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> <channel><title>Comments on: Massa out of GP but lucky to be alive</title> <atom:link href="http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/</link> <description>Formula 1 / F1</description> <lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:03:15 +0000</lastBuildDate> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <item><title>By: rpaco</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-14140</link> <dc:creator>rpaco</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:48:05 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-14140</guid> <description>Yes, agree, we do not want another McLaren type persecution, oops prosecution! Like after Senna&#039;s accident, which dragged on and on in the courts in Italy.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, agree, we do not want another McLaren type persecution, oops prosecution! Like after Senna&#8217;s accident, which dragged on and on in the courts in Italy.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chris</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-14004</link> <dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:38:19 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-14004</guid> <description>rPaco.I agree with your comments. I didn&#039;t mean to come across like a local council... perhaps a senate committe meeting? ;-)I think we are all agreed that racing under a litigious climate, such as is present in Italy would be unworkable. Hopefully the investigation into the accident will shore up the safety features to an even greater extent.A reduction as much as humanly possible of these horrible events is all we are after.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rPaco.</p><p>I agree with your comments. I didn&#8217;t mean to come across like a local council&#8230; perhaps a senate committe meeting? <img
src='http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p><p>I think we are all agreed that racing under a litigious climate, such as is present in Italy would be unworkable. Hopefully the investigation into the accident will shore up the safety features to an even greater extent.</p><p>A reduction as much as humanly possible of these horrible events is all we are after.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: rpaco</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13877</link> <dc:creator>rpaco</dc:creator> <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:05:38 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13877</guid> <description>Yes you are quite right in some respects. The maths are interesting, the spring hitting the track at speed receives energy as an impact (force x time) into the spring, effectively partially compressing it, the spring&#039;s own weight then becomes a factor as the heavier the spring the more energy will be imparted, but his will be cancelled out on the release because of the higher inertia of the spring.
The impact on the track is unlikely to have slowed the movement of the spring along the track by very much since the friction of such an impact would be applied for a fraction of a second. True it is not an aerodynamic shape and would be slowed by the air resistance, but this same factor would increase the influence of the updraught.
Whilst one cannot argue that there is a huge updraught behind the car, the double diffuser greatly increases the updraught in the centre immediately behind the engine/gearbox assy. The Rear wing creates a negative pressure behind the car which the flow from the rear diffuser fills, hopefully far enough behind the car not to affect the rear wing.
Having not been privy to the wind tunnel data I could of course be talking total bollocks.&quot;The real question is – how can an object weighing almost 1kg have made its way off the mechanism of the car and out of the back into the path of a following car.&quot; Here  the mass of the object is irrelevant, if it breaks, it either falls off or is retained by being secured at the other unbroken end. The spring end cones normally retain the spring by an interference fit when at rest. But under compression the spring tends to unwind and lessen it&#039;s grip on the end cones,In the brawn design if either crank pivot had broken this would have freed the spring at that end, the continuing movement of the crank still attached, would shake it violently until it fell off.You can only test a crank pin&#039;s breaking point by breaking it, ok you can xray and ultrasound it, but I doubt that is done to turned parts I would guess it is reserved for cast parts only.BUT as I said in another thread you can&#039;t FMEA the whole car to an infinite level; or you would end up with armour plated boxes with just the wheels sticking out, totally enclosed cockpits bulletproof runflat tyres and airbags, lots of airbags. On the slightest impapct the whole car turns into a bouncy castle.It was a fluke, we must not act like a local council health and safety officer eager to prevent themselves being sued for all known hazards to anybody even though there is no risk record . Or we will end up not only with all our local fêtes and carnivals banned but with all motor racing banned as well in this our free country.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes you are quite right in some respects. The maths are interesting, the spring hitting the track at speed receives energy as an impact (force x time) into the spring, effectively partially compressing it, the spring&#8217;s own weight then becomes a factor as the heavier the spring the more energy will be imparted, but his will be cancelled out on the release because of the higher inertia of the spring.<br
/> The impact on the track is unlikely to have slowed the movement of the spring along the track by very much since the friction of such an impact would be applied for a fraction of a second. True it is not an aerodynamic shape and would be slowed by the air resistance, but this same factor would increase the influence of the updraught.<br
/> Whilst one cannot argue that there is a huge updraught behind the car, the double diffuser greatly increases the updraught in the centre immediately behind the engine/gearbox assy. The Rear wing creates a negative pressure behind the car which the flow from the rear diffuser fills, hopefully far enough behind the car not to affect the rear wing.<br
/> Having not been privy to the wind tunnel data I could of course be talking total bollocks.</p><p>&#8220;The real question is – how can an object weighing almost 1kg have made its way off the mechanism of the car and out of the back into the path of a following car.&#8221; Here  the mass of the object is irrelevant, if it breaks, it either falls off or is retained by being secured at the other unbroken end. The spring end cones normally retain the spring by an interference fit when at rest. But under compression the spring tends to unwind and lessen it&#8217;s grip on the end cones,</p><p>In the brawn design if either crank pivot had broken this would have freed the spring at that end, the continuing movement of the crank still attached, would shake it violently until it fell off.</p><p>You can only test a crank pin&#8217;s breaking point by breaking it, ok you can xray and ultrasound it, but I doubt that is done to turned parts I would guess it is reserved for cast parts only.</p><p>BUT as I said in another thread you can&#8217;t FMEA the whole car to an infinite level; or you would end up with armour plated boxes with just the wheels sticking out, totally enclosed cockpits bulletproof runflat tyres and airbags, lots of airbags. On the slightest impapct the whole car turns into a bouncy castle.</p><p>It was a fluke, we must not act like a local council health and safety officer eager to prevent themselves being sued for all known hazards to anybody even though there is no risk record . Or we will end up not only with all our local fêtes and carnivals banned but with all motor racing banned as well in this our free country.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chris</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13775</link> <dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:21:37 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13775</guid> <description>Buttoneer.Absolutely. Raikkonen should have been black flagged. I watched that race with disbelief.The Stewards normally do an absolutely fantastic job on race weekends, but in this case, their decision to leave the exhaust flapping around, waiting to come off and cause serious damage or injury, was a dangerous joke.It needn&#039;t have hit another driver physically - running over it would have likely caused damage and possibly a crash.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buttoneer.</p><p>Absolutely. Raikkonen should have been black flagged. I watched that race with disbelief.</p><p>The Stewards normally do an absolutely fantastic job on race weekends, but in this case, their decision to leave the exhaust flapping around, waiting to come off and cause serious damage or injury, was a dangerous joke.</p><p>It needn&#8217;t have hit another driver physically &#8211; running over it would have likely caused damage and possibly a crash.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chris</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13774</link> <dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator> <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 17:18:36 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13774</guid> <description>rpacoIf you look at the airflow of an F1 car - you can see, particularly visible in the wet - that a massive updraft of air is created in its wake. These massive &#039;rooster tails&#039; of air currents would have projected the spring regardless of the novel system of rear diffuser that Brawn currently use.Let&#039;s not forget that the ground beneath Rubens Barrichello&#039;s Brawn car was moving at circa 100 miles per hour at the time the spring came off.The effect on a spring from the rapid movement of the ground  from *any* car travelling at this speed would translate that kinetic energy into the spring (which, after all, is designed for storing and re-translating kinetic energy) with ease.I think the Brawn diffusers can be considered to be almost irrelevant to the situation.The real question is - how can an object weighing almost 1kg have made its way off the mechanism of the car and out of the back into the path of a following car. Was the failure due to structural loading on a material with inherent flaws, or were the build standards not adhered to when putting this section of the car together for the race?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rpaco</p><p>If you look at the airflow of an F1 car &#8211; you can see, particularly visible in the wet &#8211; that a massive updraft of air is created in its wake. These massive &#8216;rooster tails&#8217; of air currents would have projected the spring regardless of the novel system of rear diffuser that Brawn currently use.</p><p>Let&#8217;s not forget that the ground beneath Rubens Barrichello&#8217;s Brawn car was moving at circa 100 miles per hour at the time the spring came off.</p><p>The effect on a spring from the rapid movement of the ground  from *any* car travelling at this speed would translate that kinetic energy into the spring (which, after all, is designed for storing and re-translating kinetic energy) with ease.</p><p>I think the Brawn diffusers can be considered to be almost irrelevant to the situation.</p><p>The real question is &#8211; how can an object weighing almost 1kg have made its way off the mechanism of the car and out of the back into the path of a following car. Was the failure due to structural loading on a material with inherent flaws, or were the build standards not adhered to when putting this section of the car together for the race?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: rpaco</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13673</link> <dc:creator>rpaco</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 15:02:25 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13673</guid> <description>Watching the bbc footage frame by frame from Massa&#039;s car again, I see now that the spring was indeed bouncing, whereas at the time it looked like it went under the front left wheel and was thrown upwards.I am wondering if the infamous Brawn rear diffuser, played a major part in this, blowing the spring higher in the air.If the spring &quot;dropped&quot; from Ruben&#039;s car it would take less than a second to hit the ground, if it merely &quot;fell&quot;; so it must have been propelled  either up or down to still be airborne some 4 seconds later.I suspect it was ejected with considerable force and after bouncing off the inside of the body and possibly the rear wing it then finally bounced off the track. The timing must indicate that it bounced several times before being released on to the track. OR it was thrown into a high arc, some other spectator videos could verify if this was the case, although the fact that it remained in the same path along the track would lessen the chance of this. (&quot;It&#039;s the time loss factor Scully&quot; as Mulder would say)</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Watching the bbc footage frame by frame from Massa&#8217;s car again, I see now that the spring was indeed bouncing, whereas at the time it looked like it went under the front left wheel and was thrown upwards.</p><p>I am wondering if the infamous Brawn rear diffuser, played a major part in this, blowing the spring higher in the air.</p><p>If the spring &#8220;dropped&#8221; from Ruben&#8217;s car it would take less than a second to hit the ground, if it merely &#8220;fell&#8221;; so it must have been propelled  either up or down to still be airborne some 4 seconds later.</p><p>I suspect it was ejected with considerable force and after bouncing off the inside of the body and possibly the rear wing it then finally bounced off the track. The timing must indicate that it bounced several times before being released on to the track. OR it was thrown into a high arc, some other spectator videos could verify if this was the case, although the fact that it remained in the same path along the track would lessen the chance of this. (&#8220;It&#8217;s the time loss factor Scully&#8221; as Mulder would say)</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Chris</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13589</link> <dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:03:51 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13589</guid> <description>I&#039;m still reeling from the shock at what has happened to Felipe Massa. It was a terrible incident, and all our thoughts are with him and his family right now, and we wish him a speedy and full recovery.It is very uncomfortable viewing, but I have yet to see a full and credible description of what happened during his horrible incident. The footage clearly shows the spring hit his helmet just as he returned his head to face forwards after looking in the right mirror. Judging from his quickly weakened grip on the steering wheel and the decelerating engine note, this rendered him almost instantly unconscious. I believe that relaxed legs in a Formula 1 cockpit would leave the feet resting quite firmly on the throttle and the brake pedals (though not 100%) and this seems to be what happened as the footage shows he was both braking (the front wheels were skidding, but not locked) and applying throttle (the engine revs reduce somewhat before impact due to braking, but remain high after impact).His lack of consciousness at impact seems to have contributed to the reported basal skull fracture to happen (a very serious injury - poor Felipe was very, very lucky to escape this) as he would not have braced his neck muscles for impact. I&#039;m not sure what part the HANS device played (it is designed to minimise this type of cranial-extensional injury) but surely the FIA will need to look again at the efficacy of this device in the inquiry.Finally, the graphic image of the helmet shot above illustrates the sheer force of the spring which collapsed the helmet around Felipe&#039;s left eye socket, and the massive force of impact of the 800g spring was able to fracture the fragile bones in this area.I echo the sentiments of a previous poster who stated how much safer the sport is, and we all know that F1 will never be 100% safe, but let&#039;s hope a solution to errant track debris can be found.We all hope to see you racing again very soon, Felipe.Best regards.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still reeling from the shock at what has happened to Felipe Massa. It was a terrible incident, and all our thoughts are with him and his family right now, and we wish him a speedy and full recovery.</p><p>It is very uncomfortable viewing, but I have yet to see a full and credible description of what happened during his horrible incident. The footage clearly shows the spring hit his helmet just as he returned his head to face forwards after looking in the right mirror. Judging from his quickly weakened grip on the steering wheel and the decelerating engine note, this rendered him almost instantly unconscious. I believe that relaxed legs in a Formula 1 cockpit would leave the feet resting quite firmly on the throttle and the brake pedals (though not 100%) and this seems to be what happened as the footage shows he was both braking (the front wheels were skidding, but not locked) and applying throttle (the engine revs reduce somewhat before impact due to braking, but remain high after impact).</p><p>His lack of consciousness at impact seems to have contributed to the reported basal skull fracture to happen (a very serious injury &#8211; poor Felipe was very, very lucky to escape this) as he would not have braced his neck muscles for impact. I&#8217;m not sure what part the HANS device played (it is designed to minimise this type of cranial-extensional injury) but surely the FIA will need to look again at the efficacy of this device in the inquiry.</p><p>Finally, the graphic image of the helmet shot above illustrates the sheer force of the spring which collapsed the helmet around Felipe&#8217;s left eye socket, and the massive force of impact of the 800g spring was able to fracture the fragile bones in this area.</p><p>I echo the sentiments of a previous poster who stated how much safer the sport is, and we all know that F1 will never be 100% safe, but let&#8217;s hope a solution to errant track debris can be found.</p><p>We all hope to see you racing again very soon, Felipe.</p><p>Best regards.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Buttoneer</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13553</link> <dc:creator>Buttoneer</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:25:27 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13553</guid> <description>Does anyone else now agree that Raikkonen should have been black flagged for his loose exhaust at France last year?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone else now agree that Raikkonen should have been black flagged for his loose exhaust at France last year?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Bob Massey</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13491</link> <dc:creator>Bob Massey</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:08:41 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13491</guid> <description>I&#039;m as shocked as everybody else at this accident and my best wishes go out to Felipe Massa and his family.
However this incident and the image in this blog only reinforce my opinion that the media should not have access to cockpit images.
Had these visual feeds been available fifteen years ago then doubtless there would have been pictures available of Ayrton Senna at the moment of his death.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m as shocked as everybody else at this accident and my best wishes go out to Felipe Massa and his family.<br
/> However this incident and the image in this blog only reinforce my opinion that the media should not have access to cockpit images.<br
/> Had these visual feeds been available fifteen years ago then doubtless there would have been pictures available of Ayrton Senna at the moment of his death.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: The Limit</title><link>http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/07/massa-out-of-gp-but-lucky-to-be-alive/comment-page-1/#comment-13471</link> <dc:creator>The Limit</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 02:18:29 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/?p=2966#comment-13471</guid> <description>Its hard to say someone is &#039;lucky&#039; when you see the injuries to Felipe Massa&#039;s head, but he is very lucky to be alive.
I would be very surprised if Ferrari run him in a race this season, but they did just that ten years ago with Michael Schumacher so anything is possible.
Such a bizarre incident, coming so close to Henry Surtees being killed in simular circumstances. Poor old Rubens Barrichello must be feeling it, even though it was not his fault, for it to be someone he knows as well as Massa it must be tough.
Take 2009 off Felipe and get better, we&#039;ll ride with you in 2010 and see you win the title.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its hard to say someone is &#8216;lucky&#8217; when you see the injuries to Felipe Massa&#8217;s head, but he is very lucky to be alive.<br
/> I would be very surprised if Ferrari run him in a race this season, but they did just that ten years ago with Michael Schumacher so anything is possible.<br
/> Such a bizarre incident, coming so close to Henry Surtees being killed in simular circumstances. Poor old Rubens Barrichello must be feeling it, even though it was not his fault, for it to be someone he knows as well as Massa it must be tough.<br
/> Take 2009 off Felipe and get better, we&#8217;ll ride with you in 2010 and see you win the title.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
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