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Alonso wins German Grand Prix as Ferrari tell Massa to move over
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Alonso wins German Grand Prix as Ferrari tell Massa to move over
Posted By: James Allen  |  25 Jul 2010   |  2:41 pm GMT  |  866 comments

Team orders returned to the top of the agenda in Formula 1 today as Fernando Alonso took the win in the German Grand Prix thanks to his team mate Felipe Massa letting him through in the closing stages, despite leading the race from the start. It is a tough moment for Massa and a hard call for the team to have to make.

Although the message was coded it was unmistakeably a team order, which are banned in F1. The team will also know that Massa’s motivation will have been torpedoed by this moment.

Alonso: Has priority at Ferrari (Darren Heath)


It was Alonso’s second win of the season – the first came in Bahrain when Alonso passed his team mate at the start, fair and square. Unlike in his McLaren days, Alonso has the clout within the team to subjugate his team mate. We do not know what the drivers’ contracts say, but with Massa recently renewing and nothing like this happening earlier in the season, one wonders whether it was a condition of Massa’s renewal. He has certainly looked a bit dejected in recent times.

The 1-2 finish for Ferrari is the first since the opening race in Bahrain. The car has been on the pace since Montreal, but wasn’t able to get the results in Valencia or Silverstone, where Alonso should have been on the podium but for falling foul of the stewards. The Ferraris lapped everybody up to Kubica in 7th place.

It makes for an interesting championship situation, with the two Red Bull drivers now tied on points and now 21 points behind Hamilton, with Alonso back in the title race.

At the start, Vettel was so concerned about Alonso coming down the inside that he forgot about Felipe Massa down the outside. The Brazilian flew into the lead and Alonso tucked in behind in second place. Vettel was forced to accept third place, while Webber was passed by Hamilton for fourth place. Further back Schumacher made a great start from 11th to 8th and the two Toro Rosso cars hi5t each other Buemi losing his rear wing.

Ferrari were delighted with a 1-2 at this stage, but the wrong car was in the lead in many ways, with Massa well behind Alonso in the drivers’ championship.

The super soft tyres held up pretty well and Vettel was the first of the front runners to pit on lap 14, as the lap times were coming down impressively. Alonso and Webber pitted a lap later, with Webber rejoining in traffic and losing ground.

Massa pitted on lap 16 and rejoined ahead of Alonso, but as we have seen all season he was not as happy on the hard tyre as on the soft and he locked up consistently, but Alonso did not attack for a while.

We had another great fight between Schumacher and Kubica after the Pole’s pit stop, but he held his nerve and fought off the great champion.

Alonso soon closed up and was in a position to attack on lap 23, but Massa resisted. Alonso cam on the radio to say “This is ridiculous,” clearly feeling as he did at Indianapolis in 2007 when he followed Hamilton in the McLarens.

Button pitted late, lap 24 and he got out ahead of Mark Webber. Nico Rosberg also used the tactic of stopping a lap later and he jumped his team mate Michael Schumacher for 8th.

Massa started pulling away from Alonso and Vettel, the gap was out to 3.5 seconds by lap 28. Alonso clawed it back slowly, and by lap 35 it was down to 2 seconds, down to 1 second on lap 40. Meanwhile McLaren told Lewis Hamilton to go on a fuel saving mode in fourth place and Mark Webber was instructed to nurse the car to the finish and not challneg Button for 5th place.

On lap 50 a very reluctant sounding Rob Smedley came on the radio to tell Massa, “Fernando is faster than you,” which is code for “Let Alonso through.” He later came on and said “Sorry” to Massa, showing how hard it had been to deliver that message.

Massa obeyed and the Spaniard duly swept past to take the win. But after the race it was announced that the FIA World Motor Sport Council is to be called in to decide whether Ferrari should face further sanctions for the team orders controversy at the German Grand Prix, after the team was fined $100,000 for flouting the team orders rule. It should be remembered that the rule was brought in because of a Ferrari team order in 2002 which was very unpopular with fans.

German Grand Prix, Hockenheim, 67 Laps
1. Alonso Ferrari 1h28:38.866
2. Massa Ferrari + 4.196
3. Vettel Red Bull-Renault + 5.121
4. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes + 26.896
5. Button McLaren-Mercedes + 29.482
6. Webber Red Bull-Renault + 43.606
7. Kubica Renault + 1 lap
8. Rosberg Mercedes + 1 lap
9. Schumacher Mercedes + 1 lap
10. Petrov Renault + 1 lap
11. Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari + 1 lap
12. Barrichello Williams-Cosworth + 1 lap
13. Hulkenberg Williams-Cosworth + 1 lap
14. De la Rosa Sauber-Ferrari + 1 lap
15. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari + 1 lap
16. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes + 2 laps
17. Sutil Force India-Mercedes + 2 laps
18. Glock Virgin-Cosworth + 3 laps
19. Senna HRT-Cosworth + 4 laps

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866 Comments
  1. melonfarmer says:

    Absolute disgrace – ruined the final part (half?) of the race.

    Total votes:
    0

    1. Robert Lujan says:

      All they got was a fine! That is just terrible….

      Total votes:
      0

      1. Peter Jones says:

        A fine is better than nothing, it demonstrated that the stewards knew Ferrari broke the rules and gave them a penalty. It will be interesting now to see how the WMSC handle the situation when they meet.

        Total votes:
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      2. Theo Paphitis says:

        Peter, as you know 100k is a lot of money. But for Ferrari that’s a barely a scratch on the empire. That wasn’t a fine, that was a “pay off”.

        Total votes:
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      3. Andy W says:

        What they did was say its acceptable to fix races as long as you have the cash to pay the fine.

        The regs state quite clearly that team orders are banned, and you would have to be deaf and blind not to think that Massa was instructed to let Alonso past…

        If they want to support the relevant reg then they should have disqualified both Ferrari cars from the race. That would have sent a clear message to the teams that this kind of cheating is unacceptable. If not they should change the rules.

        Total votes:
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      4. Robert Lujan says:

        I love Domenicali’s statement about the fine and not appealing it: “In the interests of the sport we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing it….” again how blatant can you be? If it were the interest of the sport that were so important, he should have let his drivers fight it out on the track.

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      5. Peter Jones says:

        Sure $100k isn’t much compared to how much they’ll earn, but it is still a penalty for a breach of the rules, and Ferrari accepted they did wrong when they said they weren’t going to appeal the decision. Let’s wait to see what the WMSC do when they meet.

        Considering the team still got the 1-2 they were always likely to get (albeit in the wrong order), is this much different to some of their other decisions this year that have been considered lenient like the penalty Hamilton got for overtaking the safety car for example?

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      6. Mark says:

        Hardly a disgrace. Alonso was the quicker of the two and if he’d had to fight his way past it could well have ended similarly to the Red Bull fiasco when a slower drive made it difficult for his faster teammate to pass.

        Alonso patiently sat behind Massa in Australia though as here he was the faster. So why wouldn’t he get frustrated when his teammate drives defensive and holds him up. Pushing the two of them back into the reach of Vettel.

        They’re teammates working for the benefit of the team. Massa has not been on Alonso’s pace all year. He should have behaved as Raikkonen did when it was clear Massa should be let through (even though Kimi was truly the quicker driver that year).

        Didn’t hear Kimi whining afterward. And no one felt the need to look into it as Kimi didn’t make it so overt as Massa did during the race.

        Total votes:
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      7. guy says:

        Although your point is perfectly valid – massa wasn’t that far behind alonso on points given the new points system and therefore this scenario is wholly different. Remember massa also did it for kimi – but again that was at the end of the season.

        The main point is this – f1 is a sport. whatever the history of racing, team orders are now banned. the fans hate team orders. without the fans f1 is meaningless.

        Total votes:
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      8. Nick H says:

        Mark, if Alonso was faster than Massa then why didnt he overtake Massa?
        The pretence that Massa had a ‘problem’ exiting the corner was an insult to all F1 fans.

        Total votes:
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      9. Bill Johnson says:

        Right. And the team got how many more points for Alonso being in front instead of Massa?

        Zero. Zed. Naught. Null. Nada.

        So the order benefits the team how? Oh, yeah, maybe Alonso just might get near being a champion.What are the chances?

        Total votes:
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      10. Nic W says:

        Whilst I can see there was a slight possibility of them colliding if he had tried to get past at least that would have been racing. What was done was so transparent that for the first time this year I didn’t bother watching the end of the race live, thought I’d mow the lawn instead.
        How can you acuse Massa of whining when that is all Alonso ever seems to do, “I was robbed”, “they are biased”, “let me through”, “I knew nothing about Piquet” etc etc etc. He might be a fast driver but he even his teflon coat is looking very brown and tarnished.

        Total votes:
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      11. Peter Freeman says:

        And that it is against the rules makes no difference at all…

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      12. Thebe says:

        Alonso was that much faster than Massa,so should he let him thru?

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      13. Nag says:

        @Mark i dont think Massa is whining either! And Kimi already had a favour to payback Massa for letting him win the Brazilian GP so that he could take the championship… and there Massa was untouchable.. as he often is at his home GP!

        Total votes:
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      14. Baktru says:

        It would have been a whole other story if Massa had just given Alonso an easy way to overtake him somewhere on his own initiative.

        After all, with Alonso being ahead in the championship it somehow does make sense. BUT that is not what happened, Massa was clearly told to let Alonso through against his will, which is expressly forbidden by the rules and as such is cheating. Before this race I was actually rooting for the Ferrari’s to get a good result, but now… Vettel can take the championship as far as I’m concerned now.

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      15. johnpierre rivera says:

        nicely said…

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      16. Robert Lujan says:

        What I want somebody to ask is why didn’t Domenicali make the call to Massa? Why did Smedley have to do it? Won’t that really harm thier Engineer/Driver relationship? Domenicali could care less about the sport and its players so why didn’t he tell Massa to pull over? Making Smedley do it was a sign of cowardice.

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      17. Nicollers says:

        Defensive? Alonso only got near Massa twice and failed to overtake him.

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      18. Henry says:

        Hardly a disgrace?!

        Really what planet are you on? Firstly, its against the rules. secondly, F1 is meant to be a sport. Thirdly it did not benefit the team. Did they gain any extra points for the switch? ah. This kind of stupid behavior in F1 makes me sick, cheating, and it is cheating, is rife in the sport and it should not in any way be acceptable. If the WMSC does not strip Alonso of the points, I think I will give up on watching the rest of the season. Absolute disgrace.

        Total votes:
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      19. Thebe says:

        you dont know that for sure,maybe he would have been able to pass Massa with ease,thats why people race,to compete with each other,there should be overtaking on the track and not through team orders.

        Alonso once complained about F1 no longer being a sport but a business,Singapore 2008 he also claimed he was not involved in the race fixing scandal,if you look at his behaviour this weekend,Id say he knew exactly what was happening that night in Singapore.Alonso is happy at Ferrari because he obviously has the NO 1 status.

        He was faster than Massa ,yes, but not by a great margin,otherwise he would have been able to pass him with ease,and also their lap times were almost identical at some point.

        Total votes:
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      20. Lee Gilbert says:

        It’s not team orders that are wrong it was the execution of what took place that was a disgrace to the sport.

        Team orders have always been in F1. It is a team sport with the peculiarity of being so but also crowning an individual as champion. This causes contradiction and conflict.

        For me the team orders rule is wrong and needs to be looked at but the one thing I am glad about is that the Stewards acted. For them not to act would have made a mockery of the rules – the rule exists, it was a clear breach, therefore a penalty has to be applied which at this moment is a large fine. The WMSC might have a different view…

        I am sure people will have lots of selective views on the rights and wrongs of some previous examples of team orders – in my view they all need to be left to one side. They add little weight into this case as we know team orders exist and have continued to do so since the rule was created in 2002.

        The key point here is it’s not Team Orders that are wrong – it’s the blatant floundering of a rule and the embarrassing effects on the sport (and on Massa). Lets not forget the rule was brought in because of Ferrari’s actions – I love the smell of burning irony in the morning!

        In a strange way we have to congratulate the best F1 race engineer for letting the whole world know and a top F1 driver for making the move even more obvious. I will never forget the staccato way Rob Smedley said, “Ok… Fernando is faster… than…. you.” The man is a legend, baby!

        Total votes:
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      21. Dyablo says:

        Granted it looks ugly, but Man, you are blowing this out of proportion. Massa should take the blame for not playing along with the team. In fact, he made it very obvious that he slowed down to make Alonso pass. A true team player (eg: late F1 driver Francois Cevert) would have let his team mate pass with a correct fight knowing that his chances for the championship are next to nil (Hamilton had more than double Massa’s point).
        F1 like any sport is based on teamwork, and true fans should expect teammates not only to swap positions but also to delay opponents as in any competition you have someone playing offense and another playing defense, except that such positions should be decided after a drivers chance to win the championship becomes unlikely as in Massa’s situation.
        (Michael Jordan’s team mates wouldn’t put up the same face as Massa did during the press conference when Miachael takes the final shot do they?)
        Alonso on the other hand, and despite the harsh penalties the stewards have given him (as opposed to Hamilton who only was handed a shy slap on the hand 5 times this season for breaking the rules), for example is still in contention.
        It seems that people are more saddened by the fact that Alonso closed the gap to the two Brits than for Massa.
        So please enough character bashing as you all know everyone in Domenicalli’s position would have made the same call.

        Dyablo

        Total votes:
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      22. Digger says:

        You are so right !
        Ferrari always said the team is important not the single driver. The drivers have to be team players. Here I cannot understand the way Massa acts : as a team player ? definately not. I like Massa,but this time I am not on his side. Any how people would have appreciate Massa’s great performance, no doubts.
        Alonso anyhow would have tried to pass him, taking the risk of a crash, but I honestly think he finally would have passed him. And that was the dilemma of Ferrari : Massa had a terrible accident, what when a second happen to him ??? Seeing Alonso ready to try all, they finally prefer to take a safer way, that is what I think.
        An do not forget that , at the moment when many people had the opinion Massa should be replaced by another driver in the season 2010, Ferrari shows that they still believe in him and gave him a contract for 2 YEARS.
        That is also why I cannot follow MASSA’s
        action.

        Total votes:
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    2. Irish con says:

      Wonder did you guys all say the same 2 years ago when the same happened with heikki and lewis. Selective memory I think.

      Total votes:
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      1. Peter Jones says:

        Yes I did. And with Raikkonen + Massa in the same year, Schumacher + every team mate he’s ever had, even Coulthard + Hakkinen back in 98, and probably even more situations than I can remember at the moment.
        Team orders that result in drivers switching position should be penalised regardless of the team involved.

        Total votes:
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      2. senna says:

        don’t forget the rule was stablised in 2002 after the austrian gp fiasco.

        Total votes:
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      3. Luca says:

        its just as bad as the way as almost all teams get drivers to hold station – whether it be a change or an order to hold station, its just as bad!
        The sooner its understood that no matter what the rule book says there will be team orders (obvious or not). God knows how many races in recent years have been dull due to drivers being told to hold station and not to compete with their team mate… that is not racing either.

        Total votes:
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      4. Declan says:

        Nice concept – but how do you police it? Massa could have made it look less obvious and joe public wouldn’t have known.

        Total votes:
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      5. Tom Johnson says:

        Yea we did just as we did when Massa let Riakkonen through at Interlagos to steal the WDC from Hamilton – remember?

        Total votes:
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      6. rafa says:

        mate that never happened: if there was anybody that was outstripped from a WDC from that particular move it was Alonso, not Hamilton, who flunked his chances in the second corner.

        Total votes:
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      7. Ben dz says:

        Kimi ‘stole’ WDC from Hamilton? I would have thought that beaching his car in the PITLANE and then having the following red-mist moment(s) at Brazil would mean that Hamilton lost it fair and square…

        Total votes:
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      8. Sean says:

        Irish con,

        2 years ago, Lewis was clearly much faster than Heikki unlike Alonso (even though was marginally faster than Massa, but it wasn’t enough to make his overtaking move stick) who more than half the race was stuck behind Massa and was having difficulties overtaking him.

        Even if there was team orders on Mclaren’s part, it was at least done in a more better manner unlike today when Ferrari blatantly did it as if we fans are complete idiots.

        Total votes:
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      9. Irish con says:

        So it’s ok if you do it but not as long as not as many people notice is what your effectively saying. Team orders have always been in f1 and they will be in future. As dc sayed today any team who says they don’t have teams orders is lieing. It’s that simple. Even button being told at turkey to save more fuel as not to pass lewis is team orders and when lewis asked is jenson going to pass me if I back off is team orders when the answer is no lewis

        Total votes:
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      10. 0.500 sec per lap is a lifetime in F1. Alonso was therefore much quicker than Massa.

        Look at it this way, if Ferrari had allowed their drivers to fight freely on track and it had ended in disaster then there would have been hell to pay. Domenicalli would not have taken this decision lightly and would have known that there would be consequences but the consequences of yet another Ferrari bad result would have been much greater. This team have the pressure of an entire nation on their shoulders – they simply had to deliver a result this weekend or 2010 was lost.

        All these calls for Ferrari to be excluded from the result and have points taken away are utter sour grapes. Ferrari fully deserved a 1-2 regardless of the order of that 1-2. Only Vettel could stay with them and even he couldn’t really attack. Everyone need to keep this in perspective.

        Total votes:
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      11. Mr. Wrong says:

        If you are clever enough to notice that McLaren (and the rest of the teams to be fair) employ and make use of orders to favour the driver with the most advantage it is surprising that you are willing to accept them if they are done in a covert manner. Isn’t that double standards? Or to put it bluntly, idiotic? Either you accept them or you don’t and if it is the latter, I’d suggest that you start taking interest in other sports where those things don’t happen. Though you may be limited to stamp collecting or train spotting. Team orders are common place and that has been the case since the sport started. Banning them is simply a token gesture to keep fans, like yourself, happy that “something is being done” to stop those “horrible” things from happening.
        At the end of the day the team pays the drivers’ salary and if you are employed you will know what that means. Ferrari has always favoured the driver with the most chances of winning the championship, they are not about to change that because of a strongly worded forum message.

        Total votes:
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      12. mp4-19b says:

        People who bring up Heikki & Lewis incident are totally nuts. It is you guys who have selective memories. HAMILTON WENT ON TO PASS A BMW,A FERRARI & A RENAULT after passing Heikki. So he passed 3 more cars unlike Alonso who was neither quicker than Massa nor did he have any cars to pass.

        I think Ferrari deserve to be thrown outta the constructors championship.

        Total votes:
        0

      13. Irish con says:

        So what your saying is it would have been ok if it had of been for 4th and 5th. Don’t be so stupid. I have the report in autosport from the following week of the german gp two years ago where mark Hughes clearly states than mclaren came on radio to remind heikki lewis was faster. So how is this any different. If Ferrari get thrown out of this race or championship or whatever then lewis should lose his championship and alonso should get 07 championship. Remember I think it was 06 at indianapolos fernando moved over to let fisi threw even though he was going for championship that year. I think if it was allowed then why not today and it’s just Ferrai and fernando haters who who will think otherwise.

        Total votes:
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      14. Alonso built a gap of almost 5 seconds against a guy in the exact same car who was being hunted down by Vettel. As you say, there was nobody else for him to pass other than everyone else up to 7th place who he lapped.

        Alonso was 0.5 seconds per lap faster than Massa all the way from qualifying through to the race. By rights he should have been over 30 seconds ahead of Massa by the end of the race had he not been held up. That would also have allowed Massa to extend his lead over Vettel due to the fact he would no longer have been driving defensively against Alonso and would have given them both a comfortable cushion over the competition. Massa should have yielded when Alonso almost passed him earlier in the race. Would have been better for the entire team.

        Total votes:
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      15. p90 says:

        So he passed 3 more cars unlike Alonso who was neither quicker than Massa nor did he have any cars to pass…..

        you are so clever…. alonso became first…. he has no more cars to pass…

        Total votes:
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      16. Michael P says:

        I agree… Kovi just did the same thing… just more subtly and let Lewis past… didn’t hear the same uproar I hear now. Not sure why Massa made it so obvious but maybe it is the Brazilian way… Rubens also made it obvious with MS. 😛

        Total votes:
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      17. DK says:

        Silent protest, maybe?

        Total votes:
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      18. **Paul** says:

        @IrishCon,

        Glad I’m not the only one to remember this incident. The facts are simple, Lewis was their drivers Championship challenger that year, just as Alonso is for Ferrari. I’ll also add that Hamilton won the championship by 1 point that year from Massa. If Lewis had had to battle with Heikki he might not have had the time to get to P1 in that race, we’ll never know for certain, but team orders could have settled the title in 08.

        Ferrari made this move to help them win both Championships. Other teams would have made the same move in that situation, McLaren did in 2008, and I’m sure we’ll see it happen again this season.

        The fuss is all because it was fairly obvious, but if you dont use team orders you get a RBR situation in Turkey. And whilst I talk of Turkey, Hamiltons unhappyness at the end of that race was because he thought his team mate wouldn’t pass him, he thought team orders were in play… they were about half a lap after Button passed him, but the point remains McLaren use team orders, Ferrari use team orders, most of the paddock use team orders.

        I support Ferrari’s decision, but not the way in which is happened, it needs to be a little more subtle otherwise the anti-Ferrari brigade are out in force with their blinkers on.

        Total votes:
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    3. Bim says:

      It ruined the whole race and i definatly thing Ferrari should be disqualifyed from the race, the problem is that poor Massa is gona get punished again probably. And i cant belive how Alonso can keep his his face straigt and say what hes saying.
      I cant belive how stupidly the ferrarri management has acted.

      Total votes:
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    4. Michael P says:

      Awesome job by Ferrari controlling ther drivers unlike Red Bull. Red Bull would be leading the championship right now if the drivers didn’t take each other out constantly. Ferrari are smart, Alonso was way faster than Massa all weekend long and is way ahead of Massa in points so its time to throw their weight behind he guy that has the best odds of winning.

      Total votes:
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      1. Nando says:

        Way faster? Massa pulled out a 4 second gap, Alonso only caught him because Massa caught every bad break in the traffic while Alonso caught them all on the straights.

        Total votes:
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      2. Frank says:

        Spot on! They pragmatic but awful actors!

        Total votes:
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      3. Jeff says:

        Take each other out constantly, err, you mean once, don’t you. I think its fair game to do team orders very late in the season when a championship is on the line, which was not the case yesterday. Ferrari have no respect for fans or racing. A fair result would be to reverse the order, they deserve to win the race.

        Total votes:
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      4. Panya says:

        I totally agree with you. I think many people who posted against Ferrari do not understand how a team is managed.

        Like it or not, all the teams have carried out some forms of “team order” – no exception.

        Total votes:
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      5. MJ says:

        I would say that Ferrari’s move was anything but smart. They’re going to lose their constructors points for the race and they have alienated one of their drivers who probably felt that he was part of the Ferrari family.

        By his body language you can clearly see he felt betrayed.

        Total votes:
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    5. Nick H says:

      I agree, absolutte disgrace to deny Massa the win.
      I thought Alonso wanted be regarded as one of the best drivers in F1 history yet he his happy to take victories with the assistance of his team mate moving aside if unable to overtake fairly and squarely on the track.
      If i was Massa id ask Ferrari to tear up his new contract for the next two years and move to a team where drivers are allowed to race each other.

      Total votes:
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      1. Sean says:

        I am not denying that there aren’t team orders in F1. It is how you do it and the circumstance.

        The rules are there and if you are going to break it, at least do it in a more subtle manner instead of blatantly saying “Alonso’s pace is faster than yours. Can you confirm you have understood that”.

        It’s as if you are an untouchable and that you can do anything you want blatantly and you can get away with it.

        Yeah so what if Alonso was faster than Massa. He still couldn’t pass him more than half the race. And Massa gace him a good fight when Alonso overtook him for a moment. If you can’t pass the guy in front of you then it’s just too bad. Don’t sulk behind the wheel.

        2 races ago Fernando was moaning that race was manipulated. So now his team have manipulated the race, so what has he got to say? Don’t forget the race he won in Singapore in 2008 was spectacularly manipulated. And please…don’t tell me he has got no idea that it was manipulated…

        So Alonso should just stop moaning about races manipulated etc when he’s guilty of being part of a manipulation.

        And he should stop moaning that he can’t overtake his team mate even though he’s faster.

        And we all know how Fernando reacts when his team mate is faster than him or when he starts becoming delusional and thinks his team is not behind him in his bid to win the title….

        A brilliant driver like him shouldn’t stoop so low and behave like that…

        Total votes:
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      2. Rossdesign says:

        Spot on, Hamilton toweled him up so I hope massa can go on and do it now, tho I doubt he’ll be allowed

        Total votes:
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      3. Robert Lujan says:

        Spot on, Alonso so just shut-it when it come to conspiracies! He has had a hand in most the last few years…. I still wonder why Domenicali wasn’t man enough to tell Massa himself? Was it to make it less obvious? Felipe took care of that by blatantly slowing down for Fernando. Smedley did sound very sorry about the whole situation on the radio. Lets hope Ferrari don’t do something lame and fire Rob for all this! That would be just in thier character….

        Total votes:
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      4. Adam Tate says:

        I agree Nick H. That’s hollow victory number 2 for Alonso. Another sad consequence of it is that he now passes Damon Hill for 10th on the all time win list, that is, if this result stands. It should be reversed, handing Massa the win. It’s shocking to see Ferrari treat Massa so badly. A man who has stood by them, won 11 GP’s for them, an honorable team player.

        I would love to see Massa win the Championship, but he’s probably too far back by now. If he can’t, I hope it goes to Webber or one of the McLaren boys.

        If Alonso or Vettel win the championship I may be sick. I don’t care if we ever see Alonso win another race. He has fully disgraced himself in my eyes.

        Total votes:
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    6. Brian says:

      As long as it is required to have a two driver team, this will be a problem.

      Total votes:
      0

    7. ian says:

      Ferrari are cheats. Cheats like Ferrari. Seems to me that F1 positively encourages it. What a shoddy example they set in the world of sport. What a joke, the fans once again ate treated like mugs.

      Total votes:
      0

    8. Peter says:

      Where is the fair play rule in F1? It may sound the same to Ferrari, but certainly not to everyone else. We know the practice has been around for years, but it DOES NOT mean it is right.

      It is now time for action. Otherwise the rules are drafted for nothing !

      Total votes:
      0

    9. Matt NZ says:

      Agree – Absolute Disgrace.

      2002 was meant to be the end of this. There is a clear rule. Ferrari broke it.

      The logical punishment is to lose all points for both Ferrari cars from the race.

      This will be fantastic solution for a number of reasons

      1) Send a message to these ignorant team managers that this practice is unacceptable

      2) Send a message to other team staff not to get involved in any such practices

      3) Send a message to the lead (i.e. in this case Massa) driver, do not relinquish your position to your team mate

      4) Send a message to the following driver (i.e. Alonso), do not expect your team mate to gift you a position.

      Disgraceful.

      Total votes:
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    10. Chris says:

      Anybody who watches F1 regularly knows that team orders exist in every team, they always have done. Ferrari handled this very poorly and deserve to be critised. However is it any different to when Hamilton and Button were undoubtled told not to challange each other and hold position after nearly taking each other out towards the end of the race in Turkey? This is such a grey area and to punish Ferrari any further would be unfair when you consider how many other examples have gone un-punished.

      Total votes:
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    11. Reuben says:

      I’m a Ferrari supporter ever since Alesi & Berger drove for them, & even through the Shummi years…

      although I’m an Alonso supporter, I am dissapointed that its come to this. One would’ve thought that Ferrari learnt their lesson in Austria & that they could’ve handled the situation better…

      Its not great for the sport…but at the same time…there is a lot riding on the championship for all te teams & Ferrari sees wining the championship far more important than sportmanship…

      Total votes:
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  2. Robbm says:

    Today I watched a fraud, If FA was/is faster than FM then why didn’t he overtake, that’s racing isn’t it?
    Ferrari should be excluded from this race, FA should be deducted his points and have his win taken away. If he can’t overtake then he doesn’t deserve to win.
    Simple.

    rob

    Total votes:
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    1. Tripod Ape says:

      Completely agree and to watch Alsonso, Massa, Smedley and Domenicali all lie through their teeth (some more gritted than others) just makes you feel like a mug for having wasted two hours to watch a race.

      Total votes:
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      1. Tim says:

        I don’t condone this at all, however I can understand the thought process from Ferrari management. It does give them the best chance of winning the championship.

        What makes me very angry are the lies. I couldn’t believe Alonso in the press conference. He talked about Massa having a slow run out of the corner, allowing him to take advantage and pass him – as if it was a legitimate move. Does he think the fans are stupid?

        If Alonso had talked about a team victory and flatly thanked Massa for making a decision to move over, it would have been an easier pill to swallow.

        Total votes:
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    2. Knuckles says:

      As we all know, you can be 1 second or more per lap faster and still not be able to overtake. Yet the same second can secure that you won’t come under a championship rival’s pressure.

      That doesn’t make Ferrari’s decision right per se, but to announce “if he was faster why didn’t he overtake” does not take into account the complexities of F1.

      Total votes:
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      1. GP says:

        Well said.

        Total votes:
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      2. Alexis says:

        You forget that Alonso did attempt to overtake and had plenty of time to try again and again. Alonso threw his dummy out of the pram because he failed the first time and whinged to the team.

        Total votes:
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      3. Biggus says:

        Brut in this case Vettel was way behind and losing ground. Alonso was in no danger. It was a farce.

        Total votes:
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    3. Robert Lujan says:

      Agreed.

      Total votes:
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  3. Neil says:

    A discrace. I thought team orders were banned. Maybe we are all being fooled.

    Total votes:
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    1. Peter Freeman says:

      At this point in time with a mere $100 000 fine the FIA are more guilty that Ferrari of “bringing the sport into disrepute” unless the World Council takes further action.

      Ferrari should be made to produce all legal documentation concerning both of its drivers contracts to see if there are any clauses that relate to team orders. If any such thing is mentioned in any contact, then surely it would be clear that Ferrari and its drivers have intended to break the rules and intended to bring the sport into disrepute?

      If I were a person who had placed a large bet on Massa winning, I would consider legal action against the FIA and Ferrari if they allow the results to stand as they are. What happened on track today, in light of the existing rules, is nothing short of financial fraud. If the FIA do not act to enforce the existing rules then the FIA are a part of the fraud.

      If I was a lawyer in the EU, I would consider advertising for all people who had bet on a Massa win to contact me and orchestrate and file a mass action suite against one or both parties involves. The monetary value in this must be HUGE! What were to odds on Massa winning?

      Total votes:
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      1. Adam Jackson says:

        You could get 40/1 on Thursday

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      2. Peter Freeman says:

        A point was made by someone: “Why… do you think that Ferrari is obliged to show on what contracts their drivers are. No body in this world has control over it. It is up to them solely.”

        I would think the all the teams and drives do not take to the tack at the beginning of the season without signing a contract with the FIA that they obligate themselves to follow all the rules and agree that should they fail to do so they will be penalised.

        Why would driver contacts, that exist solely for the purpose of drives participating in F1, not be the business of the FIA and the WMSC if they obligate a driver to break the rules of F1, which that driver has to agree to follow, in order to race in F1?

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  4. Peter Jones says:

    Hmmm, Alonso doesn’t seem to mind manipulated races any more, does he?
    Great to see Ferrari resume their dishonest, manipulative, cheating, pantomime villain roles again just as I was starting to like them again. Lets hope the stewards are able to do something about the blatant disregard for the rules – under Mosely, we know they wouldn’t have done anything, but who knows what side of the fence Todt is on.

    I do feel a little bit sorry for Massa and Rob Smedley, hopefully the financial reward is worth it for them.

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    1. Peter Jones says:

      Actually, seeing the press conference, Massa deserves a tiny bit of respect back. At least he was as honest as he could be about what happened, unlike his team mate who tried to make up some pathetic excuse for how he overtook.

      Total votes:
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      1. Roberto says:

        Yes, Alonso’s answers were pathetic, a total lie.

        Total votes:
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      2. Banjo says:

        I really felt sorry for Massa during the press conference. It was just embarrassing for Alonso watching him try and make out he over took Massa.

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      3. I think you’ll find that it was Rob Smedley who came up with the thing about Massa making a mistake and going up three gears instead of one. Alonso just said he saw Massa going slowly and took advantage.

        All radio traffic was available to the media this weekend so I’m sure we would have heard if Alonso was given some sort of signal to overtake Massa.

        Total votes:
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      4. Emma says:

        What kind of signal would Alonso need? Surely Massa slowing down to a crawl tells Alonso quite clearly that they have given Massa orders to let him through.

        Total votes:
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      5. TC says:

        Go and watch the press conference after China 08 when Raikkonen let Massa thru. I’m pretty sure Massa came up with a ‘pathetic excuse’ about Raikkonen struggling with his pace after the final pit stop that allowed him to catch up and over take Kimi…

        Seriously, to paraphrase Steve Jobs ‘If you don’t like the product, don’t buy it!’

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    2. Rus_h says:

      Still it was better than winning a race by getting your team mate to crash. Alonso is one of the best out there, but he has no class and is happy to take hollow victory’s rather than earn them by racing. Shame on him.

      Total votes:
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      1. johnpierre rivera says:

        i seem to remember another guy from brazil that crashed his team mate out, was that what you mean by “class?” however, everyone seems to think he is the greatest driver that ever was. is any one saying “shame on him”

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    3. gn23 says:

      Talk about “manipulation of a race”. Isn’t it ironic that the guy who is the first to cry race manipulation when there isnt any manipulation, is always the beneficiary of a really manipulated race. Singapore and now this. And you get people saying he is the best or most complete driver in F1. Give me a break.

      Total votes:
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  5. James H says:

    Alonso is a spoilt petulant child, Ferrari have yet again broken the rules and it is a SHAM!

    Yet another poor day for the ‘sport’.

    Total votes:
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    1. And this is Alonso’s fault because…… ? Oh yes, because he was 0.5 seconds a lap faster than Massa. What a bad boy, he should go slower in future!

      Please…

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      1. Luis says:

        Sorry, Craig … but if by that time FA was that faster, he should have just approached and battled hard for this win instead of keeping whinning. On the end of the day, this is all about sport: fans want to see battles and overtakes, and not just naughty team orders.

        This could have been a redemption race for Ferrari – but they made it all of a mess

        Total votes:
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      2. I never heard Fernando “Whining”.

        At one stage he said, “This is ridiculous” in Italian but to be fair, Massa had just closed the door pretty firmly on him, risking contact, and prior to that Massa had locked his brakes at pretty much every corner on the circuit. My interpretation was that Alonso was saying that it is ridiculous for two teammates to be fighting like this when the one behind is clearly faster. Remember it has often been said that you need to have a car which is 2 seconds a lap faster to overtake cleanly. Alonso only (ONLY ha!) had 0.5 seconds over Massa.

        Alonso WOULD have fought for the lead but Ferrari told Massa the situation and Massa decided to yield. I really struggle to see how this is Alonso’s fault. All he did was drive really really fast all weekend. Isn’t that what racing is about?

        Total votes:
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      3. Andy says:

        @ craig chamberlain.. No that’s what qualifying is.

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      4. Mart Hugh says:

        If Alonsa was just justified in being ahead od Massa on merit, then presumably he would have overtaken him – or I have misunderstood what this sport is supposed to be about.

        Total votes:
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      5. Biggus says:

        Craig, Massa was in front because he deserved to be. The team swapped the order. Guilty. As the drivers are always saying, there’s no points for qualifying. Massa was ahead in the race, therefore he had the right to the win.
        It would have made a great story, “Massa wins a year to the day after death defying crash,” instead it’s this debacle.

        Total votes:
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      6. Eric says:

        Craig it doesn’t matter if Alonso was faster. He was behind on the track because Massa had been faster when it mattered and had the place on MERIT.

        Saying Alonso deserved to be let through is like saying a tennis player should win if he gets beaten 6-0 6-0 6-4 with straight aces in the last set; or a marathon runner should win if he’s 5 minutes behind on the last mile, then breaks the world record in the last mile and comes second; or a football team should win if they score “better” goals than the other team.

        Total votes:
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      7. Sorry but your analogies are tenuous at best.

        Massa got an open door from Vettel because he was too busy trying to run Alonso into the wall. You could use the analogy of a tag team here since you like using analogies. Alonso distracted Vettel and Massa got through. Teamwork!

        Alonso was then able to follow Massa comfortably even when Massa started locking brakes at almost every corner trying to get away from him. Alonso eventually got a chance to overtake but Massa put him in a position where he had to back off or collide. That is when Alonso said that this was ridiculous which as far as I am aware is the only comment Alonso made during the race. He then backed off by 3 seconds to conserve fuel and allow his tyres to recover ready for a late charge (I believe) and then when he was ready he cruised up behind Massa again in a few short laps despite Massa pushing like hell.

        Alonso would NOT have just sat there in 2nd place – he was on a mission to put his season back on track and wanted a win. Whether he would have got past cleanly was largely up to Massa and in my view Massa did the sensible thing and yielded rather than risk an embarrassment for the team by trying to defend against a faster driver on a track where overtaking is far from impossible. Alonso would have got him before the end of the race anyway but there was perhaps a 30% chance of an accident. An accident here would probably have finished off Ferrari’s season.

        All credit to Massa, he did the team a good turn by putting his own ambitions on hold. You could argue that this is what separates the likes of Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton and Hakkinen from the likes of Massa, Barrichello, Kovalainen and Coulthard. None of the former would ever yield to the latter unless it made absolutely no difference to their own championship position.

        Total votes:
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    2. CHUBASCO . C says:

      My personal thoughts tells me F 1 is no longer a “sport” for years now, it’s a business……

      Very sad for the fans…….today is another example of how unfair it can be…..

      Total votes:
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      1. Declan says:

        Have you been watching the Tour de France? do you consider cycling a sport – where there are lead riders in the teams?

        Total votes:
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  6. Jey says:

    James,

    Michael as usual made a very good start and made up places only to pit early and loose that advantage.This is not the first time this happened this year.Can you please explain this?Nico has been doing longer opening stints thereby enabling him to make some positions when the pit stops happen.But thats not the case with Michael.Whose making this pit calls?Is Michael prefering to stop earlier?With
    Mercedez,Renault,Williams all evenly matched track position is king,isnt it?

    Also with team orders being banned,we have a whole new set of orders coming in
    “We have to preserve fuel” from Mclaren and today Ferrari was more blunt when it
    told Massa “Fernando is faster than you;Can you please confirm you understood that message” and what do we see – Mass lifting off to let Alonso pass.How exactly does Massa feel about this?The poor guy almost lost his life last year driving this car and must certainly be miffed at the treatment Ferrari hand out to him now

    Total votes:
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    1. Peter Freeman says:

      I have to disagree about your McLaren comparison.

      Clearly the “We have to preserve fuel” communication from McLaren was no kind of ‘team order’ as the drivers proceeded to overtake each other with no regard to saving fuel at all, nearly taking each other out in the process!

      Surely the drivers actions is evidence in itself and was not what MW would want ‘for the teams sake’?

      Total votes:
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      1. RaulZ says:

        Those were clear Team orders, my friend. But they didn’t want to obey. Button didn’t. When those words were said to Webber, and weren’t to Vettel, Webber did’t obey aswell. Massa obeyed, but later he seemed to have repented.

        Total votes:
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  7. Matt_2745 says:

    I hope that the stewards will take some action over this although I don’t expect them to. What is the point in having the rule in place if it is not to be enforced?

    Total votes:
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    1. Trent says:

      The rule is only there for show. Fair enough, Austria ’02 was an embarassment. But this rule can’t be policed, so it should be abandoned.

      The only way to prevent debacles like this is to fully legalise team orders.

      Total votes:
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      1. Bo Amato says:

        Coultard – Hakkinen in Australia I believe

        Total votes:
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  8. Milton says:

    Now Alonso has two fixed races in his CV… impressive.

    Total votes:
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    1. Mart Hugh says:

      A hypocrite with his reputation in tatters.

      I really dont understand where sporting values come in when a competitor can benefit without conscience from a team mate intentionally writing off their car to bring out a safety car, or from badgering the team to let get their team mate to yield (as happened today)

      If he really was faster today he should have overtaken – or perhaps I no longer understand what this sport is all about.

      Total votes:
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  9. Lee Cripps says:

    Yet again, Ferrari cheated.

    Why do they think they are above the law?

    Massa had every right to hold that win. Why should he let Alonso through, he’s a rival to his title chances just the same as everyone else out there.

    Despicable behaviour from Ferrari!

    Total votes:
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    1. Richard says:

      Totally agree!

      Total votes:
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    2. rodrigo says:

      I wouldn’t say *team* ferrari cheated, they had a 1-2 before forcing FM to give the win to FA… still a 1-2 for the team.

      Team ferrari just treated an employee very harshly, unless it is in FM’s contract to yield FA, then FM did was he is payed to do.

      Does anybody know the complexities of F1 contracts? Would there be clauses that state “at team orders, you will yield position to your team mate” or something like that?

      I feel sorry for for FM because it looks like he will never win a GP when he is ahead of FA as long as he races for ferrari, his employer. FM’s only hope of a GP win is with FA coming in 3rd or lower.

      Total votes:
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      1. James Allen says:

        It is agreed that the drivers will do what the team ask them to do. Even Raikkonen pulled over for Massa once

        Total votes:
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      2. A.K. says:

        One can perfectly understand the the Ferrari management’s viewpoint in this matter and why they would want Alonso to maximise his points haul from the race. Every other team in a similar circumstance would have done the same, e.g. in the 2008 German GP when Kovalainen moved over for Hamilton, the extra point that earned Hamilton the Championship title that year, one could argue. This is not the issue.

        The issue is that there’s a rule in place to prevent such occurrences of team orders but it still happens as teams have found ways to circumvent the wording of rule. Now the rules need to be rewritten to crack down hard on team orders or simple allow team orders again in no uncertain terms. I’d rather have that than this mockery of the rules that we have now.

        Total votes:
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      3. Eric says:

        Much later in the season when Raikkonen was out of contention. Massa isn’t yet.

        I’d also be quite confident in betting on Alonso not having a chance of winning the championship so the place shuffling will be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. All it has done is bring the ‘sport’ into disrepute.

        Total votes:
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  10. Jamie says:

    A clear example of cheating, Ferrari have lost a fan in me today – and doing that to a driver who nearly lost his life for his team is just repulsive. I hope the FIA thrown the book at them and they lost their points for this race.

    Total votes:
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  11. Tom says:

    I’m no fan of team orders but the situation speaks volumes about the sport I (used to) love. Purely and simply, Alonso stood no chance of passing Massa without the latter having some form of technical problem. The input of drivers’ respective skills is minimal with regard to closing a gap and making an overtaking move and when two drivers share a car, there’s pressure not to attempt the riskier moves.

    I think it’s time we saw a sport with far less reliance upon technical excellence and far more driver input.

    I’m less inclined to watch the race next weekend; a twisty track with few overtaking opportunities. Doesn’t exactly offer much.

    Total votes:
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  12. Banjo says:

    It’s painful watching Alonso in the press conference trying to make out it wasn’t team orders. Whether team orders should be allowed or not it has spoilt a good race for me. Personally, i feel Massa deserved to win – whether he would have or not is another matter.

    On a brighter note – the championship is really hotting up now. Three teams look like strong contenders. Roll on next weekend.

    Total votes:
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  13. Erik ( Brazil ) says:

    Alonso should get at least a 20 second penalty.

    Total votes:
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    1. Bim says:

      Alonso should be disqualifyed!!!!

      Total votes:
      0

      1. Ikertzeke says:

        Why? He did nothing wrong.

        Total votes:
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    2. Shaun says:

      I say 27 second penalty, that would drop him 0.1s behind Lewis and really wind him up :)

      Total votes:
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      1. Robert Lujan says:

        LOL Perfect punishment!!

        Total votes:
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    3. Richard says:

      Unless there was a radio message to Alonso on the lines of “get ready to overtake Massa when he pulls over for you”, he is inoccent on this occasion! Unfortunately, the one who was clearly complicit in the cheating was poor old Massa.

      Total votes:
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      1. Mart Hugh says:

        Sure. Just like there was plausible reliability of his involvement in Singapore last year. Wise up please.

        Total votes:
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    4. Eric says:

      The best way to penalise Ferrari, besides throwing them out of the drivers and constructors championships (and losing all their share of the money as a result), would be to penalise both drivers. Take points away from Alonso and Massa, and Ferrari. This would send the message: the team shouldn’t suggest on the radio for drivers to move over, the lead driver won’t move over in the future because he’ll lose his points, and the the driver behind won’t take a gifted overtake because he’ll also lose points. The best part of this would be Massa wouldn’t be too fussed because he hardly cares about a second place, Alonso would be enraged, and Ferrari would lose some constructor’s money.

      Total votes:
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  14. Fausto Cedros says:

    It’s been disgusting.Now there should be some kind of action against those cheaters.

    Total votes:
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    1. Ikertzeke says:

      Who are those? Ferrari, Massa, Alonso, neither or all of them?

      Total votes:
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  15. CH1UNDA says:

    Yet another manipulated race where Fernando comes out on top. For all the beating Red Bull have received about favouritism i am curious to see how much Ferrari is going to get for this. Is Massa the next Barichello?

    Total votes:
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  16. Galapago555 says:

    Fully agree, James. Obviously, it was team orders. I don’t know what the penalty should be, let’s wait for CW imagination. Actually it is strange that a penalty was not given during the race.

    By the way, when Hamilton was told on Team Radio that Jenson was not going to overtake him… I assume this was not Team Orders.

    And my question: what in your opinion should be the treatment to Team Orders? I mean if I were the Team owner I would want my money invested in the best way, and this means a limited fight between both drivers, and of course certain orders when needed.

    Total votes:
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    1. Peter Jones says:

      Both situations are highly dodgy and against the rules, but I see a big difference between ordering two drivers to hold station avoiding the risk of taking each other off the track, and ordering two drivers to change position just so one of them can earn a couple of extra points.

      If a driver wants to be a position higher he should earn it either by overtaking or through his mechanics employing a better strategy. Not by throwing tantrums, silly clauses in contracts, or blackmail.

      Total votes:
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      1. Galapago555 says:

        I do not see differences. At the end of the day, you have a race’s results modified by the interest of a Team.

        Maybe we would not be discussing this issue should Ferrari had told Felipe “you have to save fuel or you will not make the finish line”, or something like that.

        Does anybody remember this same track, two years ago, with Kovalainen being “overtaken” by Hamilton?

        Total votes:
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      2. Ross Dixon says:

        Also Hamilton was asking that as he was told to slow down, so he was asking will Button overtake cause he is faster or will he hold station as he was in the same fuel saving mode. Thats how I saw it.

        Remember it does happen and thats not really an issue if it is not that blatant. Alonso was not faster at least by that much. If he was say 1 second slower and had several cars in front that he could catch then i see the point. However when its for the lead especially then it is obviously more of an issue

        Total votes:
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      3. Ikertzeke says:

        There is not “fuel saving mode”, please, do not be so naive with MacLaren and so harsh with Ferrari

        Total votes:
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      4. J. Singh says:

        The team should be reprimanded and not the driver. If anyone is at fault here it is the Scuderia Ferrari and not the driver Alonso.
        Sanctions against the team are expected…I believe they will loose their points though I would not want that to happen to the drivers.

        Total votes:
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  17. Nathan Smith says:

    Ferrari are an absolute disgrace.

    Teflonso strikes again. Massa was brilliant today, including the press conference.

    I look forward to hearing if the stewards will be looking at this.

    Total votes:
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    1. Nathan Smith says:

      Hi James,

      They’ve obviously been sent to the WMSC to answer this, what do you think the possible sanctions are?

      Total votes:
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  18. Dan D. says:

    Well it was a good race at the beginning but we didn’t see the level of overtaking that we saw last time at Silverstone. Kind of a boring track.

    Regarding the team orders, I have to say it was pretty horrible how they did it – there’s no way they could have been any more obvious about it. For me, this shows that the FIA got it wrong in 2002 when they banned team orders and forced all the teams to conceal this stuff. Team orders have been part of every championship ever. Like DC just said on the BBC, every team in this pit lane gives team orders and every team that says that they don’t is lying.

    Total votes:
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  19. S J W says:

    I’m absolutely seething about the thinly veiled team orders- not good for the sport.

    Total votes:
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  20. mark OZ says:

    Good race by ferrari, but those trophies look a lot like Slander logos which I thought was against the sporting regulations… forza Filepe :)

    Total votes:
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  21. HowardHughes says:

    Eddie Jordan (whom I like) is bleating on about the injustice of the fans being deprived of an epic battle; but isn’t this the same EJ who forbade the 2nd place Ralf Schumacher from trying to overtake the leading Damon Hill, despite having the faster car…

    Pot, kettle anyone?

    Total votes:
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    1. James H says:

      You may not like the idea but team orders weren’t illegal then.

      Total votes:
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      1. Robert says:

        And Jordan had never won a race before and they did not swap positions. Holding station is different to what we saw today

        Total votes:
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      2. Chris says:

        The other thing to bear in mind is that (from memory) Damon was around 20s or so ahead of Ralf until his lead was obliterated by a late safety car. Damon felt that he’d done enough to warrent the team calling off his team mate. The threats about running Ralf off the road was perhaps a sign to EJ to take him seriously.

        Total votes:
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    2. Chris says:

      Which was completely legal under the rules at the time.

      Total votes:
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      1. HowardHughes says:

        All true. In my defence I wrote this a good 10 minutes before EJ himself clarified all these points (though I knew about the legality of it in those days)

        My post was merely an instant reaction to EJ complaining purely about the concept of team orders in general.

        Total votes:
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      2. LJ says:

        While I agreed with EJ on team orders today, he then went and said it was fine in the case of Massa Kimi “because it was the last race and that’s different”.

        Imho that is even worse, because without that manipulation/collusion between team and drivers Hamilton/Alonso could have won the championship that year.

        So in my mind it depreciates Kimi’s WDC.

        I hate cheating, but blatant cheating like in todays race is somehow worse. Because it’s in your face and Ferrari are saying, look at what we are doing but you can’t touch us.

        Just for that I hope the World Council come down hard on them. Never liked Ferrari, but now I hate them. At the same time my respect has gone up for Massa, felt sorry for Rob Smedley, but he should have had the balls to ignore the request from his bosses.

        Total votes:
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      3. James Allen says:

        It’s not cheating, although as the rules are currently worded, they did break the rules.

        Total votes:
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  22. KidrA says:

    What happened today at Hockenheimring is the exact reason why I dislike Ferrari from Schumacher years and I don’t understand how anyone can like them.

    Total votes:
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    1. AlexD says:

      As tough as it can sound, if you were Domenicali, you would do the same thing. I do not say I agree, but it is business, not sport.

      Total votes:
      0

      1. rodrigo says:

        I would not… for the simple that reason that It is a business *because* it’s supposed to be a sport. I am sure many of us would not watch or attend a GP if we knew the race winners were fixed. I think Santander may think twice at sponsoring a fake champion that cannot win races unless his team mate gets orders to let him pass… would you want a unworthy winner to promote your business?

        -R

        Total votes:
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      2. JimmiC says:

        “it is business, not sport.”

        That’s the real tragedy. F1 was a sport, once.

        Total votes:
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      3. RaulZ says:

        It never was a sport, it was and it is a competition. A bit diferent.

        Total votes:
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      4. Mouse_Nightshirt says:

        “…but it is business, not sport.”

        Which is exactly the problem with F1.

        Total votes:
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      5. chris scott says:

        Along with cvcs debts

        Total votes:
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    2. Nick H says:

      KidrA, i feel exactly the same, i used dislike Ferrari during the Schumacher years but in recent years have warmed to them slightly………tonight i dislike them as much as i ever have.

      Total votes:
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  23. Christopher says:

    There’s a big difference between team orders that are to hold station (e.g. to bring home a result) and team orders that require one driver to give way to another. To win the race, you have to *overtake* the people in front of you! That is what I, as a fan, give my Sunday afternoon to see, and it ruins the race when the winner hasn’t won the race, but rather was just handed it on a plate. There was no celebration at the end of the race, no jubilation or emotion. The ending was so flat, with just the bitter aftertaste of seeing a dejected Felipe in the press conference. It was made worse by Alonso trying to pretend he made a real overtake, and the Ferrari people trying to pretend that there were no team orders. We are not idiots.

    Total votes:
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    1. AlexD says:

      I am a Ferrari fan. I know it was a team order – I did not like it one bit. There are thousands of Ferrari fans who think the same way, but It was no different from “Save fuel, Mark” and it was a tough call Domenicaly rightly made to give a chance to win WDC in 2010. Massa doesn’t have this chance, he did not show it this year.
      P.S. I love Massa and do not like Alonso.

      Total votes:
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      1. Peter Jones says:

        It is different, because it gave Alonso a position he hadn’t earned and didn’t deserve.
        Telling someone to save fuel and preserving the current order (while still being wrong) is more justifiable as it prevents drivers from taking needless risks and ending up with a Valencia situation, but at least in those circumstances the drivers had earned the position they were in at the time.

        Total votes:
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      2. AlexD says:

        How about British GP2008,Hamilton vs Kova? how different?
        Team orders are everywhere where teams are under huge pressure to deliver….

        Total votes:
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      3. Carlos Marques says:

        “Telling someone to save fuel and preserving the current order…is justifiable as it prevents drivers from taking needless risks.”

        Telling them that the one behind is slightly faster and is about to make a kamikaze move (that may take both cars out of the race) is also about preventing needless risks, in my view.

        Fernando was faster than Massa at many points in the race, and the only reason he did not attack was because the car in front was Massa’s Ferrari- anyone else and he would have made a few bold moves.

        What if I had a huge bet on Fernando Alonso winning the grand prix and he was told to hold station and not try anything crazy, in order “to conserve fuel”? I would feel mad…

        Also, what if they were in 2dn and 3rd positions and Ferrari decided that Fernando had a better chance of challenging the car leading the race? Shouldn’t they be allowed to ask their cars to swap positions?

        I think it’s time the FIA drops the no-team-orders rule; it`s just silly…

        Total votes:
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      4. Peter Jones says:

        “Telling them that the one behind is slightly faster and is about to make a kamikaze move (that may take both cars out of the race) is also about preventing needless risks, in my view.”

        That may be true, but it’s still up to the driver behind to work out how he can overtake, and how much of a risk he is prepared to take doing it.

        Alonso has shown in the past he’s happy to overtake Massa legitimately on the track, even if at times it looked like it might have taken them both off without Massa backing down. This should have been no different.

        Total votes:
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      5. RaulZ says:

        Well, suggestions of saving fuel were said only to Webber, not to Vettel, so it looks as if the team wanted Vettel to pass Webber. Probably Webber would never have let him pass, as he did.

        I think those were team orders, and please, stop trying to convince everybody that they are different situations.

        Total votes:
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  24. F1ART says:

    Disgusted with this cheating, the result should be removed from Ferrari!!!!

    Total votes:
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    1. J. Singh says:

      I only hope that either of the drivers do not loose their points. I’m expecting Ferrari to loose their team points.

      Total votes:
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      1. Alonso4ever says:

        I totally agree with you J.Singh. Ferrari did act in a not so good way, but they did it in the best interest of the Team. I do not think Alonso or Massa should be penalized in any way. The most obvious and fair Penalty would be to strip Ferrari of the Constructor’s Points for the German GP because all this Fuss is due to the Team’s wrongdoings.

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  25. Robert Lujan says:

    OMG that was terrible from Ferrari! Niki Lauda was so mad he didn’t even try to hide it and his co-presenter Florian König really had trouble getting him to calm down. As a fan myself I cannot help but be disappointed with Ferrari. That was so obvious. I will not call it unnecessary, but Felipe earned it! Ferrari dropped the ball again. If they didn’t do it on purpose to see if they could get away with we might not ever know. Still very sad day in F1….

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  26. k2san says:

    I can understand team orders with respect to the end of the season. But at this point of time it’s an insult to the fans. It should be punished with a clear message to Ferrari. How it should be punished is something I have no real thought about since I do believe that Ferrari deserved the win. But something should be done.

    Total votes:
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  27. Alexandre says:

    What a shame! Alonso always acting as a prima donna. It’s funny how Fernando is always involved in this sort of issues. As he said once, in his old Renault days: Formula 1 is not a sport!! Well it’s not, mainly when you have a bank putting loads of $$$ in your team. Let’s see how FIA is going to react. Massa should retire after such a horrible move.

    Total votes:
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  28. Andrew Myers says:

    What’s the point in having a rule about team orders when it’s so blatantly disobeyed? They either need to enforce it (which I still hope they will), or scrap it.

    It’s an absolute disgrace. When you look back to the Red Bull drivers at Turkey, and what Ferrari did here, I have much much more respect for Red Bull as a team than I do for Ferrari. Shame Ferrari, shame.

    Didn’t Ferrari want 3 cars at one stage? Wouldn’t it be embarrasing watching 2 drivers pull over to let Fernando through.

    I sincerely hope Fernando gives Massa his trophy from this event, but his demeanour on the podium indicates that he won’t even say thank you to him.

    I am disgusted.

    Total votes:
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  29. Scott says:

    I am personally so disgusted with ferrari. Anytime there is clear cheating in the sport Alonso is always involved. I certainly hope he penalized for this. I cannot believe anyone would stand behind this sort of manipulation of a result

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  30. Biggus says:

    How can we respect such a victory? Alonso should be ashamed.

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  31. Rodger says:

    Mark Webber:
    “Qualified 0.7sec behind teammate, let two far slower cars past…
    Not bad for a number 2 driver…”

    Total votes:
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    1. Zobra Wambleska says:

      Get over it.

      Total votes:
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    2. Harriet and Blah Blah Nyborg says:

      And what about Vettel then? He qualified half a second faster than Massa, but couldn’t catch him.

      Didn’t you listen to the radio transmissions? Webber was right behind the McLarens and then was told to drop back 4 seconds because of engine overheating and an oil problem. From then on, he just had to nurse the car home to collect 6th.

      Total votes:
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    3. jack_faith says:

      vettel qualified pole again and finished third. And all those other poles and where did he finish? Not bad for a number 1 driver.

      Total votes:
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  32. Evan says:

    Ferrari = Bullshyte

    One can only wonder what Ferrari were thinkng ordering a move like that after the backlash last week about the Red Bull issues.
    Do they are too big for the sport, maybe a penalty of losing their points will bring them back into line.
    Nobody wants to see rubbish like that.

    Total votes:
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    1. Robert Lujan says:

      Christian Danner said in the race commentary that in “FerrariLand” there are rules for the other teams and none for Ferrari. It seems so with this result. Ferrari just got a fine. 100,000$ what is that? How much do they get per win or per point? That is what should have been taken away. Not 100,000$ that just goes to the FIA anyways. Like most people are saying I too am wondering why it is mostly Fernando with his hand in all these controversies! Is he really wanting to make Michael Schumacher look like an angel of the sport? Ferrari as a team should be thrown out. Felipe should have answered “Yes i do confirm that Fernando is faster, tell him to try and get past then!” And let them fight it out on the track.

      Total votes:
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  33. Slaven says:

    Definitely agree on the ‘how hard it had been to deliver that message’ agenda. Massa obviously made the situation difficult for Ferrari

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  34. Swanny says:

    I am really disappointed with Ferrari today. Team management should concern themselves with the Constructors championship, and leave the Drivers championship to the drivers. It appears that Ferrari haven’t changed since the old Schumacher days; what a shame.

    Total votes:
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  35. amit says:

    I think there’s going to be a lot of hue and cry about the way Alonso won the German Grand Prix, but IMHO the faster and better driver won the race.

    It’s worth pointing out the Alonso had two very good runs on Massa and showed great restraint in backing out which i am sure wouldn’t have been the case if he were racing any other car. Would love to hear your views on it.

    Total votes:
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    1. Lilla My says:

      I actually agree. I don’t see Alonso backing off the way he did when the Ferraris were lapping other cars, if it had been any other driver in front of him. I think he might not be a perfect team player, but I guess he’s actually much better in it than many people suggest.

      It was a disgrace for the team, but I just hate seeing people blaming Alonso for the whole situation. I know many people hate him (and I know Felipe deserved the win), but give the man a break. Not everything is his fault… He was mad to be stuck behind Massa again, but it’s the team that gives the team orders not Fernando Alonso.
      I honestly don’t get where all this hatred for Alonso comes from. He’s not saint for sure, but neither is Hamilton (who so many Alonso haters praise so much).

      Total votes:
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      1. rafa says:

        actually, it´s curious the double standard a lot of people apply: a couple of weeks ago, when Hamilton made a clearly illegal move, that could be fully labeled as cheating, i.e: gaining an advantage by knowingly breaking the rules, a lot here were happy to condone him, (he can´t have seen the car), or pointing out that a penalty did apply, however late, and that it was of no consequence whether it actually fit the offense or not. Well? What´s the problem then? A rule was broken and was punished according to the book: a fine. Don´t like it? Tough. And as to why should Alonso should get punished, it´s a team order, not the driver´s order, so there´s no point in it. Two weeks ago I had to bite my tongue and admit that even if i did not like the outcome of the situation, I had to accept that process had been legal tender, and that Hamilton could walk away unscathed. I suggest people here take this one with a stiff upper lip, then.

        As a footnote, I will add that someone at Ferrari has really got to sit down with Alonso and explain exactly how important reputation management is both for him and the team. Alonso really seems to struggle with being PC, and at some point I´ve really admired him for speaking out his mind, but it does not do to shout at the radio “this is ridiculous, guys” because Massa won´t let him pass, especially just after making a stupid mistake after having passed Massa and losing the position by giving up the line. I will not discuss this sense of entitlement, i think a lot of great champions have it, but he should definitely learn to conceal it. He should learn some more of hamilton, a driver I really like despite not supporting him, who most likely in the same situation would have just got off the car and when asked about team orders would calmly deny that he´d been driving an F1 car that weekend.

        Total votes:
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      2. Lilla My says:

        When it comes to LH – I don’t like him as a person (just my impression), but I do like him as a driver. When it comes to the whole SC thing – I was mad that the penalty didn’t change anything, but I swallowed it – he broke the rule and got the penalty. He was lucky it didn’t hurt him though and there was no point in blaming him or McLaren for that (i.e. for being lucky).

        When it comes to Alonso, I agree with you – he is sometimes too big-headed, complaining and asking for a better treatment and someone should sometimes hit him on his head really hard so that he would understand that he’s not the king in F1 (though I still like him), but still – Ferrari doesn’t have to listen to him. It’s Stefano who’s the boss and not Fernando. Every driver would take the adventage if the one in front slowed down the way Massa did. And I don’t think FA really wanted to win the race this way – he looked quite miserable and ashamed on the podium. I actually feel sorry for both of the drivers (for various reasons) and I’m really mad at Ferrari management, who I tend to blame for the whole situation.

        Total votes:
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      3. Panya says:

        Couldn’t agree with you more – none of us is perfect. But many here seems to constantly bash Alonso !!!

        Total votes:
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      4. Lilla My says:

        Thank you. It’s good to know that there are more people willing to defend FA on an English site. I honestly think FA is a brilliant driver (and a nice person outside of the track as well) and he wouldn’t be half as good if he was a nice guy (on the track). You simply have to be a bit selfish to be great.

        Total votes:
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    2. J. Singh says:

      Agree with you Amit that the faster and better driver today won. Although I think Alonso could have made more of a fight out it it rather than just two attempts…half-hearted they were not.
      Every team in the pitlane has “team order” but they should not be invoked so early in the season.

      Total votes:
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  36. Nando says:

    With the new rules both cars should be thrown out of the race. Can argue whether the rules are workable or not, but they’ve clearly broke them and should suffer the consequences.

    Ferrari have now given themselves zero chance of winning the constructors championship (crushed Felipe Massa) to give Alonso a slightly increased chance of winning the drivers championship.

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    1. Anil says:

      I don’t get comments like these at all as every team uses team orders :/

      People are just making this out to be bigger than it is because it’s Ferrari.

      Total votes:
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      1. JR says:

        No they don’t. That’s the point. It’s clear that Ferrari don’t understand the meaning of sportsmanship: they didn’t when MSC was driving for them; don’t now ALO is their man.

        Massa is now no longer a racer — he’s being just deployed as a mobile chicane for all Alonso’s rivals. Is this sport?

        Total votes:
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    2. C says:

      So please. explain to us how they weakened their chances of getting the constructors championship when they got the same number of constructor points as if Massa had gone first, and Alonso second.

      Do you have your own personal Constructors Championship trophy which follows different rules?

      Total votes:
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      1. "for sure" says:

        Not when the WMSC disqualify them. The 100k fine was the maximum the stewards could impose, its not over yet.

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  37. JimmiC says:

    This result is such a slap in the face of every punter who watched this race, or in particular all those Germans sitting in the grandstands. I did like Massa embracing the Barrichello law of subtlety when it came to the ‘pass’.

    I thought Christian Horner’s pious statement that Red Bull would never do something like that a little bit hard to swallow as well…

    Whatever the arguments about Alonso being in a better Championship position than Massa – we’ve still got eight races to go. It’s far too early. Team orders should only apply when one driver has no mathematical chance.

    Total votes:
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    1. Andy says:

      Actually, assuming the claim that Red Bull favors Vettel is correct, one knows that this wouldn’t happen with Red Bull. If it did, the crash in Turkey would not have taken place as Webber had just been told “Vettel is faster, can you confirm you understand this?” 😉

      Total votes:
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    2. senna says:

      i agree on the poor fans on the grandstands. Why do they still go and pay to watch f1 live it’s beyond my understanding. I only watch f1 on tv, and live i watch moto gp, where you still can find, what got you hooked up to f1 when you were a kid.

      Total votes:
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  38. The stewards should, for me, have black flagged both cars. The radio messages were clear and ordering them to swap the places back wouldn’t have achieved very much.

    This is a clear breach of rule 39.1 and the FiA must act.

    This is very different to favouring one driver on strategy: Massa had the best start, was trading fastest laps with Alonso until the switch and was then on more or less the same pace after the switch.

    Total votes:
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  39. AlexD says:

    Yes, a very bad moment for F1. I think we all need to take time, calm down and think about it differently. What would I do if I were the team boss? What options to I have:

    1. Alonso is faster all year. Alonso was faster all weekend and he was the only one that could pick a fight against Vettel. He was 0.5 sec faster then Massa in qualifying and he was faster in the race. What to do? The team asked Massa to let him go and they reduced the gap to Vettel and Hamilton.

    2. Alonso was faster all yes and also this week and this race. Massa did great job at the start and was defending against Alonso. Alonso was clearly faster and would anyway try to overtake, but they could end up like Red Bulls in Turkey or could simply destroy their tyres and let Vettel and Hamilton through. But…if Massa would have stood up, it would have looked fair in public eyes and they F1 fans would have respected Ferrari more.

    Who knows what is going to happen. Alonso is known to destroy the team that he is racing for…let’s see what happens with Ferrari. maybe they are going to win, but we need to see at what cost.

    Total votes:
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  40. splidge says:

    The FIA have to act with something this blatant. The action can be against Ferrari or repealing the regulation about team orders – but they have to do something. It’s pointless having a rule that no-one obeys.

    Total votes:
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  41. Formula Zero says:

    We all know what we are all going to talk about for a long time, Massa letting Alonso through!!! Anybody would have the same based on the championship position. Alonso deserved the win being the fastest driver in the entire weekend. However, Massa is the best driver of the race by being the most gracious driver of the lot. Ferrari owes him a lot more than what they gave him. I felt for him more at the press conference. This was the anniversary of his life threatening accident after all. The best way to response to this result will be to be faster than Alonso in the qualifying as well as in the race.

    In Australia commentators were talking about Ferrari getting penalised. In my view, (so is the BBC commentators’) it is impossible to penalise Ferrari for letting Alonso through because it was not a direct team order on the radio, neither did the drivers admit to any team order in the post race press conference. The incident was no different to what Massa had to do in 2007 to let Kimi through, no different to what Red Bull had done by giving Vettel the front wing. So, any penalty will be absurd. What I don’t like is that both driver had lied to the entire world by saying ‘I don’t know what happened’ or ‘he just passed me’. Now that means I will have to tell young children that it is okay to lie to escape penalty. As a born Ferrari fan I think it’s a crying shame.

    Anyway, my driver of the day is ‘Filipe Massa’ (for an outstanding comeback and leading most of the race) and the biggest looser is ‘Sebastian Vettel’ (for concentrating on Alonso and Webber too much & leaving the entire track wide open for Massa to take the lead). At the end, it could’ve been the best race of the season, but Alonso/Massa incident made it a ‘not so bad race’. In the end I have to agree with Martin Brundle, ‘Ferrari winning the German Grand Prix is a great result for F1 overall’.

    Total votes:
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    1. Rebecca says:

      How exactly do you come to the conclusion that Alonso was fastest driver all weekend? Ok, he was quick in practice, Q1 and Q2 which don’t matter, but he didn’t put the car on pole position, and he couldn’t take the lead of the race on merit. Not deserving of the win.

      Is this how it’s going to be from now on. Whenever Alonso comes up behind Massa, Massa will have to move over? How can Alonso fans really accept that he is deserving of a championship in those circumstances?

      Total votes:
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  42. J. Potocki says:

    As much as I dislike team orders and would prefer to watch the team
    mates battle it out, I believe that Ferrari took the right decision. Alonso was noticeably
    faster than Massa and why risk either a collision or using up tires/fuel with Vettel being not that far behind them.

    Total votes:
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  43. Koala Karl says:

    Of course there were no team orders.
    Alonso was clearly faster through that corner
    on that lap…..
    And mass was clearly slower through that corner
    on that lap………

    Total votes:
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    1. Andy says:

      It happened on the straight you peanut

      Total votes:
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      1. Koala Karl says:

        Hey Andy I know
        that was my sarcasm all the way through.

        I think the whole thing stinks..
        They were both capable of winning and the tragedy is that we rememeber the race for the wrong reasons now

        Its ok to call me peanut as i dont think the sarcasm was obvious enough!!

        Lets have F1 back – no politics no games just good racing…

        Total votes:
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      2. Andy says:

        haha. Yeah fair one!! I must have been so furious about the whole thing that i didnt twig your sarcasm!! You’re welcome to insult me back!! Call me any kind of nut you like!!:)

        Total votes:
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  44. Ian says:

    I expect to see racing, not synchronised swimming.

    Total votes:
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    1. Nathan says:

      Exactly. The fact that Alonso was faster means nothing. This is motor sport. If you want to win you race for it. Better to crash trying to win rather than manipulating the result; at least you can hold your head high knowing you were racing.

      Total votes:
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  45. rogerramjet says:

    Embarrassing for F1. Nothing more to say really.

    Total votes:
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  46. Calum says:

    The Ferrari order made perfect sense and I’d expact the same from all the other championship contending teams.

    I’d agree with DC – the ‘no orders’ rule should be sprapped.

    Total votes:
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    1. Stewart says:

      I agree as well F1 is a team sport and as such team orders should be allowed, however the rule is there for a reason and there should be a fine or removal of championship points for ferrari for breaking it, as simple as that.

      I much prefer seeing two team mates that are given equal machinery and are allowed to race each other like Hamilton and Button.

      It does not matter if the team orders were the right thing to do or not as it was a disappointing end to the grand prix, and we missed seeing a fight for first to the chequered flag.

      Total votes:
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    2. Andrew Myers says:

      Ahh the old “F1 is a team sport” argument.

      If this is the case, why not scrap the driver’s championship all together and just have a constructors championship?

      I say either do that, or (preferrably!) LET THEM RACE.

      Total votes:
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      1. Calum says:

        Hey I like the wheel to wheel inter team racing as much as the next guy but there are a couple of points here:

        1. Teams spend hundreds of millions in getting a result, it’s only fair that they be allowed to maximise their chances

        2. The most distasteful element (for me) in Sundays race was the apparent denials coming from Ferrari, this really treated the audience like idiots.

        I have a suggestion.

        Why not have every team issue a declared driver policy after qualifying, eg. 1. Free to race, 2. Racing under orders depending on track position.

        There’s obviously the PR element from being able to say your drivers are free to race and should a team break their declared policy then an instant points deduction would apply prividing disincentive to do so.

        My main thought is that there will always be team orders, banning them makes no difference as you could just manipulate things in the pits or via some other less blatant way. At least if teams declared their intentions up front then the audience wouldn’t feel so conned as the situation would be mire transparent.

        It should also be noted that the drivers championship is actually in a more excitingbpositiin because of the order.

        Total votes:
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  47. Nik James says:

    James, in the fans forum, I submitted a question saying why have a ban on team orders but then do it anyway subversively. How I wish the forum with the Ferrari PR guy was tomorrow.
    2 key points though:
    1) either have the rule or don’t. Please stop treating the fans like idiots but at the same time asking us for £350 plus for tickets!
    2) I believe there is enough evidence for the FIA to investigate and act on this. The big question is will they. A key test of Todt’s FIA leadership which so far has been impeccable.

    Total votes:
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  48. InternetF1Fan says:

    Disgusting by Ferrari. And the funny thing was a couple of weeks back they were the ones complaining about races being manipulated.

    Rob clearly was forced to tell Massa to move over. Hopefully he will leave Ferrari for a better team.

    Ferrari have always been are still are a bunch of cheating liars.

    Total votes:
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  49. Feb says:

    Deja vu.. Ferrari is the team that caused a regulation about team orders 8 years ago, and here today, they do the same thing..

    It’s a conflict of interest: Ferrari or Driver? Digging more, i believe it’s the assumption by team management that Fernando will bring more points in the end, but it’s unfair, so it may cost them a reputation, it’s against regulations, so -i hope- both cars may be disqualified from this race or just swapped, and for the audience, it just ruined the race. They should definitely not have interfered.

    Besides, as well as I can understand Massa’s frustration, I can never understand Domenicali’s move after the podium ceremony. Why such a forced attempt? Why pretend?
    Though, Massa is the most patient driver I’ve seen. I can’t even imagine a Fernando Alonso in the shoes of Massa..

    Total votes:
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  50. Pierre says:

    James,
    Are FIA or stewarts yet investigating? If yes, what does Ferrari risk and could both cars be excluded from the race?
    Rules are rules, whatever anybody thinks about them, they are what they are, the same for everybody and so should be respected.
    After 2002, I never thought Ferrari would do it again… and such a visible way! At least in Brazil 2007 (last race of the championship) they did it a proper way…

    Total votes:
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  51. JohnBt says:

    Very disappointed with Ferrari obvious team orders. Would have been better if Alonso did it himself. Sense Ferrari were afraid if both were taken out. Lesson from Red Bull?

    It’s not over. FIA will intervene.

    Await news.

    Total votes:
    0

  52. MassaFan says:

    This is an absolute joke.

    I consider myself a Ferrari fan but today’s behaviour was disgusting, they treated Massa like a piece of dog dirt on the pavement.

    Even Kimi never got such treatment because they were always allowed to fight until mathematically impossible not to win it, hence Kimi not supporting Massa’s title challenge a few years back in the same way.

    They might have won it otherwise but you cannot deny someone a chance if they still have it, no matter how remote.

    I was really hoping that Massa would just ignore the team but, sad to say, it didn’t happen.

    Will they try this again and humiliate him even more in future races? Only time will tell.

    btw if you agree with me, please check out my Facebook page on this:
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Felipe-Massa-is-the-true-winner-of-the-German-GP-2010/141490462536449

    Total votes:
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    1. J. Singh says:

      I believe Massa will come out stronger. In 2007 he was slower than Kimi but I think leeting Kimi through in the final race made him more resolute and in 2008 he routed Kimi.
      I expect Massa to be the stronger driver after the summer break this year.

      Total votes:
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  53. James Punt says:

    James, What are the sanctions for breaking the no team orders rule?

    Total votes:
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    1. Harriet and Blah Blah Nyborg says:

      I think I can answer that. For Ferrari it’s a $100,000 slap on the wrist. That about amounts to a weekend’s catering bill for them!

      Total votes:
      0

  54. Heartworm says:

    Shocking, Alonso is a fantastic driver, but the team shouldn’t give him the win in such a way.

    The rules are in place now, obey them.

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  55. Pete Schnabel says:

    This is gonna really light things up everywhere (just check out the tweets section!!!), but when it’s all said and done, Ferrari did the correct thing.
    It may make all the difference down the road.
    Glad it didn’t turn out to be a scenario like in Turkey where one teammate lost all points and the leader ended up losing a ton of points when he dropped form first to third!
    Not easy, but necessary.

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    1. Zobra Wambleska says:

      All they had to do to avoid a Turkey situation was to have Alonso hold station. The team would still get a 1-2. There was no reason for the team to issue this kind of order. Unfortunately cheating is in the Ferrari DNA, they’ve always operated this way.

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      1. Pete Schnabel says:

        Sure there was a reason. What reason you might ask? Simple: Alonso’s still in the hunt! He gained valuable points today.

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      2. Carlos Marques says:

        “All they had to do to avoid a Turkey situation was to have Alonso hold station.“

        Funny enough, that would have been a team order too…

        The only thing Ferrair was allowed to do (according to the law) was to do nothing and watch the 2 cars race each other on the TV like all of us- does that make any sense at all…

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  56. Toby says:

    Would Stefan Domenicali have been responsible for this call or someone above him, that is, that Alonso is the preferred driver from this point forward, before the race weekend even started? I got the impression that “team orders” would not be a part of his management style as it was during the Todt years. As noted in the article, such a thing hasn’t happened previously with the Alonso/Massa pairing.

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  57. Patrick McLaughlin says:

    Leaves a very bad taste.

    Yes, Alonso has been the better driver all season and has the more likely chance of winning the championship but I still think onus is on Fernando to catch and pass Massa.

    Who is to say Alonso would not have caught & passed but we were robbed of a battle. Alonso’s reputation will take another battering after this. He is a world class driver but he does give his critics ample ammunition.

    Ferrari took a pragmatic decision but were not very subtle in delivering it. It was blatant team orders and they contravene the rules. I would not be surprised to see Ferrari disqualified from this race.

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  58. Steve Clark says:

    Shameful display. The FIA has to act. If they don’t then every team can now ‘fix’ the championship. “Mark/Jenson/. . . Sebastian/Lewis is faster than you.” What’s the point on watching if the drivers cannot race? I would happily have watched a fight to the end between Massa and Alonso with Sebastian waiting to drive through the debris. Felipe was off the throttle at a point when he should have had it buried to the floor.

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    1. Galapago555 says:

      “If I back off, is Jenson going to overtake me?
      No, Lewis, he is not…”

      What the hell is this? If not team orders, please explain it to me…

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      1. Steve Clark says:

        You’re right. Wasn’t it great when Jenson didn’t obey them?

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      2. Nick H says:

        Jenson showed that he knew the no team orders rule existed and promptly overtook Lewis.

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      3. James M says:

        The difference there was Jenson DID overtake Lewis! It was confirmed that it was a complete misunderstnading and no orders were given.

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      4. Satish says:

        Fair point, and one that a lot of folks seem blind to! Most folks are acting as if this is the first time thinly veiled team orders have been used in recent times.

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      5. Sean says:

        Galapago555,

        If you are leading the race with a few laps and you are told to slow down, would you want to know what’s the situation and ask your race engineer the same question as well? Definitely you would be concerned about your impending race win wouldn’t you?? And hence you would want to know if your team mate is in the same predicament or if he has the opportunity to challenge you.

        And let’s say the team says that Jenson has got enough fuel, then Hamilton would have to decide if he has to push to the maximum or do just enough to keep him behind, or just let Jenson overtake him.

        His question is just about knowing what’s happening and decide on which course of action to take.

        This is nothing compared to Ferrari’s:

        “Alonso is quicker than you. Can you confirm if you understood that.”

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      6. rafa says:

        How is it not comparable? Aaaah you mean that McLaren staged the team orders better. Fair point, mate!

        Total votes:
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      7. francisco says:

        you are so right!

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  59. m00bie says:

    Ferrari and Alonso cheeted! James can you tell me why has the FIA not penalised them?

    There is a rule about team orders, they are banned, I dont understand what has happened?

    I will not be buying fuel from shell again because that is the only way I know that I can protest against Ferrari!

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    1. david z says:

      Quite agree and I’m not going to buy any more Ferraris!

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      1. Pat says:

        ha.. me either david!

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      2. Carlos Marques says:

        LOL

        Same reason why I stopped buying Red Bull. Oh wait, I never bought any Red Bull because it`s too expensive.

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  60. Amritraj says:

    I have been following Formula 1 since 2006 and since then undoubtedly I was won over by Alonso’s driving and his character outside the car. 2007, 2008 and 2009 I did support him as my favorite driver, for his agrresiving driving style and never give-up attitude. I personally felt that what he was ble to achieve in the adverse conditions of 2007 was very commendable.

    I was pleased to hear that he would be going to Ferrari for 2010, hoping that Ferrari produced a competitive machine.

    This season has been a bit of rollercoaster ride with many drivers winning and mixed fortunes for Alonso and Ferrari.

    But I think today I have been left very disappointed with Ferrari and expecially Fernando. I think he should have fought Massa for the lead, and the team should have allowed it. If Alonso is the driver I thought he was, and the overtaker that he has been in the past, he should have taken Massa on the track fair and square, and not on the radio.

    I was disappointed when something similiar happened in 2008 when Heikki was told to let Hamilton through. Though they weren’t fighting for the win, it was a clearly coded team order as well from McLaren, who didnt want Lewis to lose any time behind his team-mate.

    I don’t think from now on I would be watching the grand prixs and hoping Fernando wins. But to think about it again, there are very few drivers in competitive cars who I think are clean and honourable.

    F1 is too strong a concoction of money, technology and sporting contest to decipher what takes precedence.

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  61. David S says:

    Consult the rule book…simple.
    All telemetry, radio data and comments point to the obvious…team orders.

    If a penalty doesn’t result then the rule book is worthless.

    Ferrari deserve all that should come with this…its nuts and STUPID.

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  62. Superfast says:

    Unfortunately that’s the way it is in modern F1 when things get this close in the championship. And I don’t believe those who say McLaren, Red Bull or Ross Brawn would never do it.

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  63. Scott says:

    DISGUSTING…. Ferrari should be stripped of the race win AND second place…. That was CLEARLY a team order….

    If the FIA do nothing about this now, then the floodgates will be open to “coded” team orders in the future…..

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  64. Jotorrent says:

    it’s disgusting for felipe. I feel sorry for him eventhough I understand FERRARI logic. He has less points than KUBICA and ROSBERG and half the points of HAMILTON. Plus he’s struggling to match ALONSO either in quali or race trim.
    Even ALONSO chances are slim, he lost an engine or 2 at the start of the season and he has 4 drivers to overtake in the standings, he might get some help from RedBull but he and FERRARI must work hard.
    But I still feel sorry for Felipe, it would have been his 1st win since the accident. Then what about team orders banning, could FERRARI be penelised ? And the fact that Santander is a major sponsor does it have an effect ?

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  65. Matthew says:

    Feel sorry for Massa. Not to say he would have won without the team orders, but he must be very delated right now.

    I am sure Christian Horner must be livid right now. He has two drivers taking points off each other while it is clear that Ferrari have a number one driver (and aren’t afraid to order Alonso to the front). Puts even more pressure on Horner to favor Seb.

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    1. Matthew says:

      ‘deflated’

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  66. jon naughton says:

    ferrari cheat once again and get away with it it seems both cars should be disqualified the podium should be vettel hamilton button end of.

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  67. Mike P says:

    From USA 10.25 EDT Well now I guess I won’t be watching a RACE! at noon on Fox today……..

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  68. Warren says:

    Please tell me they will be investigated for this blatant disgrace? I feel so sorry for massa he had a great start and controlled the race from the start, it was only a matter of how FErrari were going to make him move over. This would not happen at Red Bull or Mclaren. Both these teams should be applauded for there even racing policy something Ferrari will never learn

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    1. mtb says:

      Red Bull tried to do something like this at Istanbul Park, but Webber’s engineer did not pass the message on. Horner displayed Dennis-esque levels of hypocrisy after the race.

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    2. Ashley says:

      Are you serious? McLaren did it in turkey this year with a coded ‘save fuel’ message. McLaren also told Heikki to move over for Lewis in the 2008 German GP with a radio message, “Lewis is faster, Heikki!”. Sound familiar? Next thing Heikki allows Lewis through at the hairpin.

      As for Red Bull, well they have been doing it all season and how Christian Horner can stand there and say it would never happen at Red Bull. Well i remember them telling Webber to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up on the crucial lap in turkey, is that not a way of getting Vettel past his teammate?

      However the problem isn’t that they give coded messages, the problem is that team orders are banned. Why ban something that is perfectly acceptable in every team sport i can think of. You play as a team, therefore if one driver is much faster and is in a much better championship position the logical thing is for that driver to be allowed to win. In my opinion the disgrace is a rule that prevents teams from using common sense.

      I have absolutely no issue with team orders in Formula 1, and anyone who uses them. I am a Ferrari fan but thats not the reason, when McLaren did it in Turkey i understood the logic and agreed with it. Obviously i feel sorry for Felipe but he had 45 laps to prove he was fast enough and clearly he wasn’t. I was hoping Ferrari would switch the drivers because it was the correct team decision. Earlier in the season Massa wasn’t told to move(Australia) and Alonso’s race was over because of it. So clearly Alonso wasn’t the preffered driver back then but now he is and no one can deny he deserves that status, hes beaten Felipe comprehensively all season.

      Also i’m disappointed with the fine for Ferrari as i don’t see why they should be punished for using common sense, although perhaps they should have made it more subtle to avoid the kneejerk reaction from the FIA. I hope the WMSC scrap the ‘no team orders’ rule as it would prevent teams from having to lie to the fans.

      Total votes:
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      1. Oliver says:

        I’m sorry Ashley, you seem to have a strange understanding of Formula 1.

        Felipe didn’t have ’45 laps to prove he was fast enough.’ This was not an exam, it was a grand prix and he was leading it.

        The correct statement is ‘Alonso had 45 laps to pass Felipe, and he did not.’ How was Massa ‘clearly’ not fast enough?

        If this was the last grand prix of the year, and Massa had no mathematical chance of winning the title, of course it would be ‘fair’ to give Alonso the place. It is a team sport and he would be helping the team and the team mate out. It probably wouldn’t even need direct team orders to achieve this.

        Even if we accept the fact that Alonso was quicker, he had over 20 laps to prove his speed and pass. Do you doubt he would have passed Massa?

        By the way I’m not a McLaren fan and I do agree with you re: the hypocrisy of judging Ferrari for this incident and ignoring other teams’ orders in the past.

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      2. Ashley says:

        What i’m saying about the 45 laps bit is that is how the decision was made. In my opinion Ferrari were monitoring the relative pace between the two and from the data they had they determined that Alonso was faster and therefore the ‘order’ was given.

        I actually think that Alonso would have attacked late on in the race and who knows whether he would have passed. One possibility that Ferrari wanted to avoid was two fired up drivers taking each other out or battling so hard they allow Vettel to close right in and maybe even get the pair of them.

        With regards to him being clearly not fast enough well thats obvious isn’t it. They wouldn’t have told him to move if he was as fast as Alonso.

        As i said there’d be no issue if the rule wasn’t there. You’d have some angry fans but thats it. With or without the rule though team orders will happen and every fan here knows deep down that their team has done this before but been more subtle about it.

        Btw my understanding of Formula 1 is perfectly fine, i’ve been watching it for many years and therefore i understand team orders are a part of it and always will be. If Alonso was racing anyone but his teammate then yes he would have to overtake them but the situation changes with teammates as the team are always going to ‘manipulate’ the right result for them, which in this case was Alonso 1st, Massa 2nd.

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      3. Syed Hasan says:

        I’m sorry Oliver, it’s you who seem to have strange understanding of F1. What Ashley has written is EXACTLY what I think and i agree 100%. But you need to realise that overtaking is not that easy in F1. When Button couldn’t overtake Schu in Barcelona in an F-Duct powered car, and Schu couldn’t get ahead of Jamie’s STR in Melbourne and when Lion heart fighter Kubica couldn’t get ahead of Rubens in Valencia, how in the world you think you can say ‘If Alonso was faster, why didn’t he overtake Massa on track’. How can you expect two Ferrari’s to overtake so easily when a 1s faster Mclaren couldn’t get ahead of Mercedes at Barcelona. Moreover this was a track where overtaking was rather rare today. I can guarantee that if overtaking was as easy as it is in MotoGP, then FA would have dismantled FM already and the useless team orders furore would have been put to bed. Pls study the whole weekend and whole season. Alonso was nearly half a second quicker than Massa whole weekend and clearly demonstrated in quali as well where he beat him all ends. And Massa only got ahead by the way because Vettel squeezed Alonso too much which in my opinion was slightly unfair. I do expect your reply .. thnx..

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      4. Oliver says:

        Hi Syed, I’m happy to respond to your post.

        Firstly and most importantly my ‘understanding’ is not a delusional one where team orders are not present. Ashley I wasn’t suggesting your knowledge of or interest in Formula 1 is not considerable, merely that your comment re: Massa having to prove his speed to be ‘deserving’ of winning was wrong. Webber didn’t have to lead the British GP for X laps to ‘deserve’ victory, so why should Massa be expected to ‘prove’ himself if he’s leading a race?

        Under the current regulations they are ILLEGAL and you can’t say ‘oh well it’s always going to happen’ any more than you could say ‘Well of course the Red Bull has some ‘interesting’ parts, cars always contain some questionable parts’ Rules is rules.

        I’ve never said overtaking was easy in Formula One, nor should it be. It’s a skill that the sport is supposed to test and reward. Let’s first accept the difference between team orders that ‘hold’ a position (telling one driver not to attack his team mate) and an order that directly changes the result of a race without a genuine overtaking manouvre. One is clearly worse for the fans. I’m not saying a ‘hold’ order ”conserve fuel” is any better ethically, but the actual track position is not changed (merely prevented from possibly changing). If Alonso was in front with Massa challenging, I think you’d find that an order for Massa to ‘conserve fuel’ would not result in quite the same reaction, even if admittedly still a ‘team order’.

        Judging from your comments re: Toro Rosso and Mercedes, you appear to believe that so-called ‘top teams’ have a right to get to the front and if they can’t overtake an allegedly slower car on the track, this is somehow an outrage. I take the view that no matter how quick your car, if you can’t make a pass, you don’t ‘deserve’ the position. Senna/Mansell Monaco 1992?

        You seem to take the view that because Alonso has been quicker than Massa in previous races that it gives him the right to expect Massa to yield a position without challenging. To many people this makes sense, Alonso is a real title contender and Massa should be expected to help him out.. but does this diminish the sport and make a mockery of ‘racing’ unquestionably, yes.

        If this proves to be the case from now on, surely you have to accept the damage to Formula One’s image from such tactics. For the fans, this would require Ferrari to outright put FA as number 1. You can’t expect Ferrari to go around saying ‘no favouritism’ ‘no team orders’ and then say ‘Well FA has a chance to win we have to give him all the help he needs’ as the two are contradictory. I’ve previously supported and liked Alonso in past seasons but this incident suggests two things;

        1. That Alonso/Ferrari management take an arrogant view of the sport, the rules and the fans. To him, ‘how can I be expected to work hard and challenge Felipe, it’s hard to overtake! He must give me the place, it’s mine rightfully as I’m ‘quicker”

        2. Judging by his podium ‘celebration’ he clearly knew what he did was ‘wrong’ (ethically as well as legally). Felipe’s body language said it all. FA then concocted some story about Massa ‘going slowly’ out of Turn 6 having a problem with gears etc.. This assumes a low level of intelligence on the part of the fans, media and wider world. This is what brings the sport into disrepute.

        I’d also take issue with your view that Massa ‘only’ took the lead because Vettel moved to cover Alonso. By this logic, Alonso ‘only’ won in Bahrain because of Vettel’s problem, or that Hamilton ‘only’ won in Turkey because of *that* incident. Perhaps, but you have to be in it and up there in a reliable car to win it, no?

        The presence of team orders in a team sport and a law banning them is clearly silly. Something has to give. This rule has become unworkable and needs urgent revision. I’d like to hear your thoughts on the nature of this revision, i.e. a straight removal of the ban or a revision/modification to it. Perhaps changing position outright will be considered illegal but a ‘hold’ order not so?

        So to summarise my position:
        – The sport cannot simultaneously have a team-centric view which says ‘we need and use team orders to get the best result for our team’ alongside the fan’s/sponsor’s view that says ‘we expect close racing and overtaking, it is our interest in and attendance at grand prix that the sponsors see as the benefit of handing over large sums of money to the teams to go racing.’ The sponsors don’t do this in the understanding that, ‘occasionally a bit of a fiddle and robbing the fans of a good race is necessary.’
        – The current ban has patently not stopped the use of team orders, and is now not likely to in future. The rule needs to be changed ASAP.
        – Teams cannot say ‘this always happens’ and expect fans to put up and shut up. Without fans and sponsors F1 would still be in the last century.
        – The incident at Hockenheim, not being necessarily worse than previous incidents, does harm to the value of ‘motor racing’ and the reputation of F1.
        – Fans shouldn’t say they have ‘no problem’ with teams breaching the rules. It gives the impression that ‘rules are there to be broken’ and fosters a cynical, negative atmosphere around the sport. A better and more reasonable argument is that 39.1 is a bad law and doesn’t stop the actions it is supposed to, and should be amended.

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  69. D. says:

    It was most definitely a team order, and I absolutely have no problem with it. Alonso was the fastest of them all throughout the weekend. He was within 1 sec of Massa for most of the early stages, then slowed down for a few laps (smart move to not stress the tires under an almost full tank) and then a bot later, within 7-8 laps, he closed the gap to Massa from 3.4 sec to 0.6 sec. Had the team order not been given, he would almost surely have had tried to overtake Massa and would have probably done it. At that point in the race he was at least 6-7 tenths quicker.

    What I don’t understand is why did the pass not take place at the pitstop. Alonso was about 1 sec behind Massa just before the pitstop. He could have easily jumped Massa there.

    Regardless, after what happened between Webber and Vettel in Turkey, Ferrari are completely justified in not wanting to risk a similar disaster, especially since Alonso and Massa have not been on the best of terms. With all of Massa’s poor results this year, I think it is very likely that his contract extension indeed includes a “driver #2 status” clause.

    We now have a very interesting championship, with 5 drivers in the hunt. If Ferrari can win again in Hungary, the summer break will be really, really interesting in terms of the development race.

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  70. Brunetto Numero uno says:

    Such contexts, and actions will produce a lot of hypocrites. I think it goes without saying that you let pass the one with the most points. Irvine mastered this very professionally. Is this fair? Is this right? This is not just a sport, this is big bussiness. If you do it the way RB are doing it, you do not become world champion. They will miss the World championship again!

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  71. Prakhar M. says:

    The FIA better take action or F1 will lose all of its credibility as a legitimate sport.

    Total votes:
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    1. AlexD says:

      It is not sport, it is business….it is about money and any means are good. How people do not get it? Do you think that other teams, drivers are fair? Not one bit. Ferrari did break the rule…but this is how it is. I do not like it, but I saw similar cases this year, starting with Red Bull – several times!

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  72. Kedar says:

    This single incident ruined what was a great intriguing race which Ferrari would have won 1-2 by Merit. The German commentators on RTL also suggested “Vettel is faster than you” which was a lighter way of summing things up!

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    1. Amritraj says:

      I think Vettel stuffed it at the start. And 1 thing I don’t like about Vettel is his inclination to drive into other drivers in trying to intmidate them, not fearing contact.

      He did it in China with Hamilton in the pits. Did it in Turkey with Webber (we all know how that ended up). Did it with Alonso in Cananda at the start. Did it again with Alonso here.

      Someone needs to tell that kid that he is going overboard with his chopping moves.

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  73. Peter says:

    I don`t want team orders with Ferrari, but I also want Button to attack Hamilton and not just walking along hand in hand. They are fighting for the WC a few points separating them. I would like to see British press questining McLaren as well sometimes not just other teams.

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  74. Rodrigo says:

    Teams discuss improving the show, they create a overtaking working group, they tweak the rules… but nothing harms the sport and the show most than this kind of situation. A GP winner embarassed to celebrate on the podium, the mechanics barely singing along the italian anthem. It is sad to see, it makes me dont want to watch races anymore. Ferrari wants more money from FOM, but I think the sport would be better without them. They lie about the marlboro sponsorship, they about team orders.

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  75. Nick Hipkin says:

    James, Massa wasnt really struggling on the hard compound like some suggest, he was setting fastest laps and still had pace at the end. Im just very suprised that the stewards arent even investigating, even a blind person could see that was team orders which unlike 2002 is against the rules. Ferrari obviously got nervous earlier in the race when they were battling and bottled it

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    1. James Allen says:

      Initially he struggled

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      1. Lex says:

        He picked up the Pace, he was just as quick as Alonso. Look at the FIA lap times, sector times, speed trap.

        Red shows Massa is faster,
        Black indicates the ‘overtake’

        http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TYJrB8ZJQ8A/TEyQoSAxZeI/AAAAAAAANW8/to6Csdngj_c/s1600/hockenheim.jpg

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  76. Carl Hall says:

    Such a shame another race has to end this way- The FIA has to act, at least investigate this blatent infringement. Such a bad taste in the mouth!

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  77. Steve says:

    Appalling. Ferrari should be disqualified from the race so it never happens again. A hollow victory for Alonso. I don’t now how he can look at himself in the mirror. Much worse than anything Red Bull have done.

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  78. Jotorrent says:

    In order to be a 1/10th quicker in a race a RedBull has to be 5/10th quicker in qualies ! Sunday will always feel bitter for them.

    McLaren went for straight speed over lap speed, they forgot that in order to overtake you’ve got to lap quicker than the guy ahead safe for the 1st couple laps

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  79. Matt_2745 says:

    What’s worse than the switch now is the way that Ferrari are treating the public with disdain. Do they really think that the public are stupid/blind? Embarrassing stuff.

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  80. casey says:

    Sad. Agree with EJ.

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  81. Arioch says:

    The Alonso-Massa manoeuvre has reminded me the 2008 German GP in this circuit. Kovalainen did the same with Hamilton. I don’t remember any controversy (like some sites are saying) after that.

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    1. AlexD says:

      exactly the same thing, identical.

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      1. F1 says:

        Save fuel = is faster than you = team order

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  82. Lionel says:

    I do fera for Massa now.. I hope the team does not ask him to start crashing into walls so his team mate should pick up wins.. James do you think the rules should be transalated into Italian so this lot should understand them?… starting with “Filming Days”?

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  83. Merry says:

    Most pathetic team ever.

    Ban them for the rest of the season.

    I will now throw away my Ferrari merchandise, no joke.

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    1. Merry says:

      To add: this is the team that accused FIA of ‘manipulating the race’. Well, they showed FIA how to properly manipulate a race.

      I mean, I am just speechless, I could not believe it when I saw it.

      I watched live how Rubens let Schumi pass at A1 ring and this is exactly the same feeling.

      If the FIA does not disqualify both Ferraris, I am done with F1.

      Total votes:
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    2. AlexD says:

      2008 Kova/Hamilton….remember anything?

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  84. shanker says:

    i think redbull domination end

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  85. Luke Potter says:

    I’m sure I won’t be the only one to post that this is completely ridiculous – Ferrari have blatantly broken the regulations that forbid team orders and should now pay for it.

    At the very least, I suggest swapping Alonso and Massa in the results and taking all Ferrari’s constructors championship points from this race away. The FIA have a great opportunity here to deal with this issue once and for all and to show everyone (not that anyone but Ferrari needs to be shown) that manipulation of the results is not allowed.

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  86. SparkyJ23 says:

    What is going to be lost in the storm over the Ferrari R
    rule breaking is yet AGAIN Vettel loses positions by trying t drive a rival across the track.

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    1. Merry says:

      You mean Webber losing 2 places to slower cars and not being able to follow them?

      ‘not bad for a 2nd driver eh mate?’

      Total votes:
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      1. Nathan says:

        Err, he lost a spot to Button because the team foolishly brought him in too early for his stop, then he was following very closely (under 1 second) until he was told not to due to an engine issue. He did lose a place to Hamilton though. I’m a fan of Webbo but his first lap is always poor.

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  87. Volkan ARDA says:

    Though it was not fun to watch, it was the correct decision as Alonso is in the championship frame now. If he wins again in Budapest, things will be really interesting. Massa is lost in the points anyway….
    If it wasn’t for the stupid blockage of Vettel, it might have been Alonso 1st-Vettel 2nd after the first corner. It was Vettel’s race to lose and he did lose it anyway…..
    This is probably going to be the most wide open championship we’ve ever seen!!! I just can’t wait for the upcoming grands prix…. :)

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  88. Thalasa says:

    There are a couple of things I don’t understand:

    1.- Why teams cannot give orders. Aren’t they a TEAM?

    2.- Given the fact that orders are forbiden, why teams don’t code orders in a different way? For example they could arrange code messages before hand like: – “Keep pushing, Ferrari is doing a great job.” Meaning: allow your team mate through.
    Or simply openly talking before the race about the different possibilities and giving instructions about how to proceed.

    Is that so difficult?

    I’m happy Alonso is back (and Felipe as well), but I didn’t enjoy this victory the same.

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  89. Sam B says:

    I feel for Massa. If Alonso was that much faster (which he was), surely he could’ve found a way past eventually.

    James, will the FIA be looking into this? Also, please give any updates on Red Bull’s flexing wings.

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  90. iain mcgregor says:

    Book ’em Danno, murder one. Blatant team orders, sorry Rob you’re a brilliant race engineer but a rubbish actor

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  91. "for sure" says:

    So the spoilt Spaniard gets the race gift wrapped. I hope the FIA disqualify Alonso, and fine Ferrari heavily. They have cheated every fan who pays to watch this so called sport. If bookmakers have any sense they will withhold payment on Alonso’s ‘win’. No one can be in any doubt that Ferrari have broken the rules, and of all the Ferrari people I listened to, only Rob Smedley made a half plausible attempt to pretend nothing had happened. Every other spokesman was pathetic. Fragile Fred just can’t stay away from controversy. Alonso’s claims that he was entitled to the win because he had been the quickest all weekend was the most incredulous moment of all and clearly shows his displaced sense of entitlement.

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  92. Harvey Yates says:

    If Ferrari had used fuel that was banned or had used tyres which were fractionally oversized when weight was put on them then would there be this dispute?

    Whether rules are poor is not the point. They are the rules. They were brought in after a remarkable response from the fans, one that remains unique, following a previous incident of race-fixing.

    This is a test of the FIA, the biggest since Todt took over.

    From what Ted Kravitz said on the BBC Forum we can see what the press reports will be like tomorrow. Dreadful press coverage does no one in the sport any favours.

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    1. James Allen says:

      Ironic for Todt, really

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      1. Bill Johnson says:

        I wasn’ thinking Jean made the rule, I was thinking he was the reason for it, therefore, he may not want to enforce it terribly much.

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  93. Spencer says:

    Disgusting!!!! Not only Massa, but us race fans were “Robbed” This could have been an epic finish to a race with Vettel catching. In jump Ferrari and spoil it. Outragous!!

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  94. graham says:

    Should team orders be banned? Can they be effectively policed? Does a ban only reward those shrewd enough to mask it? How does this effect gambling? Does F1 shoot itself in the foot with the gambling public? Does F1 shoot itself in the foot with the non-gambling public? And finally if there is a ban, what SHOULD the penalty be? (not what is the present penalty)

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  95. murray says:

    If someone likes to bet on the races, and they put money on Felipe, someone just robbed them of an honest wager. Shabby, shabby, shabby.

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  96. Ron says:

    Why is Charlie Whiting no jumping all over this?

    This was clear a violation of the team order rule, that anyone had ever witnessed.

    Do the FIA ever do anything right?

    Massa was robbed in plain daylight.

    Absolutely disgusting and empty win for the cheating Alonso…

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  97. Formula Zero says:

    I just read Horner’s comments about Ferrari’s actions. He pointed out that Stewards should take a look at that. We all know what happened in the German Grand Prix. But I think Horner has to look his own team before pointing out others. In Red Bull team Mark Webber is clearly given the number 2 tag behind Sebastian Vettel. I wonder who gives Horner the right to comment on number one or number 2 driver!!!

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    1. Phil says:

      Prefering on driver over another is not illegal. Manipulating a race result is.

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  98. er,go says:

    good race for ferrari, from the start. team orders? what a surprise! vettel showed his immaturity too, again. great racing all the way down the field all the way through the race. great stuff.

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  99. Sebee says:

    I’ve been around for a while and know it all makes sense. But this fixed result crap rubs me the wrong way everytime I see it.

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  100. Ted the Mechanic says:

    Realistically Massa had no chance of winning the Drivers Title. And now we know, no chance politically…

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    1. Ted the Mechanic says:

      Thanks to no chance Domenicali.

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  101. Jon B says:

    This is just horrid. Fernando is just proving again and again that he is such a bad driver that he can’t mount a championship challenge without a slow teammate. Fisi was never competition, then he tried to blackmail Ron into giving him #1 treatment over Lewis. The year after he/they whoever had Piquet jr crash to give Alonso a win.

    Alonso should be banned from competing in F1 just for his involvement in crashgate alone.

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    1. G says:

      I know this is extremely delayed, but I’m going to comment anyway.

      Fernando wasn’t blackmailing Ron to get number one treatment (and he has said frequently he just wanted equal treatment, however the two sides of the story are both very different, who knows who’s telling the truth?) he was blackmailing him to get OUT of the Mclaren team on HIS terms. By that stage, he’d already decided to leave. No really, look it up. Not justifying him trying to blackmail Ron, I’m just saying.

      And crashgate? He was hardly the one who orchestrated it. Yes, he took a questionable win, but dont think that any other driver in his position wouldn’t have. He’s no saint, but he’s hardly the worst there.

      Alonso is such a bad driver that he “can’t mount a championship challenge without a slow teammate”? Mounting a championship challenge at all (and winning twice, i might add) definitely implies that he is more than a competent driver.

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  102. Guio Oblepias says:

    I’m a devoted Ferrari fan and I was desperate for Alonso to win the race. I was frustrated that Massa got ahead of him early on, but I was confident that Alonso was faster and that he could work his way past later in the race. putting team orders into the equation made for a hollow win. this will be another black mark on Ferrari’s reputation… it’ll be hard to get past this, let alone forget about it. just look at the way people refer to Austria ’02 every time something about team orders comes up. personally, I don’t know if I can put up with them much longer if they continue to act this way…

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  103. Fausto Cunha says:

    Worst race of the year if it´s gone be like this i hope Ferrari does´t win again.
    Massa almost stopped to let Alonso pass, what a joke!!
    Why are teams rules banned and then things like this happend, everybody saw it.
    There are people watching the race hoping for a fight for the lead and then a radio message decides everything.
    I know it was in the teams best interest that Alonso win but what about the show, the spectators, the sport.
    I could use the three week break to forget this but there´s probably more to come next week.
    I preferer to watch to Red Bulls fighting for the lead and ending both out of the race.
    This year as been good but today i didn´t like it.
    I like Stefano Domenicalli his very happy and friendly but today he let me down, maybe it was Santander president that took that decision.
    A lot of drama on Hungary the last years, let´s hope for the best, let´s hope for a great race with clean and enjoyable fights.

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  104. Linda Granger says:

    Ferrari cheated. The FIA should investigate and fine the team as a clear breach of the rules was made. It ruined the race for the fans. Massa bet him fair and square on the track on the day. It doesn’t matter that Alonso was faster in qualifying. If the FIA don’t react to this then they are biased to Ferrari and brings into question the whole sport and what other things are fixed and what other cheating goes on. The whole of F1 is in question now.

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  105. Kev says:

    A much needed win for Ferrari and a 1-2 makes it even better. Team orders, well it was blatant but unavoidable. Had Massa not defended so aggressively when Alonso made his move it would have ended well for all.

    But he chose to defend his position and Ferrari had no choice but to order Massa to give the position to Alonso. I for one fully back this move. It is highly obvious that this season is going to be very close and every point scored is going to make a difference. The cars are all equally matched and there aren’t much overtaking opportunities between the top cars.

    So it was a good move from Ferrari to ask Massa let Alonso take his position and with it an additional 7 points.

    Sorry Massa but you are number 2 in Ferrari this season. Hoping for you to come strong in the next season.

    And for those who are saying you were robbed of a fight for the lead, well you had your scene when Alonso tried passing Massa on lap21.

    Hopefully this will spur Massa to improve his performance and get some good results in the coming races which should be good for Ferrari.

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    1. Luffer says:

      Yeah we did have it on lap 21 and Massa won it, so what right does Alonso have to the victory?

      Regarding team orders, the rules are explicit on this matter. If you can’t play by the rules you don’t deserve to be part of the sport!

      In what way does having a hard earned victory taken away from you by a spoilt, petulant Alonso spur you on to improve your performance? It would utterly demoralise me and I would be unwilling to help the team out in future when they show no consideration to me!

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      1. Kev says:

        Mate, the victory for Massa was not written on the wall. Alonso had more pace than Massa and would have certainly tried another move again. We might have seen a repeat of Turkey here.

        Why go that further? Alonso had the inside line and Massa was outside on the track during lap21. Alonso simply could have pushed Massa off the track and gained the position. Similar to what Vettel tried to do to Alonso during the start of the race.

        IMO you can defend aggressively against other racers from a different team but you ought to be careful with your own team-mate.

        Also this is the first time Massa was asked to let Alonso pass, whereas in Malaysia and other races Alonso stayed behind Massa even though he had superior pace and also defended him from the attack of other racers.

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      2. BA says:

        “whereas in Malaysia and other races Alonso stayed behind Massa even though he had superior pace and also defended him from the attack of other racers”

        And Alonso defended Massa from other drivers on clipping his rear tyre too… oh wait :)

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      3. Langue D'Oc says:

        If Ferrari wanted to make the pass they could and should have done it at the pit stops. That they didn’t shows (again) the lack of calibre in the team’s upper management.

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    2. tharris19 says:

      I beg to differ on the equal car (Ferrari). Fred’s car was at least .2 quicker than Mass’s, If they were equal then Massa would have maintain a 2 to 3 second lead following the the first stint. Besides, Fred wouldn’t stand for a team mate with an equal car. Ask Mclaren and Renault.

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  106. Charlie B says:

    I’ll just start this off by saying that Ferrari did breach the regulations, but they can’t get a penalty.

    Every decision made in a race affects the outcome, so the rule doesn’t work.

    Also decisions like the one McLaren made in Turkey telling the drivers not to fight are just as bad as what happened today. People just see it differently, which is wrong.

    I agree that team orders shouldn’t be allowed and Ferrari did break a rule, but the rule doesn’t work and team orders will always be around in one form or another. So as much as we don’t like it, it can’t be stopped unless every team has one driver, which will never happen.

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  107. Nastre says:

    There have been other instances of team-orders in the last few years. This isn’t the last of them.

    One has to remember that this is a team sport. If the two drivers don’t work together in the interests of the team, then the idea of a team is void.

    I feel for Massa and I think one can see Alonso does too by his lack of jubilation at winning.

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  108. Tim says:

    Everyone will forget what MartinW said about JB and Hamy….there was not one driver picked because they were still too close in points…Ferrari made the correct choice FA is substantially ahead in points.

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  109. dilligaf says:

    It’s funny how history repeats itself, and with the same team. My heart goes out to Massa, considering it was 12 months ago he suffered that dreadful accident. What Ferrari did was absolutely disgusting, and they should be rep-remanded. Their disgraceful actions have given the sport a black eye yet again.

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  110. Gil Dogon says:

    I do not know why it is Ferrari that always seems to play this “controversial” game, but I was quite disgusted with the blatant manipulation of the race results. Massa should have rightly won this GP, but now he is reduced to a clear number 2. It does not do much to bolster Alonso’s image in my eyes too. I do not know what the rule about team order says, but this kind of ‘coding’ does not mean anything, it is blatantly against the rule. What does the FIA/stewards have to say about this ?

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  111. ajag says:

    There is a single long term solution to this never ending story. While there is a drivers championship awarded which is valued higher then that of the team by the public, there will be team orders in this way. Therefore get rid of the drivers crown and make F1 a real team sport…

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  112. Dimitris says:

    unjust… but that’s the sport, that’s life, that’s reality.

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  113. Jamie says:

    That was a shameful act from Ferrari!and for Fernando to accept that gift speaks volumes of the man’s character!

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  114. Anthony says:

    Alonso is a spoilt little brat that just cries till he gets his own way. Whats the point in winning if you cheated to get there.

    Ferrari should be ashamed.

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    1. francisco says:

      like Hamilton germany 2008?

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  115. Jason Jackson says:

    Gutted that the sport I love is now even harder to sell to my mates…..infact i won’t even bother anymore. I use the word sport……that wasn’t sport. Who’d pay hard earned money to watch that manipulation? I recall a certain spaniard saying the ‘Fans’ were robbed of a race in Valencia…….not half as much as those in Germany today my friend

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    1. James Allen says:

      Your first point is a good one

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    2. hesus says:

      Totally agree, people keep asking me why do you like this whole F1? And after day like this I have not much to say. I know that there is only one WDC and team orders are part of this “show” but deep inside I feel it is wrong. In my moto-crippled country there is a KIA CEED CUP – not a big deal but I watch it with much greater interest than F1. Guys in there are like harts chasing rabbit – pure racing. No big names, TV deals, fancy feathers stick up the a…. Formula 1 is first only as far as money is concerned. From the sporting point of view is much worse. If people responsible for this sport won’t take actions (and they won’t – new Concorde 2013 will be only about the money) in 5 years F1 will be marginal series with only group of enthusiasts watching.

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  116. Eric says:

    Absolutely shocking from Ferrari. I am disgusted by this result. A great win by Felipe Massa was on the cards only to have been denied by team orders. Ferrari should receive no points from this race nor should the drivers. This would surely put a stop to team orders in the future.

    I mean seriously, “Fernando is faster Felipe. Acknowledge this message.” One lap later and Massa lets him through. How obvious does it have to be?! Clearly the use of banned team orders by Ferrari. Being faster is one thing – it could come from taking more out of the tyres – but getting past is another thing entirely. In no way did Alonso deserve the win.

    Realistically, Alonso isn’t going to win this championship so all Ferrari have done is bring the sport into disrepute.

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  117. Tanya says:

    Alonso must be disqualified

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  118. vivek shetty says:

    Absolutely shameful!!!

    And Fernando talks of races being manipulated and of “Saying sorry to the crowds as they were cheated”.

    What will he say today?

    And of course Ferrari let the world know that not much has change since Austria 2002.

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  119. arush says:

    kimi raikkonen won the 2007 title in the same way and a year later he let massa through in shanghai to facilitate him in the championship,kovalainen let through hamilton many times during his mclaren days…..why the issue of team orders only come up when such thing happens…James,why doesn’t the FIA have concrete rules against team orders?

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    1. Tommy K. says:

      the circumstances are different in every case. however, i think that team orders must be re-established. If they don’t, then they should ban the 2 car teams! It’s a team sport, and in team sports the manager decides who plays and who’s not…Definitely, the rules must be changed!

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    2. Andy says:

      When the other driver is completely out from the fight for the WDC (like in both cases with Kimi and Massa), it is understandable that there is a preference from the team on in which order the drivers should greet the flag. Moreover, at least in 2007, the situation was handled much better, by calling Felipe to pit a couple of laps early so that Kimi was able to pass him by making a couple of very fast laps. At no point did Massa have to lift his foot from the gas.

      Here, Massa is just a mere win away from Alonso’s total points with almost half a season left. This is not the time to start deciding races by team orders. If you are worried that the intra-team fight will danger the 1-2 finish, then you tell the one who is driving 2nd that he should restrain himself from making too risky moves on his team mate. Even though technically a “team order”, it is, in my opinion, completely ok.

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      1. rafa says:

        please!Claiming that Massa has any opportunities in this championship is ludicrous! there are team orders all around but you just bother to hear the ones that interest you. maybe Ferrari should adhere to the list of rules that nobody else bothers to comply with: team orders, SC, not racing in the pit lane, not changing course seven times when defending position, probably then you lot would finally be happy. What really is hilarious is seeing you masters of logic defend your driver of choice against all evidence and later trash the competition for similar if not identical offenses.

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  120. F1Fan says:

    Rather blatant example of team orders. Massa’s comments in the post race interview say it all…

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  121. Alen says:

    It was so embarrassing to hear Alonso lying in front of the cameras. I have no idea what his feelings were like, but I felt bad for the man who lied badly. I was like – oh, mu God! I can’t believe the way he explained what had happened. This things shouldn’t be allowed to happen!!!

    What should I say to my son? Look son, this is your role model… he lied and got away with it…

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    1. Olivier says:

      … indeed, remember Liegate last year? Lewis, McLaren and forgot-his-name got severely punished for withholding information after the race and lying in front of the cameras.

      I hope Ferrari and Alonso will get a similar fate.

      The biggest looser is the FIA though. The best they could do is punish team Alonso by stripping today’s points in the constructer’s championship.

      Shame, it COULD HAVE BEEN a great day for Massa and Ferrari, one year after his freak accident!

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  122. Scuderia@China says:

    It’s an obvious team order, which is totally unnecessary at this stage of the Championship. If Ferrari still wants a motivated Massa for the rest of the season, they shouldn’t have done it. The sport is getting increasingly political. I really miss Kimi and uncomplicated, pure blood, speed demon like him!

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    1. Trixie says:

      And I feel this is all the more reason why Kimi won’t be returning to F1.
      But to be honest, what goes around, comes around. Remember back to China 2008 when superfast Kimi had to virtually come to a standstill in order to let Massa pass. Back then, I vividly recall the commentators saying surely Ferrari should ask Kimi to let Massa pass sooner than later. If that wasn’t blatant call for team orders even by race commentators, then I think F1 audiences are eluding themselves about the nature of the “sport”.
      I am not saying I agree with such behaviour, but what I don’t understand is why teams don’t try to maximise both their drivers’ points until which time it is mathematically impossible for one of the drivers to achieve the WDC. I mean, heavens forbid, but what if something happens to Alonso like Massa was unlucky in Hungary last year? After all motor racing is a dangerous sport, then Ferrari might rue this call.
      I feel it is likely that Alonso being the me-ME-Me kind of guy, who’s been most vocal about still being championship contender, perhaps has a clause in his contract to be No.1 if he is to fulfill Ferrari’s expectation of him to achieve the glory days of the Schumi era.

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  123. Mikeray says:

    Even as a McLaren supporter (Turkey – ‘Button will not overtake you’), I’d say – well, nothing new for the sport – expect that team orders are very wrong.

    Expecting a stern warning or a maximum of loss of constructor points for Ferrari.

    Now this is how you ‘manipulate’ a race, Alonso-style.

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  124. Matt says:

    Think that the root cause of the team order problem is that the drivers championship is worth more to the team than the constructors. Where you have teams, like Williams, who have historically valued the constructors more then you don’t get the problem. Not sure how a better balance could be found though.

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  125. PaulL says:

    I know there’s going to be a torrent of anger against Ferrari and I do have compassion for Massa, but I do think these considerations are relevant.

    1. Alonso had been clearly faster than Massa all weekend, 1/2 second faster in qualifying and evidently faster in the race. Alonso even seemed to drop back 3 seconds and close in on Massa at will.
    2. Alonso had to brave it on the narrow inside line in the run up to turn 1 to beat Vettel, whereas Massa perhaps fortunately received a clear road.
    3. Alonso already had a likely disadvantage of starting on the dirty side compared to both Vettel and Massa.

    I actually feel that the team orders was a necessary disservice to Alonso because, in my view, it was he that deserved the win based on his driving performance – not because someone handed it to him.

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    1. Nick Hipkin says:

      The difference is that you dont get given a race based on how you perform in practice, you have to earn it over the actual grand prix race.

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  126. Kenny says:

    So much for manipulation at Red Bull. Webber would never had let Vettel through. Empty win did Alonso.

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  127. Shingi Mtezo says:

    Shame on Ferrari, look who’s manipulating races now!!!!

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  128. Ron Neale says:

    The team orders cheating that occurred in today’s German Grand Prix, made watching the “”RACE?”” a total waste of two hours of viewers time.
    I will be writing to the Director General of the BBC to suggest that unless some serious action is taken against the cheaters in future they (the BBC) just broadcast a summary of F1 race on one of their less watched channels. It is my license money that is being wasted on this pretend racing farce.
    If Alonso had the faster car then he should have overtaken the other team car and given the car driven by Massa a chance to show his skill in defending the position in the slower car.
    German Grand Prix a total waste of two hours. Observation in passing a Spanish driver wins a race heavily sponsored by a Spanish Bank, no that cannot be relevant!

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    1. Stu says:

      Personally I think you’re reading a touch too much into this with your last paragraph.

      It still isn’t right though, no-one likes a cheat.

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  129. It looks like Ferrari is back to the old Schumi/Barrichelo days. Long live Red Bull.

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  130. Clay says:

    Hi James, I was wondering why you do the post quali and race interviews at some races but not at all of them. Who’s the guy who conducts them when you don’t

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    1. James Allen says:

      David Croft. I do most of the races, but not all

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      1. ChrisS says:

        It’s a shame you missed that one! Lucky Crofty.

        On the other hand, it must be difficult to pitch it right in situations like that, where the fans and media are expecting you to give voice to the outrage and yet you need to maintain a working relationship with the drivers?

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      2. James Allen says:

        It’s interesting that rather than steam in on the team orders angle, Crofty gave Alonso a blank canvas to tell the story and he was caught out by it

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      3. David Smith says:

        I bet you wished that you could have done that one today.

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  131. DK says:

    James, since we all know this is blatant team orders, can FIA take any action to penalize Ferrari?

    What the Ferrari’s drivers said in the post race press conference was so funny. Alonso said he don’t know why Massa slowed down, and Massa just lost of words when he was asked of the incident….pitiful!!

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  132. Dawn says:

    Never left a comment before, but have decided to today. James, with the work you’ve been doing with FOTA about what the fans want, the teams must realise this isn’t it. I would suggest that most fans would feel cheated of a great, tight battle for 1st place from two very closely matched cars and talented drivers – as Felipe gave us a glimpse of earlier in the race when he defended against Fernando so well.

    It’s very sad for Felipe that, one year on from his accident in Hungary, his team didn’t allow him to show his talent and fight for his position on track – with as must courage as he fought for his life one year ago, and as he fought to gain fitness to enable his return to F1.

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  133. cjf says:

    I was disappointed to see the team orders today as I was anticipating a good fight between Felipe and Fernando when they reached the next group of backmarkers. However, as Schumacher alluded to we see these orders occuring in more subtle ways weekly, for example who is to say Mclaren could not have got Jenson out ahead of Lewis instead of just behind him in the pit stops.

    As a poster in another forum pointed out, Lewis won this very race two years ago as a result of Heikki letting him through (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epI6u6uA8hM) and we didn’t see this sort of furore then.

    The team order was a disapointment but the partisan bias instead of honest even handed evaluation is just as frustrating.

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    1. Kev says:

      Brilliant. I was searching for this video and you got it here. Thanks mate.

      I think the furore is because Massa didn’t have the race-craft to do it in style like Kovi. Just see the video again, you will never take a position as easy as that and the execution was perfect.

      Massa you need to learn a lot.

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      1. Robert says:

        Kovalainen knew Hamilton was coming through whether he let him or not and he wasn’t even leading the race. Completely different. Hamilton overtook a number of cars to win, not just Heikki.

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      2. rafa says:

        ridiculous point: where there team orders? yes? nuff said.

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      3. Rebecca says:

        Erm, I think Massa made it obvious on purpose to make the point that he was letting Alonso through and Alonso didn’t earn it.

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    2. DC says:

      I agree that Heikki letting Lewis through in 2008 helped him win the race, but he did have to hunt down Massa and Piquet and pass them to get the win…so he had to work for it…

      However, as a McLaren fan I wish there were no team orders that day. Lewis had the speed to take Heikki fair and square and that’s what I wanted to see. McLaren made a mistake not pitting under the safety car in that race, so they were on the back foot with Lewis…but that is no excuse.

      Today was worse I believe for Massa because he was leading on Merit and Alonso wasn’t that much faster…

      either way I don’t want to see team orders. It may have been going on from the start of the sport but it doesn’t make it right.

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      1. Kev says:

        The point is Kovi left Hamilton pass through without a fuss and at that did it perfectly.

        Coming to your logic that Lewis had to pass more cars for the win even after Kovi let him through; suppose say at the end of the season, Alonso needs one point to win the WDC and he is 11th. But he has come from behind passing 9 cars and has Massa in 10th place.

        So as per your logic if Massa let Alonso through without a fight, it is not a big crime because they weren’t fighting for the lead. It is just for the 10th position and a solitary point, is it?

        The point here is that Alonso did fight for the lead and almost took it. But Massa decided to fight for it when it would have been sensible to leave the place to your team-mate who has now the better chance of winning the WDC after the HALF-WAY point of the season.

        It is time to decide who is Number 1 and who is Number 2 in Ferrari. And it is fairly easy, Alonso is the lead-driver!

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      2. DC says:

        Race wins are more important no matter what stage of the championship you’re in. nobody remembers how many 10th places somebody gets do they?

        giving up a win is a much bigger deal. but regardless of that point… i don’t like it at any stage and as Lewis hunted and passed two other drivers in the example given, my point was i believe he was fast enough to take Heikki without the assist. I wasn’t any happier about that pass than i was today.

        I don’t think Alonso was fast enough or maybe not good enough today to do the same with Massa.

        So it is always a crime to me…but giving up a win is even worse.

        No more team mate assisted passing please. every driver should fight for every place. it should be considered the norm. that’s where the entertainment is for goodness sake!

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  134. Virgopunk says:

    Ferrari have certainly got some front. How on earth they can say that this was not a case of team orders is beyond my belief. Although, it is totally the Ferrari way. I feel truly sorry for Massa. I think we may hear more on this from the FIA in the next couple of hours! Could Vettel be promoted to P1!?

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  135. Ivan says:

    As a Ferrari fan, I’m disappointed to see this sort of thing rear its ugly head. It does make sense for Alonso to win but the way it’s done leaves a rather sour note for F1 in general. Massa deserved to win fair and square, though the assist came from Vettel at the start.

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  136. Paprika says:

    Was letting Massa defend his position what they should have done? In my oppinion, most likely scenario would have led to low or no points for Ferrari… Dunno, but it was surely done with no style at all…

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  137. Spenny says:

    Very foolish, because the FIA cannot be seen to let this one go. Risking a 1 2 for a handful of extra points for Alonso – so busy looking at the championship detail they forget about the risk of being excluded.

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  138. Ed says:

    Disgraceful from Ferrari. I am ashamed to be a fan of the team today.

    Sure Fernando was slightly faster, and is ahead in the standings (but only by 12 points in the old system, which is nothing with so long to go), but I physically can not understand how Ferrari made this decision on sporting and ethical grounds, not to mention the obvious media reaction.

    I am devastated for Felipe. One year on from his crash, what a story it would have been. He needed a confidence boost like this to lift his driving, and this should have been it.

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  139. Hans says:

    Well… the way Ferrari look at it is probably that Smedley (I don’t think it was him?) did not give a team order. He told Massa that Alonso was faster and he asked if Massa understood that message. We all know what that means but had he told Massa to move over because Alonso had to pass it would have been a clear team order.

    If in the way Ferrari did today, a team order is not allowed, next time in the same situation, they’ll tell Massa a dangerous purple easter bunny has been spotted near the track and he is to slow down a bit.
    Of course Massa could have run a curve wide to camouflage it all a bit but in the end the result is the same.

    So I think it’s time to rethink the rules and accept that at a certain situation team orders can influence the outcome of a race as long as it is within one team and not teams helping each other.

    I think

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  140. Tornada says:

    Alonso and Ferrari management are RIDICULOUS! And Felipe should take a lesson how to behave from Mark Webber…

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  141. Michael says:

    Massa.. nothing left to say, dont waste another day, just you and him tonight, everything won’t be okay. If it’s alright with you then its alright with him, Felipe take this time and forget that memory. Do not remember! Do not remember do not remember! what alonso did! Dont bring it back!

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  142. Martin says:

    I´m so disgusted I don´t know what to say about this man and the team he´s driving for.

    If the FIA doesn´t come down severely on this then the sport will undoubtely be regarded as a coreographed farce and not the pinnacle of motor sport.

    Schumacher was revolting in his ways when he was driving for Ferrari and Alonso is very close to that at the moment. Yes, he was faster than Massa, but why didn´t he just drive past him then?

    Again, a digusting and sickening day for F1.

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  143. chetz says:

    Massa must be missing Kimi today.

    he never asked Felipe to be “magnanimous” with eight races to go 😛

    Total votes:
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    1. James Allen says:

      No, but he did move over for Felipe

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      1. Greg says:

        Massa moved over for him in Brazil 2007.
        Both these race are nothing like this, they were at the end of the season with only 1 driver with a strong chance to win.

        Alonso doesnt have that, he makes far too many mistakes.

        Massa, just remember, what goes around comes around.

        Total votes:
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      2. Andy says:

        I agree completely. Besides, in 2007 the “execution” was much better, by having Massa pit a couple of laps earlier so that Kimi was able to pull a couple of very fast laps to pass him. What really annoys me now is that Felipe’s claim for WDC this season before this race was not that much worse than Fernandos, a mere wins worth of points. If I didn’t feel so bad for Felipe, I’d wish he became 2nd in WDC in the end, say behind Vettel, losing by 6 points. However, that would be too cruel for Felipe.

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      3. Syed Hasan says:

        So you mean to say that team orders are allowed at the end of the season, you have no issue. Or if they are not so blatant, they should be allowed. Oh! First decide whether they should be allowed or banned

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      4. Jason C says:

        I never understand the ‘end of the season’ agrument. With effectively only one driver with the chance to win this year (especially with the troubles Massa has been having with his tyres), points in the middle of the season count just as much as points in the last race. Those 7 extra points could make the difference Between Ferrari winning and someone else.

        To penalise Ferrari is pretty hypocritical: there have been loads of ‘driver decisions’ to move over since 2002 and no-one has been penalised.

        For the record, I really dislike team orders like this – they leave a bad taste in the mouth after the race, and you could see how guilty Alsonso felt by his body language.

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  144. FLINTSTER says:

    I don’t think I can support Ferrari anymore!

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  145. k miles says:

    THIS WAS A SCANDAL, A FARCE, A CON AND THE FANS WERE CHEATED!!! james allen i dont know how you can “rate” alonso as the best! He was only a wins worth of points ahead of massa and so many points still to be won! Alonso is known for cheating with singapore and the mass damper! he and Ferrari should be disqualified and BANNED!!!

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  146. Andy says:

    This was a disgrace, after the team orders I stopped watching and decided to clean the house. I wish Ferrari’s engines blow in all the remaining races (at least Alonso’s, would be fitting if Massa won all the remaining races and claim the WDC).

    James, how did Alonso “fall foul of the stewards” in the two previous GPs? In Valencia stewards did nothing to Alonso, while Lewis got very lucky. In Silverstone Alonso and Ferrari have only themselves to blame, the stewards did what they were supposed to when rules are broken.

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  147. Mark says:

    I didn’t realise the A1 Ring was back on the calander! Would be interesting if it’s disputed with Jean Todt at the reigns. Massa was almost killed 12 months ago to the day, would’ve been nice to see him win after nailing them both ninto turn 1.

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  148. Richard says:

    So if it is so clear to everyone that “Team Orders” were applied by Ferrari, why have they not been penalised? It makes a mockery of what is meant to be a competitive event.

    Total votes:
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  149. Andy C says:

    As much as I keep hearing how team orders is and always has been part of f1, it doesn’t mean I don’t dislike it intensely.

    Felippe was clearly completely cheesed off (rather than swearing on your blog James 😉 in the drivers press conference.

    I don’t debate fernando has the better chance at the wdc, but to do it so blatantly it makes a mockery of the millions of fans who tune in.

    Whether it is mclaren, Ferrari or redbull it absolutely stinks.

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  150. Dan E, Kent says:

    It was fascinating to see Domenicali trying to patch things together after the trophy presentation.

    James, do you think that this race, like many others, has actually played into McLaren’s hands? For a team with a slower package, their damage limitation this season has been remarkable.

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    1. James Allen says:

      Well they won’t want too many more like this, 23 secs behind Ferrari at the end

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  151. Yasin says:

    I feel cheated by that ‘pass’. It was a good race up until then.

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  152. Alberto Dietz says:

    Felipe was the victim of blatant coercion from within the team. Cui bono? The same one who should have had his superlicense taken away for life in Spygate in which case there would have been no Crashgate.

    Total votes:
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  153. Andy C says:

    Maybe now we know what flav was doing at ferrari last week ! :-)

    if Di montezemelo sent dominicale onto the start finish straight to deploy a stinger to burst felippes tyres it would have been less blatant wouldn’t it.

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  154. Sergio says:

    C’mon englsh machinery. Ferrari did really bad. Instead to put “program 3 fuelsaving” they said “Fernando is faster than you”, and Massa has no the cold temper as Button or even the poor Kovy last year.

    Today we saw Massa is the Alonso’s worst enemy alongside the english press & FIA (Todt – Whiting). Really powerful enemies.

    Total votes:
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  155. POPPY says:

    Eddie Jordon is right.
    Massa was robbed.
    With so many races yet to be run this season,
    who is to say Massa had any less chance than Alonso in the 2010 championship.
    How can Ferrari expect to get away with this blatant flouting of the rules.
    Of course Schumacher finds no problem with the decision,
    he was always, every bit the same kind of irresponsible driver that Alonso is.
    What’s the point in the trophy if not urned honourably?
    What’s happened to this gentleman’s sport?
    Money rules over manners ?
    A very poor day for formula one.
    Massa, together with all the genuine fans of these fixtures has been betrayed.
    It’s clear,
    Massa won,
    Allonso came second.
    Shame on Ferrari.
    Shame on the regulatory bodies if they permit this disgraceful decision to stand
    Thank God for the Jenson Button’s of Formula one.
    yours.
    A very hurt fan.

    Total votes:
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    1. POPPY says:

      see my comment above
      POPPY.

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  156. Rishen says:

    WOW… Blatant

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  157. Deepan says:

    Although I think that Ferrari did make a mess of handling the scenario, what they did was perfectly logical from a championship perspective. Red bull made the decision to remove the front wing from Webber and give it to Vettel because he was ahead in the championship and was looking faster for the weekend(these were Horner’s explanation), If that is not team orders and is legal, why is this illegal?

    Total votes:
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  158. GomerPile says:

    Really not happy about this.

    Ferrari have clearly favoured Alonso explicitly – there was no difference in the constructor points they would have won by not doing this, and they weren’t letting a ‘faster’ driver challenge someone further up the road.

    It would have been an excellent good news story for Felipe – who deserved this win – to get it one year on from his near fatal crash.
    Positive publicity spirals into negativity again …

    On a side-note – in Schumacher’s post race interview, he says F1 is all about winning the championship. It’s not – it’s entertainment. I strongly feel actions like those performed by Ferrari today damage the sport, and the FIA really need to sort it out.

    I think they need to disqualify Ferrari from the results. It’s a real shame, as they deserved a 1-2 with the improvements they had made, but I think only cutting the constructor points sends the wrong message (specifically to prima-donna drivers).

    Total votes:
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  159. Tom says:

    It’s a disgrace if you ask me.

    There are still over 200 points up for grabs in this championship. It doesn’t matter if Alonso was faster than Massa (which he wasn’t for much of the race anyway), if he can’t get past without the help of team orders then he’s no champion. F1 is about racing. I’m so bored of hearing Fernando whining to the team over the radio almost every race. I used to be a fan but he’s become ridiculously petulant if things aren’t going his way.

    Well done to Felipe for a great drive and showing class after being robbed and not bad-mouthing the team.

    Total votes:
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  160. Ol'Grandpa says:

    Brazil: The only country in the world where if you ask drivers politely they will let you pass.

    Total votes:
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    1. Joao says:

      Sadly true!

      I’m from Brazil and always saw Massa as a much more agressive driver than Barrichello. Until now.

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  161. Khan says:

    There is more to it than meets the eyes. May be ferrari want a stand off against FIA. There is some political agenda, may be.

    Total votes:
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  162. Baktru says:

    This was a disgrace. Ferrari as a team may be the ‘legend’ of F1 but the way they do their business is appalling. I was expecting a ‘Cars x and y’ under investigation any moment and it didn’t even happen… Damn.

    Total votes:
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  163. MichaelC says:

    Rules are rules. Ferrari should be punished as this was a clear breach of the regulations. But to exclude the team punishes Massa which seems unfair. Nevertheless it was a team problem so the whole team should be punished. If that means the loss of a 1-2 finish then maybe the point of team orders destroying the spectacle of a good fight on track will have been made ?

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  164. Luffer says:

    Alonso won nothing in my opinion. What happened today was a disgrace to F1. They bought the whole sport into disrepute.

    Ferrari should be utterly ashamed of the way they acted today. Not to mention with the way they handled the media after the race with their smug attitude and blatant lies.

    The FIA need to handle this properly and impose serious penalties. Not only did it deprive Massa of a win and fans the chance to watch a good race. But what about the people who had placed a bet on Massa to win? This is pure race fixing in its most despicable form, and if that isn’t worthy of a ban I don’t know what is!

    The rules could not be any clearer on the issue and they choice to ignore the rules. Not for the first time either!

    We have already seen this season that both Red Bull and McLaren let there drivers fight fairly for wins and positions. Not Ferrari though!

    Many people say F1 needs Ferrari. I couldn’t disagree more, F1 doesn’t need cheats!

    Total votes:
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  165. Caz says:

    Ferrari cheated Massa out of first place and under no circumstances should this result be allowed to stand. Ferrari and Alonso should be penalised. They do not deserve this win.

    Total votes:
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  166. CH1UNDA says:

    I think the two big stories from Germany is the Ferrari team orders and McLaren’s lack of pace. The British outfit was painfully off the pace – one wonders whether they would have faired better if they had stuck with their non blown diffuser configuration – hopefully McLaren doesn’t go through a mid season struggle similar to Brawn last year when the Championship winning team made a development that took it backwards into the clutches of Red Bull instead of putting it farther ahead.

    Of course that is just the first time the team is running the new upgrade. But unlike in previous races, McLaren was noticeably lacking the pace and not taking the fight up to the teams ahead. The upgrade seams to have robbed the British team its phenomenal pace in the race.

    As for Ferrari’s blatant team orders, you get the feeling that Alonso’s allegations a few weeks ago that FIA was manipulating races will not put the stewards in a most favourable mood for their case. However Ferrari played the situation very meticulously in the race. First Alonso fell 3.5 seconds behind and then started reeling in Massa to prove their statement that he was faster than the Brazilian. Then he set about setting the fastest laps just to prove the point as was accurately picked out by Martin Brundle. However one wonders – if everybody else in the world knows Ferrari broke the rule, how can FIA have a problem enforcing it?

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  167. A.K. says:

    So what’s the point of having the rule against team orders when team orders still happen?

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  168. Nick says:

    Disgusted with this result. They should be disqualified as it was so blatant and unnecessary!

    Total votes:
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  169. David says:

    Well, I turned off after the team order was given – what was the point in watching any more?

    I hope Ferrari get penalised for this, the rules are clear, as was this breach. If Alonso was fastre then he should have used his talent to get past on the track, instead of having the team order Massa out of the way.

    Very disappointed.

    Total votes:
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  170. Mike from Medellin, Colombia says:

    Good on Rob Smedley for so blatantly letting the world know that this was a sham team order.

    “Fernando is faster than YOU”
    “Did you understand that MESSAGE?”
    “Good Lad, SORRY”

    Come on Lewis, go ahead and give Alonso a good thrashing like you did throughout 2007. Show up this charlatan for who is really is.

    Alonso is not the real deal.

    Total votes:
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    1. AlexD says:

      Mike from Medellin, let’s talk honestly….about Lewis. But really, let’s be honest…ok? British GP 2008 – Hamilton passes Kovalainen…sorry, better say Kovalainen parks the car to let Hamilton go and then drives again. Remember? How different it is?

      Total votes:
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      1. Mike from Medellin, Colombia says:

        AlexD – you are right, but I was talking about Lewis Hamilton as a true competitor to Alonso.

        Alonso fears Hamilton. He owes his lack of success over the last 3 years down the arrival of Lewis Hamilton.

        Put the new mature Lewis Hamilton in the same car as Alonso again….and he’ll make mincemeat of Fernando.

        Total votes:
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      2. AlexD says:

        Let him deal with Button first:-)

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    2. PAD says:

      I would agree that in part it was the tone that Rob Smedley said the words and the words he used that indicated it was a team order that he did not want to pass on. If he had said in his normal tone of voice “Alonso is faster than you and Vettel will catch the pair of you. At some point Fernando will most likely have another go at trying to pass you, probably best if you don’t try and fight him. Sorry Mate” then everyone would have understood the situation and no one would have been upset with Massa letting FA past.

      I’m not blaming Rob Smedley in any way. I think what Ferrari did was acceptable just badly managed.

      Total votes:
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  171. joesat78 says:

    The same story unfolds now in Ferrari (earlier in McLaren 2007). The only difference here is Ferrari is having a 1 & 2 driver whereas in McLaren, either they were basically allowed to fight on track or Hamilton never followed team orders.
    Ferrari should be disqualified for this race. Alonso, or Mr.X never thinks twice to lie… what a slime. At least, he should have said “Pass”.

    Total votes:
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  172. tony presser says:

    Why making rules? If the FIA does not take any action Formula 1 is a joke.At Ferrari they seem to think that the fans are believing their lies!

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  173. Mike from Medellin, Colombia says:

    Ferrari only have themselves to blame for this.

    The latins took over and have led the team downwards. They now find themselves of having to put themselves in the hands of one of the sport’s most unscrupulous characters.

    And some of you still have doubt’s over Alonso’s involvement in Singapore 2008?

    Total votes:
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    1. Andy C says:

      I usually agree with you mike, but let’s not forget Ross and jean had team orders with Ferrari. Today just stinks though doesn’t it.

      I was glad to hear rob smedley and felippe be absolutely clear with their tone. They were gutted.

      Total votes:
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  174. sammy says:

    I really don’t understand what the big problem is. Ok, Felipe let Alonso pass but I’ve never heard any teamorder…
    Alonso was faster and that’s what’s communicated to Massa (ofcourse, we know that it was a teamorder but it has never been said literally to let Alonso pass. And even if Massa backed of on purpuse (what he did) Ferrari never told massa to let Alonso through…
    If they take away the win or disqualify Ferrari it would be a disaster.

    Total votes:
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    1. boysie says:

      Exactly. In the end, it was Massa’s choice to lift off – no one forced him.

      Those people complaining about this behaviour should remember this has happened and will continue to do so in every race by every team to some extent. It is just rare it was so obvious and in the open.

      Total votes:
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      1. Langue D'Oc says:

        We don’t know what Massa’s contract says, mind.

        Total votes:
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      2. James H says:

        Ummmmmm – Smedley could not have spelt it out any clearer, Massa made it completely obvious that he was forcibly slowing down, Smedley then said ‘sorry’, he also then said to keep the gap at 3 seconds. If Massa was so much slower, why couldn’t Alonso pass him easily in the first place and how could Massa maintain a 3 seconds gap?

        Then we have the body language when they got out of the car – then we have the press conference – then we have the experienced and seasoned motorsport press asking Alonso ‘if that race ranked up there with Singapore 2008?’.

        Alonso is a spoilt little boy that has a tantrum if things don’t go his way.

        Total votes:
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  175. Banning of team orders is wrong because there will always be team orders whether they are banned or not. It is a team sport and the team should always do what’s best for the team. Drivers can either accept this or leave! If Massa had performed better before now then perhaps this situation would not have arisen.

    Alonso has been consistently faster than Massa virtually all season and was 0.5 seconds faster in Qualy yesterday. He was clearly more comfortable today when following Massa and could stay with him using much less effort than Massa. I believe Alonso backed off to the 3.5 second gap to preserve his tyres and fuel for a late charge and Ferrari would have known this and chose the safer option.

    Crucially, this was not a team order it was simply the team giving Massa the information with which to make his own decision. He made that decision and needs to live with it. It’s not as if Massa was 20 seconds ahead of Alonso or anything, Alonso was within 1 second and could have started to pressure him. After he got past he opened up a 4.5 second gap within 10 laps or so which shows his superiority. Meanwhile Massa was lucky to keep Vettel at bay.

    There was not enough room between Massa and Vettel for Alonso, that is for sure!

    Total votes:
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    1. cjf says:

      This was also how I interpreted the race, Massa certainly wasn’t capable of opening that size gap so quickly and we have seen Alonso employ a similar strategy a couple of times already. I believe as a result he had more fuel than Felipe toward the end and could’ve pushed him hard and as likely as not would’ve beaten him. Bit of a pity we didn’t get to see.

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    2. Zobra Wambleska says:

      I don’t suppose it occurred to you that after the pass Massa was just a little dispirited and dropped off his pace a bit?

      Total votes:
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      1. He is a highly paid, professional racing driver so I would hope not. Surely falling into the clutches of Vettel and losing 2nd place would not help him to feel better! If I was him I would have been highly motivated to stick to Alonso’s gearbox to show that I had the pace. Of course, he couldn’t do that could he!

        Total votes:
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      2. Andy says:

        I remember a certain Ferrari driver who completely lost focus and speed (to the extent that even a Sauber was able to pass him) when he was too upset about a late penalty for another racer. I think he is even more highly paid that Massa. How professional of him, don’t you agree!

        Total votes:
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  176. Lilia says:

    The biggest history in F1 but the smaller sport ethics than anyone. The word “racing” doesn’t seem to be a big part of there philosophy.

    Total votes:
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  177. Spyros says:

    Well… if Red Bull’s PR army were hoping for something to happen, to take the focus away from them, they probably don’t believe their luck!

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  178. Colster says:

    Ferrari should be stripped of constructors points for that ‘race’.

    Total votes:
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    1. Why? They deserved a 1-2 regardless of the order. Surely you can’t deny that!

      Massa made his decision based on the information given to him and his understanding of the championship positions. End of.

      Total votes:
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      1. Rebecca says:

        Wow! You’re rose-tinted specatacles must be soooo dark that you can’t see through them! Are you really so naive to think that it was Massa’s decision to let Alonso through? Are all Alonso fans as stupid as they think Alonso is?

        Total votes:
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  179. John 85 says:

    Its a sad day for formula one, but not as sad as many areas of the media are making it out to be (Eddie jordan?!)

    Yes team orders are banned but if i recall in recent years, a lot of top teams used to say we let our drivers race until the last round of pit stops and then they hold position. Surely thats a team order to the driver behind not to overtake?! I fail to see how that is technically different to the events of today. Sure, today was more high profile and visible, but it no different to telling someone NOT to overtake. Also, what about the ‘2nd’ driver holding people up so the championship leader can build a good lead?! I know they’re are different situations, but they are all derived from the same page!

    I watched the coverage today and as a ferrari fan i was bitterly disappointed with what happened. A 1-2 is a 1-2. yes 7 points gained for alonso, but he had the opportunity to get passed, but he fluffed his lines!

    James, do you think its time team orders were reintroduced or do you think that as long as there is no words which state ‘move over’ then we are ok as we are?!

    Total votes:
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    1. James Allen says:

      I think it’s wrong to have no team orders, but the thing should be the subject of a review. Perhaps a topic for the next Fan Forum?

      Total votes:
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      1. Tommy K. says:

        James, I think that team orders should be reintroduced! It’s a team sport! If not, then every team must have ONE car and not 2 on the grid!

        Total votes:
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      2. I agree James, lets get rid of the “coded messages” and subterfuge and just get back to simple racing. Everyone knows that team orders take place and it is hypocritical for people to criticise Ferrari alone, especially the likes of Christian Horner after ‘Wing-gate’.

        Total votes:
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    2. John 85 says:

      Also forgot to add the example from this season.
      LH – ‘Will jenson pass me?’
      engineer – ‘No’

      How did the team know this? surely thats a team order?

      I think it could well be a subject for the next FF, however if the FIA sticks with what it has done so far this season, they’ll change the rule to make it clearer. wouldnt be the first time thats happened this year!

      Total votes:
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      1. Radoye says:

        …and despite that, Jenson did pass him.

        Some team order LOL!

        Total votes:
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      2. John 85 says:

        yes but jenson should have been instructed not to, or lewis should not have been told that. obviously what was said and what happened was opposite, but my point is that surely that meant tht lewis could relaxing knowing that JB wouldnt pass him. and i agree with tommy k above, team sport, team orders, if not why have more than one car per ‘team’

        Total votes:
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      3. Phil says:

        Indeed he did. Lewis was told to slow down and wanted to know if his team made, just behind him, had been told the same thing. Jenson hadn’t and gave Lewis a fright. Not so much team orders as communication problems.

        Total votes:
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      4. Galbraith says:

        … And then Lewis Hamilton overtook again Jenson Button and won the race…

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  180. Galapago555 says:

    Same circuit, a couple of years ago, different drivers (Lewis and Heikkii)… does any body remember?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epI6u6uA8hM

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    1. James Allen says:

      Good point!

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      1. AlexD says:

        Yes, good point, but somehow only Ferrari is to blame:-)

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      2. John 85 says:

        hmmmm funny that! altho massa could have ‘run wide’ rather than jus not accelerating away, would have looked a bit better!

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  181. pmj says:

    What a shocking result. I think that Ferrari should be punished and Massa should be given the 25 points.

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  182. arush says:

    kimi raikkonen won the 2007 title in the same way and a year later he let massa through in shanghai to facilitate him in the championship,kovalainen let through hamilton many times during his mclaren days…..why the issue of team orders only come up when such thing happens…James,why doesn’t the FIA have concrete rules against team orders?

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    1. I believe it is because it is impossible to police team orders. That’s why, in my opinion, they should be allowed. Make the radio transmissions completely available to the media, as has been done from this weekend I believe, and then at least the viewing public can hear the discussions and orders.

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  183. Howard F says:

    At this stage of the season this did not need to happen. This was a quite blatent team order and showed a complete disregard of the regulations by Ferrari. If they are not punished by the stewards or the FIA is the door not left wide open for any other team to break whatever rule they see fit? What is your opinion James? Also the watching public and race fans who pay alot of money to watch a race were most certainly denied this.Ferrari should be stripped of their championship points for trying to treat the public like idiots and manipulating the race for their own ends.

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  184. Irish con says:

    Just watched the BBC and wanted to know why none of the Brits mentioned the same thing 2 years ago at this very same track between heikki and lewis. Exactly the same thing and he did the same at the French gp. Seriously it’s pathetic and why was there know out cry over Ferrari and Chinese gp in 08 when kimi let massa past. Really is so frustrating how the British public can be influenced by tv guys. It’s happens get over it.

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    1. AlexD says:

      Good point, I keep wondering too. I would really want to look into people’s eyes and play the video from Silverstone 2008…

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      1. Merry says:

        So something happened 2 years ago, therefor Ferrari is allowed to break the rules today?

        Find better excuses to defend this rigging, because it is very weak.

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  185. Richard Mee says:

    No doubt will be a lot of comments on this… It leaves a bad taste, it takes away from the race for the fans. Factoid.
    It’s yet another instance of Ferrari openly breaking a rule they fully know about, and if there is any punishment we’ll see Ferrari yet again claiming they are being victimised and that the world is against them – stop breaking the bloody rules then!
    I for one hope the FIA acts very tough here to dissuade any repeat from any of the leading teams as we close out this otherwise fantastic season. Otherwise rescind the team orders rule immediately as it’s farcical.

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  186. Nick172 says:

    “It’s a shame, not for us because this is racing, but for all the fans who came here to watch a manipulated race. Everything is against us – it seems they allow everything, and the public has seen a race that is not quite real.”

    Fernando Alonso, Valencia, 2010.

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  187. Langue D'Oc says:

    Ferrari are mugs for not making the team orders less apparent. I hope the FIA come down on them like a ton of bricks.

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  188. Russell Parrott says:

    Once again … We all know that the “sport” F1 is “big” business but unless situations like this are clearly stamped out F1 does not have the right to call itself a sport unless … Sport is often defines as “An activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing)” This begs the question in F1 as to “who” is the competitor – the constructor or the driver?

    If we accept the constructor then why is so much emphasis placed on the “pilot” when simply “drones” would do. But in reality there is a “World Drivers Championship” and as Brucie would say “points make prizes” the aspect of “team orders” is completly contrary to the concept of sport. The more that situations such as this occur the less respect the true sport will have. From a constructors view point, you the aim is to win the constructors championship – so what. The constructors do not risk their lives in the way that their drivers do. Winning the constructors adds to the brand value in the same way winning the “Drivers” does for a driver.

    It is totally about time that in F1 this was stamped out. A simple rule change would make the difference. A constructor ONLY gets points for the first car across the line. Drivers get points as normal.

    Any “interference” should result in a loss of constructor points NOT driver points unless a driver benefits then those points must be deducted. I would even suggest a harsher penatlty – start from the back row next GP for the “benefiting” driver.

    Sport is sport business is business and the two do not go hand in hand

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  189. Stuart Brown says:

    Its an insult to everyones intelligence that Ferrari think we can’t see through their lies.

    As I recall it was the fact that McLaren tried to mislead the FIA a couple of years ago that made their punishment so severe, rather than just that the team were in possesion of Ferrari documents.

    I hope Ferrari are given a punishment not only for the team orders, but also for their blatant lies subsequently in deliberately misleading the stewards/FIA.

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  190. Dax says:

    Hi James,
    I enjoyed watching the race but as usual yet another situation between driver not being allowed to race or one being favored over the other.
    This situation should suit Alonso who did not have the same influence at Mclaren. Hope he does not end up like Nelson Piquet Jr, risk life and career just to race along side Alonso. Clearly this should eat at the confidence of a driver still recovering and since his last accident in Hungary. We all know teams are very clever and subtle when communicating with their drivers to deliver orders but todays team radio at the Ferrari team were just to obvious. Also made for a boring race as I was expecting Massa to resist and battle for his position which he did very wll until the team radio….Very disappointing.
    Reading the look on Massa’s face tells a whole story and maybe the positive side is this will help him in contract negotiations should he wish to extend his contract at Ferrari.

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  191. Phil says:

    I must say that Massa is a complete professional and devoted to his team, for coming out and saying that it was all his idea. I hope Ferrari give him a big bonus for his efforts. Can anyone seriously believe him though? There isn’t an F1 driver that hasn’t got a huge ego, and none would voluntarily give away a win to Fernando Alonso, or anyone else for that matter. We’ll se in the future if FA’s extra 7 points was worth the destruction of team morale and co-operation.

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  192. The rules of 2002 were brought to bear due to the fans reactions to team orders, the direvers maybe paid by the teams butt he teams are paid for by the public. It’s a sad day when pundits like David Coulthard can sit and say you will not get rid of this as its the teams who pay the drvers and he forgets as I have said its the public who pay for the teams.

    F1 just continues to shoot itself inthe foot season after season and it’s probably best that we get a neutral for the pundits from now on becuaes if they can see a time when erradication of team orders can be achieved they frankly are part of the problem.

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  193. Jon says:

    Days like this I wonder why I watch this sport (or should I say business/entertainment). If they wanted to be entertainment, at least be like USA sports and get it right.

    If they want it to be business, fine, but be upfront about it and I will not watch.

    Days like today (horrible dull race), and Alonso “passing” for the win. How can anyone in F1 hold a straight face after that? How can Massa or Alonso hold a straight face? It’s a mockery. We don’t wait 2 weeks to see that stuff. At least other sports have 2-3 games per week. Or 1 per week at least.

    Give Danica Patrick a Ferrari or McLaren and some “preferential treatment” and she’d win alot too. Ok, maybe an exaggeration. Give Chandhok or Timo Glock that treatment and they’d seem great too.

    Especially with these awful rules, where the race pace is similar to a spec series and there is little chances to change positions. At least in previous Hockenheim races there was sprint format. Kimi did a good 3 stop in 2006, to overtake Button to get onto the podium. There was a reason to watch.

    What I know about other sports, even other motorsports.. when my drivers/teams win or lose, I don’t question why I watch. It doesn’t taste good, but you just wait until next time. At least you can recognise the others did a better job.

    The only talking point about this race is Ferrari and their tactics. On track action? What on track action?

    Arghh. Once again I have to question why I justify this “hobby” to my friends. Days like today I think they are right.

    At least Ferrari have improved their pace, it spices up the championship. That’s the only positive I can find. The rest is bad bad bad bad bad bad bad.

    I am not happy about Webber’s strategy either. It wasn’t mentioned on the telecast but it was horrible. He was never even given a chance to have a good race. It wouldn’t be such an issue if these regs weren’t so horrible.

    Now more then ever before, teams have the chance to make the race go according to their scripts. The unpredictability and randomness is gone. The “against the script” moments are far less likely then they used to be.

    Forgetable race. Whether Ferrari is stripped for points or not, I don’t really care. The sport is not repaying my interest. After days like today, you wonder why should you care?

    Sorry for the rant, but you get excited, you wait patiently, you watch.. then after 20 laps you wonder why. I am getting really tired of it. 2005-2006 was 1000x better then this. Rewatch the 2006 Hockeheim race, it was a cracker.

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  194. Zhenya says:

    Actually, there were no fastest laps from Massa after lap 28. He was hardly able to make the gap.

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  195. its also spooky the FIA site is down just after the race, they too have buried their heads inthe sand. The site being off line means none of us can lodge a complaint.

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  196. James Barnard says:

    Do you remember Red Bull last year in Turkey telling Vettel “Webber is faster” as a code for not overtaking. Similarly Lewis was under the impression in Turkey this year that the team had given team instructions. It should have been handled better, given the regulations, but Ferrari do not deserve to be so persecuted.

    Ferrari need Alonso to win – he is clearly the faster, more consistent driver, and most likely to mount the title challenge. As much as i like Massa, and dislike Alonso, it was the right decision. A coming together, after two races where they had been very unlucky was NOT an option

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  197. John Player says:

    The “Ferrari thing” is difficult to judge. On the one hand, Massa has always been a little inconsistent and unreliable( that´s why he can´t disobey, no other top team would sign him) . Therefore it is logical to give some instructions to him and not let him wobble on teammates path. After all, Alonso is in a much better position in overall standings and at the moment it is not too late for attack.
    On the other hand, this year, Alonso have effed up many races as well. That is why I don´t think he deserved so convenient treatment.

    For Felipe, it must be demoralising day. Now the team can see the reaction of their driver(which was calm, no hard words from Felipe, quiet teamplayer guy). So in the future the team don´t have to use those shy signals on the radio. “Hop, hop, Felipe!” or “Why are you still leading?” will be used instead.

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  198. Adam 0 says:

    I think everyone is forgetting that whilst 31 points is a lot in ‘old money’ (as Button would call it), it would only take a win and a bit to potentially overhaul that points deficit, with half the season still to go (and a few DNFs perfectly feasible). I don’t think the points difference was enough to justify team orders today.

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  199. James M says:

    I think the fuss over FA’s win is the FIA’s fault. The rule is pointless if you can’t enforce it; Ferrari did the same in 2007 for Raikkonen and no one complained and that affected the championship directly!

    Still, it doesn’t make Alonso look good. His two wins have been inherited. So far he wouldn’t make a worthy champion.

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  200. Matt W says:

    I hope the FIA come down very hard on this like they did with Crash-gate and Spy-gate. This has done a real blow to the credibility of F1 to people on the outside, the casual fans.

    In the post Mosley era F1 has clearly been trying to turn a new cleaner leaf and this has covered it in the same old mud once again.

    Hopefully the Todt regime can come out strongly and show that this sort of thing is no longer acceptable.

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  201. Peter says:

    Ferrari was great up to the moment that Massa missed his throttle, moved three gears, all at once. This is what we need the least in this sport.

    F1 is moving backwards, in particular this team !!

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  202. Stanton says:

    Absolutely shameful – I hope the stewards strip Alonso of the win and Ferrari of all their points. If they don’t then allow team orders and live with the public’s outrage when they feel cheated of a genuine race and decide to stop watching. Although I did laugh when Rob Smedley told Felipe he’d explain what ‘magnanimous’ meant after the race!

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  203. Andyb says:

    Let’s hope that now that Ferrari have been found guilty, that the World Motorsport Council apply a proper sanction. This was cheating and fraud at its most obvious, and should be punished severely.

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  204. Finished says:

    Just a 100K fine by FerrarIA.

    Congratulations on supporting a rigged result everyone involved.

    I am done with F1, scam ‘sport’.

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  205. Flintster says:

    65K fine then! Could have been worse…ha, just sell an extra 430, bargain.

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  206. Ian Blackwell says:

    While the results definitely makes the championship more interesting the return of the ‘dirty ferrari’ team from the schumacher days is not welcome. Surely somebody in Ferrari had the intelligence to make it less obvious – engine preservation, brakes there are so many ‘outs’ available. Isn’t there something in the rulebook that could be used to punish them?

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  207. James Bond says:

    Massa, The Gentleman!!!

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    1. Robert says:

      Too much of a gentleman for his own good. He needs a bit of Aussie attitude

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  208. teresa says:

    why has there been no comment on the fact that this is the second race in a row that Sebastian Vettel has been in pole, & then tried to push the 2nd placed car (on the dirty side) into the pit wall. If Alonso had not been impeded by Sebastian, there is every chance Alonso would have been in the lead at the first corner & Felipi second, and no need for “team orders”. Should the stewards not also investigate Sebastian for dangerous driving.

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    1. Ben says:

      Sebastian didn’t drive dangerously at the start, but he did drive rather amateurishly for someone at his level. Not only by turning right did he unload his left hand rear wheel prolonging his wheelspin but he moved to the slower side of the track and he moved off of the optimum racing line.

      For a driver who started his front running F1 career as the ultimate pole-to-victory winner (or maybe second to Massa) his conversion rate of poles has been abysmal this year. This must surely be a mental issue, rather than a talent one, as obviously this year the weight of expectation upon him is huge:

      Last year he was runner up to a driver with a huge head start and the momentum was with him going in to this season; he was starting the season the best car, a car that has continued to dominate for the first 10 races in terms of outright pace; it his his last opportunity to become the youngest world champion of all time, a accolade that would not only mark his place in F1 history but would also benefit the Red Bull young driver program.

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    2. ScooterMcGee says:

      I couldn’t agree more. If Ferrari hadn’t ruined the race with team orders, Vettel’s terrible start would be the focus of attention.

      It’s becoming all too regular that Vettel tries to run his opponent off the road in order get or maintain a position. I think there should be more scrutinizing of his dangerous driving style.

      Perhaps a warning from the stewards to stop attempting to run his opponent off the track? Should he continue to do so, roll on with the penalties.

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    3. sayitaintso says:

      If you watched the BBC forum, Vettel joined the team (Martin Brundle, EJ, DC and Jake Humprey). A fan posted a question in regards to Vettel trying to push the 2nd placed car (on the dirty side) into the pit wall and Vettel looked bemused when he heard the question.

      But the most interesting story that came out of the forum. was when Christian Horner came on and EJ asked him that “If Redbull had teamorders then Mark Webber would have been told to move over and Vettel would be sitting there (pointing were CH was) with 25 points”. Horners reply was “yes but we don’t operate team orders, we let our drivers race………..”.

      The intersting thing about the question was in a sense EJ asking CH, that is Mark Webber the number 2 driver and CH got caught out and answered YES

      Here is the link

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  209. Dan says:

    If you want team orders to go away, you would have to do the following:

    1. Have the FIA Contract Recognition Board review every driver’s contract to ensure that there is no legal basis for a team to pressurise a driver into moving over.

    2. Have a deadline for driver contracts and driver changes in a team to be finalised. This would create an environment whereby teams would have to stick to the choices they’ve made and would have to support both their drivers. And drivers would not have to fear being sidelined.

    And before anyone says that this is a business and teams should have the right to choose and other arguments against this idea, no driver “suddenly” goes off the boil. These guys are top class and have been doing this for all their lives. They can see out a season at their performance peak ,or close to it.

    3. Force all teams to start the race with a fuel load that will take a car to the end of the race at full pace. In fact ensure that they are carrying more than enough to do so. This is to stop teams from using “fuel saving periods” as cover for misdeeds.

    4. Force teams to provide the same parts for both team member at all races. IF they cannot provide two of the same part, the part does not get used. Like happened in the RB British debacle, what could instead happen is ensure that there are enough parts for everyone, but the driver can still choose what he wants.

    These are some initial thoughts. Feel free to add more.

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    1. Dan says:

      Sorry, an addition:

      5. As pointed out above by John85, “hold station” is another tool used in implicit team orders. To be banned. Race to the finish line.

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  210. colm says:

    Truly shameful. To see Alonso lying so badly in the post race interview was cringe-worthy. What a way to ruin a perfectly good one-two.

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  211. gaspipe6 says:

    I don’t like team orders.

    It’s one more way the “race” can be manipulated such that it’s not really a face any more.

    But it’s obvious that team orders exist, and that Ferrari
    and Red Bull are not going to quit using them.

    It’s time to get rid of the rule which prohibits team orders, and quit pretending this stuff doesn’t happen or that rules will prevent it from happening.

    In any case, I would certainly prefer to see Alonso win this year’s WDC, rather than the youngster who keeps holding up his index finger in such an annoying manner.

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  212. AlexBookoo says:

    “I no longer consider Formula 1 a sport” – Fernando Alonso, Monza 2006.

    It seems he meant it.

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    1. casey says:

      Good one.

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  213. Greg says:

    It would now be very interesting to see what would happen if Massa was to end up leading Alonso in Budapest. Ferrari would be forced to do it again.

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  214. Voyager says:

    Could Ferrari management be arrested by Interpol?

    Whatever – I’m glad I didn’t have a tenner on Massa to win…..

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  215. Darren says:

    I have mixed feelings about this. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on team orders James and on the point I make at the end on pits to car radio.

    Having watched the BBCs red button coverage I think it was DC who raised the following points which I think are very important:

    Team orders have always been a part of f1 and anyone who thinks they dont happen just because they are banned is mad. Totally agree with that. One of them raised the point that like traction control, it is so hard to police whether team orders are happening it would be easier just to make them legal.

    Looking at the situation this afternoon, Alonso is clearly Ferraris best hope of winning the championship, Massa looked revitalised this weekend but Alonso (despite the mistakes and penalties) has been strong most of the season. So I can see totally why Ferrari would want Alonso to win. However its not like the championship is down to the wire yet. I suppose you could say that every race is worth the same the last race is the same as the others and a championship is won over the course of a season not at the last few races.

    Maybe my mentality is not the same as that of an f1 driver but I wouldnt want to win a race knowing the team orchastrated it, I would rather finish a soundly beaten second than a undeserved first, just the same as I would refuse to take a wing from my team mate (having broken my own one). This situation changes if for example the championship is at stake (Massa/Raikkonen in 2007) that is just common sense and I would like to think that in that situation Massa would have thought for himself that giving the win hence championship to Raikkonen was more important than him winning the race. A similar thing happened with Senna & Berger a while back (was it 1991?) where Berger gifted a win to Senna enabling him to close in on the championship. Senna returned the favour afterwards at some point and let Berger win a race. That is real sportsmanship.

    What I am getting to (sorry I realise this comment is getting rather long winded) is that I think the team has far too much say in what the drivers do on the track these days, they are constantly informed on this that and the next, how fast to drive, what lap to come in, how much fuel to save, when to push e.t.c. I have said for a few years now that I think pits to car radio should be banned. Let the drivers think, let them make the calls.

    Discuss

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    1. ajag says:

      BTW, Schumacher let Barichello Win in Indianapolis in 2002 As far As I remember. That is always conviniently Left out when the Story about Team Orders is told….

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  216. Ben says:

    James, as much as I agree with the headline and how everyone knows that is what happened, isn’t the wording libelous? Massa never received any direct instruction to move over. Massa was given a message, which we all know was coded, but without any supporting evidence to demonstrate categorically that means “move over” surely it is just our interpretation?

    Again, I’m not disagreeing with you that that is what it meant but I just wondered how savagely Ferrari’s lawyers will pursue journalists who do report or imply it is a team instruction when they have been very careful to stage manage the situation to ensure the team message is that no instruction was given.

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    1. James Allen says:

      Well Eddie Jordan better get his tin hat on then!!

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      1. Ben says:

        Point taken, although I think EJ always said words to the effect of ‘in my opinion…’ and I don’t think he has many bridges left to burn in terms of upsetting the F1 establishment whereas this site has great connections and relationships with the sport (as witnessed by the coming together at the F1 Forum)

        Given the situation is getting more messy for Ferrari with the referral to the WMSC I was just worried that Ferrari may become less media friendly and spin this as a witch hunt against them.

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    2. Fausto Cunha says:

      The media should tell the true and that´s what´s happening.
      Ferrari created a lie today and that´s the true.
      They continued to lie after the race and Alonso lied to as all live at the press conference after the race.

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      1. Tim says:

        …and they have the truth????

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  217. Jimchik says:

    Ferrari is as Ferrari does, it seems. But do you think that Ferrari was right? It seemed from your tone that you may support Ferrari’s decision.

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  218. Don says:

    Shame on them, Ferrari have obviously not learned their lesson. I hope they have their results from this race removed!

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  219. Dhaval Panchal says:

    I think that the $100,000 fine is ridiculous. It should be far more severe than that!

    This is pocket money to a team such as Ferrari, (an amount that could be payed off in 4 RACING LAPS of Kimi Raikkonnen’s salary last year) and feel they deserve a much harsher penalty for a clear breach of the rules.

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  220. Ben bailey says:

    One word: manipulated! Right or wrong team orders r banned. No one other than the arrogant ferrari think it was anything other than team orders. Worse than austria as it is now banned and ferrari have the front to say nothing happened. Strip them of win and three race ban for bringing sport into disreput. Ej is spot on. I doubt fia will do anything though… Appaling.

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  221. Bill Nuttall says:

    The FIA need to either get rid of this rule or hand Ferrari a ban. What’s the point having a rule if you don’t enforce it?
    A £100,000 fine is utterly irrelevant to a company as rich as the Scuderia.

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  222. Wingers says:

    Aaaaah Nooooo, not the World Council Again!
    F1 is bringing itself into disrepute here, no need for Ferrari to do it!
    Alonso has been faster all year long, they have slipped back through ill fortune, they needed this win, and they need their strongest driver leading the charge. Alonso was faster, and by some margin in Quali…, I would have preferred he just race Massa and pass, but the team understandably prefer not risking a Red Bull Turkey move…
    In 2002, Barrichello had DOMINATED the A1 race, and had to let Schumacher reel in a big advantage, that was messy… This was hardly messy, it made sense, it made complete business and sports sense. Its a stupid rule, you could go back to When Massa let Kimi through in 07, for Kimi to win the race in Brazil no less! People will argue, that was for the championship… well, so, whats the difference, this is for the championship, nothing else!
    Hell in, Nascar or Indy or many others, the 2nd driver will even play blocker to make sure they win the ultimate prize, is F1 better than this, well no, they can’t even get the coverage right, watching Hamilton come out of the pits when the lead of the race was at stake, no replays of multiple incidents! PATHETIC!
    F1 in the last 3 races has egg on its face in a big way, not impressed at all, actually quite bored of this nonsense! Bring on Laguna Seca tonight and Montoya winning the Brickyard, where the racing as pure and on the track!

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  223. Howard F says:

    Just read Ferrari have been given a $100,000 fine…. so just a slap on the wrist then! Once again the credibility of the sport goes right out of the window. How long are we supposed to put up with this nonsense? At the very least the team points for the race should have been taken off them. I look forward to any comments from Jon Todt….doubt we’ll get any though.