing each other up to help a team mate) and saves the need for team orders to put drivers into set positions.
It does everything the sport needs and puts an emphasis on team tactics.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
F1 is a team sport, why not combine the two drivers of the same team to achieve the championship as a pair. Or what about breaking the race distance to half by switching drivers for each race. I know it may sound absurd but you need to evolve the sport. Look at cricket for example. The evolution from test match to t-20 cricket has changed the game and t-20 cricket is generating a lot of revenue and breaking new grounds.
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Swarf69 Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 9:43 am
Cricket…That is no comparison, its boring and slow to start with. What BPM do you think the team get to on average >120BPM. At the end of the day, a driver has spent his life to win the WDC and will not want to share that one.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
No further punishment for Ferrari on this one – because as you say, every other team would do the same.
Here is a radical suggestion that I suspect will be laughed away by everyone, but here goes. Why not give the teams something to really think about: allow team orders, but if you use them in a race you sacrifice the constructors’ championship points you would otherwise receive. So you might enhance your chances of winning the drivers’ title, but you seriously compromise your constructors’ title chances. At this point they would, I think, really stop to consider whether the extra points for their favoured driver are really worth it, it would give the teams a stick with which to beat drivers who think the team is just about them (driver: “think about the championship” team: “we have two championships to consider”), and fans will know that a meaningful punishment has been applied. Query whether it demeans the constructors’ championship to do that, though.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:33 pm
I believe Team Orders (in any form) are a great blemish on the sport as a whole. People within F1 forget that they are there to entertain the fans who watch the sport and as a result, a “switch” like this only serves to make fans like myself feel cheated and leave the GP with a hollow feeling.
If Alonso wanted the win, he should have fought for it and won it properly. We have seen all season that “faster” cars have difficulty passing slower ones, and that’s one of the things that makes for great television and separates the men from the boys. Those drivers capable of making the moves get the wins – isn’t that all part of the spectacle of F1? Isn’t that why we’re all watching in the first place?
I honestly, hand on heart, would have bowed down and admitted what a superlative driver Alonso was should he have passed Massa with skill alone – and how fantastic would that have been for the sport? You only have to look back a few races to Turkey to find out how races should be fought between team mates (admittedly with varying degrees of success). One party rolling over and admitting defeat cheapens the whole sport.
You can begin to understand why Ferrari want to run three cars per season now…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:34 pm
I agree with Irvine (never thought I would say that) Massa made a real pig’s ear of things. All this stuff should be kept within the team. It’s true that the last few laps could have been exciting, with a defending Massa trying to keep in front of a faster Alonso. But this scenario would have sucked in Vettel onto the back of them and then anything could have happened. It was a no-brainer for Team Ferrari and one they could easily justify. Pity the ‘pass’ was executed in such a gormless way.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:34 pm
Dear James,
instead of the 2/3 of the Championship rule you propose, it might make more sense to allow team orders when one driver is no longer mathematically in the title fight.
AP
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:34 pm
James, if the FIA decide to reintroduce the legality of team orders, I will have no problem with that. After watching the coverage yesterday and listening to the views of those involved in F1, it would certainly be the consensus that that would be the way to go.
I have two main (yes, I have other minor ones!) problems with what Ferrari did yesterday:
1. It’s Alonso’s job to get past the competition and win races. He had one chance in the race and couldn’t make it stick, and the fact that he was being Massa for so long actually shows me that no, he wasn’t the better or the faster driver. If he was either of those, he shouldn’t have needed to be gifted a win. If he can’t win a race on his own, he’s clearly not the standard of a world champion.
2. I am not a stupid person. Neither is anyone involved with F1, and neither are the millions of viewers worldwide, and I object to the way in which Ferrari treated us all like idiots. Like you said, they could have bungled a pit stop, and noone would be any wiser. But to blatently go on the radio and give that message just shows that Ferrari truly believe that they are above the sport and above the rules. Even more so when you look at the way that they lied through their teeth afterwards. And that to me is the definition of bringing the sport into disrepute. I was ashamed to be a F1 fan yesterday.
I personally believe most of the problem here lies with Alonso acting like a petty, spoilt child, and unfortunately, scared of his temprement, Ferrari caved to him. If Button had been asked to move for Hamiton, or vice versa, or any of the other teams, he would be the loudest voice out there shouting for them to be punished.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:35 pm
Remove the ban on team orders, it’s virtually impossible to police and all the teams break it.
As you mention the 2007 title decider, there is also the 2008 German GP incident at the same corner as the Massa thing involving Lewis and Heikki, both moves were team orders yet nothing was done.
To call it cheating or match fixing doesn’t really show an understanding of the sport. I see it like cycling at this point, we’ve completed about half the stages and it’s now time to push ypur best rider to the front of the pack when possible. That’s what Ferrari did, and that’s what I believe every team manager (including Eddie Jordan) would do in the same situation, Ferrari have a chance to win both titles this year, they have to try and take that chance.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:36 pm
Team orders are going to happen irrespective of any rule. Banning them in the first two thirds of the season, the first half or any of those ideas will have little effect. Just as we’ve seen the limited effect of the outright ban. If a team feels the need to order its drivers to change the result of the race it will do so, whether it’s the final corner of the championship deciding grand prix, or to satisfy the petulance of a stroppy superstar.
In my opinion, to try to legislate team strategy out of a team sport is both silly and unworkable. F1 is a team sport, without the team the drivers are (to steal DC’s phrase) sitting on track in just their underpants. The FIA should reinforce this, remove the silly team orders ban and make public any radio transmissions around this.
I disagree, however, that calling Ferrari cheats is too strong. They deliberately broke a rule to gain an advantage. What is that if it’s not cheating? It may be an ill-conceived rule, but still…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:36 pm
F1 is for the drivers championship. Sports cars are for team championships.
What the FIA should do: ban all pit to car radio communication. Yes, it is radical and so will never be adopted but it would solve the problem of team orders and make the strategy a lot more interesting.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
For me there’s a few of things to not lose sight of in this.
1 If Ferrari wish to put there eggs in FA’s basket that’s up to them but do not be so arrogant about it and do it on fuel save or whatever. Don’t take the P**s and be so blatant! That way we all smell a rat but accept that if that’s the way they go racing then fair enough.
2 Ferrari were relying on their own interpretation of the rules. They thought by not actually saying “move over” would be good enough! But the intent is clear. The evidence is damning and legal terms, this would be an open and shut case.
3 The Massa Brazil 07 and Kimi 08 moveovers have been banded about and “who cared then”! And James you yourself mention Christian Horner making the same call if he needed to etc, but both Massa and Kimi were not in with a shot of the DC on these occasions and these races were Championship deciders, and in that instance the team game comes in. Yesterdays events are quite frankly not in the same ball park as these.
I think that Ferrari has put the WMSC in a real position here and there will be many off the record phone calls going on between the team and the FIA. I could well see Ferrari making a sacrificial offering to the FIA! Maybe Stefano Dominicalli will be relieved of duties in order to show that the team have put there own house in order and avoid any further punishment!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
No team orders until last third of the championship is a good idea.take all Alonso’s points away because he seems to think we are all stupid by saying he knew nothing and because i dont like him.Give Massa the win and an extra 50 points for having to drive for Ferrari and have alonso as his team mate.Finaly make the Ferrari management dress as clowns at the next race.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
Whatever the arguments are in favour of having team orders, the fact is they are banned under current rules. Ferrari clearly broke that rule and, by doing so, brought the sport into disrepute and they should be severely punished. Ferrari clearly deserved a one-two finish, but by switching the positions of their drivrts they have put that result at risk. I have every sympathy with Massa, who deserved to win, but there’s no getting away from the fact that he was a party to this rule-breaking and will therefore have to take his punishment along with Alonso and Ferrari. As for the future, I still like to think of F1 as a sport and not just entertainment and therefore team orders should not be allowed. That is not to say that a driver should not allow his team-mate past when the championship is at stake.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
A couple of thoughts that occurred to me were that a better coded instruction could have been given. “Mix 10″ or something like that where available settings only go up to 8 for example, means “let your team mate past when you can safely do so”. Each team to have their own version of this. Alternatively Ferrari could have asked Massa to drive through the pits because they wanted to check something visually at slow speed. In this case he would have lost a place as well but may well have caught Vettel up again and had a chance at overtaking him. Ferrari could have done either and us spectators would be none the wiser.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
“Eddie Irvine, who has been on the receiving end of a few “move over” orders in his time, said last night that he felt Smedley and Massa had overblown it to make a point and in doing so had let the team down. It has certainly landed them in hot water.”
I think Eddie has it spot on. The call left me in no doubt that Smedley wanted to hurt the team for putting him and his driver in that position.
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Arri Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Exactly!! yet everyone is blaming Ferrari for making it so obvious and Alonso for denying it. Rob and Massa caused this, they made it obvious. Ferrari certainly would not have wanted it done so blatantly and Alonso had just finished his race and was bombarded with questions, what did everyone expect him to say….”Yes it was an order”?? Besides, as I’ve mentioned already, I doubt Alonso even knew that it was going to happen he was forced into a corner by the way Massa and Rob handled the situation.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:38 pm
There must be equal rules for all the teams and drivers. It is as easy (and as difficult) as this.
Obviously, this case is not having the same treatment by the media as if the team and drivers involved were others. I have been reviewing the press conference yesterday at Hockenheimring and the behaviour of English journalists against Alonso was simply incredible. Don’t remember what they said in this same scenario, two years ago, when Heikkii “blatantly” accepted team orders and let Lewis overtake him. Even the fans were laughing (you can check in youtube). In some races this year we all have seen team orders given, just to avoid sitations like that with the two Redbulls hitting each other (“no, Lewis, Jenson is not going to overtake you”). Could anybody tell me why is this different from yesterday race?
It is clear that there is a strong anti – non English speaking drivers bias in the media covering the F1 WC (being James Allen an exception, as he gives a fair treatment to all drivers as long as I am following this blog).
In my opinion, team orders will always be there, so the best thing is to accept the possibility that the teams use them. If they keep banned, systems will be more sophisticated: imagine that Massa’s engineer just told him “you should reduce your fuel consumption”, and two laps after Fernando overtakes him in a “more normal” way… it will be impossible to tell if they were team orders or normal racing.
As Eddy Irvine said last night at “Talksport”, the point is that both the engineer and Massa wanted to said loudly to the world that Felipe was yielding to Fernando.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:38 pm
Otherwise, it seems very very hard to define and control what a “team order” is.
Why was yesterday “team orders” and not Turkey when McLaren told its driver to “hold station”?
Simply because they did not swap positions? They were still prohibited from racing each other!
Why was not “save fuel” by Red Bull “team orders”? It had the same purpose as the message yesterday, to slow MW down so that Seb passes.
All in all, as Schumacher said:
<>
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=48923
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
James,
Great analysis over a very common issue in modern F1.
To add to mix, Germany 2008, Heiki did exactly the same that Massa to allow LH win that race.
Think about this, was McLaren or any of its drivers penalised for that action? NO
Should they be penalised? YES
Is it fair? In my view, NO
I did not hear any fan calling McLaren cheaters. That season LH ended up in front of FM for a miserable point. McLaren with team orders affected the win of that race and WDC.
Let’s be pragmatic, if Ferrari receives any penalty, McLaren should have it as well for 2008, otherwise we apply “double standards” for the same situation.
In a nutshell, the FIA should not take further action against Ferrari, however it should amend this very stupid and unworkable rule. Team orders should be allowed on the open.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
But Massa didn’t let Kimi past at Brazil 2007… Kimi passed Massa in the pit stop phase. It was a completely different situation to yesterday. It was more like Hamilton-Kovalainen Hockenheim 2008, Schumacher-Massa 2006 Suzuka and Kimi-Massa 2008 China.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
Allow team orders when there is no chance of one of the drivers winning the Championship, but not when there is a chance for both or when there is no chance for either.
Simples!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
What should the FIA do in the hearing?
(1) Exonerate Ferrari
(2) Rescind the fine
(3) Remove the offending rule
(4) Apologise to the fans for having such a stupid rule in the first place.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:40 pm
To me, this is easy. Absolutely no team orders until one of the team’s drivers is mathematically eliminated from the championship. What Ferrari did yesterday disgusted me, as it did in Austria 2002. Fans do not want to see manipulated races, no matter “the tradition”. I sense that a lot of Formula One insiders, including journalists, still don’t get this point.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:40 pm
My points in this shameful episode:
1) Ferrari and its drivers have lied to the stewards after the race when they said “there were no team orders” – that is a serious offence (remember Hamilton in Australia last year), therefore if the WMS Council establishes that they did issue team orders (and anyone following F1 knows that is exactly what happened here, no doubt about it) all parties will/should be punished further for this.
2) This is the same Felipe Massa who lambasted Piquet Jr for the Singapore race fixing incident, right? The one that claimed he was whiter than white and that he would never do such things? Yet Piquet Jr was a rookie under pressure from his team to do this or get the sack – pressure that I do not think Massa has at Ferrari. Yet he bowed to the pressure and when it was his turn to stand firm, do the right thing and say “no” to a fix he just couldn’t. And Massa wasnt even big enough to admit what went on, he lied to cover for his team and for himself. No wonder in Brazil people have lost respect for him after what went on yesterday.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:40 pm
From Hockenheim remove the Ferrari’s points but don’t move the others up. So Vettel still gets points for 3rd etc etc. It is too blatant to allow it to go with just a $100k fine. And Alonso needs taking down a peg or three….
Then no team orders until last 3 races of the season and then make it open season with the teams allowed to do what they want and play games with other cars to make the championship more interesting like the Nascar chase.
OR No team orders at all until it is Mathmatically impossible for the other driver to win.
What happens at the last race if a Toro Roso is stopping a Red Bull from winning the Championship…..
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:40 pm
I think to get rid of team orders, team radio’s should be banned from F1 I also think this could improve racing also. Its my view that the engineers should keep their work in the garage and the debreif room and the driver should be on his own in the car and rely on his own feel to conserve tyres, brakes, fuel etc rather than being talked through the race by his race engineer over the radio. This should stop these ridiculous coded orders and leave it to the disgression of driver if he decides to help his mate in the championship.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:41 pm
Ban radio communications! Go back to the boards, it works in Moto GP. Problem solved.
Otherwise all teams has its own coded message not just Ferrari. McLaren play with their fuel mix and include that into their message etc.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:42 pm
All the while that F1 is a team sport i.e entrants can enter more than one car, then team orders have to be accepted as part of the sport. I can think of no other team sport where such orders are ‘banned’. The essence of a team sport is that the team does its best to win as a team and when this requires a team member to defer to another team member rather than doing what is best for them as an individual, this will be done quite naturally and openly. Think cycling for example or any team ball game.
So I don’t think any version of restriction on team orders in F1 will ever work and therefore there should be complete acceptance. If the rules were to try and specify something like ‘only if a driver is within 2 seconds of his team mate can the team mate be asked to give way’ then all that will happen is that the leading driver will be asked to slow a bit until the gaps comes down to 2 seconds. So lets see team orders openly accepted and enjoy the extra tactical dimension that this will give to racing – one that has always been there but now we can see it happening openly and we will all know what is going on.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:42 pm
By the definition of the word, they are cheats, the broke the rules of the game to take advantage. Red bull played by the rules on a similar situation in Turkey and threw away a bunch of points.
However, trying to ban team orders is a pointless task as you can’t enforce it, there are too many ways around it. Irvine was right, Smedley appeared to be making it blatent, he must of known the likely effect of this action.
Given that you can’t ban it, you have only one option left, which is too sell it to the public as part of the tactical battle of a race. Sell it more as a team sport than an individual sport, and you might just crack it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:42 pm
The evidence was very clear and the rules have been broken. Even if we disagree with the rules they still have to be obeyed. So the only action available to the FIA is a punishment which prevents any gain being made by the team and sends a signal to others not to do the same.
So…
Ferrari should be stripped of all constructors points for the event.
Alonso should be excluded from the classification (losing the win from his record) and lose the 25 points gained.
Massa was in some ways the injured party, so possibly leave his 2nd place as is. Otherwise his points should also be removed to send a clear message to other No 2 drivers that they will be punished if they do not comply with the FIA rules.
Finally, all remaining places to remain as recorded, so no uplifting of places.
The key thing here is that Alonso and Ferrari must not gain by the deliberate action of breaking the rules.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
Why not allow team orders to exist, drivers are team mates, both working for the same team.
Allowing team orders would cut out any ‘cheating’ accusations. The WDC is won over a season not just one race.
If one man has a chance of winning the WDC and the other man is too far behind to win (not mathematically,but obviously too far), then team orders should be allowed, and followed more graciouly than Massa showed.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
if team orders can’t be policed (apparently) how can we ban them for part of a season let alone a whole season?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
“Eddie Irvine, who has been on the receiving end of a few “move over” orders in his time, said last night that he felt Smedley and Massa had overblown it to make a point and in doing so had let the team down. It has certainly landed them in hot water.”
I do not like these comments at all. God forbid a driver/engineer partnership should express their passion towards racing without thinking of media image and negative publicity first.
Smedley had every right to sound disheartened and apoligise over the radio, it was a badly handled situation on a massive scale by Ferrari.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
If Team Orders is to remain, it should be in the last third of the year.
But in this instance Alonso could not overtake Massa, period.
It all started with Alonso’s radio transmission “This is ridiculous……” and then Tim Smedley Radio transmission sealed it as a Team Order “MOVE OVER FOR YOUR TEAM MATE”.
I don’t think ALonso can function with a team mate that performs better than him.
Conspiracy Theory: What secrets does Ferrari have to hide that they made Massa move over, if he didn’t Alonso would have spilled the beans a la MacLaren.
Controversey follows him around, What secrets did Renault have that they had to tell the driver to crash so Alonso could win?
This time around Ferrari needs to punished ecause other teams will start doing it.
F1 just started coming back online and then this happens, it is not good for the sport, it needs to be curbed.
My 1p
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
The FIA (or anyone else) should not have a hand in this, it’s up to the team and its drivers.
I’m disappointed in Massa being such a lap dog. Ferrari’s antics and Alonso’s cynism (sp?) are well known to everyone.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm
Hi James,
I think Formula 1 either allows team orders or it doesn’t. So that means it’s either open-slather, or you adopt a far more meaningful strategy to see it doesn’t happen.
I don’t agree with the line of argument that it could’ve been handled better. Whether Massa comes to a complete standstill, and rolls out the red carpet, or a switch is made at high speed, and everyone has a cuddle at the end of the race, the fact remains the team ordered them to swap positions.
The FIA has effectively said you can pay $100K and institute team orders. That is pocket change for a team like Ferrari. The punishment has to mean something if it’s going to be effective. Teams will hardly have the fear of God put in them as a result of Ferrari’s punishment.
I personally don’t like the idea of team orders. The purist in me would like to see all the drivers racing each other to the end, and team-mate battles generally serve to spice up the racing. The in-house dramas at Red Bull have been one of the biggest talking points of the season.
It is hard though, to stop team orders. The point about Red Bull (or any other team) instituting team orders if the championship is on the line is absolutely correct. Given that, why persist with the charade that is the outlawing (and I use that in the loosest possible sense of the word) of team orders? We know it happens, we really can’t stop it, so let’s have it all out in the open and allow teams to do what they do anyway.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:44 pm
Ferrari have once again underlined everything I hate in F1. I am not a Ferrari fan, but when Massa was winning the race, I was actually cheering him on.
Alonso could not overtake him as once again, the FIA insist on tracks like Hockenheim and Hungary, that offer little or no overtaking opportunity. This is the way it has been though for years and Alonso needs to get a grip of himself and realise there are some you can win and some you can’t.
The team orders situation should completely be looked at from a viewer’s point of view. Here we had Massa about to win the race and return to Hungary, the scene of his near fatal crash, with bags of confidence knowing he had a car and a team behind him to face a track which no doubt holds a certain degree of fear for him. Now he has to return there knowing his team don’t back him at all and with his confidence blown to pieces. I’d be surprised if he finishes in the top 10.
Ferrari moan when the rules don’t suit them, and moan when the rules suit other teams (McLaren, Valencia). I totally agree with Eddie Jordan, that it is cheating in its highest form. Alonso would not have won that race if Massa did not pull over. Ferrari even endangered their 1-2 finish, as Vettel at one point was reeling Massa in!
In 2002 they managed to destroy the USA public’s interest in F1 and it’s taken over 8 years to re-build that interest. Imagine if they pulled this stunt off in Austin in 2012??
Shame on Ferrari and shame on the FIA if they don’t change the rules to penalise teams harder who breach such an important rule as team orders.
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Nicollers Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Also, there is no way Alonso would have done the same thing for Massa and the fact they are not appealing the decision speaks volumes.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:44 pm
There’s nothing ironic about it being Alonso who benefited from two events of ‘team orders’ in the last few years. The fact that he not only cheated at McLaren but then sold the team out because a rookie showed him up, I think, proves that he’s not above the shadiest of behaviour, so it makes perfect sense that he’d win races based on these kinds of incidents.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:44 pm
I think the FIA should give up on the pretense of banning team orders and remove the ban – with the proviso that teams have to publish whatever orders are in place before the start of each race. punishment would follow if the team then instituted an order change that contradicted the pre-race statement.
team orders have been a part of F1 fora long time, and the ban has been totally ineffective – so let’s bring things out into the open so teams can be judged on what happens and the attitude they take.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
At last, a sensible report on yesterday’s events. Another reason why this is the best and most balanced F1 site on the web.
I think team orders should be allowed, although, if we really must pander to the tabloids and their readers, perhaps only once one driver has no mathematical chance to win the championship.
I don’t think the FIA should remove Ferrari from the results. Its clear what happened, they broke the spirit of the rules, but they didn’t say “move over”. They just did what every other team does when they want to switch their drivers around, but with zero subtlety.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
Since this is a rule that is impossible to enforce the FIA should get rid of it. Like you said the teams can influence the outcome of a race in many ways so it might as well be done openly and legally.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
Mentioned this in the original race thread but I have a suggestion regarding the team order situation.
First though I think the F1 world should acknowledge that team orders are used by every team on the grid, just some teams are more blatant than others.
I’d like to see team orders re-legalised, with the added element that a team must declare after qualifying whether a driver is free to race his team mate from start to finish or if the driver is assuming a supporting role dependent in track position.
Should a team declare a free race and then switch tactic afterwards then they can have the usual array of sanctions brought against them. At least that way the audience should know where they stand regarding each driver and we wouldn’t have the absurd protestations that we witnessed yesterday and on previous occasions.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
“Think back to 2007, when Massa moved over in Brazil to let Raikkonen win the championship or the following year when the roles were reversed – did anyone object then? No, so that means that fans can understand there are occasions when teams do need some mechanism for shuffling the order, it’s just a question of the circumstances.”
Of course people can understand it’s a question of the circumstances. There’s a world of difference between doing it in the final race or two, as opposed to just over the halfway mark.
The question is, do Ferrari understand.
But I agree that the rule is unenforceable and ultimately detrimental. There are plenty of circumstances where people would not have a problem with that sort of switch and trying to write into the rules what is essentially an instinctive feel for when it’s right and when it isn’t is impossible. Thus, they may as well just scrap it and hope the PR backlash stops the most blatant and cynical examples of it.
People are annoyed though because we want to feel we’re watching a proper sporting contest, not some scripted WWE equivalent of a race. Up until the first radio message I thought we were having a great, brutal, uncompromising battle for the lead between the two, the highlight of a reasonably uneventful race. It turns out I was wrong.
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mcr Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
No, both actions are equal, both change the outcome of the race and the outcome of the championship. If we agree that a driver has to overtake his team mate on track properly, then he should have to do it everytime. How are viewers and fans robbed in one case and not in the other? You don’t feel cheated if it’s the last race of the championship, and do if it’s the eleventh race? why? I think here it depends more on who the driver is, if it had been Alonso moving over for Felipe, people would be wetting his pants over it.
People know and acknowledge team orders happen any time in any race of the championship and in any team, so I don’t see where this sudden sense of being robbed of the spectacle arises.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
At the end of the day the problem boils down to the fact that whether or not team orders are a ‘given’, it doesn’t make for a level playing field when some teams are being seem to work to the spirit of the rules, and others flaut them.
This is unfair as you cannot plan your strategies and identify your closest rivals accurately, thereby rendering the relevance of the position and points system useless.
Quite simply I have two suggestions, one pragmatic, one rather extreme.
1) Allow the teams to nominate and officially declare a No 1 driver. This will allow the fans’ and teams’ expectations to be set accordingly and will be more in keeping with the team-led ethos of the sport whilst making it clear who the actual contenders for the title are.
2) Allow the teams to interchange the points allocations for their drivers at the end of the race. Following this model, the drivers are merely a two pronged attack on the constructors championship as a priority with the drivers’ championship being offered as a carrot to the best drivers.
Either way, what really gets our back up is the arrogant manner in which Ferrari knowingly flaunt the rules after kicking and screaming at the FIA and the stewards all season long to detract attention from their lack of competitiveness.
Expose the opportunity in order to make it official (via an official submission of who is the number one driver) and embrace what is, after all, a given in Formula 1.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:46 pm
Funny how the people who defend Ferrari now for favouring a driver by breaking the rules are the ones who attacked Red Bull last race for favouring a driver without breaking the rules.
Especially commentators and pundits are showing their true faces.
Of all the commentators and pundits, Eddie Jordan is the only truly neutral one. He rightfully attacked RBR last race and grilling Ferrari now.
All the others are or fans of certain drivers and let that cloud their judgement or just good buddies with them (waves to Webber).
I.e. if RBR does it to Webber without breaking the rules all hell breaks loose, if Ferrari does it to Massa by breaking the rules then it is fine and reaction is overblown.
Will this get passed the censoring on this site? We will see
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:46 pm
I think you’re right that ferrari could have just botched Massa’s pitstop but that would mean they’re running the risk of someone jumping him while he’s stopped. My suggestion is that the consistently faster driver amongst the teammates should be given way – most especially if it’ll bring that driver closer to the WDC. It’s pointless to block your faster teammate and risk doing a ‘Vettel-on-Webber’ crash. If the drivers AND the team already agree on this principle before the race itself then it shouldn’t be considered ‘team orders’.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm
If a team states it has distinct No 1 and No 2 drivers then I have no issue with “team orders” – it’s obvious they are favouring one driver over another with development parts etc, so why not on the track too?
I would implement a “ruling”, that no team orders should exist (unless a team has a blatant\clearly defined No 1 and No 2) until one of the drivers is mathematically out of the equation to win the Drivers Championship… then it becomes fair to swap positions, in whatever way you wish – which seems to have been the unwritten “rule” for a time now eg, Massa letting Kimi by in Brazil ‘07 (I think) and vice versa in China ‘08.
Where the waters become mirkier is where a team continually says we have equal drivers (where fans believe this, people lay bets on this etc, etc)… yet all evidence points towards that not being true.
On Sunday, Massa was given a chance to win… Smedley sent a radio transmission to Massa, before the “move over darling” message, saying (in essence) “keep pushing, you can win this”, which confused me, as Massa was already in the lead, had completed his stops and thus had track position; so was a scenario already in place? Did Massa and Smedley know that if they couldn’t build up a big enough lead or prove Massa was faster, positions were to be reversed? What does Massa have written into his “new” contract?
Ferrari left Alonso behind Massa in some of the early races – Australia springs to mind – and Brundle in commentary was suggesting Ferrari\Massa should let Alonso through as he’s faster… yet they didn’t.
If Ferrari had come out with a “we’re now favouring Alonso” statement, I wouldn’t have an issue with this… as it stands, Massa should have just let Alonso through early-doors in the race and then held back Vettel, giving Alonso a massive lead; instead they let them race… and then let Massa down, in a massive way, leaving him in an uncomfortable position with the press and media.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm
Here is a drastic one worth considering. One car per team
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RBB Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
A good one JohnN. I suggested banning pit to car radio transmissions. I think we are the only two people with ideas that will solve the problem and not just put vague, fuzzy, rules in place. Let’s all be creative.
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BurgerF1 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
And another insane idea: get rid of the driver’s championship. Then there’s no reason for a team to need or want to orchestrate a driver swap on track!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm
I think that if a team end up in a situation where only one of it´s drivers has the possibility, even theoretical, to get the title and the other on does no have, then it would be most logical and understandable that the team mate can assist you (like in Brazil 2007). However, it is crucial that even in these cases they can only swap places and not for example block other competitors.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:48 pm
James, I totally agree with your analysis.
I am, and always have been, in favour of team orders being legal. Coulthard was right when he said that team orders are in F1’s history, and I fear that yesterday’s outrage stems in large part from this incessant drive to appeal to new fans – people who don’t really understand F1, especially the point that it is, and always has been, a team sport.
My point is highlighted by Nick Fry, again (as FOTA and Ecclestone frequently do) banging on about the ’show’ being the most important thing.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85574
F1 used to be a (team) sport, not a ’show’. I wholeheartedly welcome new fans and understand that to begin with they will not understand all its ins and outs. I also understand that some only want to be casual viewers, and this is fine too. But this constant drive for new fans really really is now increasingly at the expense of the knowledgeable, passionate, loyal, long-term fans.
I’ve said before and will do so again. I don’t like football, and I don’t expect FIFA to change the rules every year to try to get me into it. To do so would be grossly unfair to existing and loyal fans.
Should Ferrari be punished? Perhaps; because as the rules stand what they did was illegal. However why was this worse than what other teams do? The simple reason is (and it sums up my whole argument): it was deemed worse because they made it so obvious that people who don’t understand the sport could tell what had happened. The same, by the way, would go for Austria 2002.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:48 pm
There are two different questions:
1) Given that the rule is in place, it needs to be enforced. The obvious way to correct the issue is to remove 7 or 8 points from Alonso and the team, sending the message to the teams that there is no benefit in risking swapping positions.
2) Should the rule be in place? The answer to me seems to be an uncertain yes, in that the issue of team members racing each other is often the only way on an individual race that we will see drivers in balanced cars competing. A driver knows when the championship is over for them, so at the end of season phase, no orders need be given, and the audience understand it – even appreciate it as good teamwork.
The trouble is that whatever rule you put in place, team orders can still be pre-programmed, even if you ban communications entirely. There was no real need for team orders in Schumacher’s Ferrari days, it was clearly understood that they were a one driver team.
Surely Massa must have been briefed before the race – or did Ferrari believe their own propaganda (well Alonso’s) and simply fail to conceive that Massa could be the faster driver?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:48 pm
I think the FIA should look into the driver’s contracts. FIA wants a sport where it’s about the driver competition in the first place and team competition in the second place. They’re doing everything to bring teams closer together so drivers have a better chance to race each other.
When a driver demands a number one status in a team (by contract) then the competition has become unfair. It stikes me as no coincidence that Alonso has so much events surrounding his number one status (Renault, McLaren, Ferrari).
If FIA were to have the power to eliminate number one status by contract the rules on team orders have a chance to solidify.
I think it’s important for the sport to have a field of drivers that know that, if they perform well, they can win (championships or intra-team competition). In this case it wouldn’t have mattered for the team if Alonso came second and Massa got the win so if Alonso gets the #1 status this early in the season the Driver’s Championship is no longer about the best driver but ALSO about the faster car, eg. a Team Championship. Therefor banning team orders is essential.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:49 pm
Nice to see a balanced article from someone in the media James. I agree with everything you have wrote.
The problem is not the team orders as such, its the way they were applied. Obviously Felipe was upset and made a point by moving over in such an obvious way that has landed the team in some big trouble. However why should the teams have to code their team orders, anyone who has been watching F1 for a while knows that they occur alot. Telling two drivers to race to the final pitstops(in the refuelling era) and then saying ‘hold station’ is a team order and McLaren were very open about doing this and no one complained one bit as its a logical decision.
In this case we have a different team order of ’switch’ but that doesn’t change the fact that they are both team orders and both are acceptable. One is much more subtle and most wouldn’t notice and the other is very noticeable, especially whens its for the win. If Felipe had of artificially raced Fernando for a few corners then yielded it would have been fine as most wouldn’t have seen it as a team order. The way it happened is the reason for the overreaction.
As for the rule, well currently it doesn’t allow ANY team orders which is ridiculous. As you point out James many championships have been decided by a team order. Brazil 2007 is the most recent example but it was very subtle as it was an intentionally slow pitstop for Felipe to allow Kimi past, i’m guessing quite a few fans didn’t even notice it. Therefore the rule needs to encourage the teams to be less blatant about it.
Ferrari’s way yesterday was the simplest way for them to switch the position but putting it in perspective with Brazil 07 you can see there are more elegant ways they could have done it. Maybe the rule could involve only allowing switches through a pit stop phase, therefore if the teams want to switch their cars they have to do it early(under the no refuelling rules anyway) and they do it in a subtle way.
Either that or scrap the rule all together and let the teams decide when it is appropriate to give team orders. Another idea would be to make the teams prove that the switch is necessary ie. after the race they have to provide evidence that the car they let through was indeed faster(telemetry should cover that). Finally they could allow teams to switch drivers only if there is a certain points gap between them(say 50pts under the current points system), obviously only in favour of the driver who is 50pts or more clear.
Hope that the rule changes in some way as its not right at the moment for either the fans or the teams.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:49 pm
In an ideal world there would be no team orders at all and every driver must race for the win or to defend their position unless it actually costs themselves time in which case it may be more prudent to let a faster driver through. However that just can’t work in F1.
You also can’t leave it until one driver is mathematically out of the title race as we all know being ‘realistically’ out of the race happens much sooner.
Perhaps a solution where team orders are permissable if both drivers approve and there is a 150% of race win points gap between the 2?
There’s no ‘clean’ solution. The only way is to allow them providing the lower placed driver is faster. A sub section of the rule could then kick in when a trigger point is reached (ie a set percentage points gap between the 2 or as you say, in the last 3rd of the season).
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:50 pm
I agree with the first post, let the drivers sort it out between themselves.
It would be facinating to hear the drivers speak to each other over the radio transmission.
The important thing to me is being honest and open and this wasn’t the case yesterday. We are not fools.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:50 pm
If team orders are to be allowed, what is stopping a team from using one of their drivers consistently to be used as a tool to manipulate races, back up the pack, etc.?
Further, if teams are allowed to chop and change positions of their drivers – regardless that it is a ‘team’ sport – what becomes the meaning of the word ‘race’ in F1? Why not just allow 1 car per team?
I do get all the arguments *for* team orders… but that turns F1 into a very boring sport that I don’t think I want to be a part of as a fan who has paid hundreds of pounds and made great efforts to attend live race events.
I’ve got better things to do with my Sundays than crank up excitement and expectation for 2 weeks, only to have them extinguished by the likes of Ferrari.
If you want to win a constructors championship… you damn well go out there on the track and earn it.
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Jason C Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
But team orders are here and with us right now: the teams just have to clumsily make stuff up about why one driver let another past / stayed behind.
So to answer your main point about what becomes of F1 with team orders, well, it’s exactly as it is now, except without the embarassing excuses.
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swayze Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
You make a very valid point Chris Remove team orders and also tell the FIA to tell Webber and Button to look for another drive next year as both red bull and mclaren need a wing man each.
Makes you wonder why Ferrari are so keen on a third car they already have one wing man in Massa if they had another they could virtually garuntee Alonso the WDC
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TM Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
“team orders… turns F1 into a very boring sport”
But team orders were legally used in the World Championship from 1950 – 2002. Surely you can’t be suggesting that 2002 to present has been the most exciting era of F1 can you?
Of course everybody would prefer to have seen Massa and Alonso fighting it out. But this is a team sport and that is deep in its history, it’s nothing new. Most of the cyclists in the the tour de france are only there to help a few individuals in their team.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:50 pm
James,
Although it it clear in this situation that Ferrari broke the rules, I’m glad to hear someone suggesting that team orders do have a place in Formula 1.
I’ve always maintained that F1 is a team sport and the drivers are part of the team effort. If moving aside is good for the team then I can easily understand why a team would want to do that.
It’s sad for a driver if he’s the number two and has to move over for his team leader but signing a contract and agreeing to be a number two is voluntary and comes with a healthy financial reward.
Finally, as we saw yesterday, banning something won’t stop it happening…
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Chris Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
How did the switch made between Alonso and Massa benefit the team. The team points are still the same whichever driver leads a 1-2 or a 2-3 or a 3-4 etc finish?
The switch solely benefits the driver taking the lead position.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:50 pm
As I said, those that have been around understand the situation, buy it still leaves a bad taste.
The rule should be as follows.
Switch to occur on last lap to give the other driver’s fans no doubt over the victor. Plus it eliminates the on-air bashing.
That’s it.
There is no way to police anything else realistically. Infact, I’m not sure why they even use the radio to do it. It should arranged pre race. The evidence even from this Ferrari example would not stand up in court. They are guilty in the court of public opinion, but not according to rules. No one said move over, and that’s the smoking gun needed to make this beyond doubt. Massa is my driver, but his puss face did nothing for team as he claims. If you’re going to be knoble and agree to move over, don’t sulk about it later.
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Sebee Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:51 am
WHAT I SAID WORKS ONLY FOR A 1 2 FINISH.
FOR THAT REASON THE ONLY SENSIBLE EASY TO UNDERSTAND RULE IS TO OK TEAM ORDERS REGARDLESS OF POSITION.
BUT THEY DO RUIN THE EVENT, DONT THEY?
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TM Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Interesting theory – but coincidentally that’s exactly what got us into this situation in the first place – Austria 2002.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:51 pm
I think a system along the lines of this might work.
No team orders at all during the first half of the season.
In the second half it would be accepted that a driver can let his team mate through, i.e. a team ordered switch, if he is mathematically unable to win the championship.
This leaves the driver moving over losing nothing as he already has lost the championship whereas the drivers who still can win it are given the advantage. This should also go a way towards improving the show towards the final race(s) of the season.
A more percentage based system might be better if the championships are going to be as close as this year going forward but I think the idea has potential.
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Stuey Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
I think if you are going to go down have team orders when it’s not mathematically possible for one to win it, you’d have to write in an additional rule allowing team orders for all in the last race. As you could end up with a situation where the team with 2 drivers in with a chance at the last race need to make a team call to ensure one of their guys wins the drivers championship over the team where only one driver is in it. This would be fair if team orders are allowed to shape the outcome of the drivers championship.
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Chris Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
I don’t see why that would be necessary.
If at the last race both drivers could win the championship then they race – No team orders.
The point of the system would be that racing is ensured between those who can win the championship yet the teams are able to use the other driver, if available, to assist the teams position/result.
It gives fans the racing they deserve and the teams a legal way of using team orders. It provides justification of those orders to both parties.
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TM Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
But what Stuey means is:
Let’s say for example, at the final event, Webber Alonso and Vettel can all mathematically win the championship.
2 laps from the end, Massa is second, Alonso third, Webber 9th, Vettel 10th.
In this configuration Vettel will win the title. Webber has no chance because he needed to finish 2nd or higher, but Alonso will be just short so under your rule, Ferrari are allowed to instruct Massa to let Alonso by to win the championship by 1 point. But if Alonso gets 2nd in the race, if Vettel gets 9th he wins the title (as he won more races).
So under your rule, even though Webber has no chance of winning the title with 2 laps to go, Red Bull are still not allowed to let Vettel by, even though Alonso will only win because Ferrari are allowed to let Alonso by.
Wouldn’t this be slightly unfair?
July 26th, 2010 @ 2:51 pm
I believe that the team should be able to tell the drivers to do anything it feels it needs to do for the betterment of the team. Except crash of course
The drivers are jockeys and need to remember that without the car/team etc would be in the stands with the rest of us. Of course it is heart breaking to see a decent fellow like Massa (and Rubens for that matter) get the short straw but as we all know they happily take the gift it it comes their way.
F1 already suffers form far far too much rule making of a picayune nature which was drafted in response to some very specific situation but applied widely.
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TM Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Bravo Gordon I completely agree.
While I felt a bit sorry for Massa because of the anniversary of his accident, nobody forced either him or Barrichello to sign those Ferrari contracts. Clearly the downside to not being there is that they probably wouldn’t be in a top car, but it’s their choice to weigh up whether being a number 2 driver in a top car is better than being an equal in a lesser car.
Far to many rule changes as you say.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:51 pm
If the call comes for one driver to pass another so that he can go chase down another team’s car, that’s fine – it’s better for the team. In this case, what does it benefit the team to swap drivers? They probably have to pay ALO more money for a contract and receive the same amount of points/no improvement in constructors position/no more money from FOM. VET was clearly not pressuring ALO at the end of the race. Check the lap chart http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/charts/201011r.html
James, I think you hit the nail on the head that the fans think in the last few races – say 5, they don’t think it’s a problem. I never really had a problem until I saw Massa on the podium…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
James, I like reading this website, I come here everyday, but this one just 100% reflects my thoughts!
My interpretation of the situation was that Felipe was told not to do anything crazy in case Alonso will try to overtake again as he was clearly faster and he is the only driver to pick up the fight against Hamilton or Vettel this year. What else could they do?
This is the team sport and this move is not different from British GP in 2008 with Hamilton and Kovalainen involved, no different with Massa and Kimi, Kimi and Massa, no different from “save fuel”. I was made to look that bad, but people are overreacting.
Most of the Ferrari fans are upset with the team, but come last race of the season and Alonso is going to win the WDC by several points, would they understand then? Will they love the team again?
It was a tough call, but Alonso was consistently faster, not just this weekend, but all year.
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KesNZ Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
I agree this is a TEAM sport they should be able to make the calls when needed and when you look at the facts it was the right decision.
1. Alonso is further ahead in the points than Massa (considering how far we are through the season that mathematical garbage only works if the Red Bulls & Mclearns finish well down the points which is unlikely.
2. Massa has been much more inconsistent this season than Alonso there’s no guarantee that he will carry this form for the rest of the season.
James great site and glad to see some commonsense, I also noted that your mate Martin Brundle had similar thoughts on the day.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
Everyone lost at the German GP.
Massa supposedly did the “right thing” for the team and now Ferrari have laid the blame at his feet for the ensuing furore. He is now the official Ferrari whipping post.
Ferrari have been dishonest about what happened and are now widely seen as cheats. I’m sure the Ferrari sponsors are not impressed and it would be understandable if they walked away.
Alonso’s already battered reputation has taken another dive. I’m convinced that Alonso would not have moved over for Massa. Even if Alonso wins the championship it will be seen as a hollow victory.
Once again the fans have been let down by the shenanigans in F1. My friends who are not F1 fans say to me “how can you follow a sport which is crooked.”
The rules are meant to be followed. If your child had watched the race then consider this. The message is – nice guys finish last – cheats win – rules are for other people – if you get caught cheating then lie your way out of it or blame someone else – winning is everything.
Historically the better season’s have been when team orders weren’t prominent. When Williams and Mclaren were dominant they let their drivers race. During the Schui Ferrari years people turned off their tv’s in large numbers because they knew that even if Schui’s teamate did a better job they weren’t allowed to win.
The message for the FIA is this – People expect a sporting spectacle.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
A timely piece of objective journalism James, thanks.
After the hysteria of yesterday, I hope there a few embarrassed journalists in the English press pack.
Indeed your replacement in the PR press conference half started it off.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
The rule needs to be rescinded, to the point that some teams have explicit 1st drivers. Why didn’t I mention 2nd drivers? Because the model I’m looking (ignorantly) at is TdF. Alonso needs his peleton. You know, in case Ferrari runs three drivers, or Red Bull absorbs Toro Rosso..
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
Let the drivers race. If they are good enough to be in F1 (or any racing championship) they should be able to challenge the team mate for the position and not take each other out recklessly. A team mate is a challenger and should be seen no differently to another driver in another team when racing. Yes, a team mate will always be more difficult to overtake because of the inside knowledge that team mates have. Here in lies the challenge.
A win when you have earned it is more worthy than being gifted it. It shows the driver has talent, skills and knows how to use their judgement and experiance to their advantage. It will also spice up the drivers market and really show the men from the mice.
To say that at the last race ‘XX’ driver could of won the championship if their team mate allowed them to overtake them at ‘YY’ race is wrong.
Can a team prevent a car from breaking down or get caught up in an accident through being in the wrong place at the wrong time..? NO. They field the car with the best chance that they can to win points to take the ultimate prize. The rest is down to Murphys law and ensuring that the car is as good as it can be.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
James thank you for some common sense in what has been an overblown incident.
Seriously, looking at the circumstances Ferrari find themselves, why wouldn’t you make the switch? I would have done it in an instant, though I would have been smarter about it and used the pit stops or told Massa to conserve fuel like Mclaren does. They made the best decision for the team and the championship, they know that, Massa knows that and Alonso knows that. Alonso is their only chance for WDC, even then it’s going to have to be a hell of a second half of the season for him and the WCC honestly looks out of reach as it is.
Sometimes I think, when did Formula 1 stop becoming a team sport? they might as well only have one driver per team if they don’t expect the drivers to work together!
I hope the FIA look into this to try and make the best policy and make it better.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:56 pm
The rule against team orders is completely unenforceable at any point in the season, and always has been, from the very first day it existed — which is why I’ve decried it from the start, and continue to do so today. There are any number of ways that team orders can be applied, and many of them don’t even require a message on the team radio for their implementation. They can be agreed ahead of time, behind closed doors. Literally the only possible way to prevent team orders would be to require each driver to be accompanied by an FIA representative at all times, 24/7.
Given that the rule is unenforceable, it never should’ve been created in the first place, and should be dropped from the rulebook immediately.
That said, we don’t get to pick and choose the rules we like, and Ferrari clearly and very publicly broke the rules in this instance. For that, they deserve a punishment that would deter them from repeating their crime — especially given that they are the team that decried another driver being allowed to profit from a rules infraction of similar severity in very recent memory.
The intention of the rule, given that it is unenforceable, was clearly to push team orders below the surface and out of sight, where only knowledgeable fans would recognize their continued existence. Ferrari chose to bring them back to the surface, and have only themselves to blame if they’re to be punished.
$100,000 might sound a lot to the casual fan, but it’s a laughably small fine to an outfit like Ferrari, and wouldn’t deter them from repeating their actions today (though the public outcry almost certainly would — I’ve seen this rated as the worst race of the year, and I’ve seen polls showing 80%+ of fans believe a penalty is called for.) By way of comparison, Ferrari’s fine for letting their drivers stand on the wrong step of the podium in 2002 was $1.2 million, when adjusted for inflation, so today’s fine is well under ten percent of the size, a mere drop in the bucket for an outfit like Ferrari. (Incidentally, this huge difference in fines suggests that the FIA actually considers appearances to be vastly more important than the rule book itself.)
To prevent a repeat, it seems to me that the only punishment that fits the crime is to remove points from the team, since it is the team that made the decision. Ferrari should hence be stripped of their constructors’ points at the race, and the episode put behind us. Any lesser punishment would not have deterred the team from applying team orders, and any greater punishment would be disproportionate given that we know other teams — McLaren, for example — have unquestionably applied team orders already this season, with the sole difference being that they were applied just slightly more subtly.
To repeat, though, the rules as they stand are unforceable, and we shouldn’t allow any unenforceable rule to remain in the books. This is a team sport, and team orders will always be a part of the sport. It is simply unreasonable to expect a team not to favor one driver over another at any point in the season, and if we accept it in the last race, there’s absolutely no reason not to accept it in the first, even if we personally find it distasteful of a team to consider doing so early in a championship. Better that the teams apply their orders visibly, where the public will shame them into allowing a fair fight for the start of the championship, than that we sweep everything under the carpet while teams apply their orders contractually from the first race of the season.
If this rule still stands as we enter the next round of the championship, Formula One will be doing itself a disservice.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:56 pm
There is no good solution – banning TO will be artificial as you said. If they are fully reintroduced – it will be a slap in the face to fans (gambling fans especially). The teams should be forced to use team orders in white gloves only when necessary. The whole media crying is not about TO in generall but about the manner Ferrari and Massa did it. (If Nando have passed Felipe in pits no one would have said anything).
Maybe limited number of “free team orders” would do the trick ? (two times per driver a season for example)
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:56 pm
I do take issue with the statement that Domenicali or Dyer should have given the order.
With things as they are, Smedley has the defence that it was a routine communication with his driver, even if his tone and subsequent actions made it very clear that it was not (and arguably it was not smart on his part to make it so clear).
If Domenicali or Dyer had come on the radio and said something then plausible deniability goes straight out of the window – they do not routinely tell drivers who is faster or not during a race.
So basically Smedley having to pass on the order is a consequence of the “no team orders” rule – if it were legal to have team orders I’m sure it would have been Domenicali giving the order; I don’t think it would have left much less of a sour taste in the mouths of fans though.
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Oblique View Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
There’s no arguably about it. Smedley was very silly to make the call the way he did. Massa too for the way he let Alonso through. I know emotions are involved here, but they are both highly paid professionals and should have known better.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:57 pm
All the FIA can do is allow team orders, if they don’t, they will still happen and people will be more annoyed than if they were allowed.
I agree James that this has been one big overreaction. Team orders have happened up and down the pitlane for years even with this “new” rule.
What is the difference between a team order now and one in the last round, nothing. They both have the same affect, but people seem to allow it because “the championship is at stake”. The championship is always at stake so I don’t think a time when team orders are allowed is fair. It might not even work, if Ferrari (or any other team) is willing to break one rule then they would be willing to break another.
Team orders will always be in F1, a bit like diving in football, it’s a shame it happens but we have to live with it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:58 pm
I was so dissappointed Felipe was deprived the opportunity to take a win.
It is a PR disaster for Ferrari, and everyone knows a $100,000 fine is a tiny amount in this sport. When you contrast that with a $100m fine for breaking the rules (and lying about them) for Mclaren, you gain an appreciation of what constitutes a ‘large’ fine. Obviously completely different scenarios, but a fine that is a 1/1000 times smaller for a rule break that is very open, blatent, has upset the fans, and then been lied about Vs an offence the casual observer couldnt give two hoots about seems crazy.
My point is, if no further sanctions are given, no team will even bother trying to cover up team orders. $100,000 will just be the de facto rate for issueing one.
As Damian suggested, swapping the drivers points, and excluding the contstructors points from Ferrari would dissuade anyone from doing it again.
Going forward, no team orders until the final 3rd of the season, unless it is mathematically impossible for the 2nd placed driver to win the title.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:58 pm
Ferrari have broken a rule which has affected the end of a race which is against the rules. How much money have people lost in betting and should an enquiry be made into the betting and fines be placed on Ferrari to repay some of those? (Just a suggestion)
Another thing is how many times has this happened in the last couple of years when we didn’t get the radio???
From above i think a fair solution is:
Allow team orders once one driver mathematically can’t win the championship or in the couple last races.
All driver contracts must be submitted to the FIA so that they can protect the drivers from being forced to break rules or lie to the stewards.
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ronmon Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Anyone who bets real money on the outcome of a motor race is being foolish. And if they did bet on a red car it would probably would have been Alonso.
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Oblique View Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
Anybody who bets on something they don’t fully understand is being foolish.
Team orders have been and will always be part of F1 no matter what the rule book says. If you think otherwise you either do not fully understand the sport or you are delusional.
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senna Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:09 am
delusional like alonso.?
Dan Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
Yes but if you can bet on a race then some people would. Also what about the betting companies? Should they be allowed to claim back the money they lost due to Alonso winning??? Would people not think of betting for Massa if the odds were 100 times better???
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Oblique View Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:40 am
I wouldn’t loose too much sleep over the betting companies. When was the last time you saw a poor bookie?
If the odds on Massa winning were a lot better then obviously that’s a much higher risk bet. I should imagine the odds on Massa winning another GP this year have just got an awful lot longer too.
July 26th, 2010 @ 2:58 pm
As a Ferrari fan, the thing that upset me the most was the fact that it was the first anniversary of Felipe’s frightening accident and a win would have been fantastic for him.
I was looking forward to the feelgood story and hoping it would give Massa the boost he needs.
The decision to let Alonso through did seem to come as a surprise to Smedley and Massa though.
Isn’t the possibilty of a switch discussed prior to racing?
As you said in your piece James, maybe a longer pitstop, or at least going into turn 6 and not coming out of it and making it blatantly obvious.
I have no problem with team orders when necessary, but it’s too early in the season, unless you have a designated #1 driver or a massive points difference between team-mates. (There are still a lot of points on the table)
Maybe in the final third or quarter of the season.
And maybe there should be a “gentleman’s agreement” between team-mates (especially in a 1-2 situation)that they maintain station at 2/3 or even 3/4 race distance.
What Kimi and Felipe did for each other was fine. Austria’02 was wrong. Germany’10 wrong.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:59 pm
For me the principle here should be simple; if a driver has a mathematical shot at the championship, then no team orders.
Beyond that; all is fair in Love, War and Formula One.
As for what the FIA should do with Ferrari this time; a slap on the wrist is due. A small fine ($500,000) and a time penalty to Alonso to correct the race result.
That said between the Mclaren and Renault spying scandals of 2007, the precedent has been set that not owning up to the crime results in a $100m fine.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:59 pm
James, I agree with your comments, the suggestion I posted on my blog (f1professor.wordpress.com) is as follows:
“I have no problem with Ferrari applying team orders – it is a strategic choice that they have made in how they run the team. I believe each team should make an explicit and verifiable statement to the FIA and the public about their approach to team orders, so Ferrari can stop pretending to be doing one thing while clearly doing another. It might be embarrassing for some number 1 and number 2 drivers, but at least the fans will know where they stand and allegations of race fixing would become a thing of the past, imagine that!”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 2:59 pm
If this is the only way Ferrari and cry baby Alonso can win then I`m out
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:00 pm
James, one point that needs to be made is that this is being blown out of proportion ONLY because this year FOM has full access to team radio and can play it over the air at their discretion. Otherwise, we would’ve heard McLaren tell Hekki the same thing in 2008 before he let Hamilton pass him on this exact track. From what I’ve read afterwards, McLaren told Heikki that Lewis was faster than him, but it was never aired. I’m sure the same thing occurred in China 2008 when Massa was let through by Kimi and so on.
In regards to a suggestion, the earlier comment is very spot on. Which is that team orders should be banned for the first half or two-third of the season while a driver has a mathematical chance of winning the championship unless there is valid evidence that shows one driver is consistently struggling throughout the season and his being ahead is ultimately affecting his team’s possibility of success. The reason for this last part of the comment is to prevent a couple of things… One, a situation where a slower teammate is in front, in Monaco for example where passing is next to impossible, and his being ahead of a faster teammate prevents that teammate from chasing after the rest of the group which is ahead and pulling away. Another reason is to prevent something similar to what happened to RBR in Turkey from happening.
The truth is that in F1 right now, passing is very difficult when following another car, so even if you’re in a faster car or a faster driver, you will not necessarily get pass another driver if he doesn’t want to let you through. And this can lead to unnecessary accidents which are safety risks. Remember Valencia with Webber and Heikki? The RBR is how many seconds faster than the Lotus? But they were fighting for position and Heikki held his line.
A teammate blocking another teammate unnecessarily when he’s struggling ALL season with the car hurts the show because it prevents that faster teammate from going and attacking the rest of the grid and providing a more interesting show to the fans.
Here’s what I mean by this… Massa has been struggling ALL season with the tires and the cars and hasn’t been able to keep up with his teammate. Anybody saying otherwise needs to take the blinders off. Alonso qualifying half a second clear of his teammate for example in Germany is no small feat. So if Ferrari doesn’t put their full weight behind Alonso, they could potentially be out of contention for the driver’s title. So we’re given less of a show because we have fewer drivers fighting for the championship at the end.
The FIA needs to keep all that in mind when revising this law.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:00 pm
If this were McLaren they would be thrown out of the championship and suffer a massive fine. As this is ferrari I would not expect the FIA to give them anything other than a warning. It is unfair but it is the way of the governing body.
Persoanlly I would remove all their points from that race and team points for the year, like McLaren had.
They still will not get the massive fine
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mcr Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Yes,like they were thrown out of the championship after spygate, liegate….
Don’t make us laugh, please.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:01 pm
The rule is wrong – it cannot be applied fairly anyway except for cases where individuals within the team are SO blatant about it.
Team orders are part of F1 and it’s a team sport – the rule therefore has no direct place
However, we must not lose sight of why the rule was introduced in the first place. A set of blatant actions in 2002 causes an equivalent media and fan uproar.
I think the genuine F1 fan knows and accepts team orders are part of the sport. What the genuine fan does not like is when they are being deceived and blatantly told things that are not true
Ferrari do need to take a long hard look at some of their post race behaviour and comments – they were bordering on immoral as everybody knew what had gone on and they were coming out with all kinds of stories to explain what happened. All of these comments, of course, were to protect them legally but they were a joke at the same time
James, there is no point making reference to the “Alonso was faster over the weekend so it was right” story. We all know that and I believe the educated fan has no issue with the principle of team orders. In this case, it’s the execution of them and the post race comments from Ferrari that annoys the fans
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:01 pm
There should be no team orders until it is impossible for one driver to win the championship, that is what happens at illiams and Mclaren.
When Kovalienen was asked to let Hamilton through he was clearly faster and left Kovalienen behind and went on to win the race. That is completely different from asking a driver who is in the LEAD to let a team mate through when he still has a chance of winning the championship. Likewise letting drivers race the first 40 laps and then hold station is OK.
What we are faced with now is knowing that Massa even if he out qualifies Alonso will give his position up and be used to protect Alonso’s position on the track. Meanwhile the other two teams will have to decide whether they have to prioritise their drivers in order to counteract this move from Ferrari. Because obviously there are going to be team orders for the rest of the season.
There should be no team orders until one driver cannot win the championship.
The FIA put an official into Mclarens garage to ensure fair play for Alonso, IRONIC.
Also wasn’t Alonso complaining about manipulated races recently, well he’s proved his point, this one certainly was.
As for Ferrari feeling agrieved by recent decisions, it’s called bad luck. The intention was to punish Hamilton but the safety car and Koybaiashi ensured he wasn’t and it was bad luck there was a safety car when he had to do his drive thru penalty, I don’t know how Ferrari thought they wouldn’t have to cede position to Kubica after the incident at Spa with Hamilton. as for saying Kubica left him no room therefore he shouldn’t have to cede position, well Raikonnen gave Hamilton nowhere to go and Hamilton gave the position back and was still penalised.
I feel desperatley sorry for Massa for the rest of the season he is destined to be Alonso’s whipping boy and no one deserves that.
Ferrari have lied to the FIA and the media and look what happened to Hamilton for lying.
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mcr Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Yes, it’s going to be so hard for Maclaren and Redbull to prioritise their drivers….
What have Red Bull been doing all this time? Wing taken out of Webber’s car and given it to Vettel….
And Hamilton isn’t preferred over Button, there is no team order there, that’s why Jenson has finished behind Hamilton in the last two races, not even a remote sign, not the least intention to overtake his teammate.
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Oblique View Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
People keep saying the Hamilton Kovalienen incident at Hockenheim 08 is different.
How so?
Kovalienen got a radio message that said Hamilton is behind you and faster, he let Hamilton through and Hamilton won the race. Massa got a message saying Alonso is faster, let Alonso through and Alonso won the race.
The only difference that I can see is that this incident involves Ferrari and Alonso. For many they are the pantomime villains of F1.
However you try and restrict Team Orders they will still happen, as we’ve seen countless times since they were banned in 02. Just scrap the rule.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:02 pm
Ok, so we already have the rule that states “Team orders which interfere with the race result are banned”.
‘Interfere’ is open to interpretation and degree.
So just leave it as it is, but grade the penalties to fit in with the amount of interference and leave it up to the stewards to decide.
ie. specify a range of penalties at the stewards disposal, ranging from a reprimand, up to $5000 fine to the team, to adding a time penalty to one or both drivers.
Really the stewards should have just added 5 seconds to Alonso’s time. I don’t know if the rules allow this, but just spelling out the penalties a bit more clearly to fit the ‘crime’ would enable justice to be seen to be done.
Leave it to the stewards, but give them clear max and min penalty guidelines.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
James, why must there be radio? Driver’s are receiving far too much instruction from the pit…. to change fuel settings, brake temperatures and to change position. Let them race and get the driver to manage the car out on track without the radio. We’ll see much purer racing and the smartest drivers that are sensitive to their machinery winning.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
To get around the issue, they needed a botched pit for Massa. The radio message was cruel.
Massa beat him fair and square, but Alonso cried to Mommy. The fine is a joke. While unfair to Massa, removing their points is the right decision. Both cars took part in the order, both should be DQ’d. This point system has many scrambling, and panicking because the differential in positions is so high. If we had the 10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1 system Alonso would not be so far behind and require this assistance. If the team has one driver with a shot, then yes, a formal understanding should be how the team cooperates. If both fight like McLaren in 07, that Ferrari took advantage, but it could have been either of them. I see a Red Bull McLaren battle, Ferrari had the setup this time, but I doubt it will continue. Fans would love to see 4 drivers battle, or 6, but reality by race 16 should narrow the selection.
5 more races from now.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
I think transparency is key. Allow team orders but there must be some way to open up all radio transmissions to the viewers, or at least provide more radio transmissions to allow the viewers more of an insight into the workings of the team.
Look it is a team sport, but I think that the biggest amount of outrage is the lack of transparency and the attempts to cover it up. I know the biggest problem I have with this situation is how the message was delivered, and how adamant Ferrari was after to race to play on as if nothing had occurred.
If a driver is willing to sign a contract so that he can drive one of these magnificent technological achievements in anger, than they damn well better go over their contract to ensure that it is something they are willing to live with. (Including being the possible #2).
Maybe this would lead to every team having a #1 and a #2 driver, but is winning the WDC so much more important to a team than winning the WCC ? Sure, maybe putting all of your money behind one horse gives you a better chance, but what if that one horse comes up lame?
The better teams will know and attract 2 good drivers, that know they have the freedom to race each other until the point where it is futile for one or the other. At that point, they are playing for the team.
It wasn’t too early here. Massa is out of the championship. But Alonso complaining over the radio (‘This is ridiculous’) along with the way he has treated his teammate from the beginning (China anyone?) has also contributed to the outrage. It has always looked like the team (Ferrari) was immediately more in Alonso’s camp than Massa’s.
I think it would be interesting, if the positions were swapped,i.e. Massa was in form and Alonso was not, Massa having the better shot at the WDC, if Alonso would move over for Massa.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
Good point James. Without the call Alonso would have tried for sure to pass Massa. There is a high risk in doing that as we saw in Red Bull. Nobody would like to win a race that way, but it is worst to break your car in the fight. Should the WMSC punish the drivers? I don´t think so. With all the media talking like they are about race fixing I think it’s enough to prevent any further calls. Anyway there will always be some kind of race fixing at every team, at least at the end of every championship.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:05 pm
James, I agree with everything you say regarding the circumstances of yesterdays race and how it is different to Austria 2002. However, there is a big difference to what happened in Brazil 2007 and what happened yesterday.
That is, going in to the weekend of Brazil 2007 before a car had even taken to a practice session for Ferrari there was only one goal for the weekend – Kimi had to win the race. There was no order ever given during the race to Massa to concede the position – he would have known before even arriving in Brazil that if he was leading the race and Kimi was in second he would pull over and give him the win. There was no need for a team order to tell him to do that.
Yesterday, that was not the situation. Even during the race, Rob Smedley radioed Massa to tell him “Keep pushing, you can win this race.” When the order to change positions came along, it was something of a shock because it went against the narrative of the season so far, where the other two top running teams have let their drivers race.
It also went against the previously established Ferrari ‘rule’ that the drivers are free to race up until the last third of the race.
Yes, common sense says Massa has no chance of winning the championship, however with Red Bull and McLaren allowing both drivers to fight for the championship, even with his 34 point disadvantage I would argue that it now gives Alonso a better opportunity to win the championship than any of the four drivers ahead of him.
In fact, assuming Red Bull and Ferrari share the top four positions, with McLaren finishing 5-6 over the last eight races, with equal bias between the Red Bull and McLaren drivers and an Alonso bias in Ferrari, Alonso will gain 20 points on the Red Bull drivers and 88 points on the McLaren drivers, giving him the championship.
Obviously, the season will be more organic than that, but going out of Hockenheim that is the current ‘model’ for the rest of the season that best represents the current performance of the teams.
At the start of this season Formula 1 was advertising itself as having 4 strong teams with 8 drivers all being given an equal chance to win that world championship. The greatest selection of drivers on the grid in a generation – possibly of all time, all with the same chance of lifting that world championship. That narrative played out in every race until yesterday. That is the reason there was so much controversy over the Vettel/Webber incidents which suddenly pale in significance to what we saw yesterday.
As for possible solutions. The fairest solution I can see is that when a team finishes with two consecutive positions on the track they can switch the points reward between the two drivers. That way, they could have let Massa win and provided Alonso was second he could be given the 25 points and Massa 18. He can even be given the countback for that position. That way, the rightful driver wins the race but the championship contender gets the points without having to manipulate the race.
To engage this mechanism I think that a team would have to register with the FIA that there is a favoured driver (so they say “Alonso is favoured in the championship”) prior to the race start so once the race ends the points allocation is done automatically to ensure the reporters and fans know what is going on.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:05 pm
It seems to me the most sensible punishment would be a suspended race ban. That way everybody knows not to do it again, but the potential chaos of having the results changed weeks after the race is avoided.
After that, it’s necessary to have another look at the rule. Either remove it, or clarify it. The way it’s worded right now, it’s unworkable, and just encourages the kind of televised fibbing that patronises the audience and leaves a bitter taste.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
Before each race each team should name their No.1 and No.2 drivers. If a No.2 driver finishes just ahead the No.1 they would automatically swap their positions. If someone classifies between the two drivers, no changes in the results.
Examples:
Race: Hungaroring
Ferrari driver No.1: Massa
Ferrari driver No.2: Alonso
Fig.1.: Alonso 5th, Massa 6th –> in the results: Massa 5th, Alonso 6th
Fig.2: Alonso 3rd, Massa 6th –> results remain
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
Firstly it’s the fans don’t like this behaviour. And it’s the fans that provide the value to F1 for all the sponsors that pay for the show.
But there is a much bigger picture here James I think many are ignoring in the media. The FIA are trying their up most to boost the credibility of motor racing as a sport. The perception of team orders in the general public is it’s nothing more than race fixing.
Various schemes like the Under-18 World Karting Championship, The Karting Academy, and Formula 2 place 90% emphasis on drivers and their talent. This is a clear intention the direction the FIA want motorsport to go in. Yes F1 needs to remain the technical pinnacle, but it appears, not to the detriment to fundamental sporting principles.
The reason it’s vital to do this is for a number of reasons. If you were a parent and wanted to do karting with your child would you seriously invest thousands in a sport which doesn’t reward the best driver on the day? What we say in germany was not really something that encourages parents to invest in motorsport
Another, maybe more influential point is this – With the increased pressure from green groups in future years F1 and motor sport in general needs credibility to survive. Without credibility motor sport is weak and open to attack from groups that say it’s a wasteful sport that has no credibility.
F1 needs to realise it has quite a large responsibility in the general motorsport world, and this idea that “it’s F1 team orders happen all the time” won’t wash any more. F1 needs to change so motor sport in general can face future challenges with credibility and strength. At the moment we look very very weak.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
They are constantly in touch with Charlie, why not get an OK from him to give an order and let the media know. Give the order in a clear unambiguous way. Then the press would report “And an official team order was given in the interests of…”.
I like to see them racing against each other, but you’re right, there are times when they make sense.
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ronmon Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:27 pm
It takes Charlie 20 minutes to make a decision. That would be a problem
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
The Massa / Smedley relationship is hugely entertaining and brings a human side to a sport which is at times somewhat sterile. Rob acted emotionally, but what else would you expect, he clearly feels the pain just as much as Felipe. I expect he received the mother of all bollockings, but that would be unfair – team orders should come from the team not the engineer, and it should have been Stephano Domenicali on the radio to Massa.
No-one seriously believes that team orders don’t happen, but where both drivers have a mathematical chance of winning the title then it makes a mockery of the sport. We the fans have indeed been cheated of watching Massa and Alonso duelling for the lead of the race as we have seen other team-mates do in the past – it could have been one of the highlights of the year.
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Oblique View Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. He’s not paid to act emotionally, but professionally.
In this case he didn’t nor at the time did Massa.
If they had Ferrari wouldn’t be in the hot water they’re in now.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
While the need for team orders is understandable at some point of the season, a too frequent use of them destroys racing. I have no interest in following a race where the winner is not resolved by racecraft but by intra-team politics, especially if it’s not obvious from the start that something like that might take place.
My suggestion for a rule change is the following:
Team orders that would change the results of the race are forbidden, unless the WDC standing of the disadvantaged driver is such that he can not by his own merit challenge for the WDC.
For example, before this race, Massa was 78 points behind the WDC leader (Hamilton). Even if Massa had won all the remaining races, he would be able to get only 63 more points than Lewis, if Lewis were to become 2nd in all the races. Thus, Felipes claim for WDC is not entirely in his own hands anymore, but requires misfortune for Lewis, and thus team orders could be used against him.
Such a rule would forbid team orders early in the season, but would give a chance for them eventually, before the very ending stages of the season. Also, with a rule allowing team orders at some point, everyone would know to expect them and such shock that at least I experienced this weekend could be averted.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
In theory it is not that difficult as there are two championships (one for constructors and one for drivers).
1. The swap did not alter anything for the total points Ferrari scored yesterday.
2. The drivers were in those positions because of on-track events, by swapping places the public was robbed of a straight fight.
The fact that the driver championship is more valued than the constructor is not the public’s fault.
The sport evolves: teams cannot field more than 2 cars, drivers can no longer jump into their team mate’s car if theirs break down during a race, a driver has to qualify his car himself, we (the public) do not want to see staged results, etc. etc.
Therefore I think team orders in any shape or form should be banned completely!
In reality it is more complex…
Maybe we should ban radio communication and only allow the pitboard to inform the drivers about the position and the gaps to other drivers, thereby empowering the driver to race his race!
A button could be installed in the car that after the driver presses it notifies the pitcrew of an unscheduled stop for fuel, tires or a new front wing.
This would mean that a driver himself can decide wheter or not he wants to let his team mate through…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
Well, I would like to make two points.
Fisrtly, to me teamorders should be legal when one driver is running for the championship, while the other driver is mathematicaly out of the equation. Only exception I can think of during the season is when both drivers are on a different strategie.
I mean Red Bull got the blame in Turkey that it wasn’t handled properly, but I would rather see that kind of action than the charade of last sunday. But may be I am just a stupid fan who lives in an ideal world.
Secondly, what I don’t understand is why Ferrari is willing to jeopordize their 1-2 finish in handling this in such an abviously amateurish way. I mean instruct Massa to miss a corner or whatever, Vettel was 5 or 6 seconds off so there was no danger. But by doing it like they did, they are putting their heads on the chopping-block and are just anxiously waiting whether the FIA will strike or not.
Don’t get me wrong I think Ferrari totally deserved the 1-2 as they were quick all weekend, but as usual they have to do it the Italian way
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
This whole scenario is just more evidence of F1’s self-obsessed, navel-gazing view.
Evidently Ferrari don’t care what the audience thinks. They don’t care that we all watch F1 to see racing. Not only that, they genuinely seem to believe that we’re stupid enough not to realise what they were doing.
What is more, the reaction from some F1 journalists, like James here, David Coultard, and Martin Brundle seems to be that team orders are ok, and just a fact of F1 life. Well, they shouldn’t be!
Whether it was “right for the championship” or not is largely irrelevant – the show on Sunday was completely ruined. The quality of the show must always take precedence over the needs of any individual team or driver, otherwise F1 is doomed to fail in the long term.
We want to see genuine racing. Is that too much to ask?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
For me the problem yesterday was that we were denied the sporting contest that we thought we were watching. I have followed F1 for many years, and yesterday was really looking forward to the race. I had the live timing screen on my laptop and the new Car Position tracker on the BBC website, I commented that it felt like I was on the pitwall! I am not a Ferrari or Alonso fan but I was enjoying the race as it unfolded – particularly wanting to see if Alonso could get past Massa. I cheered when Massa got ahead at the start, was enthralled through the Pit Stop phase and enjoyed seeing the tension that developed when they came up behind back-markers. It was great following that part of the race through the new interactive tools.
But what was the point? What a team like Ferrari will never understand or presumably care about is that I felt stupid when they pulled their stunt! Why had a let myself get emotionally caught up in a race that was never really a race at all? Some might say that I shouldn’t get that involved – but isn’t that why we watch sport?
On the other hand … I agree that there are times when team orders are appropriate – and the case where Raikkonen won the Championship is an excellent example. No outcry because F1 fans are more sophisticated than many give them credit for. It fitted with the emotion of the race – we knew that Ferrari had to do that to win the Championship; I would defend it as the right thing to do. So, there is a ‘line’ where team orders are acceptable and where they are not. All we want – in relation to team orders – is that you don’t make fools out of us! If it’s clear what is going on and there is a good reason for it – then tell us before the start of the race. Then we can understand what is happening and it becomes part of our enjoyment of the spectacle.
This could be done very simply – at a certain point in the season allow the teams to designate a Number 1 and Number 2 driver. Then the teams know, the Drivers know and the Fans know what is going on. The point when this designation can happen can be debated. So it could be 2/3rds of the way through the season. It could be when it’s no longer mathematically possible for one driver to win the WDC, or it could be a combination of the two. Let’s say that Ferrari had lodged that Alonso was No 1 with the FIA – this would have made an enormous difference to the fans perception of the race. Massa gets a great start, but can’t break away from Alonso. Everyone knows that he is going to have to yield for the sake of the Championship – including his competitors – so Vettel knows that he has to get past Alonso before they switch places and attacks in order to do so. How it would have gone from there of course we can’t say. What we can say is that it would be better than the mess F1 has got itself into now!
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k2san Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:17 am
I’ve been reading the comments for the last 15 minutes and am amazed on a lot of the reactions being a bit naive untill yours Mark. I was in exactly the same position with laptop and all; enjoying how the race was unfolding. I had a deep look at myself why I felt so disgusted when it happened and came to the same conclusion. It is how you receive it. Everyone can understand team orders when it is indeed logical or appropriate as you mentioned. Almost all fans simply cannot accept this one. Too early and too obvious. The solutions given like half way or mathematical or switching points within the teammembers etc etc are no solutions. When you have two competitions at the same time: driver and team; it (teamorders) cannot be excluded and actually it should not be excluded since to exclude it contradicts the purpose. The only solution the fans would really understand is transparancy. Let the team publically announce their intentions and with it risk the wrath of the public with it. Before the race! Like you said everyone understands when the need is there and is it wrong? No. But do it openly and give a reason for it. That will lead to discussions and with it the fanbase will pressure the team (and therefore the sponsors) for making the right descision. There’s no need to make this “official” with paperwork to the stewards. Openess by making the statement to the press before the race would suffice. Open statement to the driver “teamorder move over” would then be as clear as it can be. So within mine (and I believe your reasoning) would the pressure of the public be enough for this to work? Now that question I cannot answer. I believe myself it would but James I’m very curious on your opinion about it!
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Mark A Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Yes, I can go with that … and there is probably no need to have any sort of time limit through the season on it because teams will have to think through the logic of their positions when they come to negotiate driver contracts and so on.
I think that underlying this is a fascinating philosophical discussion about the limits of ‘law’ in controlling human nature – especially in a highly competitive world like F1. Fascinating to see if they can resolve it!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:09 pm
Banning team orders has always been a farce. It is and always will be unenforceable. It is just too difficult to distinguish. What if Ferrari did run a two second slower pit stop for Massa? Without employees testifying against employers you cannot prove it. The only real way to deal with this issue is to repeal the rule.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:09 pm
What Ferrari did was wrong not because i think that but because its in the rules. I think the WMSC should make an example of this or clarify/tighten the rule.
If Alsonso goes on to win the championship by just a few points then $100,000 would seem a cheap way to win a second championship and in my mind would also be a “what if” chanpionship.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:10 pm
The difference is the arrogance with which Ferrari handled the press, and through them the public. Had Ferrari stonewalled – exactly as Massa wisely did in the press conference – everybody would have been a little miffed, but it would have blown over in a day.
Instead, they somehow found the stones to stand up and imply repeatedly that *we* were the foolish ones for questioning their obviously distorted description of events. They broke a rule (however impractical it may be) so I understand that they can’t come right out and say it, but they really should learn the graceful art of silence.
Just for being such jerks, to the public and to Massa, they should have their race result invalidated. Woo hoo, another Hamilton victory
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:10 pm
I think it is too early in the season to have ordered this kind of team order and not allowing Felipe the chance to defend his position – perhaps Fernando would have found a way past, perhaps not. It left a very bitter taste and was unnecessary. I think “team tactics” can be acceptable where drivers are asked to “hold station” late in the race and not fight for a position – but to ask a driver to move over for the other is shocking – except when it comes down to the last race or so when one of the drivers is no longer in contention for the championship as given the example when Massa allowed Raikkonen through to allow him to win the championship.
PS. The more I hear of Fernando’s rantings on the radio the less I like him …
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:11 pm
I’m a big McLaren fan and have no wish to see Ferrari win in F1. In other circumstances, I would normally laugh out load if Ferrari were severely punished and/or disqualified from any race result. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t “hate” Ferrari – However, I felt that manipulated the result in that fateful day in Austria 2002 and that was unacceptable.
The result in this weekends’ German GP was a totally different set of circumstances and I, for one, feel that Ferrari were totally justified in implementing team orders in such circumstances.
2010 is turning out to be such a superb F1 championship with at least 5 top drivers fighting for the title. As much as I like Filipe Massa, Germany aside, he has not really been on the same form as Alonso this season and it is understandable that Ferrari feel that Alonso is the driver within their team who has a more realistic chance of fighting both Red Bull and both McLaren drivers for the title.
Everyone knows that team orders have been present in F1 since the very beginning and should remain so, as long as they are not used in situations such as Austria 2002 when such a dominant car/team is present in the championship as was the case with Ferrari and a certain M. Schumacher.
I, for one, see nothing wrong with what Ferrari did in Germany except for the way it was handled. I hope the FIA and WMSC sees sense in this matter and re-writes the rule as regards team orders. At the end of the day, all teams in F1 use team orders in one way or another, why should Ferrari be any different?
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Kev Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Great points mate. And coming from a McLaren fan makes me even happier.
The point many fail to notice here is that Ferrari didn’t order Massa to move over for Alonso. They could have also meant to defending less aggressively in-case Alonso makes a move again, which I felt Alonso would have certainly done. Fernando was HALF a second faster in qualifying and has been the saving grace of Ferrari this season.
I feel Massa intentionally left the throttle so as to show the world that he was being robbed. But he was just informed through radio that the car behind you which is your team-mate is faster than you, has more points than you and has been quicker than you all through the season; so try to maximise the advantage for the team.
Massa chose a stupid move and is trying to get the sympathy of the press with his ‘I let him pass’ comments.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:11 pm
Great, unbiased commentary James.
Read some other blogs and some extremely biased viewpoints are expressed.
As usual, when i read here i can be assured of quality F1 commentary.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
I think some transparency needs to be introduced.
1. If it is in the contract make it known.
2. No team orders, other than published contractual, until a reasonable point in the season (halfway?)
3. None whilst the ‘2nd’ driver is within a percentage of the ‘1st’ total points.
If this were the case there could be no more arguments about bets etc. People would then be making their punts on known info.
I personally think yesterday was a disgrace, in their cynical denials, and for a very small notional gain.
If for some reason Alonso is unable to race, and Massa suddenly comes good it will seem ridiculous. I remember Irvine handing a place to Schumi in France, only for MS to break his leg in Silverstone, and then spend the remainder of the season trying to give points back to Irvine.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
I don’t like team orders.
Team orders clearly exist, and happen every race. It has always been this way and always will. I would rather know what is going on, than be deceived by hidden team orders such as save fuel and the like.
SV said yesterday after the race in the press conference, “you do’t pay our checks, the teams do”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
F1 is a team sport and the drivers are part of that team and as such, under any form of corporate heirarchy, must adhere to rules and regulations ( health and safety and bridge crashing issues should be exempted)laid down by those who employ them. I don’t see any drivers bringing their own cars along to race.
Team orders should be allowed at all times as long as they do not bring the sport into disrepect or put anyone in any extra danger than they would already be in by attending a motor racing event.
However, if the FIA are going to allow team orders again, then they should also abolish the blue flag rule and stop forcing back markers to pull over to let front runners through easily.
Perhaps then we will see even more exciting racing where those with the skills rather than just the better cars will have to prove their worth rather than just making sure their team thinks that everyone else owes them a right of passage.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
James Allen
I would like to commend you for being so rational about this matter, and avoiding the hyperbole that has been prevalent elsewhere.
As for your point of only permitting team orders in the final 1/3 of the season, I disagree. Either permit them, or don’t permit them. If the latter case remains, then it is time that the FIA became more stringent on teams that, amongst other things, instruct their drivers to “save fuel”.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
Dear James,
I feel for Ferrari and your right that a complete ban is unjust. However, as a fan of formula-1, may i suggest that pass over, should be relayed to Charles Witting, during the race. maybe have a race engineer radio in to Witting asking permission to do so? That way a safety issue can also be looked at? Just a thought. cheers
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
It’s all about the way Ferrari and Alonso handle such situations. Alonso actually tried to pass Massa on track and failed; not only once. Being quicker is one thing, overtaking is another.
Leaving the actual racing aside, because of the rule about team orders, Ferrari could not plead guilty. Thus, they had to lie in everybody’s face and try convincing the rest of us we are just stupid.
For me, this is the biggest concern, the one of honesty to the public.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
Team orders should be banned, as long as a driver is still mathematically in with a chance of winning the championship. As soon as he is too far behind and cannot win the championship, I see no reason for then allowing the team to dictate the drivers order to maximise their chances of winning both championships.
I agree orders should be allowed, but while both drivers are still in with a shout, I can’t see the reason why Ferrari did what they did. The team points are unaffected, Vettel wasn’t much of a threat and the difference in points is 7 between drivers. The order in the championship wouldn’t have been affected either, Massa would have been 1 place closer to the lead. Given Alonso’s propensity to blowing up his engine and crashing this season, who know’s what might happen in the next races.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
James,
Now we all know you are a fervent Ferrari supporter (having named your son Enzo does give the game away) but come on please you seriously cannot justify what happened on Sunday.
Without fans there wouldn’t be any television coverage and zero advertising revenue therefore the F1 teams, drivers and journalists wouldn’t have a job, so I really get annoyed when people such as David Coulthard and yourself say that team orders are part of the structure of F1. People watch F1 because they want to see the best drivers in the world racing the best engineered cars in the world against each other, they don’t want to see the best drivers in the world race to the first corner and turn it into a procession, it turns off fans and ultimately kills the sport.
So what if Massa and Alonso touch while fighting for the lead this is what makes F1 such a fascinating enthralling sport, fans want to see racing from the start to the finish and especially when its two team mates who have the same machinery its the drivers skill that wins him the race not the teams best interest.
F1 teams and its following circus really should wise up to the fact that they don’t own the sport and believe they can do what they want whenever they feel like it, the fans determine whether f1 is a success or not and taking the racing element out of the sport will turn them off, just look at Moto GP Lorenzo fighting tooth and nail against Rossi both on Yamaha’s, racing to the line its why people tune in to watch no other reason.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
No idea how you can say this is not race fixing James. Did Ferrari fix the result of the race? Answer is unquestionably yes – therefore it is, by definition, race fixing and I’m suprised you would suggets otherwise. I have heard far too many commentators over the past few days saying ‘leaving aside the breaking of the rule part’ – but you can’t really leave it aside can you? Is F1 a sport or not? Continually saying that ‘thye all do it’ is no excuse. If you break the rules you should be prepared for the consequences. F1 is like an old boys network and everyone is constantly out to get away with as much as they possible can. As for the fine – would Ferrari buy a 1-2 result for $100,000? I would imagine the answer is yes so this is no penalty at all. F1 and its inner circle and its commentators continually demonstrates how out of touch it is with fans by glossing over rule breaking or even cracking a metaphorical wry smile. Why do we have all this fuss about increasing overtaking in F1 if teams are allowed to settle things between their own cars and remove the need for it? Alonso would have had to try and overtake Massa were it not for team orders – makes a mockery of the overtaking focus group does it not?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
As James pointed out, Alonso is at the centre of this, as he was with the Renault race fix.
And Spygate.
Is there a connection here?
Just a thought!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
This is a team sport. It’s strange that a team cannot manage their drivers however they feel appropriate for any race situation. We are talking about literally tens of millions of dollars and a single place difference in the Constructors’ Championship is worth a staggering amount of revenue from sponsorship exposure and Championships winnings.
DC alluded to previous F1 races which allowed drivers to actually change cars with their team mates if it meant they would win races or championships.
The only counter point is that team mates should race each other for the fans anjoyment – but we’ve seen just three races ago what can happen and the resultant fall out. Why should teams have to suffer for the sake of a rule everyone breaks anyway?! I’m pretty sure that fuel-saving, pit stop strategy, tyre strategy, wing allocation(!), coded messages etc, are all applied by all teams throughout every race – these are surely variations of ‘race manipulation’ of some kind….?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
One of the comments above state that ´Ferrari did it so blatantly´. Sorry, a ¨Ferrari employee´did it so blatantly. I have to agree with David Coultard´s comment that this should not have been given to Smedley to deal with. Domenical should have done it. I have no problem with team orders and I have followed F1 since the very first race at Silverstone 60 years ago. OK. There is now a rule since 2002, forbidding them, but we are not stupid, they have been happening with coded messages ever since then. Smedley just decided to open the floodgates with this. I hope he has a cast iron contract, otherwise he could be unemployed in the near future.
And thanks James. I have read several articles about this in the last 24 hours, but yours, as always, is the most concise, clear and unbiased.
Love your website.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Cheers
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
Those who think team orders don’t come into play in every Formula One race are fooling themselves. And the result is that we get drivers lying to fans because the sport forces them to say there are no team orders in F1.
As happened in Germany, how many times this year have seen the McLaren pairing hold station for most of a race?
Does anyone truly believe that after the crash in Turkey that Red Bull didn’t tell Sebastian Vettel to stay behind Mark Webber the next time he’s in a similar situation?
Banning team orders takes away teamwork in a team sport. For that reason alone, it is a dumb idea.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
The problem is with that argument in the last race of the season when you let your team mate past to take the title or have a shot at it. Its when you have no shot at the title yourself.
Its natural, to defer to help your team mate and ultimatly the team take the title. If that was the case with vettel, mark wouldn’t need to be told. In fact you’d both sit down and work out a dual strategy to win.
Both of these guys still have a shot and it is almost as bad as austria in 2002. Personally I say dock ferrari the 43 constructors points and leave the drivers intact. Thats a good precedent too i think.
Thank god there was a bike RACE on later in the day.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:15 pm
Superb post, James! I would never have been able to put it the way you do, yet I totally subscribe it. Five stars!!
As to the possible solution, I do not know what to say. Maybe the best would be to analyse it on a case by case basis because there are too many circumstances to be taken into account that it would make the wording of the rule simply unpracticable or leading to misbehaviours against the spirit of the rule. On the other hand, such policy would give too much power to stewards and disparity of results would turn to a feeling of despotism or favouritism (unless, there were permanent stewards, independently of the circuit where the race is held).
Thank you for your work, James, I really appreciate it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
I think that comparing it to an end-of-season switch when the championship is clearly defined is ludicrous. It’s an apples and oranges situation and people have a clear understanding of why the team need to manoeuvre their drivers at a close of season battle.
But to do this mid-season with no real worries during the race is not sporting. Felipe made the best of his race today and deserved to finish first (if he continued to hold off Fernando for the remaining laps).
Therefore follows our disgust.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
I think the biggest problem is that Massa is still in the title hunt. The gap between the two drivers is still only 38 points and would have been less if Massa had been allowed to win. If Alonso has one DNF and massa finishes first the gap will be really tight between them.
I personally have no problem with team orders but only at a point when one driver mathematically cannot win the title.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
Previous post was getting it off my chest.
No team orders until one driver cannot win championship.
Incidents like Hamilton/Kovalienen can quite easily be policed by time sheets. Alonso was not significantly quicker than Massa once past whereas Hamilton dissappeared into the distance.
The FIA put an official into the Mclaren garage, there is no reason why there shouldn’t be one in every garage monitoring all conversation.
Every car must carry the same amount of fuel this fuel saving nonsense is spoiling the racing and giving opportunities to implement team orders ie no overtaking after fuel saving insrtuction given.
Anyroad fuel saving is diametrically opposed to racing, greener engines yes but foot to the floor PLEASE.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
There was no outcry when Massa moved over in the 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix, or when Kimi moved over in the 2008 Chinese Grand Prix.
The reason?
It was done in a subtle and respectful way, rather than in the “Autrian 2002″ way. Now, we´re back at the Barrichello days here in Brazil. I feel sorry for Massa. It´s his fault. He should have been more subtle, simple as that.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
Simple:
- Any switch in on track positions between team-mates to be carried out through drive-through self imposed penalty;
- if any driver yields position on track by slowing down and moving over, he shall be handed a drive-through by stewards;
- attempts to conceal this by going purposely off track, will be investigated after the race by studying telemetry.
- infrigements will be treated with post-race drive through equivalent.
So, you want to switch positions, ok, do so but at a cost of constructor points. It doesn’t make sense that any team does this and loses nothing in terms of constructor points.
Otherwise, simply create one driver teams with support drivers who will know what exactly they do in that team.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
I think Ferrari may have tried to do a pit-stop swap. Usually the leading driver would get first preference when to stop, so it seemed unusual that Alonso pitted before Massa.
However, it is possible that Massa/Smedley elected not to pit, considering he is slow to get up to speed on the hard tyres and this could have given Alonso the lead.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
Given the confessed level of team orders that go on “behind the scenes” (thanks to the words of Anthony Davidson on Radio 5), frankly, I’ve lost all faith in there being even the slightest amount of sport left in F1.
Until team orders are brought back and it is admitted openly they carried on with them all along, or they’re *ACTUALLY* banned and properly policed and the sporting qualities brought back into F1 the whole pretense of it being genuine racing is completely dispelled. It’s all currently a sham. I only hope more people step up and tell the powers that be that they won’t take such farce in the guise of racing. Here’s to hoping that some day we can enjoy the racing coverage in future without the whining, without the politics and without the pantomime farce. Feels like it could be a long way off.
The only ones to come out of this, in my eyes, in a positive light are Rob Smedley and Filipe Massa. They did what they had to do “for the team” but made damned sure that they showed they knew it was the wrong thing to do.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:18 pm
Eliminate the rule entirely.
Then require each team to designate a #1 and a #2 driver before each race.
At any time during the race they may then order #1 past #2, but not vice versa.
Ofc the teams would never agree to this, but w/e.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:18 pm
The rule should be dropped. It is impossible to enforce at any stage of the season. It also has no place in a team sport. Team orders may sometimes be unpopular but they exist in all teams at a fundamental level. Having your cars hold position after a certain point in the race is really no different to having them change position. You can argue that the latter is altering the outcome of the race but, unless it’s Austria, it’s impossible to really know what the outcome would have been.
Education is all that is required. Make the orders legal and transparent and educate the spectators (many of whom already understand even if they’re not happy about it) and the media that team orders are a necessary component of team sports and team strategy.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:19 pm
Thanks for analysing the facts in such a balanced way. Some other journalist self proclaim that they represent the fans, but to me, I think you are the only one I have found that does that, without histrionism or total bias.
I like team orders, it gives F1 another component of strategy that makes it even more complex and interesting, and that actually would end up making bigger and better fights amongst different teams.
But thats me, I would understand others don´t.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:19 pm
Perhaps only allowing team orders when only one of your drivers has a mathematical chance of winning the championship.
Also in this scenario I’d imagine most drivers would understand and would help their team mate without too much opposition
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:20 pm
Question, why does a team have two drivers? The only way to avoid team orders is to have single driver teams, where the team “put all their eggs in one basket”.
My view is that teams “require” two drivers to give them the maximum opportunity should an issue occur with one of their drivers. A consequence of this is allowing the team to maximise their advertising and branding, which drives branding and fundng of the team. Very much a self perputating situation.
However unpopular, at the end of the day F1 is a business, where decisions are made that allow maximum returns for the stakeholders involved.
For the drivers part, their talent allows them to *try* and influence the decision of their bosses.
This is like any company that any of us work for. The way you go about your business, and portray yourself, allows you to influence your own outcomes.
Fair? Probably not, but real life, yes!
Entitlement and fairness rarely comes into it.
Finally, I agree with James. I think this is being blown out of proportion from a media in the traditional low-news story summer season!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:20 pm
From Ferrari’s point of view, they did not affect the outcome of the race, they still won, so did not break the rule.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:21 pm
From a different perspective – how about re-instating refuelling during pitstops so a faster driver has that additional (and crucial) avenue to use his speed via in-lap or out-lap hotlaps?
Take Britain 2006 – Schu used his outlap on fresh tyres to overtake Raikkonen despite the latter having an extra lap or two of fuel. Otherwise there is the attractive skill of pumping in hotlaps before a pitstop if your opponent in front has less fuel.
I may be in a minority, but I really detest this one-pitstop-then-follow-the-leader kind of racing we’ve had in 2010. If you give two teammates in identical cars a reasonable opportunity to race each other on a dry day, then you’re less likely to find situations like yesterday when team orders are necessary.
If you’re honest, could you really have expected Alonso to endanger a collision and pass his teammate on a dry day whilst chewing up his tyres sliding in Massa’s dirty air lap after lap?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:21 pm
They should remove the rule and reintroduce team orders. It is simply impossible to police.
In a strict sense, Massa was not given a team order; he was only told that Alonso was quicker and he took appropriate action. It is lame, but I don’t expect the FIA to do anything about it.
Other teams are doing the same via ‘preserve fuel’ messages. I don’t see the difference and I think Michael Schumacher had a point yesterday and so did DC; in the last race all of a sudden they’re OK, but earlier in the season they are not ? Grow up will you !
As fans, we should quite simply be aware of them in order to see through the PR mist.
I find it actually strange that Massa even needed that message and that he made it so obvious: FA has been quicker all year, ahead in the championship and he got his contract extension. All he had to do was miss a corner on those hard tires he has problems with. He could learn a trick or two from Eddie Irvine and his sudden ‘brake problems’.
An alternative solution would be to limit teams to just one car. Off course, then you would have team principles having a chat with other teams they supply engines to and who happen to drive in front of them …
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:21 pm
let each team have 3 chances during the season that they can issue a team order on the track. problem solved. outside of that, the teams will have to manage driver order through the pit stops, if there are any…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:22 pm
Team order ban should be removed and all radio messages made available to the public(Either on the TV feed or afterwards in highlights or transcriptions).
If Team orders are employed the teams can answer to the fans and media.
Pretending there hasn’t been team in orders in every race this season is insulting to the fans intelligence.
Team orders are part of F1
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:22 pm
Team orders should be permitted once it is mathmatically impossible for one driver to win the wdc.
Until then, as long as the rule is in force teams should be penalised for breaking it and I applaud the stewards for having some backbone.
If I bet £10 on Massa to win a race I want to know that he has as much chance as his team mate of doing so. At times like this F1 commentators, pundits and the community circle the wagons, shrug and say ‘that’s F1′ – not good enough unless you stop calling F1 a sport and just label it light entertainment.
I’m not interested in paying the price of a ticket to see a stage managed event. With the result being planned the way it was yesterday we may as well have all switched off by half race rather than waiting for a battle for the lead that never came.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
Personally I have no problem with team orders when they are logical (ie in Alonso’s case he is light years ahead of Massa in terms of points with Massa looking out of sorts up to now). I do feel that driver orders should be legal in the last third of the season (as you suggested) and only in the first stint of the race to avoid a situation where one driver leads for practically the whole race only to move over towards the end of the race.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
I would suggest:
a) Fine for Ferrari should be raised to $500,000.
b) No team orders over radio communication until it is mathematically impossible for one of the drivers in the same team to win the championship.
These types of orders have an impact on the moral and perception of a driver.
In some ways what Ferrari has done to Massa is so demoralising that it could be construed as “constructive dismissal”.
He is not mathematically out of the championship, but has effectively been told that it is pointless for him to perform to the very best of his ability.
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senna Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:19 am
you are well known, as an alonso hater. Don’t you think your penalty would be somehow different if there was hamilton the one that commited the rule brake?
I think massa had the chance to disobey the order if he thought wasn’t right. Like barrichello before him, he went for the money, and the security of a dream job.
IIt’s a pitty for massa, because he was the rightful winner last sunday, but this f1, has the weird hability to shoot itself in the foot, on many different ways.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
First I would like to thank you for this well thought and balanced view article. I saw some postings from people that don’t understand the essence of F1, which in my view is a competition on many fronts and a big business as well.
The driver’s championship is just a portion of the entire mix. Let’s not forget F1 is a big business.Ferrari pays their drivers to do what they are told. And they pay them BIG.
Ferrari imposed team orders to allow Massa a shot at the championship. Same with Raikkonen, as James reminded us. The same Ferrari gave full support to Massa when he was injured in Hungary. Nobody would have blamed them if they would not have renewed his contract this year, based on the mediocre showings of late. BUT, Ferrari renewed Massa’s contract, so he should be grateful.
I’m sure Ferrari would tell Alonso to move over for Massa next year, if the champion situation dictates so.
Let’s not forget that these casrs we see these drivers palying with, belong to their teams. The owners call the shots and F1 is more of a business than a sport.
Where else we hear every week about sponsors money, revenue split, salaries, etc?
People should think of the whole story from all angles, not only theirs.
Now we’ll see an even more determined Alonso to prove he’s the better Ferrari man, trying to beat the Hamiltons and the Vettels of the world. And even a better Massa that would fight to show that Ferrari were wrong. Exciting.
Ferrari have done what anybody else would have done.
“Lewis, save fuel”. “Mark, the oil is running out”. “Seb, the brakes are marginal”, and so on.
The way Smedley handle it was really bad, and as James said, let the team down and exposed them.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
I think your analysis in this article is well balanced. Ferrari had a few bad races already, so they can not afford to have something like a Vettel/Webber come together in Turkey. You just need to look at points of RBR driver to understand how stupid it was for RBR to let it happen.
The team order ban should be lifted, but balant manipulation of race can be dealt with like race fixing, not team order. I am sure FIA can find a distinction between those.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
I think that we can assume that team orders can be “detected” i.e. the race stewards should be given more room to “determine” team orders, not only by listening to radio transmission but also look at track position, pit to car signals etc.
I think the rules should also become more firm/concrete:
I think team orders should be permitted under certain conditions:
- if driver B has 50% or less points than driver A, then the team can employ teamorders
- if a team employs teamorders outside the above, then the punishment should be exclusion from the race results. No need for WMSC etc.
I think from a team perspective the 50% rule is also fair i.e. protects team and driver B
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
excellent points James.Formula One is a a team sport. I voted “mildly outraged”. in my opinion this was in no way comparable to 2002 where if my memory serve me well, Barrichello was dominant and as you said, it was early in the season and MS was far ahead in points in a dominant car. the first year i followed F1 from beginning to end was 1964. in the final race Lorenzo Bandini moved over on the final lap to allow Ferrari teammate John Surtees to pass and thus win the WDC over Graham Hill. that was what was expected. no, i never want to see what transpired in 2002 repeated, but . . .i don’t know where to draw the line. to me it’s not a black and white situation.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
Only the honest (or maybe literate) sections of the media are calling them cheats
From Dictionary.com
Cheater – To violate rules deliberately, as in a game.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
very nice article. I think team orders are inevitable in F1 and why not? you tell me dont the managers in football devise strategy for a match and sometimes they can even substitute the strikers with midfielders or vice versa depending on how the situation pans out.. F1 is still a team sport yet comprises only of 2 guys however the team should be able to use the 2 resources for the better results. previously as well in 2 races, massa caused Alonso to slow down in australia and china, had team been able to move alonso ahead, he would have better placed in the championship and hence more points for the “team”
some would argue its individual sport and how u motivate the second driver, i think in order to “deserve” a win, you also need to show a close quali and no one knows how much setup work is done by alonso and massa? only team knows who is doing much of hte workload… who is contributing and who has earned the number 1 place… it makes sense.. it wasn’t like this in australia or china.. team have seen something that they are backing one over the other…
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sky Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
i might just add.. enforcing team orders rule is going to be very hard.. teams already have code words like “conserve fuel” or please change to setting xyz etc… no one objected to these disguised “team orders”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:25 pm
Since we have had the ban on team orders I think that this has been good for the sport. I think the ban should stay and be more rigorously enforced. However, if there absolutely have to be team orders I think I could live with the following:
1) They should only be allowed once one driver has no mathematical chance of winning the championship.
2) It must never be allowed to affect the podium positions of a race.
4) Team orders should be confined to allowing a pass only.
5) No driver should be allowed to deliberately adversely affect the race of another driver to the detriment of his race, and the advantage of his team mate. I think that rule used to exist before the blanket ban on team orders.
I do find it hard to agree that there has been an over reaction when 82.3% of respondents to the poll on your previous post where mildly or extremeley unhappy (65.6%) at the time of writing. That sounds like a majority of people espressing a reasonable opinion. I think that some people are under estimating the desire of fans to see fair play, I think that this is in fact an under reaction. If Ferrari get away with only the fine are we to believe that the damage done to the sport is 1,000 less than Mclaren’s spying without taking into account the loss of money from constructors points that year. I think not.
If any other brand had run a customer survey and got such a negative response I imagine that they would be thinking very carefully about their future. Otherwise you could find casual fans (and those who feel completely disenfranchised) switching off.
Perhaps it is time for another FOTA fan survey on this very subject.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:27 pm
This is a team sport with the drivers heading the game on the track. So allow all team orders and take away the need to “police” it.Whatever internal relations get affected by team orders, it will be up to team managment to deal with it.
I say allow this and let us have a great rest of the 2010 season.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:27 pm
You miss the point again James I’m afraid.
There is a rule, rightly or wrongly, and Ferrari broke it, end of story. That point was made by Eddie Jordan et al. A rule is a rule and neither Ferrari or any other team are able to pick and choose which rule they obey.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Well I think you’ll find I made that point very clearly in the first paragraphs. Take another look
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Terry Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:52 am
If you favour 1 driver, enter 1 car.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
Last time I looked there were 2 Championships . . a Driver one and a Team one. Ferrari had a 1-2 regardless of the order of Massa and Alonso so they got their points for the TEAM.
For the TEAM they didn’t need to do what they did . . . they did it for Alonso and the Drivers Championship.
What to do ? I would like the WMSC to come down hard on Ferrari to send a message to the other teams . . . Team orders are banned !
Let the drivers make arrangements between themselves in the situation described by James, not the Team.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
“Banning” Team orders is laughable at best. There is not a plausible way to do so. It is a business as well as a competition, and the team is obliged to do what it deems to be best for it’s success. Expecting anything less is ridiculous.
The governing/sanctioning bodies need to quit gerrymandering the rules to achieve perceived parity.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
I don’t think FOTA will stand behind Ferrari, i can’t see it, what Ferrari did was in clear Breach of the rules, (personally i think we need team orders but in a controlled way for example when one driver is out of the championship leader within a certain percentage so if you were to have less than 40% of the championship leaders points after round 13 then team orders can be intoduced) Ferrari should be punished they broke the rules, even if it was the right thing to do.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:29 pm
and final rule:
- team orders can be allowed when driver B is not anymore fighting for the WDC
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
Another point. Supposing you had put a bet on Massa to win and this had happened, how would you feel??
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
First off, the FIA will need to act logically and unemotionally when deciding whether to sanction further.
I’ve read cries from all over to have Ferrari and Alonso stripped of points and the win. But why the need to punish Fernando – as a driver – exclusively? It was the team’s decision to have Massa cede the place, Alonso just drove past a slowing car! So if anyone is to be punished it should just be limited to the team and the results must stand because the drivers were just following orders from their employers. Plus, does anyone have any proof Alonso told Ferrari to let him through? Even if anyone did, the decision was still Ferrari’s AND Massa’s to make.
Second, No one seems to have been complaining about Hamilton passing Kovalainen in a similar manner back in Germany ‘08. And unlike the genuine sympathy for Webber back in the British GP, a lot of the negative reaction seems to be stemming, not from the situation itself, but rather from a direct hatred towards Alonso. Whatever it is the Spaniard does, people always try to find a way to undermine him. Now THAT is ridiculous.
Yes, I was initially one of those people who cried foul right after Austria 2002, but through the years I understand the real culprit was Barrichello. Heading into that race Schumacher was on 46pts out of 5 races, Barrichello was on 6pts! So by then, Ferrari already knew who they were going to support. No matter how many races there were left to run. It’s always easy to ponder on “what ifs” – as Barrichello loves to do – but the world isn’t built on that premise.
Team orders should be legalized. What should be banned are all those artificial rules and interventions from third party vendors (e.g. bringing Canada spec tires to other races so they degrade faster) to spice up “the show”.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:30 pm
I dont think the public would have a problem with team orders in the remaining few races of the season if one team mate is clearly out of contention. In that situation it is likely that two teams are fighting it out. However on Sunday the drivers should have been left to fight it out on the track. I’m getting a bit tired of Alonso constantly having to have his own way even if he is the faster driver. At this stage of the year he should have to pass on the track and not just be handed a clear passage to the win. I didnt think Massa was driving that slow for the majority of the race as he finished only 4 seconds behind Alonso in the end.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:32 pm
Its the controversies which keep me interested in F1 these days. This race would have been boring without it. Otherwise yeah I spent most of the race with it just playing in the background while I browsed the web.
I guess keep the rule just as it is. Illegal, but vague enough to encourage players to brake it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:32 pm
I believe the current stance on team orders leads to hypocricy and needs to be reworked. Come end of season and its about positions, all that are complaining now are suddenly guilty of the same thing…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:32 pm
dunno if the final third of the season wud work james. thats five or six races. this year both webber n vettel or button n hamilton might be in with a shot when that point comes. then what?
maybe team orders should be allowed only when one of the two drivers has a mathematical chance of winning the championship and the other doesnt.like the 2007 n 2008 example with ferrari involving kimi n massa.that would bring in only the last 2 maybe 3 races into count n is more acceptable than the current situation.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:32 pm
At last some calmness in all the hype!
My thoughts on the WMSC hearing: I think a slap on the wrist will suffice. Maybe something like a suspended one-race ban. Nothing to affect this year’s championship I hope.
All F1 fans will know that team orders happen. Ferrari made a hash of it.
So I agree a modification of the existing rule would be a good idea. No team orders for the first third of the year is one option, but is it policeable?
I’m not sure how you can legislate for team orders as long as the teams can implement these subtly. E.g., slightly longer pit-stop, save fuel, etc…
It’s a team sport after all. Drivers are paid employees of the teams. I prefer to see drivers race head-to-head, but I’ve watched F1 long enough to know that the teams act in their own best interest.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
In “real life” we can take the example of laws which are
ignored by the majority being laws which should be stricken from the books.
And so it is with team orders. Teams know best what they want their drivers to do. We, the fans, may not agree, but unless and until we actually OWN the team,
our opinions about what the team “should” do are not meaningful in the real world.
So, team orders need to be made legal. Some fans might not like it, but that’s the nature of life : there will always be things you don’t like, and whining won’t change that.
In the case of Alonso being given a free pass around Massa, it’s been painfully obvious that Alonso has been much faster than Massa, and this would lead any impartial observer to agree that of the two Ferrari drivers, Alonso has the better chance of winning the WDC. Ferrari are not engaged in a popularity contest, they are engaged in a contest for the world championship.
And frankly most of you who are whinging will never own a Ferrari anyway, so why should Ferrari care what you think ?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
Christian Horner seems to forget that just a fortnight back he had removed the newer wing fitted on Weber and put it on Vettel’s car. Obviously he is at a disadvantage as Alonso now has closed up to Vettel. He would rather have Massa getting another 7 points from the race.
Though it may be interesting for the public to see teammates take each other out of the race, There is a strong business case for someone spending hundreds of millions to make sure that both cars finish and finish in a particular order
I think it just makes sense to legalize team orders we see this in almost all team sports
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
I just felt so sorry for Massa, but putting that aside. F1 needs to decide whether it’s a team sport or a driver sport. It seem to be either of these whenever it best suits, but it can’t be both. Until that is fixed then we will always be having arguments about things like this.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:34 pm
My suggestion would be that after qualifying the have the option of submitting a request to the stewards stating that under x circumstances we would swap driver positions due to x reason. It would have to be signed off by the stewards to allow it. They don’t even need to state the name of a driver if it is driven by circumstance.
Lets take yesterday’s race. Ferrari could submit the request by saying that Alonso was in contention for the WDC. As mathmatically Massa is also in contention, the the stewards could decline it.
However, if they said the if leading driver is slower than the driver behind, and the driver behind has another driver catching them with a realistic possibility of both cars been overtaken then the faster car could be let through. That could be a legitimate reason. However, neither driver can be disadvantaged at that point ie one is in fuel saving mode and the other not.
As I say that would be an example.
The scenarios would need to be run past the drivers and both sign an agreement to it, then signed off by Charlie. They would then have to notify Charlie during the race that the situation has arisen, criteria met and are they clear to give team orders. If they are, then obviously they may need to provide random scrutineering checks after the race to confirm that the criteria has been met.
If a team has submitted a request, then it would be made known to the public that a request has been submitted. Not the reason why though. It would be up to the public to guess the reason. That would keep the betting fans happier.
If for example in China 2008 under these rules, and Ferrari had opted out, it would have been a clear breach of the rules, say (as an example) the penalty would be a drive through for both drivers and a 50k fine for the team.
They were just 2 obvious examples.
So team makes a request.
Signed off by Charlie.
Team name made public, but not the reason.
Situation does arise.
Team makes request as criteria has been met.
Charlie agrees.
Switch is done.
Criteria data is submitted to the stewards (if it is required depending on reason for request being submitted in the first place).
Then if a switch has taken place, it is made public the reason why after the race.
Sorry about such a long post.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:35 pm
James, my issue with this order was that I still think it is far too early in the season.
Alonso has lost points to outside influences yes, but that’s a function of the racing that F1 produces. It happens season after season, its something he and the team have to deal with and fight back in an appropriate manner.
Massa still has a chance in this season. No single driver has dominated. I think the top drivers, Lewis, Jenson, Vettel and Alonso now all have 2 wins each with Webber on 3.
F1 is unpredictable. We might think it’s safe to go on form and judge via that but form changes. There is no certainty that either one of these drivers will continue to show good.
This race could have been Massa’s much needed turn around. This could have been the race which saw a floodgate of points open for Massa. We know from 2008 he is capable of fighting at the front, this year things havent favoured him and his head’s been down…. Alonso might have been quicker all weekend, but Alonso was behind when it mattered, and therefore it was his job to make it work and he didnt. In my opinion Massa could have controlled Alonso to the end. Instead Ferrari have now destroyed any chance of Massa getting back his confidence in himself and the team. A year after his accident this was a heartless move from Ferrari. They have ruined a man who has given them so much as a driver and I hope he leaves at the end of season for another team who will welcome his service and dedication.
Just a little disclaimer. Had Massa been mathmatically out of the hunt, or close to it, then this move could be justified. I suspect this year team orders will happen again but only when the driver in question is out of the title hunt. With so many points left Ferrari seem to think they can tell the future, I just hope they can tell me the lottery numbers
! And I hope of course that Alonso suffers from no mechanical issues to suddenly drop him in the standings behind Massa, but as Murray so greatly says, “Anything can happen in formula one, and it usually does.”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:37 pm
There is no irony in this involving Alonso. There is no coincidence. It is no coincidence he was heavily involved in 2007 either.
Also, Ferrari have clearly lied on a massive scale. That is what McLaren got hammered for in 2007 and also in Australia last year.
A $100k fine for the breach of a rule and for lying is unacceptable, the WMSC has to act.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:38 pm
What sickens the people most is that Formula 1 is a pinnacle of the motorsport. Winning a GP should be something extraordinary. Ferrari makes it look like it’s worth nothing. Giving wins to whoever they want to and whenever they want to. It’s hard to see Alonsos smiling face on the top step of the podium, when we all know he would not won that GP or maybe he would. The most sad part is that we never know, who really was the fastest as the race ended at lap 49.
Let’s say we allow team orders, then we would have Massa giving his wins away from race 1 and RedBull drivers fighting with each other till the end. Now that’s not fair, isn’t it?
Team orders should be allowed when 1 of the drivers has lost mathematically a chance to become a champion.
Talking about the penalty. Team orders are not allowed and Ferrari broke the rules. It was hidden message but still a clear team order. Nobody isn’t going to say: “Massa this is team order, move over!”. So Ferrari need to be punished. Taking away constructor points for current race, that’s 43 points. That’s going to hurt them and they think twice when doing the same again. I think it’s fair.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:38 pm
No team orders until the last six races.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:38 pm
Great, reasonable post James,
The outcry is definitely disproportionate to the situation. Ferrari broke the rule, but they did not manipulate the race itself as some suggest. They manipulated their own results and nobody else’s as neither Vettel nor McLarens were able to actually overtake them, no matter which Ferrari driver was 1st and which 2nd.
When it comes to this particular case I would suggest taking the points from Ferrari (WCC), but leaving the drivers points. Ferrari definitely broke the rule, but when it comes to the drivers: theoretically Massa had a chance of winning the race – if he had built a big gap between himself and Alonso then FA would not have caught him and I don’t think the team would in such a case make Massa slow down deliberetly in order to be caught up by Alonso and let him through. They did it because Alonso has a bigger chance of winning the WDC and because he was already so close. Had Massa kept his advantage, there would be no case. Therefore, I would leave the drivers results the way they are as Massa could have won but he didn’t manage to keep Alonso at a distance, leading to the team order. When it comes to acusations that it’s all Alonso’s fault, I would really give that a break. No matter how much the driver is complaining and asking the team to be let through, it’s still the team’s decision in the end. I have no idea if Alonso was really insisting on using the team order, but I know that even if he had, the team did not have to listen to him.
As far as the team orders go – I feel the ban is empty and they definitely should do something about it. Ferrari did it very blatantly, but if it’s not “he is faster” then we have “you have to save fuel”, one way or another – it’s still team order and the viewers can see it. There are smart people working for the teams and no matter how much they would try to ban team orders, people will always find a way to break the rule if they want to. However allowing it at every stage makes also no sense as we want to see some real fights + it’s unfair and not good for the sport if one of the drivers gets privileged treatment from the start of the season, no matter how good he is. So I would suggest to enable the teams to use team orders once one of the drivers has no (mathematical) chance of winning the championship. That way it would be applied for every team at a different stage of the championship depending on the points of each of the drivers. If the order is used then I personally, as a viewer would prefer it to be clear. People hate to be fooled, so it’s better to say “let him pass for the championship” that “he’s faster”, then we all know what’s going on (but only when the team is allowed to do it already). When it comes to the teams where both of the drivers have no chance of winning, it should be banned for them as there’s no point in using the team order if no one is fighting for anything.
No matter how hard I try, I don’t know how to make sure that the teams would not use team orders at the early stages of the championship. I don’t think there’s any chance of granting that unfortunatelly.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:39 pm
My head knows it’s a team game and that it makes sense from a championship view and all the other arguments, but that doesn’t stop me feeling disheartened when this happens. You can’t help but feel you’re being tricked and the race has been fixed, even though you know it hasn’t.
I’d propose a modified version of what you suggested James. Rather than say you can use team orders only in the last third of the season, I’d say you can’t use them in the last third of the race. If you haven’t made a decision by then or your drivers aren’t close enough, then tough. It wouldn’t be a perfect solution, but it might seperate the orders from the result and let some different track action take place in between.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:39 pm
F1 is not just a team sport, it’s both a team sport and an individual sport, so the team should not be allowed to compromise the driver’s championship bid. Some examples of good teamwork:
- In Brazil 2007, Massa raced shotgun for Raikkonen, despite clearly having the pace to win his home GP. By sacrificing his win he maximised Raikkonen’s (Ferrari’s) chances of winning the WDC, which Kimi duly did.
- In Canada 2008 BMW put Heidfeld and Kubica on different fuel strategies at the end of the race. This gave them the chance to race each other but avoided wheel-to-wheel combat. In order for Kubica’s strategy to work Heidfeld needed to let him through, from then on it was each man from himself. BMW scored a 1-2.
- In Germany 2008 McLaren ordered Kovalainen to let Hamilton through. With 16 laps to go Kovalainen was languishing in 5th place and making no headway. Hamilton was out of position thanks to a safety car error and much faster. Hamilton went on to win.
In none of these cases can the losing driver claim his championship was undermined. In each of these cases the team maximised its points haul. What happened on Sunday doesn’t fit into that category, Ferrari scored no more points and Felipe was relegated to a number two role with half the season to go and 200 points up for grabs. That’s just wrong.
The ‘no team orders’ rule should stay, but it should be clarified to say that while a driver cannot be ordered to sacrifice his race for his teammate, a team can order a driver to move over when it won’t materially affect his championship bid. In the three examples above:
- Massa’s WDC was already over, no foul.
- both drivers were allowed to race albeit on different strategies (and presumably Heidfeld had first call on strategy since he was leading), no foul.
- Kovalainen was so much slower he was never going to hold Hamilton up for 16 laps, all he could do was ruin his teammate’s race, no foul.
There will always be grey areas, but I think most racing fans don’t want to see team orders of the type we saw last weekend, Massa has had to sacrifice his WDC bid well before he would have liked to.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:40 pm
Funny how loose is the memory, when convenient:
Germany GP, 2008. Heikki yields position to Lewis (from minute 2):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x67u6e_f1-german-gp-2008-high-definition_auto
The explanations from Ron Dennis:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports
His own words: “Lewis was nearly a second quicker than Heikki through the race and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past.”
The situation sounds familiar, doesn’t it? But the english media didn’t make a scandal of it. Guess why…
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rodrigo Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 7:36 am
because FA was only about .2 or .3 faster at race pace not nearly a second faster? because FM was *forced* to give his well deserved win to FA? because it was not 1-2 swap and Hamilton went on to challenge the leaders for a *deserved* racing win?
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Can Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:50 am
Oh, rite: team orders are OK when you are 1 second faster than your teammate (and, therefore, should be much more easier to overtake him on the track). The logic of it is *beautiful*.
Also, Heikki yielded his position *voluntarily*. Hilarious.
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Jack Holt Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Letting Hamilton through didn’t change Kovalainen’s race, he continued to trundle home slowly to 5th, but it did maximise the team’s points as it allowed Hamilton to race to victory: why then is it so hilarious that Kovalainen volunteered to let Hamilton through???
Ferrari stole Massa’s win from him at the weekend, before he was ready to concede that he was out of the running for this year’s championship. The two are hardly comparable.
July 26th, 2010 @ 3:40 pm
Coultard and other ‘insiders’ have made a big deal of F1 being a ‘team sport’.If this is the case and everyone wants it to remain as such, and to also allow/accept team orders – the only way for it to work is to cancel the ‘Driver Championship’.
If team orders are the reality, the Drivers Championship is not reflective and therefore should go. Leave only the Constructors Championship. Therefore team X won the Y grand prix. DRIVERS GET NO POINTS.
That way teams get shuffle as much as they like .
Mind you, I’m not sure I’d watch, see, I want to watch a RACE!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:40 pm
The media likes to forget that almost every single race has team orders.
How many times haven’t we heard: “OK boys, just bring the cars home now. No more racing.? Or something to that effect, especially when the Red Bulls or Maclarens have a comfortable 1-2 going (this year at least).
Those are team orders. Every single team does it, even for lower positions. They always have and always will.
This rule’s been a total farce since it was introduced and it needs to go now.
With Max Mosely no longer in charge, it’s situations like these where the FIA can show that they’ll be changing things for the better.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:40 pm
You only have to look at bicycling for the answer. If a team can’t make decisions or issue orders to it’s drivers, then it’s no longer a team. Is the FIA saying we have 24 teams now, not 12?
The team orders “ban” is one of the dumbest rules the FIA has come up with. Let the drivers race, but on the other hand the team should always come first when necessary.
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Zobra Wambleska Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
And why is that? If the teams must come first then why do we even have a WDC?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:40 pm
The rule should just be scrapped. Its clear with both Ferrari and Red Bull that there will always be team orders one way or another and so the teams should be allowed the transparency to do it clearly, without bringing the sport into disrepute in the process.
Infact, the FIA should follow the British governments example of the great repeal bill and go through all of the F1 rules and strip out some of the excessive controls.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:41 pm
Maybe the FIA could define an agreed situation where team orders can be used. For example where a driver is more than 2 race wins (50 points) ahead of his teammate or in the last 2 races of the season.
This would have to work both ways, so if Alonso is 2 wins clear in the championship and Massa needs a win to get second place, then this should also be allowed.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:41 pm
The rules are clear as they stand. And they should be enforced justly if Ferrari are found by the Council to have contravened them. Having the championship decided in a de facto court is no better than having a team deciding it through orders.
With respect to the future. I would rescind the rule and replace it with one carefully tailored to the circumstances. There is a tension here. On the one hand the fans have an expectation they will be watching racing unless they are told otherwise. But teams are big business that need maximise their investment. The conundrum is how to reconcile this tension if at all.
No solution is perfect. But in future teams should be free to nominate a ‘lead driver’ whom they can favour over the other driver through the use of team orders etc. This status should be a matter of public record and could be made before the mid point of the season. In the absence of a declaration by a team that one of its drivers has lead status both should be considered equal and free to race at all times.
Such a rule would allow the teams to maximise the chance of winning the driver’s championship, which is what no doubt motivated Ferrari yesterday. It would also provide the fans with the prior knowledge that within teams wheel-to-wheel racing had yielded to a long game in the interests of the team.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:42 pm
Teams will find more subtle ways of instituting team orders, so it’s probably best to start allowing – and embracing – them. Look at the TDF, that’s all about team orders and supporting your team-mate. If the #2 driver does his best to (fairly) slow down the #1 driver from another team, then that in itself is a skill and an interest for viewers, so maybe it’s not a bad thing.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:42 pm
I was sickened yesterday by what Ferrari did, but I supported them in 2002, what’s the difference? the rules plain and simple.
The team orders rule is a joke, name another Team sport where the players aren’t given instructions to follow by the management? For that matter name another Team sport where the big prize is given to an individual?
I prefered F1 with team orders but I could live with a compromise along the lines of “the race outcome can only be effected by team orders when the losing driver has no mathematical chance of winning the drivers championship”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:42 pm
The question is: how bad Ferrari has handled the situation during the race and after.
If, for istance, Massa has made a deliberate mistake at the hairpin and gone too deep and Alonso passe him, the wider audience won’t have crucified Ferrari for that because it was a plausable mistake, Massa locked up there a couple of times already.
Feathering the throttle after the hairpin and let Alonso passed the way Massa has done, it was too in your face and I believe Massa wanted to make a point.
Eddie Jordan has commented that Massa has ben a very good team player, weel I don’t think so at all.
He has created all this media frenzy letting Alonso pass where he did.
Moreover I think Ferrari should get a grip and use a more coded language on the radio, most of the other teams have several different setting and coded words.
The right punishment would be to restore Massa first and Alonso second, banned Domenicali from the pit lane until the and of the season and give Alonso and Massa a 5 place penalty in the next GP.
Why ?
Ferrari had the upper hand in this GP, Domenicali should have comunicate with Massa about letting Alonso pased and not Smedley, the Drivers shouldn’t have listened to the pit wall while requested to exchange positions.
For argument sake.
If Massa did not let Alonso pass, Massa would have been a hero, Ferrari the villan and Domenicali would have lost his job.
By the way, I am a Ferrari fan !!!!
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Lilla My Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I agree with what you wrote about Massa. It’s true he’s been loyal to the team for many years and it might not seem nice to strip him off his victory, but no matter which driver you support it’s quite clear who’s the better one in Ferrari. It might not be the case e.g. in Red Bull, but when it comes to Ferrari, everyone sees that it’s Alonso who can win the WDC, so the team order might be somehow justified, though I (especially as a Ferrari fan) still feel bad about it.
Anyway, Massa didn’t show loyalty on Sunday IMHO. If they tell you to let the other driver through you either try to prove them wrong and show them that you are also capable of winning by driving faster and escaping your team mate and then doing the same in next races or you decide to listen to them. If you choose the 2nd option you should carry it through, i.e. you should make it look realistic. Letting Alonso pass so blatantly and then actually confirming by your behaviour during the press conference that it was team order is not loyal. You simply have to decide on which side you are – you either listen to the team and stick to it no matter what or decide not to obey the order.
Some people say that FA was pathetic when he was insisting it wasn’t a team order. I don’t think he was. It was the only thing he could have done. Yes – he gained from the team order so it was easier for him, but if the team decides to deny everything (no matter how pointless that may seem), the driver has to follow the team’s policy. So people now call FA pathetic, but if he had admitted to have used the team order people would have called him disloyal. But then again – for some people everything FA does is wrong.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:42 pm
Reverse the finishing positions so that Massa wins.
If Alonso is such a good driver how come he couldn’t pass Massa without any interfering from the pit wall.
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mcr Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
if Hamilton is such a good driver, how come he couldn’t pass Kovalainen at Hockenheim in 2008, without any interfering from the pit wall.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:43 pm
Another thought: make sure that teams do not benefit one way or another from a driver winning the WDC. That is to say, make the WCC “THE CHAMPIONSHIP” and all else a sideshow – that way, the team won’t care which of their drivers wins.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:43 pm
James once more you are the best. I back you all the way. All your recommendations are right on the money. I agree with Eddie Irvine that it is sad that Smedley and Massa had overblown it to make a point and in doing so had let the team down. Massa has put a ding in his permanence in the team. Right now Alonso is the only chance Ferrari has to challenge the Driver’s Championship. Ade’s proposal is also a good one. F1 is a team sport also.
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Zobra Wambleska Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:02 am
If it’s just a team sport, why do you care which driver wins?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
I am glad to read a well balanced, objective piece on this issue – they’ve been pretty hard to come by today. There is no doubt that the media are making this a far bigger issue than it really is.
What I find quite interesting is that the majority opinion within F1 circles seems to be ‘they broke the rules but the rule is stupid’ which differs from the majority public view that ‘they broke the rules, we want to see everyone racing all the time’.
From the polls I’ve seen on various forums (including this site) it seems to be something like 75%/25% siding with the majority public view. I wonder how that split compares to the balance of die hard vs casual fans that watch races. I wonder if part of the outcry is people not quite understand how this sport really works.
My opinion is that the rule is stupid. It cannot be policed in any accurate way and rarely will any contravention be backed up by evidence. You also raise the point in your article about ‘degrees’ of common sense. In principle I agree, but you cannot have good rules with degrees of interpretation. It’s been said on this issue already, but how can you objectively say that it’s ok for team mates to swap places in the last few races but not earlier in the championship? I can’t think of any other sport which has a rule enforced in such a way!
Furthermore, was the plan that caused Red Bull’s incident in Turkey that much different from what we saw yesterday? Red Bull had told Mark to turn his engine down but not Vettel. Is handicapping a drivers engine really any better than just asking him to move aside? The reaction from the Red Bull pit wall and Mr Marko told us all we need to know about what they were trying to achieve that day. At least Ferrari still got their 1-2!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:46 pm
My suggestion: eliminate radio communication between the driver and the pit wall. Instead, limit all communication to FIA-approved standardized messages (e.g. “pit next lap”) that are transmitted via a display in steering wheel.
The benefits would be two-fold: it would make it increasingly difficult for the team to issue team orders via a “coded” message, and the driver would have less detailed input from his race engineer throughout the race, making his job more difficult, which would create more interesting races.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
This seems a popular view
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PaulL Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Problem is, I think the radio messages over the air add nicely to the broadcast. You get to know the personalities just that bit more.
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Meeklo Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
How about one-way radio communication Driver to Pits ie; “I’m comming in”, “need new tires” so that we still get to hear something on TV. And that combined with no PitBoard or DigitalDashboard messages so that Teams can’t relay any messages. Leave everything completely to the Driver.
Now that would be interesting!
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hesus Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
limiting communication is pointless – the teams will find a way to communicate.
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Craig Chamberlain Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:04 pm
You could still get coded messages. A certain combination of standard messages = coded message.
I’d rather we had open communications and just accept that team orders will happen regardless.
I don’t think we should get too hung up on the odd occasion when a team decides to swap their drivers. Surely it is up to the other teams to make it impossible by getting into the fight and getting between them.
If Vettel had stayed ahead of Alonso or let Alonso go and kept Massa behind then this situation would never have arisen. The fact is that Vettel was all alone due to Webber’s qualy problems and couldn’t fight both Ferraris. It is not really all that common for two teammates to be together on the track and in the “wrong” order like they were on Sunday.
Let’s not overreact by banning radio comms just to stop the 2% scenario which crops up now and again.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:48 pm
To be fair, Massa didn’t “move over” in 2007. He was asked to box three laps earlier than his fuel levels required. Raikkonen had to put in a series of fast laps to jump him in the pits. In 2008, Raikkonen did “move over”, but he appears to have done it based on a pact with Massa and based on expectations from the team but with no instruction _during the race_.
Subtle differences, but I can understand how they are all the same in the big picture.
It looks like every rule breach these days is elevated into a whole “we should discuss and change the rules” argument (see Safety Car episode). Look at other sports, they seem to get along without all this navel gazing about rules.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:49 pm
one thing we need to understand is that ferrari find themselves in a tough situation from championships stand point due to incidents in last few consecutive races… desperate times call for desperate measures and i think ferrari is justified to keep themselves in the run…
this season would not be interesting if ferrari has lost its chance for championship.. simple as that
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Craig Chamberlain Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Absolutely right! The racing is just starting to get interesting with Ferrari and I suspect soon McLaren taking the fight to Red Bull. It would have been a real shame for true F1 fans if Ferrari were to start to concentrate on 2011 at this stage.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:49 pm
The FIA should treat this matter very seriously. I would like to see a full transcript of events that took place between Ferrari (drivers and representative) and the stewards.
Everyone knows that team orders have happened in more or less obvious ways – even after 2002 – but surely most people can agree that what happened was not palatable. There is a distinction of sorts in this instance that is difficult to put one’s finger on. Perhaps, in part, it was the fact that some people would have liked Massa to win for the first time since his terrible accident last year. But what is clear is that Massa had a good chance of winning and if Alonso was really faster then fans were robbed of what was potentially the only real great battle on-track between the front-runners. Alas, the game was up prematurely. Whatever the reason for fans’ unhappiness, one thing is for sure, something didn’t feel right about the events that took place.
Now, even though some say other teams have imposed team orders on one of their drivers in the past, there is another distinction here and one that I think is the most important. That is, Domenicali told the media that Massa made an error during the race by making a mistake with gear shifting. In addition, the drivers could not give a straight answer in the post-race press conference. But Domenacali in particular owes fans an apology for suggesting in no uncertain terms to the media that Alonso’s pass was an entirely legitimite, run-of-the-mill racing move. Ferrari have underestimated the intelligence of the fans – they have been dishonest. There are many people in F1 who are exceptionally intelligent but the same can be said for many fans too. So instead of telling the truth about team orders being executed by Massa, Ferrari came out with an extremely weak and incredible defence in a somewhat shameless, arrogant and blatant manner.
Remembering what happened in ther ‘liegate’ scandal with Lewis Hamilton in Australia, I think Ferrari too have a similar case to answer. I have not seen transcripts of their meeting with the stewards but were did Ferrari attempt to deceive the stewards too? Certainly they did if they told the stewards the untruths that they uttered to the fans. I recall that Hamilton and Mclaren scored no points in Australia for their misdemeanours.
It is very difficult to say what must change, if anything. We need to stop and ask ourselves, does there need to be a dramatic overhaul of the rule(s) governing team orders? I think not. I think fans are more angry at Ferrari’s handling of the matter above all else (as discussed above). But I suggest that stewards be given flexibility and allowed to exercise reason as they have by punishing Ferrari.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:50 pm
This one is easily fixed. No team orders until mathematically only one driver on the team can win the championship.
Holding station for a 1-2 is not team orders just changes in position. Then fans would not have a problem with alterations to the result. The problem here is Massa could still win the championship
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Craig Chamberlain Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
The problem is that every point can be crucial as we saw in 2007 and 2008 so we could easily find by the end of the season that this incident has given Alonso the championship by a single point. Similarly he might end up 100 points short or have 50 points in hand by the end of the season. We won’t know until November 14th.
What about Renault? Kubica has a tangible (but unlikely) chance of winning the WDC whereas Petrov has almost zero chance. Would that make it okay to swap them around if Petrov was leading Kubica unexpectedly? Logically you would say yes but why is that any different to the Alonso/Massa situation.
It is clear that Alonso has a better chance of the WDC than Massa but even for Alonso to win 2010 will be very hard work given the points deficit and competition from Red Bull and McLaren.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:50 pm
Dear James,
Thanks for the great insight. It just annoys me and probably a lot more fans that Alonso himself, get away with it. Remember the controversy late 2008, Alonso won and could keep his win despite cheating. Poor Nelsinho. Fernando is a great driver but it seems that he always gets what he wants. I loose interest in him because he is so demanding to his team and teammates. Every Alonso teammate needs to play second fiddle. Alonso is not and will never be the King of F1. Ferrari signed him because he is a better team player than Raikkonen… If he really was, we would have seen a different race yesterday and he should have racet and given the fans what they all hoped for which was a great move from Alonso on Massa.. Shame on you Ferrari!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:51 pm
Well said, James. I propose that the only way to avoid team orders is to have single car/driver teams. This would also necessitate a pit box for each driver and eliminate the rediculous site of cars queing (and losing time) during safety car periods. Most importantly the FIA needs to make their decisions on merit and not, as has been so common in the Ecclestone-Mosley era, knee-jerk reaction to a over-hyped media only looking to stir up the fecal matter.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Interesting idea!
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Lilla My Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 8:33 am
That sounds interesting and innovative (something definitely different from all the other ideas) and would reduce the costs I guess, though I personally don’t know how that rule could be introduced (especially that some of the teams opt even for three cars). Getting simply rid of half of these great drivers wouldn’t be good for the sport I guess. Imagine saying good bye to Button (or Hamilton), Webber (or Vettel), Massa (or Alonso). That makes no sense.
One solution would be to keep two drivers and one car for each team, so the drivers would switch and each would race every second GP (as it’s more interesting to have more drivers fighting for the championship. E.g. take McLaren – if they were to keep only one driver then e.g. JB would have to leave for another team. He would probably find another place but not necessarily in one of the top teams as they already have top drivers and would have to decide themselves which one to keep, thus JB would be unable to fight for the championship, which would be harming for him and the fans). I think that would be the best solution in a suituation with one car for each team.
Then they could introduce new teams so that the number of drivers would remain more or less unchanged, but that doesn’t seem easy as we can see this year that it’s quite impossible for a team to join and be competitive.
Then you could also ask the teams to run two separate teams, one for each driver (in order to maintain the current number of drivers), but that would totally increase the costs, while everybody try to reduce them and would not work.
O.k.these were just my first, absolutely theoretical, thoughts; I have no idea if right or wrong.
p.s. I somehow got addicted to this site. It seems an island of reason especially after Germany, when so many other sites tend to overblow the whole team orders thing and want to crucify Ferrari and their drivers. Though I must confess it’s so time-consuming, especially that I would like to read all comments. Hopefully I won’t loose my job because of spending too much time here
.
Anyway, thanks a lot James for not being bias and giving great insight!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:51 pm
I say, re-introduce team orders so long as a method is in place to ensure that a repeat of 2002 doesn’t happen. Maybe once a driver is mathematically eliminated from the WDC then orders can be issued. Maybe if there is a 20% difference in a team’s Driver’s points?
I think we all want to see the better man win, but I think we also understand that the team is king. Perhaps the teams need to do a better job of promoting themselves above their drivers?
On a side note, I wish they would alter the qualifying rules to allow drivers to choose their grid position based on qualifying performance. This would have allowed Alonso to start on the clean side if he wanted to. Of course this decision would need to be made directly after qualifying, maybe even upon weigh-in so that the teams can prepare.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:53 pm
BTW
I hate being thought of as so dumb as to believe Ferrari’s lies in all those interviews.
Insulting.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:53 pm
Blatant team orders of the like we saw in Hockenheim on Sunday and between Schumacher and Barrichello in 2002 attract the fury of fans who are denied a ‘race’ between team-mates (and let’s face it, some of the best wheel to wheel racing this season has been between both McLaren and Red Bull team-mates) and howls of rage over what is seen as ‘fixing’ of the result. And who can blame them – who enjoys a ‘result’ which is manipulated – and whichever way you dice it, thats just what it was. I know I don’t; and Hockenheim was the low point of the 2010 season so far for me – as far as I’m concerned, the drivers championship is potentially prejudiced by the points difference between 1st and 2nd.
For me, personally, team orders stink – and I think the drivers agree; you just need to look at their faces directly afterward to see that. Imagine the pressure that Massa has been under to perform this year after his accident 12mths ago and how he must have felt out in the lead at Hockenheim when he was told to move over? Junking the team orders rule just because it might be difficult to enforce won’t make any difference to how drivers feel or how the fans see F1.
James points out that all a team needs to do to disguise team orders is to fabricate a delay through a deliberately slow pit-stop; On that basis, I can see the argument “what is the point of a rule that simply cannot be enforced”?
The only answer I can come up with is ‘SPORTSMANSHIP’ – if teams want to become expert at the murky art of disguising team orders then let them – I suspect that the fans and sponsors will make their views known to the teams detriment. To give this some teeth I believe that the FIA need to consider a ‘balance of probability’ of evidence rather than absolute proof – the farce that was the Ferrari ‘stance’ at Hockenheim was probably more depressing than the act itself; the impression I got was “……prove it” despite the overwhelming evidence.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:54 pm
Strip off all the points by Ferrari in that race. A suspended penalty for team disqualification for the rest of the season.
The biggest punishment is at their image. Alonso is no MS, he is not as welcome, and the teams will gradually feel the heat
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:55 pm
My suggestions are as follows. They could be thought of as over-complicating the matter though.
Maybe the rule could be that team orders are allowed when one driver no longer has a mathematical chance of winning the championship (this would cover the ‘07 and ‘08 cases I think, from memory)
Realistically however, while the above is simple it’s not realistic as you could say that Bruno Senna still has a mathematical chance.
So, my second suggestion is to define a reasonable chance. So I propose that when one driver leads another driver by greater than 20% of the available points left to score. i.e. with 8 races left there are 200 points available so if a driver has a 40 point lead over his team-mate he becomes eligable for preferential treatment. The actually percentage may need to be fiddled with a bit.
Also, to prevent another Austria ‘02, ordes shouldn’t be allowed till the 2nd half of the season.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:55 pm
Team Orders are a reality in F1 and that cannot be ignored. If a team deems it necessary for it they can do it in so many ways that can easily go undetectable. So there is no point in policing this.
Ironically if this was for P2 rather than the race win, nobody would have bothered too much about it.
FIA’s approach should be to penalize the team for harming the name of the sport. What Ferrari did so blatantly surely cost F1 its credibility.
The radio conversations only hurt Ferrari’s reputation and they will have to answer their fans at some point.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:56 pm
Ferrari appear to do exactrly what they want. maybe the rule book should be transalated into Italian. When they say Teams should not test.. Ferrari have a Filming day. When they say no team Orders.. Ferrari say, it applies only to other people.. When a Front running Ferrari makes a pigs ear of passing back markers,, ferrari want back markers banned, When the Safety Car rules do not fall in their favour, they start questioning the existence of safety cars.. all that within 1 year.
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CH1UNDA Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Actually Lionel, all that within a couple of races! Just Hilarious!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:56 pm
Team orders could be authorized if one of the drivers on the same team is out of the points race. It’s as simple as that !
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:57 pm
Maybe if there was a cap on how much a driver can make from the team and team sponsors – very low set cap, as in just above the average working class guy’s wages – and they were instead being paid handsome reward money by FOM based on their finishing position and performance in-face (lap times, number of laps led, number of overtakes made etc), then their interest would be not to do what team bosses demand from them but rather what’s best for themselves, to race as hard as they can every moment of the race.
The teams would then still have the constructors championship (with the money and prestige that comes from it) to battle for.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:58 pm
James, if I may, I believe you as well as the teams have forgotten about the viewers.
It doesn’t matter whether or not team orders are justified regarding team results – F1 is entirely based on fan and viewer support.
If people prefer to watch a race that is not being tampered with – and who wouldn’t – the FIA and the teams better deliver .
Or at least keep up appearances .
Defending what has happened in this race is a slap in the face of every fan.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:58 pm
Team orders (i.e let your team mate past) should only be allowed when it is mathematically impossible for the driver to win the title without other results going their way.
i.e (in old money) If Hamilton led the championship, Vettel was 9 points behind, Webber 6 behind and there were 4 races left. Vettel can only win if Hamilton doesn’t finish 2nd in every race, where as Webber could win if he finished 1st in every race regardless of what Hamilton does. In this instance team orders can be invoked (in webbers favour).
Or another suggestion is that a team can invoke team orders when they like, but if they do they have to agree to share the drivers championship, So if Alonso wins the chamionship goes to Alonso – Massa (much in the old days when they shared cars)
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:58 pm
Ferrari appear to do exactrly what they want. maybe the rule book should be translated into Italian. When they say Teams should not test.. Ferrari have a Filming day. When they say no team Orders.. Ferrari say, it applies only to other people.. When a Front running Ferrari makes a pigs ear of passing back markers,, ferrari want back markers banned, When the Safety Car rules do not fall in their favour, they start questioning the existence of safety cars.. all that within 1 year.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
Team orders should be banned until one of the drivers of the same team does not have mathematical chances to get the championship. That happened in a natural way in Ferrari in ‘07 and ‘08 and both drivers were recognised for their professionalism and team effort. What happened last Sunday was a sad charade.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
Much was said about how Massa was, before the race, 31 points points behind Alonso.
It sounds like a big gap, but that’s only equivalent to something like 12 points in old money (1x win + 1x 7th place = 31 points with the current system). Hardly impossible considering how many races are left.
Obviously, though, that situation would have meant Alonso would have been further adrift in the championship (only by 7 points, mind!). But with so many races to go, Ferrari should have let it play out.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
I strong believe the leadership of both Ferrari and Redbull need to get Public Relations training from Mclaren!They have both made a mockery of the sport with some of the decisions they have made.
Millions of people around the world follow the sport, I personally live in Nairobi,Kenya. Taking this into consideration Ferrari should have looked for a better way of making the switch, for example at the Pit-stop. Incidents like this make Formula a hard-sell as a sport.
After Schumacher’s retirement F1 was injected with Life again and I personal haven’t missed a race since 2007. The FIA must punish Ferrari severely for reversing the gains the sport has made.
As for Fernando Alonso I have always been an admirer of his exceptional talent but it is now being overshadowed by his inability to control his emotions. He is quickly becoming the biggest villain in the history of F1. It would be a great tragedy if all the negative aspects of his career clouded all his achievements. He needs to start playing the PR game to save his legacy as one of the sports greatest.
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mcr Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
The image we get of Alonso is the one the media and the participants in the blogs want us to have. If they insist on having a villain they will have it.
No matter what Alonso does, there will be always someone who will find him at fault.
Because he is obviously someone very powerful, who controls his team to the point of robbing documents of Maclaren without anyone at Maclaren having any idea of this, he can decide that a team mate crash for him and the team goes and obeys him….. Man, wouldn’t the other drivers wish to have the same influence that he has.
I think everybody here should be more independent minded and stop repeating the same kind of things over and over again.You know by repeating them they just don’t become true.
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Zobra Wambleska Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:34 am
The truth isn’t determined by a show of hands. Alonso’s actions and attitude have made his reputation. He alone has created this particular truth.
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Jamie Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 10:41 am
Don’t get me wrong, Alonso is a great driver and at the end of the day he is human but he needs to control what people see and hear. That’s my opinion, to really go down as a Legend you have to work with the public’s perception. If that means changing your character so be it.
Case in point, Nelson Piquet won 3 world Titles and Aryton Senna also won 3 World Titles but Senna is the driver nearly every F1 fan ranks as the all time greatest!Is it real?Maybe, but a big part of his Aura is perception.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
As you wrote, fans accepting or disapproving of a specific team order depends on the circumstance- even with the ban in place. I can’t imagine that anyone, Massa included would object to similar orders if Alonso alone had the mathematical chance of winning the championship when this occurred. Any future rule allowing team orders should have that criterion- that team orders will only occur when one of the competing drivers in a team no longer has a mathematical chance of winning the championship. That, in my view, would avoid teams being in a position to make judgments that inevitably make them vulnerable to charges of favoritism by the unfavored driver and his fans.
As for this incident, Ferrari can claim (rightly or wrongly) that Alonso has the better chance of winning the championship. Most fans disagree with that and quite rightly so.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
James, I thought I was in the minority in this and kept quiet!
I completely agree with what you said regarding common sense. Of course many other teams would do the same chasing for the WC. It was exactly what DC was saying on the BBC1 coverage – the rules should be looked.
I think decisions need to be looked at individually though, the case we have here is that Alonso is ahead in the championship by some distance of Massa, whilst at the same time, just as far behind the leading pack. Ferrari has the right idea as they need to get behind one driver now – why?
We are well into the season now – past halfway. Whilst the competition is fierce from 4 other drivers taking up points.
To sum this up briefly, my key points would be:
It is a team sport – no question.
Team orders should be allowed.
There should not be a designated number 1 driver at the start of the season – perhaps this can only be done after the seasons half-way point.
The driver should still ultimately take the final decision to move over for the good of the team.
PS. I do feel for Massa in this situation. How gutting must it be, to drive in F1 for Ferrari, qualifying well and winning the race, yet you need to move over. Especially after the year he has had.
Formula One can be so engrossing without the actual racing!
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
It’s a soap opera!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:00 pm
Another great insights James. I can’t help thinking that the reason the “code” was so obvious was that maybe Ferrari didn’t have an agreement beforehand regarding letting Alonso pass. If they have they could have made it very discreet and have said something like “Go to mix 10! confirm?” and Massa would have understood it. But maybe they just want to convey a message to Massa that they think he will figure out and wanted Felipe to make a decision and he said Ok (even though he didn’t like it). Just my opinion.
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Garoid McG Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
This is what I think happened, for the reason you gave. It had to be very obvious, and yet not be a literal instruction. If there really was no prior agreement with Massa, then Ferrari have not technically issued a team order. They have just supplied information which Massa and the rest of the world have interpreted as an instruction, when it actually technically wasn’t. This is a rock solid defence. If you allege team orders, what was the order? When was it issued?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:00 pm
I have no problem with Ferrari getting a 1-2 finish yesterday, they ran the best two cars and deserved the points. However, I was not happy about the way in which they decided who should win. If Alonso was faster then he should have passed Massa on the track, or at least shown that he was capable of doing so. I found myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Eddie Jordan that the decision robbed fans of a chance to see some racing.
I can’t see how F1 can have a ban on team orders while there is a team aspect to the sport (which I like). But at the moment there is a ban and that means that all the teams should adhere to it. If the rules get changed then they are changed for everyone. If Ferrari are not punished, or not punished enough, it will just open the door for the other teams to start ignoring the rules too.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:00 pm
I agree that were team orders legal then there was a good case for Ferrari using them in this race. Obviously the problem is that they aren’t legal and so the FIA can’t allow Ferrari to benefit from them.
It is subjective when they are justified so difficult to codify. I like the two-thirds of the season rule, I’ve been thinking that myself. Of course we aren’t at the two-thirds point yet so Ferrari couldn’t have used them in this race.
Everything should be transparent and should be clear before a race, so there are no surprises. Team orders should be explicit, not hidden by odd pit stop calls or unlikely driver errors.
Team orders also apply to individual races, not just to championships. In Hockenheim 2008 Hamilton and Kovalainen were on different strategies and Hamilton’s strategy was affected by a Safety car. Hamilton came out of the pits behind Kovalainen, Kovalainen let him past and Hamilton went on to win the race.
I think the following are legitimate reasons for team orders:
1. To prevent one team-mate compromising another’s strategy, when they are on different strategies.
2. When it significantly improves the chances for the team in the race, e.g. only one driver has a chance of winning.
3. Asking team-mates to hold station after 75% of the race, as used to be common when we had refuelling.
4. After two thirds of the season has been completed and one driver has been nominated before the race as the team’s main championship contender.
I think it’s particularly important that it is transparent, let’s have the fuss before the race not afterwards.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:00 pm
To clarify, in 2007, Massa did not let Raikkonen through, Raikonnen in fact got through during the second round of pit stops.
The problem this weekend was that it was just so blatant. I think the current rule is fine. If Alonso had been quick enough, he would have got past, or he could have got close enough to Massa so that Massa could make a mistake….
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:01 pm
FIA should penalize ferrari in the way of seconds added post race. In such a manner felipe became winner, alonso second and vettel third. will be the right thing to do this time.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:03 pm
The main problem is how Ferrari and Alonso (yes, he too with his comments/reactions that he was the deserving winner. Well, guess what, you were not!) handled the whole situation.
You can’t tell your driver that he can win this race if he keeps it up and then when he does ask him 20 laps later to move aside.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:04 pm
Two points:
1) Has the FIA got it in for Alonso and Ferrari?
Like you said James, this is not the first instance of team orders, so why the Draconian measures?
2) Can you belive the hypcrosy from red bull and mclaren? No team orders at mcmerc? Someone forgot about, ironically, Germany 2008. Or Spa 2005. Perhaps Whitmarsh should tell Coulthard about mcmerc’s no team orders policy.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Ferrari felt that way this weekend.
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Tim Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Spot on you are…how quick they forgot when the can drive the bus over their opponent… themselves.
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Frank Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
Spot on!
I do not see everybody here calling cheaters to McLaren for Germany 2008, the same place different actors.
If there is a future penalty in points to Ferrari drivers then by the same token we should remove the title to Hamilton for 2008. I know it sounds like a non-sense because it is a non-sense.
I wish they leave Ferrari along and remove/amend the rule.
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Anthony Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 4:56 am
So… if I kill you, it is not the first time somebody gets killed.. no fuzz about it, right?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:06 pm
‘leaving aside the rule specifically banning team orders for a second’
maybe some of the teams who are just off Red Bull’s pace should hire a circuit and do a bit of testing. Of course it’s against the rules but some people think it’s a silly rule … so thats okay isn’t it?
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kayjay Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Good one, I like it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
That’s a good point James about Brazil ‘07 and China ‘08 when Ferrari had to use team orders for the Championship. Which they had to do! What I don’t understand is that both of those occasions were both clear breaches of that same written rule, ‘Team orders are forbidden.’ But they went totally unpunished, that rule doesn’t have any conditions to it, but after the German GP they dish out a $100,000 fine? Let’s have some consistency…
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:10 pm
If team orders are in fact allowed, what’s to stop a team from hiring a clear second driver just to drive around become a moving chicane to the teams rivals?
If the rule is modified to allow team-orders in the second half of the season, he would use the first half of the season to earn a reputation for defending aggressively. In the latter half, when team orders are allowed, he would qualify just behind his team mate and drive just slow enough to hold the rest of the grid back and protect his teammate from aggression from behind.
If you qualify the existing rule so that team orders are allowed only if there’s no mathematical chance left for the driver in question, that too can be orchestrated if they can find a driver willing to play this game (and as the story with Piquet suggests, there seem to be drivers who are willing to do a lot).
Agreed, there is an existing grey area around the rule as it stands today, but if team orders are allowed in any form, the grey area can only become much much larger. It’s kind of an all-or-nothing rule, unfortunately.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:10 pm
It’s a bit ironic all of this when everyone knows that team orders are being given in every race or at least every race where the title contender or in the case of teams at the lower end, the driver that can make a mark are benefited.
When Button was told to save fuel a few weeks ago, what did that exactly mean? Ok… I know it wasn’t an order to let anyone pass but it was an order for Button not to hastle Lewis. It is a team sport at the end of the day and you’ve got your pros and your cons in whether they should be allowed to happen or not.
Obviously for the racing enthusiast it’s better not to have team orders beacuse obviously we want to see everyone racing eachother and we want a spectacle. But then again there’s alot of money involved in this sport apart from the prestige… What was Massa to gain from finishing in front of Alonso in a 1, 2 for Ferrari? Obviously fro Massa its the euforic situation of what he lives for which is winning grand prixs… But for the team, they couldn’t give a hell about Massa’s measly 7 point gain on Fernando whereas Fernando Winning adds pressure on the front pack apart from throwing the spaniard right back into the title hunt for sure because Ferrari are competitive again and look real hot.
About the press goin loopy on this one… It’s obvious that it’s because it’s Fernando Alonso on the benefiting side because due to many reasons, some where Fernando’s at fault in the past and others where there were others at fault, well some or much of the press don’t like the spaniard to much.
It’s all relative to which side of the fence you’re sitting on whether or not it upset you or not, with what happened in Hockenheim. But for Ferrari it’s a different story and they know they’ve got a very good chance of going for this year’s title and they’ve already made many cock-ups this season and they weren’t about to let this one go by without getting the right result. Only, that they cocked-up in the way in which they done it! hahaha…
Alonso was fastest all weekend and he was faster than Massa yesterday and Ferrari know full well that Alonso is faster than Massa in general.
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"for sure" Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Alonso was so fast that he coudn’t win without it being gift wrapped!
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Toni Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:49 am
Does the fastest driver always win the race? NO!
If you’re incharge of a team that has the potential to win a championship and you have a driver who’s consistantly faster than his team mate, what do you do? Think of all the money riding on your actions!
That second question is in the spirit of a team leader.
I’m not saying that it’s a nice thing to see! As a racing fan, I only wish that things could just be more brutal and let the drivers go all out in search of a victory. I think we’d all like that but things don’t work that way and they never have done.
There are team orders flying around all the time in Formula 1. Only that they’re not done in such a sutpid manner as they were on sunday. Also add to that Massa’s childlike actions in making it bloody obvious to all that he’d lad a team order and that he’s an inferior driver to his team mate. If I was Massa I’d feel the same way because he had to suffer the same thing driving with Schumi and Kimi! Nothing’s changed… only the name of his team mate has changed and if he doesn’t like it then he can move to another team, maybe HRT. He’ll be number one there for sure and he’ll have another brazilian as a team mate under the guise of a Senna.
Nothing’s been gift wrapped! This is FORMULA 1… The question you should make it to your self mate… What are your motives behind your quiestioning…? What was that famous remark by William Shakespeare? There’s your answer!
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"for sure" Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
I was hoping to find somewhere in your reply an explanation as to why Alonso could not win on merit.
Toni Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
‘for sure’…
You can search for whatever you like but I’m the only one who can tell you what I mean or what I want to say!
Fernando was all over Massa but seeing as they drive identical cars, it’s always dificult to overtake. It’s difficult to ovetake anyhow in F1 and that makes ot even harder. Alonso had already tried one manouver when Massa almost took Fernando out and that’s where I feel that Ferrari knew thet had to take action because if Ferraro miss out on the driver’s title by 7 points, the ‘Tiffossi’ would be asking questions at the end of the season as to why these things weren’t sorted at the time.
In 2008 there was another blatant team order, only this time benefiting Lewis Hamilton where Heikki Kovalainen was told to let Lewis pass… Where’s the difference? It’s been happening this season aswell as it does in every GP. The only difference is that Ferrari made a hash of the situation as we all saw.
Michael Schumacher in an interview published today has said the same thing. It’s a team sport and whoever can’t understand that small part in their contracts where it says “you will comply with all team requests” then they shoud stick to racing a car in their own time wherever it’s safe to do so.
Senna…
I don’t know whether or not Fernando is the best overtaker or not. He’s definatley done some great manouvers on many big names in the past. If we look back to Imola in 2005, we’ll see that for 14 laps, Michael Schumacher in a far superior car couldn’t overtake Fernando… It was close and it was great to watch, but there wasn’t an overtaking move. With the way the top cars are so closely matched and the fact that same team cars shouldn’t have any difference in their output, then unless there’s an error by the other driver, there won’t be a skillful overtaking move by any of the drivers in the present Formula 1 season.
In brief… Ferrari did what they had to do, only that they where terrible in the way that they did it. The only over the top remarks coming out into the public eye are all coming from one source and all I can say to that is “Sour Grapes” comes to mind!
senna Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 11:29 am
he is not the best overtaker in the grid. But he did a good job this weekend for a change. We should all be glad ferrari is back in the hunt, eventhough i think the chances of winning the chamoionship are long gone. Too many mistakes made by alonso and the team. This title was there for the taking, and they didn’t get the job done.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
1.Punish the yeilding driver with a 1 race ban because he’s the one with the ultimate control and not the team.So Barrichello would get a 1 race ban for allowing Schumacher past.Massa gets a 1 race ban for doing the same with Alonso.
Racing drivers are there to race.
This rule would stop teams orders.
2.Allow team orders only for the 1st half of the season.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
Surely team orders should only be allowed when one of the team members mathematically has no chance of winning the championship?
That is why it is, to be frank, blindingly obvious that it is OK for Raikonnen to overtake Massa in Brazil 07, but it’s not OK for Schuey to overtake Barrichello in Austria 02 or Alonso to overtake Massa in Germany 10.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
Maybe the rule should be team orders are allowed only when one driver in the team is no longer able to win the championship, i.e. at the point where it’s mathematically impossible for him to win. Who’s to say Massa won’t have some good luck in the next few races and end winning the title himself?
Alternatively, teams could be made to declare at the start of the season whether drivers are equals or if one driver is subordinate to the other. In the first case, team orders never allowed, in the second the number 2 driver can be ordered to support the team leader.
Or we could just have one car per team.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:12 pm
No team orders until the last third or 5 races sounds like a workable proposal. What I objected to most was that Ferrari treated the fans/viewers like idiots with their blatant lies, it makes a mockery of the sport and the rules.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
Team orders should continue to be banned.You cant leave it up to the driver to take the decision, as no driver would like to give the position away ,only he would be pressured by the team to do so.If they cant fight it out on the track and think its “ridiculous” they shouldnt be in racing in the first place.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
Simple solution: Do not let the leading driver on track in the race be passed by the lagging driver unless the leading driver has no mathematical chance of finishing higher in and at the end of the championship than the lagging driver.
This rule would make sense for both the ‘07 and ‘08 passes involving Kimi and Filipe as on both occasions the driver who was passed had no mathematical chance of finishing higher in the championship standings than the passer.
This rule would work for any higher of the two possible driver positions in the standings, not just the first position in the championship.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:14 pm
I think we should remember James, that Alonso’s and Ferrari’s Championship hopes were really on the ropes (to use a boxing analogy) prior to this weekend. So I can totally understand why Ferrari took the decision that they did, it was in the best interests of the team to give the leading driver in the Championship maximum points to haul him back into contention.
However it didn’t make for easy viewing because we tuned into see a race. And I as I’m sure everyone else was, were enjoying a great race where Alonso and Massa were fighting for the lead and then just for Massa to surrender that lead to the car he had been fighting off at the hairpin shortly before just left me feeling cheated and empty.
So yes I can totally understand why it had to happen, it is after all a team sport, but that’s not what the world wide TV audience tunes into see! So you see there’s conflicting interests there between what the fans want and what the teams want. And you just can’t keep everyone happy, unfortunately.
I think you’re spot on, there shouldn’t be any team orders until the final third of the season. That’s the best compromise for both the fans interests and the teams interests.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:14 pm
ANY ACTION that interfears with proper racing and final result should not be entertained at all
VIEWERS worldwide want to see racing and this negates the purpose of formula one being the pinacle of sport if teams interfear with action on the tract to suit their purposes.
THE FIA must clearly draw the line and protect these drivers from any team machinations that force them to tow the team line and “CHEAT”
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:14 pm
What your analysis misses, as do all the other I have read, is that the long term future of F1 depends crucually on whather television viewers watch the sport or not. This incident and the 2002 incident saps the credibility if the sport in the eyes of TV viewers. If they think in simplistic terms the races are fixed, then F1 becomes no better than wrestling, and TV audiences will decline accordingly. That will enforce budget cuts on the teams (via lost sponsorship) far more harshly than anything Max Mosley proposed.
This is not about hardcore race fans, nor is it about the real politique of team racing. It about the sports image to the ordinary majority who want to see the best go motor racing.
Whilst I understand what you are saying, and that there are degrees in this, I ask you to see that the vast majority of the TV audience that counts (the ones the sponsors want to advertise to) only hear the word “fixed” without any degree, and they dont like it. Worse they just might stop watching it.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:15 pm
Its cheating. Its a disgrace. It should not be allowed. Under any circumstances. It should not be excused. Every race should be fought for, every championship point should be fought for, especially with regards to the overall title, not gifted to a driver by his team-mate.
I know people out there will say, oh its been going on for ever, and its part of Formula 1 dont be so naive, but I dont give a damn, I would like it to be fought between drivers, for every single point. Either that, or scrap the drivers championships and make it an all-out team sport. With overall point and standing for the team being the important factor. But the current situation is silly.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Would you feel the same way if McLaren or Red Bull had done it?
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Chris Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:08 am
I asked myself the same question James and the truthful answer is no! I would understand why peole were as upset as I am now buti would defend mclaren on the same basis as the ferrari fans are now!! God how I love this sport
scrap the rule that is the only way forward!
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Galapago555 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Let me congratulate you for this REAL proof of sportmanship!
Henry Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 8:40 am
I really hope so. possibly angrier. But, I am aware that it is part of the sport, and i can see that with the dual championship they are always going to want to issue team orders. But that doesn’t mean it has to continue. It would be nice, in my eyes, to see them outlawed and the teams stick to the letter of the law. Of course the teams wont like that, but maybe the fans will…or maybe just me(!).
I do agree that the current regulations should be changed because the current situation is silly – either they should be illegal and the law respected, or not illegal. My position is clearly in favor of the former.
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monktonnik Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:46 am
I would honestly feel exactly the same. This has nothing to do with partisan allegiances to a team, driver or even the fact that I am a native English speaker. I felt very disappointed that in Turkey when I heard Red Bull and Mclaren talk about fuel saving. I am glad that the drivers involved ignored this and went racing. It gave us two of the most exciting bits of racing this year.
Arguably the best man won on the day, but in totally the wrong way. I have no love for Massa and probably prefer Alonso for his fighting spirit etc. But what was done was illegal and robbed the fans of an on track battle. That is why this is so unpopular. I don’t think anyone would have complained if Massa had been overtaking in that period after the pit stops when his tyres weren’t actually working.
No team orders should mean exactly that. Whatever we say about the past, F1 should have moved on from this kind of thing. The fans showed their opinion in 2002 and now they are showing it again.
These moves don’t just affect the championship in a positive way for one team. They also deny victory to someone else. I am not a gambling man, but if I had bet on Massa this weekend I would be furious! In fact when you consider that if Massa hadn’t allowed Raikkonen past in Brazil 2007 Lewis would have won the championship (just!) in his first year.
Really, everyone should follow the example of the Brawn team last year. Their drivers fought up until the championship was decided and I think that added to the tension. All of a sudden Button’s WDC title doesn’t look so undeserved.
At the end of the day I think that F1 really needs to ask itself who it’s customers really are. We saw a decline in the interest for the sport when Ferrari/Schumacher were doing this kind of thing. Is it worth risking that again?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:15 pm
I was appalled by the switch mainly as it would have been nice to have seen Massa win the race after what he has been through and it is also nice to see the “petulant child” Alonso beaten by his team mate occasionally. Sadly I think this is the last we will see of Massa in the same race as the front runners – his confidence will be gone!!
As for the suggestion, I suggest they ban team orders for the first 75% of the season and then fully allow them for the remaining 25% when it will be clearer which way the title is likely to go. The teams will then have a choice on how to proceed with their 2 drivers. All the radio communications are available anyway so it will all be out in the open then and as it is part of the agreed rules the fans will not feel cheated.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:16 pm
The whole thing was a farce.I watch the racing to see the drivers win,not giving up position to others.Feel very sorry for Massa and the Spanish driver was so childish in the BBC interveiw afterwards it made me cringe.Ferrari get banned for a few races,that will teach them to grow up.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:16 pm
James, agree that the rationale behind the decision might make sense (and probably other teams would have done, or have done the same)and that rules need to be reviewed. I think a lot of the overreaction by media and fans has to do with:
- Very poor execution by Ferrari after making the decision. As you said this could have been managed quietly in the pits, instead of the way it was managed. Ferrari should have expected Massa and Smedley were not going to “digest” this easily and should have avoided creating the opportunity for them to make their point
- Alonso’s radio transmissions during the race. From my personal perspective open broadcast of radio communications are quickly becoming Alonso’s worst enemy. His “this is ridiculous” comment showed an Alonso with a sense of entitlement that clearly does not play well and that gave the impression it was mainly him from the cockpit pushing (or more like demanding) the team order. Given his history and his past outbursts against “unfairness” and “manipulation” in the sport you can see the implicit contradiction (or should I say hipocrisy) that personally annoys me the most
- Ferrari’s (and Alonso’s) ludicrous and ridiculous attempt to make us believe that it was Massa’s decision to let Alonso through. I understand they can’t just acknowledge what they did, given the whole thing will still be reviewed by FIA, but they should not insult people’s intelligence with their fairy tales
All in all Ferrari shot themselves in the foot. I guess Christian Horner should not feel that bad about his questioned actions this year, seeing that even an experienced and well established team like Ferrari is making dumb management mistakes.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:17 pm
I agree with Nick… I mean James!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:18 pm
(One of) The explanation(s) given by Ferrari as to why they felt it necessary to switch positions doesn’t stack up. Yes, Vettel was close, but not close enough to manage to overtake, and yes Alonso closed up, but only by 1/10th a lap when Massa wasn’t impeded by backmarkers. Yes, Massa initially struggled to get his brake balance sorted on the hard tyres but once that had been done, he was fast enough to win the race.
In one of the early transmissions that was broadcast, Rob Smedley said something like “You need to put the quick laps in now and you can win this race” – it sounded like Rob knew that the call would come unless Massa could prove he was “fast enough”.
As for punishment? I’d advocate a removal of constructors points for both THIS race and the next. Hit them where it hurts – the FOM money awarded by constructor position / points.
I’d also like to see Massa credited with the win, but I’m unsure if that will happen.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:19 pm
Just to end with all this hypocritical comments from the British part of the media, may I recommend all of you to read the following words:
“Heikki was troubled by oversteer in his first stint, which we attempted to correct at his first pit stop, but he still struggled a little in his next stint. That being the case, he wasn’t able to match Lewis’s pace today. But it’s the mark of both his professionalism and his sportsmanship that, aware of his situation relative to Lewis’s, he made it relatively straightforward for Lewis to pass him… and once again he showed a winner’s grit and determination. It’s a joy to have two drivers who are not only super-competitive but also super-cooperative.”
It was Ron Dennis, after German GP’08. And I have just copied and pasted it from McLaren’s site:
http://mclaren.com.cn/f1season/2008/germany/sunday.php
Please, can anybody explain me what is the difference between this (I imagine) “competitive, fair and square, wonderful, cooperative” behaviour and the “blatantly cheaters from Ferrari” yesterday.
Or maybe the difference is that McLaren is a British team with a British star in those days(now 2), and Ferrari is a f***ing Latin team with st*pid Latind drivers??
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Irish con Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
The British public is without the most biased bunch of jealous people you could possibly imagine. It’s the same with there football team and the arrogance. They think they can do what they like but scream blue murder when it’s happens to them. James I must admit you have changed my mind on you today after Reading your single comments. A big thankyou for being fair and trying to talk sense to your readers
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monktonnik Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:07 am
I am sorry, I think you are wrong. I think that in general the British F1 fans are relatively non-partisan. For example, you don’t get people dressing up as Fernando Alonso’s family and taunting him as you do for Lewis in Spain, and you don’t get people throwing objects at drivers (again Lewis) after the race as you did in Brazil last year. Every country is going to support it’s own drivers and teams, this is natural, but certainly not to the point of xenophobia in the case of Britain. I can remember sitting in the stands at the British GP this year and hearing cheers for Vettel when he was passing cars.
Here is a list of drivers that I have supported:
Irvine (Easily the most colourful of all the drivers, and I was so disappointed when he didn’t win in 99)
Schumacher (from when he joined Ferrari, because he showed tremendous strength of character and determination)
Button 2007 onwards (in fact if JB hadn’t had a drive for 2009 I was going to support Vettel)
As far as the English football team goes, make no mistake: the English fans blamed the players mostly for their performance in the World Cup. They were disgraceful and no amount of disallowed goals could have hidden that.
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monktonnik Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Just to be absolutely clear:
I am not saying that all Brazillian or Spanish fans are partisan and guilty of those worst examples of behaviour.
Sorry if anyone thought that and was offended.
Roger Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 8:43 am
From what I recall of the race you cite, Hamilton was not just faster than Heikki, he was seriously faster, both before the “pass” and afterwards.
At no point on Sunday was Alonso significantly faster than Massa – on clear laps Alonso was perhaps a 1/10th faster at most.
I admit to not liking Alonso because of his history of throwing the toys out of the pram when he doesn’t get his way – see Monza, time @ McLaren, time @ Renault. But I have a lot of respect for Massa in the way that he handled 2008.
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Henry Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:17 am
I think what is actually the case is that the British F1 fans have a very short term memory, especially when it suits them. I am as guilty of that as anyone – shocked and appalled with the sport when the renault race fixing came out, when Lewis lied to the stewards, etc etc. But everyone loves the sport, and so despite being on the brink of giving up one week, in two weeks time by the next GP everyone will just glaze over and enjoy the show. I dont think it is particularly arrogant, jealous or biased. Those are excessively strong words; its simply a case of forgetting the bad bits about the sport as quickly as possible, because there is an apathy amongst the fans that cheating, or whatever you choose to call it, always has, and always will permeate the sport.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:19 pm
This is only my second post, James; but I felt compelled to write it!
Something serious must be done about this incident; and quickly. Otherwise, the message is that it’s ok to switch drivers around like this – at any stage in the championship. Contrary to what some might believe, this is actually a very rare phenomenon now. For it’s rare that a driver would relinquish a position, let alone a win, to his team-mate when it’s still mathematically possible for said driver to win the championship. This is because drivers generally want to win! It takes a ‘special’ sort of driver to relinquish a position in this way. A driver who does so cements himself in the eyes of the faithful as a subservient, second-rate driver: a DC, a Rubens – a Massa.
Massa has officially capitulated to Alonso in full view of the world. If this goes unpunished, he will similarly be expected to get out of Alonso’s way at every subsequent race; and, for this, he only has himself to blame. It would be disastrous for the spectacle and integrity of F1. Think of the fans. WE make this sport. Not the drivers. Not the teams. Not the FIA. If we don’t watch, then F1, as we know it, dies. And the fans won’t watch if F1 becomes the motorsport equivalent of WWE. Many people already doubt (rightly) whether F1 can be called a ‘sport’. What are they going to think if it’s declared ok for a driver to give a position, let alone a win, to his teammate? When Football teams deliberately field an underperforming side, such as 11 reserves, to rest their key players for a big match in the near future, as Manchester United famously did, then it’s investigated and declared illegal – despite its being in the best interests of the ‘team’.
Something has to be done by FIA. Otherwise you can bet your mortgage that Massa will do this whenever he can for Alonso; and that Red Bull and others, though probably not McLaren, will no doubt follow suit; again, at ANY opportunity…
The Solution:
This all has a simple solution! I.e., Team orders, in every team, should be banned, completely, until it’s mathematically impossible for one of the team’s drivers to win the WDC. That’s clear, fair, and obvious. Any alleged use of team orders prior to this condition being satisfied would then be investigated; and evidence would be considered on a legal basis: either beyond all reasonable doubt or on the balance of probabilities. It would be very difficult, therefore, to get away with using team orders, even if it were done ‘professionally’; and teams would err very much on the side of caution as they wouldn’t want the stewards or the FIA to come to a ‘judgement’, with their masses of evidence, on whether team orders were used.
The Penalty:
Now, on both of these legal standards, Ferrari is guilty. They also mislead the stewards by persisting with their poorly concealed lie, which, as Hamilton discovered at Australia 09, is a serious offence. So Ferrari must be punished. For the lie, Hamilton was excluded from the results; so, being fair, Ferrari’s two cars are similarly excluded from the result of the 2010 German GP: all points are lost; the other drivers move up and gain points accordingly. For the team orders, I would give Ferrari a two race suspended ban: if there’s any sniff of any foul play over the rest of the season, then, and only then, would their ban kick-in. This would clear up the mess, fairly, and send all the right signals out to the unimpressed world.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
Thanks for coming in with that
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Nilesh Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 3:04 am
Hey I said the same thing in my comment above!
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Nick Hipkin Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:08 pm
Very good point that most seemed to have missed, Ferrari’s lying is comparable with Mclaren’s from Melbourne 09 so the punishment should be consistent
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Freespeech Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
A point well made and one which I agree with.
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Frank Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
By the same token as I said earlier on, should we do the same for the Germany 2008 GP? or should we used double standards?
It does not surprised anymore how the fans have very “selected” memory.
In my view, team orders should be on the open unless we have 1 team = 1 driver. Anything else it is unworkable.
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Alan Goodfellow Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
I agree 100%. Your suggestion of banning team orders until one driver cannot mathematically win the title is a fantastic idea!
A tweak to the current rule to bring this in seems like an excellent solution to the issue!
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drplix Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 9:21 am
A very well argued position. I agree wholeheartedly. As James so clearly articulates, to ban team orders would be counter productive and would likely reduce the excitement of the season climax.
Making team orders permissable once a driver is mathematically out of contention clearly is in the best interests of the team and, ultimately the championship run-off.
I also agree about Alistairs proposed punishment. It was not the infringement of the rule – a bad, ambiguous rule is arguably there to be broken. It was the cover-up and lying that deserves sanction – just as for Lewis and Mclaren last year.
I think what most riles people is inconsistency. We demand fair play with rules we can interpret using common sense.
James please do all you can to pass on Alistair’s excellent views.
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Tim Reply:
July 28th, 2010 at 12:38 am
I fully agree.
For me the cover-up was far worse than the crime!
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:20 pm
Is it fair that one team is favouring only the driver closer to the championship leader even though the other driver still has a mathematical chance of winning the championship–whereas the other teams have both drivers in contention and cannot do the same.
In Brazil 2007, Raikkonen had 2-3 laps of more fuel than Massa and was close to Massa all along and even when he exited the pitlane, Massa wasn’t far behind. Raikkonen had already annihilated Alonso at Silverstone in a similar way by staying out for about 6-7 laps more laps during his third sting when Alonso was about 5 seconds ahead of him; so there is every chance that Raikkonen won the Brazil race on merit even if it was pre-agreed by the team that Massa would let him pass.
Raikkonen did not have that luxury in Brazil as he had to somewhat work for it. He also pulled away considerably from Massa during the final stint.
In Suzuka 2006 Schumacher overtook Massa on the start and finish straight on the second lap and fairly ahead of Alonso before the engine faliure which was explained as Massa having a tyre problem.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:20 pm
First of all, Massa was holding up Alonso, allowing Vettel to close the gap. Felipe also slammed the door on Fernando’s passing attempt a couple times and nearly wrecked both of them. What Smedley said over the air was true, but because of his closeness to Massa, he wasn’t as subtle as he could have been and the apology was an even bigger mistake from a team perspective. Then, the way Felipe allowed the pass was done so blatantly that all deniability was gone.
Like it or not, team orders in F1 happen all the time. As you pointed out, James, if it is done subtly everyone lets it go with a wink and a nod.
I don’t think the rule needs to be changed, but like any rule there are ways to get around it without creating a fuss. I agree that the easiest way to get it done was a slightly long pit stop for Massa. Smedley and Massa are too close pals for them to pull this off quietly and Felipe is desperate to prove that he is not a number two driver.
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johnpierre rivera Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
great point… if only everyone could look at this in a more professional/racing way.
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Henry Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:24 am
Vettel was not challenging them. He was not even close enough to see the switch happen, that is a very weak excuse.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:21 pm
James,
To some extent I agree – the media reaction is overblown and I see it unfathomable that Ferrari will be thrown out of the championship.
However there are some ethical issues behind that which need to be sorted. For example, and I’m not suggesting this happened yesterday, what if team members bet on one of their cars to win (or even come in a particular position) and then manipulated the race in order for that to happen. Also, what about the paying fans at the circuit; who paid to see a race between supposedly equal drivers reasonably early on in the season and were then deprived of it by actions outside of the driver’s control?
In addition for the stewards to have made the punishment of a fine it would be reasonable to assume that they believed Ferrari’s story to be inaccurate, and as such at least some of the story to have misled the stewards. As such you could make the link with the Hamilton affair at Australia last year and it’s possible the WMSC would do that.
As such I would expect Ferrari to receive a suspended sentence at the WMSC; possibly a one race ban suspended for one year. As it’s not as black and white as Hamilton’s case though, I would not expect them to lose any points.
At the same time I think a change in the rule is justified; particularly as fans can draw a distinction between early and late races as the championship draws to a close. Your suggestion is a good idea; the other one I would suggest is that team orders (or the artificial/intentional manipulation of race positions) are banned until either one of the affected drivers is mathematically unable to win the championship. Your way would be simpler though and at least then is easy for fans to understand.
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
I would be arguing this way whoever the team was, McLaren, Red Bull etc. This has nothing to do with Ferrari, more a point about team orders
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Chris Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 11:57 pm
If you are a gambler and follow F1 with enough insight to put large amounts of money down on a particular driver, you should also know enough about the way F1 works that team orders are a fact.
If a gambler doesn’t factor this into his pitch, then the fool deserves to be parted with his money.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:21 pm
Punishment for this one :
- Reverse the driver points so Felipe gets 25 and Fernando 18
- dock Ferrari all the team points
- two million dollars fine.
The FIA brought in this rule – it’s up to them to police it. That’s what they’re for. The fact that the stewards have handed out the maximum fine should be a good guide.
For the future :
- Team orders only allowed in last 3 races, and then only if second driver has no mathematical chance of winning WC (or so close as makes no difference – detail easy to work out).
It’s no use sll this stuff about realism and money. The fans pay for a spectacle, and they’re entitled to have one.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:21 pm
The public only feel frustrated when they believe they are watching a battle for position when in fact they are not. The people that follow F1 on sites such as this one know the score and would not have been surprised at the move….! certainly wasn’t
A rule saying no team orders will always give rise to this kind of situation where the “instruction” is cloaked in coded messages. It is a bad rule.
If a situation arises where 1 driver is clearly ahead in the championship then a team order allowing him to benefit should be permitted…however this should be declared at the start of the race.
Press Briefing from Scuderia Ferrari reads
“given the repective position of our drivers in the championship and the unfortunate loss of points suffered by our leading driver in the last 2 races we wish to announce that should driver Massa be in a postion in the german GP where he is leading driver Alonso, driver Massa has been instructed to yield this position. Driver Massa has agreed to this to assist the team in its goal of achieving its aims in the championships and will best suit the needs of the team etc etc etc”
If we know whats going on it will not come as a surprise and the average viewer will not feel cheated from a battle for position which was never going to be in the first place.
Allow team orders, but let us know before not during or after the race !
With regards to the hearing the FIA should say that they are guilty of breaching a rule but thank them for highlighting what a poorly written rule it was, bank the cheque, thank them for their time and go for lunch.
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mcr Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 10:58 am
That way the fans will know and so would the other teams. Why should other teams know how X team is going to proceed in a race?
Besides,did any one really have any doubts that the ferrari drivers were going to swap positions?
Team orders should be allowed and no, neither we nor the teams should be clearly made aware of it.
Why is Horner so pissed off? Why does he mind it so much whether Alonso is in first position and not Massa? Vettel was still going to be in third position. Because aAlonso is now nearer their drivers in points. Because he fears Alonso in a Ferrari and not Massa.
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Silverstone79 Reply:
July 27th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
It wouldn’t matter if the teams knew, as they would be expecting it anyway….it is the public that need to be informed and more importantly the casual viewer. It would allow the commentary team to explain what was going to happen should things develop on the track in a certain way. You only feel cheated if you do not know the rules of the game.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:24 pm
The team orders ban is unenforceable. Team orders need not be written or given by radio, so the evidence of a violation might not be unambiguous. I don’t like the scenarios that emerge in the absence of a ban, but as long as there are teams, there will be orders, explicit or implicit. Any good ideas out there?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:25 pm
It just a matter of Sour Grapes. It seems to me the media its getting any action on the track that they have to focus on Off Track Debates. So they told Massa to move over. Massa is not in this title and everybody knows that and people who thinks he is, is living in a cloudy dream land.
The only Person able to challenge for drivers championship is Alonso and they would have hurt their own chances if Massa had taken point of him.
A team does it in front of you or the back of you, Its the same thing.Ferrari runs a Team not a individual race they will want to see the ferrari driver champion and people are trying to say why ferrari why why make this guy the champion because this is the only guy who has a shot at it.
And Secondly Horner already has had his bad taste when Vettel and Mark collided. Poor Lad they lost soo many points because they were stupid. this couldve ended in the same thing but it didnt.
Its all Media Rubbish and As james said its over reaction.
GROW UP people This is real life.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:28 pm
Amen Mr. James Allen. Well said!
Anyone who is calling this race manipulated and wants Ferrari banned is simply a casual fan and does not know the first thing about F1. Its been apart of F1 since the beginning and will continue to be a part of F1. The only reason the FIA introduced a rule to ban swapping places is because they did not want to make it so obvious and ruffle peoples feathers. However it continued to happen since 2002. In recent times Kovey let Hamilton go at this very race 2 years ago, Massa let Kimi go in Brazil and Kimi returned the favour a year later… and now Massa let Alonso go. Is it the fact that it was so obvious that is making people mad or that it benefitted Alonso? Even Christian Horner’s comments just go to prove that either he is incompetent as a team director or he is two-faced. First he lets his drivers race and they crash and he blames 1 driver and then he takes the wing off one car and gives it to the favoured son. So you telling me if Vettel needed to get infront of Mark to win the championship he would let them race. Gimme a break. People who are mad that this went down should get their head out of the sand.
P.S. The only reason Ferrari is denying it happened is to meet the face of the rules but we all know every top team does it and will do it if they need the one driver to get more points for the driver’s championship. Whitmarsh said last week that he isn’t ready to make Lewis the number 1 driver yet… Enough said.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:29 pm
James – Would you feel the same way if you had £100 on Massa to win yesterday? Imagine if you were due for a 16/1 rake and then Ferrari decided that they wanted Alonso to win instead! If you want to favour 1 driver ONLY ENTER ONE DRIVER IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!
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James Allen Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
I don’t think people who bet on F1 should be under any illusions that things like this happen. It’s part of the risk. I’ve no sympathy for those who bet, then bleat
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Alanis Morissette Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Indeed. These days you can always lay off your bet in play on betfair anyway. If you had done that halfway through the race, you could have got a very decent sum anyway.
Always lay off bets in F1 once you’ve achieved a decent profit. I’ve learnt this lesson to my cost before through mechanical failures and accidents. And in a case like this, it was always going to happen. Who in their right mind believed that Massa would take the flag with Alonso behind him?
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JimmiC Reply:
July 26th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
You pays your money, you takes your chance. Was anyone seriously putting money on Barrichello in the mid-noughties, or Irvine in 1998?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:29 pm
I think team orders should only be permitted when one driver is mathematically out of contention for the WDC.
In my opinion the notion that Massa played a TEAM game makes no sense – Ferrari still received the same number of Constructor’s points and their actions only helped Alonso. The result helped Alonso, not the team – in fact, it’s probably had the opposite effect on the team! If FA wants to be the Driver’s Champion then go out there and drive for it!
Points have been made about Fernando being quicker all weekend and how that should be taken into account! Why?! Like Ferrari were quoted after qualifying – the points are only dished out on Sunday afternoon. If you can’t deliver when it counts then that’s the driver’s problem.
I’ve been an F1 fan for over 20 years but yesterday’s actions made me question what is becoming of our “sport”.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:30 pm
Well, i would like to see it like this, even tho its nearly impossible:
Allow teamorder
Allow refueling
Allow slowing down your rivals/blocking them(however you also need to “fix” overtaking)
However what absolutely dont want soo is a fixed number 1/number 2 lineup from the start of the season. And thats where it gets nearly impossible.
Another idea would be to allow teamorder, holding off your rivals and stuff for the last x number/percent of races.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:30 pm
Take the emphasis (and temptation) away from the team, and make it an offence for any driver to deliberately allow his teammate to gain an advantage, unless he has declared he is not competing for the World Driver Championship, or unless there is a clear and measurable problem with the car.
The penalty for breaking the rule would have to be automatic loss of points for both drivers – and by extension the team.
Explanation:
Half way through the season driver A is doing OK but is slightly out of touch, and although driver B can mathematically still win, he (in conjunction with the team?) takes the decision to withdraw from the WDC.
Driver B can still score points for the team and still pick up trophies, but because he’s dropped out from the WDC, his points don’t count towards the title, and he’s free to play a supporting role for driver A, without any ambiguity or deception.
Policing the rule shouldn’t be any more difficult than policing the regulations regarding deliberate blocking or crowding, so any attempts to circumvent it would have to be done extremely well – i.e. not so blatantly obvious that it brings the sport into disrepute.
Obviously not all driver would agree to this so early in the season, and in most cases you’d never get them to agree until it was mathematically impossible for them to win, but at least everyone would know where they stood.
It might cause problems for drivers now again, but in most cases people want to see evenly matched teammates fighting it out in equal equipment.
Finally, if the points were reversed, would Alonso have given way for Massa? Would Ferrari have even dared ask?
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:31 pm
Ferrari should have their driver and constructor points taken away. Also a big fine should be given to the team for tryng to mislead the stewards.
The blatant lying in public is what got most people’s backs up. If they didn’t think they were guilty of imposing team orders then they should have been honest about what happened. Either that or made it far less obvious.
Alonso didn’t deserve to win the race just because he was faster than Massa all weekend or he was ahead in the Championship this early on. Anyone that suggests so is guilty of supreme arrogance. We may as well just hand out points for qualifying and not bother racing otherwise.
If I was Massa I’d be seriously tempted to look elsewhere for next season as his position within the team has been made clear. Renault would be glad to have a driver like Massa I’m sure.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:31 pm
Orders to over take a team mate mathematically out of the title race or holding stations late in a race to not over stress a car/engine
that has to do more races is one thing.
However how Ferrari acted yesterday insults the intelligence of the viewing fans that follow the sport.
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:32 pm
The very cynical thing many people seem to forget (and which may play very well a big role in the final verdict) is that only a few weeks ago Alonso was screaming bloody murder because he was under the belief that the race outcome was fixed. And now his team goes out there and does it for him (again one might say, although the previous time he was driving for Renault). Had he been an honest man he would have screamed bloody murder now too.
But then maybe Briatore gave Dominicale some expert advice on how to run a team when he visited them on July 21….
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July 26th, 2010 @ 4:32 pm
the mathmatical chance of winning thing is a good idea, or if teams nominate a 1 and 2 driver at the beginning of the season (maybe).
either way orders should be allowed because there’s no getting away from them as MB, DC and EJ have said many times before now.
TBH tho James i’d rather you championed the following if you wouldn’t mind
1. allow flexible front wings and stop insisting that the bottoms of the cars must be flat. that would make a huge difference to over taking and it wouldn’t be a case of push to pass which is about as artificial as it gets.
2. Bin KERS, F-ducts an