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Five place grid drop for Button and others in Suzuka
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Five place grid drop for Button and others in Suzuka
Posted By: James Allen  |  03 Oct 2009   |  11:33 am GMT  |  60 comments

The stewards have made a decision on the drivers who failed to observe the yellow flags during qualifying in Suzuka today.

We have just been told that there is to be a five place drop on the grid for Jenson Button, Rubens Barrichello, Fernando Alonso, Adrian Sutil and Sebastien Buemi.

In an unrelated matter, it seems that Heikki Kovalainen may have to move back five places also due to the need to change gearbox after an accident.

Button and Barrichello are due to speak shortly.

Ross Brawn confirmed that neither lifted for the yellow flags which were put out to warn drivers of debris on the track following Buemi’s accident with the wall on the back straight.

From Button’s point of view although it means Sebastian Vettel is likely to reduce his points gap to him tomorrow, his main title rival, Rubens Barrichello will still be only two places ahead on the grid.

Barrichello lies 15 points behind with tomorrow’s race and two others to go.

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60 Comments
  1. ali okan yılmaz says:

    good news for niki and kimi

  2. Peter Phelps says:

    Well that should spice things up a little. As there seems to be an issue with cars being able to stay on the circuit (a ride height issue, maybe?) I wonder how many times the safety car will put in an appearance? My money is on two safety cars and someone on a lucky strategy from halfway down the grid taking the chequered flag.

    1. rpaco says:

      I raise you 1 safety car, and a complete stoppage; race will be in two halves with aggregated times.

      Any bets who will cause the red flag?

      1. AlexD says:

        Nelson Piquet???

  3. George says:

    They had to do this really, if anything they got away pretty light with it. Should be an interesting race :D

  4. Leslie says:

    A cynic might say that the stewards decisions keep the world championships alive for at least one more race….but F1 is dead straight. Isn’t it?

    1. Ged says:

      @ Leslie.

      Last week Nico received a penalty for breaking the pit line rules & vettel a penalty for pit speed rules…. even though it’s been proven he didn’t exceed the allowed speed.
      Ross Brawn has said neither driver slowed down for the yellow flag. It’s as blatant an infringement as any other this season.

    2. In all fairness Leslie, these penalties were straight up and obvious

    3. rpaco says:

      As a corkscrew!

    4. shaun says:

      It was a disaster for qualy. People scrubbing tyres for no reason. Great laps aborted. Fuel startegies fubar’ed. JB and RB were on their only fast lap!

      Fuel will not be an issue for next season but it makes me wonder if drivers who were on track shouls be awarded an extra lap after the session closes. Lots of people lost out thru the action of others.

      Feel a bit sorry for fernando who was complaining that other drivers had not lifted so should be penalised :-P

    5. F1 Kitteh says:

      and to give Toyota a chance to win their home race + sub in the Japanese driver =)

    6. Luciano says:

      A realist might say the penalties are absolutely correct! Regardless of championship implications.

  5. Steve G says:

    The teams and drivers will probably be fairly pragmatic about this, as if they had lifted they wouldn’t have been able to set a time at all and would have been outside the top ten anyway.

    This isn’t just a case of the drivers ignoring the rules. Rather it was a situation created by the rules themselves.

    1. Brace says:

      totally agree!

  6. Neil Williams says:

    Even in my sleep-deprived state of mind early this morning, it was obvious certainly Button and ‘Chello would get penalties for not lifting. It isn’t up to the driver in those circumstances to decide if they can avoid the danger. The yellow means slow down and be prepared to stop – at 150+ mph that takes some time to do. The crest there is blind and had Jaime suddenly lost control of his damaged car and slewed across the track he’d have been t-boned with dire consequences. I am a Button fan but this time the stewards are right to act IMHO.

  7. Nullius says:

    I agree with Leslie, above.

    We really need more transparency in F1. All the shady deals and secrecy are beginning to look rather shabby. And this sort of thing, where the stewards appear to rig things, only lends strength to the claim that F1 is little more than a commercial circus.

    So, FIA and FOM, is F1 the motorized equivalent of professional wrestling, or a real sport?

  8. shpalman says:

    Alonso will be annoyed, he said he lifted.

    1. Cabby says:

      I read this on the official f1-website, quite a different story…

      “Alonso’s excuse that he was blinded by Buemi’s dust and therefore didn’t see the yellow flags cut no mustard with the stewards.”

      1. shpalman says:

        That wasn’t Buemi’s dust, then, it was the smoke from Alonso’s pants being on fire again.

  9. Julian says:

    So does that mean our grid tomorrow looks like this? (If Kovi and Glock get their penalties too)

    1. Vettel
    2. Trulli
    3. Hamilton
    4. Heidfeld
    5. Raikkonen
    6. Rosberg
    7. Kubica
    8. Alguesuari
    9. Sutil
    10. Barrichello
    11. Fisichella
    12. Button
    13. Nakajima
    14. Kovalainen
    15. Buemi
    16. Grosjean
    17. Alonso
    18. Webber
    19. Glock
    20. Liuzzi

    Notice Alguesuari being a major benefactor of this!

    1. Joel Heaton says:

      I tried to post this before, but it didn’t seem to come through:

      Vettel
      Trulli
      Hamilton
      Heidfeld
      Raikkonen
      Rosberg
      Kubica
      Sutil
      Barrichello
      Kovalainen
      Button
      Alguersuari
      Buemi
      Fisichella
      Alonso
      Nakajima
      Grosjean
      Webber
      Glock
      Liuzzi

      Based on the times at which each driver carried out the things that got them penalties (which is how the stewards are supposedly going to hand out the penalties) then this is how the grid will look. I applied the penalties in this order: Buemi, Alonso, Button, Barrichello, Sutil, Kovalainen, Glock.

  10. LeighJW says:

    The penalties were deserved by the Brawns but I thought I saw Alonso clearly slow down.

    Regarding next year, Kova is toast!

    I foresee a big win for Vettel with only a few, if any, points for the Brawns.

    But for what it is worth…. Go Jenson!

  11. Kakashi says:

    Hi James,
    y was Alonso given the penalty?
    From Autosport:

    “I’m sure tomorrow I’ll start a lot higher than 12th,”

    “I avoided the front wing in the middle of the track and I lifted and I came into the pits and we didn’t make it to Q3. I think some people improved their laps but that’s the way it is.”
    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/79170
    Thanks

    1. Joel Heaton says:

      The stewards determined that Alonso did actually slow down, but not until after he had passed the incident.

  12. Nash says:

    Is the decision on Alonso not strange? He came right after qualifying on Spanish TV to claim that he had lifted and others not and therefore he was waiting for an interesting stewards meeting.

    And hearing him being interviewed..I believed him.

    Or was this smart Alonso using the media to yell: catch the thief! catch the thief!

    1. Nikki says:

      I think some of the quote got missed, because a couple of other places seem to be reporting that he said something along the lines of ‘I lifted, but unfortunately not quickly enough’.

      The whole session was such a mess that I can’t even decide whether I think the penalties are just or not. I have therefore given up!

    2. " for sure " says:

      I guess that will be the same Alonso that knew nothing about crashgate?

  13. DAN says:

    Not too bad for Jenson as Ruby is really his main threat. Even if Seb wins this one as long as Ruby does not score big points Jenson is still sitting pretty for the title. On paper Rubens is the main loser here but who knows with an eventful race he can score some good points. It will be interesting to see what Nick and Kimi can do against Seb Lewis and Jarno.

    James, thanks for answering my question re: Taku in one of the previous posts. He confirmed to Reuter that he was indeed hunting for a drive.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idINIndia-42881020091003?sp=true

    I spotted Ralf on another photo from Suzuka on formula1.com.
    Is he too contemplating a come back? He is very experienced so would be a big help for one of the new teams so why not ?

    Off topics question for you: Are folks from the paddock following your blog and if so what are they making of it?
    And of course are they any famous guys among the followers (ie:David Coulthard or Martin Brundle)?

    Finally you were wondering why so may finns are reading the blog. I guess it has to do with your surname, they think you are one of them :-)

    1. shaun says:

      Hi Dan,

      After hearing Mike Gascoigne say he had been talking to drivers with a lot of experience Ralf came to mind. Personally, I hope not, but if I had a pound I’d put him at Lotus next year. Only thing stopping me is MG strikes me as a sensible person.

    2. Realyn says:

      About Ralf: He´s only a stand in for Nikki Lauda at German Television.

  14. Cabby says:

    Generally I expected Fisi to do better, maybe this puts Badoers “achievements” in a different perspective, the Ferrari seems to be difficult to drive, or is Kimi that good?

    1. Peter says:

      Ferrari is difficult to drive and we see now, how good just Kimi is.

  15. john says:

    Why Fernando Alonso?
    He said on interviews that he had slowed down on yellow flag and could not improve his lap time which is why he missed qualification to Q3.

  16. Steph says:

    There should be a fairer procedure in place to counter the time lost when laps are abandoned in red flag scenarios. Last week at Singapore the final session was stopped after Barrichello crashed, and nobody could make use of the remaining 26 seconds. As we saw today, drivers felt compelled to take risks in order to set their only times.

    Perhaps the clock could start ticking again only once the first of the runners starts a timed lap?

    1. monktonnik says:

      sounds like a good idea.

      Perhaps they should add “stoppage time” to qualifying.

  17. rpaco says:

    Not a big enough penalty for Buemi. He should have been black flagged and disqualified.

  18. Med says:

    Hmmm, that was a nice, confusing end to what’s probably the messiest qualifying I’ve ever seen.

    Perhaps they should add the amount of time for an out-lap back on to the session after a red flag, so those that are out on flying laps can at least get that shot back in.

    I was miffed about how last weekend’s qualy ended in a red flag, with 28 secs or something on the clock and no chance to see if Vettel or Rosberg would clinch the top spot, but today was just a total joke

  19. ati says:

    Suppose the next 2 races, Button scores no points and Vettel gets both wins. 5 points difference in last race.

    Yes, please.

  20. Race1 says:

    Alonso gets a penalty? He didnt even complete that lap!

  21. Marcello says:

    Ah there we go again, I see the hands of you know all over this, trying to prolong Jensen agony? Not really my favorite driver on the grid, but I really hope he wins it tomorrow, you’ve got to admire the fact that when given the opportunity at the beginning of the season he took it, while the Red bulls were making all sorts of silly mistakes. I actually believe Jensen has been one of the most consistent driver through out the season bared the shunt with Lewis in Belgium. Good luck to him he deserves it.

  22. john g says:

    do you know how they are going to apply the penalties? if they do them sequentially, in order, you get a different result to if you do them all together…

  23. monktonnik says:

    Brawn really do have an issue with set up and qualifying at the moment. This trick of leaving late and having 1 timed run has cost Button a decent crack at a good starting position for the second race running. The Brawn isn’t strong here, but you have to question an approach that makes them this vulnerable to incidents. Surely from a risk management point of view it is clearly not paying off.

    Still, as long as JB gets some points tomorrow, it is all good.

  24. Bill says:

    James, I’m not sure if you’re going to make a separate post, but it would be great to see a corrected starting grid and fuel weights list.

  25. Med says:

    Good news for Rosberg and Kubica – they’ve been bumped up into top 8 grid positions with 20kg extra fuel than the others – they could be in for a good race tomorrow

  26. Thomas says:

    Is there a rule that you have to lift your arm to show that you respect the yellows? Because Alonso talked quite a bit about him lifting off and expecting others to get penalised, but got penalised himself. On the other hand it seems Nick got off the hook because he lifted his arm?

    Also the Brawn guys didnt improve, so it seems the rule about not gaining time is not consistent?

    1. Ahmad Albashrawi says:

      I think Alonso was found to slow down AFTER the yellow flag area. This was obtained by studying his telemetry data.

      http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=47087

      “… while Alonso only backed off only after passing the hazard …”.

      Nice try Nando ;)

  27. BAR4ever says:

    I don’t understand why Barrichello and Button took part in Q3? I was under the impression that the disqualification of their fastest time (in Q2) was the correct punishment for setting a faster time under yellows? This would have meant they – effectively – set no valid time in Q2 and should be starting something like 14th and 15th.

    The implemented interpretation of the rules appears to have disproportionately punished Alonso, who had an existing valid time and backed-off (albeit late) and aborted the lap, against Barrichello and Button who – openly admitted – had no intention of obeying the flags.

    1. Chuck says:

      I agree. While I believe that the purpose of the yellow flag is not “avoid making a great laptime” but “be careful in this sector”, and the Stewards have decided that Alonso did not lift enough (if anything) in the yellow flagged sector, I would have penalised Button and Barrichello a bit further.

      Actually, what the Stewards (or the Reglament) are saying is: “we will punish you with 5 grid positions, but race like hell and perhaps you can even get into Q3″.

      No lap time should be considered if the racer has to drive through a yellow flagged sector. Perhaps a rules change is in order. And it is for security!

    2. monktonnik says:

      A really valid point. Perhaps this is why there is no grid as yet.

      I think you are probably right.

    3. KK says:

      BAR4ever :Ah, I was going to post exactly the same, so thanks for saving me time and effort.

      Monktonnik, the revised grid is out. The penalties have been applied on the grid positions and not on the qualifying times itself. In any case, such a judgement would be hard unless the case was heard before Q3. Meaning if they penalised JB & RB by taking away their Q2 times, you cannot the restore the Q3 opportunity to the drivers who missed it , in this case, Rosberg & Kubica.

  28. Peter says:

    It is going to be interesting to see what Kimi and Lewis will be able to do with KERS at the start.

  29. Explosiva says:

    James, do you think quali rules should again be revisited after an incident like today’s? I’m not too keen on the rules, but what happens if the 5 drivers had slowed down so much and weren’t able to get a flying lap in? I’d assume they won’t get through to quali 3, but that seems incredibly unfair and downright stupid. 2 red flags and a yellow…some drivers would not have been able to get a flying lap in due to no fault of their own. Should the rules be changed for contingencies like these?

    1. James Allen says:

      How would you change them?

  30. ChrisS says:

    Does anyone know why Brawn kept leaving it so late to send their drivers out, when it was quite predictable that there’d be further incidents?

    1. James Allen says:

      Because they only had one set of soft tyres, they were only good for one lap and the track was going to be at its best at the end of the session

  31. Phil says:

    If Jenson had lifted and set a slow time would he have been ahead of a penalised Barry despite not getting into Q3?

  32. Peter W says:

    Have to agree with those saying that alonso appears to have bee harshly treated.

    He did lift (albeit late), didnt complete the lap and therefore got no benefit from it.

    Yet he gets the same penalty as Buemi who caused most of the chaos by driving his clearly far too battered torro rosso back to the pits.

    He also gets the same penalty as the brawns who got their one and only time from driving straight through the yellow flags flat out with no lifting at all.

    I feel this has something to do with his comments backing flav the other week…

  33. Harveyeight says:

    I have no sympathy for any of the drivers who didn’t lift, or lifted too late. As has been said, but I think needs repeating, at least in the hearing of drivers, the decision whether to slow is not theirs to make.

    Double waved yellows requires more than just a perfunctory lift, it means be ready to stop if necessary. We’ve had enough marshalls injured and killed.

    I have always thought that F1 is a sport and the stewards should consider the spectacle. But in this case there is no leeway. I think just five grid slots, the same as changing a gearbox I believe, is very light, especially as so many ignored them.

    Alonso’s backing off late is not backing off at all.

    Shame that it might affect the racing but it is a sacrifice I am prepared to make.

  34. Tonksy says:

    Should Buemi be counting his lucky stars today? I was expecting him to be starting from the pitlane behind Webbs after causing the whole fracas in the first place

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