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> <channel><title>Comments on: When some engines are more equal than others..</title> <atom:link href="http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/</link> <description>Formula 1 / F1</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 09:07:38 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator> <item><title>By: Dave</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21557</link> <dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:36:21 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21557</guid> <description>Because the manufactures can hide their development in their car companies. Who is to say how much that technology is worth if, say, Toyota CO. sells that advancement to ToyotaF1.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because the manufactures can hide their development in their car companies. Who is to say how much that technology is worth if, say, Toyota CO. sells that advancement to ToyotaF1.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dave</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21555</link> <dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:32:39 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21555</guid> <description>I agree. As long as the reference checks are made on fresh engines running full noise for, say 30 minutes, even the Renault will survive. Turning down the Merc doesn&#039;t make the Renault more reliable. Good point rpaco.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. As long as the reference checks are made on fresh engines running full noise for, say 30 minutes, even the Renault will survive. Turning down the Merc doesn&#8217;t make the Renault more reliable. Good point rpaco.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Dave</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21554</link> <dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:29:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21554</guid> <description>&quot;...Having a grid full of your engines is surly worth more in publicity and advertising then having your works team run around in third/fourth place?...&quot;No, in the same way that noone cares about Honda engines that power IRL/CART. If there is no competition, it might as well be an unmarked engine. Ferrari will not make money on their A1GP deal beyond the cost teams pay to buy them. In that situation, Ferrari only has to design and maintain a single engine spec, so they don&#039;t have the development/upkeep costs to account for.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;Having a grid full of your engines is surly worth more in publicity and advertising then having your works team run around in third/fourth place?&#8230;&#8221;</p><p>No, in the same way that noone cares about Honda engines that power IRL/CART. If there is no competition, it might as well be an unmarked engine. Ferrari will not make money on their A1GP deal beyond the cost teams pay to buy them. In that situation, Ferrari only has to design and maintain a single engine spec, so they don&#8217;t have the development/upkeep costs to account for.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Paul Kirk</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21551</link> <dc:creator>Paul Kirk</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:24:14 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21551</guid> <description>Giday Martin,  If you limit the volume of fuel, &amp; the amount of air that can be injested by the engine----on second thoughts, you wouldn&#039;t have to govern the air because you can only operate within a narrow air/fuel ratio anyway-----then inovative engine builders and tuners would be searching for maximum economy/eficiency!  With more lieniency on engine design other than what I suggested above, it would interesting to see what eventuated!  But this conversation is pointless untill things change in a couple of year&#039;s time.  I&#039;ll throw another cat amongst the pigeons by recomending they use methanol/ethanol instead of petrol!!  Oh yeah, bring on Ari Vatinen!!!
Regards&#039;
P.K.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giday Martin,  If you limit the volume of fuel, &amp; the amount of air that can be injested by the engine&#8212;-on second thoughts, you wouldn&#8217;t have to govern the air because you can only operate within a narrow air/fuel ratio anyway&#8212;&#8211;then inovative engine builders and tuners would be searching for maximum economy/eficiency!  With more lieniency on engine design other than what I suggested above, it would interesting to see what eventuated!  But this conversation is pointless untill things change in a couple of year&#8217;s time.  I&#8217;ll throw another cat amongst the pigeons by recomending they use methanol/ethanol instead of petrol!!  Oh yeah, bring on Ari Vatinen!!!<br
/> Regards&#8217;<br
/> P.K.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: links for 2009-09-23 &#171; vee8 - Formula 1 and motorsport news roundups and opinion</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21432</link> <dc:creator>links for 2009-09-23 &#171; vee8 - Formula 1 and motorsport news roundups and opinion</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:11:10 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21432</guid> <description>[...] When some engines are more equal than others..- James Allen on F1 &quot;First FOTA has well and truly made its mark on F1, through the breakaway threat, and the teams were effectively allowed to come up with their own rules package, following the meeting after Silverstone at which the breakaway and the budget cap were shelved. [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] When some engines are more equal than others..- James Allen on F1 &quot;First FOTA has well and truly made its mark on F1, through the breakaway threat, and the teams were effectively allowed to come up with their own rules package, following the meeting after Silverstone at which the breakaway and the budget cap were shelved. [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Martin</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21394</link> <dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:22:20 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21394</guid> <description>Paul,How about just fixing the amount of fuel the cars can use and then fixing the price of customer engines over a season.The airbox exists to achieve what is known as volumetric efficiency, it is not about getting higher pressure air into the cylinders as some motorbikes do.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,</p><p>How about just fixing the amount of fuel the cars can use and then fixing the price of customer engines over a season.</p><p>The airbox exists to achieve what is known as volumetric efficiency, it is not about getting higher pressure air into the cylinders as some motorbikes do.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Martin</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21391</link> <dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 14:15:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21391</guid> <description>Arya,Your physics is a bit out. Power is a derived quantity - it doesn&#039;t exist and hence cannot be measured directly (this is probably surprising to you).The combustion of the fuel generates pressure on the piston, which is a force. The crankshaft turns this into a rotation force, i.e. torque. To calculate the power from the torque value you just need the angular velocity in radians per second.Being in Australia I work in metric, so I&#039;ll use it as an example. If we assume that an F1 engine produces a maximum torque of 300 Nm then to calculate the power you multiply 300 by the rpm, divide by 60 to convert to seconds rather than minutes and then multiply by 2 x Pi to get radians. Therefore if maximum torque is at 16000 rpm then the power at 16000 rpm is 502 kW (674 hp). To get 750 hp at 18000 rpm the engine needs to produce 297 Nm at 18000 rpm.Power is important in terms of overcoming aerodynamic drag. To double a car&#039;s top speed you&#039;d need eight times the power. The benefit of KERS, if only used for top speed (which it isn&#039;t) would give a 3.5 per cent increase in top speed.So to get back to your question about the advantage the Mercedes-Benz engine has, to have more power it must produce more torque at the point of maximum power. The torque across the working range of the engine is what determines the acceleration for a fixed weight, gearing, aerodynamic drag and tyre rolling resistance.According to Autocourse a couple of years ago, a key problem with the Renault compared to the best engines was that it lacked lower-rpm torque. The maximum power was okay so the top speed was reasonable, but the acceleration was always behind.Power gets quoted because people think they understand it when, in most cases, largely they don&#039;t. A Sydney newspaper like calling torque &#039;pulling power&#039;.A final thing on engines: for a fixed engine capacity, long stroke designs do not help the production of torque, despite what is commonly stated in magazines by journalists. The piston area and the stroke multiply together to give the engine capacity and these cancel each other out in the production of torque. Long-stroke designs inhibit power as the internal friction limits the maximum rpm. Therefore the engines with long strokes are often tuned to produce more torque.Hope this helps your understanding of engines.Cheers,Martin</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arya,</p><p>Your physics is a bit out. Power is a derived quantity &#8211; it doesn&#8217;t exist and hence cannot be measured directly (this is probably surprising to you).</p><p>The combustion of the fuel generates pressure on the piston, which is a force. The crankshaft turns this into a rotation force, i.e. torque. To calculate the power from the torque value you just need the angular velocity in radians per second.</p><p>Being in Australia I work in metric, so I&#8217;ll use it as an example. If we assume that an F1 engine produces a maximum torque of 300 Nm then to calculate the power you multiply 300 by the rpm, divide by 60 to convert to seconds rather than minutes and then multiply by 2 x Pi to get radians. Therefore if maximum torque is at 16000 rpm then the power at 16000 rpm is 502 kW (674 hp). To get 750 hp at 18000 rpm the engine needs to produce 297 Nm at 18000 rpm.</p><p>Power is important in terms of overcoming aerodynamic drag. To double a car&#8217;s top speed you&#8217;d need eight times the power. The benefit of KERS, if only used for top speed (which it isn&#8217;t) would give a 3.5 per cent increase in top speed.</p><p>So to get back to your question about the advantage the Mercedes-Benz engine has, to have more power it must produce more torque at the point of maximum power. The torque across the working range of the engine is what determines the acceleration for a fixed weight, gearing, aerodynamic drag and tyre rolling resistance.</p><p>According to Autocourse a couple of years ago, a key problem with the Renault compared to the best engines was that it lacked lower-rpm torque. The maximum power was okay so the top speed was reasonable, but the acceleration was always behind.</p><p>Power gets quoted because people think they understand it when, in most cases, largely they don&#8217;t. A Sydney newspaper like calling torque &#8216;pulling power&#8217;.</p><p>A final thing on engines: for a fixed engine capacity, long stroke designs do not help the production of torque, despite what is commonly stated in magazines by journalists. The piston area and the stroke multiply together to give the engine capacity and these cancel each other out in the production of torque. Long-stroke designs inhibit power as the internal friction limits the maximum rpm. Therefore the engines with long strokes are often tuned to produce more torque.</p><p>Hope this helps your understanding of engines.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Martin</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Brace</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21384</link> <dc:creator>Brace</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:50:21 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21384</guid> <description>Mosley can&#039;t leave too soon.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mosley can&#8217;t leave too soon.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Paul</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21368</link> <dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:04:09 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21368</guid> <description>So in future if Cosworth lost contracts they could just pull the plug? And leave 1 or 2 teams looking for a new engine.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So in future if Cosworth lost contracts they could just pull the plug? And leave 1 or 2 teams looking for a new engine.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nicollers</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/09/when-some-engines-are-more-equal-than-others/comment-page-1/#comment-21349</link> <dc:creator>Nicollers</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:52:03 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=3606#comment-21349</guid> <description>When they cranked the BMW engine up a few revs at Monza, both cars blew up! Granted Monza is an extreme flat out test of any engine, but still, it highlights the fact that the majority of teams can&#039;t crank their engines to full volume for fear of not finishing the race. Those that can, should be able to do so and get a pat on the back for it.That said, F1 is all about different constructors. It can&#039;t be like A1GP where all the engines are the same. Whilst this would sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of who&#039;s the best driver, teams wouldn&#039;t be teams anymore....</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When they cranked the BMW engine up a few revs at Monza, both cars blew up! Granted Monza is an extreme flat out test of any engine, but still, it highlights the fact that the majority of teams can&#8217;t crank their engines to full volume for fear of not finishing the race. Those that can, should be able to do so and get a pat on the back for it.</p><p>That said, F1 is all about different constructors. It can&#8217;t be like A1GP where all the engines are the same. Whilst this would sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of who&#8217;s the best driver, teams wouldn&#8217;t be teams anymore&#8230;.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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